Straight guy here, if not for these videos you upload I probably would not be as aware of LGBTQ perspectives on various topics. I appreciate that you do speak out in this venue, so I can learn more.
Gay guy here. I'm super glad he uploads these things because I was in the closet for a long time, and I'm not nearly as educated on LGBTQ issues as I'd like to be, even though I'm out now.
as Millarca said, we definitely appreciate your openness. Minority groups can only start gaining acceptance when members of the majority are willing to hear their narrative. It's always a little warming when people like you are actually interested in and open to hearing other perspectives :)
I think the “bury your gays” is a good example of what the video is talking about. People defend certain instances of this happening because if fits that specific story, and I too have seen this executed well. But that’s not the point, the point is that the trope has become a pattern, it might be well or badly executed but it’s still perpetuating a pattern that’s harmful to the lgbt+ community.
I was about to make a comment about Bury your Gays, and then I saw someone has, not only done it already, but expressed it perfectly. I see many people mention instances in which lgbtq representation was done and done well, only to end with the lgbtq person getting killed in the end. And whether or not the "twist" was well executed and made sense in the story, it still adds another nail to the coffin of lgbtq people being capable of happiness.
I think there should be another trope called the eunuch gay. It's where the individual comes out as gay but is never seen dating or having sex. I catch that in a lot of shows that just want to have gays for diversity reasons.
I feel an additional issue is the "trap" joke. Popular in the West and goddam played consistently in anime. The hot girl that is a guy cross dressing when it gets to the bedroom. How many comedies use this joke!!!! Many off screen. This has and still is used as a defence in real murders. They were not who I thought they were so I killed them!
I feel like the "trap" phenom is a weird case of art imitating life (and also kind of a vicious cycle). Hyperfeminized male characters have been an anime staple almost since the beginning. For a long time, no one thought anything of it (at least not in the anime-watching circles I was part of in the late 90s and early 00s). It was just a stylistic choice. Then a bunch of immature fans started turning it into a joke and the idea of the "trap" was truly born. Cue a metric butt-ton of anime creators turning around and deliberately including "trap" characters in their works. Cue even *more* immature fans laughing their asses off at anyone who doesn't conform to traditional gender stereotypes. Or maybe I was just really lucky in the anime fans I met back in the day and this sort of thing has been going on longer than I like to think...
Glad you mentioned it, OP. I hope you all saw or will see Contrapoints' recent video on the topic (it's awesome, trust me): th-cam.com/video/PbBzhqJK3bg/w-d-xo.html
It's worse than that since a lot of the characters that get labeled that way aren't men at all but meant to be trans women. This vid goes into more detail and is the one referenced in the Contrapoints video. th-cam.com/video/nxeB2AXIG3E/w-d-xo.html
There's an anime called Ouran High School Host Club where the main characters dad and a few of his friends cross dress just because it's fun. And not even in a cruel kinda way, they just like it. It isn't even played for comedy.
Even Haruhi herself is a cross dresser, more or less because she is treated as a guy by most people outside the Host Club. That is, the 'clientele' of the Host Club believe Haruhi to be a guy. She does go so far as to say she doesn't care how people see her. Haruhi is herself but people assume her to be a guy based on how she dresses.
Love Ouran! Yes, the depiction of Haruhi’s dad is by far one of the best LGBTQ+ things I’ve seen in anime. And I love that they kept Haruhi’s otter indifference to her gender to the very end of the manga, she never went through the trope of wanting to be seen or treated as a woman even after she realized she was in love.
I really liked that show for that reason! I'm the same way where I know I am female, but I couldn't care less if I get misgendered (unless it is in a situation where I feel unsafe or that I am making someone else feel unsafe, so mostly public restrooms). My friend drunkenly asked me if I wanted to be called mister and I told her I didn't give a shit what she called me.
I love Haruhi's dad! He's still a very comedic character, but the joke isn't "dude dresses like a woman". The joke is "protective father loves his little girl". He's so adorable. I think it might be time for my yearly re-watch of OHSHC.
This video was posted just after my parents told me that being Bi was a 'kink' and they would disown me if I was or dated a bisexual. Guess I'm not coming out anytime soon. Great video and I'm glad for your more educational videos - they're really eye-opening.
I grew up in an openly homophobic family. It took me 10 years to understand that the warm, fuzzy feeling I had for a friend was indeed a crush. I stayed in the bi-closet until my parents died. For safety or cowardice... ...I can't tell them apart.
Most people dont even know what a kink is. In oppositions christianity has lots of kinks, incliding sm. I hope you move out soon and that your parents have a change of heart. Or are getting more accepting. You can still date if i see that right. And can still figure things out if you dont make it public to everyone. You are valuable, as are your atrractions. If your parents dont understand that, its their problem. Dont ever doubt that. You dont need their validation. Good luck in the future.
I'm sorry for your parents. When I came out to my mother, her first reaction was "omg, don't EVER tell your father! It would kill him." ... her second was "you were sexually abused at some point and that's why you're like this, isn't it?" To this day, I'm honestly not sure which felt like more of a slap in the face.
Always looking forward to these videos to help me broaden my own view of the LGBTQ society representation in media since I like learning how the patterns form and why it's wrong. I do fall into the patterns sometimes for LGBTQ representation but didn't realise it was a issue since I focus more on disability representation but nice to fill in my lack of knowledge.
It's fair point about stereotyping and it has been done to many minorities not just LGBTQ. The representation of African-Americans have similar issues like the Magic Negro stereotype.
Yeah... Bagger Vance..., etc. It feels like another mis-step, like the sacrificial partner, in a cop film. I suspect it's a stage that needs to be passed through. As representation increases, in front of the camera and behind the scenes. The dialogue will become more refined. Regarding Who, I was amazed, at the reaction to Bill. Some newspapers in the UK were hysterical objecting even to her name, before any episodes were broadcast. I find it flummoxing after RTD, wrote Jack kissing the Doctor (when he was male?!) passing without comment.... Or none that I noticed. Probably just glad to have Who back after such a long break. Bill's sexuality, was just an aspect of her, rather than defining. For me it didn't offend.
Hmmm... I absolutely agree about crossdressing being played for laughs is a problem by how frequently its done, and was something I noticed before. So I was kind of blindsided when you mentioned the casting decisions ("casting a cis man to play a trans woman"), because that hadn't occurred to me as a problem. My kneejerk reaction was to say "Well, that's the way it should be - you can kind of tell whether someone's body/sex matches the gender they're trying to express or not". Which... surprised me, because I always thought of myself as a trans ally, and I think to a certain extent I'd grown complacent in trying to observe my own beliefs and biases. So... that's a long-winded way of saying "Thanks for bringing this to my attention."
you'd be better off saying you can sometimes tell, I'd wager you've encountered transgender people without ever knowing it. Hormones are fucking magic www.reddit.com/r/transtimelines/top/
I just want to see a happy lesbian monogamous couple with their babies in something, anything. (As a bisexual woman engaged to a women, I just want to see a happy ending for a couple like us)
It's kind of a cheat, but the latter seasons of the anime Sailor Moon. I know the 90s dub changed them to "cousins," but Sailors Uranus and Neptune are in a committed lesbian relationship. They appear in two seasons, the third and the fifth (and they're in the final 3 arcs of the manga as well). Haruka is often mistaken for a boy/young adult male, and plays into that for the sake of their mission (uncover the bad guys at a school), and Michiru is coded as very femme. They make sexually suggestive comments to one another, and each flirt with other people, but at the end of the day, they are willing to do anything to keep the other safe and happy. They're shown at the beginning of the fifth season living in a house with Setsuna/Sailor Pluto (who in the 90s anime comes across as asexual to me, even though the manga makes it clear she's got an unrequited thing for a man) and raising a baby/young girl together. When I first started questioning my sexuality/identity and coming to terms with it, back in the early 2000s, they were my "power couple" - the positive look at the type of relationship I was beginning to have, and wanted to have. The new dub cleaves much more closely to the original dialogue, so no more "cousins", thank goodness.
I haven't actually finished it yet, but The Up Side of Unrequited, by Becky Albertali (can I spell, no, I'm sorry) aka the lady who wrote Simon vs the Homosapiens Agenda. The book freatures a happy long term Lesbian (?) couple, as the main character's mom's. ((Also they get married, or at least engaged, I haven't finished it)) They play a pretty big part in the book, so yeah..
@@TheUmbravulpes I'm aware. And I'm excited to find someone else who knows about Takarazuka! Sailor Moon is what got me into Takarazuka in the first place (the live-action Sailor Moon musicals, specifically - and Haruka/Michiru is DEFINITELY played up for romance in those). My wife and I have a collection of DVDs and CDs and Chirashi and the lot, and we went to see the OG Chicago in NYC a couple summers back. If I'm remembering correctly, originally Takeuchi wanted Haruka and Michiru to BE Takarisiennes, but that would have made them too old for the stories she wanted to tell. The company would, I agree. Though they are quite happy to create "queer moments" in photos to sell magazines - I've got several Le Cinqs that feature two otokoyaku in rather sensual poses with each other (and then there was Ayaki Nao's photobook and the shoot with her sister, who was also a 'sienne). Do you follow current troupes?
Honestly I wish I had a more positive look on cross dressing when I grew up because men look so damn good in a dress and heels! (Not always but a good number)
I want a movie where through out the whole movie the trans character is the gender they want to be but when they look in the mirror they have the body part that they were born with and as they go through the change they slowly become the gender they see themselves as being and what they want to be. So let's say they feel like a female in a man's body, their actor will be female until they look in a mirror or look at their body, people call them he/him to the female actor. As they go through the change the person in the mirror becomes more the female actor then the male actor. Until at the end they look in the mirror and see the female actor. (I hope this made sense? Sorry if my wording was poor or if I gave off any weird vibes, tell me if there is anything I can fix here?)
I feel like this would be an interesting college project or indy project as an art piece. If it's made via mainstream Hollywood it might have the problem of giving uneducated individuals the wrong idea of what it's like to be transgender. This does give me an idea for a painting though. :)
It might be useful to use the terms afab and amab (assigned female/male at birth) instead of female and male. For example you could say a trans character played by an afab person until looking in the mirror, in which a amab person is reflected. For films about transition, however, the community finds it a *LOT* better to have a "fully transitioned" person be present and just detransition them with makeup on stuff to not only give trans actors a place, but break the *implicit* ideas that cis (non-trans) people are what trans people want to turn themselves into and that a trans actor's "end result" isn't something to aspire to be.
Public opinion is like steering a big ship, it doesn't change quickly but videos like yours help nudge it in the right direction. My own experience as a gay man growing up in the 70's and 80's very much echo yours. The only gay characters on TV in those days were people like John Inman, Larry Grason and Quentin Crisp, portrayed and portraying gay men as camp, effeminate and cross dressers. I vividly remember seeing "The Naked Civil Servant" for the first time as a teenager, realising that he was gay like me, but there was a strong disconnect between the way he acted and the way I acted and wanted to act. Thank heavens things have changed and are still changing for the LGBTQ+ community.
Interesting perspective. I'm straight but I'm Puerto Rican so I'm in a different minority and it got me thinking about all the times growing up that I wondered why Puerto Ricans and other latinos were almost always portrayed in media as one-dimensional villains. It was very frequent and socially accepted for the longest time. It's still happening, and the current climate isn't helping. Like you say, it's the pattern that's pervasive. But I hope things will get better, for my community and yours.
Have you seen or read Princess Jellyfish? One of the main character is a cross dresser and describes himself as normal. I’m curious if you’d like him or the series. I’d also love a top ten list of what you consider good representation in different media. Like specific characters in movies, books, etc. and how affectively they represent a certain group.
Nathaniel, you're a lovely person. You continue to always present well-reasoned, thoughtful discussions of the topics you cover, and you never let your emotions get the best of you, which adds enormous credence to your arguments, especially with people who might otherwise dismiss them. Keep up the good work.
Really glad you're tackling this, and extending it to other groups. I grew up in the 70s as a Disabled kid, and the only representation of a wheelchair user on TV was Ironside - played by a non-disabled actor. Even now, British TV has only recently cast authentic Disabled actors. And last year's Oscars saw the first award to a Deaf actor since Marlee Matlin in 1987. Too often non-disabled actors are winning awards playing us, when they could have been actually Disabled. Cripping-Up is every bit as wrong as Blackface.
I love your nail polish! It is soo awesome! I agree, understand, appreciate and respect everything you said in this video. I had thought about this before but the way you articulated your argument was pretty close to perfect. Thankyou for the education and the articulation. Keep doing what you do.
This is really relevant to my video essay I did on representation in television of celibacy, nonamory, asexuality, and aromanticism. People keep telling me I'm getting hung up on a character that is a psychopath or sociopath or whatever when the point is that it's a pattern that the nearly only characters AT ALL allowed to not "Get" or "want" sex and romance are psychopaths and whatnot... etc etc. Stuff like that throughout my video.
Autistic characters are your only other aroace rep from what I've seen as an autistic person, despite the fact that most of us are not aroace. In our case it's used as infantilisation
Right there are plenty of allistic aros and aces, and plenty of allo autistic folks, and while some intersectional representation that shows people can be both aroace and autistic would be great if done really well, it's done horribly in most shows where it's more "autism coding" that then "leads" to them not "understanding" (nor wanting) sex or romance or any of those types of relationships.
