I did a week long immersive with Bill Plotkin in Australia and along with doing a workshop with Joanna Macy at her home in California and a deep ecology workshop with John Seed, it led to a profound shift in consciousness and got me into ecopsychology as my life's work. Bill Plotkin's work cuts to the very essence of our true ecological Selves. His ideas around the descent to soul, rather than the spiriitual bypassing that most people practice is essential in this trauma inducing society. These ideas are the most authentic ways toward real human development.
@@GigiAzmy There are other people that teach his work that have been trained through Animas Valley Institute if you contact them in Colorado. There are organizations such as Nature's Apprentice here in Australia and other people you could find working in ecopsychology and nature connection programs. Most programs don't go to the depths and breadths of Bill's work including my own but not everyone is ready for Soul Initiation until they've connected to Nature and their own human nature in less intense and all consuming ways. Unfortunately, most people are still trapped in the Matrix and, like Plato's Cave analogy, don't even know what they're missing. We have been thoroughly conditioned to be completely divided against our true Selves which we then project onto our world and separate ourselves from other people and especially the more than human world.
Not often does someone punch one in the guts so hard that it knocks you over.... this gentleman has moved something in me so deeply that I am sitting here stunned... I just came out of a session a few hours before listening to this on how to have an emotionally authentic conversation with my partner... and to hear this man talk in a way that is so fully embodying this emotional authenticity has just rocked me... in a really good way. thank you Nate for this conversation....
Thank you both so much. I loved the positive closing thoughts. Nature based education and our world could be healed faster than we think. Let's all be part of this healing process and remember who we really are and love nature and ourselves.
Thank you so much Nate and Bill for finally pointing the conversation in that direction. Very few people know and understand that: "Learning is not an action of logical preparation for dialectical and ideological ends; nor is it a preparation for the appreciation of art, creativity, history and cultures. Learning is a finely timed state of receptivity where the child's attention is pre-directed by an intrinsic agenda, a need to give specific meaning to archetypal forms. Neoteny is the biological commitment to this learning program, i.e. the construction of identity and meaning through oscillation between the state of separation and relationship, otherness and kinship. This process occupies around 30% of the entire human lifespan. It is a pulse, a spiral, which introduces the human spirit to ever-wider ensembles, from the restricted space of the womb, to the mother and the body, to the earth, to the cosmos. Each of these stages resolves a task necessary to the growth of consciousness and intuition in infancy, childhood and adolescence. Their aim is not to perpetuate the prenatal state of subjective fusion but, through a progressive scale of unions and deviations, to identify a self leading to an increasingly mature sense of connectedness, not separation. " - Paul Shepard
Yeow! These last two podcasts have really exploded open my world. I've been waiting for something, the right thing that fit, for well over a decade. Now suddenly I have not one, but two big projects in front of me, a pile of books to read, and looks like a book to write, as well. After such a long dry spell, I am excited... I can't believe it. Gratitude, Nate! Love the journey that's unfolding here. Synchronicity, with your intuition, guests, and their messages... working together with our group think, seems to be leading us all in a marvelous dance... 🙏💚
Thank you so much. This was another episode that hit me at the exact right time. I’m an old in a Sustainability PhD program, buying myself funded time to read and listen more deeply to figure out exactly what it is that I can do, as the person I was born, to tell stories that will hit the ears of some tiny fraction of society that will resonate with my particular delivery. I’ve been trying to find keywords in the realm of this equation I know/feel (mind and body are not separate + humans and earth are not separate = therefore mental health is an environmental issue). This episode gave me so much. Thank you both.
Dear Nate, this is wonderful and it is the true frontier for change. All spiritual and mystical tradition contains exactly these same principles. It’s great that psychotherapy is attempting at bringing it to the wider world in a different more psychological language. You would greatly appreciate the work abd writings of Claudio Naranjo, a true pioneer and luminary on this topic. He is not with us anymore but his school is spreading in Europe and South America.
"It feels like a proper podcast with you would be like sitting in a cabin somewhere, in the same space, and having multiple hours". To understand what I'm saying, I tell folks they'll need to sit in my garden and drink tea with me for an afternoon. True insight arises *between* the words. Context is *everything*. Through gardening, I can articulate what is most important.
Thanks, Nate. Observing the direction the great simplification has taken since the very early days, fills me with joy and a great hope that we are going to succeed in connecting humanity to the task of creating a more holistic future. Our own development, being the feedback loop to confirm that we are on the right way. Stay sane all.
This man reminded me of Aurélien Barreau, a french physicists that is well known in the french media for popularizing the problems of our civilization against nature. Both of them they talk about poetry to make a deep transformation in our consciousness... I guess that everyone had its own moment of epiphany when dealing with the raw truths about our civilization... surely poetry could help a lot... My method is to keep listening to this kind of podcasts and learn from their wisdom so I do not lose my way 😊 Thanks a lot for making this possible Nate ;)
About the ecological awakening... i grew up in a small town after Franco died, many years ago. I used to read many books, many fairy tales where nature talked to people, animals, plants, trees, i was animist and i grew in a catholic environment, i remember i was very upset when i heard the priest saying that animals had no soul. I was a peaceful kid but i would get into fights to save lizards or any little animal from the torture of other kids. I felt the "jungle stories", by Horacio Quiroga, like if i was witnessing the stories, and now when i read the news about the Amazonas or Borneo forests i feel the pain. I have to admit that i had some years of sleepness, i was like numb to the sufferning of nature, that happened when i lived in other countries, in Belgium, Japan and the USA, i was not too happy then, i felt like i was missing something. When i moved into Turkey, i had like a jump back, i felt like when i was a kid in my village, although the place where i live was not the same, but it had some fields, some nature that made me connect again with nature and fight for her. The situation is not easy for environmentalist tho... but i wanted to say that there can be a reawakening. At least i think that happened to me.
Find your own authentic deliver system for your souls own unique gift(s). That’s our “great work”!to quote Thomas Berry. This is a campfire episode that one has to come back to again for warmth and wisdom.
Thanks, Nate for all your good work. I enacted a vision fast with Bill in 1998 and then participated in various other Soulcraft experiences with him for the next five years. The impact of those experiences continue to serve me to this day.
Great discussion - thank you both Bill and Nate. The essence I take from this comes from Bill ''It's worse than you think, and the solution is closer at hand and easier than you might have feared'.
Thank you, Nate. Please we need more discussion of the sacred, the divine, the personal and cultural malaise that has washed over us for decades. As Blll states, the core issue that the meta crisis finds itself rooted in is deep deep in our psyche. We all must individually turn inward. Thank you for all you do. Q
Nate, I would love so much to hear you speak with Professor John Vervaeke! His cognitive science framing of the metacrisis/polycrisis is brilliant and incredibly insightful
Thank you for sharing your transition by interviewing Mr. Plotkin. Great stuff. Please interview more women who embody the divine feminine…another missing piece of the framework; Caroline Casey, Margaret Wheatley, adrienne maree brown, Starhawk, Mary Hayes Grieco, Evangeline Moen, Brene Brown, Lynne Twist, Pema Chodren, Adirundi Roy, Vandana Shiva, Joanna Macy or any of her crew. The list is vast and the time is short. I trust you to follow your guidance and choose accordingly. Absolutely have heart expanding experiences following your podcast and really appreciate the Frankly’s. Hope to speak with you too regarding creating the “afterpath” a version of the Great Turning. Blessed be.
As Bill was talking about oppression of development, an association that came to mind was Maria Montessori as another person who tried to liberate human development.
This guest is 100x more eloquent and heart-centered than others like Schmachtenberger (and much more humble too). I wish that Plotkin's offerings can reach a wider world audience. ♾🌎🌍🌏
@@systems_logic I don't get what your problem with Schmachtenberger is. Who but the elite of the elite have even a clue about what Plotkin is talking about?
It's like we were watching a different episode. This guy seems like a grifter to me. So interesting how my allies and I can have different experiences, and that's fine. The informant part is that we're allies (and that we protect each other from grift).
This episode is best listened to multiple times. Quite a change from your normal guests but VERY interesting and moving and thought provoking and feeling creating. It does speak to some small inner place where we can intuitively or innately recognize some "truth" even if "objectively" this sounds hokey and spiritual and new age strange and "unscientific".
This gives a sense of resolution of an internal conflict I’ve carried for most of my life. I’m so grateful. 😊 I’ve followed and found a community here where most others only have a blank stare.
I LOVE the Great Simplification's combination of pragmatic realism and deep spiritual awareness. Nate Hagen's is a "systems analyst/specialist" who also has a beautiful human heart and a big brain. Compared to most of us (especially our elected "deciders") his awareness of our present moment in human history should be instructive. Machiavellian pragmatism has over-run the human species and the natural world. We are ALL living amidst a song/poem/cosmic mystery that most often gets overlooked amidst our political and economic and mad-made religious mythologies. The Great Simplification gives us a glimpse in to ALL of them. This attempt at wisdom is the most we can hope for.
This comment is so perfectly stated. We need renaissance humans who can balance intellect, will, and spirit holistically. The aborigines of Australia had this story that if we fail to sing our own song the world will continue to deteriorate. Thanks GS for the song contribution.
Don’t know why Nate but Bill Plotkin reminded me of the late Rutger Hauer (RIP). Rutger Hauer wrote this little speech himself for his character Replicant Roy Batty in “Blade Runner” (1982). Below👇spoken towards the film’s closing scenes (from one of my favourite all time sci-fi films), there’s something quite poetic about it: "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die." And I’ll remember Bill Plotkin’s closing words: “It’s worse than you think, and the solution is closer at hand and easier than you might have feared.” Those words could almost have come from “Star Trek” Engineer Montgomery Scott - aka "Scotty"🤔
Hair standing, back of neck, found Bill Plotkin's work in the Summer, as he quotes on David White, another resonator. Great podcast Nate. Keep breathing in change, saludos, Phoeagdor.
The fastest most direct way is the way of enthogens. I have so much gratitude for this dialog. A great death is approaching, now is the time for contemplation and action.
Thought provoking, although I did disagree with some of his characterizations of the world in which we live. That said, I certainly share his deep regard for Joanna Macy. And I liked some of his definitions of what it means to be an adult. Plotkin's discussion of developmental stages reminded me of a scene from the recent TV series Fargo when one of the "dark" characters took the "constitutional" Sheriff (played well by Jon Hamm) to task, noting that "freedom without responsibility is only allowed for babies" (or words to that effect). In my opinion, much of our politics and culture are still in a very infantile stage. To me "adulthood" would embody (among other things) the realization and practice that freedom is inseparable from responsibility (for one's actions, etc.) and liberty is inseparable from accountability. Liberty University is not far from where I live and passing the sign for it I always wish someone would found "Accountability University." I just bought a roll of first class stamps, and the word FREEDOM is on the stamp in large letters. We need a stamp with RESPONSIBILITY on it. Unfortunately our politics and culture thrive on the myth that we can survive for long without committing to these adult-like principles.
Brilliant conversation Nate.. And I loved the point about "knowing Vs.simply knowing about." I do beleive we intuitively get that “knowing” in our bones, as a matter of experience, as a visceral and deep feeling, is very different than simply “knowing” something as intellectual facts and information. And yes indeed, certain poems have the capacity to actually give us this kind of “knowing” (not simply knowing about) experience. Made my day...
