Can You Ride Aero Wheels In Crosswinds?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- Many people worry about using deep section wheels in crosswinds and often with good reason as it can feel a bit scary when the handlebars twist in your hands. But just how bad a problem is it? In this video, Ollie looks at deep section wheels vs cross winds.
In association with Zipp.
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We’re using some of Zipp’s range of wheels to illustrate this because they are one of our sponsors, and because they have poured a load of resources into actually trying to make deeper wheels easier to handle in windy conditions, but many of the points apply to other wheel brands too. The reason we’re tackling the subject is because disc brakes are encouraging more people to use deep section wheels year around. In poor conditions, rim brakes trash your rims, but when you eliminate that wear, there is no disincentive to carbon other than the initial outlay.
It’s first important to understand what causes deep wheels to feel unstable. So here’s some science. The tyre is the leading edge and splits the air. Behind the tyre, the rim controls the airflow helping it come together smoothly at the trailing edge… This reduces drag and makes you faster for the same effort. This tends to work fine when the wind is at 0-1 degrees of yaw, which means head on. But as soon as the yaw angles increase such as with cross winds, problems arise. This is caused by the air flow suddenly detaching from the rim, causing a drop in pressure and turbulence forms an area of low pressure behind the rim. An area of low pressure behind the rim, effectively sucks it backwards. This aerodynamic stall is a similar concept to that on aeroplane wings.
Do you ride deep section wheels if it's windy? Let us know in the comments. 👇
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Do you ride deep section wheels if it's windy? Let us know. 👇
U dont have even deep wheel
Oh yeah I do , makes me stronger in crosswinds !
I do 6cm deep Wheels
I did for about 4 years (always deeper than 60mm). Wasn't ever overly dramatic and I only switched to a shallower set to compliment my lightweight build.
Global Cycling Network Will
"We're using Zipp wheels because... they're one of our sponsors"
This honesty is why I love GCN and GMBN.
Thanks John!
They have to by law disclose when they are advertising a product.
@@cool_riding haha, small text notice is enough to meet the law. Saying it loud is way more honest way because it goes in the same manner as the content. Not hidden at all. Thumbs up for it :)
you had me at "they make a cool swooshing noise"
Haha yes!
Zipps go brrrr
4:33 - 4:42 This years award for the most considerate overtake goes to K114 GRP.
Because there's a car in front of Ollie and that driver was confused AF
Ollie's explanation of aerodynamics, crosswinds, yaw angles etc is as interesting as Neil deGrasse Tyson discussing astrophysics and the universe - it makes us want to learn more. Good show old chap!
Glad you approve! 🤓
bikeanddogtrips Actually no the Earth is not a Pear. And this guy here is not assaulting his students unlike Neil "sex freak can't explain Gravity " Tightassson.
Danfuerth Gillis You mean you don't want to accept his explanation of gravity? Also, baseless statements like yours, could you stop that please?
MS Bijles lmfao he could.not explain what Gravity is or how the Earth is now a pear Shape. Stop believing these deceivers, real scientists are not actors on Television.
MSc Bijles Neil "women gripper " Tyson never mentions Density, Bouyancy, terminal velocity, and the most Important aspect of what we perceive as gravity : Inertia which actually explains what gravity is. It also explains that 2 different masses will not fall at the same time going higher into less density . This explains why 2 objects dropped from 35,000 feet will not hit the ground at the same time . The reason why it works from smaller drops is again Inertia has not reached Terminal velocity which is the point of equilibrium with Density and Bouyancy. Anyone who talks about gravity and does not mention the Density and Bouyancy aspect of what we feel as gravity should lose their teaching licence.
Oli's transition to GCN has been excellent. Wasn't that much of a fan of his stuff CW but what he now does for GCN is exceptional, nearly at the Matt Stephens level! Keep doing what you're doing 👍🏻
So glad Ollie got in with gcn... Ollie=my fave
Yeah I just decided that Ollie is my favourite presenter with Simon a close 2nd
Like his impersonation of Fred Dibnah.. or was it JS
I dont watch GCN much anymore as i am a triathlete (GTN is better) but i still come to see Ollie. Best decision GCN have made hiring him
MH-370 we all have a man crush on Ollie 😂🤙🏽🕺🏻💪🏼
Triathlon? aka cycling shit sandwich
Ollie's presenting style is top notch. I love these videos.
kudos for explicit mention of sponsorship and simple explanation of the basics of how twitching happens
Thanks Lorenzo!