It is driving me nuts there was an Old Australian Series where there was a Man who cross dressed. It was a secret from His Wife and family but in the story he came out to them and started a society for Men who also cross dressed it was done so well and with such heart I really wish I could remember what series it was as it was some time ago. I am really glad you shine a light on this stuff as it is easy for people to overlook the patterns and the problems associated with LGBQT representation. It feels like it was taking some great leaps forward and suddenly feels like we have stepped backwards in so many ways. Representation is so vital it can literally save lives. Not the same thing but as a plus sized woman growing up and having people Like Dawn French, Joe Brand, and Magda Subanski on my TV screens showed me I could do what I wanted fearlessly. I cannot imagine not having that or how much harder life would have been for me had I not had those role models. Everyone deserves to see well written stories, acted by hopefully actors who truly get the roles and also to see some of themselves in the characters. Something often forgotten is that consumers and creators have more power than ever. There is crowd funding, writing your own work and getting it together yourself etc yes it is a lot more work but it is usually these things that tend to turn the tide and bring things more mainstream as consumers pouring money into more indy projects of a certain type makes the big studios etc pay attention. (Just thought I would add this as it is something I remind friends working in the Industry that they have more power than they know Hugs)
This concept of patterns vs individual cases, is something I've been aware of I've never been able to put it into words -which makes it hard for other people understand what I mean. So thank you for that.
It's a difficult topic. The problem isn't really what we have, it's what we _don't have._ And when looking at specific instances, it's quite unfair to criticize one person or their work for not being everything you wish they were. But at the same time, it's difficult to point at something that... _isn't there._ Denouncing the patterns is probably the best way to go about it but it means that since no one person is responsible, no one person _has_ to help fixing it. Sometimes I feel like the choice is between shaming random people into taking responsibility or wait for them to do so spontaneously while they're not even aware of the problem... Which can be frustrating. I guess our best option is to do just what you're doing, talking about it until people are aware of the problem and hope that they'll care.
Hello from Denmark. This is a great channel. I am a married CIS guy. Me and the wife try to be allies to all LBGTQ+ people. So I just want to say hello, and thank you for the great work you and others do. 🇩🇰❤️🏳️🌈
There were a couple of episodes in "Ally McBeal" were some co-workers had been fired for "being freaks", such as being too ugly, too fat, mentally challenged and one was a cross-dresser. I thought that was a pretty positive example (not them being fired, of course, but them being defended against this injustice), because it wasn't really played for laughs, the people were taken rather seriously by the show as they were portrayed as caring and supportive of each other and respecting one another for what they were. It was really nice to watch.
19:52 You describe me so much in that. I so often overexplain, not because I'm lecturing, but because I want people to understand where I'm coming from. When I take things for granted, I get told I'm being stupid. So I tend to explain things from the ground up and then get teased about lecturing people. Sometimes even by the same people.
0:28 Seeing you "switch the look" in your older videos... I can't believe it took this long for me to equate it with Mr. Rogers (💙) and how he would switch his look at the start and end of each episode. It just hit me and I had to pause to let it sink in! Not sure if there was any intentional connection but regardless, I like it. 💙 Even if I'm the only one who had this pop in their head, it puts a smile on my face each time and now I finally realize why. 💡😊 Anyway, just had to share. Back to the video! (Also, "switch the look" would be cool on a t-shirt or something. 😊)
Your nail polish is beautiful and I need it in my life Also, literally the only instance I can think of where crossdressing isn't played for laughs is Eddie izzards dressed to kill, which, seeing as it's literally just him dressing how he wants to on stage, *and* is literally a stand up comedy, it's a pretty bloody tenuous thing.
Pretty sure Kinky Boots (the movie, don't know about the musical I've heard there is) didn't overly play the crossdressing itself for laughs (more the reactions others had to it). It's been years since I've seen it, though, so I could be misremembering and it might just be an example of "fair for its time". But you're right. There is a serious derth of crossdressing not being played for laughs.
@@HereComesPopoBawa exactly. And if it's ok for women to wear trousers (and for many years it wasn't, it was literally illegal), it should be ok for men to wear clothes and accessories that are traditionally female. That's a flavour of feminism I can get behind. One where liking feminine things makes a man no less of a man that a woman liking masculine things. There's this idea in our society I think, that to be feminine is to be less than, be that an actual woman, a crossdressing man (because when was the last time a woman in men's clothes caused anyone to bat an eyelid), a transwoman. And the idea that there must be something wrong with a man who purposefully wants to present as more feminine is pretty toxic if you ask me, but if you really look its right there in plain sight.
@@CailinRuaAnChead - Agreed. But not only that, in a modern global multicultural environment, people are slow to grasp that "traditionally male" and "traditionally female" are not universal, and nobody is obliged to conform to traditions of others. Is wearing a Thai men's skirt in the US "traditionally" male or female? Most people I know around here aren't sufficiently knowledgeable to speak of anyone's traditions. If I were to apply for jobs, or appear in court or do some other important function in my area wearing indigenous clothing, people would insist that I was "trying to make a point" rather than simply exist. People pay lip service to tradition, but it's often merely a guise for their conformist attitudes and imperialism.
@@HereComesPopoBawa yep. And that's rub isn't it? If you don't conform to *western* standards of cis gender and beauty /masculinity etc you are less than. It's not even people doing it on purpose though it's so deeply ingrained in our culture that it's subconscious, which makes it pretty tough to root out. It starts with sending kids these little subliminal messages, when the toy aisle is split into girls and boys, and on the girls side is dolls, and make-up and toy tills to play shopping. On the boys is diggers and stuff to build and things that generally say 'you can do stuff that will change the world'. There is nothing inherently wrong with either of these sets of toys, they all have their merits. The problem lies with splitting them, and saying that this is for girls - you shop, you look after babies, you look pretty, and this is for boys - you build, you fight, you do the machines. But the boys should be allowed to play with the dolls and the make up, the girls should be allowed to play with the swords. They don't want to though because of the subtle cues they pick up on that that's not for them. It the reason why men in dresses is funny in the first place. "oh haha, a man being all famine and not manly, how absurd". We've got a long way to go. Perhaps we'll get there in a generation or two.
I think that To Wong Foo Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar, and Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, are the only two movies about crossdressing/LGBTQ representation where the crossdressing is not played for laughs, that I know of, at least. It's been a long while since I've seen either, so my memory of them night not be 100% accurate. Maybe you could do a follow-up video about those films if you think that they warrant mentioning along with this topic.
I was just thinking about those two movies. I am not sure about Priscilla, Queen of the Desert as I have not seen it, however, To Wong Foo, did have some comedic moments, however, I suppose it showed more that crossdressers are normal and have their own problems that most people could not understand such as when they were pulled over by that sheriff who had sexually assaulted Patrick Swayze's character only to discover he was a man. Being seen as "You need to be this way" and not wanting to be and growing through the experience of helping the small town.
Well, there is a Spanish movie called All about my mother, which has good trans (it has a woman interpreting a transwoman) and also crossdressing representation. But well, the director is Almodóvar, who was a part of the Spanish sexual revolution of the 80's (he himself being homosexual) and has always tried to represent people of the LGTB+ community, as well as other marginalized groups, in his films.
What also came to my Mind when seeing this video was I also watched To Wong Foo/ Priscilla Qotd- When thinking of Men Dressing as Women (Gay Subtext in both films one set in ("U.S.A ") another Set In ("Australia").
I started watching you when I found your first LGBTQ+ video about queerbaiting, and I’ve watched almost everything you’ve made since, and many of what you made before. I love the work you do here, and as a gay man myself, I really appreciate having someone that shares a lot of my interests who can speak to some of the issues and points that I’ve tried to communicate myself, In a manner that’s far more well-spoken, well thought out, concise, and thoughtful than I could ever hope to be. Thank you for what you do here, it means a lot.
I've learned so much watching this channel. You know, I learned to question things I used to defend out of ignorance. It has really affected my work as an editor in a positive way. Thank you for that.
I’ve been on holidays for the last few days without good internet or a lot of time for TH-cam. I saw that you put this up and all I’ve wanted to do is watch it. And now I’m finally home and have watched it, all I can say is it delivered. So well reasoned and eloquently spoken, and a topic that has also been on my mind for a long time. I love your LGBT+ videos
Yeah, it is nice to get such a detailed explanation; it helps make your situation much more understandable. Also, and again, your tone during these videos really helps make them approachable.
Have you watched The Celluloid Closet? There's a segment in there where they talk about the stock character of the 'sissy'. Quentin Crisp is being interviewed and says this: "Well, sissy characters in movies were always a joke. There's no sin like being a woman. When a man dresses as a woman, the audience laughs. When a woman dresses as a man, nobody laughs." In a sense, nothing has really changed. The instances you've mentioned aren't sissy characters by the strictest definition of the term, but they are men dressing as women - and that's a joke. It says something about how society actually values women and, because nobody laughs when a woman dresses as a man, how society values men and, perhaps to a greater extent, perceived masculinity. I would really love to read your book - I've been saving so I can get the paperback version.
This is such a needed viewpoint to express, thank you! I may have missed a video, but this video has sparked my memory of another, similar, conversation topic that's starting to circle around booktube recently though not outright. That being that 'representation' in a work does not automatically equate to quality work--in cases that don't include recycling like this or baiting. It's hard for me to not feel guilty if I don't fall madly in love with something because it as Topic/Representation insert here because, you know, how dare I deny an own-voices work or a contribution to the entertainment industry. It's not that these things aren't needed or valid, it just doesn't instantly make something a masterpiece to me. And I still feel terrible about it.
Part of the problem from my perspective is unless people have a vested interest, they tend to only look at examples in isolation rather than at the big picture overall and need to have the fact there is a wider angle pointed out to them. Or to use your example, they may see a brick or some grout, but are okay with that because they don't notice there's a wall in the first place. Most people arguing in good faith tend to come around when this is pointed out to them, particularly when done with the consideration and thoughtfulness you exhibit here. I agree there's most likely no big conspiracy involved in the sameness of portrayals, simply the media's tendency to lean on what's worked in the past. And as you say they're not all bad, just lacking in variety. Much like, to cite some other examples, being The Girl or The Fat One. With luck, more people with nuanced and diverse stories to tell will be afforded that opportunity as time goes on. I know I'd be willing to contribute to crowdfunding to help see that happen.
Concerning these topics, I'd be very interested in your opinion on the film 'The Danish Girl' and on the series 'The Alienist' (currently on Netflix) if you have seen either of these. In both cases I'm kind of confused about what to make of the way characters were represented. Btw: Thanks for doing episodes like this, they are always a pleasure to watch.
Very interesting. Over in the UK, years ago, we had a long running storyline about a trans woman character in the soap Coronation St, for which they cast a cis woman (so matching the gender transitioned to) and they handled it pretty accurately as I recall - so there are some exceptions that are a *bit* better, but still the minority.
Going with your wall analogy, if every brick in a wall is flawed it's still going to be a good wall. But if every brick has precisely the same crack then chances are the wall will be very weak as that is now a major design flaw. If you tap the one brick the others around it that are cracked in precisely the same way are not strong enough to protect that one bricks cracks and it makes it much easier to take down the wall. That is the reason patterns are a problem. Excellent video.
On the topic of public perception: For a long time, people around me believed me to be gay just because of the way I dress and behave, so when I got a girlfriend, they were obviously fairly surprised. Then, after we broke up, they went right back to thinking I was gay. When I told a good friend of mine that I identified as bisexual he told me this. I had no idea. Because it didn’t matter to me, I don’t identify as bisexual because I dress or behave a certain way but because I can be attracted to both female and male individuals and this freedom of choice is the reason why it is that way. I always found it very strange how it could be that people assume somebody to have a certain sexuality by just looking at the surface. There is so much more to that than just appearance. So much more.
I've had this exact thought in my head that happens every time I get into a debate about this kind of thing, but could never find the right way to say it, until now. You brought order to my chaotic thoughts, and I thank you for that.
Im not sure if you’ve spoken about this before but I’d love to hear your input on the movie To Wong Foo Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar. On a slightly unrelated note I really appreciate you making these videos. You are such a beautiful person and your reasonableness is sooo refreshing. Thank you for being you and sharing that with us! ♥️♥️♥️
I am so glad you did this video- I think this argument is hugely helpful to the argument of not casting cis actors for trans roles, but also why it's not ok to have white actors play Asian roles or able-bodied actors play roles of ppl w/ disabilities. I am someone who agrees with this argument but have a hard time explaining it to others, so I'm glad I have this video to share with people :) Also I am glad you showed your book cover because I never knew your name before! I always just think of you as the Council of Geeks and never thought to look into your actual name *facepalm*
This reminds me of this one instance where me and some friends were talking about the bechdal test. Before I could barely get anything out they immediately went on a rant at how bs they thought the bechdal test was and then went on listing great movies with great female characters that don't pass it, missing the fact that the whole point of the test is not to use it to judge the quality of individual movies but to judge trends in movies as a whole.
The problem is the patterns, but there is also a huge problem in how those patterns get addressed by a lot of people in our community. Even if the problem people have with an individual piece of media is how it fits a troublesome pattern, most of the criticism is centered around sinking that piece of media as though it is were avatar for the entire pattern. I have no problem with people viewing media critically and recognizing and talking about these problematic patterns (I think it’s necessary for there to be change) but when every single instance of imperfect representation gets so severely problematized and campaigned against to the point where even just that little bit of ground that we have fought so hard for decades to even get that sliver of representation is relinquished, there is a huge problem. I’m talking about people who hate Tim Curry‘s guts because he played Dr. Frank-N-Furter and/or dismiss any-and-all LGBT characters written or performed by cishet writers/actors on principle, even if it’s a jump forward in representation and they’re extremely responsive to critique (like the McElroys with LGBT characters Lup, Taako, Aubrey, etc. in The Adventure Zone). There’s A lot of impatience, gate keeping, and hostility toward nuance or ambivalence from a looooooooot of people trying to drive the conversation of LGBT representation, and that is a big ‘ol shot in the foot when it comes to progressing past these problematic patterns. because even if people recognize in theory that it is the pattern that is the problem rather than the individual piece of media, they don’t act that way.
