Music Software & Interface Design: Steinberg's Dorico
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 เม.ย. 2020
- In this video, I break down the UX/UI design of Steinberg’s Dorico - an increasingly popular music notation software that competes with AVID’s Sibelius. To help me look at how the experience has been designed, I test it out on real musicians and documented my own experience trying to compose in it too. Is it seaworthy? Does it float? Well... yes it does... but there be jank in them there waters...
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It’s still early days with MuseScore but big changes are being planned!
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SUBTITLES
The amazing subtitles (especially the 'Jank' section) were done by Pentameron:
/ @pentameronsv
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MUSIC
Special thanks to The Bran Flakes for allowing me to use their track ‘Oddio Overplay’ during the ‘Jank it up’ section. Check out their album ‘Bubbles’ here. I’ve loved this for years.
• The Bran Flakes - Bubb...
Visit the Bran Flakes’ website here:
www.thebranflakes.com/
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DORICO LINKS
How Dorico was made - Daniel Spreadbury’s blog
blog.dorico.com/2013/02/music...
Recent Interview with Daniel Spreadbury
www.icancompose.com/interview...
Tutorial for creating contemporary, freely metered music
www.scoringnotes.com/tutorial...
Rockin’ Music
• YAMAHA PSR 340 (DEMO s...
An example of Dorico throwing shade at Sibelius
I love the way Daniel refers to Sibelius as ‘Product A’, then mentions how rest placement improvements are their ‘third highest-voted feature request’, followed by a link directly to the Sibelius feedback community. lol.
blog.dorico.com/2014/02/devel...
Avids share price and revenue
uk.finance.yahoo.com/quote/AVID/
ycharts.com/companies/AVID/re...
Sibelius moving to the Ukraine
www.globallogic.com/blogs/how...
Igor Engraver Handbook
www.yumpu.com/en/document/rea... - เพลง
Meh, not a fan of Dorico. At least in Sibelius you get the option "quit sibelius". In Dorico there is no way to stop Sibelius.
Sure there is. Launch Dorico. Sebelius crashed!
Perhaps we will never find a way to finally stop Sibelius
Sure there is. You just have to tick the box to enable the slider to press the button which opens a pop-up where you can tick a box which enables a slider which lets you press the "Quit Sibelius" button. It's under the Galley View option.
Except Steinberg literally give you money to quit Dorico. new.steinberg.net/dorico/?buy=47538
@@seheyt To quit Dorico's competitor's you mean.
"Ah this is gonna be a nice break"
"Oh shoot, it's one hour"
All that means is I can like the video before I even watch it
Oh, wow...
How do you spend that much time on... oh I see 😧🔥
"Ah, it's gonna be a great break, then!"
It felt like 5 minutes tho, this video is well designed!
Like you said, nice break🐸☕
As someone who likes Coldplay and has a rudimentary understanding of music, you would not believe how uncomfortable it is to be stuck in Geostationary orbit.
Same. It can be really hard sometimes. A trip to a supermarket can take weeks to prepare for.
I guess you and me are drifting into outer space, as chris so elegantly puts it.
To be fair, I'd download the hell out of something that led with "Chocolate Rain."
@@RobFlaxMusic Obviously. Because it's a great song about racial injustice.
Well fortunately, the terms 'Coldplay' and 'rudimentary understanding of music' go quite well together
So you're good!
"The tick enables the switch and the switch enables the button"
Help I am dying
It’s too much jank
OSHA would be proud
If you're dying, the defibrilator better not be designed like this
Advanced defibrillator: “You’re just one step away! Present the death certificate to begin operation.”
"Wow he doesn't sound as deranged as the other videos"
*reaches **57:00*
"Ah that's better"
The true chaos, finally unleashed lol
I should have known something would be off when Jank Man first appeared at 2:00.
I mean, we reached "are you ready for the pain" less than a third into the video, this was bound to go off the rails
Wow I know Rohan is a mangaka but a musician too??
Calling it now, Audacity is gonna be a feature length film.
More like a holiday special. Audacity is dead simple to install, so a lot of time will be saved by not having to do worldbuilding at the start.
@@WillowEpp The ffmpeg and LAME libraries, on the other hand...
@@PentameronSV I think the expectation there is generally that the libraries get used as libraries that other applications deal with packaging. (Or use an OS with a decent package manager. :V )
@@PentameronSV that's windows's fault, not audacity's. on my system it already had ffmpeg, and lame installed effortlessly
OOOOHHHH BOOOOOYYYYY
Can we just appreciate that the Steinberg team downloads a version of the E Licenser without telling you, and then proceeds to tell you that that version of the E Licenser that THEY DOWNLOADED WITHOUT ASKING is OUT OF DATE
And then tell you that the thing that opened the E-Licenser is causing the E-Licenser NOT TO OPEN!
@@kineticstishi JANK IT UP!
@@nutronstar45 love that janker!
@@surkey5055 JANK IT UP!
@@surkey5055 JANK IT UP!
The final twist at the 11th hour that the tickbox enables the switch which enables the button was cinematic gold
It reminds me of those nuclear bomb switches in movies to at are like 4 different covers that the character flips and has to turn a key press
Sibelius: *Sibelius crashed*
MuseScore: *New All*
Dorico: *A d v a n c e d*
The Sibelius meme mood is clearly *quit Sibelius*
@@yonatanbeer3475 true, but the auditory version is Sibelius Crashed--i can still hear the echoing of despair from that video now
@@yonatanbeer3475 I agree; these are user interactions, and the one for Sibelius is Quit Sibelius. The Sibelius crashed is a second meme. - Dorico also has the switch to enable a button it just isn't as memy.
