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I once played a nosferatu clan character completely absent from the actual play area via internet and texts, was so fun! There were cameras set up in the play area, and I could access those to see what the others were up to! I had a blast, the other players had a blast, and the gm had a blast! My character never showed her tentacled face in any scene, but had a big influence!
Huh. That is probably the first time I've ever heard of someone playing "The Girl/Guy in the chair". You'd think that might be boring on first look, but It's neat to hear that it worked out for you. I'll have to keep this in mind :)
We are only TWO backers of Curseborne deluxe (with slipcase, making of, and dice) before I'll agree to do the bloodlines ranking video! Thank you to the three people who have backed and contacted me so far!
Personally I find the idea of a vampire mastering one of their natural weaknesses like fire compelling - it is mastery over one's Beast. rather than giving in to the instinct to flee you train yourself to command the flames, little by little. In short - fireball chucking Dracula is cool. :p
With the Ministry/Followers of Set in prior editions there were at least a few Elders who were convinced their clan was a separate species from other vampires. With the dissolution of Serpentis, the removal of paths, and the rebrand, the aesthetic identity of the "clan" is gone. Speaking as a diehard Setite, we should view the identification as our kind as a "clan" as heresy of the immature. The Ministry as a clan are our theological descendants, like illiterate children who have left the temple services to play with their neighbor friends. We are obligated to foster them in the faith or failing that, set the Cohort of Wepwawet upon them. Speaking as a VtM player, the Setites brush up on some concepts that can be very uncomfortable: seduction, addiction, religious abuse, etc. But those concepts have direct analogs with the Tremere: lust for knowledge/power, the need to withhold it, and the exploitation of their lessers. In this comparison, the Tremere are scientists and the Setites are priests, but in action they are the same. And both clans have had their hierarchies demolished in V5. As far as the strength of identity for the Ministry, in name and in concept, it is far newer than the Hecata or the Banu Haqim, so it's newness makes it seem weak in identity. They are now a part of the Anarchs, but where are the Ministry Barons? Who lead them to this alliance? Who stands as the clan's poster child when Hesha stands aloof? I feel that the biggest weakness of identity for the Ministry is it lacks an iconic figurehead - a touchstone for the audience. The concept is there, the lore is plenty, but who have they sent to represent them? Where are the Ministry?
Tremere jumped a few ranks up for me in V5, the concept of the broken clan, redefining yourself or upholding a crumbling hierarchy. The different philosophies of magic coming to the forefront. A failing institution dispensing a unique ressource speaks more to me than a monolith.
Personally the Toreador feel better as the Gallery Owner then the Artist. Partly because the Gallery Owner overlaps with the patron a lot for me in being similar roles but also because the clan flaw being so broad, makes them feel more like they are addicted to the high life, the party, the decadence and while that certainly brings a great appreciation for art of many sorts with it. An artist feels like they'd be more focused or obsessed on their art in particular, over the beauty of everything and it can put me off choosing the Toreador for artist character concepts. I suppose I could sum it up as, for me they work best as the Daeva!
@@TheGentlemanGamer Yeah I'd agree with most of that, the Daeva feel like a refinement of the Toreador concept that takes out a distraction that was narrowing the scope of the clan. Which is why the Toreador are a strong concept but with a flaw that feels out of place. Only part I'd disagree on is I'd put the Ventrue on the same level as the Daeva. Where my taste matches yours in placing the Ventrue and Nosferatu.
I'm actually playing a Ministry character right now and it's great - I liked the idea that the collapse of the Sabbat and the Setites changing their dogma from worshipping their Antediluvian to saying that they revered the Set inside us all basically presented a unique ecumenical opportunity for the Ministry and its antitribu, since there was no longer an unbridgeable philosophical gap between the Serpents of Light and the Setites over being a Methuselah cult. So my character (a gay mutual aid safe supply support network rave mom kinda kid from Montreal), upon his Sabbat family being obliterated in the Gehenna War, goes West, now publicly and sincerely a very civic-minded Kindred happy to counsel other Kindred as a member of one of the three pillar-clans of the Anarchs, but in his heart believes the Anarchs are worse than the Camarilla since the Camarilla at least let you look your enemy, oppressor, master in the eyes, where the Anarchs want you to sign up to be your own policeman, and is counselling his coterie-mates towards true freedom (ie, killing their sires). He longs for the communal havens and philosophical debates and family vibe of Montreal as it was and wants to build a family again, but his only model of a stable family is a fanatical death-cult, so in trying to build a new family around him he can't help but build it in the model of a cult. So I get to both play someone who is interested in, likes, and is a fan of the other PCs - which is really great! - but also has weird sinister cultish manipulation undertones like a proper Setite. It is true that I don't really have much use for Protean on this character and if the game gets that far and I want to buy a third discipline might talk to the gm about exchanging it for blood sorcery or something.
As for malkavians, i think it would be interesting if all malks were actually sane, but cursed with a Cassandra complex, resulting in everyone thinking they were insane.
Great list, Matthew! I don't necessarily agree with every pick, but it would be boring if we'd all feel the same, wouldn't it? ^^ As for Malkavian, I think V5 actually did a great job at making an effort to distance the clan from leaning too much into mental disorders, and they really are to me such a flexible clan that you can go in pretty much every direction with and make it work. For me, personally, I've always preferred playing up their role as seers, and scary seers at that. I don't even see them as insane; if anything, they see too clearly, it's just hard for them to fathom and make sense of the information they have access to, thus they seem "mad" by other clans. A clan that struggles to find their sense of self, of being understood, and that is deeply feared for their unnatural insight... that is really the crux of their appeal to me.
