When you teach yourself to lean forward like that, you will also do this in the lunge. The problem you will run into is that when parried you are no longer in a position to counter-parry the riposte and you are all the way open for a riposte on the back. “Octave riposte sur le dos” is a classical parry riposte for an attack the way you make it. Balance and being ready for counteractions is as important to the execution of the attack as every other bit of it. If you need greater reach, just keep your torso upright and lunge, maintaining control over the situation. You never want to lose control without knowing that you can swiftly regain it, meaning you were never really out of control at all.
Okay, some of this added some insight into extensions and accuracy, but it feels like the whole this was a little over complicated. Sure, hitting with the hand higher than the point does help with not missing over the shoulder, but it does not change the distance at which you can hit. In the video there is a clear lean, which is only needed because you're out of distance. It is helpful to see some theory and thought behind better extension practices, but to claim that this method makes you able to hit from farther away is a stretch (pun intended).
It looked like from the “bad distance,” the S-Class extension leans forward whereas the classic extension does not. Does that mean you’re not allowed to lean when you do classic extensions? (Relatively new to fencing so I don’t understand a lot of the terms and details on what I am and not allowed to do)
Thales Qi-Scott this is a really good question. The s-class extension does have a lean, however it comes as part of the hit. Typically when people learn the classical fencing lunge they are taught to extend their arm, THEN lunge. This of course varies from club to club but it’s a common teaching technique to emphasize arm first. Some clubs will have you smooth out the motion so that it eventually becomes a single tempo lunge, while others really emphasize the extension then the legs. Why I bring this up is that the lean you get with a classical extension is different. We’ll try to cover this briefly in our next video, but if you can imagine that your arm is locked at shoulder level (doesn’t raise up like in the s class hit) then the only way you can reach further is to lean drastically which gets rid of the benefit of balance that we talked about. Additionally, fencing is freedom. If you can find a way to make something work you totally can do it! Some ideas might be more viable than others, but as long as you’re not breaking any rules you can be creative and do whatever you can think of. Everybody develops their own way of hitting, in our philosophy the ideal fenced can use any and all striking techniques from all school of thought to expand their toolbox.
because it is. I was told that a lot of foil instructors who were either classical or had started teaching a lot time ago and never updated usually raised their arms because when it was all dry, raising the hand at the end of the extension helped signal to the ref that the attack arrived
in classical hit you also should aim with the fingers/wrist though. If you are overshoting your hits, it means you are not aiming - you should always have your tip aimed at the target area
GdzieJestNemo completely agree. Our next video is gonna cover this subject. We’re going to be talking about angles and the differences between both hits. Again not saying one is better or worse than the other. They’re different tools for different purposes.
Thanks Ben! Yes and no. While we believe the hand should finish above the tip and past the shoulder, the takeaway is *why* it finishes that way. It's a reaching motion, as if someone is pulling your hand forward, rather than actively lifting your hand upwards (which usually results in people lifting their guard above their head).