Ahhh, Zipp wheels look so pretty darn good! I wish I was able to afford a pair.
Pfft, I can afford Zipp wheels... But Id have to sell my bike !
There are similar looking options from the east. If you don't weigh a ton they'll hold up fine. They use the high temperature resins and are available in tubeless. I ride them for many years and I remember shaking nervously going down descents and braking, now I just bomb down knowing that perticular rim can take it. Call it insurance by slow incremental cautionary testing. 😂 At least it works... just be patient.
One of my fellow cyclist bought same Zipp wheels without the Zipp logo. He has taken it up a 12 mile climb and descended without issues.
I've got a 2019 Venge (comes with 64mm rims), and I have to say that it handles crosswinds very well.
The strongest crosswind I've ridden in was around 8 m/s coming in at a 45-60 degree angle and although it was a bit twitchy at times, I always felt like I was fully in control. I previously had a 2018 Roubaix (32mm rims), and strangely enough it was a lot more sensitive to crosswinds. I didn't enjoy windy days before, but with the Venge I don't care anymore. It's fun to ride in any conditions.
Ingemar Bergmark m/s is definitely more scientific than km/h 👍
Beauty of Engineering..
@@okantichrist Why?
@@llavero5 It's 3.6 times better to be precise. Both meter and second are SI standard base units and happen to work with typical wind speeds quite well. It's pointless and unnecessarily complicated to multiply by 1000 and 3600 if you can work with base units instead.
@@lechprotean Why 3.6 times better?.
People understand km/h, but not m/s so it's pointless and unnecessarily complicated make the conversion.
I like Ollie's impersonisation of a burnley or yorkshire accent. But the flat cap did it for me :)
Ollie has become my very favorite presenter. After Matt departed I should have known GCN would step up their game to bring Ollie on board. Way to go everyone! great video!
I've had a few close calls with "deep" section wheels in winds. Being a light rider I often get twitches when riding in high winds, although I do like the weird feeling of having to counterbalance the bike in a strong crosswind. When I'm in a big bunch and the wind pics up I often sit at the back as I do not want to risk anything or anyone's safety. I also learned the hard way when riding on a windy day when I was riding on a road that was sheltered by long hedges. I had my hands off the bars getting something from my back pocket, there was a gate to a field where there was a gap in the hedges, where there must have been a channel of air, the wind must have been strong enough to catch my front wheel and bring me down to the ground. I was ok but did wrek my bar tape and my shifter.
Despite Ollie making big efforts to look and sound serious, you're as hilarious as ever.
Olly's presenting skills are laugh-out-loud; very formal and polite! He's come along way in 4 years!!!
I cant even afford carbon rims wait I dont even ride road bikes WHY AM I WATCHING THIS?
Haha - Brilliant
Keep watching and you will be riding one soon..
@@cliffordromina3527 yea i did that misstake and i got hooked
Stop watching this... I began 1 year ago to watch gcn, few days later i bought a road bike. Yesterday i got my €11000.- Madonne 😍
@@MaxMustermannnnnn well yea i got my self a 1200 bike but that is 2 months of me living with rent and food counted in so thats pretty massive to and damn 11000 i wish i had that amount of money to splash
If I use my aero wheels on the trainer, will i train faster?
At least 50% faster 👌
I think the wheels with nodes will..
Make sure to have a fan blowing straight at you. This way your aero wheels will get maximum benefit.
ohhh yes, be sure to wear booties. It'll increase your indoor training speed by 2 mph ha ha ha
LOL. Just remember that most of the drag comes from your own body. So, first make sure you're riding in an aero position...
Ollie, just a perfect job. So informative, answered many questions. cheers...
I ride both types of wheels on two different bikes. My 2015 Propel Advance SL has Mavic R-SYS on them, shod with 25 mm tyres. My 2018 Propel Advance SL has the carbon rims on them (DT Swiss with Giant branding). I find in all sorts of winds and riding I am a lot more stable on the new 2018 model. It is not just the rim surface you have to take into account but the types of spokes being used. R-Sys round carbon spokes, Carbon rims bladed spokes. Milage per year around 18 000Km. Riding years; since the age of 4 till now 52 = 48 years. :-)
good point!