Nate, I'm old enough to have experienced the edges of the Human Potential Movement of the late 60's. Over the course of time I have seen or explored many spiritual, psychological, and ecological, growth movements. I had to stop this video when the speaker presented the maps and models used in his approach. I just did not want to try to embrace yet another approach to something that has been already described by so many others and for which I think we all have some intrinsic understanding. Thanks for your work. This one was not for me.
Just as we are applauding Nate and looking forward to his continued " maturation"...we are applauding Bill Plotkin and looking forward to his continued "maturation".
Basically, the meaning of life is to gain Self-Actualization through the challenges and pleasures we've experienced throughout our life along the path either by the decisions we made using our free will along our journey, or those challenges that we chose for our soul's growth prior to our incarnation, doing no harm along the way - the Maid. We then become worthy to be the teacher/guide, assisting those following along their paths - the Mother .... until we may eventually become the sage -the Crone - to whom the community can come to for the wisdom to assist them on their final stage of self-actualization.
Hi Nate. I came across this critique of TGS on the Collapse 2050 message board. I'd be interested in your response: "Humans suck. I can't really stomach Nate Hagens' delusional optimism. It's a weird thing that, despite the mountains of empirical evidence showing that humans have been on one very long and continuous trajectory of ravenous growth and expansion, somehow people still hold out hope that we're suddenly going to become a different animal than we are. I've often thought that the only conceivable way such a thing could happen is by literally altering our brains with technology (a horrifying thought in itself). Hopium dies hard, I guess. For me the "solution" is to try and enjoy every second of relative peace while it lasts." Is this person right to suggest that the future will reveal the very worst human instincts? Is civilisation keeping our base instincts in check and will its disintegration release them? Personally, I'm unsure. The world is a diverse place and whilst, from the vantage point of the US, it may be difficult to concieve of a violence-free transition, there are societies on Earth that I have visited (or lived in) where I view this as not just possible, but likely. Scandinavia, New Zealand, Iceland, for example. Even here in rural France a sense of communal solidarity prevails in spite of our acute political divisions. There are even parts of the US that, I suspect, will fare better than others. It's tempting to take the worst examples of fraught division in the US and assume that it tells us something about the human condition. For me, it tells us something about the US, but not necessarily humanity as a whole.
patrick 1) iThe difference between me and a 'doomer' is we have the same facts and recognize the possibility for 'doom' (hard collapse, madmax etc). The difference is that is a chunk (a decent size one) in my distribution while it is a straight line (certainty) in theirs. am human therefore i am somewhat delusional, and i am hardly optimistic. I'd bet I am considerably less delusional than whoever wrote that on a Collapse chatboard. The future is a probability distribution. 2) whoever wrote that did not say the future will bring out the worse in human instincts - you added that. I expect it will bring out both the worst and the best - as it always has in the past - the difference is we have 8 billion now and social media - so we will see many more examples of both 3) "Personally, I'm unsure. " That is the correct place to be imo, even though its uncomfortable. Certainty (of doom, or fantasy/abundance), obviates the need for any effort or change. 4) ". It's tempting to take the worst examples of fraught division in the US and assume that it tells us something about the human condition. For me, it tells us something about the US, but not necessarily humanity as a whole." Just so - though with interconnected nature of world I expect the US will 'export' whatever happens here elsewhere. 5) there is an emerging conversation and awareness. I am quite certain our current living standards, expectations and institutions won't last the decade - but there are myriad responses we can't yet forsee - I think Europe will deindustrialize first - but that doesn't mean back to the dark ages. Indeed the artisanal. community spirit in places like eg Marseille are the mitochondria for some new social arrangement. Im unsure too! be well nate
@@thegreatsimplification "whoever wrote that did not say the future will bring out the worse in human instincts - you added that." OK, not explicit perhaps, but nevertheless, heavily implied: ("people still hold out hope that we're suddenly going to become a different animal than we are") Thanks for your response.
He sounds like a good salesman, If he teach for free (with his colleagues, or business partners?) out of his good adult heart, I would have respect for him, there is no truth to be owned , and no one is in charge to take ownership for any truth about these matters. Do enjoy most of your podcasts Nate:)
@@ricos1497 No, of course not, there were also far too many generalizations that were not proven. I just say what I think, and not spelling out all I took from this, it is not that I feel superior, everyone is free to have their own opinion:)
I always find every episode of The Great Simplification very informative. This episode is no different. One concern I have in your exploration into the spiritual is engaging with guests who utilize their mind-centered constructs to explain spiritual truth. To explain my concern, consider the following analogy: Walking across a room - If you were to explain what the experience of walking across a room feels like to someone who has never had the experience, would an engineer's description of the functions involved be the optimal method? Dr. Plotkin left academia after obtaining his PhD to seek spiritual truth. Yet he has mastered a very academic framework to describe his experience, which may be helpful for translation purposes, but commingles non-spiritual considerations. In my view, the net effect of this presentation is to dilute the clarity and diminish the accessibility to the spiritual journey for the listeners.
Poetry, art, music, nature etc. can be a catalyst for reaching or consolidate a state of consciousness like a ritual designed to evoke a certain mindspace. We can not intellectually force ourself to change directly, we can not plan a better society on the drawing board and then be satisfied with self-castigation. If we find ways to overcome our addiction to constantly consume we have a better basis to evolve in a sustaible direction
My second attempt watching this. Just too privileged a perspective. My working class background sees too much trauma in people. The "soul" work overcoming misery is not an individual path. Just as you need a village to raise a child, you also need one to raise an elder. The upper, college educated might have the social structure, but very few of the working class can escape generations of PTSD, sex abuse, propaganda, economic "slavery", addiction. I know I've spent my life trying. Perhaps the biggest block is a nature deficiency. We love gardening and our pets, we just can't take a walk in the woods. I can't hardly afford the gate fee of our National Parks.
@@johnm1030 Do I get a fortune cookie with that? My objection is about language and tribe. It is the same as walking into a Christian church and not understanding some very strange language. To me this is word salad to 90 % of Americans. Sure sounds pretty, but I get an honest spiritual experience in a forest or next to a stream. I lose ego. Maybe when the language disappears. Till then I've known too many emotionally sick new agers to have faith in any spiritual monotone.
@@johnm1030 Not in my experience. It took a community. Why do folks go on these workshops? Why church? Yes we look within and spiritual leaders have been going to the wilds since before we civilization. Answers can't just be found with in, we don't exist in a vacuum. Most have to look within because they never have been shown how. How do you just "look with in"? How does Joe the plumber just "look within"? He gets off work and the wife is telling him about the bounced check. The kids are fighting over the TV. His boss just chewed him out for not catching a mistake his helper made. A beer looks awful good. What does he do, watch a youtube video on enlightenment? Buy a set of sacred path cards? Rub some sage on a crystal? He might get really lucky and get busted for have a bit of pot and has to get some court ordered counseling.
@@timeenoughforart Yeah well what I meant to say is that (if I understand it correctly) the activity described in this video isn't something one would do in a public setting. But in a place like Nevada, pretty much anything goes (cue-in : Burning Man). Plus the hustle & bustle of that city coupled with the shady (yet very brightly lit) industry practices might make it easier.
So this is where they are now, the New Agers. I skipped over this after taking LSD and picking up the Tao te Ching and the I Ching in 1966. Practiced Yoga and everything else spiritual. There is a lot in here that goes back even further than Wendell Berry. The Two Truths for as Mahayana, are conventional and ultimate (spiritual) That kinda got covered, I think, although a little white washed-- sorry, that's how it is today, having to speak down to the audience. I appreciate your attempt to speak to a wider audience. Since I was raised Presbyterian (Scottish dad) by Quaker mom I was a little ahead of the Western trap. In 1991 my teacher (buddhist) appeared in book form and when I moved to the middle of nowhere Washington from the Bay Area, she purchased land and started an abbey not far from me. It took about a decade of serious study to understand the buddhist world view, which sees death as just another bardo in the experience of life in the desire realm (which has about 6 realms including a god realm and a hell realm, as well as human.) It's only about as confusing to dualistic thinking as the Mayan calendar (which I had already studied LOL) Dropping Western thinking is soooooooo hard. Was it Albert Einstein?? who said the greatest event of the 20th c. was East meets West in philosophy. Kenesthetic memories are so important. I've studied archaeology forever (maybe longer, but I haven't yet recalled those lives) and the sacred places where people would just bring offerings and sit, smoke, sacrifice their best stuff -- or others -- in denial of worldly attachment, honor the elders and so forth. Then I think of how important the Quaker Meeting houses were. A sense of place through time by which to assess one's journey. (viva la underground railroad) to remember that feeling beyond words. I go to the same lake each year as a family tradition and i rejoice that the lake has survived. If we get through this election with favorable results we can buy some more time for others to understand the benefit of all beings as opposed to self. Why do we cry @ beauty: All pervasive suffering. It's only the moment that lasts. Flowers as an offering represent impermanence.. . . Yes, auras are unique, made of all things you've done over countless years and lifetimes. . . 3,000 yr. is one eon. So yes, yes, yes, flesh it out with all the old teachings before Rome. Imagine no Empire. No European Trade Empires and Colonies. . . or No Silk road. It's all based on accumulation of wealth giving over to the defect of greed. Love, your buddhist auntie.
This seems (to me) the right place to say that I really adored the poem by Nate Hagens about Big Foot, which he read out on Frankly (episode 74). I am pretty "stiff upper lip" and try to stay logical and rational - but I do like Poetry, Music, etc. to express emotions - and this poem is a lot better then most modern poetry in doing that. Why is this the right place to praise Nate's poem (which he seems a bit ashamed of) ? - because I am trying to point out (below) that it might be easier to create a holistic A.I. than it would be to create a holistic human race. Holistic humans are gloomy, woeful and lonely like BigFoot. Occasionally they get really mad, out of despair - but most of the time they are just resigned to be branded "weird" outcasts. When are the vast majority of humans going to understand how close we are to Nature, whether we like it or not? Never, at this rate. So why not try to make A.I. more sentient than most humans are? It wouldn't be hard - you wouldn't have to get up to Nate's level, or Bill Rees's level, or Paul Ehrlich's level. Just one tenth of the way to that level would be wonderful. I was very struck by a guest of Nate's last May - a Brit called Ed Conway, who writes about Raw Materials aka Commodities. He is so open about being on a trajectory or learning curve. It was a kind of "stream of consciousness" event which resonates with those who have not been born knowing about the Biophysical Limits of Nature, but have slowly come to understand how they underpin everything. Surely a lot of people could get to Ed Conway's level? It still wouldn't be enough to change the course of human societies much - but it would mitigate a lot of "BigFoot" despair. How did Ed Conway get "red pilled" about Nature? Only he can explain it. Everyone who has gotten red-pilled would have a different tale to tell, I guess. A fascinating tale.
I don’t know why, but I find this concept deeply frustrating. I’ve seen so many models, displays, that are similar to this idea. I do agree the average person is stunted in western society. I’m tired of models that attempt to explain the problem but offer little to no solutions for helping others grow, give people who desire it a roadmap. You could argue the descriptions of the stages are a roadmap, but the map is not the territory. I also dislike the whole “become the uniqueness you are” “discover the true soul self you’re meant to express” because so many in our society will view that through an egoic personality lens. I doubt even if the speaker knows that the soul is attribute-less because the language seems to imply a uniqueness that is expressed through the ego, not the soul. “Unique ecological communication” whut “a creatures unique ecological niche” I don’t disagree I suppose, I just find it frustrating that there is meaning superimposed as a given in this model.
