OBNurse Chelsey. At what point does the hospital take ownership for creating an environment in which nurses desire to quit immediately after a full length orientation?? Nursing is considered the most trusted profession year after year but we can't even give our colleagues the benefit of doubt that at least 95% of individuals do not have the intent to leave a workplace so soon. For God's sake, it's 16 to 20 weeks of training in what is considered to be a prestigious sought after specialty. I'm convinced that the profession of Nursing is truly comparable to an abusive relationship.
It was a neurosurgeon in Guam who set me straight about appropriate boundaries. I was working nearly every single day because without a CT Tech there is no emergency department. He said, "Not your problem, Catherine. " When a patient came in Friday evening with a knife lodged in his face between the bridge of his nose and his eyeball, and this Neurosurgeon refused to refused to come in because he had already worked Monday thru Friday, I saw how serious he was about this. They sedated the patient over the weekend and the knife was pulled out of the guy's face Monday morning. I haven't been the same since then. 😊 Don't sign these contracts!! What you are describing is a form of slavery -indentured servitude -don't do it. And if anybody ever told me they were revoking my PTO I would tell them I was leaving anyway. If there was not some sort of emergency issue that made sense to revoke my PTO, I would just leave. Staffing problems are not the staff's problem; it is a management problem. At my last job the other X-ray techs told me they hadn't had vacations for 2 or 3 years because there was nobody to cover them. It was their own fault they never took their vacation because they should have insisted upon it. I told management at that clinic that the only way I would take the job at all was if I could work 4 days a week. The other employees were mad at me about that, but they could have negotiated the same thing for themselves. We have seen how easily these hospitals and clinics will get rid of us if we dare to refuse to participate in a medical experiment. I hope everybody learns to value themselves a little more highly. We get what we settled for.
I gave them the finger when they mandated that in our state. Resigned, upskilled in tech. Two years after, now on my second tech job, I am earning 6 figures. Never would have happened if I stayed in bedside nursing.
@loraqgui Good for you! I was fired in May 2020 for refusing the face diapers. The surgeons I worked for knew masks wouldn't work for an airborne virus, but they pushed it because the state told them they had to. They fired me for "reasons", they actually wrote that!!! I got more in enhanced unemployment than I earned. We took road trips and met other ant vxxrs, it was great. Now I do per diem c-arm for a local surgeon.
Surprised no one mentioned the excessive charting nurses have to do which takes time away from pt and also the fact that nursing school cannot prepare you for all the various protocols and charting systems for different hospitals. They need to make one system for all nurses and doctors. Would help to mainstream everything
If you go to Home Health, they give you no choice but to use your own phone and usually without reimbursement. You also find yourself calling patients after work hours and documenting until time to go to sleep on most days. Regardless of salaried or hourly, you are documenting late. If hourly, you are entitled to OT, but they fight you not to pay your OT. The mile paid is ridiculous, especially with gas prices over the moon. I thought about leaving nursing some time ago, but traveling HH positions became available. I find traveling, not a great nursing job, but doable and a bit less stressful mainly because you are paid a bit more (even this is losing its appeal is not up with the times and the inflation), and you can take time off as much as you want or need. Taking some time between assignments without stressing too much about the bills, makes it better, but not the best nursing job. Here are my two cents.
They should be termed 'retention bonuses' in my mind. If you quit, you pay back the money, I get it, but generally they are paid out in installments. I believe it's due to nurse burnout and shortages and they can't afford to have nurses getting 'just enough' experience and then leaving for better pay or, hospital shopping and signing up for bonuses at each new workplace. Perhaps simply paying the nurses what they are worth and hiring more staff to alleviate stress and burnout, would be better for everyone and they'd keep their trained staff on the unit for a long time. Everyone would be happy.
I had to sign a contract where they would train me as a seasoned nurse to a specialty. It was for 30 months commitment or pay 30k. There was a reason for that. Absolute horrible pay and working environment. I felt hostage the entire time. I gained PTSD and started to hate nursing. It was not worth it but I fulfilled my commitment and ran out of there. If I had to do it all over again I would have never taken that contract. I never allowed anyone to pay for my BSN nor MSN either. I rather have a ton of student loans than be tied like that to anyone. I have seen way too many people be in similar situations because they got help for school. Hell no, it’s a trap.
How is that legal???? You still worked for that money. They aren’t paying you for work you did not do!!! THAT’S BS!! I would totally walk out on an interview if someone asked me to sign that. Maybe they need to focus on why they can’t keep employees. F-THAT! Another reason I don’t think I’ll be a nurse again. PS I agree with Nurse Adrian. The onus is on HR to screen and get the right person for the job, and if nurses aren’t staying, it’s the fault of the organization and the toxic environment. I’m so angry listening to this.
I am a Home Health RN, in this misrepresented specialty we have to do it all. We do have not team players with us when out on the field. The closest we have to getting help is a phone, and if you are out of the signal area you are on your own. With hospitals sending patients sicker and more unstable and with many procedures (some new ones we never trained in nursing school that you have to learn in the fly) our job has become more complex. However, our agencies put time into our visits, and expect us to see more than 6 patients in a day, drive 6 to 7hrs, and complete the overwhelming Medicare documentation in less than 24 hrs. I am seriously considering retiring because it is getting crazy out there. The sad thing is that the patients are the ones suffering the most because the need for HH nurses has increased, and home health is a constant revolving door where nurses are scarce. Most nurses come to HH thinking that they going to have it easy (it used to be a bit easier) than a hospital, and once reality sets in, they rather come back to their old jobs. I believe these agencies and hospitals do not respect us and treat us like robots, not humans. Until the last five years, traveling for HH was not a thing. I went to HH traveling at the time when they started hiring travel nurses because the staff nurses do not last too long. I find it more doable because I get paid more, and I can take enough time off to recover from all the stress and regain my desire to work and be a nurse. Great discussion on the nurse work conditions at these critical times. Everybody wonders why the a nurse shortage, you only find out when you become a nurse.