I've never known a member of the Romany community who read V:tM and didn't like the Ravnos. It was representation rather than stereotyping, IMHO and theirs as afr as they've ever shared with me. The white saviour complex that otherised them into be rejected, on the other hand, has always been patronising, "you poor weak child, you can't defend yourself" perhaps even "you illiterate fool, you don't understand you're being offended" kind of thing. Good use of 'snowflake', by the way. It's not fragility, it's being something special and/or unique.
The British man puts Ventrue as the top dog. I am shocked. Just shocked. /joking More seriously, I full heartedly agree. The Ventrue are a clan with lots of possible concepts for characters but without the negative baggage of so many other clans.
@@TheGentlemanGamer its an actual weakness to because enemies can target your preference. Also, its a nice way to help define your ventrue. Why do they have this feeding preference?
I've been playing Ventrue for 20 years. I have only played two non-Ventrue in that entire time. A Gangrel and a Nosferatu. The Ventrue for me are defined by the desire and will to be THE BEST. It isn't just to rule over those beneath them... in fact I RARELY played the Ventrue that way as a PC... but the belief that if one is to be at the top, one must always find new places to travel. That it isn't enough to sit atop the mountain... but to see the stars and not wonder as the Ravnos or Malkavian do... but to think to yourself: "How dare there still be something above me" and strive ever onward. To me it's the only way immortality makes sense to me... but I also enjoy the absurdity of it as well. Because we've fought, met true death, sired, annihilated people's places and things in levels unheard of.... for some pale blue dot, that we'll never escape. To advance to deification that what we will never move beyond (flesh) is an angst that I find so incredibly fun and interesting. And no one does it for me quite like Ventrue. And I have played every sect version of the Ventrue, gone against type, played those burdened by the Bane and who thrive in it. Easily one of the most customizable clans because to be Queen, only the Queen gets to determine what that looks like.
1. Toreador (best mix of powers and fun roleplaying an Anne Rice vampire) 2. Tremere (interesting magical dynamic with power gaining in their clan system) 3. Malkavian (fun when things like the Bloodlines game really lets you feel like you are crazy)
I've always found the Ventrue played as monochrome characters. The bard who tries to bed everything, to take from a D+D trope. Or the bland politician (yes, a BLAND politician)... 'just do what I say' * no role-playing to speak of *.
I know people hate the Tremere, but Mage was always my true passion among the WoD lines, and Mages that escape by usurping immortality from Vampires so they can do Magic in a world ruled by consensus is fantastic. I can see where if seen in isolation (a vampire in a vampire game) it might seen as the odd man out, but I think it works so well in the broader lore. I don't think we necessarily need to be reductionist as to always strive to boil down things to their core, recognizable concepts. I know that's necessary in game like Curseborne, mainly because you have so much ground to cover. I think the rewrites of both Ravnos and Setites diluted them too much, and I think there's a lot of space for well-written and nuanced representations of historically-opressed groups like the Romani. The Werewolf discussion around Mr. Sambrano and his work comes to mind.
I feel the same as you about ravnos. i like them, but i love MY version of them, which are basically nosferatu that live outside of sewers with the compulsion of blackmail and bane of being hunted wherever they go. This combination makes them shunned by other clans, masters of secrets/illusions, and transient at the same time. As for my second favorite clan, salubri, i would change their bane to increasing the blood potency of their ghouls, thus forcing them to guard their ghouls with their unlives. This turns salubri into reluctant warriors who imprison their ghouls for their own safety.
I've come around regarding the Ventrue. I used to find them boring, but enjoy them since making clan connects for our Ventrue player character. Craig's suprising character from the RM RP Chicago game you played in also helped get me out of the financier/mob boss/Medieval European noble defaults. I disagree about Thaumaturgy and the Tremere, but I do agree it can end up going overboard and chanigng the tone of the game. The other Disciplines already lead to a sort of dark super hero comics feel once theyre stronger, so I'm not too bothered by the occasional magical fire. I'd probably spend a lot of time homebrewing adjustments if we had a Tremere player character though. I like the Ravnos, and completely understand the need to update them. I'm actually surprised the Mallavians are the ones with the reputations as tricksters when it's Ravnos who make illusions. I finally got the Nosferatu more involved in our game. Like you said, coming up with different ideas for their monstrous appearance has been interesting. Part of me wants to have a Malkavian take over the city, just to scare the players (not the characters). They do feel like Hard Mode play, even as story teller. Your 1989 Toreador game was great! Ive been meaning to include an ancilla like the horrible sire since our game started
When I try to think of how I would rank the Clans, I feel a bit conflicted over how the Clan officially is in canon versus my own interpretation. I have my own vision of many of the Clans which, in my opinion, makes them more compelling and influences how I would rank them.
Oof! Ranking the Ministry and Lasombra at Neonate. I'm not saying I disagree with your take, since they are undoubtedly two of the more defined clans with problematic expressions, but you wound me, sir! I'm also looking forward to how you present the Ravnos.