Question. Would you throw The Birdcage in this pattern? And if not, where does it fall for you? Also have you seen Kinky Boots? It's probably not quite on topic, but it's a personal favorite of mine. Thought I'd ask.
I don't know if you're old enough to remember Flip Wilson and Milton Berle as a child I would see them dressed as women comedy shows and people thought it was hysterical. But only because they were pretending. I'm 50 and as a kid growing up anytime you did see a lgbtq character in a movie or TV show it was mostly As comic relief. I feel that changed somewhat. I work with a young man who modeled and his modeling portfolio he was in Male clothing and female clothing. I remember him showing pictures to an older lady who had worked with us and her reaction was less than enthusiastic. He did not get upset he just took it in stride. Because he's happy with who he is. Great video so I'm happy to be a patreon supporter
I don’t know if you’ve heard of it but David Walliams wrote a book called The Boy in the Dress and it’s been adapted into a TV movie. It’s not a great movie but the kid cross dressing isn’t played as a joke as far as I can remember and it has a really wholesome ending.
I strongly agree on the issue of cis actors playing the 'starting point' rather than the 'end point' of gender. The only major example I can think of where a cis-woman played a trans-woman was Transamerica. It was easier to see the gender disphoria when a "real" woman looked like a man in a dress than when (for example) John Lithgow played a non-passing transwoman. I'm aware that''s not the only problem. BTW, I was one of the background extras on Queer as Folk USA *cough* Canada. There was a tension between the Queer background people wanting to have an accurate depiction of ourselves and the studio wanting the background to be generic. I'm a visible Jew - Sharon Gless actually went to bat for me wearing a kippa on set. We had background players with a range of ages, ethnicities and body types trying not to look like that scene in Being John Malkovitch where everyone is a version of the same white guy.
These videos are important...touching on a quick bit of dialogue...about that much change in several months/ year... These are points that continue to happen ( some of the movies where 50 years ago), and some things haven't changed. Theses videos ( hopefully) will be around for a long time, to illuminate, educate, and entertain generations... And hopefully things will change ( positively) and these videos will just be historical record and not ongoing behaviors.
Awesome video. Your point is solid and, sadly, it’s all too easy to see where these patterns come from and how ingrained they are. Really glad people are talking about it in a clear, concise way. As someone who is gender fluid I guess I was primed to notice these patterns early, too, and the limitations of the gender boxes. A lot of my early life involved frustration because I didn’t match type and I know that’s a common queer experience. On the other hand it’s not surprising non-queer producers don’t even think about the impact of what they’re making. They’ve never had to ask the relevant questions. Love your hair, by the way.
Just a thank you on this one. Not necessarily the same thing, but I've been getting so frustrated with how a trans woman at a Gamestop is all over the place lately. Yes, the constant misgendering can get frustrating, but it's how people believe they are allowed to talk about us (often right to us) where things from entertainment media come back in our faces.
I highly recommend the comic limited series Rising Stars, which has an incredibly sympathetic portrayal of cross-dressing for coming from the ‘90s. It actually has a born male superhero whose powers get much stronger when she lets herself be who she really is.
Forest and trees. If you're only looking at the forest, you might miss the rot in individual trees. But, if you're only looking at individual trees, the whole forest could be chopped down around you without you even noticing. Seeing both the patterns (the broad picture) and examining the individual shows, show-runners, series, films, actors/actresses. etc. is important for informed critique. It's easy to get waylaid by the "but not this one" drawing the focus away from the broader patterns in an effort to waylay the dialogue. This is true of many different things, not just entertainment critique. Often times the broader narrative in one thing even informs and/or transforms the broader narrative of another as both or either reflection or force of change.
Thinking about the Doctor Who example: it actually matters even less that it makes sense in a particular instance because it's a pattern that always happens that particular instance actually loses it's meaning and potential impact (the reason it makes sense) because it's just them doing this one more time. So by repeating a pattern for whatever ridiculous reasons you are also stripping potential meaning away and in essence limiting the language with which we have to discuss things by rendering one aspect meaningless.
Back when it was confirmed that Shiro was gay in Voltron, it started a conversation related to relationships in the show. It happened more in the shipping parts of the fandom, but wasn't exclusive to it. Namely that, some people were say that Shiro could just go without a relationship (an argument used to invalidate ships sometimes) because sometimes people just don't end up in a relationship and that's okay. But the problem with that argument is what you said during the video, more often than not, gay men aren't allowed to end the show in a relationship, they typically stay single either for lack of partners or due to tragedy. So it was important that Shiro end the show in a relationship to hopefully start a new trend of happily paired queer characters in media, especially children and teen's media. Just wanted to share my example. Great video as always!
(Haven't read the comments here so if someone else brought this up cool) I agree with this sentiment overall though I always think LGBTQ creators have more leeway with this than creators who aren't LGBTQ. This is related to the fact that I don't think characters who have stereotypical attributes are inherently bad. They can be written well and be compelling and all that. So while I agree I still think LGBTQ creators should be allowed in a sense to create things that might fall into patterns. They shouldn't be held to always breaking or bursting out of patterns and the like. It's not mandatory and it won't stop a story from being problematic (however one defines that word) but it's something I personally always take into consideration.
Thanks for this video. You put in words what has so often bugged me subconsciously with the depiction of all non-white, non-cis, non-hetero and/or non-male characters in movies. (Probs to your wife) Hollywood just loves its stereotypes far too much.
What fantastic video. i love how succinct and soft spoken you are, I feel it can be easy to be angry and show more hurt about this topic, I certainly would be. Great video, and also love your nail polish :>>
Although I don't believe in gender fluidity and disagree with you on some other controversial things, I appreciate what you've had to say, and I respect your bravery to expose yourself to the internet. I respect your position that the individual works, while they may be defendable in their own ways, do affect the general zeitgeist, potentially in a negative way. Your position on the matter is a more nuanced one that I don't recall hearing before, and I think that's a reasonable stance to take. I find it refreshing to hear that you've given each of those works a critical look instead of having dismissed them all outright as misleading and inaccurate. I personally value artists' freedom of expression and their visions above any sort of obligation to a greater good. I respect that you're reaching out with humility and openness. We're all just trying to make sense of this crazy world, and most of us don't have any ill intent.
As someone who recently came out as Transgender Girl (like two months ago) I deeply appreciate this insight and your openness. It shows humbleness to speak as you do about this matter even admit you don't have all the answers. I also envy your lack of body hair, I wish I had less :(. But yeah, this is an extremely great take and I enjoy your take on this matter and your take on LGBT+ stuff in general especially since I am still coming to terms with who I am. Your bravery to present yourself so proudly is amazing
Funny realization: My parents didn't flicker an eyelash at Tootsie or Mrs. Doubtfire (and neither did I). They also did not have a problem with The gender-bending in Cabaret or in Barbara Streisand's performance in Yentl. Bu\t in each film, there was some reason. In Cabaret, IIRC, it was stage performance (I haven't seen the movie since college-age). In the others, thee's always a reason and it's a comedy. Oh, and Klinger in MASH, of course. But oh, attempting to explain Boy George when he appeared in the A Team episode, and when my parents separately heard one of his songs over the intercom while at Red Lobster (er, no, that's a guy, Mom and Dad, he's called Boy George, he's British, he's in a pop rock band called Culture Club....) They were not ready. I was trying hard to be diplomatic. It was awkward and now funny. But yeah, these instances show how (straight and homophobic) people could rationalize, oh, it's OK because it's a performance, or because it's a comedy, or it's to keep a job or to keep contact with a dad's children.... -- Would they have been OK if it was just because a man or woman felt genuinely somewhere in between genders? (I'm cisgender, but didn't even know that word until a few years ago.) But what about others, in general, would they have been oOK with other people being other than cis or straight? Unlikely...or else I never knew if they were ore accepting.
While the pattern that Council of Geeks is talking about is (maybe) less damaging, it's still not great. But it's maybe a milder case (or not milder?) of another pattern or stereotype: the perception of any boy/man as a "sissy" or "girly" or effeminate ("fem") gay, or maybe even "campy" or "flamer" (the last two might be too much, within the community, but I think it's how these are lumped together by the phobic portion of the straight community. In other words, men or boys seen as more effeminate and gay are equated with being like girls or women, cross-dressing, all sorts of stereotypical perceptions of males who are less masculine, more feminine in any way (or gay) as if all gay men (and gay boys) are automatically girlish, womanly, effeminate, therefore less manly or unmanly. Note how that also is mysogynist and belittles women and girls, at the same time as it tries to belittle the boys and men who are seen as anything other than hyper-masculine men, super macho, big and strong ... oh, you could get lost in the stereotypes in all sides in this, right? Note I'm not approving of this, and note, I grew up having to fight against how I was perceived too, even though I'd like to think I wasn't as ... whatever ... as those other boys or men thought. Or that from an early age, since first allowed to choose my own clothes, I'd avoid certain things that might seem too girly, even though they were definitely boys' clothes (patterns, colors, styles). ... At college-age, I even avoided the Miami Vice look because, tall, pale, skinny, still not filled out, wavy hair, slightly higher speaking voice ... I was afraid the look would immediately seem "too gay" and my cover would be blown (by then, I knew I was gay but still hadn't come out.) ... In hindsight, if the guys on Miami Vice could wear that with no objections, and Corey whichever in the Lost Boys could wear that look, then why was I worried? (Yes, I know there was something going around whether the character in Lost Boys was gay.) But my point there still reveals a lot of my mindset and social strictures. So what about all that? -- Why is it that our wider culture is so afraid of masculine versus feminine roles or perceived behavior or of sexua orientation, that clothing and mannerisms, hairstyle or hair length, any of it, is so big an issue or problem? (At the same time, it was OK for a boy or man to wear a pink shirt, if it was an appropriately male dress shirt, and one guy, very straight, could wear a pink shirt for a surfer beach bum look ... but other kinds of pink would like not be OK. -- Billy Elliott would not appear until years later, with Michael in that tutu. I believe I only saw it after my parents were gone. -- So we get tis long complicated weird history with how masculinity was restricted and how it was contrasted with (negatively framed) femininity. (Never mind earlier periods in history which would really overcomplicate the discussion.)
Have you seen Dog Day Afternoon it’s very good dealing with this. If a fucking heist movie made by a major studio in the early 70’s where the main character played by Al Pacino who’s robbing a bank to pay for his partner to get realignment surgery can be done sensitively some 40+ years ago why are we getting such offensive dross now. 😡🏳️🌈🏳️🌈 May I pick you up on something the 3 movies you mentioned Like it hot,Tootsie and Doubtfire whilst ok with cross dressing are also injected with a deep homophobia so basically what positive they give with one hand they take away with another. What I’m trying to say (badly) is we’d hopefully be disgusted by a racist movie even though it treated LGBTQI issues well!
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Thank you for this film. If you allow, some rants from a person consuming media in Poland, thus being able to see films unavailable to U.S. viewers: First film I saw a man dressed as a woman (it was not ment as a crossdressing, it was, I suppose, ment to be a joke, a very in your face transvestite hooker) it was in French-Japanese comedy "Wasabi". Not a good inpression, I tell you. The whole film was a hymn for hypermasculinity, and all (I mean all) instances of men not being macho enough was a reason to laugh (in films logic). On the other hand, in Polish mainstream films crossdressers appear only in comedies, only as dragqueens, and almost always as a singer in a gay club. Like a prop on a set, not an actual charakter. Better than being bottom of a joke, but still pretty stereotipical. I do know one instance when it was decided that gender of a person playing the main charakter is not important, just that they want it to be the best performance possible. 2004 Polish film "Mój Nikifor" (My Nikifor) tells story of a real Polish painter, Nikifor. Long story short he was played by one of the best theatrical actresses: Krystyna Feldman, a she was brilliant. Nikifor wasn't at all a transperson, but I think this proves than there are instances where art can go beyond our perception of body.
don't know if you've talked about this yet, but I'm curious about your opinion on Angel from Rent - it's never been confirmed whether Angel is a drag queen or a trans woman, and I'd like your take on it.
I’d love to hear your opinion on the show Tales of the City on Netflix. It’s largely focused on the LGBTQ+ community in San Francisco: I was wondering specifically if it’s representation of transgender people was good representation or not. Love the channel!
Thank you very much for your thoughts on this. I found this video really eye-opening. And the only cross-dressing character in media I can think off right now who isn't just there for comedy and who isn't forced to dress like a women is DEA Agent Dennis, Denise Bryson from Twin Peaks (1991). He dressed as a women for an undercover job, but he kept dressing because he just felt more comfortable when doing so. And he just got accepting reactions from his colleagues. Might not be perfect, but a hole in the pattern wall.
While focusing on the male side of crossdressing I am reminded of two movies with the opposite end; "She's the Man" and "Morocco" which had female characters dressing as men. Although referring to the stereotype within "Will & Grace" I have noticed that the gay and lesbian characters are displayed on a spectrum. An example is with each of the main characters; Will; openly but not expressively nor flamboyantly gay, Jack; openly and flamboyantly gay (acts more like a teenager half the time), Karen; bisexual, but never expressively defined that way, and Grace; depicted as straight (at least twice depicted as potentially bisexual). Note: "Will & Grace" had a gay writer, Jack was played by a gay actor, and Karen was played by a bisexual actress. Although mentioning the "forced into" aspect I was reminded of the character Albert in "The Birdcage" who works as a drag queen while it's Dustin Hoffman's (I might be wrong as I haven't seen the movie in a few years) character who has to in order to leave the club. It seems that until recently acceptance of crossdressing in drag culture didn't become popular until Ru Paul's Drag Race, which one can hope will change the perspective on how it's viewed.