yeah, I don't really agree with this. I used to always extend the "S-Class" way, whatever that means, from my first coach. My second coach (who was definitely better) said the raised hand at the end of a lunge was a habit formed from when foil was all dry, because it made it easier for the ref to tell that an attack just arrived. The thing is, your trig doesn't make sense. If your hand is a certain distance from your opponent, then the "Classic" extension is meant to travel that distance to its maximum, making sure your range is as far as possible (in this example I'm disregarding the additional distance from a lunge). The "S-Class" extension places the hand above that line, meaning that now there is a separate angle from the most efficient, straight line. Seeing as how you can't force your arm out of its socket, the hand is above the position it would be in for a "Classic" extension. The slight elevation will then actually pull the tip back just a little bit if you were to switch between the two positions after completion. The only reason the "S-Class" extension works with so much distance in your example is because you lean forward a lot more, which you shouldn't be doing because it makes it more difficult to move to the right parry with the right angle, or to recover if you happen to be lunging. Basically, you're just making your opponents riposte easier to pull off. The other problem is with the benefit you claim it had with dealing with ripostes. First of all, it's hard to believe that at that distance such a slight difference could actually lead to better parries. A windshield-wiper motion may be predictable, but it's effective. Typically, in that close of distance, the defending fencer won't have the time or space to worry about which counterparry is about to be used and try to use a feint. If it did happen, most likely the feint with the riposte is pre-planned, and if that's the case, no amount of clever positioning will help. Besides, just because something is predictable doesn't mean it will never work. Yes, you should be unpredictable, but I know a guy (saber) who attacks my low-line flank all the time, and I still have trouble parrying it. I know it's coming, but it's still effective, and I know for a fact that I'm not the only one. Honestly, I think you're looking too much into such little motions and trying to come up with theories that are either too small and detail-oriented to make a difference, or they're just not true. This is kind of like when refs are taught to not rely too much on video replay and slow-motion, because then they can start overanalyzing things that in real speed, no fencer will be able to actually control. But hey, it's a free country. You do you. Just maybe think if your theories are worth the consideration before posting them
@RandomThoughts it definitely is getting eliminated, but it’s such a small change it’ll be a while until it’s gone though Full disclosure, never taught kids, only college students. But I’ve seen fencers who started as kids, and I can usually tell whether they started with pistol or French. It’s hard to define, but their actions seemed a bit broader while relying more on the wrist. This is obviously something they’ll grow out of and have more efficient movement and speed, but seeing foilists who started on pistol vs foilists who started on French and then moved to pistol, I always got the impression that foilists who started on French first learned more subtle finger manipulation noticeably faster than foilists who started with pistol. Sure, kids have to be entertained for them to keep doing it, but I still think starting with French is better. Although I have heard of some masters having new students go a whole year with just conditioning and footwork, that always seemed a bit much to me
Okay I have a genuine question for sombody who actually knows about fencing. There's a fantasy game i play, where one of the weapons is a type of thrusting sword, and it's special move is a series of rapid forward thrusts that ends with a larger one. (it's called Ricard's Lunge and Press) I just wondered if it was a kind of fantasy adaptation of a real fencing technique, or if it was just a totally made up one, as i know that some games actually take certain real life swordplay techniques, and give them a kind of fantasy twist. I don't know any fencers, but i'm genuinely curious if (the lunge and press) is similiar in any way to any kind of real technique, or if it's just completely made up. (you can view the move on youtube, the game is Dark Souls 3, and it's 'Ricard's Lunge and Press')
Ross Burnett hey so a few things. 1.) awesome game 2.) this move looks more like a historical European martial arts (HEMA) type move. I recommend looking up some HEMA clips on TH-cam. 3.) that being said, the beauty of fencing is that any move CAN be a good move if it’s used properly. This type of lunge looks a little “heavy” so I’m not sure it’d be too useful in a fencing match where the name of the game is mobility, but with the right set up and timing you might be able to catch someone with it. We made a video on what makes a move “good” if you’d like to check that out.
Ross Burnett hope that answers your question. Tl;dr doesn’t look like any fencing that I’m familiar with but they may have drawn inspiration from HEMA or other forms of sword-based martial arts
Thanks, i'll have a look! Looking at it, the stance at the beggining of the move looks like a part of a genuine technique, to line the blade up properly
So as a Classical Fencer I can stay the say it looks like hes using a Tuck, i.e. a thrust centric long sword, and using the rapid thrusts common in video game depictions of Rapier/Small sword, which I've heard called Bota Stoccata and Redoublement Parade, eschewing Defence for fast thrusting offense. It's not very traditonal but what's interesting is he uses a passe avant, a classical style alternative to the Advance for quick covering of ground while still being viable for other opponents. Andre Liancour has a lot of that, along with really nice volting theory and an interesting form of Small sword Halfswording, provided you can either speak French or find a translation. I also recommend Angelo for smallsword speed similar to this and diGrassi for Rapier, as his form is much more power centric than say Capoferro.
Why not just do a lunge? Or a compound attack from that distance? It just looks like he’s opening his target and leaning off balance so it’s harder to retreat if needed🤔
Tom Bradley this whole video assumes just extension distance. You could lunge to hit the target but that’d be using unnecessary motion. We’re not saying it’s “bad” to lunge here. Ideally you can hit in multiple ways from multiple distances. If you’re doing a lunge or step lunge every single time you run the risk of being predictable.