This was profoundly engaging. Yes, there is more to human psychology than what is commonly recognized. It brought to mind the work of Piaget and Vygotsky and contemporary Nordic ways of assuring that children get close to nature. A rewarding follow up is savoring The Dream of the Earth by Thomas Berry. I'm wondering if the three instincts of the Enneagram might be expanded to include a 4th: self-prez, sexual, social and eco or bio -- as if expanding in concentric circles -- the last a focus on sensing and fitting into the whole of life with the individual's focus on that role with its complexity of fundamentally healthy relationships and interactions -- an instinct that indigenous peoples had that moderns almost universally lack. First steps to developing this instinct might be (1) hand tending organic food-producing forest gardens where today's lawns and hedges are, creating beauty, food and habitat for people and other animals who come to know and love one another in these gardens close by and (2) getting out of car, subway and bus capsules onto bikes, boards and skates to travel in camaraderie through biologically newly rich diverse urban and suburban landscapes.
Perhaps we can simplify things by recognizing that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts because the parts are different. This is why the task for each of us is to find the way, with our niche and DNA and conditioning, to help make the whole greater. Using the word soul makes it more complicated.
Thomas Berry taught that ourxstance can and should be: How can I help you? To be human is to live for the mutual beneficiation of our fellows ... non-human creat-ures and human
Thank you Nate for stretching yourself beyond the physical into the metaphysical: we live on both levels. [That wasn't so hard was it?] And thank you Bill for your life's work showing us the potential for [ie. "path toward"] growth [not GDP] if/when we are "born again" [ie. regenerated] to become children of the REAL organic world who are then able to "parent" others on their journey [because we have become "adults" ... even "elders" ... in their NOMINAL pragmatic world] ... in an intergenerational process that AN Whitehead could have embraced ... uniting past and future in the present moment ... which he defined as "reverence". I will study Bill's work on unarrested growth, but would offer one thought from my own experience. Perhaps, there is a "cycle" within the growth "path" ... a motive force forward ... like the wheel of a cycle which must complete "many" revolutions if/as the "singular" journey progresses ... alternating between physical and metaphysical ... left-right-left-right [ala Iain McGilchrist] ... then repeat ... like walking. And, perhaps, it is the SAME CYCLE in play regardless of where you are along the PATH. Some of us have pictured this cycle as 3E's ... ECOnomy [oikos-nomos], ECOlogy [oikos-logos] and Education [reconciling nomos to logos in the oikos] ... 3esfsc.blogspot.com/ ... just a thought. It will take us all ... over generations ... to do justice to the great conversation in which we are partakers. Let's keep encouraging and listening to one another along the way! Thanks for encouraging me today.
Thank you, Nate and Bill Plotkin this explain so much why those trying to get people to understand what seems easy seems so hard. Still I wonder where self regulated learners are as this seems it should be in those stages, wandering in the cocoon?
I've been 'learning' a lot lately. (what a ride). But I haven't taken, nor have I committed to taking any of that kind of action at all. It is completely alien to me, as well as to most of the people I know & pass by in the street. Let me assure you that nothing about this 'seems easy', especially having been conditioned under a 'ten commandments'-type education from birth.
@@rigelb9025 That was true for me before I learned permaforesting uses guild's, small mini gardens that are complete when finish, tiny "forests" that can be done one at a time. I have three in the works. We also replaced all bulbs, most can do this, and when you buy a new stove or refrigerator buying energy star makes sense. And until our permaforest is finished we'll buy a part share in organic farm. None of this happened over night, it started with research, sitting on it, expanding it, learning more, then making a change, small one, affordable one, one at a time. More research, sitting on it (winter great for this) and then another change. Remember how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
@@CarolFoegen Ok but how do you square that with, say, the ten commandments, which we've been fed since birth as 'the law'. Do you just get to switch that on and off, until you can't? Like, what's the deal, seriously.
I very much enjoyed the poem headlining the interview with Bill Plotkin. I closed my eyes, so as to hang on each verse. I so much enjoyed the slow reading, allowing the depth of prose to sink into deeper thought. Still, one statement Bill chose to emphasize before delving into the poem troubled me, and broke my assimilation of the poems deep text. Specifically, Bill stated, "We don't interpret the poem, but we expand it." I suggested you cannot do one without the other. How can you possibly "expand" something without interpreting it first? Rather than read the poem all the way through to allow us to discover meaning, Bill stopped at given points to inform us what the words conveyed. How is this not interpretation that guides the gist? I found those breaks distractive, removing me from the train of thought each time. Alternatively, reading a poem through in it's entirety, to allow the listener to find meaning, seems fairer to each recipient participating in the experience. Of course, I was interested to hear Bill's evaluation (interpretation), but preferably after experiencing the entire poem first. I do much appreciate you both for making us aware of this work, and for the balance of the interview. Cheers, Don R.
38 minutes into this interview, I have to stop. To think, to reflect, on the words and concepts you are laying out. I have always felt alone in thinking these similar things.
This was a really interesting conversation. However there are some red flags around this Animas organization I have seen reported, and would caution others to be careful about diving headfirst into any of their programs.
Figuratively, life shares many similarities with a water powered grist corn mill. The millstones themselves are patterned with harps of land and furrows, with eyes and skirts, grooves and feathering, separating the master furrow from the journeyman furrow, apprentice furrow and fly furrow.
There is agreement amongst evolution biologists, that human evolution has speeded up as the pace of environmental change accelerates. But it is still pretty slow, - and all the evidence relates to our physical lifestyle and environment, not to Education and Culture. Some groups of humans have a genetic mutation that helps them live comfortably at very high altitudes - groups in the Andes, Ethiopia, and Tibet, for example. The mutation in Tibet might have occurred 3000 years ago - but no-one seems to know how long it took to develop. Another example is a mutation that gives you a larger spleen - this has been observed in groups that make their living from deep-sea diving (without equipment). Will "tecchies" develop a mutation that relates to their work? Probably - but after some decades or even centuries, it would seem. Another mutation related to our physical life is a smaller jaw - we just do not need such a large jaw any longer due to changes in diet. So there is an "epidemic" of tooth extraction in overcrowded jaws, because our teeth have not caught up with our jaw-size change, yet. Another example is the effect of safe C-sections on the ability of babies to evolve a larger head size. Larger head sizes are clearly being favoured by Natural Selection since the C-section become more common, while selective pressures against smaller hip sizes in mothers have diminished. If this continues there could be a vicious circle or positive feedback loop, whereby as a result of increasing fetopelvic disproportion, C-sections would become more and more common, though not to the extent that natural childbirth dies out. Apart from things like C-sections and deep sea diving, we really do not control Evolution at the moment, despite our new ability to tinker with human genes. Because even tinkering with human genes takes a long time to show widespread results. So the idea that Education can bring about any measurable change in Human Nature in the short term seems fanciful - and I would argue it is also fanciful in the long term. We know the best way for humans to be and to live - it is in all the ancient sacred texts and myths, from the dawn of "civilization" onwards. A few of us will follow such paths - most of us won't. And the few of us that do, might well not have many children, or even any. Yet the paths remain, for anyone who happens to be born with an instinct to follow them. As for the other 90 per cent of humanity - they won't even look at the advice, much less follow it. Unless some geneticist finds a genetic mutation that will make the human brain do it automatically across all of humanity. It might be better to tailor A.I. into holistic thinking - at least there is some chance of success, albeit slender. A.I. is something that humans can try to control - although the fear is that it will eventually go its own way. Would that be so awful? It can hardly make more mistakes than we have done, over millennia. The fear should be A) will A.I. blot out maverick geniuses like Mozart, Newton, Yuval Hariri, Nate Hagens, etc. and B) will it make the great mass of non-genius humans more grabby and not more holistic? If on the other hand it makes us non-geniuses less grabby, I am happy with that. I cannot even control my own grabbiness, let alone anyone else's, and mine is relatively moderate for whatever reason (genetics I suspect). If A.I. favours less grabbing, I think the geniuses will be safe - they all seem to have a tendency towards bankruptcy and general untidiness. Even George Boole, whose Boolean Logic enabled I.T. and who might be presumed to have had an orderly life. No such thing, he led a fascinating life but not one of material success and spent any spare time he had ministering to the poor in County Cork, Ireland (and when he could in his home town of Lincoln). He was so neglectful of himself that he walked three miles in the pouring rain to give a lecture, where he kept his soaked clothing on, developed pneumonia, and died shortly afterwards. I think some of today's Tech billionaires come into that category - they have become wealthy almost despite themselves, and personal wealth is not their primary interest - they use it to do other things.
Human evolution is ongoing, but very slow. There is some dispute about whether it can be influenced by culture, i.e. can culture alter DNA? In any case, it is very slow - and also not controllable by humans, however much we would like it to be controllable or at least guidable. It may be influenced by humans and their lifestyles - but the evidence for this applies to your physical lifestyle, not "What Did You Learn In School Today?" to quote Bob Dylan. "What did you DO in school today?" might be a better question in relation to Evolutionary Biology. A sedentary lifestyle indoors is eventually going to have an effect - but after how many thousands of years? Or is obesity already being written into our genome? There is evidence for a considerable amount of polygenic obesity - this is heritable, not in a Mendelian way (monogenic), but due to a whole raft of environmental factors which alter DNA. Can the physical environment also affect our THINKING faster than education ever could (if it even can). Maybe - but if so, how quickly? Certainly the human brain is a physical construct. It could evolve to favour a more holistic approach - but it could also evolve to favour a less holistic approach. It depends which one ensures survival better. It could well be, that a more holistic approach is more conducive to survival NOW than it has been in the past million years or so. In that case, we could see some evolution in that direction - but I doubt that education by holistic humans would have a measurable effect. It could well have a measurable physical effect on the brain - but would this be inheritable? Would it alter DNA, in other words? Instead, why not try and pass on your ability to use your right hemisphere through your offspring - and also, maybe try to marry someone with a similar outlook wired into them, which they too will have inherited. Sadly, people with high-functioning right hemispheres have a tendency to marry someone with a high-functioning left hemisphere, for practical reasons of being hitched to someone who is good at grabbing stuff as opposed to contemplating stuff. This does not seem to be gender-related at all, and you will see soulful "realistic" men married to intensely practical "optimistic" women just as often as you see the converse (the reality might be masked by social customs though). And I suspect many "holistic" people are disinclined to marry at all, and always have been. To evolve in the holistic direction, I would suggest that vast numbers of holistic or soulful humans need to marry someone holistic early on in life, instead of discovering aged 70 or something that they wish they had married someone soulful instead of someone practical. There is no sign of this happening in my limited observation. Not on a grand scale, anyway. And what about if grabby humans start marrying other grabby humans instead of just clicking for three days or something and then clashing irrevocably in a bonfire of grabby meets grabby? In my somewhat jaundiced experience, grabby humans tend to marry holistic humans and then have X no. of grabby friends and lovers on the side. If they were to actually marry and have children with another grabber on a planetary scale, Humanity could become even more grabby than we already are, if that is possible. [continued in a second comment]
Love the idea of a poem start, and love the poem, but was too interrupted with commentary. Poetry's strength is to speak to the unspoken, to the poetic side of mind. The commentary instead keeps bringing in the the thinking brain.