Mr.Midwife is preaching! No one listens when you tell them why you are leaving. So nothing changes. If I’m leaving it’s because I’m at my wits end. I had a manager tell me to take B12 shots for energy-change the lack of staff and resources , I mean seriously?! Really too much indentured servitude.
@Happy Dog maybe the managers need to work on the floor for a few months to see how they like it. It's sad that they can't be more empathetic and supportive because that goes a long way.
At my HCA hospital in San Antonio, TX, they withhold their 401K contribution until 31 December. If you are fired or quit for any reason at any time prior to that (even Dec 30), you will NOT receive their contribution. They purge (layoffs) every October, and the stress is unbearable. The fear is palpable and senior leadership engages in outrageous behavior games.
Is that legal? I don't live in the USA but doubt they could get away with that here. We all contribute to what is known as the Canada Pension Plan-both the employer and the employee contribute to this from day one so you will receive at least a gov't pension up to a maximum when 65 AND FT nurses would end up receiving an additional pension from their job at age 65 or less depending on their work contract (ie Factor 80 or 85 and now likely 90 for example, which is number of years of service plus your age must equal 90 for you) to receive your full pension from your job. Of course the longer you contribute to it, the higher your work pension will be.
Every time I hear nurses from California talk about working conditions in California, it makes me realize more and more that I need to move to California 😂
So the hospital affiliated with my school did this. Nurse recruiters came in to speak to our senior class about 3 months before graduation, and gave us "requisition numbers" to apply to our jobs through the "nurse intern program" that ALL new nurses were required to apply under at the hospital. I raised my hand, confused about the difference between this program I'd never heard of before, and the nurse residency program (which I had heard of before). The recruiter beat around the bush a bit and he even looked a bit uncomfortable, but he explained that the "internship program" included a 2.5 year contract, and you had to pay xxxx amount if you did not fulfill your time. He asked me to come talk to him with questions after class. So I did apply to one department in that hospital, and after my interview they sent me the contract. The required payback was an additional thousand dollars more than what the recruiter had said to our class!! I asked about the tuition pay-back program that the school had touted when I first enrolled in nursing school, and never got a straight answer. It felt SO shady to me. This was a "magnet" hospital. I got a job at a different magnet hospital, in a specialty, where I don't owe anything if I have to quit, and guess what? My school's hospital lost their magnet status this year. Go figure.
That's so sneaky. I wonder how many unsuspecting, very young, new grads signed the docs. We had nothing like that but I think pretty much everyone in our class was offered at least one full time job especially after consolidation. None of us signed anything but perhaps this is something new, being that it involves 'signing bonuses'.
I'm very confused, y do the nurses have to pay the hospital if they don't fulfill the contract if they r not being given sign on bonuses. What exactly r they payin back?
Seems like they would be paying back money to the hospital to pay for like a proctor or mentorship like you get the job as a new grad and they put you under the wing of someone for that period of time and if you quit I’m guessing that’s a breach of contract and they loose out finically because they invested time into you and gave you a mentor to help you get your balance and spent time mentoring you
I am an experienced ICU nurse that transferred to L and D several years ago. Small community hospital. Orientation abysmal. New grads have been nurtured and advanced to "core" status only to leave for a different part of the country. Granted I am towards the end of my career but I do have 5 + years left in me and good background skills . I love L and D but manager seems clueless and disinterested in cultivating me. I'm to the point where I don't GASht anymore. I am enjoying the work I do without the pressure of being "core" or charge and have the knowledge that my old ICU would be more than delighted to have me back if current manager puts me in a bad situation. Stupid is as stupid does.
WTF is with your country. Sorry but that is ridiculous. I’m currently doing a TPPP which is a graduate program. It’s a 12 month contract where we get a HEAP of extra training and support so these are DEFINITELY expensive for SA Health. I have just got to the 6 month mark and I have resigned because I got another job at a different hospital. There is no question that I would have to pay back the cost of the training, they got the value of my training out of my work while I was working there. Whoever said this is indentured servitude is absolutely right.
Thank you for taking on this topic! Even the VA does this. I got a sign on bonus that I have to pay back (prorated) if I don't stay at least 2 years. It's becoming more and more common in medicine.
I am currently in a BSN program because all the hospitals within 1 hour of where i live require a BSN to work there. And my teachers, all nurses, are too worried about the NCLEX and the school's annual NCLEX passing percentage to actually teach anything. I have a semester left and I have no idea how to program an IVPB, but I can therapeutically tell you all about it. And the hospitals ALL have traps. The school's hospital has the worst one. Go figure.
it''s politics. Most programs stress the passing of nclex bc it determines accreditation status and the influx of $$$. The Truth is u will learn how to perform those tasks on your first real job. Focus on passing that nclex. Unfortunately, that's just the way they have schooling set up.
paying back schooling I agree with. Charging for hospital training is ridiculous. If the job was tolerable, people wouldnt quit a job quickly unless it was a situation like they got pregnant or a spouse needs to take a job in a new area
OBNurseChelsey, oh so a nurse quitting is costing the hospital to lose money even though the hospital no longer has to pay any wages to the RN? That makes a tone of sense. Also, the training offered to the new grad nurse is the same training offered to the seasoned nurse new to the floor just for a longer period of time. The training is not special, it’s basic on the job training you get new grad or not. The new nurse is not earning any certifications or licenser in training; therefore, the hospital is not loosing any money. The exception would be specialty programs like perioperative 101 where all nurses are trained (new or old nurses) for a new specialty the confers a certification. In that sense, all nurses should be asked to pay if they quit, not just new grad nurses. This is nothing but nurses ignorantly supporting indentured servitude and peonage.
In most the OR I have worked in they dump training you on the other nurses. This leads to inconsistent training with no standards and holes in your knowledge. At one point I was the only nurse with more then 6 months experience so all the training fell to me. That’s a lot of responsibility for no extra incentive. As you know if someone you are trading screws up you can be held responsible.