Tom Bradley to add to that: let’s say you have something on a shelf. If you can just reach it then great! Grab it. If you need to use a stool to reach it then you’ll need to use a stool. If you can just reach, why use the stool? The stool is the lunge in this analogy.
I subconsciously avoid the ‘s-class’ extension for classical hits always. More reliable but yeah my club has a lot of high level fencers and we try to avoid that too much (in a comp and you have no choice then yeah go for it). I never knew it had a name but I find it easy to deal with. COVID 19 has made me miss fencing so much. Foot drills is not as fun as actually fencing :(
Hi Otaku, We're not sure what you mean. It sounds like you're saying "there is a time and place for each," which we completely agree with! Also, please keep in mind that people name actions just so they're easier to remember. Many styles teach the extensions in the S-class manner, we simply want people to consider how extensions can differ based on the trajectory the tip travels in. Another example: the "hammerfoot" lunge we mention in our other videos is classically known as the "Patinando" lunge. We strongly encourage you to check out as many fencing resources as possible, some of which have overlapping lingo (coach Maestro Ziemowit Wojciechowski, for instance, uses terms like "critical distance," which you can read all about in his book: This is Fencing - www.amazon.com/This-Fencing-Advanced-Performance-Principles/dp/1785005952). Some of our other favorite resources include ZFW's Instagram account (@zfwfencing), Los Angeles International Fencing Center's Instagram (@lafencing), Projectfencing.com, Dynamo Fencing (dynamofencing), and Race Imboden's platform - EnGrd (theengrd.com/products/engrdplus). Let us know which is your favorite!
Timing is crucial for this technique but sticking to the basics will probably be better that always relying on this as if you show this to a beginner they might do supermanning where they try to lean and touch but can’t reach rather than adjusting footwork slightly to hit or maybe flèche. It’s more of a stylistic thing than anything but in my club there’s a few people who do it when the distance conditions are set and they are needing that hit. You train in the USA right? I know they use different terms to the uk a lot of the time. I met a guy who called flèche a flash attack who was an American. Subbed btw great channel with a very low sub count
OtakuLeveledUp we coach at Dynamo in Vancouver, but have trained in LA, under Misha Itkin (Nick Itkin’s coach), in NYC, under Simon Gershon (Miles Chamley-Watson’s coach), buckie leech (nzinga prescod ), yuri German (USA men’s sabre), Alex Martin and Sean McClain (fencers club), Alex Kuznetsov and Julien Camus (club touché and team canada), and in the UK under Jakob Laszlo (we are both Durham University alumni) We love your term “super-manning” we (think we) know exactly what you mean. If you’d ever like to chat or discuss fencing theory shoot us an email :)
"S-class"? Sounds more like BS class. What are you selling here? That an extension is finished with help from the body? So what? The hand finishes high except when it doesn't. This is because it makes action on your blade that much harder while in preparation, not for any reasons of reach. I doubt this logic is much different in modern foil. Variations in angulation exist among various maître d'armes. Competition is the only forge. Sometimes you hit with angulation, sometimes you don't. A beginner watching these videos might think there's something to this. What they should do instead is continue to work at a fixed distance, without involving the torso in the extension, and put their TH-cam time into tactical footwork drills.
Neal Durando the rationale behind the angulation that we’re talking about is to avoid this th-cam.com/video/5IV920F5S2A/w-d-xo.html. If you skip to 7:30 you’ll see a crystal clear example of a “punching” hit. The fencer on the right sets everything up perfectly and only misses because he angled the hit incorrectly. This happens at all levels of fencing. Footwork is extremely important and we can’t argue with you there. It’s extremely important to be able to move properly, but it’s just as important to be able to actually land your shots.
When you teach yourself to lean forward like that, you will also do this in the lunge. The problem you will run into is that when parried you are no longer in a position to counter-parry the riposte and you are all the way open for a riposte on the back. “Octave riposte sur le dos” is a classical parry riposte for an attack the way you make it.