Nice ranking, not just what goes where, but the arguments for why. I don't think I've ever played an rpg as RAW, I've always removed some stuff and houseruled other. Often I homebrew the crap out of a game. I feel the powers should never be gimmicks, just to give something special to a clan or define them. Powers are there in the blood, some clans can access them better than others. Imo Blood Sorcery should in its core be the same for Tremere, Tzimisce and Banu Haqim. They can have different rituals and certain benefits or ❤drawbacks. Other paths should be fun cantrips, nothing powerful. I did change blood level 2 to a ritual to create containers for vitae, keeping an amount up to a maximum fresh longer, with the base power being a blood telekinesis. Either creepy or practical to remove stains! 😂 I removed power 5 from the game, just too evoker like. Instead... surprise: the awesome level 5 Vicissitude power to turn part or your whole body to blood. Like the mist in protean 5, an epic power to be much much harder to kill. This ties into my approach to Vicissitude as both an amalgam of Protean and Blood Sorcery and a taint of both... You can increase this taint by increasing both, gaining the Vicissitude powers as a free path equal to the lowest of the two. I'm in doubt how to deal with Necromancy, it could be a path (or two with spirit separately) for blood sorcery, so you can have both. or a totally different approach that exclude the regular path of blood. Anyway, the Cappadocians had a link with Euthanatos mages instead of Hermetic. I think it would be cool these mages run the show and the Hecate are the remainder they salvaged from the predecessor clans. Obtenebration is like Vicissitude (and Dementation) a special taint, linked to antediluvians. You can only have one, and Nosferatu are immune to all... Chimerstry might be one too, or just tuned down to a Blood Sorcery amalgam with Obfuscate. Basically Obfuscate 3 made real (for cameras) is already a huge boost. Other illusions or reality alterations could be a balance issue imo, but fun if done well. Not yet homebrewed it more than this. I did make head cannon the True Ravnos have both (plus animalism or protean). They have a bloodline they fostered and keep around that are totally clueless: the Ravnos from the rules with all the awkward stereotypes. This whole bloodline is one big hoax. But the True Ravnos can pretend to be of this harmless clan that seems not to have any agenda or cohesion.
I always had this concept in mind at periods of my life when I'd write lots of characters and short campaigns but it never quite fit the setting unless I wrote a new clan. It's somewhere between a Tremere librarian/researcher and a Gangrel naturalist. Maybe in studying the world, the earth, nature, the character uncovers something that's a blend of Protean, Animalism and Thaumaturgy in concept... Earth/wilderness magic. It's maybe an overdone concept in other games, even in Mage you might say, but I felt there was a conceptual hole in the kinds of vampires in the books. Admittedly, I understand vampires are super(un) natural to their core.
I used to always give Ventrue the cold shoulder as the ‘CEO’ clan but a friend challenged me to crack open the clan book and try one out for a game and I’ll be damned if they haven’t grown on me.
I love the seer Malk. My issue is that it feels like WW felt the need to screw certain clans, and give others a free pass. Malks and Nossies, both deal with issues of the "curse in the blood", thus passing their issues on to their retainers. This leaves me feeling that the clans with the worst drawbacks, have an added bonus drawback. I hate that.
I don't see the Malkavians as problematic with metal illness representation, more of a wonderfully unmasked representation of, at least, ADHD. This is probably why I resonate with the clan so much.
the malkavians can be excellent with the right writer. they aren't inherantly offensive but their status of "mad vampires" can easily lead writers to create material that is problematic. I love the malks, they are one of the most interesting clans when written by someone who understands how to write respectfully.
@@TheGentlemanGamer Elder tier, big win for the Ravnos today! I'm really honestly surprised to see not only you but the other commenters here sharing in my own view on the Ravnos; that being that we all love our specific interpretation of the Ravnos. Personally, I like to focus on the Brahmin bloodline and have them be a clan of mystics and occultists, but in general I also like to focus on the idea of specific Ravnos families that are practically bloodlines onto themselves; like how they're presented in Dark Ages. Another thing I like to focus on is their connection to the Fae. In my mind, they are THE Fae clan, with the Malkavians coming in at second place. The hilarious amount of revisions done to the Ravnos throughout the editions has left us with a clan that honestly can only really be loved by those who have a specific vision for them, but honestly, that all just feels very "Ravnos". Such a clan of potential, I love them
I share your thoughts on the Ravnos, I can't remember if I made this up, it came to me in a dream, or a I stole it, but I run the ravnos compulsion as to fulfill their dharma as related to their varna or caste. Europeans are most familiar with the untouchables that migrated to Europe, who have the standard flaw, but the ravnos as a clan are sorted into the 5 tiers of caste system.
Just my 2 cents about the malks. Yeah, I know this "Yeeeehaaa, Iam running throw the city with two burning chainsaws"-Malks can be pretty annoying and I apologize for my gnawed Bretheren. But the Clan´s greatest weakness is his greatest strength: They are mentally Ill. I have my fare share of problems with my gray matter and it is so relaxing to play a malk, with a understanding gm of course. Because I can´t be there every weekend, every month, whatever. The moment my brain is hitting me, I am unable to play. Call up the GM, tell him you are unable to play and you get the okay. Your Malk doesn´t move, because reasons. Feeding? No Problem: Someone heard my desperate calls over the madness network and brings me food. No other TTRPG allows us psychos ( sry if I offended anyone with this), to feel like an actual part of the story. I can bring my fair share of bad GM´s: "I expected you to play out your psychosis way harder", " I thought your Malk has depression? Why is he walking for 2 Minutes and not constantly crying?" "You are manic, i expect you to laugh at every bad joke hysterical". Sry for the long text and sry for all the typos( my entire text is red^^), but I am from Germany and english is only my second language.