I feel somewhat obligated to share my view that this is a magical interpretation of reality rather than something really grounded. Many of these claims don't map onto the complexity of reality. For a developmental model or framework, I'd be looking at something like what's in the works of Hanzi Frienacht. In terms of a simplified story to live into, I think one would be better off going to one of the mainstream religious churches
@thegreatsimplification would love to see Hanzi on here! I think the "reality" that I'm pointing to is a sense of it that is philosophically coherent and ideally scientifically informed. Some of these claims about how "everyone could/ would go through these stages" or "there is a specific telos nature has in mind" just does not compile with what we understand about people or nature. I think we do need an intersubjective account of what is real, but it is worth being picky about what fits in there as a middle or neutral ground. I agree that we need this slow down and woven community type of solution as you talk about. I've been trying to figure out how to get people to gather in a non-magical story, and people are essentially not interested haha As for the established churches - it's definitely a mixed bag out there, but I think there's something to the wisdom in those communities. Maybe they don't have the same focus on ecological issues that more "woo" communities have, but they ground people well. I'd also like to see the types that are in more ecologically minded ground contributing to their local churches. Getting everyone together so we can have a forum that reflects many perspectives and holds them all in generative tension could be really good for enabling people to make better sense of reality together, and then act from a place of better understanding rather than tribal camps.
@anthonytroia1 haha yeah, I'd rather a better alternative, but if one needs to join a community then something with a longer history is probably preferable
I don't know, I think he kind of nailed it with the whole stages of life bit. And how everyone gets stuck at stage three. I think that comports well enough with our decadent, brokent society. Everybody gets old enough to need to get a job and support themselves. But most people, or a lot of people don't really survive being a teenager, or that's when the whole developmental model shuts down. Which wouldn't be an indictment of kids or teenagers of course, as bad seeds or something. But rather of the adults meant to rear them, and simply the adult life a teenager is staring down the prospect of having to enter himself very shortly. I don't know what the solution would be either. More money for the schools! Uh huh....
'Rafah' There was a place they called Rafah Where are the people of Rafah? They had pushed them into Rafah People were torn up in Rafah Onlookers were torn up over Rafah The bombs threatened Rafah As the Sun set over Rafah Their eyes were shattered in Rafah Limbs were tangling in Rafah Half their bodies were taken in Rafah Half the bodies were going to Rafah The Doctors have nothing in Rafah Our only hope was in Rafah All that was left was Rafah In the end all we had was Rafah They were thin in Rafah Not even implements in Rafah Let that sink in about Rafah The war crimes are textbook, Rafah This is our textbook genocide, Rafah The Viciousness of Rafah The sewerage is epidemic in Rafah They killed 400 again in Rafah The killed the chief in Rafah Disease will surely get you in Rafah One leg, both eyes amputated in Rafah Who will care for Rafah? Drones, like the hellfire of Rafah From Khan Yunis to Rafah Egypt waits for Rafah I always imagine myself blown up in Rafah They left the hospital in Rafah They left the hospital in Rafah He said leave the hospital in Rafah Can't they leave at least a hospital in Rafah? 80 bodies laying outside, Rafah Asking people again to leave Rafah We journeyed all the way to Rafah The sun also rose again in Rafah There was once a place called Gaza now Rafah They are leaving Rafah They are living in Rafah They are leaving Rafah They are going to Rafah We are all going to Rafah When the last question is asked, Rafah The answer was in Rafah The future was also in Rafah We all remembered Rafah No one ever forgot, Rafah Until we started to try forget Rafah The children are hungry in Rafah Naledi's family were threatened in Rafah A million Gazans are in Rafah The famine has reached Rafah Drones hover over Rafah It's unconfirmed of what's happening in Rafah It's inconceivable what's happening in Rafah There was a fertile land of Rafah They weapon they used was Rafah The terror of Rafah They were terrified of Rafah He was terrified of walking in Rafah We will all die in Rafah Who are we, if not in Rafah? They wrote their names on their bodies, Rafah We served the last supper in Rafah In the begining of the end, Rafah No shoulder to cry on, Rafah Life is destroyed in Gaza, Rafah Let's retake our lives in Rafah Return us to Rafah Keep us safe in Rafah Stop seriously injuring Rafah It also killed his wife and child in Rafah He was my friend in Rafah She tried to fetch water in Rafah The killing is thorough in Rafah Anytime we can die, Rafah When we remember the war, Rafah More than anything Rafah They were guiltless in Rafah All of them trapped in Rafah We are all alive still and in Rafah Our sun set again in Rafah It was far away, in Rafah It was a faraway place, Rafah It was a long walk to Rafah We took a long walk through Rafah They had drank the blood of the press of Rafah Sacrificed their place in heaven for Rafah She made us crazy, screaming "Rafah" They spoke in hushed voices, "Rafah" Did you also hear of Rafah? Their radio was broken in Rafah When we thought back on Rafah And they fought on in Rafah And they fought on about Rafah The children asked us about Rafah We flew a flag for Rafah There was a place called Rafah The last place was called Rafah When we can't remember Rafah So was it written in Rafah The new world was born in Rafah The new resistance came from Rafah The birds no longer sang in Rafah There were no birds in Rafah We had a hand in Rafah He had a hand in Rafah Whose hand was that in Rafah? Which hand was lost in Rafah? The hands and feet of Rafah All they had was blood soaked clothes, Rafah All they had were their clothes in Rafah They only had blood soaked clothes in Rafah Everyone lost in Rafah Everyone was lost in Rafah Was everyone lost in Rafah? Did they loose in Rafah? When they let loose in Rafah How much did they loose in Rafah? Will they also loose in Rafah? What was set loose in Rafah? Will they kill a whole million in Rafah? They will make us all go to Rafah Are they all together in Rafah? Are they altogether in Rafar? Did they get to Rafah? Maybe they will find us in Rafah When we are sad, we can think of Rafah If we can be happy in Rafah If we can be happy, only in Rafah They won't fit in, in Rafah They won't fit in Rafah They won't fit in - Rafah There is no more Rafah There is only Rafah There is only, Rafah All that was left was Rafah The whole earth was Rafah We cried for Rafah We were cried for in Rafah We were carried and left for dead in Rafah The Earth was dead in Rafah The earth was deadening in Rafah We cried for our earth in Rafah In the end there was only Planet Rafah There wasn't even plants left in Rafah Earth became dirt in Rafah Our earth was more dirty after Rafah On everyone's hearts hung heavily, Rafah She whispered, "Rafah" It was far away in Rafah She called "Rafah, Rafah Rafah" Her lost child was 'Rafah' They killed her child in Rafah No one dared set foot on Rafah But there was nowhere left but Rafah Peace was far away from Rafah They can no longer worship in Rafah Chloe M
We need more efficient solar panels that do not have to be buried. Just another form of creating pollution we need ones that can be reused we need to reuse what we already have on the earth and find a better way to run the cars and everything else we already have
There ARE very fundamental truths spoken here but when Bill Plotkin starts talking about "experiential inversions", "training programs", "5-day immersions ", "guides" etc. I start thinking CULT. - someone who is cynically capitalizing on our current societal zeitgeist for other than humanistically benign motives. Pardon my cynicism, but I found the hairs on the back of my neck standing erect.
I can see why you might think that given the history of similar movements. But then I ask, how could this type of knowledge, if actually useful, be transmitted without workshops and guides and training? I didn't feel he was putting any hard sell on either, I thought he was just referencing them where it was appropriate. I agree some caution is important but we have to be careful also not to throw out genuinely helpful work because it superficially resembles something else.
Funny how Americans don't think of the status quo as a being a cult. America is one giant cult with two seemingly opposing sects - cons and libs - who both believe in american exceptionalism, delusions of granduer and junk values.
I just couldn't listen to this. Uhhh.!!! He takes foreverrrrrrr to make a point, and even then, he doesn't make it. So slow. So scattered, his thoughts. Sorry Nate, I understand why this is important, and he seems brilliant. Maybe just a poor communicator. I will get the book from my library and read it.
Agree. Love Nate, but this plodding blather was ruining my walk, and I had to terminate it. Minutes later, I saw my neighbour's lawn was festooned with a multitude of gorgeous amanita muscaria mushrooms, so my walk ended on a high point.
@@Starclimber Same! I went for a walk, October chill and blue skies, Tulip trees, oaks, maple leaves turning orange and red. My connection with nature keeps growing.
@@dustibecker4233 my hearing is bad I was exposed to a lot of noise in my youth, so I listen to the episode again he referred to the poet as a Anglo American that’s sounds like a race to me so relisten to confirm
I did a week long immersive with Bill Plotkin in Australia and along with doing a workshop with Joanna Macy at her home in California and a deep ecology workshop with John Seed, it led to a profound shift in consciousness and got me into ecopsychology as my life's work. Bill Plotkin's work cuts to the very essence of our true ecological Selves. His ideas around the descent to soul, rather than the spiriitual bypassing that most people practice is essential in this trauma inducing society. These ideas are the most authentic ways toward real human development.
Are there others teaching his work since he is hard to get a hold of?
@@GigiAzmy There are other people that teach his work that have been trained through Animas Valley Institute if you contact them in Colorado. There are organizations such as Nature's Apprentice here in Australia and other people you could find working in ecopsychology and nature connection programs. Most programs don't go to the depths and breadths of Bill's work including my own but not everyone is ready for Soul Initiation until they've connected to Nature and their own human nature in less intense and all consuming ways. Unfortunately, most people are still trapped in the Matrix and, like Plato's Cave analogy, don't even know what they're missing. We have been thoroughly conditioned to be completely divided against our true Selves which we then project onto our world and separate ourselves from other people and especially the more than human world.
@@GigiAzmy Look up Animas Institute. I think they also can recommend other similar organisations. He also has books available with exercises etc
Not often does someone punch one in the guts so hard that it knocks you over.... this gentleman has moved something in me so deeply that I am sitting here stunned... I just came out of a session a few hours before listening to this on how to have an emotionally authentic conversation with my partner... and to hear this man talk in a way that is so fully embodying this emotional authenticity has just rocked me... in a really good way.
thank you Nate for this conversation....
Thank you both so much. I loved the positive closing thoughts. Nature based education and our world could be healed faster than we think. Let's all be part of this healing process and remember who we really are and love nature and ourselves.
You're on the right track, Nate...thank you both so very much 🌿🦋♥
Thank you so much Nate and Bill for finally pointing the conversation in that direction. Very few people know and understand that: "Learning is not an action of logical preparation for dialectical and ideological ends; nor is it a preparation for the appreciation of art, creativity, history and cultures. Learning is a finely timed state of receptivity where the child's attention is pre-directed by an intrinsic agenda, a need to give specific meaning to archetypal forms.
Neoteny is the biological commitment to this learning program, i.e. the construction of identity and meaning through oscillation between the state of separation and relationship, otherness and kinship. This process occupies around 30% of the entire human lifespan. It is a pulse, a spiral, which introduces the human spirit to ever-wider ensembles, from the restricted space of the womb, to the mother and the body, to the earth, to the cosmos.
Each of these stages resolves a task necessary to the growth of consciousness and intuition in infancy, childhood and adolescence. Their aim is not to perpetuate the prenatal state of subjective fusion but, through a progressive scale of unions and deviations, to identify a self leading to an increasingly mature sense of connectedness, not separation. " - Paul Shepard
Irony of ironies, it would seem.