No one can forget about the pop up arrow with the close slider
@@yonatanbeer3475quit Sibelius, Sibelius crashed XD
Can we have the same kind of roasts for DAWs when you are done with notation softwares? Pleeeeassseee?
Second that.
Third that.
Yes please
Dude yes please roast Ableton and FL even though I love both
There’s a kind of precedent for that with the Reason video on skeumorphism.
Darnit Tantacrul, now whenever I see the "Advanced" section of chrome's settings, I whisper 𝒜𝒹𝓋𝒶𝓃𝒸𝑒𝒹 to myself, every time
I’m new to Musescore and I often don’t remember to select the advanced option, therefore I end up trying to look for a feature for ages and when I finally find out I didn’t turn on advanced mode I always say “Now, _that_ is 𝒶𝒹𝓋𝒶𝓃𝒸𝑒𝒹!”
How
the fuckk...
@@TheMountainMan-wz8xf _𝓌𝒾𝓉𝒽 𝑜𝓊𝓇 𝓂𝒶𝑔𝒾𝒸𝒶𝓁 𝒶𝓃𝒹 𝒻𝓊𝓃𝓃𝓎 𝒸𝓊𝓇𝓈𝒾𝓋𝑒 𝓉𝑒𝓍𝓉 𝑔𝑒𝓃𝑒𝓇𝒶𝓉𝑜𝓇~_ ;𝟥
DORICO'S PARTING GIFT. After weeks of tearing my hair out trying to enter a couple of simple jazz lead sheets into Dorico, I finally gave up on it and installed MuseScore. I'm happy to report that MuseScore installed quickly and easily, and is probably as easy to use as any program of this complexity can be. So then I removed the myriad programs that Steinberg installs with Dorico (eLicenser, Authentication Manager, Download Assistant, whatever) during Dorico's nightmarish installation process. The un-installation seemed to go smoothly - but then I realized that my printer was gone! The only printers left on my system were all the fake Microsoft "soft" printers that come with Windows. So I re-added my network printer, which is the HP 7310 all-in-one device, which includes a scanner. Much to my relief this restored my printer. But then much to my non-relief I realized that the scanner component was still gone. When I look in my Device Manager, it is simply gone from the "Imaging Devices". So now the Windows "Scan" application can't find any scanners. Long story short, I've tried to recover this function for quite some time and can find no way to make Windows 10 repair my printer/scanner installation completely. Thanks Dorico, for leaving me with a permanent reminder of my horrible experience with you.
"much to my non-relief" was a delightful sentence to read
A classic windows reinstall should do the trick.
They're just working on that mad vive Tentacrul proposed. "The next time you're uninstalling Dorico, you're uninstalling YOURSELF"
thank you for your comment! $0.02 have been added to your account
*4 months later*
Tantacrul: After much talking, I am now the head designer of Dorico
Edit: oh wow my first comment to blow up! Thanks everyone!!
Soon he's gonna be the head of design of every music notation program...
@@johannbauer2863 Bertie Ahern says he has his tantacruls in everything. (www.irishtimes.com/news/regrets-he-s-had-a-few-1.754819)
I am now the CEO of Steinberg
He will engage in a days-long bloody duel against Daniel Spreadbury to claim the throne of Dorico.
@@johannbauer2863 Let's just unify them all. Take the best of each product and make a super product. And dozens upon dozens of roasts like this video destroying all the worst features left behind.
My head is spinning as I watch this knowing the insane amount of hours it must've taken to research and organize you thoughts, make examples of everything you wanted to demonstrate, compile and sift through the footage of all of the test users, and animate all the shots for this video. This is basically a documentary on Dorico
Yeah, that's about right. It was far beyond anything else I've made in terms of work. It still gives me nightmares!
@Charlemagne I am fully with you!
doricoumentary
HOLY SHIT IT'S TETRIS MAN('s secret twin brother)
would love a comparison between daw's
especially Cubase.
i know you're a musician and thats why you are breaking down music app UIs, but I really like your critical approach and it would be really fun/interesting to see you break down some other user experiences like this, like what Blender can do to be more accessible, DaVinci Resolve vs Premiere Pro, Clip Studio Paint vs Photoshop, etc.
oh absolutely i would love a UI breakdown of blender 3+. personally its the most intuitive 3d design program ive ever used
@@littlesnowflakepunk855 really? To me Blender made so little sense it made me drop my Blender university class. It's the most unintuitive user interface I've seen since I first had to interact with Git. Especially coming from playing around with Cinema 4D back in high school, Blender feels incredibly weird and painful, with its unstandardized shortcuts and janky UI customization
@@Goodwarrior12345 It had its entire UI overhauled in the last couple years. I agree with you if you're talking about the old interface circa 2.7 and before.
@@littlesnowflakepunk855 I was trying Blender out last year, using the newest version available. It was still an awful experience in every way imaginable.
@@Goodwarrior12345 that seems like an overstatement considering it's rapidly becoming industry standard software, but to each his own i guess. i've been in the industry for a while and it's replaced Maya and 3ds max in my workflow entirely at this point lol
I use notation software just once every six months or so, my memory is crap, so I remain perpetually in new user mode. As a software engineer I feel so validated and reassured by these videos, the pure therapeutic value cannot be overstated. Thank you. And no, the free trial experience is still exactly as you describe it, I never got as far as hearing any sound library, I threw in the towel, and went back to trying to repair my Sibelius 8 on a new pc without surrendering my perpetual license for a potential upgrade with unknowable conditions.
As an amateur I think I found a new easy way to compose music and it's a software on the web, and apparently you could even compose together.
yeah me too... always relearning. Yet we can do it so easily with the pencil.... and mostly eraser of course.
As a Finale user, I expect the whole Finale video to be hosted by Jankman and only Jankman
Please! Now, that I know Jankman, I can only think of jank whenever I think about Finale.