HR Should have a plan if the training doesnt work out. Lets say the RN is Qualified, but suddently got panic attacks and got to change, you cannot tell him or her to suck it up, and put in dager the patients. So, All HR people, have to have a Plan B option of nurses to be trained on a certain amount of time. So, this is just a practice no one use is old and most likely bullies people. If ruins lives and should not be allowed. Do to the fact, that people have issues, medical issues, and some have to leave beacuse of family issues, it means they will not be able to handle one problem if they have another. So, with that being said, if they feel they are loosing investment money on individual dont last, it might be because the company itself has a compensation problem its not the employee.
i've worked in multiple states. There are hospitals that were about the same level of difficulty and some cali hospitals that were even more difficult than out of state hospitals because Ca. has some cultural differences. For ex: a cali hospital may take away all cna's & secretaries at night and require more unnecessary additional documentation (paper/cpu/special forms). Some floors don't even have a charge nurse. Also, some Ca. hospitals units don't hold the cnas/techs accountable for tasks and even some tasks are limited in regards to scope of practice (CNA's can't check blood sugars in Ca.). I've worked on units that have cnas but they still assign a nurse to be "Primary." Primary is when the nurse is responsible for doing "EVERYTHING" for the patient bc the pt is suppose to be more independent & need minimal assistance but sometimes those primary patients be the heaviest call light hitters and/or have unsteady gait and need help to restroom/bedside commode etc. You can take an extra patient if u have a good team of supportive staff and policies that are not dead set on making the nurses do everything. And, don't get me started on charting systems and how some facilities like to specialize their requirements and it just slows the nurse down and is a complete waste of time.
I think it is a big mistake to teach nursing students to just pass the NCLEX and ask questions like "What is the priority of ___" with abcd, when all the options relevant, but they study as if only option b is what you need to know, and in practice, it may not practically be in that order. Nursing school needs to be completely redone with learning what it is like on the floor much more.
I’m in the OR and signed a 2 yr contract . I have to pay 10 k if I quit before the 2 yrs but I’ve only been there 6 months and looking to desperately get out, I just don’t know how to go about it .
As a UK resident starting a degree in learning disabilities nursing, I have never heard of this here! It's absolutely criminal and how is this even allowed? You could be in debt if you kept leaving jobs before contracts expire.
I would say that if you sign a contract to work for a hospital for a certain period of time because they are paying for a portion of your education, then yes you need to fulfill the contract. You have to be careful what you sign and are really getting yourself into. It needs to be spelled out. What is your salary, what is the hospitals expectation in terms of the hours you work and description of your job including average case load.
This was a really great video. You talked a lot about the shortcomings of nursing school. This isn't the first time you've touched on this topic and clearly, programs could be done better. However, how could those in school (like me!) maximize their academic experience, knowing the school likely won't change any time soon? I assume that nothing can really prepare us for "real world" nursing in such a short time, but I'd love to do whatever I can to be as good as I can be once I graduate. I think this would be an interesting panel discussion topic, too.
So it totally is the hospital’s responsibility to orient and train. Nursing school could never complete this process. But the hospital has no right to make nurses sign something that says they will pay back money if they quit. That isn’t even indentured servitude that is slavery because then you worked part of your orientation for free. Also, I will bet that if nursing were male dominated, these traps would not exist.
If a hospital or unit is losing nurses repetitively in droves, is it really an issue with all of those individual nurses or is it an employer problem? And is penalizing people really what we want to use for retention? You’re going to have droves of quiet quitters.
We could start IVs but there weren't a ton of opportunities to practice that skill during our clinicals. Our instructor was always present. Is a preceptorship the same as a clinical with an instructor? Worked as an ADN then completed the BSN. It was just a repeat of the ADN program!!!
Lol what NurseAdriene said about her program demanding excellence is how my ADN program was here in the south. Our program was focused around critical thinking, pharmacology, and skills. And really the main theory that we really focused on was Maslows. And our instructors did not play either. First semester we started clinicals and every patient we took care of had to have handmade drug cards and we were expected memorize and go over those meds with the instructor before giving them. It is interesting though to note my classmates and I had asked our instructors why our practicum in the last semester had to be in med surg if that’s not a field we’re interested in and we were given the answer because we were an ADN program they would only allow BSN students to pick other specialities. I know someone had mentioned that so maybe that varies by state🤷🏽♀️
Similar to my training and it was expected that all students have at least one 6 week, 40 hour consolidation on a med-surg floor because of all the skills you'd become proficient in, time management because it's non stop. You'd certainly become well organized and be comfortable with connecting/dealing with all of the specialists and disciplines.
Brigitte, my nursing education was like yours and Adrienne also. They were sooooo tough and we had a very small graduating class of about 25. It WAS boot camp and we had NO outside life of school! Our very last semester of our last year, we were in our chosen units (one had to be med-surg and any other of our choice) and we worked full time, 40 hour weeks x 6 weeks each unit and we were expected to have full patient load just as an RN would or we wouldn't be permitted to continue or write the school exam, let alone the provincials which were written after the school exams (which were much harder). Our preceptor was there IF we needed anything and would check in on us much like a head nurse would do as well as the supervisor as she was scouting for future floor staff. We were in clinical the second semester (first year). In second year, we were in the hospital at least 2 days a week on top of 8 hour days at school. Until we passed our provincial exams, we were not permitted to start IVs or IV push AND after that we needed to be trained/certified by the hospital that hires us. We had alot of hands on, clinical training. I felt very confident in all my skills when I graduated and ready to learn the added skills along the way. I didn't even have a résumé, and was offered a full time position on a super busy med-surg floor AND I was very pregnant also. Better times, I suppose.
What year was this? There is a lot of liability today when nursing students work alone. We would never have been allowed to give IV medication alone without an instructor or nurse preceptor. Students are not allowed access to the Pyxis either.
In any job there is a training period where you get used to their systems which is free. You go to school for a degree so that you are educated and knowledgeable to qualify for the position. Two different things with the former expense being taken on by the business. Anyone fresh out of school without no hands on job experience in their chosen field but is hired because they qualify is always hired at the lowest rate of pay for the position. You get paid more depending on years of experience and the business should be pairing the new people with experienced people so they can impart knowledge to the new one. There shouldn't have to be a contract making a new person stay if the business is a decent place to work.
I took a job , experienced bullying, racism and favoritism by the management team in the ER. I ended up quitting and now they’re asking 10k repayment, how crazy is that ??