Balance and being ready for counteractions is as important to the execution of the attack as every other bit of it. If you need greater reach, just keep your torso upright and lunge, maintaining control over the situation. You never want to lose control without knowing that you can swiftly regain it, meaning you were never really out of control at all.
Nicely done!
Okay, some of this added some insight into extensions and accuracy, but it feels like the whole this was a little over complicated. Sure, hitting with the hand higher than the point does help with not missing over the shoulder, but it does not change the distance at which you can hit. In the video there is a clear lean, which is only needed because you're out of distance. It is helpful to see some theory and thought behind better extension practices, but to claim that this method makes you able to hit from farther away is a stretch (pun intended).
It looked like from the “bad distance,” the S-Class extension leans forward whereas the classic extension does not. Does that mean you’re not allowed to lean when you do classic extensions? (Relatively new to fencing so I don’t understand a lot of the terms and details on what I am and not allowed to do)
Thales Qi-Scott this is a really good question. The s-class extension does have a lean, however it comes as part of the hit. Typically when people learn the classical fencing lunge they are taught to extend their arm, THEN lunge. This of course varies from club to club but it’s a common teaching technique to emphasize arm first. Some clubs will have you smooth out the motion so that it eventually becomes a single tempo lunge, while others really emphasize the extension then the legs. Why I bring this up is that the lean you get with a classical extension is different. We’ll try to cover this briefly in our next video, but if you can imagine that your arm is locked at shoulder level (doesn’t raise up like in the s class hit) then the only way you can reach further is to lean drastically which gets rid of the benefit of balance that we talked about. Additionally, fencing is freedom. If you can find a way to make something work you totally can do it! Some ideas might be more viable than others, but as long as you’re not breaking any rules you can be creative and do whatever you can think of. Everybody develops their own way of hitting, in our philosophy the ideal fenced can use any and all striking techniques from all school of thought to expand their toolbox.
The 'S-Class' extension looks suspiciously like the extension I learned from my 'classical' French coach... ;)
because it is. I was told that a lot of foil instructors who were either classical or had started teaching a lot time ago and never updated usually raised their arms because when it was all dry, raising the hand at the end of the extension helped signal to the ref that the attack arrived
I was also told it was to cut off the high line against an attack like a mandritto.
in classical hit you also should aim with the fingers/wrist though. If you are overshoting your hits, it means you are not aiming - you should always have your tip aimed at the target area
GdzieJestNemo completely agree. Our next video is gonna cover this subject. We’re going to be talking about angles and the differences between both hits. Again not saying one is better or worse than the other. They’re different tools for different purposes.
Hi, could you make a video about the different grips and their pros and cons?
Just shot the clip should be up by tomorrow :)
is the person in the video eli schneckel?
The take away is that the hand should finish above the tip? Excellent video. Thanks.
Thanks Ben! Yes and no. While we believe the hand should finish above the tip and past the shoulder, the takeaway is *why* it finishes that way. It's a reaching motion, as if someone is pulling your hand forward, rather than actively lifting your hand upwards (which usually results in people lifting their guard above their head).
yeah, I don't really agree with this. I used to always extend the "S-Class" way, whatever that means, from my first coach. My second coach (who was definitely better) said the raised hand at the end of a lunge was a habit formed from when foil was all dry, because it made it easier for the ref to tell that an attack just arrived.
The thing is, your trig doesn't make sense. If your hand is a certain distance from your opponent, then the "Classic" extension is meant to travel that distance to its maximum, making sure your range is as far as possible (in this example I'm disregarding the additional distance from a lunge). The "S-Class" extension places the hand above that line, meaning that now there is a separate angle from the most efficient, straight line. Seeing as how you can't force your arm out of its socket, the hand is above the position it would be in for a "Classic" extension. The slight elevation will then actually pull the tip back just a little bit if you were to switch between the two positions after completion. The only reason the "S-Class" extension works with so much distance in your example is because you lean forward a lot more, which you shouldn't be doing because it makes it more difficult to move to the right parry with the right angle, or to recover if you happen to be lunging. Basically, you're just making your opponents riposte easier to pull off.