@Jiggly He'd be dead even before Finale starts.
Second that!
It will probably be hosted by jankman's cousin...
Interestingly, despite all the asinine design here... I recognised the factory icon as a factory.
I goofed on this one. Everyone seems to know what it means except me :)
@@philipschulze8213 it's a button that says add factory
What does "add factory" even _mean_ in the context of music and sound?
@@Brunosky_Inc factrie*
@@Tantacrul Even though I read this comment before watching the video, the factory icon is so oddly shaped my mind had a hard time recognizing it anyways.
Step 1:
WHNF UCKJ
Step 2:
A d v a n c e d
Step 3:
???
Step 4:
Quit Sibelius
Step 5: New All!
Step 6: Sibelius crashed
Step 7: Tick the tickbox to enable the button
Step 8: NO THAT IS NOT ADVANCED
This should be the new version of the Vim man page.
You're doing God's work. Us software developers suffer from a sort of Cassandra curse. We can usually tell when we're shipping garbage, but the bean counters in charge refuse to believe there's ever anything wrong with the products, so no effort is allowed to be spent correcting it. Please, never ever stop shitting on shitware.
i mean FINALE
Tantacrul in 2025: Head of design of every music notating and UI developing software.
And lets hope he launch his own notation software. Would be the chosen one
All the companies just hand their apps over to him after he roasts their design.
Not again. Software should be written by developers, not musicians. There's too many awful music apps already, written by those musicians with little to no software expertise
@@maryn6792 he... is a developer? He's worked for software companies before, and I'm pretty sure he went to college for it.
@@maryn6792 he's both lol
I am invested in Jankman. How is he? How's the family? Is he also confined in whatever world he hails from?
Also, does he have a sinister twin brother with a thumbs-down nose? The Junkman maybe?
He hails from the hell that is *dreamweaver*
god i love when im casually watching a video and it becomes absolutely batshit insane, thank you tantacrul
Dude, you basically opened the world of UI design to me and the actual consideration of becoming a UI designer myself, thanks for that. I know you have a strong base and I'm late to the party, but holy cow, what an entertaining yet insightful channel, with production values off the chart and quite straightforward to understand even if you're not from a musical or app-development background (I have an amateurish background in digital music production which is probably why you were recommended in the first place), keep being you! So happy I still have 50 minutes to go haha
I’m not a composer or a musician. I don’t know how to play any instruments (other than a couple chords on my bro’s guitar), heck, I don’t even listen to music other that when I’m alone in my car (which is a rare occurrence nice my car is 13000Km away), so it is safe to say that I wasn’t even aware this software existed. Despite all of that I ABSOLUTELY LOVE these hour long videos. I learn a lot and I get entertained in a weirdly satisfying way.
I got into music a year ago by looking at a transcript of a piano piece and copying it note by note into Musescore (my first experience of many) and playing it back to see how accurate it was.
Then I started transcribing by ear and software myself.
Since then I've learned music theory and notation, sound physics (waveforms, harmonics, synthesizers etc.), and studio music production stuff. It's become my main hobby just because I was curious.
All I'm saying is, it's always worth watching stuff like this. You just might find ,,the one".
Bálint Habzda Bro, are you me? How is musescore?
While watching, I didn't even realise the video is an hour long. It pulled me right in.
I'm in the exact same situation, loving these videos without having any use for any of it at all
Right?? This guy talking about music notation softwares shows not only he is a great musician and designer, but also a great, I dont know, VIDEOmaker?
"Saving finale for last"
I see what you did there
And now, the grand finale...
A guy in the musescore video made that joke.
What a madlad.
I went back and watched the other two music notation reviews and *he's been hyping finale up this whole time*
I don't know what to exact but it will probably be an hour long.
@@OdaSwifteye expecting a feature film here
*text on screen:* Daniel Spreadbury
*Daniel Spreadbury:* "hi, I'm Daniel Spreadbury."
*Tantacrul:* "This is Daniel Spreadbury."
*Me:* i wonder who this is?
To me, Igor's decision to call them "Musicians" makes so much more sense. For example, what about vocalists, what are they "playing"?
playing their throats
"Playing with themselves" @@alephzero1984
They play the vocal cords
Sibelius: Roasted!
MuseScore: Roasted… and hired!
Dorico: Roasted… but there’s hope.
Finale: You’re next, and we can’t wait to see you get yours.
I just hope it isn't the finale.
@@Liggliluff it will be the finale for the big players, but there are still some smaller less known programs for desktops and mobiles, especially mobile apps would be interesting, because they have to focus on a different design language
@@webfischi For example Frescobaldi, Musescore's "closest" "competitor". It's like TeXmaker, but for Lilypond rather than LaTeX.
But noteflight!
Definitely the Open Source way of doing things.
You have criticism? FINE. Join us.
Dunno why but "New All" still gets me to this day
"New All"
It's just
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh
"New All"
Old All has run it's course
The day of ascendancy is nigh and the time for New All is upon us
All shall become New, New shall become All
NEW ALL
new all?
sibelius crashed
rumor has it that if you press New All 5 times in a row Gabe appears in your room
Dear Nicolas,
I'm _delighted_ by this suggestion and I propose we make it into our new company mantra…
New All
I feel it speaks to our newness, to say nothing of our all-ness!
…and I'd like to celebrate by getting some *New All* stationery and let's get some *New All* T-shirts printed too…
…so I can shove a *New All* SPIKE STRAIGHT THROUGH MY FACE!
Lukáš Vostal And of course, the humor is vastly amplified by the quit button being right there!
It's not just "the ultimate" Dorico tutorial, not just an extremely detailed, yet clearly laid out comparison between S and D, it also spirals into just being a piece of art itself. Huge congratulations!