Yeow! These last two podcasts have really exploded open my world. I've been waiting for something, the right thing that fit, for well over a decade. Now suddenly I have not one, but two big projects in front of me, a pile of books to read, and looks like a book to write, as well. After such a long dry spell, I am excited... I can't believe it. Gratitude, Nate! Love the journey that's unfolding here. Synchronicity, with your intuition, guests, and their messages... working together with our group think, seems to be leading us all in a marvelous dance... 🙏💚
Face, meet palm. Nate... look at the damage you're doing to these people. Stop this, get back to reality.
Thank you so much. This was another episode that hit me at the exact right time. I’m an old in a Sustainability PhD program, buying myself funded time to read and listen more deeply to figure out exactly what it is that I can do, as the person I was born, to tell stories that will hit the ears of some tiny fraction of society that will resonate with my particular delivery. I’ve been trying to find keywords in the realm of this equation I know/feel (mind and body are not separate + humans and earth are not separate = therefore mental health is an environmental issue). This episode gave me so much. Thank you both.
Plotkin's message is consistent with that of Vanessa Machado de Oliveira Andreotti. We all need this messaging.
This was wonderful, thank you Nate and Bill! Can’t wait for the second conversation 🌎🌳🐝🌸🍑
Dear Nate, this is wonderful and it is the true frontier for change. All spiritual and mystical tradition contains exactly these same principles. It’s great that psychotherapy is attempting at bringing it to the wider world in a different more psychological language. You would greatly appreciate the work abd writings of Claudio Naranjo, a true pioneer and luminary on this topic. He is not with us anymore but his school is spreading in Europe and South America.
Thank you Nate for drawing this together so capably, and for hosting Bill Plotkin.
"It feels like a proper podcast with you would be like sitting in a cabin somewhere, in the same space, and having multiple hours".
To understand what I'm saying, I tell folks they'll need to sit in my garden and drink tea with me for an afternoon. True insight arises *between* the words. Context is *everything*. Through gardening, I can articulate what is most important.
What if they decide to cancel at the last minute?
Awesome guest! I found this discussion profoundly enlightening. Will definitely be diving deeper into the material!
Thanks, Nate. Observing the direction the great simplification has taken since the very early days, fills me with joy and a great hope that we are going to succeed in connecting humanity to the task of creating a more holistic future. Our own development, being the feedback loop to confirm that we are on the right way. Stay sane all.
This man reminded me of Aurélien Barreau, a french physicists that is well known in the french media for popularizing the problems of our civilization against nature.
Both of them they talk about poetry to make a deep transformation in our consciousness...
I guess that everyone had its own moment of epiphany when dealing with the raw truths about our civilization... surely poetry could help a lot...
My method is to keep listening to this kind of podcasts and learn from their wisdom so I do not lose my way 😊
Thanks a lot for making this possible Nate ;)
About the ecological awakening... i grew up in a small town after Franco died, many years ago. I used to read many books, many fairy tales where nature talked to people, animals, plants, trees, i was animist and i grew in a catholic environment, i remember i was very upset when i heard the priest saying that animals had no soul. I was a peaceful kid but i would get into fights to save lizards or any little animal from the torture of other kids. I felt the "jungle stories", by Horacio Quiroga, like if i was witnessing the stories, and now when i read the news about the Amazonas or Borneo forests i feel the pain. I have to admit that i had some years of sleepness, i was like numb to the sufferning of nature, that happened when i lived in other countries, in Belgium, Japan and the USA, i was not too happy then, i felt like i was missing something. When i moved into Turkey, i had like a jump back, i felt like when i was a kid in my village, although the place where i live was not the same, but it had some fields, some nature that made me connect again with nature and fight for her. The situation is not easy for environmentalist tho... but i wanted to say that there can be a reawakening. At least i think that happened to me.
Now we’re getting somewhere. Thank you 🙏
Yes! Thank you Nate for giving Bill and his work, your bigger platform.
Find your own authentic deliver system for your souls own unique gift(s). That’s our “great work”!to quote Thomas Berry. This is a campfire episode that one has to come back to again for warmth and wisdom.
Deeply wonderful. Thank you so much Bill and Nate
Thanks, Nate for all your good work. I enacted a vision fast with Bill in 1998 and then participated in various other Soulcraft experiences with him for the next five years. The impact of those experiences continue to serve me to this day.
Great discussion - thank you both Bill and Nate. The essence I take from this comes from Bill ''It's worse than you think, and the solution is closer at hand and easier than you might have feared'.
Wow! This is a dream guest that I would have never thought possible. WTG Nate! Looking forward to this one.
Thank you, Nate.
Please we need more discussion of the sacred, the divine, the personal and cultural malaise that has washed over us for decades. As Blll states, the core issue that the meta crisis finds itself rooted in is deep deep in our psyche. We all must individually turn inward.
Thank you for all you do.
Q
Nate, I would love so much to hear you speak with Professor John Vervaeke! His cognitive science framing of the metacrisis/polycrisis is brilliant and incredibly insightful
Only two minutes in but: I MASSIVELY appreciate the direction you are taking this channel, Nate! ❤
Here here, me too, absolutely!
Respectfully disagree
@@ChimpJacobman You're a sweetheart 😘
:::hears the sound of balloons (respectfully) deflating:::
Yeah sure, let's jump over the ecological crisis, and go a few hundred years into the future.
Im not sure im fully ready for this episode yet, but i look forward ro the day I am.
Thank you for sharing your transition by interviewing Mr. Plotkin. Great stuff. Please interview more women who embody the divine feminine…another missing piece of the framework; Caroline Casey, Margaret Wheatley, adrienne maree brown, Starhawk, Mary Hayes Grieco, Evangeline Moen, Brene Brown, Lynne Twist, Pema Chodren, Adirundi Roy, Vandana Shiva, Joanna Macy or any of her crew. The list is vast and the time is short. I trust you to follow your guidance and choose accordingly. Absolutely have heart expanding experiences following your podcast and really appreciate the Frankly’s. Hope to speak with you too regarding creating the “afterpath” a version of the Great Turning. Blessed be.
I'd add Spring Cheng to that wonderful list of very wise women.
Bought the book immediately after listening to this wonderful podcast
As Bill was talking about oppression of development, an association that came to mind was Maria Montessori as another person who tried to liberate human development.
This guest is 100x more eloquent and heart-centered than others like Schmachtenberger (and much more humble too).
I wish that Plotkin's offerings can reach a wider world audience. ♾🌎🌍🌏
I don't see any comparison between the two. Everyone has his part to play.
@@johnbanach3875 yah, but who's receiving more airtime and creedence..?
@@systems_logic I don't get what your problem with Schmachtenberger is. Who but the elite of the elite have even a clue about what Plotkin is talking about?
It's like we were watching a different episode. This guy seems like a grifter to me. So interesting how my allies and I can have different experiences, and that's fine. The informant part is that we're allies (and that we protect each other from grift).
@@ChimpJacobman Grifter = "someone who swindles people out of money through fraud." Why would you call him that?
Hopefully Parts 2-3-4-5-6 will be very soon. They are urgently needed.
Thanks for this good medicine, Nate and Bill.
This episode is best listened to multiple times. Quite a change from your normal guests but VERY interesting and moving and thought provoking and feeling creating. It does speak to some small inner place where we can intuitively or innately recognize some "truth" even if "objectively" this sounds hokey and spiritual and new age strange and "unscientific".
This gives a sense of resolution of an internal conflict I’ve carried for most of my life. I’m so grateful. 😊 I’ve followed and found a community here where most others only have a blank stare.
I like that his book shelf is not full.
I LOVE the Great Simplification's combination of pragmatic realism and deep spiritual awareness. Nate Hagen's is a "systems analyst/specialist" who also has a beautiful human heart and a big brain. Compared to most of us (especially our elected "deciders") his awareness of our present moment in human history should be instructive. Machiavellian pragmatism has over-run the human species and the natural world. We are ALL living amidst a song/poem/cosmic mystery that most often gets overlooked amidst our political and economic and mad-made religious mythologies. The Great Simplification gives us a glimpse in to ALL of them. This attempt at wisdom is the most we can hope for.
This comment is so perfectly stated. We need renaissance humans who can balance intellect, will, and spirit holistically. The aborigines of Australia had this story that if we fail to sing our own song the world will continue to deteriorate. Thanks GS for the song contribution.
@@davidgarza1301 I haven't heard their song yet.
WE… are what we’ve been waiting for 🌞🤝🌞🤝🌞
I miss Tweetie Boyd.
Don’t know why Nate but Bill Plotkin reminded me of the late Rutger Hauer (RIP). Rutger Hauer wrote this little speech himself for his character Replicant Roy Batty in “Blade Runner” (1982). Below👇spoken towards the film’s closing scenes (from one of my favourite all time sci-fi films), there’s something quite poetic about it:
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die."
And I’ll remember Bill Plotkin’s closing words:
“It’s worse than you think, and the solution is closer at hand and easier than you might have feared.” Those words could almost have come from “Star Trek” Engineer Montgomery Scott - aka "Scotty"🤔
Hair standing, back of neck, found Bill Plotkin's work in the Summer, as he quotes on David White, another resonator. Great podcast Nate. Keep breathing in change, saludos, Phoeagdor.
I cried when he read the poem.
The fastest most direct way is the way of enthogens.
I have so much gratitude for this dialog. A great death is approaching, now is the time for contemplation and action.
🙏🙏 thank you very much for this interview. Affirming, confirming, re-orienting, reconnecting.. ❤ connecting
Thought provoking, although I did disagree with some of his characterizations of the world in which we live. That said, I certainly share his deep regard for Joanna Macy. And I liked some of his definitions of what it means to be an adult.
Plotkin's discussion of developmental stages reminded me of a scene from the recent TV series Fargo when one of the "dark" characters took the "constitutional" Sheriff (played well by Jon Hamm) to task, noting that "freedom without responsibility is only allowed for babies" (or words to that effect). In my opinion, much of our politics and culture are still in a very infantile stage. To me "adulthood" would embody (among other things) the realization and practice that freedom is inseparable from responsibility (for one's actions, etc.) and liberty is inseparable from accountability. Liberty University is not far from where I live and passing the sign for it I always wish someone would found "Accountability University." I just bought a roll of first class stamps, and the word FREEDOM is on the stamp in large letters. We need a stamp with RESPONSIBILITY on it. Unfortunately our politics and culture thrive on the myth that we can survive for long without committing to these adult-like principles.
The best interviews are the ones you have to stop, Midway through, in order to reflect on the words said.
Brilliant conversation Nate.. And I loved the point about "knowing Vs.simply knowing about." I do beleive we intuitively get that “knowing” in our bones, as a matter of experience, as a visceral and deep feeling, is very different than simply “knowing” something as intellectual facts and information. And yes indeed, certain poems have the capacity to actually give us this kind of “knowing” (not simply knowing about) experience. Made my day...
Nate, I'm old enough to have experienced the edges of the Human Potential Movement of the late 60's. Over the course of time I have seen or explored many spiritual, psychological, and ecological, growth movements. I had to stop this video when the speaker presented the maps and models used in his approach. I just did not want to try to embrace yet another approach to something that has been already described by so many others and for which I think we all have some intrinsic understanding. Thanks for your work. This one was not for me.
Just as we are applauding Nate and looking forward to his continued " maturation"...we are applauding Bill Plotkin and looking forward to his continued "maturation".