The other problem is with the benefit you claim it had with dealing with ripostes. First of all, it's hard to believe that at that distance such a slight difference could actually lead to better parries. A windshield-wiper motion may be predictable, but it's effective. Typically, in that close of distance, the defending fencer won't have the time or space to worry about which counterparry is about to be used and try to use a feint. If it did happen, most likely the feint with the riposte is pre-planned, and if that's the case, no amount of clever positioning will help. Besides, just because something is predictable doesn't mean it will never work. Yes, you should be unpredictable, but I know a guy (saber) who attacks my low-line flank all the time, and I still have trouble parrying it. I know it's coming, but it's still effective, and I know for a fact that I'm not the only one.
Honestly, I think you're looking too much into such little motions and trying to come up with theories that are either too small and detail-oriented to make a difference, or they're just not true. This is kind of like when refs are taught to not rely too much on video replay and slow-motion, because then they can start overanalyzing things that in real speed, no fencer will be able to actually control.
But hey, it's a free country. You do you. Just maybe think if your theories are worth the consideration before posting them
@RandomThoughts it definitely is getting eliminated, but it’s such a small change it’ll be a while until it’s gone though
Full disclosure, never taught kids, only college students. But I’ve seen fencers who started as kids, and I can usually tell whether they started with pistol or French. It’s hard to define, but their actions seemed a bit broader while relying more on the wrist. This is obviously something they’ll grow out of and have more efficient movement and speed, but seeing foilists who started on pistol vs foilists who started on French and then moved to pistol, I always got the impression that foilists who started on French first learned more subtle finger manipulation noticeably faster than foilists who started with pistol. Sure, kids have to be entertained for them to keep doing it, but I still think starting with French is better. Although I have heard of some masters having new students go a whole year with just conditioning and footwork, that always seemed a bit much to me
Okay I have a genuine question for sombody who actually knows about fencing.
There's a fantasy game i play, where one of the weapons is a type of thrusting sword, and it's special move is a series of rapid forward thrusts that ends with a larger one.
(it's called Ricard's Lunge and Press)
I just wondered if it was a kind of fantasy adaptation of a real fencing technique, or if it was just a totally made up one, as i know that some games actually take certain real life swordplay techniques, and give them a kind of fantasy twist.
I don't know any fencers, but i'm genuinely curious if (the lunge and press) is similiar in any way to any kind of real technique, or if it's just completely made up.
(you can view the move on youtube, the game is Dark Souls 3, and it's 'Ricard's Lunge and Press')
Ross Burnett hey so a few things.
1.) awesome game
2.) this move looks more like a historical European martial arts (HEMA) type move. I recommend looking up some HEMA clips on TH-cam.
3.) that being said, the beauty of fencing is that any move CAN be a good move if it’s used properly. This type of lunge looks a little “heavy” so I’m not sure it’d be too useful in a fencing match where the name of the game is mobility, but with the right set up and timing you might be able to catch someone with it. We made a video on what makes a move “good” if you’d like to check that out.
Ross Burnett hope that answers your question. Tl;dr doesn’t look like any fencing that I’m familiar with but they may have drawn inspiration from HEMA or other forms of sword-based martial arts
Thanks, i'll have a look! Looking at it, the stance at the beggining of the move looks like a part of a genuine technique, to line the blade up properly
So as a Classical Fencer I can stay the say it looks like hes using a Tuck, i.e. a thrust centric long sword, and using the rapid thrusts common in video game depictions of Rapier/Small sword, which I've heard called Bota Stoccata and Redoublement Parade, eschewing Defence for fast thrusting offense. It's not very traditonal but what's interesting is he uses a passe avant, a classical style alternative to the Advance for quick covering of ground while still being viable for other opponents. Andre Liancour has a lot of that, along with really nice volting theory and an interesting form of Small sword Halfswording, provided you can either speak French or find a translation. I also recommend Angelo for smallsword speed similar to this and diGrassi for Rapier, as his form is much more power centric than say Capoferro.