Wow, I never thought I'd hear a demo song from a 1999 Yamaha PSR-270 keyboard.
Great work as always!
I had that keyboard as a kid and this threw me back unexpectedly :D
Hey everyone - I'm sure you've noticed that there's been a large gap between my videos recently. The reason is that I have a lot of other bits of work going on to pay the bills. Although my channel is still growing nicely, it's is not yet at the level where I can dedicate the sort of time I think it deserves. So, if you have a bit of spare coin, I'd ask that you please consider become a Patron. If not, don't worry. Thanks a lot for watching, regardless! (both my Eurovision videos which were taken down are Patreon perks by the way) www.patreon.com/Tantacrul. Jankalog t-shirts available here! bonfire.com/jankalog-concept
I noticed there aren't any ads during the video. Is that because it's not possible because it's not popular enough? Or are you just a boss
For videos this long the gap is understandable, but please get funded if that's holding you back.
1h of tantacrul goodness?
The highest quality video I've watched in a while. We all probably are ok with the large pauses in output.
Well if you post an incredible, long awaited one-hour Dorico video, all is instantly forgiven and understood!
While the jankalog t-shirt is exceptional, it is criminal that a t-shirt of jankman with "jank it up!" on it has not been made
100% I would buy it
OMG, you are rosting yourself for putting the piano trio in the musescore video, and as a viewer you can only appreciate this if you first watch the october 2020 video, then the musescore video and now this dorico video. That is some crazy ass planning for everything level 100 thing.... and knowing TH-cam nobody will see this... and now I don't quite know what to d owith myself, lol
For the past 8 years I have been using Sibelius and we got a love-hate-relationship. I started with Sibelius 2, then 4, upgraded to 6 and then to 7.5.
That was the point, were Sibelius started to get a pain in the ass. Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing software and it's easy to write - but Layout and in general "moving things around" is hard to learn and can get frustrating.
I recently switched to Dorico and we are SLOWLY becoming friends.
The layout of the scores is much cleaner and when you learn a few shortcuts (most of them are similar to the ones from Sibelius) you get really fast with typing in notes, dynamics and articulations. The tutorials on the Dorico channel have been really helpful.
Sidenote: When I was at university, I did not learn about Sibelius, Dorico and Finale - we learnt about Lilypond and it was the most frustrating thing EVER in my entire life! Like, what the hell?? 🤯
From what I know about Lilypond, it seems like the kind of software that is only really suited to somebody who's both a composer and an engineer/programmer.
I do like the idea of Mozart using Sibelius
"welp Symphony No.40 just crashed and i forgot to save, guess i'll have to restart"
Fortunately, it was still on his ringtone.
@@mvv1408 his phone was on vibrate
He writes too fast and Sibelius doesn’t have enough time to crash
@@wilh3lmmusic The composer is so quick that his software can’t even write a file as fast as he writes his music
Become Mozart
*Sibelius crashed*
Independent Steinberg Certified Trainer here... I've lost count of the number of times that the whole Steinberg sign in / Elicenser / Download Assistant thing has been trouble for clients. I've had some who have BOUGHT Cubase and ended up not using it because they've got nowhere with installing it. I've been doing a 'lockdown learning' course trying to get people started using Cubase, and dedicated a whole video to downloading and installing it because I know it's a massive hurdle for many first-time users to overcome, and not everyone makes it past this step.
So, I couldn't agree more with your comments. And you also didn't mention that Steinberg's shop uses different login credentials to the Steinberg ID - makes ZERO sense, and is definitely "inside view" related. I hope they change it.
I've been using Cubase for years and have never even thought about these issues. Guess it's much harder for the devs. I've pretty much installed and used all major DAWs on dozens of different systems. Logic has pretty much the easiest routine, Pro Tools On Windows is often the worst to set up. But I have to admit, compared to the one click install of Logic or Ableton, Steinberg's software is pretty much inconvenient, more so if you're not used to hardware dongles.
Also... Giving that in China all Steinberg software are supported directly by Yamaha, who also license local resellers, it's just weird that nobody bothered to sell those dongles, as if nobody would be mindful enough to, I don't know, not pirating the software?
I love that they do support Chinese Yuan as currency unit in the Steinberg website (and I can use Alipay too, and my only complain is that the price is based on Euros, aka more expensive), but nah, the official site doesn't sell dongles that are shipped from China, and I ended up having to buy from an unlicensed reseller (who basically order a whole bunch from the official website so that the international shipping fee is split).
They (more for Yamaha) really should just learn from Native Instruments -- with a registered local division, licensed out all physical products to resellers (so that everyone can just order online), and with all global sale event synced, which even applies to resellers. That's how all companies should do local reselling.
even CUBASE's GUI is not intuitive at all to my eyes :( (that's just me though)
If only I had known before I lost more than 2 weeks of my life. I was unlucky/lucky. I had no option but to carry on. I am speaking as somebody with decades of experience working with software professionals in a multi $M environment. It was without doubt the worst software experience imaginable. I've seen people sacked for much much less. Completely avoidable.
phew rant over! feel better now.
Thank you. I sometimes get confused with these videos existing in online courses for other things like Python, which are much easier to install, and then I remember most people didn’t grow up like me, having to sneak behind blockers and missing admin permissions to update Flash Player at a library so I could play games as a kid.
I just wanna say how much I appreciate your theatricality and polish. Usually videos like this are 100% banking on controversy and negative emotions. You add fun and artistic expression along with suggestions for the products you critique. That’s super refreshing on TH-cam.
I used to sell pianos in the late aughties. Seriously, Clocks and... that... thingy from Twilight were all you needed to know to sell pianos to 99% of people. Like, their decision rested on whether or not the piano could be made to play Clocks. I sold a lot of pianos, but man I felt dirty at the end of the day.