Billy Elliot! I really hope you've seen that movie because it's fantastic (in my opinion) and I think you'll see a positive example of uhhh something you mentioned in this video which I hope you'll feel is outside the pattern. I'm no expert though, so let me know if anyone disagrees :)
Not that I'm a film aficionado, but Priscilla, Queen of the Desert is the only movie I've ever seen that deals with this (among other topics) directly.
I hope that as these sexualities are no longer criminalised and denied, there will be a broader voice coming to the writing and directing as well as the acting. I recall a panel, with six guests. Three straight, three gay and smiling at the balance. Peter Capaldi; Steven Moffat; Pearl Mackie, along with Michelle Gomez; Mark Gatiss; and Matt Lucas. A bonus for those who love socially awkward humour. Michelle Gomez, absolutely unhinged in 'Green Wing'. th-cam.com/video/NSTLqtR0V5E/w-d-xo.html Is this aspect of British comedy seen overseas?
I love these videos. They have helped me so much. They make me feel better about myself. I’m bisexual and gender fluid and watching these videos always makes me feel better.
I think Billy Elliot might be a good example of this sort of representation. I haven't seen it, but there's a boy who goes into ballet. He's mocked for being a ballet dancer throughout the film because it's girly and he's not allowed, and those people are seen as bad. In the end, it's seen as a great transition that he finally got what he wanted and became a ballet dancer.
This is a great idea that I think I had rolling around in my head, but this has definitely solidified it. It will give me a better way to talk about the trend of games with queer dating options tending to make all of the options bi. Or worse, when they aren't bi but will "go gay just for you". I understand wanting to give players choices and what if a person wants to play a [sex] but also really likes [character] who isn't into [sex]? But that's just how life works for people. Sometimes the person you're interested in just will never be interested in you that way simply because of what you have between your legs. As a bi demisexual, the lack of representation outside of dating sims like this makes it feel like they're saying, "oh, you guys don't exist... unless it's convenient for the player". Specific instances can be defended I'm sure, but the pattern is telling. On a different note, has anyone ever come across any media with bigender representation? I can't think of any, and as a bigendered person I'd really like to see some.
An extra layer of frustration is that in so many of these films it would be easy to add on maybe 5 minutes at the start to establish a character cross dressing by choice, perhaps having kept it secret from their family so that later when it's required for the narrative it's just them using already established skills to get through a situation, there can still be tension, and where appropriate comedy around them trying to avoid being found out but without the cross dressing itself being framed as comical or deceptive I appreciate this doesn't solve the trend of films solely having the same kind of representation but it would certainly improve the quality of representation in those kinds of films
Very great points and incredibly informative! I was already very aware because I'm LGBTQ+ myself but have also taken a course in gender studies, but I still learned something new from this video. So thank you!
See, I've kind of come to view (after a long, long, LOOOOONG journey of thinking about it and re-evaluating the issue) that, as you say, since the PATTERNS are what is really important, the real goal is to DESTROY THE PATTERN. And that really the more effective way to do that, is to just, well...add a LOT more dots to the graph, so to speak. So, I kind of some to think that it's much better and more important just to have MORE and MORE DIVERSE representations in all senses, than to criticize each individual instance. Because replacing a certain narrow pattern with a DIFFERENT narrow pattern is ultimately not going to be all that beneficial--it'll just end up trading one stereotype or shallow trope with different stereotype or shallow trope. Which we've actually seen happen. The "the only gay in the story dies" being replaced by "the only gay in the story is a sassy best friend," for example. So, instead of responding with "no gays should die in media ever" or "the sassy gay best friend is a stereotype and therefore should be abolished," it might be more productive to go, "okay, let's keep our tragic gay stories AND our gay best friend stories...and then ALSO push for a bunch of OTHER TYPES of stories too. (Like, seriously. Just...a BUNCH of other types of stories. LITERALLY ALLLLLL THE CONCEIVABLE STORIES, IN FACT.") In the end, I think answer will be an emphases on "more" representation, not as much on "good" representation--like with that poverb about the pots. Being upset when a queer supporting character is underdeveloped or gets killed off in a TV show or is mostly just comic relief (which, yeah, pisses me off too) I think misses part of the point--which is that we should really be fighting for more queer characters in LEAD ROLES, since those characters are generally the ones that get more development and don't get killed off, or that it should become normal to have more than one queer character in a cast. Picking apart each individual example of representation distracts from the fact that LGBTQ+ characters are still massively, proportionally underrepresented in media. Stereotypes and harmful tropes suck, yes. But trying to extract them one by one is not going to work. Instead, if we simply bombard the culture with massive, unrelenting, diverse queer characters throughout all of media, eventually those stereotypes are simply going to be drowned out and become obsolete. In a sense, I almost think continuing to fixate on them helps them keep their power. It's more complicated than that of course, because a lot of these old patterns have created understandably hurtful responses in those communities--and some tropes are just innately awful and kinda need to die (like cis straight men being violently sick in response to trans women as a source of comedy, for instance). But I think, sometimes, there can be too strong of an emphases an getting the EXACT "right" kind of representation, instead of prioritizing just flooding the market with so many differing examples of said representations that the stereotypes and tropes are literally drowned to death. Till we make having queer characters in media so goddamn COMMON that no one can even remember what the stereotypes and tropes WERE, and they're forced to view queer people as PEOPLE, and as a group made up of diverse individuals all with their own unique stories to tell. True representation will be when there CAN be "bad" representation of a group and have that be FINE--and that can only happen if there's first just A WHOLE LOT MORE OF IT. And I also sometimes take issue with things like, depictions as effeminate gay men being dismissed for being "stereotypes"--because there are some effeminate gay men, and having who you are be dismissed as a stereotype can feel really hurtful too. The solution is not to say "depictions of effeminate gay men are bad and we shouldn't support them" because that's almost like saying "BEING an effeminate gay man is bad and we shouldn't support them." Instead, we should look at that trend and say, "Wow, we need a WHOLE LOT MORE gay men in media, with a WHOLE LOT MORE diversity. Let's get on that." I'm not making a blanket statement not to be critical, or to let underrepresented people be depicted as jokes without examination, or that the hurt that comes from the perpetuation of tropes and stereotypes isn't real or valid, but I AM saying that maybe framing the discussion in terms of what NOT to do, versus what we SHOULD do (ie: have a LOT more representation for these various disenfranchised groups, and depict them in a wide range of experiences, genres, and character traits, generally just treat them like people, and normalize having them fill a wide range of roles within a story), we might be shooting ourselves in the foot a bit. Like you said, the problem is that those are the ONLY stories--so lets make some other ones, to the point where those are just a few dots on the graph, equal with a bunch of other ones. I think basically what I'm saying maybe is that fixating too much on the individual instances of representation and how "good" they are is kinda like arguing about the quality of the scraps we're being given, and instead we should be demanding a whole damn feast at the table with full access to all the dishes white cis het men get. I'm not gonna quibble about if the single grape I got was slightly squishy, or that ALL I've gotten was grapes since god know's when---I'm just not gonna stop shouting till I get access to the whole damn grocery store.
I'm curious if you've ever seen Tim Burton's "Ed Wood", as it's one of the few instances I can think of where a man cross-dresses out of choice and is very open about why he does it and his sexuality; he is straight, he seems happy with his born gender, he just happens to find women's clothes more comfortable. But at the same time the way the movie handles it does also seem like it's playing up another 'quirk' of an eccentric director, so it's not without problems. Oh and your bringing up of that cliche made me think of Chandler's 'dad' in Friends, who is played by a cis woman. However; I don't remember it ever being said that they are trans, I think they were just a crossdresser, as I don't remember them ever calling them by female pronouns.
I like the cross dressing in Princess Jellyfish. He does it because he wants to, he looks amazing and is admired by women for being beautiful and confident. Hopefully we can make more stuff like it
Hi. While watching this video, the old John Waters films, especially with Devine came to mind as a contrast to the patterns you brought up. I am curious how you feel his depiction of gender-bending characters fits into the larger media narrative. Also, love the necklace!
I agree with you on the pattern thing but I still think that the guy who plays Lex Luther was hot in Sorority Boys, even if it wasn't a very good movie.
While this video focuses on the trope of Crossdressing as Comedy when it comes to men dressing as women, there is another pattern to be observed when it comes to the inverse--women dressing/presenting as men. Any story I've seen where women/girls present as men/boys shows the action done out of a necessity because being in their position as someone female isn't enough to help them get by. Think of every film or story you've seen where this is a plot point. The heroine must present as male to either save herself or someone she loves from certain doom or to overcome an obstacle presented due to her gender. Mulan- Mulan becomes Ping to save her father from the draft. The Breadwinner- Parvana becomes Aatish after her father is imprisoned so her family can have food on the table. The tragedy of Albert Nobbs. Victor/Victoria- She assumes the persona of a crossdressing man because there is no market for female performers. The pattern I observe in examples like these is that being a woman isn't enough. Even today it's not enough to assume she's competent to fulfill her goal in a male-dominated area. Regrettably the one example I have for contemporary female drag is She's the Man, a mediocre adaptation of Twelfth Night, but the problem still rings true. She was denied entry to her school's soccer team because of her gender, so she assumed the role of her brother and played at another school. If I misinterpreted this, or if there are other patterns you noticed, please let me know. I'm open to learning and discussing these story patterns.
I think you may be conflating a reflection of women's places in society in the times these films are set with a message of the films itself. In other words, I don't believe it's the films themselves that are saying that being a woman isn't enough, but the societies and times that these films are set do believe that. Which then forces the situation, not because it's a message of the film, but because it's an element of the world building. I think that's at least a partial factor as to why the vast majority of "women passing as men" stories are set further in the past than "men passing as women" stories.
I think an example for good representation is the Zatoichi movie, in which a pair of siblings is performing as Geishas to get revenge. - SPOILERS for the movie - They are brother and sister, but present both as women and the brother is actually "the pretty one" who seduces the men they perform for. At the end of the movie, after they had their revenge and everything is over, one character asks the brother why they are still dressed as a woman and they answer: "Because I like myself that way."
That was an excellent video. I get what you mean about patterns in depiction and how being able to point to and defend a specific instance does not alter the fact that the specific instance in question is effectively identical to numerous other "specific instances" throughout the media. I have numerous friends and family who are LGBTQ+ and each is unique. Yes, I have a very flamboyant and effeminate gay male cousin who looks and acts like he stepped off the set of _Queer Eye for the Straight Guy_ but the fact that he, personally, is like that does not legitimise that being the *only* facet of male homosexuality depicted in movies and TV shows any more than it's legitimate to only depict men dressing as women as comedic and as "straight normal guys forced to do it by extenuating circumstances". As a would-be/wannabe writer, one of my big aims is to depict people in a realistic fashion without falling back on stereotypes and without (conversely) drawing the criticism that I'm not writing them true to life. Being mindful that there are distinct patterns and tropes that keep recurring with monotonous regularity, I've actually developed somewhat of an aversion to writing someone who fits those patterns, regardless of how "realistic" or "justifiable" that character might be in the context of the story. I really appreciate this video and your take on portrayal of LGBTQ+ people in the media. Great comments and points about the habit of using men to play trans women and women to play trans men in the media. I hadn't actually thought of that until you pointed it out and when you did it was "yeah, that's exactly what they do." I actually wracked my brains for an instance in which they actually had a woman play the part of the trans woman and could only think of *one* I've seen in which they did so - can't remember the name of the film, however.
Cis bi girl here. I dont know enough about trans/gender issues, and my experience as a bi girl really is not too helpful without more information. I find your videos really helpful in understanding some issues, and I do other research too. Not to objectify you or anything, but also you are beautiful.
I agree that gay male depictions in the early 2000’s was pretty homogenous. Always camp, always flamboyant, always obsessed with musical theatre, always obsessed with fashion, and always talking in double entendre, always fem. will and grace, sex and the city, queer as folk, there was little variety in personality, race yes, personality no. And though I did know people who were like that, I know more who definitely are not, myself included (I cannot stand most musicals and have zero fashion sense). But the pattern was also at one point the “fabulous gay friend” stereotype for the main female protagonist in romantic comedies, like every open minded straight woman has a gay best friend, but they were always written the same way, snarky and obsessed with fit straight men. No wonder conservatives have funny ideas about us when Hollywood just churn out the same stock character like photocopies of their bare ass at the christmas party.
Straight guy here, if not for these videos you upload I probably would not be as aware of LGBTQ perspectives on various topics. I appreciate that you do speak out in this venue, so I can learn more.
Gay guy here. I'm super glad he uploads these things because I was in the closet for a long time, and I'm not nearly as educated on LGBTQ issues as I'd like to be, even though I'm out now.
And we appreciate your openness to listen
as Millarca said, we definitely appreciate your openness. Minority groups can only start gaining acceptance when members of the majority are willing to hear their narrative. It's always a little warming when people like you are actually interested in and open to hearing other perspectives :)
Bless this comments thread, seriously.
💙🌻💜🌻💙
90% of cross dressers identify themselves as heterosexual
I think the “bury your gays” is a good example of what the video is talking about. People defend certain instances of this happening because if fits that specific story, and I too have seen this executed well.
But that’s not the point, the point is that the trope has become a pattern, it might be well or badly executed but it’s still perpetuating a pattern that’s harmful to the lgbt+ community.
I was about to make a comment about Bury your Gays, and then I saw someone has, not only done it already, but expressed it perfectly.
I see many people mention instances in which lgbtq representation was done and done well, only to end with the lgbtq person getting killed in the end. And whether or not the "twist" was well executed and made sense in the story, it still adds another nail to the coffin of lgbtq people being capable of happiness.
I think there should be another trope called the eunuch gay. It's where the individual comes out as gay but is never seen dating or having sex. I catch that in a lot of shows that just want to have gays for diversity reasons.
I really learned to despise that darned trope.
I feel an additional issue is the "trap" joke. Popular in the West and goddam played consistently in anime. The hot girl that is a guy cross dressing when it gets to the bedroom. How many comedies use this joke!!!! Many off screen.