Again I agree with this analysis more than less. Nosferatu as Antediluvian is maybe a stretch. Tremere are Neonate for me because they aren't a clan - but I love them as 'bad guys' and like caitiff or thin-bloods, there has to be vampires that those with high enough blood potency need to feed and hunt and not feel bad about it.
Tremere are my favorate clan and I disagree with you. They belong in discharge. They're desperates trying to be mages skinwalking vampires. I would happily drag them through the mud any night (lovingly).
Why did the Tremere need fireballs & lightning bolts? To deal with the skewed Sabbat demographics at larps. Also, I came to resent people begging me to teach them thaum.
I actually liked the ministry the way I saw them as different from the setites was that ministry was more like a an emerging religious movement from the original ultimately they all believe in the same thing and want the same outcome it's just that the setites aren't going to sugarcoat it and are more up front about it basically Old testament versus New testament
Question: is there a place where I can read up on the paths of thaumaturgy? I'll also have to find some other ventrue characters, that I like better than Mr. Temple (he felt too kind to be a ruler of an empire imo) Also, cries in Lasmbra. Thank you for your insight. I shall continue to learn about things in VtM
V5 Tzimisce are really a catastrophe. To make Vicissitude, the defining discipline of the Dragons, available to basically everyone as a Protean power is just a disgrace and to change their weakness (yes, weakness, not "bane") to an ocd for hoarding, turning them into nothing more than undead messies, does not do them justice in any way, shape or form. They really dropped the ball with V5, it is a steaming pile of Garou shite.
@TheGentlemanGamer Sane people playing insane people does not really vibe with me... I have worked (only a few weeks) in an asylum and no player character comes close. Here an example. One of the "madnesses" or "disfunctions" we are close to understand ,named highfunctional autism works actually better for gangrel than malkavian.
@@TheOnyxPath Not really ,no. I mean to each their own. But if we take the vtmb malk pc as an example. His only madness is that he talks in pictures of mythology. Or a sane person with a manner of speaking.
Oh how I despair the lowly ranking of the Lasombra, but I suppose it's fair. People take it too far with the "my clan means I can be a dick to you" thing with the Lasombra and Ventrue more than any others. I've even had games where people have antagonized my Ventrue characters with the expectation that I'd put the boot in for the sake of sire and clan, but I suppose that's where years of clan history can take you. At least the Bathorites in Curseborne are good at punching and can do shadow magic :D
@@TheGentlemanGamer None can escape the appeal of pugilism and shadow magic, without removing shadow magic- and what a too-bright dreary world that would be!
Bro why you think putting caittf at discharge was controversial at all?, its the caittf we are talking about, they don't have fans, there's no one to speak against you
This will be one of your shortest videos I’m presuming? Surely you simply mention S tier Lasombra and that’s pretty much a a wrap? No real reason to drag it out any longer by going through the rest.
![[Vampire: The Masquerade] Ranking the Clans](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KTuwX0hyPgQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Vampire: The Masquerade] Ranking the Clans](/img/tr.png)
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I once played a nosferatu clan character completely absent from the actual play area via internet and texts, was so fun! There were cameras set up in the play area, and I could access those to see what the others were up to! I had a blast, the other players had a blast, and the gm had a blast! My character never showed her tentacled face in any scene, but had a big influence!
Huh. That is probably the first time I've ever heard of someone playing "The Girl/Guy in the chair". You'd think that might be boring on first look, but It's neat to hear that it worked out for you. I'll have to keep this in mind :)
That's a great Nosferatu report!
We are only TWO backers of Curseborne deluxe (with slipcase, making of, and dice) before I'll agree to do the bloodlines ranking video! Thank you to the three people who have backed and contacted me so far!
I've thrown my hat in this ring as well, so hopefully just one!
@JudyIscariot You crazy fool! Send your proof via matthewdawkins.com
Personally I find the idea of a vampire mastering one of their natural weaknesses like fire compelling - it is mastery over one's Beast. rather than giving in to the instinct to flee you train yourself to command the flames, little by little. In short - fireball chucking Dracula is cool. :p
It works for me with the Ordo Dracul, interestingly.
With the Ministry/Followers of Set in prior editions there were at least a few Elders who were convinced their clan was a separate species from other vampires. With the dissolution of Serpentis, the removal of paths, and the rebrand, the aesthetic identity of the "clan" is gone.
Speaking as a diehard Setite, we should view the identification as our kind as a "clan" as heresy of the immature. The Ministry as a clan are our theological descendants, like illiterate children who have left the temple services to play with their neighbor friends. We are obligated to foster them in the faith or failing that, set the Cohort of Wepwawet upon them.
Speaking as a VtM player, the Setites brush up on some concepts that can be very uncomfortable: seduction, addiction, religious abuse, etc. But those concepts have direct analogs with the Tremere: lust for knowledge/power, the need to withhold it, and the exploitation of their lessers. In this comparison, the Tremere are scientists and the Setites are priests, but in action they are the same. And both clans have had their hierarchies demolished in V5.
As far as the strength of identity for the Ministry, in name and in concept, it is far newer than the Hecata or the Banu Haqim, so it's newness makes it seem weak in identity. They are now a part of the Anarchs, but where are the Ministry Barons? Who lead them to this alliance? Who stands as the clan's poster child when Hesha stands aloof? I feel that the biggest weakness of identity for the Ministry is it lacks an iconic figurehead - a touchstone for the audience.