So now that you’re head of design for Musescore, when are you gonna implement the eye of Terpsichore?
would be nice for an april fools' build lol
Im sure that the next version of Musescore will at least have an improved logo.
@@DonYurik Actually, the logo is already improved soon after the Musescore video came out. i.e. It's not tilted now.
But the help texts still annoying as hell. I really like the eye.
57:53 That was probably the funniest part. I cannot actually believe they have a checkbox that enables a switch that enables a button, that actually has to be a joke..
My guess, and I've never used Dorico, is that the first switch is some sort of override enable for that setting that would otherwise be set at a higher level somewhere. Still doesn't explain the other redundant control.
Having just tried Dorico myself, I gotta say it's the weirdest thing. Almost effortlessly, I was able to create a piece with a 7/12 time signature and a custom tuning system with a custom key signature of bIb (and it handled it all really fucking well), but it took me a decent amount of time to figure out how to enter notes and a bit more time to figure out how to enter chords. It's got potential, I'll give it that much. I guess I'll keep it in mind if I ever wanna do some funky non-dyadic time signature jams. Til then, I'll stick to Musescore. At least there I know how to enter a fucking chord.
I have been using musescore for years and after getting used to Dorico it’s ao much faster entering chords and intervals
Dorico seems to be built on very strict logic. You aren't writing notes, you are basically just writing a MIDI-file, where each note has a pitch, length and start position. Then Dorico converts this into a proper formatted note sheet. So when you see two notes with a slur, that is still one note in the MIDI-file represented as two, and that is why you select the whole group. As explained in this video.
Dorico could easily improve this system. For example, in the notation, allow the user to select parts of the note, such as only the slur. They need to work around the UI for this, as you're selecting something that doesn't exist in the MIDI-file. But when you delete this slur, the note in the MIDI-file will be converted into two notes of the same pitch, with the lengths according to the notes shown on the sheet. This is already a feature as part of the scissoring tool, so they just need to allow you to select and delete individual slurs too. The same when selecting one of the two notes and deleting that, which also deletes the slur; it works the same as you using the siccors and then deleting the second note. Dorico can do this, they just need to implement this.
Dorico also needs to fix the rest. A rest is where there are no notes in the MIDI-file. This is why you can't interact with them. When selecting a rest, you have selected nothing in the MIDI-file. Dorico can solve this by making all rests into dummy-notes in the MIDI-file. This way, you can split up a rest into smaller parts, as this dummy note will be split into smaller parts too. This will allow a rest to be mutliple rests in a row. Because they are now represented by something in the MIDI-file.
So Dorico is on a good way into a logical system. And also implement the features suggested in the video; like choosing time signature and tempo when you create a new file. More of these software should do this.
Thanks for this. I'm understanding this as "Dorico is a MIDI file editor, not an engraving tool". That definitely helps me to decide whether to move to Dorico or not.
I could tell from watching this video that there needed to be some sort of underlying technical reason as to why the tools are structured this way. The idea of that all being tied to MIDI makes sense. Though it clearly creates awkward situations when actually trying to write sheet music in it, as we see here...
I'm the poor soul at 18:43. Until today I was never quite sure whether something in my setup messed up badly or doricobeep really sounded like that, and I didn't dare press play again to find out. Well now I know it isn't just me.
You poor unsuspecting soul. As a guy who always has Volume Mixer(thanks discord blasting their notification)
I would've notice the volume jump up
The death of your ears makes my day every single time I watch this video though, thank you for your sacrifice
If you pay really close attention you'll notice that I panicked so hard I accidentally pressed "record" instead of "stop".
One hour of Tantacrul reviewing stuff- This must be heaven
53:14 :D
I'm not sure who else would notice this but I love the glitch text in the closed captions 57:06 the fact that is even included shows a lot about the level of attention to detail.
would love to see another Dorico video now the Dorico 5 is out, would be interesting to see your critiques on the updates!
Im getting muse score knowing that you're on the head of design
Super duper worth it.
Yeah, it’s cheap and pretty easy to use (and there are an absolute ton of user made scores you can import)
@@danielrowson3379 They unfortunately made downloading scores for 99% of the content on musescore.com paid now. :-(
I've never used any music scoring software before but seeing how they make an active effort to fix their issues (and the fact that the Head of Design appears to be very competent), I've just downloaded it and I'm giving it a try. Maybe it won't break me or something.
Azdrawee when did they do this?
Other people: watch movies for entertainment
Me, an intellectual with no knowledge in music: watch music software reviews
this ^
Tbh i watch this channel because it gives good advice on GUI design and guidelines to make it more intuitive and the fact that is all behind a rant makes it all more entertaining
I never watch movies, but watch rants about things I don't use or understand.
Welcome to the club.
Why not, you learn a lot by watching these 😊
Even as someone who has music knowledge I always come back to these for entertainment
24:55 That part makes total sense to me. Sometimes you want to add multiple instruments to one score. Sometimes you want to add one instruments to multiple scores.
Or maybe you are just thinking about it one way or the other - by providing both options you make it easier for both groups to do it.
One of the best things about Dorico by far.
The moment you said “Dreamweaver”, I felt my fight-flight-confront response engage.
"Oh, wow. It's over an hour..."
~
"Oh, wow. That was amazing!"
Seriously, Tantacrul, I only wish the same amount of focus on UX was shared amongst all software developers.
Also, if Jankman couldn’t handle Dorico, Finale might literally kill him
He might be dead even before Finale starts.
Jankman is Dorico
I believe in him.
he grows stronger with every iteration.
Papyrus
“That’s beautiful.”
‘nuff said.
I still don’t know what’s happening but I can’t stop watching
Man, just yesterday I rewatched the Musescore and Sibelius episodes. I found out about your gainful employment at Musescore, and figured that was the reason for the (completely understandable) upload drought.