This has and still is used as a defence in real murders. They were not who I thought they were so I killed them!
I feel like the "trap" phenom is a weird case of art imitating life (and also kind of a vicious cycle). Hyperfeminized male characters have been an anime staple almost since the beginning. For a long time, no one thought anything of it (at least not in the anime-watching circles I was part of in the late 90s and early 00s). It was just a stylistic choice. Then a bunch of immature fans started turning it into a joke and the idea of the "trap" was truly born. Cue a metric butt-ton of anime creators turning around and deliberately including "trap" characters in their works. Cue even *more* immature fans laughing their asses off at anyone who doesn't conform to traditional gender stereotypes.
Or maybe I was just really lucky in the anime fans I met back in the day and this sort of thing has been going on longer than I like to think...
So that's where that fucking awful trend originated from. Had no idea it was an anime thing.
Glad you mentioned it, OP. I hope you all saw or will see Contrapoints' recent video on the topic (it's awesome, trust me): th-cam.com/video/PbBzhqJK3bg/w-d-xo.html
It's worse than that since a lot of the characters that get labeled that way aren't men at all but meant to be trans women. This vid goes into more detail and is the one referenced in the Contrapoints video. th-cam.com/video/nxeB2AXIG3E/w-d-xo.html
There's an anime called Ouran High School Host Club where the main characters dad and a few of his friends cross dress just because it's fun. And not even in a cruel kinda way, they just like it. It isn't even played for comedy.
Even Haruhi herself is a cross dresser, more or less because she is treated as a guy by most people outside the Host Club. That is, the 'clientele' of the Host Club believe Haruhi to be a guy. She does go so far as to say she doesn't care how people see her. Haruhi is herself but people assume her to be a guy based on how she dresses.
Love Ouran! Yes, the depiction of Haruhi’s dad is by far one of the best LGBTQ+ things I’ve seen in anime. And I love that they kept Haruhi’s otter indifference to her gender to the very end of the manga, she never went through the trope of wanting to be seen or treated as a woman even after she realized she was in love.
I really liked that show for that reason! I'm the same way where I know I am female, but I couldn't care less if I get misgendered (unless it is in a situation where I feel unsafe or that I am making someone else feel unsafe, so mostly public restrooms). My friend drunkenly asked me if I wanted to be called mister and I told her I didn't give a shit what she called me.
I love Haruhi's dad! He's still a very comedic character, but the joke isn't "dude dresses like a woman". The joke is "protective father loves his little girl". He's so adorable.
I think it might be time for my yearly re-watch of OHSHC.
Yes but, they also portray twincest
Also that necklace is AMAAAYZING
What, the twig? 🤔
Nathaniel is "branching" out, ammiright?
I will see myself out.
This video was posted just after my parents told me that being Bi was a 'kink' and they would disown me if I was or dated a bisexual.
Guess I'm not coming out anytime soon.
Great video and I'm glad for your more educational videos - they're really eye-opening.
Chante van Dyk - that must have been really tough to hear from them. Sorry to hear that.
As a fellow bi, I'm really sorry you had to hear that, but I'm here to remind you're valid person, not a kink and you're not alone
I grew up in an openly homophobic family. It took me 10 years to understand that the warm, fuzzy feeling I had for a friend was indeed a crush.
I stayed in the bi-closet until my parents died. For safety or cowardice... ...I can't tell them apart.
Most people dont even know what a kink is. In oppositions christianity has lots of kinks, incliding sm.
I hope you move out soon and that your parents have a change of heart. Or are getting more accepting.
You can still date if i see that right. And can still figure things out if you dont make it public to everyone. You are valuable, as are your atrractions. If your parents dont understand that, its their problem. Dont ever doubt that. You dont need their validation. Good luck in the future.
I'm sorry for your parents. When I came out to my mother, her first reaction was "omg, don't EVER tell your father! It would kill him." ... her second was "you were sexually abused at some point and that's why you're like this, isn't it?"
To this day, I'm honestly not sure which felt like more of a slap in the face.
Always looking forward to these videos to help me broaden my own view of the LGBTQ society representation in media since I like learning how the patterns form and why it's wrong. I do fall into the patterns sometimes for LGBTQ representation but didn't realise it was a issue since I focus more on disability representation but nice to fill in my lack of knowledge.
It's fair point about stereotyping and it has been done to many minorities not just LGBTQ. The representation of African-Americans have similar issues like the Magic Negro stereotype.
Yeah... Bagger Vance..., etc.
It feels like another mis-step, like the sacrificial partner, in a cop film.
I suspect it's a stage that needs to be passed through. As representation increases, in front of the camera and behind the scenes. The dialogue will become more refined. Regarding Who, I was amazed, at the reaction to Bill. Some newspapers in the UK were hysterical objecting even to her name, before any episodes were broadcast. I find it flummoxing after RTD, wrote Jack kissing the Doctor (when he was male?!) passing without comment.... Or none that I noticed. Probably just glad to have Who back after such a long break. Bill's sexuality, was just an aspect of her, rather than defining. For me it didn't offend.
Hmmm... I absolutely agree about crossdressing being played for laughs is a problem by how frequently its done, and was something I noticed before. So I was kind of blindsided when you mentioned the casting decisions ("casting a cis man to play a trans woman"), because that hadn't occurred to me as a problem. My kneejerk reaction was to say "Well, that's the way it should be - you can kind of tell whether someone's body/sex matches the gender they're trying to express or not". Which... surprised me, because I always thought of myself as a trans ally, and I think to a certain extent I'd grown complacent in trying to observe my own beliefs and biases. So... that's a long-winded way of saying "Thanks for bringing this to my attention."
you'd be better off saying you can sometimes tell, I'd wager you've encountered transgender people without ever knowing it. Hormones are fucking magic www.reddit.com/r/transtimelines/top/
Can I just say, I love how the “Switch the look” gets more and more dramatic!
I just want to see a happy lesbian monogamous couple with their babies in something, anything. (As a bisexual woman engaged to a women, I just want to see a happy ending for a couple like us)
If I find it without any strings attached, I’ll let you know.
It's kind of a cheat, but the latter seasons of the anime Sailor Moon. I know the 90s dub changed them to "cousins," but Sailors Uranus and Neptune are in a committed lesbian relationship. They appear in two seasons, the third and the fifth (and they're in the final 3 arcs of the manga as well). Haruka is often mistaken for a boy/young adult male, and plays into that for the sake of their mission (uncover the bad guys at a school), and Michiru is coded as very femme. They make sexually suggestive comments to one another, and each flirt with other people, but at the end of the day, they are willing to do anything to keep the other safe and happy. They're shown at the beginning of the fifth season living in a house with Setsuna/Sailor Pluto (who in the 90s anime comes across as asexual to me, even though the manga makes it clear she's got an unrequited thing for a man) and raising a baby/young girl together. When I first started questioning my sexuality/identity and coming to terms with it, back in the early 2000s, they were my "power couple" - the positive look at the type of relationship I was beginning to have, and wanted to have. The new dub cleaves much more closely to the original dialogue, so no more "cousins", thank goodness.
I haven't actually finished it yet, but The Up Side of Unrequited, by Becky Albertali (can I spell, no, I'm sorry) aka the lady who wrote Simon vs the Homosapiens Agenda. The book freatures a happy long term Lesbian (?) couple, as the main character's mom's. ((Also they get married, or at least engaged, I haven't finished it)) They play a pretty big part in the book, so yeah..
The Fosters have that. :-)
@@TheUmbravulpes I'm aware. And I'm excited to find someone else who knows about Takarazuka! Sailor Moon is what got me into Takarazuka in the first place (the live-action Sailor Moon musicals, specifically - and Haruka/Michiru is DEFINITELY played up for romance in those). My wife and I have a collection of DVDs and CDs and Chirashi and the lot, and we went to see the OG Chicago in NYC a couple summers back. If I'm remembering correctly, originally Takeuchi wanted Haruka and Michiru to BE Takarisiennes, but that would have made them too old for the stories she wanted to tell. The company would, I agree. Though they are quite happy to create "queer moments" in photos to sell magazines - I've got several Le Cinqs that feature two otokoyaku in rather sensual poses with each other (and then there was Ayaki Nao's photobook and the shoot with her sister, who was also a 'sienne). Do you follow current troupes?
Honestly I wish I had a more positive look on cross dressing when I grew up because men look so damn good in a dress and heels!
(Not always but a good number)
Some of the most beautiful women I know are men.
They have almost always got amazing legs that's for sure
I want a movie where through out the whole movie the trans character is the gender they want to be but when they look in the mirror they have the body part that they were born with and as they go through the change they slowly become the gender they see themselves as being and what they want to be.
So let's say they feel like a female in a man's body, their actor will be female until they look in a mirror or look at their body, people call them he/him to the female actor. As they go through the change the person in the mirror becomes more the female actor then the male actor. Until at the end they look in the mirror and see the female actor.
(I hope this made sense? Sorry if my wording was poor or if I gave off any weird vibes, tell me if there is anything I can fix here?)
I feel like this would be an interesting college project or indy project as an art piece. If it's made via mainstream Hollywood it might have the problem of giving uneducated individuals the wrong idea of what it's like to be transgender. This does give me an idea for a painting though. :)
@@reizak8966 Yeah I get what you're saying, that makes sense.
It might be useful to use the terms afab and amab (assigned female/male at birth) instead of female and male. For example you could say a trans character played by an afab person until looking in the mirror, in which a amab person is reflected.
For films about transition, however, the community finds it a *LOT* better to have a "fully transitioned" person be present and just detransition them with makeup on stuff to not only give trans actors a place, but break the *implicit* ideas that cis (non-trans) people are what trans people want to turn themselves into and that a trans actor's "end result" isn't something to aspire to be.
detransition them to play a non-transitioned/non-transitioning trans person,* kinda like they were thinking of doing to scarjo
@@PlanetGoddess okay thank you that really helped! I'll edit my comment now.
Public opinion is like steering a big ship, it doesn't change quickly but videos like yours help nudge it in the right direction. My own experience as a gay man growing up in the 70's and 80's very much echo yours. The only gay characters on TV in those days were people like John Inman, Larry Grason and Quentin Crisp, portrayed and portraying gay men as camp, effeminate and cross dressers. I vividly remember seeing "The Naked Civil Servant" for the first time as a teenager, realising that he was gay like me, but there was a strong disconnect between the way he acted and the way I acted and wanted to act. Thank heavens things have changed and are still changing for the LGBTQ+ community.
Interesting perspective. I'm straight but I'm Puerto Rican so I'm in a different minority and it got me thinking about all the times growing up that I wondered why Puerto Ricans and other latinos were almost always portrayed in media as one-dimensional villains. It was very frequent and socially accepted for the longest time. It's still happening, and the current climate isn't helping. Like you say, it's the pattern that's pervasive. But I hope things will get better, for my community and yours.
Have you seen or read Princess Jellyfish? One of the main character is a cross dresser and describes himself as normal. I’m curious if you’d like him or the series. I’d also love a top ten list of what you consider good representation in different media. Like specific characters in movies, books, etc. and how affectively they represent a certain group.
Princess Jellyfish is amazing and I oove it to bits!
Nathaniel, you're a lovely person. You continue to always present well-reasoned, thoughtful discussions of the topics you cover, and you never let your emotions get the best of you, which adds enormous credence to your arguments, especially with people who might otherwise dismiss them. Keep up the good work.
Really glad you're tackling this, and extending it to other groups. I grew up in the 70s as a Disabled kid, and the only representation of a wheelchair user on TV was Ironside - played by a non-disabled actor. Even now, British TV has only recently cast authentic Disabled actors. And last year's Oscars saw the first award to a Deaf actor since Marlee Matlin in 1987. Too often non-disabled actors are winning awards playing us, when they could have been actually Disabled. Cripping-Up is every bit as wrong as Blackface.
I love your nail polish! It is soo awesome!
I agree, understand, appreciate and respect everything you said in this video. I had thought about this before but the way you articulated your argument was pretty close to perfect. Thankyou for the education and the articulation. Keep doing what you do.
This is really relevant to my video essay I did on representation in television of celibacy, nonamory, asexuality, and aromanticism. People keep telling me I'm getting hung up on a character that is a psychopath or sociopath or whatever when the point is that it's a pattern that the nearly only characters AT ALL allowed to not "Get" or "want" sex and romance are psychopaths and whatnot... etc etc. Stuff like that throughout my video.
Autistic characters are your only other aroace rep from what I've seen as an autistic person, despite the fact that most of us are not aroace. In our case it's used as infantilisation
Right there are plenty of allistic aros and aces, and plenty of allo autistic folks, and while some intersectional representation that shows people can be both aroace and autistic would be great if done really well, it's done horribly in most shows where it's more "autism coding" that then "leads" to them not "understanding" (nor wanting) sex or romance or any of those types of relationships.
It is driving me nuts there was an Old Australian Series where there was a Man who cross dressed. It was a secret from His Wife and family but in the story he came out to them and started a society for Men who also cross dressed it was done so well and with such heart I really wish I could remember what series it was as it was some time ago.
I am really glad you shine a light on this stuff as it is easy for people to overlook the patterns and the problems associated with LGBQT representation. It feels like it was taking some great leaps forward and suddenly feels like we have stepped backwards in so many ways.
Representation is so vital it can literally save lives.
Not the same thing but as a plus sized woman growing up and having people Like Dawn French, Joe Brand, and Magda Subanski on my TV screens showed me I could do what I wanted fearlessly. I cannot imagine not having that or how much harder life would have been for me had I not had those role models. Everyone deserves to see well written stories, acted by hopefully actors who truly get the roles and also to see some of themselves in the characters.