It’s nice to see a video that confirms everything I have come to believe from experience. You guys are always spot on. Thanks for all you do.
Top science professor Ollie.. I love my 404 Firecrests. I no longer ride either summer or winter bike without DS wheels. My Campag Bora's are great too, though a lot more twitchy as the wind "d'th rise"!
Ollie, you are the perfect latest catch for this channel. Proof that extensive theoretical knowledge can still provide comprehensible facts. That while maintaining modest of witch a touch of comedy. Please don't ever change.
Cheers Jordy! will try my best!
Hey!!!! Loving the new lightning setups on the studio. Really feeling more 'familiar' and comfy.
My first time riding a Venge with the CLX 64 wheels was in fairly windy conditions. I’m not an expert by any means. It honestly is not an issue. A little bit of twitch in the handlebars during the big gusts is it. You get a lot more benefit than drawbacks.
I have a 80mm aluminum deep rim, I do a lot of long rides at first the crosswinds was a problem but after a time it feels nothing I guess because I got used to it and made me handle it better.
anybody else ever do an out-and-back and feel like they have a headwind both ways?
a while back i was out for a ride directly into a stiff headwind, yet right on the other side of the 2-lane, country road, the flags were indicating a stiff tail wind.
certain roadways around me have their own weather systems. no matter what the prevailing winds are, they will ALWAYS be blowing from the south, or SW. depending on which direction the road is oriented.
Not only do I have the feeling that I'm riding into a head wind both ways but frequently in the area I ride, I do. Headwind going over the hill in the morning and then near noon riding the other way you can tell you're going to have another headwind because the steeper road on the way back blocks the wind and you don't get it until the top. But then instead of getting a nice 25 mph ride down the other side the headwind sometimes limits you to as little as 18 mph. I've finally learned to pay no attention since after I get back into town I get to turn broadside to the wind. When I get to within a mile or two of home I'm generally pretty shot and end up as slow as 12. Old age isn't for sissies and at 74 I suppose I qualify both as old and as a sissy. But it's coming for you guys too. One minute you're in the prime of your life and the next thing you know you're riding slow. But the way I see it is, I may be old but at least I'm slow. That beats the hell out of stopped.
Useful, informative with the right amount of humour. All you at GCN are amazing. I am new to riding and find the channel very informative. Lots and lots of useful videos on pretty much everything I need to know as a beginner. Keep up the good work!
Cheers buddy, means a lot!
Good stuff Ollie. I switch between DuraAce C35 & C60 wheelsets (rim brake version). The C60's can literally jerk you into the ditch in a quartering crosswind, especially if a fast moving cattle truck passes you on the upwind side. Wow! Talk about 'blowing your doors off'. Another reason I use a rear view mirror - to see what's coming up behind so I can anticipate and react appropriately.
That Trek Madone is sooooo gorgeous!!
So I got this old touring cannondale a few years back and I really hated that the front rim was shallow while the back one wasn't. I thought I should buy a 'nice looking' deep rim for the front ... until I moved to Denmark. The winds here are blowing my current bike with 40mm away. It's scary and I appreciate the person who set the cannondale with a shallower rim in the front!
The twitchiest wheels I've ever experienced was a pair of box section aluminium wheels. But that wasn't overly surprising, because I was out riding in a force 10. Currently I'm riding 58 mm deep wheels, so far no problems. Also, I've been windsurfing since the 80s, and before I had my drivers license I used to ride my bike out to the beach when the wind was on, so I got lots of practice riding as fast as I could in gale force winds.
Strong presenting Ollie, very engaging
I've spent years seeing GCN videos and still found myself a little perplexed and worried when I see a guy riding on the left side of the road. It still takes me two seconds to manage it in my mind. Human brain is strange. Anyway, I agree with you, I use my Roval 50 all year round, but here, in the south of Spain, winds are almost never too strong.
Well said guys. I have the 404s. So everything you describe and explain is well done. Keep up the good work 👍🏻
Ollie and Emma, Sci-lords of GCN! If you're really nerding out, I'd recommend taking a peek at what Hambini says about aerofoils - he ain't just about bearings! Thoroughly interesting stuff. I like bikes.