Oh how wrong I was.
EDIT:
Just finished it. Absolutely top stuff as always, I choked on my tea twice.
I'm in the same boat. After watching the sibelius video and finding about his position at Musescore yesterday, I was thinking: "Hey since he is now with musescore will he ever do that dorico video?"
Choking on your tea is not advanced.
20 seconds in and we already are throwing shade towards Adobe and Microsoft.
This is going to be fun.
49:57 oh lord, imaging being one of those Engravers, painstakingly spatula-ing each note and bar line. the kind of patience that would require is unthinkable
Tantacrul is like Hbomberguy in that he can make a video about a subject that I have basically no interest in - in this case, interface design of music notation software - and present it in a way that I'm like "Aw sick, sign me the h*ck up, sailor!"
When I was in high school ten years ago, we used Dreamweaver to make a website (I think I made a TF2 fanfiction diary or something, glad I can remember that and not more important stuff) and I remember distinctly thinking that it ran like shit, the interface was slow and clunky and seemed to be a bit old fashioned in terms of how fast the web was moving those days. 0/10, doesn't even weave dreams
Old fashion in the 00's...
Oh yeah yeah
They had us make a webpage in it in high school as well. Was laggy as hell as well, even when I decided to try it out on my home PC at the time that was a highish end gaming PC it still ran terribly.
Did you go to my same school? We had to make little profile sites around themes every term, with a final presentation at the end because mandatory stress curriculum. I had fun with it where I could, and not knowing Dreamweaver is basically useless, you could argue naïvete was a blessing at the time.
I am in high school now and our teacher makes us use it. And its a really outdated version too
Wait wait, you're the head of musescore? So, you destroyed the app so hard they gave up and gave it to you?
angry scottspeople are a thing to behold ay
MuseScore interviewer: "So what makes you fit for this job?"
Tantacrul: "Ur app sucks lol"
...hired!
@@raulperez2308 Tantacrul is very Irish though.
Raúl Pérez Scotspeople? The man could not be more Irish
the worst part of all this is i've been in ireland
The differences between sibelius and dorico seem to be that between perl and java. The first gives you a massive unorganized toolbox that easily lets you do the wrong thing while the second replaces the toolbox with safety scissors to make it hard to do the wrong thing, but also removes your ability to efficiently do the right thing.
I'd rather take perl over java any day.
since java added lambdas its become way better. I often see people hating on it for no reason mostly because they see boilerplate code from the early years and think it is still like that.
Neither seem appealing to me... need my C++ subset that I use (mostly C but certainly some standard library stuff, no point in reinventing the vector class for instance). Need my compiled languages and JIT doesn't count. :P
@@spinnenente I write C++... I'm not worried about boilerplate. I'm concerned about how their garbage collection was so trash the last time I used it that I needed to put the gc call in my loop to manually beg the garbage collector to do it's job. I think iterators are stupid shit because literally the first algorithm I was trying to write in Java needed to modify the objects being iterated over during the iteration.... I don't use that part of C++ (the iterators). I'm pleased as punch to use the standard for loop because I know how many iterations I need and it always works as expected. If I don't know how many I need, then an iterator isn't going to be useful there either because I'm probably changing the number of objects in the loop... Java just has too many obnoxious things like that. Yes, many of them can be worked around, just like you can write "unsafe" code in Rust as well... but C++ is my pragmatic middle ground between do what you want and having pretty decent checks and tooling to fix things when you do go astray while being pretty quick.
@@zvxcvxcz 1. lol at the reply to the 1 year old comment
2. Calling the gc in code just shows you don't know what you are doing mate.
One fix I'd do for Dorico is to put the "correctness" of note inputs as a spelling check function in the engrave page, where correctness on the page matters. And there, like a spelling check in word, it goes through all the "misspellings" and gives you the option to fix, skip, or undo your last input. That way, you can still fiddle with the writing process without your notes constantly being changed, while also still having the really nice option to make sure your score's note values make sense to anyone reading it.
Hes like the gordon ramsay of music. 90% of the time i havent a clue what hes talking about. But boy do I like to hear accented man talk bad about specialty products
underrated comment
I think you nailed it.
This comment was sponsered by Dreamweaver
Not really.
I used Dreamweaver in high school. I'm not sure if that was the best intro to coding but, hovering buttons! I felt mild accomplishment.
Didn't they discontinued dreamweaver. I don't know why but I have nice memories of it from 7 years ago
brother
Phillip Maddock nice profile picture!
@@lunahoshi2844 B R Ø T H E R
I never knew music notation was THAT rich! This is like typography squared 😯
Make sure to turn on the subtitles, especially for the "Jank It Up" section. They're a real treat.
_Love that janker!_
Me: Thumbs up!
Jankman: That's a bit on the nose.
I love the furious blood-thirst speech at the end
"The next time Sibelius crashes...
*I T ' L L B E F O R E V E R* "
Your channel is a prime example of how to package a topic into a 67 minute video without me getting bored in any way while I'm not even that much into music notation. I know how to read sheet music given enough time and that's it :D So props on you for actually making me watch this video fully through! Also I'd love to see more explanations about concepts of UI design in the future!
I don't understand music composition but as a computer engineer just listening to the Dorico installation process is maddening.
Downloading a download manager after clicking a button that said it was the program itself is like, 99% chance of downloading a virus posing as a download manager. (Especially if the software is prone to piracy, which as a pro tools thing I assume it is.) And then the download manager wanted you to download a download assistant? What next, it wants you to download a toolbar or extension for your browser? It sounds so much like a malicious software attack that I wonder if Dorico users are brave, incredibly well-informed, or just really careless.