The concept is there, the lore is plenty, but who have they sent to represent them? Where are the Ministry?
I wrote Indianapolis for Let the Streets Run Red (V5 book) which is a Ministry-run Anarch domain.
Tremere jumped a few ranks up for me in V5, the concept of the broken clan, redefining yourself or upholding a crumbling hierarchy. The different philosophies of magic coming to the forefront. A failing institution dispensing a unique ressource speaks more to me than a monolith.
I'm glad I could shatter them for V5! A lasting mark on the game.
Personally the Toreador feel better as the Gallery Owner then the Artist. Partly because the Gallery Owner overlaps with the patron a lot for me in being similar roles but also because the clan flaw being so broad, makes them feel more like they are addicted to the high life, the party, the decadence and while that certainly brings a great appreciation for art of many sorts with it. An artist feels like they'd be more focused or obsessed on their art in particular, over the beauty of everything and it can put me off choosing the Toreador for artist character concepts. I suppose I could sum it up as, for me they work best as the Daeva!
Daeva > Toreador, Daughters of Cacophony, and Ventrue
@@TheGentlemanGamer Yeah I'd agree with most of that, the Daeva feel like a refinement of the Toreador concept that takes out a distraction that was narrowing the scope of the clan. Which is why the Toreador are a strong concept but with a flaw that feels out of place. Only part I'd disagree on is I'd put the Ventrue on the same level as the Daeva. Where my taste matches yours in placing the Ventrue and Nosferatu.
I'm actually playing a Ministry character right now and it's great - I liked the idea that the collapse of the Sabbat and the Setites changing their dogma from worshipping their Antediluvian to saying that they revered the Set inside us all basically presented a unique ecumenical opportunity for the Ministry and its antitribu, since there was no longer an unbridgeable philosophical gap between the Serpents of Light and the Setites over being a Methuselah cult. So my character (a gay mutual aid safe supply support network rave mom kinda kid from Montreal), upon his Sabbat family being obliterated in the Gehenna War, goes West, now publicly and sincerely a very civic-minded Kindred happy to counsel other Kindred as a member of one of the three pillar-clans of the Anarchs, but in his heart believes the Anarchs are worse than the Camarilla since the Camarilla at least let you look your enemy, oppressor, master in the eyes, where the Anarchs want you to sign up to be your own policeman, and is counselling his coterie-mates towards true freedom (ie, killing their sires).
He longs for the communal havens and philosophical debates and family vibe of Montreal as it was and wants to build a family again, but his only model of a stable family is a fanatical death-cult, so in trying to build a new family around him he can't help but build it in the model of a cult. So I get to both play someone who is interested in, likes, and is a fan of the other PCs - which is really great! - but also has weird sinister cultish manipulation undertones like a proper Setite.
It is true that I don't really have much use for Protean on this character and if the game gets that far and I want to buy a third discipline might talk to the gm about exchanging it for blood sorcery or something.
That sounds like an excellent character.
No hate. Just excruciating judgement!
Get the Banu Haqim over here.
As for malkavians, i think it would be interesting if all malks were actually sane, but cursed with a Cassandra complex, resulting in everyone thinking they were insane.
I think there's mileage in such an idea, but would it be sustainable across multiple chronicles?
Great list, Matthew! I don't necessarily agree with every pick, but it would be boring if we'd all feel the same, wouldn't it? ^^
As for Malkavian, I think V5 actually did a great job at making an effort to distance the clan from leaning too much into mental disorders, and they really are to me such a flexible clan that you can go in pretty much every direction with and make it work.
For me, personally, I've always preferred playing up their role as seers, and scary seers at that. I don't even see them as insane; if anything, they see too clearly, it's just hard for them to fathom and make sense of the information they have access to, thus they seem "mad" by other clans. A clan that struggles to find their sense of self, of being understood, and that is deeply feared for their unnatural insight... that is really the crux of their appeal to me.
I'm glad you enjoy the V5 Malkavians!
I've never known a member of the Romany community who read V:tM and didn't like the Ravnos.
It was representation rather than stereotyping, IMHO and theirs as afr as they've ever shared with me. The white saviour complex that otherised them into be rejected, on the other hand, has always been patronising, "you poor weak child, you can't defend yourself" perhaps even "you illiterate fool, you don't understand you're being offended" kind of thing.
Good use of 'snowflake', by the way. It's not fragility, it's being something special and/or unique.
Admittedly I don't know enough Romani to take a poll.
The British man puts Ventrue as the top dog. I am shocked. Just shocked. /joking
More seriously, I full heartedly agree. The Ventrue are a clan with lots of possible concepts for characters but without the negative baggage of so many other clans.
The feeding requirement curse is also incredibly flavourful.
@@TheGentlemanGamer its an actual weakness to because enemies can target your preference. Also, its a nice way to help define your ventrue. Why do they have this feeding preference?
*drops monocle in utter shock, sputters in british*
I've been playing Ventrue for 20 years. I have only played two non-Ventrue in that entire time. A Gangrel and a Nosferatu. The Ventrue for me are defined by the desire and will to be THE BEST. It isn't just to rule over those beneath them... in fact I RARELY played the Ventrue that way as a PC... but the belief that if one is to be at the top, one must always find new places to travel. That it isn't enough to sit atop the mountain... but to see the stars and not wonder as the Ravnos or Malkavian do... but to think to yourself: "How dare there still be something above me" and strive ever onward.
To me it's the only way immortality makes sense to me... but I also enjoy the absurdity of it as well.