I wish there was more opportunity for experienced nurses who have worked outside the hospital but want to return to the hospital. I have been in other areas, related to maternal-child health as well as other areas, and have wanted to return to the hospital fbc, but because it has been 11 years since I have worked in the hospital, I have been unable to get back in, even with 2 nurse refresher courses (one online only because of covid and now hands on one day at the end), and will have to follow with a nurse preceptorship I would pay $1600 to attend and then MAYBE I would have a chance at re-entering the hospital only in med-surg.
They should be able to hire u and have a good training program for u. I can't believe they want you do all that ($1,600) and to only allow for medsurg when that's not even your background and desire of interest. They know very few people want to work in med/surg. I'd relocate temporarily in a desperate area or pay that $1,600. Do medsurg and quit at your very earliest convenience. I wouldn't do more than 6 months in medsurg and tell the hiring managers the truth when applying for ob/l&d/motherbaby. My passion is in this area. I could only get here if I entered med/surg first bc the surrounding hospitals required it bc i took too long of a break from hospital nursing. I'd start applying at the 4 month mark. If they want to be cut throat with business, u do the same. Take control of your career.
I never worked in a hospital and was out of the profession completely for 15 yrs. I know a friend on a hospital floor, and they agreed to hire me and train me on the job. One should NOT have to pay with the shortage of nurses. They should pay you 🙏. Good luck.
Thank you for standing up for what is right. I wish more medical Professionals would stand up today and bring back real health care for the American people. You are a hero. You believe in ,first do no harm, the oath of the medical profession.
If a job pays for you to get some kind certified or degreed training, from a unaffiliated 3rd party, it is reasonable that they hold you responsible for some period of time in recompense for part of the cost associated with that training. It is NOT reasonable to simply make it a blanket condition of employment to retain people. It is not reasonable to leverage this potential fine for on the job training/experience. I would support federal legislation that made this part of labor law.
Valuable points were shared. However. This discussion could have been more effective if the participants were limited to 3 individuals. In some parts, the guests were cutting each other or talking at the same time, or speeding up because the others also wanted air time. if it was necessary to invite all of them, then the others could have been interviewed on a different day so all of them can better be heard. And also, so much information were compacted in one sitting, instead of focusing on the main topic. Diffrent topics even if they are related can be discussed separately.
@1:35:20 Andrew LaCivita is THE BEST RECRUITER AND FORMER CORP INTERVIEW TRAINER ON TH-cam I use the Andrew when I switch from the education system to the Healthcare System and boy oh boy Andrew was such a help and a blessing to transfer my skills over and help me to ask the right questions when it came down to what I need to know before I interview in the healthcare sector.
Talking about education: I have a masters in Comparative Education, have taught in multiple countries/cultural settings, been part of groups assessing education programs at a university, and am currently in a high ranking nursing school in the USA. - Would be happy to contribute to a discussion on this topic from the perspective as an actual educator and published educational social scientist who is 'suffering' through nursing school.
Your credentials sound silly, superficial and superfluous, and about as relevant to nursing as teats on a boar hog. You pumps and pearls "educators" are what's wrong with nursing today.
As a Nursing Preceptor for new graduate nurses, it was explained to me that it cost the hospital at least $40,000 per year to complete all that new graduates needed to know to work in a trauma center hospital. This included paying me extra to help and share my nursing knowledge and critical thinking skills working side by side for a minimum of 90 working days until they were ready to be on their own.
that may very well be true but just imagine if that nurse stays for just 1 year and a half. They are going to recoup that money so fast. And if they stay 3 or 4 years the hospital may as well pay that same nurse a bonus that's worth 40k net over the period of 4 pay periods.
The hospital paid my additional salary, which was more than charge nurse as I was responsible for his/her training. They were required to stay for one year. All of my orienteers had to have their BSN. Each one went on to stay on the unit, but some transferred to ED, ICU, Cardiology etc. Every year, after on year of service, the hospital gave EVERY employee a significant bonus, which I am sure helped with retention.
@@susansullivan5203 I work in the outpatient setting. There are no differentials for precepting that I am aware of. There is a LOT to learn in the medical specialties, urgent care, primary care, etc. You pretty much have to teach yourself.
OBNurse Chelsey. At what point does the hospital take ownership for creating an environment in which nurses desire to quit immediately after a full length orientation?? Nursing is considered the most trusted profession year after year but we can't even give our colleagues the benefit of doubt that at least 95% of individuals do not have the intent to leave a workplace so soon. For God's sake, it's 16 to 20 weeks of training in what is considered to be a prestigious sought after specialty. I'm convinced that the profession of Nursing is truly comparable to an abusive relationship.
That's exactly right. It's like an alcoholic family.
Thank you! I just watched this video and I was going to leave a similar comment.
@@MishaIsha1schizoid as well
It was a neurosurgeon in Guam who set me straight about appropriate boundaries. I was working nearly every single day because without a CT Tech there is no emergency department. He said, "Not your problem, Catherine. " When a patient came in Friday evening with a knife lodged in his face between the bridge of his nose and his eyeball, and this Neurosurgeon refused to refused to come in because he had already worked Monday thru Friday, I saw how serious he was about this. They sedated the patient over the weekend and the knife was pulled out of the guy's face Monday morning. I haven't been the same since then. 😊
Don't sign these contracts!! What you are describing is a form of slavery -indentured servitude -don't do it. And if anybody ever told me they were revoking my PTO I would tell them I was leaving anyway. If there was not some sort of emergency issue that made sense to revoke my PTO, I would just leave. Staffing problems are not the staff's problem; it is a management problem.
At my last job the other X-ray techs told me they hadn't had vacations for 2 or 3 years because there was nobody to cover them. It was their own fault they never took their vacation because they should have insisted upon it. I told management at that clinic that the only way I would take the job at all was if I could work 4 days a week. The other employees were mad at me about that, but they could have negotiated the same thing for themselves.
We have seen how easily these hospitals and clinics will get rid of us if we dare to refuse to participate in a medical experiment. I hope everybody learns to value themselves a little more highly. We get what we settled for.