I feel like I'm on the opposite end of most other people, I've always used Dorico and have never used Sibelius. When I first started writing music, I used Musescore, but once I got a job and saved some money, I immediately searched for an upgrade, and then I eventually settled on Dorico, and wow was it a change.I really struggled using Dorico at first, and would honestly switch back to Musescore for my larger projects, but I made myself truck along with Dorico because I knew if I learned it, I would be better off. This video reminded me of all the things that I originally struggled with, and reminds me that even to this day, nearly 3 years later, I still encounter jank that, for me, is just routine at this point (namely this jank where I enable Note Input and it won't disable unless I enter a dud note). Dorico just makes sense to me at this point, I'm used to having the different Write/Engrave/Play tabs, I'm used to waiting 3 min to add all the players I want to.
What I really want to share though is why I chose Dorico over Sibelius: Dorico was growing, I bought it around the release of 1.1, and a few months later 1.2 came out, after that, Dorico 2. It's currently on Dorico 3, and it's added everything I've wanted and more, and I'm still expecting new updates and additions every few months. Sibelius, on the other hand, seemed stagnant. I honestly don't know how much Sibelius has been growing in the past few years (if at all), but I know for a fact that it's nowhere near as much as Dorico, and I don't regret my decision at all.
Sidenote: If you thought downloading Dorico for the first time was bad, just imagine downloading and activating it on a 2nd computer, dear lord it took me hours to figure that shit out
Wait, you can download Dorico on multiple personal computers? I just figured I couldn‘t
That's what I like about Musescore as well: constant growth and improvements. (Unlike Finale and Sibelius). Idk, as someone who studies composition at music college, I don't think other programs really worth it, even though everyone I know uses Finale or Sibelius; I always hear that Finale is the best for publishing and Sibelius is the best for composing, nobody knows Dorico and people tend to think that Musescore is trash. So it looks like I'm noob for using Musescore.
I'm don't really have spare money to buy those apps, so I'm super glad there's such a (imo) great option that I can legally use for free. Looking forward to seeing the improvements Tantacrul would bless us with 🙏
@@NonsenseTreasure i just recently downloaded 3 (the version that Tantacrul designed) and holy shit is it better than previous versions by leaps and bounds. but even the original was significantly more intuitive to use out of the box than any of the others, even if some functionality is limited in the process. this makes it a way better option for baby composers who won't have a lot of money to spend on a program or any experience using music notation software. something about unleashing the creativity of passionate people who know what they're doing without the constraints of profit, top-down oversight from corporate types who really understand the project, unreasonable deadlines, budget cuts, etc. blah blah blah capitalism sucks, especially when it comes to artistic endeavors
Glad to see theres someone else like me! I also think getting to know the keyboard shortcuts is great I just still hate how on engrave mode all of the markings are connected so when you move one thing everything else moves
I love the subtle gag with the Victorian Sibellius crash message.
In most ensembles, most of the players are playing a single instrument throughout. Composers tend to think of their scores as a collection of different voices, not players, unless writing for an extremely specific ensemble. It’s really not that hard to just do an instrument change through a text object when needed.
I feel like Dorico is made for theatre composers.
I was wondering this myself. Unless you are a percussionist, it doesn't usually come up. Never has a violinist in the middle of a symphony been suddenly asked to pick up a piano.... So why so much effort for switching instruments?
I was bracing myself for an overplayed covid joke after that kiss and when it didn't happen I felt like I'd just been saved from drowning
2011: Green is not a creative color
2020: That is not advanced
2011?! Was it that long ago?
@@qwertyTRiG > 30 Jul 2011
Yes.
@@PentameronSV Terrifying
The past is far behind us :(
@@PentameronSV huh? how? why?
You make me laugh with more intensity and more duration than any stand-up comedian today; more than any comedy show for that matter. You exude an elegance in how you display your depth of intelligence and broad understanding equally of both technical and artistic ideas. Your concrete understanding of user interface design elevates how you are able to communicate complicated logic, like tedious software work-flows, with your editing. Your content deals with what a broad audience would consider too specific to relate to or esoteric, but you're able to make it relatable on a human level (but maybe that specificity is why I react to your comedic punches more than a typical stand-up comedian, I'm not sure). Your satire is so well timed, I get lost in a flurry of gasping-for-air laughing that I realize whenever I watch your videos I've been missing for far too long in today's entertainment ecology. Thank you. You are such a distinct and inspiring light when it comes to independent artistry and craft. Incredibly uplifting to share time with your work.
That was so eloquent.
"YOU MISERABLE JANKY HACK FRAUD!!" with the Credibility meter shooting down to 6 still tickles me like few other things manage to.
If you can get through the hour buildup, the punchline is one of the funniest things I have seen in a long time.
Couldn’t agree more!
Seriously, Marty, you are just _really_ funny!
I feel like Dorico is perfect for *transcribing* songs.
❤❤❤ I don’t use composition software- but I work in the usability design world. I abandoned Cubase on day one due to the experience you mentioned here and shifted to Logic Pro. Gotta love how a free trial convinced me to use the competition. Thanks Tantacrul for doing this. I’m happy to be one of your test subjects if you need one.
Is there a JankMan shirt?
You are *everywhere*!
@@natemyers1791 laughs in Just a Guy Without a Mustache
Never thought I’d see atomic shrimp on a tantacrul
57:22 just thought id leave this here for anyone who wants just the JankMan part
It seems like good content creators watch other good content creators.
It's not a Tantacrul vid without some level of nervous breakdown mixed into it
I'm blown away by the quality of your videos. I find UI design fascinating now thanks to you. I could watch these videos all day.
Sometimes i like to create a few empty handed players and leave Dorico open so I feel like I have friends.
I opened Dorico......
Sibelius crashed.