Because we've fought, met true death, sired, annihilated people's places and things in levels unheard of.... for some pale blue dot, that we'll never escape. To advance to deification that what we will never move beyond (flesh) is an angst that I find so incredibly fun and interesting. And no one does it for me quite like Ventrue. And I have played every sect version of the Ventrue, gone against type, played those burdened by the Bane and who thrive in it. Easily one of the most customizable clans because to be Queen, only the Queen gets to determine what that looks like.
Wow, that's a lot of dedication to the Blue Bloods!
1. Toreador (best mix of powers and fun roleplaying an Anne Rice vampire)
2. Tremere (interesting magical dynamic with power gaining in their clan system)
3. Malkavian (fun when things like the Bloodlines game really lets you feel like you are crazy)
That's a solid top three. Unfortunate about the central pillar, but we'll live.
I'm a Tremere fan and i think the changes to Blood Sorcery was the best thing to happen to the Tremere along with shattering the pyramid
I'm glad you liked them! Some of my finest demolition work.
No matter what, this is going to Spicy. And I'll be here for it.
I've always found the Ventrue played as monochrome characters.
The bard who tries to bed everything, to take from a D+D trope. Or the bland politician (yes, a BLAND politician)... 'just do what I say' * no role-playing to speak of *.
Booo. I disagree totally.
I know people hate the Tremere, but Mage was always my true passion among the WoD lines, and Mages that escape by usurping immortality from Vampires so they can do Magic in a world ruled by consensus is fantastic. I can see where if seen in isolation (a vampire in a vampire game) it might seen as the odd man out, but I think it works so well in the broader lore. I don't think we necessarily need to be reductionist as to always strive to boil down things to their core, recognizable concepts. I know that's necessary in game like Curseborne, mainly because you have so much ground to cover.
I think the rewrites of both Ravnos and Setites diluted them too much, and I think there's a lot of space for well-written and nuanced representations of historically-opressed groups like the Romani. The Werewolf discussion around Mr. Sambrano and his work comes to mind.
Very much so. Don't get me wrong: I think there's merit to the Tremere. I like how they're written, but not how they're played.
I 100% agree about nosferatu. They have such an interesting range and such a tragic entry into vampirism.
Nobody seems to be refuting it, oddly!
I feel the same as you about ravnos. i like them, but i love MY version of them, which are basically nosferatu that live outside of sewers with the compulsion of blackmail and bane of being hunted wherever they go. This combination makes them shunned by other clans, masters of secrets/illusions, and transient at the same time.
As for my second favorite clan, salubri, i would change their bane to increasing the blood potency of their ghouls, thus forcing them to guard their ghouls with their unlives. This turns salubri into reluctant warriors who imprison their ghouls for their own safety.
Oh that's an interesting skew on the Salubri.
I've come around regarding the Ventrue. I used to find them boring, but enjoy them since making clan connects for our Ventrue player character. Craig's suprising character from the RM RP Chicago game you played in also helped get me out of the financier/mob boss/Medieval European noble defaults.
I disagree about Thaumaturgy and the Tremere, but I do agree it can end up going overboard and chanigng the tone of the game. The other Disciplines already lead to a sort of dark super hero comics feel once theyre stronger, so I'm not too bothered by the occasional magical fire. I'd probably spend a lot of time homebrewing adjustments if we had a Tremere player character though.
I like the Ravnos, and completely understand the need to update them. I'm actually surprised the Mallavians are the ones with the reputations as tricksters when it's Ravnos who make illusions.
I finally got the Nosferatu more involved in our game. Like you said, coming up with different ideas for their monstrous appearance has been interesting.
Part of me wants to have a Malkavian take over the city, just to scare the players (not the characters). They do feel like Hard Mode play, even as story teller.
Your 1989 Toreador game was great! Ive been meaning to include an ancilla like the horrible sire since our game started
I'm glad you remember that Toreador game! It was a lot of fun.
Thanks for the ampology about the Brujah placement.
On behalf of Clan Angry Punks, I accept it
Not so angry after all.
When I try to think of how I would rank the Clans, I feel a bit conflicted over how the Clan officially is in canon versus my own interpretation. I have my own vision of many of the Clans which, in my opinion, makes them more compelling and influences how I would rank them.
As do I, which is ultimately why I've ranked the Ravnos as high as I have. In the end, it's all subjective.
Oof! Ranking the Ministry and Lasombra at Neonate. I'm not saying I disagree with your take, since they are undoubtedly two of the more defined clans with problematic expressions, but you wound me, sir!
I'm also looking forward to how you present the Ravnos.
I apologise for wounding you, and yet wound you anyhow.
Nice ranking, not just what goes where, but the arguments for why.
I don't think I've ever played an rpg as RAW, I've always removed some stuff and houseruled other. Often I homebrew the crap out of a game.
I feel the powers should never be gimmicks, just to give something special to a clan or define them. Powers are there in the blood, some clans can access them better than others.
Imo Blood Sorcery should in its core be the same for Tremere, Tzimisce and Banu Haqim. They can have different rituals and certain benefits or ❤drawbacks. Other paths should be fun cantrips, nothing powerful.