I gave them the finger when they mandated that in our state. Resigned, upskilled in tech. Two years after, now on my second tech job, I am earning 6 figures. Never would have happened if I stayed in bedside nursing.
@loraqgui Good for you! I was fired in May 2020 for refusing the face diapers. The surgeons I worked for knew masks wouldn't work for an airborne virus, but they pushed it because the state told them they had to. They fired me for "reasons", they actually wrote that!!!
I got more in enhanced unemployment than I earned.
We took road trips and met other ant vxxrs, it was great.
Now I do per diem c-arm for a local surgeon.
Surprised no one mentioned the excessive charting nurses have to do which takes time away from pt and also the fact that nursing school cannot prepare you for all the various protocols and charting systems for different hospitals. They need to make one system for all nurses and doctors. Would help to mainstream everything
Also you should never do any training unpaid. Never use your personal cell phone or be obligated to respond to texts after hours unless on call
Great advice!!
If you go to Home Health, they give you no choice but to use your own phone and usually without reimbursement. You also find yourself calling patients after work hours and documenting until time to go to sleep on most days. Regardless of salaried or hourly, you are documenting late. If hourly, you are entitled to OT, but they fight you not to pay your OT. The mile paid is ridiculous, especially with gas prices over the moon. I thought about leaving nursing some time ago, but traveling HH positions became available. I find traveling, not a great nursing job, but doable and a bit less stressful mainly because you are paid a bit more (even this is losing its appeal is not up with the times and the inflation), and you can take time off as much as you want or need. Taking some time between assignments without stressing too much about the bills, makes it better, but not the best nursing job. Here are my two cents.
I mean... ...fining employees who quit is a pretty good way to make sure no one ever applies for work there again. 🙃
They're really shooting themselves in the foot with this one.
They should be termed 'retention bonuses' in my mind. If you quit, you pay back the money, I get it, but generally they are paid out in installments. I believe it's due to nurse burnout and shortages and they can't afford to have nurses getting 'just enough' experience and then leaving for better pay or, hospital shopping and signing up for bonuses at each new workplace.
Perhaps simply paying the nurses what they are worth and hiring more staff to alleviate stress and burnout, would be better for everyone and they'd keep their trained staff on the unit for a long time. Everyone would be happy.
I had to sign a contract where they would train me as a seasoned nurse to a specialty. It was for 30 months commitment or pay 30k. There was a reason for that. Absolute horrible pay and working environment. I felt hostage the entire time. I gained PTSD and started to hate nursing. It was not worth it but I fulfilled my commitment and ran out of there.
If I had to do it all over again I would have never taken that contract. I never allowed anyone to pay for my BSN nor MSN either. I rather have a ton of student loans than be tied like that to anyone. I have seen way too many people be in similar situations because they got help for school. Hell no, it’s a trap.
truth of the matter is life is too short to be that miserable year after year...I wouldnt recommend anyone to sign a contract longer than one year.
How is that legal???? You still worked for that money. They aren’t paying you for work you did not do!!! THAT’S BS!!
I would totally walk out on an interview if someone asked me to sign that.
Maybe they need to focus on why they can’t keep employees. F-THAT!
Another reason I don’t think I’ll be a nurse again.
PS I agree with Nurse Adrian. The onus is on HR to screen and get the right person for the job, and if nurses aren’t staying, it’s the fault of the organization and the toxic environment.
I’m so angry listening to this.
I am a Home Health RN, in this misrepresented specialty we have to do it all. We do have not team players with us when out on the field. The closest we have to getting help is a phone, and if you are out of the signal area you are on your own. With hospitals sending patients sicker and more unstable and with many procedures (some new ones we never trained in nursing school that you have to learn in the fly) our job has become more complex. However, our agencies put time into our visits, and expect us to see more than 6 patients in a day, drive 6 to 7hrs, and complete the overwhelming Medicare documentation in less than 24 hrs. I am seriously considering retiring because it is getting crazy out there. The sad thing is that the patients are the ones suffering the most because the need for HH nurses has increased, and home health is a constant revolving door where nurses are scarce. Most nurses come to HH thinking that they going to have it easy (it used to be a bit easier) than a hospital, and once reality sets in, they rather come back to their old jobs. I believe these agencies and hospitals do not respect us and treat us like robots, not humans. Until the last five years, traveling for HH was not a thing. I went to HH traveling at the time when they started hiring travel nurses because the staff nurses do not last too long. I find it more doable because I get paid more, and I can take enough time off to recover from all the stress and regain my desire to work and be a nurse. Great discussion on the nurse work conditions at these critical times. Everybody wonders why the a nurse shortage, you only find out when you become a nurse.
Mr.Midwife is preaching! No one listens when you tell them why you are leaving. So nothing changes. If I’m leaving it’s because I’m at my wits end.
I had a manager tell me to take B12 shots for energy-change the lack of staff and resources , I mean seriously?! Really too much indentured servitude.
wooow I'm sorry you wasn't listened to!
I had a neurointervemtional surgeon tell me to keep a jar of nuts in the CT control room so I could work thru lunch and maintain my pace.
@Happy Dog wow 😒 that’s just about delusion on their end
Just wow
@Happy Dog maybe the managers need to work on the floor for a few months to see how they like it. It's sad that they can't be more empathetic and supportive because that goes a long way.
At my HCA hospital in San Antonio, TX, they withhold their 401K contribution until 31 December. If you are fired or quit for any reason at any time prior to that (even Dec 30), you will NOT receive their contribution. They purge (layoffs) every October, and the stress is unbearable. The fear is palpable and senior leadership engages in outrageous behavior games.
Holy cow! I bet the retention rate is horrible. How much are they paying to constantly retrain new employees!! Seems a lawyer and union is in order.
Is that legal? I don't live in the USA but doubt they could get away with that here.
We all contribute to what is known as the Canada Pension Plan-both the employer and the employee contribute to this from day one so you will receive at least a gov't pension up to a maximum when 65 AND FT nurses would end up receiving an additional pension from their job at age 65 or less depending on their work contract (ie Factor 80 or 85 and now likely 90 for example, which is number of years of service plus your age must equal 90 for you) to receive your full pension from your job. Of course the longer you contribute to it, the higher your work pension will be.