Some would say "maturation". Other would call it descent into madness.
we should always open with a poem
Basically, the meaning of life is to gain Self-Actualization through the challenges and pleasures we've experienced throughout our life along the path either by the decisions we made using our free will along our journey, or those challenges that we chose for our soul's growth prior to our incarnation, doing no harm along the way - the Maid. We then become worthy to be the teacher/guide, assisting those following along their paths - the Mother .... until we may eventually become the sage -the Crone - to whom the community can come to for the wisdom to assist them on their final stage of self-actualization.
Smoke up homie, sounds like good stuff
Hi Nate. I came across this critique of TGS on the Collapse 2050 message board. I'd be interested in your response:
"Humans suck. I can't really stomach Nate Hagens' delusional optimism. It's a weird thing that, despite the mountains of empirical evidence showing that humans have been on one very long and continuous trajectory of ravenous growth and expansion, somehow people still hold out hope that we're suddenly going to become a different animal than we are.
I've often thought that the only conceivable way such a thing could happen is by literally altering our brains with technology (a horrifying thought in itself).
Hopium dies hard, I guess. For me the "solution" is to try and enjoy every second of relative peace while it lasts."
Is this person right to suggest that the future will reveal the very worst human instincts? Is civilisation keeping our base instincts in check and will its disintegration release them?
Personally, I'm unsure. The world is a diverse place and whilst, from the vantage point of the US, it may be difficult to concieve of a violence-free transition, there are societies on Earth that I have visited (or lived in) where I view this as not just possible, but likely. Scandinavia, New Zealand, Iceland, for example. Even here in rural France a sense of communal solidarity prevails in spite of our acute political divisions. There are even parts of the US that, I suspect, will fare better than others. It's tempting to take the worst examples of fraught division in the US and assume that it tells us something about the human condition. For me, it tells us something about the US, but not necessarily humanity as a whole.
patrick
1) iThe difference between me and a 'doomer' is we have the same facts and recognize the possibility for 'doom' (hard collapse, madmax etc). The difference is that is a chunk (a decent size one) in my distribution while it is a straight line (certainty) in theirs. am human therefore i am somewhat delusional, and i am hardly optimistic. I'd bet I am considerably less delusional than whoever wrote that on a Collapse chatboard. The future is a probability distribution.
2) whoever wrote that did not say the future will bring out the worse in human instincts - you added that. I expect it will bring out both the worst and the best - as it always has in the past - the difference is we have 8 billion now and social media - so we will see many more examples of both
3) "Personally, I'm unsure. " That is the correct place to be imo, even though its uncomfortable. Certainty (of doom, or fantasy/abundance), obviates the need for any effort or change.
4) ". It's tempting to take the worst examples of fraught division in the US and assume that it tells us something about the human condition. For me, it tells us something about the US, but not necessarily humanity as a whole." Just so - though with interconnected nature of world I expect the US will 'export' whatever happens here elsewhere.
5) there is an emerging conversation and awareness. I am quite certain our current living standards, expectations and institutions won't last the decade - but there are myriad responses we can't yet forsee - I think Europe will deindustrialize first - but that doesn't mean back to the dark ages. Indeed the artisanal. community spirit in places like eg Marseille are the mitochondria for some new social arrangement.
Im unsure too!
be well
nate
@@thegreatsimplification "whoever wrote that did not say the future will bring out the worse in human instincts - you added that." OK, not explicit perhaps, but nevertheless, heavily implied: ("people still hold out hope that we're suddenly going to become a different animal than we are")
Thanks for your response.
@@thegreatsimplification 'Chroniques de Mars' suddenly makes a lot more sense.
He sounds like a good salesman, If he teach for free (with his colleagues, or business partners?) out of his good adult heart, I would have respect for him, there is no truth to be owned , and no one is in charge to take ownership for any truth about these matters.
Do enjoy most of your podcasts Nate:)
Is that all you took from the discussion?
@@ricos1497 No, of course not, there were also far too many generalizations that were not proven. I just say what I think, and not spelling out all I took from this, it is not that I feel superior, everyone is free to have their own opinion:)
Go look in the show notes for support for his claims.
@@robinschaufler444 I looked a his website, the only thing he is not offering is onion soup... I crawled through another wormhole..
Do YOU provide services and work for free???
Highly recommend the writings on existential psychotherapy by Irvin Yalom
Thank you for the content. But, really having hard figuring out what the guest is saying.
I always find every episode of The Great Simplification very informative. This episode is no different. One concern I have in your exploration into the spiritual is engaging with guests who utilize their mind-centered constructs to explain spiritual truth. To explain my concern, consider the following analogy: Walking across a room - If you were to explain what the experience of walking across a room feels like to someone who has never had the experience, would an engineer's description of the functions involved be the optimal method? Dr. Plotkin left academia after obtaining his PhD to seek spiritual truth. Yet he has mastered a very academic framework to describe his experience, which may be helpful for translation purposes, but commingles non-spiritual considerations. In my view, the net effect of this presentation is to dilute the clarity and diminish the accessibility to the spiritual journey for the listeners.
well said- also, another white face of a spirituality kept alive for generations by brown and black people
Poetry, art, music, nature etc. can be a catalyst for reaching or consolidate a state of consciousness like a ritual designed to evoke a certain mindspace. We can not intellectually force ourself to change directly, we can not plan a better society on the drawing board and then be satisfied with self-castigation. If we find ways to overcome our addiction to constantly consume we have a better basis to evolve in a sustaible direction
My second attempt watching this. Just too privileged a perspective. My working class background sees too much trauma in people. The "soul" work overcoming misery is not an individual path. Just as you need a village to raise a child, you also need one to raise an elder. The upper, college educated might have the social structure, but very few of the working class can escape generations of PTSD, sex abuse, propaganda, economic "slavery", addiction. I know I've spent my life trying. Perhaps the biggest block is a nature deficiency. We love gardening and our pets, we just can't take a walk in the woods. I can't hardly afford the gate fee of our National Parks.
@@johnm1030 Do I get a fortune cookie with that? My objection is about language and tribe. It is the same as walking into a Christian church and not understanding some very strange language. To me this is word salad to 90 % of Americans. Sure sounds pretty, but I get an honest spiritual experience in a forest or next to a stream. I lose ego. Maybe when the language disappears. Till then I've known too many emotionally sick new agers to have faith in any spiritual monotone.
@@johnm1030 Not in my experience. It took a community. Why do folks go on these workshops? Why church? Yes we look within and spiritual leaders have been going to the wilds since before we civilization. Answers can't just be found with in, we don't exist in a vacuum.
Most have to look within because they never have been shown how. How do you just "look with in"? How does Joe the plumber just "look within"? He gets off work and the wife is telling him about the bounced check. The kids are fighting over the TV. His boss just chewed him out for not catching a mistake his helper made. A beer looks awful good. What does he do, watch a youtube video on enlightenment? Buy a set of sacred path cards? Rub some sage on a crystal? He might get really lucky and get busted for have a bit of pot and has to get some court ordered counseling.
@@timeenoughforart I think you'd have a better shot at enlightenment down the main strip in Las Vegas.
@@rigelb9025 Is that where they teach "the snotty path to enlightenment"? Very Zen of you.
@@timeenoughforart Yeah well what I meant to say is that (if I understand it correctly) the activity described in this video isn't something one would do in a public setting. But in a place like Nevada, pretty much anything goes (cue-in : Burning Man). Plus the hustle & bustle of that city coupled with the shady (yet very brightly lit) industry practices might make it easier.
So this is where they are now, the New Agers. I skipped over this after taking LSD and picking up the Tao te Ching and the I Ching in 1966. Practiced Yoga and everything else spiritual. There is a lot in here that goes back even further than Wendell Berry. The Two Truths for as Mahayana, are conventional and ultimate (spiritual) That kinda got covered, I think, although a little white washed-- sorry, that's how it is today, having to speak down to the audience. I appreciate your attempt to speak to a wider audience.
Since I was raised Presbyterian (Scottish dad) by Quaker mom I was a little ahead of the Western trap. In 1991 my teacher (buddhist) appeared in book form and when I moved to the middle of nowhere Washington from the Bay Area, she purchased land and started an abbey not far from me. It took about a decade of serious study to understand the buddhist world view, which sees death as just another bardo in the experience of life in the desire realm (which has about 6 realms including a god realm and a hell realm, as well as human.) It's only about as confusing to dualistic thinking as the Mayan calendar (which I had already studied LOL) Dropping Western thinking is soooooooo hard. Was it Albert Einstein?? who said the greatest event of the 20th c. was East meets West in philosophy.
Kenesthetic memories are so important. I've studied archaeology forever (maybe longer, but I haven't yet recalled those lives) and the sacred places where people would just bring offerings and sit, smoke, sacrifice their best stuff -- or others -- in denial of worldly attachment, honor the elders and so forth. Then I think of how important the Quaker Meeting houses were. A sense of place through time by which to assess one's journey. (viva la underground railroad) to remember that feeling beyond words. I go to the same lake each year as a family tradition and i rejoice that the lake has survived. If we get through this election with favorable results we can buy some more time for others to understand the benefit of all beings as opposed to self.
Why do we cry @ beauty: All pervasive suffering. It's only the moment that lasts. Flowers as an offering represent impermanence.. . . Yes, auras are unique, made of all things you've done over countless years and lifetimes. . . 3,000 yr. is one eon. So yes, yes, yes, flesh it out with all the old teachings before Rome. Imagine no Empire. No European Trade Empires and Colonies. . . or No Silk road. It's all based on accumulation of wealth giving over to the defect of greed.
Love, your buddhist auntie.
This seems (to me) the right place to say that I really adored the poem by Nate Hagens about Big Foot, which he read out on Frankly (episode 74). I am pretty "stiff upper lip" and try to stay logical and rational - but I do like Poetry, Music, etc. to express emotions - and this poem is a lot better then most modern poetry in doing that. Why is this the right place to praise Nate's poem (which he seems a bit ashamed of) ? - because I am trying to point out (below) that it might be easier to create a holistic A.I. than it would be to create a holistic human race. Holistic humans are gloomy, woeful and lonely like BigFoot. Occasionally they get really mad, out of despair - but most of the time they are just resigned to be branded "weird" outcasts. When are the vast majority of humans going to understand how close we are to Nature, whether we like it or not? Never, at this rate.
So why not try to make A.I. more sentient than most humans are? It wouldn't be hard - you wouldn't have to get up to Nate's level, or Bill Rees's level, or Paul Ehrlich's level. Just one tenth of the way to that level would be wonderful.
I was very struck by a guest of Nate's last May - a Brit called Ed Conway, who writes about Raw Materials aka Commodities. He is so open about being on a trajectory or learning curve. It was a kind of "stream of consciousness" event which resonates with those who have not been born knowing about the Biophysical Limits of Nature, but have slowly come to understand how they underpin everything. Surely a lot of people could get to Ed Conway's level? It still wouldn't be enough to change the course of human societies much - but it would mitigate a lot of "BigFoot" despair. How did Ed Conway get "red pilled" about Nature? Only he can explain it. Everyone who has gotten red-pilled would have a different tale to tell, I guess. A fascinating tale.
I don’t know why, but I find this concept deeply frustrating. I’ve seen so many models, displays, that are similar to this idea. I do agree the average person is stunted in western society. I’m tired of models that attempt to explain the problem but offer little to no solutions for helping others grow, give people who desire it a roadmap. You could argue the descriptions of the stages are a roadmap, but the map is not the territory.
I also dislike the whole “become the uniqueness you are” “discover the true soul self you’re meant to express” because so many in our society will view that through an egoic personality lens. I doubt even if the speaker knows that the soul is attribute-less because the language seems to imply a uniqueness that is expressed through the ego, not the soul.