Something often forgotten is that consumers and creators have more power than ever. There is crowd funding, writing your own work and getting it together yourself etc yes it is a lot more work but it is usually these things that tend to turn the tide and bring things more mainstream as consumers pouring money into more indy projects of a certain type makes the big studios etc pay attention. (Just thought I would add this as it is something I remind friends working in the Industry that they have more power than they know Hugs)
My first thought was Aunty Jack but I’m 100% sure you don’t mean her. I’m curious about the actual show you mean though.
I am 9 mins into the vid, so I might post this too early but!
Hair
This concept of patterns vs individual cases, is something I've been aware of I've never been able to put it into words -which makes it hard for other people understand what I mean. So thank you for that.
It's a difficult topic.
The problem isn't really what we have, it's what we _don't have._
And when looking at specific instances, it's quite unfair to criticize one person or their work for not being everything you wish they were.
But at the same time, it's difficult to point at something that... _isn't there._
Denouncing the patterns is probably the best way to go about it but it means that since no one person is responsible, no one person _has_ to help fixing it. Sometimes I feel like the choice is between shaming random people into taking responsibility or wait for them to do so spontaneously while they're not even aware of the problem... Which can be frustrating.
I guess our best option is to do just what you're doing, talking about it until people are aware of the problem and hope that they'll care.
Hello from Denmark.
This is a great channel.
I am a married CIS guy.
Me and the wife try to be allies to all LBGTQ+ people.
So I just want to say hello, and thank you for the great work you and others do.
🇩🇰❤️🏳️🌈
There were a couple of episodes in "Ally McBeal" were some co-workers had been fired for "being freaks", such as being too ugly, too fat, mentally challenged and one was a cross-dresser. I thought that was a pretty positive example (not them being fired, of course, but them being defended against this injustice), because it wasn't really played for laughs, the people were taken rather seriously by the show as they were portrayed as caring and supportive of each other and respecting one another for what they were. It was really nice to watch.
19:52 You describe me so much in that. I so often overexplain, not because I'm lecturing, but because I want people to understand where I'm coming from.
When I take things for granted, I get told I'm being stupid. So I tend to explain things from the ground up and then get teased about lecturing people.
Sometimes even by the same people.
0:28 Seeing you "switch the look" in your older videos... I can't believe it took this long for me to equate it with Mr. Rogers (💙) and how he would switch his look at the start and end of each episode. It just hit me and I had to pause to let it sink in!
Not sure if there was any intentional connection but regardless, I like it. 💙 Even if I'm the only one who had this pop in their head, it puts a smile on my face each time and now I finally realize why. 💡😊
Anyway, just had to share. Back to the video!
(Also, "switch the look" would be cool on a t-shirt or something. 😊)
Your nail polish is beautiful and I need it in my life
Also, literally the only instance I can think of where crossdressing isn't played for laughs is Eddie izzards dressed to kill, which, seeing as it's literally just him dressing how he wants to on stage, *and* is literally a stand up comedy, it's a pretty bloody tenuous thing.
Pretty sure Kinky Boots (the movie, don't know about the musical I've heard there is) didn't overly play the crossdressing itself for laughs (more the reactions others had to it). It's been years since I've seen it, though, so I could be misremembering and it might just be an example of "fair for its time". But you're right. There is a serious derth of crossdressing not being played for laughs.
Izzard is the real deal, IMO. I agree with them that it is not "crossdressing", it is actually just *total clothing freedom.*
@@HereComesPopoBawa exactly. And if it's ok for women to wear trousers (and for many years it wasn't, it was literally illegal), it should be ok for men to wear clothes and accessories that are traditionally female. That's a flavour of feminism I can get behind. One where liking feminine things makes a man no less of a man that a woman liking masculine things. There's this idea in our society I think, that to be feminine is to be less than, be that an actual woman, a crossdressing man (because when was the last time a woman in men's clothes caused anyone to bat an eyelid), a transwoman. And the idea that there must be something wrong with a man who purposefully wants to present as more feminine is pretty toxic if you ask me, but if you really look its right there in plain sight.
@@CailinRuaAnChead - Agreed. But not only that, in a modern global multicultural environment, people are slow to grasp that "traditionally male" and "traditionally female" are not universal, and nobody is obliged to conform to traditions of others. Is wearing a Thai men's skirt in the US "traditionally" male or female? Most people I know around here aren't sufficiently knowledgeable to speak of anyone's traditions. If I were to apply for jobs, or appear in court or do some other important function in my area wearing indigenous clothing, people would insist that I was "trying to make a point" rather than simply exist.
People pay lip service to tradition, but it's often merely a guise for their conformist attitudes and imperialism.
@@HereComesPopoBawa yep. And that's rub isn't it? If you don't conform to *western* standards of cis gender and beauty /masculinity etc you are less than. It's not even people doing it on purpose though it's so deeply ingrained in our culture that it's subconscious, which makes it pretty tough to root out.
It starts with sending kids these little subliminal messages, when the toy aisle is split into girls and boys, and on the girls side is dolls, and make-up and toy tills to play shopping. On the boys is diggers and stuff to build and things that generally say 'you can do stuff that will change the world'. There is nothing inherently wrong with either of these sets of toys, they all have their merits. The problem lies with splitting them, and saying that this is for girls - you shop, you look after babies, you look pretty, and this is for boys - you build, you fight, you do the machines. But the boys should be allowed to play with the dolls and the make up, the girls should be allowed to play with the swords. They don't want to though because of the subtle cues they pick up on that that's not for them.
It the reason why men in dresses is funny in the first place. "oh haha, a man being all famine and not manly, how absurd". We've got a long way to go.
Perhaps we'll get there in a generation or two.
I appreciate you breaking down what you're talking about; explaining meaning and terminology so that the layman can understand.
I think that To Wong Foo Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar, and Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, are the only two movies about crossdressing/LGBTQ representation where the crossdressing is not played for laughs, that I know of, at least. It's been a long while since I've seen either, so my memory of them night not be 100% accurate. Maybe you could do a follow-up video about those films if you think that they warrant mentioning along with this topic.
I was just thinking about those two movies. I am not sure about Priscilla, Queen of the Desert as I have not seen it, however, To Wong Foo, did have some comedic moments, however, I suppose it showed more that crossdressers are normal and have their own problems that most people could not understand such as when they were pulled over by that sheriff who had sexually assaulted Patrick Swayze's character only to discover he was a man. Being seen as "You need to be this way" and not wanting to be and growing through the experience of helping the small town.
Well, there is a Spanish movie called All about my mother, which has good trans (it has a woman interpreting a transwoman) and also crossdressing representation. But well, the director is Almodóvar, who was a part of the Spanish sexual revolution of the 80's (he himself being homosexual) and has always tried to represent people of the LGTB+ community, as well as other marginalized groups, in his films.
What also came to my Mind when seeing this video was I also watched To Wong Foo/ Priscilla Qotd- When thinking of Men Dressing as Women (Gay Subtext in both films one set in ("U.S.A ") another Set In ("Australia").
Sweet November
I started watching you when I found your first LGBTQ+ video about queerbaiting, and I’ve watched almost everything you’ve made since, and many of what you made before. I love the work you do here, and as a gay man myself, I really appreciate having someone that shares a lot of my interests who can speak to some of the issues and points that I’ve tried to communicate myself, In a manner that’s far more well-spoken, well thought out, concise, and thoughtful than I could ever hope to be. Thank you for what you do here, it means a lot.
I've learned so much watching this channel. You know, I learned to question things I used to defend out of ignorance. It has really affected my work as an editor in a positive way. Thank you for that.
I’ve been on holidays for the last few days without good internet or a lot of time for TH-cam. I saw that you put this up and all I’ve wanted to do is watch it. And now I’m finally home and have watched it, all I can say is it delivered. So well reasoned and eloquently spoken, and a topic that has also been on my mind for a long time. I love your LGBT+ videos
Yeah, it is nice to get such a detailed explanation; it helps make your situation much more understandable. Also, and again, your tone during these videos really helps make them approachable.
That helps to hear, since I usually go for something more focused and a little more mellow when dealing with these topics.
Very well said!
I completely agree. And I also hate the nitpicking at every instance instead of recognizing the pattern.
Have you watched The Celluloid Closet? There's a segment in there where they talk about the stock character of the 'sissy'. Quentin Crisp is being interviewed and says this: "Well, sissy characters in movies were always a joke. There's no sin like being a woman. When a man dresses as a woman, the audience laughs. When a woman dresses as a man, nobody laughs." In a sense, nothing has really changed. The instances you've mentioned aren't sissy characters by the strictest definition of the term, but they are men dressing as women - and that's a joke. It says something about how society actually values women and, because nobody laughs when a woman dresses as a man, how society values men and, perhaps to a greater extent, perceived masculinity. I would really love to read your book - I've been saving so I can get the paperback version.
This is such a needed viewpoint to express, thank you! I may have missed a video, but this video has sparked my memory of another, similar, conversation topic that's starting to circle around booktube recently though not outright. That being that 'representation' in a work does not automatically equate to quality work--in cases that don't include recycling like this or baiting. It's hard for me to not feel guilty if I don't fall madly in love with something because it as Topic/Representation insert here because, you know, how dare I deny an own-voices work or a contribution to the entertainment industry. It's not that these things aren't needed or valid, it just doesn't instantly make something a masterpiece to me. And I still feel terrible about it.
Part of the problem from my perspective is unless people have a vested interest, they tend to only look at examples in isolation rather than at the big picture overall and need to have the fact there is a wider angle pointed out to them. Or to use your example, they may see a brick or some grout, but are okay with that because they don't notice there's a wall in the first place. Most people arguing in good faith tend to come around when this is pointed out to them, particularly when done with the consideration and thoughtfulness you exhibit here.
I agree there's most likely no big conspiracy involved in the sameness of portrayals, simply the media's tendency to lean on what's worked in the past. And as you say they're not all bad, just lacking in variety. Much like, to cite some other examples, being The Girl or The Fat One. With luck, more people with nuanced and diverse stories to tell will be afforded that opportunity as time goes on. I know I'd be willing to contribute to crowdfunding to help see that happen.
Concerning these topics, I'd be very interested in your opinion on the film 'The Danish Girl' and on the series 'The Alienist' (currently on Netflix) if you have seen either of these.
In both cases I'm kind of confused about what to make of the way characters were represented.
Btw: Thanks for doing episodes like this, they are always a pleasure to watch.
Can't speak for The Alienist, but Danish Girl was hot trash.
Very interesting. Over in the UK, years ago, we had a long running storyline about a trans woman character in the soap Coronation St, for which they cast a cis woman (so matching the gender transitioned to) and they handled it pretty accurately as I recall - so there are some exceptions that are a *bit* better, but still the minority.
Going with your wall analogy, if every brick in a wall is flawed it's still going to be a good wall. But if every brick has precisely the same crack then chances are the wall will be very weak as that is now a major design flaw. If you tap the one brick the others around it that are cracked in precisely the same way are not strong enough to protect that one bricks cracks and it makes it much easier to take down the wall. That is the reason patterns are a problem. Excellent video.
On the topic of public perception: For a long time, people around me believed me to be gay just because of the way I dress and behave, so when I got a girlfriend, they were obviously fairly surprised. Then, after we broke up, they went right back to thinking I was gay. When I told a good friend of mine that I identified as bisexual he told me this. I had no idea. Because it didn’t matter to me, I don’t identify as bisexual because I dress or behave a certain way but because I can be attracted to both female and male individuals and this freedom of choice is the reason why it is that way.
I always found it very strange how it could be that people assume somebody to have a certain sexuality by just looking at the surface. There is so much more to that than just appearance. So much more.
Great video! Your handling of these topics is so comprehensive, rational and respectful to everyone, truly amazing!
Also love your necklace!
I've had this exact thought in my head that happens every time I get into a debate about this kind of thing, but could never find the right way to say it, until now. You brought order to my chaotic thoughts, and I thank you for that.
Im not sure if you’ve spoken about this before but I’d love to hear your input on the movie To Wong Foo Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar.
On a slightly unrelated note I really appreciate you making these videos. You are such a beautiful person and your reasonableness is sooo refreshing. Thank you for being you and sharing that with us! ♥️♥️♥️
I am so glad you did this video- I think this argument is hugely helpful to the argument of not casting cis actors for trans roles, but also why it's not ok to have white actors play Asian roles or able-bodied actors play roles of ppl w/ disabilities. I am someone who agrees with this argument but have a hard time explaining it to others, so I'm glad I have this video to share with people :)
Also I am glad you showed your book cover because I never knew your name before! I always just think of you as the Council of Geeks and never thought to look into your actual name *facepalm*
This reminds me of this one instance where me and some friends were talking about the bechdal test. Before I could barely get anything out they immediately went on a rant at how bs they thought the bechdal test was and then went on listing great movies with great female characters that don't pass it, missing the fact that the whole point of the test is not to use it to judge the quality of individual movies but to judge trends in movies as a whole.
The problem is the patterns, but there is also a huge problem in how those patterns get addressed by a lot of people in our community. Even if the problem people have with an individual piece of media is how it fits a troublesome pattern, most of the criticism is centered around sinking that piece of media as though it is were avatar for the entire pattern. I have no problem with people viewing media critically and recognizing and talking about these problematic patterns (I think it’s necessary for there to be change) but when every single instance of imperfect representation gets so severely problematized and campaigned against to the point where even just that little bit of ground that we have fought so hard for decades to even get that sliver of representation is relinquished, there is a huge problem.