Every time I hear nurses from California talk about working conditions in California, it makes me realize more and more that I need to move to California 😂
So the hospital affiliated with my school did this. Nurse recruiters came in to speak to our senior class about 3 months before graduation, and gave us "requisition numbers" to apply to our jobs through the "nurse intern program" that ALL new nurses were required to apply under at the hospital. I raised my hand, confused about the difference between this program I'd never heard of before, and the nurse residency program (which I had heard of before). The recruiter beat around the bush a bit and he even looked a bit uncomfortable, but he explained that the "internship program" included a 2.5 year contract, and you had to pay xxxx amount if you did not fulfill your time. He asked me to come talk to him with questions after class.
So I did apply to one department in that hospital, and after my interview they sent me the contract. The required payback was an additional thousand dollars more than what the recruiter had said to our class!! I asked about the tuition pay-back program that the school had touted when I first enrolled in nursing school, and never got a straight answer. It felt SO shady to me. This was a "magnet" hospital.
I got a job at a different magnet hospital, in a specialty, where I don't owe anything if I have to quit, and guess what? My school's hospital lost their magnet status this year. Go figure.
That's so sneaky. I wonder how many unsuspecting, very young, new grads signed the docs. We had nothing like that but I think pretty much everyone in our class was offered at least one full time job especially after consolidation. None of us signed anything but perhaps this is something new, being that it involves 'signing bonuses'.
I'm very confused, y do the nurses have to pay the hospital if they don't fulfill the contract if they r not being given sign on bonuses. What exactly r they payin back?
Seems like they would be paying back money to the hospital to pay for like a proctor or mentorship like you get the job as a new grad and they put you under the wing of someone for that period of time and if you quit I’m guessing that’s a breach of contract and they loose out finically because they invested time into you and gave you a mentor to help you get your balance and spent time mentoring you
I am an experienced ICU nurse that transferred to L and D several years ago. Small community hospital. Orientation abysmal. New grads have been nurtured and advanced to "core" status only to leave for a different part of the country. Granted I am towards the end of my career but I do have 5 + years left in me and good background skills . I love L and D but manager seems clueless and disinterested in cultivating me. I'm to the point where I don't GASht anymore. I am enjoying the work I do without the pressure of being "core" or charge and have the knowledge that my old ICU would be more than delighted to have me back if current manager puts me in a bad situation. Stupid is as stupid does.
Was it hard transitioning from ICU to L&D
WTF is with your country. Sorry but that is ridiculous. I’m currently doing a TPPP which is a graduate program. It’s a 12 month contract where we get a HEAP of extra training and support so these are DEFINITELY expensive for SA Health. I have just got to the 6 month mark and I have resigned because I got another job at a different hospital. There is no question that I would have to pay back the cost of the training, they got the value of my training out of my work while I was working there.
Whoever said this is indentured servitude is absolutely right.
Where you at? Sounds wonderful
Thank you for taking on this topic! Even the VA does this. I got a sign on bonus that I have to pay back (prorated) if I don't stay at least 2 years. It's becoming more and more common in medicine.
I am currently in a BSN program because all the hospitals within 1 hour of where i live require a BSN to work there. And my teachers, all nurses, are too worried about the NCLEX and the school's annual NCLEX passing percentage to actually teach anything. I have a semester left and I have no idea how to program an IVPB, but I can therapeutically tell you all about it. And the hospitals ALL have traps. The school's hospital has the worst one. Go figure.
it''s politics. Most programs stress the passing of nclex bc it determines accreditation status and the influx of $$$. The Truth is u will learn how to perform those tasks on your first real job. Focus on passing that nclex. Unfortunately, that's just the way they have schooling set up.
4-6 weeks training is crazy. Hospitals here offer 13+ weeks
paying back schooling I agree with. Charging for hospital training is ridiculous. If the job was tolerable, people wouldnt quit a job quickly unless it was a situation like they got pregnant or a spouse needs to take a job in a new area
Good point about pregnancy which could violate the employment contract due to leave
And they put your name in black files, so next employment would be tough
OBNurseChelsey, oh so a nurse quitting is costing the hospital to lose money even though the hospital no longer has to pay any wages to the RN? That makes a tone of sense. Also, the training offered to the new grad nurse is the same training offered to the seasoned nurse new to the floor just for a longer period of time. The training is not special, it’s basic on the job training you get new grad or not. The new nurse is not earning any certifications or licenser in training; therefore, the hospital is not loosing any money. The exception would be specialty programs like perioperative 101 where all nurses are trained (new or old nurses) for a new specialty the confers a certification. In that sense, all nurses should be asked to pay if they quit, not just new grad nurses. This is nothing but nurses ignorantly supporting indentured servitude and peonage.
I agree…❤
I need Adriene’s confidence in my life 😭 She’s so amazing
In most the OR I have worked in they dump training you on the other nurses. This leads to inconsistent training with no standards and holes in your knowledge.
At one point I was the only nurse with more then 6 months experience so all the training fell to me. That’s a lot of responsibility for no extra incentive. As you know if someone you are trading screws up you can be held responsible.
Yes. I think in general hospitals are toxic. Also hospitals need to orient for legal responsibilities .
HR Should have a plan if the training doesnt work out. Lets say the RN is Qualified, but suddently got panic attacks and got to change, you cannot tell him or her to suck it up, and put in dager the patients. So, All HR people, have to have a Plan B option of nurses to be trained on a certain amount of time. So, this is just a practice no one use is old and most likely bullies people. If ruins lives and should not be allowed. Do to the fact, that people have issues, medical issues, and some have to leave beacuse of family issues, it means they will not be able to handle one problem if they have another. So, with that being said, if they feel they are loosing investment money on individual dont last, it might be because the company itself has a compensation problem its not the employee.