“Unique ecological communication” whut “a creatures unique ecological niche”
I don’t disagree I suppose, I just find it frustrating that there is meaning superimposed as a given in this model.
This was profoundly engaging. Yes, there is more to human psychology than what is commonly recognized. It brought to mind the work of Piaget and Vygotsky and contemporary Nordic ways of assuring that children get close to nature. A rewarding follow up is savoring The Dream of the Earth by Thomas Berry. I'm wondering if the three instincts of the Enneagram might be expanded to include a 4th: self-prez, sexual, social and eco or bio -- as if expanding in concentric circles -- the last a focus on sensing and fitting into the whole of life with the individual's focus on that role with its complexity of fundamentally healthy relationships and interactions -- an instinct that indigenous peoples had that moderns almost universally lack. First steps to developing this instinct might be (1) hand tending organic food-producing forest gardens where today's lawns and hedges are, creating beauty, food and habitat for people and other animals who come to know and love one another in these gardens close by and (2) getting out of car, subway and bus capsules onto bikes, boards and skates to travel in camaraderie through biologically newly rich diverse urban and suburban landscapes.
Perhaps we can simplify things by recognizing that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts because the parts are different. This is why the task for each of us is to find the way, with our niche and DNA and conditioning, to help make the whole greater. Using the word soul makes it more complicated.
We just don't have the time. Appreciate his efforts and findings but too late
Thomas Berry taught that ourxstance can and should be: How can I help you?
To be human is to live for the mutual beneficiation of our fellows ... non-human creat-ures and human
I heard Ikigai all along this podcast, or Maslow's transcendence. This quite resonates isn't?
Thanks again for your work and sharing knowledge!
1:14:13 done
Thank you Nate for stretching yourself beyond the physical into the metaphysical: we live on both levels. [That wasn't so hard was it?] And thank you Bill for your life's work showing us the potential for [ie. "path toward"] growth [not GDP] if/when we are "born again" [ie. regenerated] to become children of the REAL organic world who are then able to "parent" others on their journey [because we have become "adults" ... even "elders" ... in their NOMINAL pragmatic world] ... in an intergenerational process that AN Whitehead could have embraced ... uniting past and future in the present moment ... which he defined as "reverence". I will study Bill's work on unarrested growth, but would offer one thought from my own experience. Perhaps, there is a "cycle" within the growth "path" ... a motive force forward ... like the wheel of a cycle which must complete "many" revolutions if/as the "singular" journey progresses ... alternating between physical and metaphysical ... left-right-left-right [ala Iain McGilchrist] ... then repeat ... like walking. And, perhaps, it is the SAME CYCLE in play regardless of where you are along the PATH. Some of us have pictured this cycle as 3E's ... ECOnomy [oikos-nomos], ECOlogy [oikos-logos] and Education [reconciling nomos to logos in the oikos] ... 3esfsc.blogspot.com/ ... just a thought. It will take us all ... over generations ... to do justice to the great conversation in which we are partakers. Let's keep encouraging and listening to one another along the way! Thanks for encouraging me today.
Thank you, Nate and Bill Plotkin this explain so much why those trying to get people to understand what seems easy seems so hard. Still I wonder where self regulated learners are as this seems it should be in those stages, wandering in the cocoon?
I've been 'learning' a lot lately. (what a ride). But I haven't taken, nor have I committed to taking any of that kind of action at all. It is completely alien to me, as well as to most of the people I know & pass by in the street. Let me assure you that nothing about this 'seems easy', especially having been conditioned under a 'ten commandments'-type education from birth.
@@rigelb9025 That was true for me before I learned permaforesting uses guild's, small mini gardens that are complete when finish, tiny "forests" that can be done one at a time. I have three in the works.
We also replaced all bulbs, most can do this, and when you buy a new stove or refrigerator buying energy star makes sense. And until our permaforest is finished we'll buy a part share in organic farm.
None of this happened over night, it started with research, sitting on it, expanding it, learning more, then making a change, small one, affordable one, one at a time. More research, sitting on it (winter great for this) and then another change.
Remember how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
@@CarolFoegen Ok but how do you square that with, say, the ten commandments, which we've been fed since birth as 'the law'. Do you just get to switch that on and off, until you can't? Like, what's the deal, seriously.
I very much enjoyed the poem headlining the interview with Bill Plotkin. I closed my eyes, so as to hang on each verse. I so much enjoyed the slow reading, allowing the depth of prose to sink into deeper thought.
Still, one statement Bill chose to emphasize before delving into the poem troubled me, and broke my assimilation of the poems deep text. Specifically, Bill stated, "We don't interpret the poem, but we expand it."
I suggested you cannot do one without the other. How can you possibly "expand" something without interpreting it first? Rather than read the poem all the way through to allow us to discover meaning, Bill stopped at given points to inform us what the words conveyed. How is this not interpretation that guides the gist?
I found those breaks distractive, removing me from the train of thought each time.
Alternatively, reading a poem through in it's entirety, to allow the listener to find meaning, seems fairer to each recipient participating in the experience.
Of course, I was interested to hear Bill's evaluation (interpretation), but preferably after experiencing the entire poem first.
I do much appreciate you both for making us aware of this work, and for the balance of the interview.
Cheers,
Don R.
Why, I came to tears listening to this podcast. #while having hardtime to connect to someone like Trump🫣#
38 minutes into this interview, I have to stop. To think, to reflect, on the words and concepts you are laying out. I have always felt alone in thinking these similar things.
♪♪ I'd love to change the world, But I don't know what to do
So I'll leave it up to you ♪♪
-Ten Years After, "I'd Love to Change the World"
This was a really interesting conversation. However there are some red flags around this Animas organization I have seen reported, and would caution others to be careful about diving headfirst into any of their programs.
psychedelic,in a sufficent dose,and beeing repeated,are very efficient,in stopping inertion and create a hope for shedding off our ill skins.
I thought “we don’t explain poems here” 11:58
That's very cool. I want to read one of his books. What is the recommended one to start with?
Figuratively, life shares many similarities with a water powered grist corn mill. The millstones themselves are patterned with harps of land and furrows, with eyes and skirts, grooves and feathering, separating the master furrow from the journeyman furrow, apprentice furrow and fly furrow.
There is agreement amongst evolution biologists, that human evolution has speeded up as the pace of environmental change accelerates. But it is still pretty slow, - and all the evidence relates to our physical lifestyle and environment, not to Education and Culture. Some groups of humans have a genetic mutation that helps them live comfortably at very high altitudes - groups in the Andes, Ethiopia, and Tibet, for example. The mutation in Tibet might have occurred 3000 years ago - but no-one seems to know how long it took to develop.
Another example is a mutation that gives you a larger spleen - this has been observed in groups that make their living from deep-sea diving (without equipment). Will "tecchies" develop a mutation that relates to their work? Probably - but after some decades or even centuries, it would seem. Another mutation related to our physical life is a smaller jaw - we just do not need such a large jaw any longer due to changes in diet. So there is an "epidemic" of tooth extraction in overcrowded jaws, because our teeth have not caught up with our jaw-size change, yet. Another example is the effect of safe C-sections on the ability of babies to evolve a larger head size. Larger head sizes are clearly being favoured by Natural Selection since the C-section become more common, while selective pressures against smaller hip sizes in mothers have diminished. If this continues there could be a vicious circle or positive feedback loop, whereby as a result of increasing fetopelvic disproportion, C-sections would become more and more common, though not to the extent that natural childbirth dies out.
Apart from things like C-sections and deep sea diving, we really do not control Evolution at the moment, despite our new ability to tinker with human genes. Because even tinkering with human genes takes a long time to show widespread results. So the idea that Education can bring about any measurable change in Human Nature in the short term seems fanciful - and I would argue it is also fanciful in the long term.
We know the best way for humans to be and to live - it is in all the ancient sacred texts and myths, from the dawn of "civilization" onwards. A few of us will follow such paths - most of us won't. And the few of us that do, might well not have many children, or even any. Yet the paths remain, for anyone who happens to be born with an instinct to follow them.
As for the other 90 per cent of humanity - they won't even look at the advice, much less follow it. Unless some geneticist finds a genetic mutation that will make the human brain do it automatically across all of humanity.
It might be better to tailor A.I. into holistic thinking - at least there is some chance of success, albeit slender. A.I. is something that humans can try to control - although the fear is that it will eventually go its own way. Would that be so awful? It can hardly make more mistakes than we have done, over millennia.
The fear should be A) will A.I. blot out maverick geniuses like Mozart, Newton, Yuval Hariri, Nate Hagens, etc. and B) will it make the great mass of non-genius humans more grabby and not more holistic? If on the other hand it makes us non-geniuses less grabby, I am happy with that. I cannot even control my own grabbiness, let alone anyone else's, and mine is relatively moderate for whatever reason (genetics I suspect).
If A.I. favours less grabbing, I think the geniuses will be safe - they all seem to have a tendency towards bankruptcy and general untidiness. Even George Boole, whose Boolean Logic enabled I.T. and who might be presumed to have had an orderly life. No such thing, he led a fascinating life but not one of material success and spent any spare time he had ministering to the poor in County Cork, Ireland (and when he could in his home town of Lincoln). He was so neglectful of himself that he walked three miles in the pouring rain to give a lecture, where he kept his soaked clothing on, developed pneumonia, and died shortly afterwards. I think some of today's Tech billionaires come into that category - they have become wealthy almost despite themselves, and personal wealth is not their primary interest - they use it to do other things.
That's wicked dude
Human evolution is ongoing, but very slow. There is some dispute about whether it can be influenced by culture, i.e. can culture alter DNA? In any case, it is very slow - and also not controllable by humans, however much we would like it to be controllable or at least guidable. It may be influenced by humans and their lifestyles - but the evidence for this applies to your physical lifestyle, not "What Did You Learn In School Today?" to quote Bob Dylan. "What did you DO in school today?" might be a better question in relation to Evolutionary Biology.
A sedentary lifestyle indoors is eventually going to have an effect - but after how many thousands of years? Or is obesity already being written into our genome? There is evidence for a considerable amount of polygenic obesity - this is heritable, not in a Mendelian way (monogenic), but due to a whole raft of environmental factors which alter DNA. Can the physical environment also affect our THINKING faster than education ever could (if it even can). Maybe - but if so, how quickly?
Certainly the human brain is a physical construct. It could evolve to favour a more holistic approach - but it could also evolve to favour a less holistic approach. It depends which one ensures survival better. It could well be, that a more holistic approach is more conducive to survival NOW than it has been in the past million years or so. In that case, we could see some evolution in that direction - but I doubt that education by holistic humans would have a measurable effect. It could well have a measurable physical effect on the brain - but would this be inheritable? Would it alter DNA, in other words?
Instead, why not try and pass on your ability to use your right hemisphere through your offspring - and also, maybe try to marry someone with a similar outlook wired into them, which they too will have inherited. Sadly, people with high-functioning right hemispheres have a tendency to marry someone with a high-functioning left hemisphere, for practical reasons of being hitched to someone who is good at grabbing stuff as opposed to contemplating stuff. This does not seem to be gender-related at all, and you will see soulful "realistic" men married to intensely practical "optimistic" women just as often as you see the converse (the reality might be masked by social customs though). And I suspect many "holistic" people are disinclined to marry at all, and always have been.