I’m talking about people who hate Tim Curry‘s guts because he played Dr. Frank-N-Furter and/or dismiss any-and-all LGBT characters written or performed by cishet writers/actors on principle, even if it’s a jump forward in representation and they’re extremely responsive to critique (like the McElroys with LGBT characters Lup, Taako, Aubrey, etc. in The Adventure Zone). There’s A lot of impatience, gate keeping, and hostility toward nuance or ambivalence from a looooooooot of people trying to drive the conversation of LGBT representation, and that is a big ‘ol shot in the foot when it comes to progressing past these problematic patterns. because even if people recognize in theory that it is the pattern that is the problem rather than the individual piece of media, they don’t act that way.
I love it when you switch the look! It always feels like a triumphant moment!
I liked the reference to the 'Thermian Argument' (using in-universe logic to explain an out-universe problem like the patterns you mention)
Question. Would you throw The Birdcage in this pattern? And if not, where does it fall for you?
Also have you seen Kinky Boots? It's probably not quite on topic, but it's a personal favorite of mine. Thought I'd ask.
I don't know if you're old enough to remember Flip Wilson and Milton Berle as a child I would see them dressed as women comedy shows and people thought it was hysterical. But only because they were pretending. I'm 50 and as a kid growing up anytime you did see a lgbtq character in a movie or TV show it was mostly As comic relief. I feel that changed somewhat. I work with a young man who modeled and his modeling portfolio he was in Male clothing and female clothing. I remember him showing pictures to an older lady who had worked with us and her reaction was less than enthusiastic. He did not get upset he just took it in stride. Because he's happy with who he is. Great video so I'm happy to be a patreon supporter
Thank you, I love discussions like this..all disvcussions you bring actually. & I really like when Vera makes an appearance on the council.☺
I don’t know if you’ve heard of it but David Walliams wrote a book called The Boy in the Dress and it’s been adapted into a TV movie. It’s not a great movie but the kid cross dressing isn’t played as a joke as far as I can remember and it has a really wholesome ending.
I strongly agree on the issue of cis actors playing the 'starting point' rather than the 'end point' of gender. The only major example I can think of where a cis-woman played a trans-woman was Transamerica. It was easier to see the gender disphoria when a "real" woman looked like a man in a dress than when (for example) John Lithgow played a non-passing transwoman.
I'm aware that''s not the only problem.
BTW, I was one of the background extras on Queer as Folk USA *cough* Canada. There was a tension between the Queer background people wanting to have an accurate depiction of ourselves and the studio wanting the background to be generic. I'm a visible Jew - Sharon Gless actually went to bat for me wearing a kippa on set. We had background players with a range of ages, ethnicities and body types trying not to look like that scene in Being John Malkovitch where everyone is a version of the same white guy.
These videos are important...touching on a quick bit of dialogue...about that much change in several months/ year...
These are points that continue to happen ( some of the movies where 50 years ago), and some things haven't changed.
Theses videos ( hopefully) will be around for a long time, to illuminate, educate, and entertain generations...
And hopefully things will change ( positively) and these videos will just be historical record and not ongoing behaviors.
Awesome video. Your point is solid and, sadly, it’s all too easy to see where these patterns come from and how ingrained they are. Really glad people are talking about it in a clear, concise way. As someone who is gender fluid I guess I was primed to notice these patterns early, too, and the limitations of the gender boxes. A lot of my early life involved frustration because I didn’t match type and I know that’s a common queer experience. On the other hand it’s not surprising non-queer producers don’t even think about the impact of what they’re making. They’ve never had to ask the relevant questions. Love your hair, by the way.
Great video! I've thought about this issue for some time now but it's helpful when someone can put it into words for you.
Just a thank you on this one. Not necessarily the same thing, but I've been getting so frustrated with how a trans woman at a Gamestop is all over the place lately. Yes, the constant misgendering can get frustrating, but it's how people believe they are allowed to talk about us (often right to us) where things from entertainment media come back in our faces.
The way you explained the trans roles casting oposite gender cis persons is PERFECT, everyone need to see this.
I highly recommend the comic limited series Rising Stars, which has an incredibly sympathetic portrayal of cross-dressing for coming from the ‘90s. It actually has a born male superhero whose powers get much stronger when she lets herself be who she really is.
Forest and trees. If you're only looking at the forest, you might miss the rot in individual trees. But, if you're only looking at individual trees, the whole forest could be chopped down around you without you even noticing. Seeing both the patterns (the broad picture) and examining the individual shows, show-runners, series, films, actors/actresses. etc. is important for informed critique. It's easy to get waylaid by the "but not this one" drawing the focus away from the broader patterns in an effort to waylay the dialogue. This is true of many different things, not just entertainment critique. Often times the broader narrative in one thing even informs and/or transforms the broader narrative of another as both or either reflection or force of change.
Thinking about the Doctor Who example: it actually matters even less that it makes sense in a particular instance because it's a pattern that always happens that particular instance actually loses it's meaning and potential impact (the reason it makes sense) because it's just them doing this one more time. So by repeating a pattern for whatever ridiculous reasons you are also stripping potential meaning away and in essence limiting the language with which we have to discuss things by rendering one aspect meaningless.
Back when it was confirmed that Shiro was gay in Voltron, it started a conversation related to relationships in the show. It happened more in the shipping parts of the fandom, but wasn't exclusive to it. Namely that, some people were say that Shiro could just go without a relationship (an argument used to invalidate ships sometimes) because sometimes people just don't end up in a relationship and that's okay. But the problem with that argument is what you said during the video, more often than not, gay men aren't allowed to end the show in a relationship, they typically stay single either for lack of partners or due to tragedy. So it was important that Shiro end the show in a relationship to hopefully start a new trend of happily paired queer characters in media, especially children and teen's media.
Just wanted to share my example. Great video as always!
(Haven't read the comments here so if someone else brought this up cool)
I agree with this sentiment overall though I always think LGBTQ creators have more leeway with this than creators who aren't LGBTQ. This is related to the fact that I don't think characters who have stereotypical attributes are inherently bad. They can be written well and be compelling and all that.
So while I agree I still think LGBTQ creators should be allowed in a sense to create things that might fall into patterns. They shouldn't be held to always breaking or bursting out of patterns and the like. It's not mandatory and it won't stop a story from being problematic (however one defines that word) but it's something I personally always take into consideration.
Thanks for this video. You put in words what has so often bugged me subconsciously with the depiction of all non-white, non-cis, non-hetero and/or non-male characters in movies. (Probs to your wife)
Hollywood just loves its stereotypes far too much.
What fantastic video. i love how succinct and soft spoken you are, I feel it can be easy to be angry and show more hurt about this topic, I certainly would be. Great video, and also love your nail polish :>>
Another example of is the tv series Bosom Buddies with a very young Tom Hanks. It fits the pattern. And I love your necklace.
Although I don't believe in gender fluidity and disagree with you on some other controversial things, I appreciate what you've had to say, and I respect your bravery to expose yourself to the internet. I respect your position that the individual works, while they may be defendable in their own ways, do affect the general zeitgeist, potentially in a negative way. Your position on the matter is a more nuanced one that I don't recall hearing before, and I think that's a reasonable stance to take. I find it refreshing to hear that you've given each of those works a critical look instead of having dismissed them all outright as misleading and inaccurate. I personally value artists' freedom of expression and their visions above any sort of obligation to a greater good. I respect that you're reaching out with humility and openness. We're all just trying to make sense of this crazy world, and most of us don't have any ill intent.
As someone who recently came out as Transgender Girl (like two months ago) I deeply appreciate this insight and your openness. It shows humbleness to speak as you do about this matter even admit you don't have all the answers. I also envy your lack of body hair, I wish I had less :(. But yeah, this is an extremely great take and I enjoy your take on this matter and your take on LGBT+ stuff in general especially since I am still coming to terms with who I am. Your bravery to present yourself so proudly is amazing
Funny realization: My parents didn't flicker an eyelash at Tootsie or Mrs. Doubtfire (and neither did I). They also did not have a problem with The gender-bending in Cabaret or in Barbara Streisand's performance in Yentl. Bu\t in each film, there was some reason. In Cabaret, IIRC, it was stage performance (I haven't seen the movie since college-age). In the others, thee's always a reason and it's a comedy. Oh, and Klinger in MASH, of course. But oh, attempting to explain Boy George when he appeared in the A Team episode, and when my parents separately heard one of his songs over the intercom while at Red Lobster (er, no, that's a guy, Mom and Dad, he's called Boy George, he's British, he's in a pop rock band called Culture Club....) They were not ready. I was trying hard to be diplomatic. It was awkward and now funny. But yeah, these instances show how (straight and homophobic) people could rationalize, oh, it's OK because it's a performance, or because it's a comedy, or it's to keep a job or to keep contact with a dad's children.... -- Would they have been OK if it was just because a man or woman felt genuinely somewhere in between genders? (I'm cisgender, but didn't even know that word until a few years ago.) But what about others, in general, would they have been oOK with other people being other than cis or straight? Unlikely...or else I never knew if they were ore accepting.
While the pattern that Council of Geeks is talking about is (maybe) less damaging, it's still not great. But it's maybe a milder case (or not milder?) of another pattern or stereotype: the perception of any boy/man as a "sissy" or "girly" or effeminate ("fem") gay, or maybe even "campy" or "flamer" (the last two might be too much, within the community, but I think it's how these are lumped together by the phobic portion of the straight community. In other words, men or boys seen as more effeminate and gay are equated with being like girls or women, cross-dressing, all sorts of stereotypical perceptions of males who are less masculine, more feminine in any way (or gay) as if all gay men (and gay boys) are automatically girlish, womanly, effeminate, therefore less manly or unmanly. Note how that also is mysogynist and belittles women and girls, at the same time as it tries to belittle the boys and men who are seen as anything other than hyper-masculine men, super macho, big and strong ... oh, you could get lost in the stereotypes in all sides in this, right? Note I'm not approving of this, and note, I grew up having to fight against how I was perceived too, even though I'd like to think I wasn't as ... whatever ... as those other boys or men thought. Or that from an early age, since first allowed to choose my own clothes, I'd avoid certain things that might seem too girly, even though they were definitely boys' clothes (patterns, colors, styles). ... At college-age, I even avoided the Miami Vice look because, tall, pale, skinny, still not filled out, wavy hair, slightly higher speaking voice ... I was afraid the look would immediately seem "too gay" and my cover would be blown (by then, I knew I was gay but still hadn't come out.) ... In hindsight, if the guys on Miami Vice could wear that with no objections, and Corey whichever in the Lost Boys could wear that look, then why was I worried? (Yes, I know there was something going around whether the character in Lost Boys was gay.) But my point there still reveals a lot of my mindset and social strictures. So what about all that? -- Why is it that our wider culture is so afraid of masculine versus feminine roles or perceived behavior or of sexua orientation, that clothing and mannerisms, hairstyle or hair length, any of it, is so big an issue or problem? (At the same time, it was OK for a boy or man to wear a pink shirt, if it was an appropriately male dress shirt, and one guy, very straight, could wear a pink shirt for a surfer beach bum look ... but other kinds of pink would like not be OK. -- Billy Elliott would not appear until years later, with Michael in that tutu. I believe I only saw it after my parents were gone. -- So we get tis long complicated weird history with how masculinity was restricted and how it was contrasted with (negatively framed) femininity. (Never mind earlier periods in history which would really overcomplicate the discussion.)
Have you seen Dog Day Afternoon it’s very good dealing with this. If a fucking heist movie made by a major studio in the early 70’s where the main character played by Al Pacino who’s robbing a bank to pay for his partner to get realignment surgery can be done sensitively some 40+ years ago why are we getting such offensive dross now. 😡🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
May I pick you up on something the 3 movies you mentioned Like it hot,Tootsie and Doubtfire whilst ok with cross dressing are also injected with a deep homophobia so basically what positive they give with one hand they take away with another. What I’m trying to say (badly) is we’d hopefully be disgusted by a racist movie even though it treated LGBTQI issues well!
Thank you for this film. If you allow, some rants from a person consuming media in Poland, thus being able to see films unavailable to U.S. viewers:
First film I saw a man dressed as a woman (it was not ment as a crossdressing, it was, I suppose, ment to be a joke, a very in your face transvestite hooker) it was in French-Japanese comedy "Wasabi". Not a good inpression, I tell you. The whole film was a hymn for hypermasculinity, and all (I mean all) instances of men not being macho enough was a reason to laugh (in films logic).
On the other hand, in Polish mainstream films crossdressers appear only in comedies, only as dragqueens, and almost always as a singer in a gay club. Like a prop on a set, not an actual charakter. Better than being bottom of a joke, but still pretty stereotipical.
I do know one instance when it was decided that gender of a person playing the main charakter is not important, just that they want it to be the best performance possible. 2004 Polish film "Mój Nikifor" (My Nikifor) tells story of a real Polish painter, Nikifor. Long story short he was played by one of the best theatrical actresses: Krystyna Feldman, a she was brilliant. Nikifor wasn't at all a transperson, but I think this proves than there are instances where art can go beyond our perception of body.
Just wanna let you know that hooker is a slur aimed at full service sex workers.
don't know if you've talked about this yet, but I'm curious about your opinion on Angel from Rent - it's never been confirmed whether Angel is a drag queen or a trans woman, and I'd like your take on it.
Funny, I always thought Angel was clearly a trans woman. Maybe I'm wrong...
I’d love to hear your opinion on the show Tales of the City on Netflix. It’s largely focused on the LGBTQ+ community in San Francisco: I was wondering specifically if it’s representation of transgender people was good representation or not.
Love the channel!
“You are loved and you are valid”. I really needed to hear that today, thank you 😊
Thank you very much for your thoughts on this. I found this video really eye-opening.
And the only cross-dressing character in media I can think off right now who isn't just there for comedy and who isn't forced to dress like a women is DEA Agent Dennis, Denise Bryson from Twin Peaks (1991). He dressed as a women for an undercover job, but he kept dressing because he just felt more comfortable when doing so. And he just got accepting reactions from his colleagues. Might not be perfect, but a hole in the pattern wall.