Why not just do a lunge? Or a compound attack from that distance? It just looks like he’s opening his target and leaning off balance so it’s harder to retreat if needed🤔
Tom Bradley this whole video assumes just extension distance. You could lunge to hit the target but that’d be using unnecessary motion. We’re not saying it’s “bad” to lunge here. Ideally you can hit in multiple ways from multiple distances. If you’re doing a lunge or step lunge every single time you run the risk of being predictable.
Tom Bradley to add to that: let’s say you have something on a shelf. If you can just reach it then great! Grab it. If you need to use a stool to reach it then you’ll need to use a stool. If you can just reach, why use the stool? The stool is the lunge in this analogy.
I subconsciously avoid the ‘s-class’ extension for classical hits always. More reliable but yeah my club has a lot of high level fencers and we try to avoid that too much (in a comp and you have no choice then yeah go for it). I never knew it had a name but I find it easy to deal with. COVID 19 has made me miss fencing so much. Foot drills is not as fun as actually fencing :(
Hi Otaku,
We're not sure what you mean. It sounds like you're saying "there is a time and place for each," which we completely agree with! Also, please keep in mind that people name actions just so they're easier to remember. Many styles teach the extensions in the S-class manner, we simply want people to consider how extensions can differ based on the trajectory the tip travels in. Another example: the "hammerfoot" lunge we mention in our other videos is classically known as the "Patinando" lunge.
We strongly encourage you to check out as many fencing resources as possible, some of which have overlapping lingo (coach Maestro Ziemowit Wojciechowski, for instance, uses terms like "critical distance," which you can read all about in his book: This is Fencing - www.amazon.com/This-Fencing-Advanced-Performance-Principles/dp/1785005952).
Some of our other favorite resources include ZFW's Instagram account (@zfwfencing), Los Angeles International Fencing Center's Instagram (@lafencing), Projectfencing.com, Dynamo Fencing (dynamofencing), and Race Imboden's platform - EnGrd (theengrd.com/products/engrdplus). Let us know which is your favorite!
Timing is crucial for this technique but sticking to the basics will probably be better that always relying on this as if you show this to a beginner they might do supermanning where they try to lean and touch but can’t reach rather than adjusting footwork slightly to hit or maybe flèche. It’s more of a stylistic thing than anything but in my club there’s a few people who do it when the distance conditions are set and they are needing that hit. You train in the USA right? I know they use different terms to the uk a lot of the time. I met a guy who called flèche a flash attack who was an American.
Subbed btw great channel with a very low sub count
OtakuLeveledUp we coach at Dynamo in Vancouver, but have trained in LA, under Misha Itkin (Nick Itkin’s coach), in NYC, under Simon Gershon (Miles Chamley-Watson’s coach), buckie leech (nzinga prescod ), yuri German (USA men’s sabre), Alex Martin and Sean McClain (fencers club), Alex Kuznetsov and Julien Camus (club touché and team canada), and in the UK under Jakob Laszlo (we are both Durham University alumni)
We love your term “super-manning” we (think we) know exactly what you mean.
If you’d ever like to chat or discuss fencing theory shoot us an email :)
this is why point control is a lost art. also why no one likes to watch fencing except fencers.
"S-class"? Sounds more like BS class. What are you selling here? That an extension is finished with help from the body? So what? The hand finishes high except when it doesn't. This is because it makes action on your blade that much harder while in preparation, not for any reasons of reach. I doubt this logic is much different in modern foil. Variations in angulation exist among various maître d'armes. Competition is the only forge. Sometimes you hit with angulation, sometimes you don't. A beginner watching these videos might think there's something to this. What they should do instead is continue to work at a fixed distance, without involving the torso in the extension, and put their TH-cam time into tactical footwork drills.
Neal Durando the rationale behind the angulation that we’re talking about is to avoid this th-cam.com/video/5IV920F5S2A/w-d-xo.html. If you skip to 7:30 you’ll see a crystal clear example of a “punching” hit. The fencer on the right sets everything up perfectly and only misses because he angled the hit incorrectly. This happens at all levels of fencing. Footwork is extremely important and we can’t argue with you there. It’s extremely important to be able to move properly, but it’s just as important to be able to actually land your shots.