To evolve in the holistic direction, I would suggest that vast numbers of holistic or soulful humans need to marry someone holistic early on in life, instead of discovering aged 70 or something that they wish they had married someone soulful instead of someone practical. There is no sign of this happening in my limited observation. Not on a grand scale, anyway. And what about if grabby humans start marrying other grabby humans instead of just clicking for three days or something and then clashing irrevocably in a bonfire of grabby meets grabby? In my somewhat jaundiced experience, grabby humans tend to marry holistic humans and then have X no. of grabby friends and lovers on the side. If they were to actually marry and have children with another grabber on a planetary scale, Humanity could become even more grabby than we already are, if that is possible. [continued in a second comment]
"a unique ecological communication"
Love the idea of a poem start, and love the poem, but was too interrupted with commentary.
Poetry's strength is to speak to the unspoken, to the poetic side of mind. The commentary instead keeps bringing in the the thinking brain.
Be kind, be honest, be real. Personal mantra to combat all the conformity to current zeitgeists.
I feel somewhat obligated to share my view that this is a magical interpretation of reality rather than something really grounded. Many of these claims don't map onto the complexity of reality.
For a developmental model or framework, I'd be looking at something like what's in the works of Hanzi Frienacht.
In terms of a simplified story to live into, I think one would be better off going to one of the mainstream religious churches
agree w your first 2 points (other than it requires 'reality' to be defined). I will invite Hanzi as I know him (or half of him). thanks
@thegreatsimplification would love to see Hanzi on here!
I think the "reality" that I'm pointing to is a sense of it that is philosophically coherent and ideally scientifically informed. Some of these claims about how "everyone could/ would go through these stages" or "there is a specific telos nature has in mind" just does not compile with what we understand about people or nature. I think we do need an intersubjective account of what is real, but it is worth being picky about what fits in there as a middle or neutral ground.
I agree that we need this slow down and woven community type of solution as you talk about. I've been trying to figure out how to get people to gather in a non-magical story, and people are essentially not interested haha
As for the established churches - it's definitely a mixed bag out there, but I think there's something to the wisdom in those communities. Maybe they don't have the same focus on ecological issues that more "woo" communities have, but they ground people well. I'd also like to see the types that are in more ecologically minded ground contributing to their local churches. Getting everyone together so we can have a forum that reflects many perspectives and holds them all in generative tension could be really good for enabling people to make better sense of reality together, and then act from a place of better understanding rather than tribal camps.
Disses "magical interpretation of reality"
Suggests attending "mainstream religious churches"
🤦
@anthonytroia1 haha yeah, I'd rather a better alternative, but if one needs to join a community then something with a longer history is probably preferable
I don't know, I think he kind of nailed it with the whole stages of life bit. And how everyone gets stuck at stage three. I think that comports well enough with our decadent, brokent society. Everybody gets old enough to need to get a job and support themselves. But most people, or a lot of people don't really survive being a teenager, or that's when the whole developmental model shuts down. Which wouldn't be an indictment of kids or teenagers of course, as bad seeds or something. But rather of the adults meant to rear them, and simply the adult life a teenager is staring down the prospect of having to enter himself very shortly. I don't know what the solution would be either. More money for the schools! Uh huh....
When you know it... The gravity of that thing
'Rafah'
There was a place they called Rafah
Where are the people of Rafah?
They had pushed them into Rafah
People were torn up in Rafah
Onlookers were torn up over Rafah
The bombs threatened Rafah
As the Sun set over Rafah
Their eyes were shattered in Rafah
Limbs were tangling in Rafah
Half their bodies were taken in Rafah
Half the bodies were going to Rafah
The Doctors have nothing in Rafah
Our only hope was in Rafah
All that was left was Rafah
In the end all we had was Rafah
They were thin in Rafah
Not even implements in Rafah
Let that sink in about Rafah
The war crimes are textbook, Rafah
This is our textbook genocide, Rafah
The Viciousness of Rafah
The sewerage is epidemic in Rafah
They killed 400 again in Rafah
The killed the chief in Rafah
Disease will surely get you in Rafah
One leg, both eyes amputated in Rafah
Who will care for Rafah?
Drones, like the hellfire of Rafah
From Khan Yunis to Rafah
Egypt waits for Rafah
I always imagine myself blown up in Rafah
They left the hospital in Rafah
They left the hospital in Rafah
He said leave the hospital in Rafah
Can't they leave at least a hospital in Rafah?
80 bodies laying outside, Rafah
Asking people again to leave Rafah
We journeyed all the way to Rafah
The sun also rose again in Rafah
There was once a place called Gaza now Rafah
They are leaving Rafah
They are living in Rafah
They are leaving Rafah
They are going to Rafah
We are all going to Rafah
When the last question is asked, Rafah
The answer was in Rafah
The future was also in Rafah
We all remembered Rafah
No one ever forgot, Rafah
Until we started to try forget Rafah
The children are hungry in Rafah
Naledi's family were threatened in Rafah
A million Gazans are in Rafah
The famine has reached Rafah
Drones hover over Rafah
It's unconfirmed of what's happening in Rafah
It's inconceivable what's happening in Rafah
There was a fertile land of Rafah
They weapon they used was Rafah
The terror of Rafah
They were terrified of Rafah
He was terrified of walking in Rafah
We will all die in Rafah
Who are we, if not in Rafah?
They wrote their names on their bodies, Rafah
We served the last supper in Rafah
In the begining of the end, Rafah
No shoulder to cry on, Rafah
Life is destroyed in Gaza, Rafah
Let's retake our lives in Rafah
Return us to Rafah
Keep us safe in Rafah
Stop seriously injuring Rafah
It also killed his wife and child in Rafah
He was my friend in Rafah
She tried to fetch water in Rafah
The killing is thorough in Rafah
Anytime we can die, Rafah
When we remember the war, Rafah
More than anything Rafah
They were guiltless in Rafah
All of them trapped in Rafah
We are all alive still and in Rafah
Our sun set again in Rafah
It was far away, in Rafah
It was a faraway place, Rafah
It was a long walk to Rafah
We took a long walk through Rafah
They had drank the blood of the press of Rafah
Sacrificed their place in heaven for Rafah
She made us crazy, screaming "Rafah"
They spoke in hushed voices, "Rafah"
Did you also hear of Rafah?
Their radio was broken in Rafah
When we thought back on Rafah
And they fought on in Rafah
And they fought on about Rafah
The children asked us about Rafah
We flew a flag for Rafah
There was a place called Rafah
The last place was called Rafah
When we can't remember Rafah
So was it written in Rafah
The new world was born in Rafah
The new resistance came from Rafah
The birds no longer sang in Rafah
There were no birds in Rafah
We had a hand in Rafah
He had a hand in Rafah
Whose hand was that in Rafah?
Which hand was lost in Rafah?
The hands and feet of Rafah
All they had was blood soaked clothes, Rafah
All they had were their clothes in Rafah
They only had blood soaked clothes in Rafah
Everyone lost in Rafah
Everyone was lost in Rafah
Was everyone lost in Rafah?
Did they loose in Rafah?
When they let loose in Rafah
How much did they loose in Rafah?
Will they also loose in Rafah?
What was set loose in Rafah?
Will they kill a whole million in Rafah?
They will make us all go to Rafah
Are they all together in Rafah?
Are they altogether in Rafar?
Did they get to Rafah?
Maybe they will find us in Rafah
When we are sad, we can think of Rafah
If we can be happy in Rafah
If we can be happy, only in Rafah
They won't fit in, in Rafah
They won't fit in Rafah
They won't fit in - Rafah
There is no more Rafah
There is only Rafah
There is only, Rafah
All that was left was Rafah
The whole earth was Rafah
We cried for Rafah
We were cried for in Rafah
We were carried and left for dead in Rafah
The Earth was dead in Rafah
The earth was deadening in Rafah
We cried for our earth in Rafah
In the end there was only Planet Rafah
There wasn't even plants left in Rafah
Earth became dirt in Rafah
Our earth was more dirty after Rafah
On everyone's hearts hung heavily, Rafah
She whispered, "Rafah"
It was far away in Rafah
She called "Rafah, Rafah Rafah"
Her lost child was 'Rafah'
They killed her child in Rafah
No one dared set foot on Rafah
But there was nowhere left but Rafah
Peace was far away from Rafah
They can no longer worship in Rafah
Chloe M
"Business as usual is part of the unraveling..." nice.
We need more efficient solar panels that do not have to be buried. Just another form of creating pollution we need ones that can be reused we need to reuse what we already have on the earth and find a better way to run the cars and everything else we already have
My college poetry teacher said prose analyzes. Poetry synthesizes
Never is relative.
❤
Very difficult for me to
Words a e like knitted shrouds by Madame La Farge.
"truth at the center of the image" sounds like something pulled from the mouth of Christopher Alexander.
Jfc what do you do if your parents don't even qualify for emotional adulthood by contemporary terms 💀
There ARE very fundamental truths spoken here but when Bill Plotkin starts talking about "experiential inversions", "training programs", "5-day immersions ", "guides" etc. I start thinking CULT. - someone who is cynically capitalizing on our current societal zeitgeist for other than humanistically benign motives. Pardon my cynicism, but I found the hairs on the back of my neck standing erect.
I didn't think "cult," but rather "de-programming." Theoretically, you can apply the term "cult" to our modern systems and institutions, no?
@@anitashore5050 Absolutely!
I can see why you might think that given the history of similar movements. But then I ask, how could this type of knowledge, if actually useful, be transmitted without workshops and guides and training? I didn't feel he was putting any hard sell on either, I thought he was just referencing them where it was appropriate. I agree some caution is important but we have to be careful also not to throw out genuinely helpful work because it superficially resembles something else.
Scary what this channel is becoming. It used to be about reality.
Funny how Americans don't think of the status quo as a being a cult. America is one giant cult with two seemingly opposing sects - cons and libs - who both believe in american exceptionalism, delusions of granduer and junk values.
Old age, NewAge, new age, old age...
I don't know if this new age stuff will help once the collapse comes and people fragment into known identities you dont want to be the odd one out
How does a carbon tax actually change anything isn't this just another system of generating money
I just couldn't listen to this. Uhhh.!!! He takes foreverrrrrrr to make a point, and even then, he doesn't make it. So slow. So scattered, his thoughts. Sorry Nate, I understand why this is important, and he seems brilliant. Maybe just a poor communicator. I will get the book from my library and read it.
Agree. Love Nate, but this plodding blather was ruining my walk, and I had to terminate it. Minutes later, I saw my neighbour's lawn was festooned with a multitude of gorgeous amanita muscaria mushrooms, so my walk ended on a high point.
@@Starclimber Same! I went for a walk, October chill and blue skies, Tulip trees, oaks, maple leaves turning orange and red. My connection with nature keeps growing.
And same same, went for a walk, wasn't my vibe, and moved on. Synchronous. 🤔
Scatter-brained blathering nonsense, that's the phrase I was looking for. Thanks!
Have you all heard of the genocide within the genocide going on?
Why does he identify the poets race? Is it important?
He said the poet's last name is Whyte. He didn't identify him as a white person.
@@dustibecker4233 my hearing is bad I was exposed to a lot of noise in my youth, so I listen to the episode again he referred to the poet as a Anglo American that’s sounds like a race to me so relisten to confirm
@@Mikell-h2c Nothing to do with race, but woke culture seems more obsessed with that than ecological collapse which will end ALL racism and ALL races