While focusing on the male side of crossdressing I am reminded of two movies with the opposite end; "She's the Man" and "Morocco" which had female characters dressing as men. Although referring to the stereotype within "Will & Grace" I have noticed that the gay and lesbian characters are displayed on a spectrum. An example is with each of the main characters; Will; openly but not expressively nor flamboyantly gay, Jack; openly and flamboyantly gay (acts more like a teenager half the time), Karen; bisexual, but never expressively defined that way, and Grace; depicted as straight (at least twice depicted as potentially bisexual).
Note: "Will & Grace" had a gay writer, Jack was played by a gay actor, and Karen was played by a bisexual actress.
Although mentioning the "forced into" aspect I was reminded of the character Albert in "The Birdcage" who works as a drag queen while it's Dustin Hoffman's (I might be wrong as I haven't seen the movie in a few years) character who has to in order to leave the club. It seems that until recently acceptance of crossdressing in drag culture didn't become popular until Ru Paul's Drag Race, which one can hope will change the perspective on how it's viewed.
Billy Elliot! I really hope you've seen that movie because it's fantastic (in my opinion) and I think you'll see a positive example of uhhh something you mentioned in this video which I hope you'll feel is outside the pattern. I'm no expert though, so let me know if anyone disagrees :)
Not that I'm a film aficionado, but Priscilla, Queen of the Desert is the only movie I've ever seen that deals with this (among other topics) directly.
I hope that as these sexualities are no longer criminalised and denied, there will be a broader voice coming to the writing and directing as well as the acting. I recall a panel, with six guests. Three straight, three gay and smiling at the balance. Peter Capaldi; Steven Moffat; Pearl Mackie, along with Michelle Gomez; Mark Gatiss; and Matt Lucas.
A bonus for those who love socially awkward humour. Michelle Gomez, absolutely unhinged in 'Green Wing'.
th-cam.com/video/NSTLqtR0V5E/w-d-xo.html
Is this aspect of British comedy seen overseas?
I love these videos. They have helped me so much. They make me feel better about myself. I’m bisexual and gender fluid and watching these videos always makes me feel better.
100% Agree. i find muyself often defending specific instances of things but when it comes down to it, i know that's not really the issue.
I think Billy Elliot might be a good example of this sort of representation. I haven't seen it, but there's a boy who goes into ballet. He's mocked for being a ballet dancer throughout the film because it's girly and he's not allowed, and those people are seen as bad. In the end, it's seen as a great transition that he finally got what he wanted and became a ballet dancer.
This is a great idea that I think I had rolling around in my head, but this has definitely solidified it. It will give me a better way to talk about the trend of games with queer dating options tending to make all of the options bi. Or worse, when they aren't bi but will "go gay just for you". I understand wanting to give players choices and what if a person wants to play a [sex] but also really likes [character] who isn't into [sex]? But that's just how life works for people. Sometimes the person you're interested in just will never be interested in you that way simply because of what you have between your legs. As a bi demisexual, the lack of representation outside of dating sims like this makes it feel like they're saying, "oh, you guys don't exist... unless it's convenient for the player". Specific instances can be defended I'm sure, but the pattern is telling.
On a different note, has anyone ever come across any media with bigender representation? I can't think of any, and as a bigendered person I'd really like to see some.
I know this comment is three years old, but..gender isn't defined by what's in your pants.
An extra layer of frustration is that in so many of these films it would be easy to add on maybe 5 minutes at the start to establish a character cross dressing by choice, perhaps having kept it secret from their family so that later when it's required for the narrative it's just them using already established skills to get through a situation, there can still be tension, and where appropriate comedy around them trying to avoid being found out but without the cross dressing itself being framed as comical or deceptive
I appreciate this doesn't solve the trend of films solely having the same kind of representation but it would certainly improve the quality of representation in those kinds of films
Very great points and incredibly informative! I was already very aware because I'm LGBTQ+ myself but have also taken a course in gender studies, but I still learned something new from this video. So thank you!
See, I've kind of come to view (after a long, long, LOOOOONG journey of thinking about it and re-evaluating the issue) that, as you say, since the PATTERNS are what is really important, the real goal is to DESTROY THE PATTERN. And that really the more effective way to do that, is to just, well...add a LOT more dots to the graph, so to speak. So, I kind of some to think that it's much better and more important just to have MORE and MORE DIVERSE representations in all senses, than to criticize each individual instance.
Because replacing a certain narrow pattern with a DIFFERENT narrow pattern is ultimately not going to be all that beneficial--it'll just end up trading one stereotype or shallow trope with different stereotype or shallow trope. Which we've actually seen happen. The "the only gay in the story dies" being replaced by "the only gay in the story is a sassy best friend," for example. So, instead of responding with "no gays should die in media ever" or "the sassy gay best friend is a stereotype and therefore should be abolished," it might be more productive to go, "okay, let's keep our tragic gay stories AND our gay best friend stories...and then ALSO push for a bunch of OTHER TYPES of stories too. (Like, seriously. Just...a BUNCH of other types of stories. LITERALLY ALLLLLL THE CONCEIVABLE STORIES, IN FACT.") In the end, I think answer will be an emphases on "more" representation, not as much on "good" representation--like with that poverb about the pots. Being upset when a queer supporting character is underdeveloped or gets killed off in a TV show or is mostly just comic relief (which, yeah, pisses me off too) I think misses part of the point--which is that we should really be fighting for more queer characters in LEAD ROLES, since those characters are generally the ones that get more development and don't get killed off, or that it should become normal to have more than one queer character in a cast. Picking apart each individual example of representation distracts from the fact that LGBTQ+ characters are still massively, proportionally underrepresented in media. Stereotypes and harmful tropes suck, yes. But trying to extract them one by one is not going to work. Instead, if we simply bombard the culture with massive, unrelenting, diverse queer characters throughout all of media, eventually those stereotypes are simply going to be drowned out and become obsolete. In a sense, I almost think continuing to fixate on them helps them keep their power.
It's more complicated than that of course, because a lot of these old patterns have created understandably hurtful responses in those communities--and some tropes are just innately awful and kinda need to die (like cis straight men being violently sick in response to trans women as a source of comedy, for instance). But I think, sometimes, there can be too strong of an emphases an getting the EXACT "right" kind of representation, instead of prioritizing just flooding the market with so many differing examples of said representations that the stereotypes and tropes are literally drowned to death. Till we make having queer characters in media so goddamn COMMON that no one can even remember what the stereotypes and tropes WERE, and they're forced to view queer people as PEOPLE, and as a group made up of diverse individuals all with their own unique stories to tell. True representation will be when there CAN be "bad" representation of a group and have that be FINE--and that can only happen if there's first just A WHOLE LOT MORE OF IT. And I also sometimes take issue with things like, depictions as effeminate gay men being dismissed for being "stereotypes"--because there are some effeminate gay men, and having who you are be dismissed as a stereotype can feel really hurtful too. The solution is not to say "depictions of effeminate gay men are bad and we shouldn't support them" because that's almost like saying "BEING an effeminate gay man is bad and we shouldn't support them." Instead, we should look at that trend and say, "Wow, we need a WHOLE LOT MORE gay men in media, with a WHOLE LOT MORE diversity. Let's get on that."
I'm not making a blanket statement not to be critical, or to let underrepresented people be depicted as jokes without examination, or that the hurt that comes from the perpetuation of tropes and stereotypes isn't real or valid, but I AM saying that maybe framing the discussion in terms of what NOT to do, versus what we SHOULD do (ie: have a LOT more representation for these various disenfranchised groups, and depict them in a wide range of experiences, genres, and character traits, generally just treat them like people, and normalize having them fill a wide range of roles within a story), we might be shooting ourselves in the foot a bit. Like you said, the problem is that those are the ONLY stories--so lets make some other ones, to the point where those are just a few dots on the graph, equal with a bunch of other ones.
I think basically what I'm saying maybe is that fixating too much on the individual instances of representation and how "good" they are is kinda like arguing about the quality of the scraps we're being given, and instead we should be demanding a whole damn feast at the table with full access to all the dishes white cis het men get. I'm not gonna quibble about if the single grape I got was slightly squishy, or that ALL I've gotten was grapes since god know's when---I'm just not gonna stop shouting till I get access to the whole damn grocery store.
I'm curious if you've ever seen Tim Burton's "Ed Wood", as it's one of the few instances I can think of where a man cross-dresses out of choice and is very open about why he does it and his sexuality; he is straight, he seems happy with his born gender, he just happens to find women's clothes more comfortable. But at the same time the way the movie handles it does also seem like it's playing up another 'quirk' of an eccentric director, so it's not without problems.
Oh and your bringing up of that cliche made me think of Chandler's 'dad' in Friends, who is played by a cis woman. However; I don't remember it ever being said that they are trans, I think they were just a crossdresser, as I don't remember them ever calling them by female pronouns.
I like the cross dressing in Princess Jellyfish. He does it because he wants to, he looks amazing and is admired by women for being beautiful and confident. Hopefully we can make more stuff like it
Hi. While watching this video, the old John Waters films, especially with Devine came to mind as a contrast to the patterns you brought up. I am curious how you feel his depiction of gender-bending characters fits into the larger media narrative. Also, love the necklace!
Another well reasoned, well spoken explanation of why LGBTQ+ issues matter to everyone. Thank you!
I agree with you on the pattern thing but I still think that the guy who plays Lex Luther was hot in Sorority Boys, even if it wasn't a very good movie.
Only 30 seconds in but I LOVE YOU NECKLACE.
While this video focuses on the trope of Crossdressing as Comedy when it comes to men dressing as women, there is another pattern to be observed when it comes to the inverse--women dressing/presenting as men.
Any story I've seen where women/girls present as men/boys shows the action done out of a necessity because being in their position as someone female isn't enough to help them get by.
Think of every film or story you've seen where this is a plot point. The heroine must present as male to either save herself or someone she loves from certain doom or to overcome an obstacle presented due to her gender.
Mulan- Mulan becomes Ping to save her father from the draft.
The Breadwinner- Parvana becomes Aatish after her father is imprisoned so her family can have food on the table.
The tragedy of Albert Nobbs.
Victor/Victoria- She assumes the persona of a crossdressing man because there is no market for female performers.
The pattern I observe in examples like these is that being a woman isn't enough. Even today it's not enough to assume she's competent to fulfill her goal in a male-dominated area. Regrettably the one example I have for contemporary female drag is She's the Man, a mediocre adaptation of Twelfth Night, but the problem still rings true. She was denied entry to her school's soccer team because of her gender, so she assumed the role of her brother and played at another school.
If I misinterpreted this, or if there are other patterns you noticed, please let me know. I'm open to learning and discussing these story patterns.
I think you may be conflating a reflection of women's places in society in the times these films are set with a message of the films itself.
In other words, I don't believe it's the films themselves that are saying that being a woman isn't enough, but the societies and times that these films are set do believe that. Which then forces the situation, not because it's a message of the film, but because it's an element of the world building. I think that's at least a partial factor as to why the vast majority of "women passing as men" stories are set further in the past than "men passing as women" stories.
I think an example for good representation is the Zatoichi movie, in which a pair of siblings is performing as Geishas to get revenge.
- SPOILERS for the movie -
They are brother and sister, but present both as women and the brother is actually "the pretty one" who seduces the men they perform for. At the end of the movie, after they had their revenge and everything is over, one character asks the brother why they are still dressed as a woman and they answer: "Because I like myself that way."
That was an excellent video. I get what you mean about patterns in depiction and how being able to point to and defend a specific instance does not alter the fact that the specific instance in question is effectively identical to numerous other "specific instances" throughout the media.
I have numerous friends and family who are LGBTQ+ and each is unique. Yes, I have a very flamboyant and effeminate gay male cousin who looks and acts like he stepped off the set of _Queer Eye for the Straight Guy_ but the fact that he, personally, is like that does not legitimise that being the *only* facet of male homosexuality depicted in movies and TV shows any more than it's legitimate to only depict men dressing as women as comedic and as "straight normal guys forced to do it by extenuating circumstances".
As a would-be/wannabe writer, one of my big aims is to depict people in a realistic fashion without falling back on stereotypes and without (conversely) drawing the criticism that I'm not writing them true to life. Being mindful that there are distinct patterns and tropes that keep recurring with monotonous regularity, I've actually developed somewhat of an aversion to writing someone who fits those patterns, regardless of how "realistic" or "justifiable" that character might be in the context of the story.
I really appreciate this video and your take on portrayal of LGBTQ+ people in the media. Great comments and points about the habit of using men to play trans women and women to play trans men in the media. I hadn't actually thought of that until you pointed it out and when you did it was "yeah, that's exactly what they do." I actually wracked my brains for an instance in which they actually had a woman play the part of the trans woman and could only think of *one* I've seen in which they did so - can't remember the name of the film, however.
Cis bi girl here. I dont know enough about trans/gender issues, and my experience as a bi girl really is not too helpful without more information. I find your videos really helpful in understanding some issues, and I do other research too. Not to objectify you or anything, but also you are beautiful.
I agree that gay male depictions in the early 2000’s was pretty homogenous. Always camp, always flamboyant, always obsessed with musical theatre, always obsessed with fashion, and always talking in double entendre, always fem. will and grace, sex and the city, queer as folk, there was little variety in personality, race yes, personality no. And though I did know people who were like that, I know more who definitely are not, myself included (I cannot stand most musicals and have zero fashion sense). But the pattern was also at one point the “fabulous gay friend” stereotype for the main female protagonist in romantic comedies, like every open minded straight woman has a gay best friend, but they were always written the same way, snarky and obsessed with fit straight men. No wonder conservatives have funny ideas about us when Hollywood just churn out the same stock character like photocopies of their bare ass at the christmas party.