Seriously, this video is more in-depth than Hambini's. He completely disregards the wheel as part of a system (apart from the tire+rim combination) and has hardly any mention of yaw angles. People don't ride in zero yaw.
Hi, great info as usual but you didn’t mention overtaking vehicles and oncoming, especially heavy goods vans and trucks that create vacuuming when they speed by.
Keep up the great work.
this is why i love gcn
I have ridden deep section/ aero wheels, My oldest set now replaced were the older V shape and could be rather twitchy frightening in a cross wind, the newest pair the newer type shape were definitely better especially on the wind coming from the quarters rather than directly side on , where you could Stil feel a general pushing
That's a great insight Andrew. Where do you ride mostly, is it windy there?
Andrew Sturman I totally agree with you. I just replaced my “V” shaped wheels 2 weeks ago for a pair of Roval CL50s and it’s absolutely night and day. I pretty much disregard any kind of crosswind now even when descending.
I change my Mavic Cosmic's over the winter months, purely for the reason of keeping them clean. I live in Lincolnshire and after Everest it is probably the next windy. The Cosmic 45's work well though. Great vid well done.
Can attest for Lincs' windiness. Yikes.
You guys are awesome! Thank you so much for all the great content.
Another cracking vid from Freddie Flintoff Jr.
I've got 62mm wheels on my summer bike and 47mm on my winter/commuter bike. I've ridden my winter bike with 47mm wheels in winds up to 30 mph gusts (that big storm we had here in the UK!) and didn't have any real issues - I'm 67 kg.
It can be mildly twitchy, and a bit catchy when you pass gates/breaks in hedges etc, but it's never particularly bothered me. The only time I've ever had issues are when I got a bit too close to the back of a lorry and got caught in the turbulent wake, the vortex shedding makes the front wheel shake from side to side quite dramatically!
I got some 38mm, my first set of aero wheels, albeit pretty shallow. And noticed on my very first ride that it would catch cross winds like mad. I had to go from a 90mm stem to a 110mm just to make it somewhat stable.
I really need some clear measurements/calculations/equations of the lateral force of different wheels (20/40/60mm profiles) and relate that to the total lateral force (when rider and frame is included)
The video is just chit-chat and hurrah for Zipp.
...but kudos for being clear about the sponsorship
check out Hambini website .. esp blog post on fastest wheels
Thanks for a very informative and entertaining video!
Forgetting the effect of spokes ? flat blade spokes will help A LOT as will just a 30 or 40 mm rim...if you're going really fast then yes a big deep rim, but otherwise, no.
Looking up from Mt Everest base camp to the peak I can confirm its incredibly windy - the wind it changes so fast that you cannot believe it unless you see it. You will want a very light bike for the ascent.
Great video! Did not know the details behind the aero wheels. Keep up the great work!
a couple days ago i was riding my deep section rims the first time on hilly terrain. on the descent it was a little bit windy (not much imo) and it was terrifying. i had to slow down considerably. i must say, that was very comforting.
I just got my Canyon Aeroad CFR on Wednesday. I'm a frame size S and size S and smaller now ship with 62mm rims on the back and 50s on the front. Took me nearly all day to figure that out until one of their reps pointed out 'the small print' on the website. They say it's for safety reasons for smaller riders in crosswinds. I have to say I was well pissed, am now wrangling with them to send me a friggin 62mm front wheel instead which is what I was expecting and paid for.
Very nice vide Olie, I just got a canyon cf slx 9.0 used, came with bontrager 60mm deep wheels, and i am suffering a little with the cross winds, even though I am 90kg, I hope i get used to that 😀 thanks for the video!
Yacht racers have known all about vortex shedding for thirty years. It helps that you can flatten or loosen the aerofoil during a race, but not even Merckx would tweak his hoops while riding.
This channel continues to teach me so much, Thank you
I live in a windy city and 40mm are perfect for me, anything over that is unstable and twitchy.
How windy is windy? I'm in the windiest (Wellington, NZ) and questioning if any depth is worth it
Crackin' cap lad!
Use the standard rims in the off season to get an extra 7% training for the same time.
Was hoping for a demonstration by Ollie of getting "blown off your bike entirely"
Isn't that why they hired "James the stuntman Lowsley-Williams"?
You want to put your wheels to the test? Come to Scotland, it's windy on the east coast. Some great rides though.