I did change blood level 2 to a ritual to create containers for vitae, keeping an amount up to a maximum fresh longer, with the base power being a blood telekinesis. Either creepy or practical to remove stains! 😂 I removed power 5 from the game, just too evoker like. Instead... surprise: the awesome level 5 Vicissitude power to turn part or your whole body to blood. Like the mist in protean 5, an epic power to be much much harder to kill. This ties into my approach to Vicissitude as both an amalgam of Protean and Blood Sorcery and a taint of both... You can increase this taint by increasing both, gaining the Vicissitude powers as a free path equal to the lowest of the two.
I'm in doubt how to deal with Necromancy, it could be a path (or two with spirit separately) for blood sorcery, so you can have both. or a totally different approach that exclude the regular path of blood. Anyway, the Cappadocians had a link with Euthanatos mages instead of Hermetic. I think it would be cool these mages run the show and the Hecate are the remainder they salvaged from the predecessor clans.
Obtenebration is like Vicissitude (and Dementation) a special taint, linked to antediluvians. You can only have one, and Nosferatu are immune to all...
Chimerstry might be one too, or just tuned down to a Blood Sorcery amalgam with Obfuscate. Basically Obfuscate 3 made real (for cameras) is already a huge boost. Other illusions or reality alterations could be a balance issue imo, but fun if done well. Not yet homebrewed it more than this.
I did make head cannon the True Ravnos have both (plus animalism or protean). They have a bloodline they fostered and keep around that are totally clueless: the Ravnos from the rules with all the awkward stereotypes. This whole bloodline is one big hoax. But the True Ravnos can pretend to be of this harmless clan that seems not to have any agenda or cohesion.
I completely agree. It's far more evocative to add flavour to Disciplines instead of having them as just flashy weapons.
Back when Abyss Mysticism was a thing in 2nd/3rd, Lasombra where tied with Tremere for my favorite.
Now it's just Tremere.
I was very happy to write so much Abyss Mysticism for the Tome of Secrets sourcebook.
@TheGentlemanGamer I find it makes Lasombra much more interesting. Not just Venture but shadows!
Excited for this!!!
No hate and all our love
to our majestic Methuselah!
All hail!
I always had this concept in mind at periods of my life when I'd write lots of characters and short campaigns but it never quite fit the setting unless I wrote a new clan.
It's somewhere between a Tremere librarian/researcher and a Gangrel naturalist. Maybe in studying the world, the earth, nature, the character uncovers something that's a blend of Protean, Animalism and Thaumaturgy in concept... Earth/wilderness magic.
It's maybe an overdone concept in other games, even in Mage you might say, but I felt there was a conceptual hole in the kinds of vampires in the books. Admittedly, I understand vampires are super(un) natural to their core.
That's an interesting concept!
I used to always give Ventrue the cold shoulder as the ‘CEO’ clan but a friend challenged me to crack open the clan book and try one out for a game and I’ll be damned if they haven’t grown on me.
Like black mold.
I love the seer Malk. My issue is that it feels like WW felt the need to screw certain clans, and give others a free pass. Malks and Nossies, both deal with issues of the "curse in the blood", thus passing their issues on to their retainers. This leaves me feeling that the clans with the worst drawbacks, have an added bonus drawback. I hate that.
I don't mind some curses being more severe than others. I don't like an artificial balance.
I have similar feelings about the Malkavians, for what it’s worth!
We are of like mind!
I don't see the Malkavians as problematic with metal illness representation, more of a wonderfully unmasked representation of, at least, ADHD. This is probably why I resonate with the clan so much.
the malkavians can be excellent with the right writer. they aren't inherantly offensive but their status of "mad vampires" can easily lead writers to create material that is problematic.
I love the malks, they are one of the most interesting clans when written by someone who understands how to write respectfully.
I’m not expecting high marks for my beloved clan Ravnos, but i’m at least hoping they don’t end up in the bottom two tiers
Well they weren't Discharge, at least.
@@TheGentlemanGamer Elder tier, big win for the Ravnos today! I'm really honestly surprised to see not only you but the other commenters here sharing in my own view on the Ravnos; that being that we all love our specific interpretation of the Ravnos. Personally, I like to focus on the Brahmin bloodline and have them be a clan of mystics and occultists, but in general I also like to focus on the idea of specific Ravnos families that are practically bloodlines onto themselves; like how they're presented in Dark Ages. Another thing I like to focus on is their connection to the Fae. In my mind, they are THE Fae clan, with the Malkavians coming in at second place. The hilarious amount of revisions done to the Ravnos throughout the editions has left us with a clan that honestly can only really be loved by those who have a specific vision for them, but honestly, that all just feels very "Ravnos". Such a clan of potential, I love them
I share your thoughts on the Ravnos, I can't remember if I made this up, it came to me in a dream, or a I stole it, but I run the ravnos compulsion as to fulfill their dharma as related to their varna or caste. Europeans are most familiar with the untouchables that migrated to Europe, who have the standard flaw, but the ravnos as a clan are sorted into the 5 tiers of caste system.
That's a good way of tying it to a real world culture.
Just my 2 cents about the malks. Yeah, I know this "Yeeeehaaa, Iam running throw the city with two burning chainsaws"-Malks can be pretty annoying and I apologize for my gnawed Bretheren.
But the Clan´s greatest weakness is his greatest strength: They are mentally Ill. I have my fare share of problems with my gray matter and it is so relaxing to play a malk, with a understanding gm of course.
Because I can´t be there every weekend, every month, whatever. The moment my brain is hitting me, I am unable to play. Call up the GM, tell him you are unable to play and you get the okay. Your Malk doesn´t move, because reasons.