And so did your chat-software :)
Pressing quit sibelius crashes paper mario
Jesus Christ, this thing is a masterpiece. The jank break down at the end is the ultimate payoff.
Just fills me with the sort of frustration I'm sure you have felt making this video.
That janky section had me rolling omg. Thanks for a wonderful and insightful video Tantacrul! Your editing and creativity blow me away!
I come back to this video so often just for the jank.
Here's the thing about open source software, it starts out as an awful clone of the existing offerings, then it slowly catches up before meeting the functionality of its inspiration and then improving on it at the same methodical pace, and for free to boot.
The reason this happens is because programmers are a weird bunch, who will readily solve the problem ourselves rather than wait on someone else to do it if we can help it. I would happily spend weeks building a new feature that I want if I know that the main team won't get around to it fast enough, and because of my impatience, they probably won't have to.
I assume this is the reason that a lot of big games have such huge modding scenes for features that the main devs will never bother with. Minecraft and Farming Simulator immediately come to mind. On the bright side, when programs are open to mods, plugins, and the like, it makes the user experience *extremely* customizable. And that's truly beautiful.
Re: starts as awful clone, and then catches up: Id always thought that open source software was famous for having terrible design and ux, especially when it came to usability, the main subject of the video. There are some popular exceptions, but not many I’ve seen. Audacity has outlived the apps it was based on, but still can’t be operated without some googling. Seems like many contributors (not all!) are used to looking up forum posts on how to do x or y when coding or working with command line tools, so spending effort making 1 intuitive software feature instead of 2 unintuitive ones seems wasteful to them. They don’t seem to test the software for usability much, mainly bugs. Different mentality, different pros and cons, different audiences too, so not saying they are doing it wrong. They do often have a lot of really cool power users features and flexibility.
And then there's GIMP. GIMP is structurally based on a completely different model and is just sorta shoved into looking kinda like PS.
@@charliekahn4205 I know. Gimp is weird and janky, but I like it better than Photoshop for playing around with designing logos that go to nothing.
If GIMP were actually based, then it would cost Adobe a lot of money. I hope this happens one day.
"You forgot to check the tick box on your Blue Tack"
Beautiful.
Great Video! When you got to the Jank at the end I was literally laughing out loud and this was at 5:30am after being up all day. This rarely happens to me lately because all of the BS going on. Thanks for lightening my mood. I really hope they can fix the things you brought up in such a hilarious way. Great job, you have a new subscriber.
Are you me? It's 5:30am right now...I got up at 8
47:42 I don't know if this was intentional but those notes and articulations look like an angry man with reading glasses staring at me as if I interrupted him during reading his favorite newspaper. :D
MuseScore actually fixing their problems?
It's like FOSS is actually a good model!
When you hate a product so much you become their head of design
@@certifiedpossum8655 if he hated it he wouldn't have offered ways to make it better lol
It's really not. This is a byproduct of efficient error reporting and fixing, but you have tons of years old bugs that no one wants to fix in all software, FOSS included. FOSS is even worse in that regard because you actually SEE this gigantic backlog
@@matthieulucas9059 how is that even worse??
He didn't hate MuseScore. He had major criticisms of aspects of it (he spent a fair amount of time moaning about the shape of the m and the pause articulation in the logo, which let's face it is nitpicky!), but there was a lot of praise in there as well. It's just the negative bits tend to be funnier so we remember them.
Musicians: "I hate using music software"
3d artists: "Hold my donut"
CUDA error: Out of memory in cuArrrayCreate(&handle, &desc)
someone show this man zbrush
Will it BLEND?
Out of curiosity, what do you think of Blender?
@@gavintantleff I mean blender is free, i imagine thats the standard introductory software for those looking to get into modeling.
I dont know much about music but from what you’ve said it seems like Dorico is like if a text editor forced autocorrect. If you use improper grammar or spelling, or don’t use two spaces after your period because that’s what they *decide* is better- it “corrects” it for you. Dorico looks really beautiful compared to Sibelius, and it’s mindblowing that the same people worked on both of them. This video was amazingly well-made. Good job!
TH-cam just flashed up this blue banner showing the thumbnail to this video, asking "What did you think of this video?". It had a 1 to 5 star rating, and eight "Please tell us more" tick-boxes (fortunately I didn't have to switch a switch to allow me to tick the tick boxes...). It had generic descriptors such as "Enjoyable", "Informative", "Useful"..... Oh, and "Life-changing". This video is now on record as being life-changing, and I seriously hope more fans of the channel get that micro-survey, because that absolutely made my day! Jank it up!
Can we take a appreciate the fact there isn’t 100 million mid roll ads
That “no incorrect notation” is like if Microsoft Word, while you were writing out the first draft of your essay, refused to let you keep typing until you corrected a spelling/grammar error, or auto-corrected any spelling or grammar error whether you wanted it or not
Exactly, why not just have the option to have it marked in red so you don't overlook it later?
I was once forced to use Libreoffice.
I quickly turned off the autocorrect. It was annoying and made corrections I did not want more often than it fixed things.
Are we thinking of the same program? The Word I remember would watch as you drive your document into an irredeemable state and not even complain.
Spellcheck _is_ a bit pushy though
@@dz4k.com. Fif is saying that the "no incorrect notation" thing doesn't make sense in "x" context.
They're not saying it's ACTUALLY like that in Word
@@dz4k.com. (nah man, Word doesn't actually do that, i was just putting it into terms i could understand with a program i've used since i'm not a composer :)
I love your work - thanks so much for creating these videos!
32:00 i actually like the idea of not starting with a time signature and having an infinite bar (if it were made more obvious that it’s an infinite bar, didn’t change the note durations, and made it more obvious on what you had to do to add the barlines) because it’ll allow you to write your score and figure out it’s rhythm before you have to figure what time signature you’re in