Hey GCN, you guys should test the effect of different cycling shoes with variant levels of stiffness over long(er) climbs/courses, and see how much of a time difference it makes. I really want to quantify how much faster those £1000 Mavic shoes will ACTUALLY make me.
Yes Ollie both useful and informative lovely cap too I don't have one in that tweed.
I do!
What a nice paintjob on the trek bike !
Riding deep section wheels in Holland, year round (with rim brakes, btw). Builds the character, as my riding buddy likes to put it.
Yeah me too, 80mm all year long. Sure we have a lot of crosswind, but so what. It's not as big of a deal as it's described in the video.
crosswinds are less of a concern when you weigh 105kg , chinese 50mm wheels ftw
Looking forward to my descent down Mt. Everest. Thanks for the heads-up!
Maybe 'descent?'
@@stevek8829 Well, yes. 😛 Thanks for the heads-up! Edited!
Ha ha let Ollie loose on the Science! Definitely is much more of his forte. A good video to have seen but when you live in Central Scotland where now having a roaring South Westerly wind is a bit a rarity and having ridden in conditions where the wind is gusting to 40-60mph (60-100kph) then you are a little more concerned about when and even if you get the chance to run something a bit deeper since you can get blown around in the wind just on a standard box section rim! Think that the most I would go for is around 50mm but that is probably gonna be more for super calm flat days, otherwise a 35mm rim depth is a good all round wheel which is a bit more comfortable. Would be interested to know what difference deep section wheels make for a cyclocross race since they can be run in some rather nasty conditions but you see a good amount of deep sections being used there... Again good video Ollie!
Thanks John! Putting the PhD to practice eh?!
I'm from Stirling too mate
Ollie is the best GCN presenter.
9:30 sorry ollie, but your wind fact is incorrect. The windiest place on earth is my bathroom about 2 hours after a curry
You could have repurposed it when you're riding. Think of it like NO2
I do use wheels 50's depth in wind all of the time and it is, well, i dont recall one day that it was not windy. 👍 Ollie, however i am noticing the nicely hedged roads you ride and can be sure they are graciously blocking your wind, ah I am envious.
Ollie, you're a great presenter!
Consistent cross wind ok (up to a point where not safe due to speed of wind) generally ok as you can lean in or use point of elbows. I think blustery, non-predictable wind and also mountains with bends more chall3nging. Observing road surface before bend looking eg for leaf-movement etc can help. Again, pointing elbows seems to lessen sudden wind impact.
Steve Allen
Im only 62kg, learning to catch the bike when the wind catches it was a skill I had down long before acquiring some lovely deep section spinners...
Also Belgium is kind of windy :) but i'm 82-ish and on road bike I have a 40ish mm wheel and 90mm on my triathlon bike. And actually, when I add the disc wheel, I feel more stable than the 90mm on the back
I've been riding a Zipp 858 front and Zipp 808 rear without too much problems with the wind, pretty similar to my Zipp 303 Firecrest.
Oh the joys of riding HED3s in crosswinds. They were bloody fast though :)
If you can't afford the carbon bling and are stuck on alloy then I'd recommend Campag. Scirocco rims - 35mm depth compared with 25-30mm for most other alloy rims and well made too.
Certainly do. Canyon Aeroad with 404 front and 808 on the rear. 15-20mph crosswinds no problem. And I weigh 75kg. Actually more predictable handling than my old box section ally rims
this was the old good GCN content!! Not the crap which they are about now...
Actually, Mavic V-shaped rims are the fastest wheels on the market at the moment when it comes to cross winds. Their CX-1 technology creates the best aerofoil shape for reducing drag from side pressure.
Hi.I live in Italy.Most of my riding is along the Tirreno sea.I ride a Tri bike with deep dish wheels.60 front 88 at the rear.Along the sea,it is windy all the time.But, with the round ship wheels, it is a little more challenging with gusting side winds over 30km per hour With the V shape it is hell.So,if you buy any type ,buy only round shape design.
Research suggests that it's the front deep rims that are far more likely to gust away the bike and not the rear disc wheel. So basically if you use regular thin rims on the front, you're going to have about the same control.
It's the deep section front that reduces the handle, not the rear disc.
We need more humour from MATT please.