This is crazy makes me feel unsure about leaving california as a nurse 😳 thanks for shedding light on these issues
Now that I left Cali I won’t return to bedside
i've worked in multiple states. There are hospitals that were about the same level of difficulty and some cali hospitals that were even more difficult than out of state hospitals because Ca. has some cultural differences. For ex: a cali hospital may take away all cna's & secretaries at night and require more unnecessary additional documentation (paper/cpu/special forms). Some floors don't even have a charge nurse. Also, some Ca. hospitals units don't hold the cnas/techs accountable for tasks and even some tasks are limited in regards to scope of practice (CNA's can't check blood sugars in Ca.). I've worked on units that have cnas but they still assign a nurse to be "Primary." Primary is when the nurse is responsible for doing "EVERYTHING" for the patient bc the pt is suppose to be more independent & need minimal assistance but sometimes those primary patients be the heaviest call light hitters and/or have unsteady gait and need help to restroom/bedside commode etc. You can take an extra patient if u have a good team of supportive staff and policies that are not dead set on making the nurses do everything. And, don't get me started on charting systems and how some facilities like to specialize their requirements and it just slows the nurse down and is a complete waste of time.
I like how NurseScott's dog is listening in like he/she understands. lol!
I think it is a big mistake to teach nursing students to just pass the NCLEX and ask questions like "What is the priority of ___" with abcd, when all the options relevant, but they study as if only option b is what you need to know, and in practice, it may not practically be in that order. Nursing school needs to be completely redone with learning what it is like on the floor much more.
'Problem based learning' (PBL) is taught at many of the universities here. Encourages and teaches students critical thinking.
I’m in the OR and signed a 2 yr contract . I have to pay 10 k if I quit before the 2 yrs but I’ve only been there 6 months and looking to desperately get out, I just don’t know how to go about it .
Similar situation, trying to look into it to see what can be done
@@TogebeaTv I just quit . I pray they don’t come for me !!
@@DariTrinidaddid anything happen?? Hope you’re ok!
As a UK resident starting a degree in learning disabilities nursing, I have never heard of this here! It's absolutely criminal and how is this even allowed? You could be in debt if you kept leaving jobs before contracts expire.
I would say that if you sign a contract to work for a hospital for a certain period of time because they are paying for a portion of your education, then yes you need to fulfill the contract. You have to be careful what you sign and are really getting yourself into. It needs to be spelled out. What is your salary, what is the hospitals expectation in terms of the hours you work and description of your job including average case load.
This was a really great video. You talked a lot about the shortcomings of nursing school. This isn't the first time you've touched on this topic and clearly, programs could be done better. However, how could those in school (like me!) maximize their academic experience, knowing the school likely won't change any time soon? I assume that nothing can really prepare us for "real world" nursing in such a short time, but I'd love to do whatever I can to be as good as I can be once I graduate. I think this would be an interesting panel discussion topic, too.
So it totally is the hospital’s responsibility to orient and train. Nursing school could never complete this process. But the hospital has no right to make nurses sign something that says they will pay back money if they quit. That isn’t even indentured servitude that is slavery because then you worked part of your orientation for free.
Also, I will bet that if nursing were male dominated, these traps would not exist.
If a hospital or unit is losing nurses repetitively in droves, is it really an issue with all of those individual nurses or is it an employer problem? And is penalizing people really what we want to use for retention? You’re going to have droves of quiet quitters.
We could start IVs but there weren't a ton of opportunities to practice that skill during our clinicals. Our instructor was always present. Is a preceptorship the same as a clinical with an instructor? Worked as an ADN then completed the BSN. It was just a repeat of the ADN program!!!
Lol what NurseAdriene said about her program demanding excellence is how my ADN program was here in the south. Our program was focused around critical thinking, pharmacology, and skills. And really the main theory that we really focused on was Maslows. And our instructors did not play either. First semester we started clinicals and every patient we took care of had to have handmade drug cards and we were expected memorize and go over those meds with the instructor before giving them. It is interesting though to note my classmates and I had asked our instructors why our practicum in the last semester had to be in med surg if that’s not a field we’re interested in and we were given the answer because we were an ADN program they would only allow BSN students to pick other specialities. I know someone had mentioned that so maybe that varies by state🤷🏽♀️
Similar to my training and it was expected that all students have at least one 6 week, 40 hour consolidation on a med-surg floor because of all the skills you'd become proficient in, time management because it's non stop. You'd certainly become well organized and be comfortable with connecting/dealing with all of the specialists and disciplines.
BS that's the cost of doing business!! Signing bonus is able to be recouped but Training cost is on them!!!
Just the topic pissed me off. Because I don’t wanna to lose my license once I get it 😢
Great presentation, you guys. Thank you.
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Brigitte, my nursing education was like yours and Adrienne also. They were sooooo tough and we had a very small graduating class of about 25. It WAS boot camp and we had NO outside life of school! Our very last semester of our last year, we were in our chosen units (one had to be med-surg and any other of our choice) and we worked full time, 40 hour weeks x 6 weeks each unit and we were expected to have full patient load just as an RN would or we wouldn't be permitted to continue or write the school exam, let alone the provincials which were written after the school exams (which were much harder). Our preceptor was there IF we needed anything and would check in on us much like a head nurse would do as well as the supervisor as she was scouting for future floor staff.
We were in clinical the second semester (first year). In second year, we were in the hospital at least 2 days a week on top of 8 hour days at school. Until we passed our provincial exams, we were not permitted to start IVs or IV push AND after that we needed to be trained/certified by the hospital that hires us. We had alot of hands on, clinical training. I felt very confident in all my skills when I graduated and ready to learn the added skills along the way. I didn't even have a résumé, and was offered a full time position on a super busy med-surg floor AND I was very pregnant also. Better times, I suppose.
What year was this? There is a lot of liability today when nursing students work alone. We would never have been allowed to give IV medication alone without an instructor or nurse preceptor. Students are not allowed access to the Pyxis either.
In any job there is a training period where you get used to their systems which is free. You go to school for a degree so that you are educated and knowledgeable to qualify for the position. Two different things with the former expense being taken on by the business. Anyone fresh out of school without no hands on job experience in their chosen field but is hired because they qualify is always hired at the lowest rate of pay for the position. You get paid more depending on years of experience and the business should be pairing the new people with experienced people so they can impart knowledge to the new one. There shouldn't have to be a contract making a new person stay if the business is a decent place to work.