Feeding? No Problem: Someone heard my desperate calls over the madness network and brings me food. No other TTRPG allows us psychos ( sry if I offended anyone with this), to feel like an actual part of the story.
I can bring my fair share of bad GM´s: "I expected you to play out your psychosis way harder", " I thought your Malk has depression? Why is he walking for 2 Minutes and not constantly crying?" "You are manic, i expect you to laugh at every bad joke hysterical".
Sry for the long text and sry for all the typos( my entire text is red^^), but I am from Germany and english is only my second language.
No apology necessary! It was a good post with some fine ideas!
Btw, your idea of the salubri reminds me a lot of the movie 'Midnight Mass.' Highly recommend for anyone who hasn't seen it.
@@drakethesnek6429 Yep, I talk about it in my Mike Flanagan video.
Again I agree with this analysis more than less. Nosferatu as Antediluvian is maybe a stretch. Tremere are Neonate for me because they aren't a clan - but I love them as 'bad guys' and like caitiff or thin-bloods, there has to be vampires that those with high enough blood potency need to feed and hunt and not feel bad about it.
A bit of a stretch?! How dare, sir!
Tremere are my favorate clan and I disagree with you. They belong in discharge. They're desperates trying to be mages skinwalking vampires. I would happily drag them through the mud any night (lovingly).
Hahaha!
Why did the Tremere need fireballs & lightning bolts? To deal with the skewed Sabbat demographics at larps.
Also, I came to resent people begging me to teach them thaum.
I very much hope that that isn't the actual reason.
I actually liked the ministry the way I saw them as different from the setites was that ministry was more like a an emerging religious movement from the original ultimately they all believe in the same thing and want the same outcome it's just that the setites aren't going to sugarcoat it and are more up front about it basically Old testament versus New testament
I'm very glad with how well they've been accepted.
Question: is there a place where I can read up on the paths of thaumaturgy?
I'll also have to find some other ventrue characters, that I like better than Mr. Temple (he felt too kind to be a ruler of an empire imo)
Also, cries in Lasmbra. Thank you for your insight. I shall continue to learn about things in VtM
there's a white wolf wiki that might be helpful? at least i use it to look things up haha
V20 has a lot of them in!
@@TheGentlemanGamer Ah, so I shall buy the book then. Thank you for the recommendation.
@@shadow-r3852
Here's where you can buy it:
www.drivethrurpg.com/product/94815/vampire-the-masquerade-20th-anniversary-edition?affiliate_id=182989
Haven't played in years, but curious what's the problem with Levinbolt? Not asking antagonistically, just curious.
There's nothing about lightning magic that feels vampiric to me.
Nosferatu player here getting satisfied with the ranking :)
You would be!
I do love playing a revolting Nosferatu.
Is it much of a reach?
@TheGentlemanGamer Nope. However, I have seen some bad ones with 'skin conditions' over the years.
Who are we to question the Gentleman’s tier choices?
He's a jam up guy!
V5 Tzimisce are really a catastrophe. To make Vicissitude, the defining discipline of the Dragons, available to basically everyone as a Protean power is just a disgrace and to change their weakness (yes, weakness, not "bane") to an ocd for hoarding, turning them into nothing more than undead messies, does not do them justice in any way, shape or form. They really dropped the ball with V5, it is a steaming pile of Garou shite.
Tell us how you really feel!
Liked the video though ❤️😬
It's looks like Requiem was right about clans
Possibly so...
The malkavians are not really a player character. Constructed madness is actually order
Stereotypes came into being for a reason
I've never heard someone say they're not player character material!
@TheGentlemanGamer Sane people playing insane people does not really vibe with me...
I have worked (only a few weeks) in an asylum and no player character comes close. Here an example.
One of the "madnesses" or "disfunctions" we are close to understand ,named highfunctional autism works actually better for gangrel than malkavian.
@@grimdawn9843 So no fishmalks for you.
@@TheOnyxPath Not really ,no.
I mean to each their own.
But if we take the vtmb malk pc as an example. His only madness is that he talks in pictures of mythology.
Or a sane person with a manner of speaking.
Oh how I despair the lowly ranking of the Lasombra, but I suppose it's fair. People take it too far with the "my clan means I can be a dick to you" thing with the Lasombra and Ventrue more than any others. I've even had games where people have antagonized my Ventrue characters with the expectation that I'd put the boot in for the sake of sire and clan, but I suppose that's where years of clan history can take you.
At least the Bathorites in Curseborne are good at punching and can do shadow magic :D
History repeats itself and Dawkins screams.
@@TheGentlemanGamer None can escape the appeal of pugilism and shadow magic, without removing shadow magic- and what a too-bright dreary world that would be!
Lasombra and Malkavian for sure...
Boooooo
Bro why you think putting caittf at discharge was controversial at all?, its the caittf we are talking about, they don't have fans, there's no one to speak against you
I feel vindicated.
Looking for the symbols, I don't see the Carthians anywhere!
That's Requiem, and they're a covenant.
@TheGentlemanGamer oh, right! Thank you for the clarification!
This tier list is trash, but I respect it. 😂 Good job!
As an occupationalhazard, I'd expect such an opinion from you.
Yeahh Nosferatu is my scnd favourite clan!!
Which is the first?
This will be one of your shortest videos I’m presuming? Surely you simply mention S tier Lasombra and that’s pretty much a a wrap? No real reason to drag it out any longer by going through the rest.
@@loxley75 Who knows, maybe they're classified as "discharge" in my tier ranking!