Matt is no longer work for GCN
In my opinion deep section wheels are only for those who race at amature or top level. If you are a cyclist who enters a few sportives each year you do not need to waste money on deep section carbon wheels. They might look good but will do nothing for you if you are unable to reach the speeds to where they perform best. I have the cheapest shimano wheels ( Shimano R500's) on my cervelo S2 for the past 10 years. They are still as true as the day I purchased the bike and the freehub bearings are perfect. I have done 30,000kms on them and have no issues keeping up with lads using aero wheels in sportives. I cycle at around average speed of 28km to 34km per hour over 100km. Save your cash for something else.
My old 2008-2009 100mm Blackwell Research tubulars make a pretty substantial swooshing sound and stall like you wouldn’t believe in any type of wind lol 👍 🚴
Ollie, I like ya, but, as a pilot myself, the plane doesn’t just fall out of the sky when you stall it. Other than that 1 cringeworthy comment, good video. 🤘
It does if you don’t do the recovery properly
Please do a video about aero bikes with deep sections and a climbing bike...
I ride medium depth carbon aero rims in the wind but it can get pretty sketchy with strong crosswinds. I'm not afraid of getting blow off the bike like the video says, but more afraid of the front wheel lifting up and sliding out from under my weight on the bars, causing me to hit the deck straight down at speed.
You've got your hands on a pair of ZIPPs, and you don't talk about the dimples?
And dimples are good for nothing
All these effects are very similar to F1 (obviously, aero). We should only make sure close following doesn't get as complicated in cycling ;-)
Has Ollie caught Jon's cold? GCN offices need quarantining!
I'm sure that sooner or later the Zipp 454's will be available in disc versions. The last time I checked they were rim brake only.
that bike looks awesome !
1. Lean the bike into the wind.
2. TIRES!!! I switched from Conti 4000 to Conti Gatorskins. The stiffer sidewalls really stopped the problems. I have been riding 60mm William's wheels for the past 10 years
the problem are sudden unpredictable wind gusts, constant wind can be unbearable but not really dangerous
You loose a lot of watts with a gatorskin, compared to the 4000. In this scenario there's no point to have a 60 mm rim, if you negate all it's effects with the tyre. Gator has a 19.3 watt resistance at 8.3 bar, 4000 has 12.2 watts, at lower pressure the gap is even larger.
I have some gatorskins and I am apparently not quite strong enough to get them on the rim. Happy to sell them at a very good price.
I went back to a shallow rim (Easton EA90 SLX) due to crosswinds and strong gusts in the mountains and canyons of southern California. Way too sketchy for my tastes even with relatively shallow Enve 3.4's.
So Ollie's everest challenge wasnt realistic enough, wasnt windy enough.
would be interesting to know what difference the seated height and weight of the rider makes, or let's say, the wind resistance overall in combination with deep section wheels. Because I'm 172cm, 70kg and I've been struggling a lot with deep section wheels in crosswinds to the point where I don't feel comfortable using them at all. And I don't consider myself /that/ small and light weight.
More weight will be less reactive in a cross wind as the force the wind is "steering" your front wheel with will have to push against more mass. If the rider is taller then its likely that the steering effect of the wind will "feel" slower due to longer distance between the rider's mass and the bike (longer moment arm).
If your feeling a lot of twitchiness at the bars you could increase the amount of leverage you have over your steering by using a longer stem or wider bars. Working on your balance, core strength and upper body strength would help too. Another thing you could try would be to lower your front tire pressure to create more pneumatic trail and slow down your steering. If your running 25mm tires and you don't smash potholes you could easily get away with 70psi (the 15% drop method recommends 60psi front for your weight and 45/55 weight distribution).
"a deep wheel [...] in actual fact be slower" ??? :D Yeez, every aero chart with different yaw angles says the opposite! The more windy it is the faster deep section wheels are. If you can put down the power! But the wheels themselves are faster. There might be a limit, like in a crazy storm, maybe they would slow you down. But in those conditions it's out of the question to ride them anyway.
There were quite a few TTs where I was freewheeling quite a lot on windy descents. Not a nice experience, that's for sure.
Just as a side note Cape Denison in Commonwealth Bay, Antarctica is the Windiest place on Earth. Cool video though and very informative!
*sigh* you a sick wheel sponsor! ): one day I'll get the 454s