I took a job , experienced bullying, racism and favoritism by the management team in the ER. I ended up quitting and now they’re asking 10k repayment, how crazy is that ??
What happened, did you have to go to court? Did you have to pay?
We had lots of “techs, aids” etc working in the ED while going to college. They saw, experienced and knew what they wanted.
I wish there was more opportunity for experienced nurses who have worked outside the hospital but want to return to the hospital. I have been in other areas, related to maternal-child health as well as other areas, and have wanted to return to the hospital fbc, but because it has been 11 years since I have worked in the hospital, I have been unable to get back in, even with 2 nurse refresher courses (one online only because of covid and now hands on one day at the end), and will have to follow with a nurse preceptorship I would pay $1600 to attend and then MAYBE I would have a chance at re-entering the hospital only in med-surg.
They should be able to hire u and have a good training program for u. I can't believe they want you do all that ($1,600) and to only allow for medsurg when that's not even your background and desire of interest. They know very few people want to work in med/surg. I'd relocate temporarily in a desperate area or pay that $1,600. Do medsurg and quit at your very earliest convenience. I wouldn't do more than 6 months in medsurg and tell the hiring managers the truth when applying for ob/l&d/motherbaby. My passion is in this area. I could only get here if I entered med/surg first bc the surrounding hospitals required it bc i took too long of a break from hospital nursing. I'd start applying at the 4 month mark. If they want to be cut throat with business, u do the same. Take control of your career.
I never worked in a hospital and was out of the profession completely for 15 yrs. I know a friend on a hospital floor, and they agreed to hire me and train me on the job. One should NOT have to pay with the shortage of nurses. They should pay you 🙏. Good luck.
In California second semester ADN program we were able to put in IVs
I am not sure in hospitals in Texas, but this is culture in most places in Dallas & Fortworth Areas!
Thank you for standing up for what is right. I wish more medical Professionals would stand up today and bring back real health care for the American people. You are a hero. You believe in ,first do no harm, the oath of the medical profession.
If a job pays for you to get some kind certified or degreed training, from a unaffiliated 3rd party, it is reasonable that they hold you responsible for some period of time in recompense for part of the cost associated with that training. It is NOT reasonable to simply make it a blanket condition of employment to retain people. It is not reasonable to leverage this potential fine for on the job training/experience. I would support federal legislation that made this part of labor law.
Btw. I graduated in 1979.
Valuable points were shared. However. This discussion could have been more effective if the participants were limited to 3 individuals. In some parts, the guests were cutting each other or talking at the same time, or speeding up because the others also wanted air time. if it was necessary to invite all of them, then the others could have been interviewed on a different day so all of them can better be heard. And also, so much information were compacted in one sitting, instead of focusing on the main topic. Diffrent topics even if they are related can be discussed separately.
When I was in school I was able to do IVs IVPush and start an IV pump as long as I was with my instructor
@1:35:20 Andrew LaCivita is THE BEST RECRUITER AND FORMER CORP INTERVIEW TRAINER ON TH-cam I use the Andrew when I switch from the education system to the Healthcare System and boy oh boy Andrew was such a help and a blessing to transfer my skills over and help me to ask the right questions when it came down to what I need to know before I interview in the healthcare sector.
I went to an excellent Nursing school and worked in an excellent hospital. Went to ADN training school.
Same here!
I bet there would be more time to teach skills if they cut out all projects related to nursing diagnoses...
They never paid in full but in increments so if you quit you don’t owe them anything.
Funny commercial. Air France. Hysterical.
Mr midwife on point also.. .. feedback falls on deaf ears.. I have left, but did NOT WANT TO.
Contracts and tuition reimbursement s are different!
Talking about education: I have a masters in Comparative Education, have taught in multiple countries/cultural settings, been part of groups assessing education programs at a university, and am currently in a high ranking nursing school in the USA. - Would be happy to contribute to a discussion on this topic from the perspective as an actual educator and published educational social scientist who is 'suffering' through nursing school.
Your credentials sound silly, superficial and superfluous, and about as relevant to nursing as teats on a boar hog. You pumps and pearls "educators" are what's wrong with nursing today.
Never heard of that
Scotttttt, Airplane ✈️ genius!
Hilarious about showing up to your bartender job after you'd been fired!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I’d love to work with nurse Adriane!
Rse Adrian rn... is on point!
I would love to work with Adriane. We know!
20 weeks? I had 2!
😬
Nurses aren't residences
As a Nursing Preceptor for new graduate nurses, it was explained to me that it cost the hospital at least $40,000 per year to complete all that new graduates needed to know to work in a trauma center hospital. This included paying me extra to help and share my nursing knowledge and critical thinking skills working side by side for a minimum of 90 working days until they were ready to be on their own.
Who pays extra to nursing preceptors???
@@MNP208 there's a few places that pay extra. I think it's sort of like the charge nurse differential.
that may very well be true but just imagine if that nurse stays for just 1 year and a half. They are going to recoup that money so fast. And if they stay 3 or 4 years the hospital may as well pay that same nurse a bonus that's worth 40k net over the period of 4 pay periods.
The hospital paid my additional salary, which was more than charge nurse as I was responsible for his/her training. They were required to stay for one year. All of my orienteers had to have their BSN. Each one went on to stay on the unit, but some transferred to ED, ICU, Cardiology etc. Every year, after on year of service, the hospital gave EVERY employee a significant bonus, which I am sure helped with retention.
@@susansullivan5203 I work in the outpatient setting. There are no differentials for precepting that I am aware of. There is a LOT to learn in the medical specialties, urgent care, primary care, etc. You pretty much have to teach yourself.
They can bill me......
What good is this if not legal? This is just WAG.. stuff . I think institutions are legally bound to pay for work performed..
Hospital’s and Dr offices are making a name for themselves worst then used car salesman’s
It’s a trap 😢
That's right 40%
Yes, get that chisme 😂
🤣🤣🤣AIRFRANCE