As someone who sponges up behind the scenes minutiae, this series has been a treasure trove. Also, does anyone recall the Marvel/Fantagraphics debacle from back in ‘82 when Comics Journal 77 published an article about Amazing Spider-Man 239 being published backwards as a gimmick for some Spidey Mirror Marvel was promoting, and when the mirror was discontinued Marvel tried to cover up by saying the backward issue was an April Fools joke and that TCJ was publishing false material? That shit was wild, and TCJ published a panel with the Marvel creatives and editors blatantly neglecting the original article to make TCJ look like idiots.
This is what happens when powerful or at least egoistic people are questioned by professional lawyers. What I don't understand is what the lawyers questioning Shooter were trying to accomplish with his testimony.
Great follow up to the Gaiman Mac videos, favourite series you guys have done, all I can think of now is the Dave Gibbons story once he finished Watchmen, “What are you going to do next?”
It wasnt just the fact that the insult was actually a compliment. It's that others in the industry started to view him as "that crazy guy" and it was costing him work because he wasn't viewed as marketable. Shooter said he wouldn't even give him work because of his image even though he knows Fleischer as a good guy. It's honestly all pretty fucked up. Anyone know how many story's he was able to write after all this? It's so crazy. It's like Marv Wolfman and Len Wein and them didnt even read the interview since Ellison was actually complimenting Fleischer. It really taints me on the group of authors at that panel.
I think at least a summary of the jurors' reactions would be helpful. And I remember being particularly impressed by the intelligence of the summations by the lawyers for the defense and being repelled by the repetitive and shallow closing arguments of the plaintiff. The comparative quality of representation was everything: Fantagraphics and Ellison hired specialists and it looks like Fleisher just got a hired gun.
You guys need a ‘needle ripped from record’ sound effect for some of this stuff. :) Also, it was pretty soon after this that Groth and Ellison had a falling out themselves, tho I can’t recall why, or if there was a specific incident?
Thanks for doing these. I’m thoroughly enjoying this 1940’s-like radio theater. 👏 I still don’t need an “expert witness” to tell me that Ellison slandered Fleisher. Ellison also slandered Don Heck, which Ellison later apologize for and admitted he meant a different artist. Still, no one reads the retraction or correction buried in the article.
The irony that this history just makes us all wants to read more fleisher! im unfamiliar with ALOT of his work, and i just did a quick look at his wiki and it does make me feel better knowing that he went on to pursue a career in anthropology. It is sad as all hell that his passion in comics was torpedoed, but at least he found a new path forward.
So cowardly and hypocritical for guys like Marv Wolfman and Len Wein to get all self righteous about Michael Fleisher and throw him under the bus like that. It’s gotta be hard enough landing jobs, but then for people in your line of work to trash talk you because of what sounds like groupthink and an attempt to be in the good graces of Harlan Ellison is more understandable why Fleisher sued than Ellison’s comments.
I love these exercises in theater for the mind/radio show throwbacks. You need one of those old 1930's Warner Bros sound effects cats on a another mic behind a curtain, or the long box shelf. Anyway, great stuff gentlemen.
It’s kind of hilarious how wishy-washy Shooter’s answers have to be so that he can avoid both perjuring himself and revealing that his “expert testimony” is totally biased against TCJ.
Maybe the sleeper subtext here is wondering exactly how much Harlan Ellison was liked or disliked in the industry? I knew someone who brought him in to a comic convention and catered to him and he was a troublesome diva, apparently. You can find Ellison on this platform, unironically claiming to have invented the idea of a "time traveling soldier" and suggesting he get co-credit for Terminator. I would never wanted to be anywhere near the guy just for that alone. If you breathed in his presence, he might claim you stole his ideas. That seems like a good way to lose friends.
He got a film credit for Terminator (and a big cash payoff), based on an examination of two Outer Limits episodes he wrote, and won a lawsuit with Paramount over Future Cop for similar reasons on another Ellison story, "Brillo." I'm sure his suit against Warren for stealing "A Boy and his Dog" helped destroy the publisher. But you're right, he was an asshole.
Well first his co-writing credit was due to James Cameron giving an interview were he claimed he ripped of "some old outer-limits episode" Ellison got wind of this and the rest was history. I said it before on another of these video's but Ellison seems like that kid in school who ingratiates himself to the popular kids and uses that shine to push around the dorks with impunity.
The Spectre comics were great. I really enjoyed them a lot. I bought his book in the eighties but, to tell you the truth, I never finished it. Harlan Ellison was always full of himself. Very big ego with a big mouth to match. I remember his movie reviews. They were always insulting.
Fascinating stuff. I really hope you guys do a deep dive into Michael Fleischer's, SPECTRE comics. Stay awesome!
I hope so as well.
As someone who sponges up behind the scenes minutiae, this series has been a treasure trove.
Also, does anyone recall the Marvel/Fantagraphics debacle from back in ‘82 when Comics Journal 77 published an article about Amazing Spider-Man 239 being published backwards as a gimmick for some Spidey Mirror Marvel was promoting, and when the mirror was discontinued Marvel tried to cover up by saying the backward issue was an April Fools joke and that TCJ was publishing false material? That shit was wild, and TCJ published a panel with the Marvel creatives and editors blatantly neglecting the original article to make TCJ look like idiots.
This is what happens when powerful or at least egoistic people are questioned by professional lawyers. What I don't understand is what the lawyers questioning Shooter were trying to accomplish with his testimony.
Great follow up to the Gaiman Mac videos, favourite series you guys have done, all I can think of now is the Dave Gibbons story once he finished Watchmen, “What are you going to do next?”
It wasnt just the fact that the insult was actually a compliment. It's that others in the industry started to view him as "that crazy guy" and it was costing him work because he wasn't viewed as marketable. Shooter said he wouldn't even give him work because of his image even though he knows Fleischer as a good guy. It's honestly all pretty fucked up. Anyone know how many story's he was able to write after all this?
It's so crazy. It's like Marv Wolfman and Len Wein and them didnt even read the interview since Ellison was actually complimenting Fleischer. It really taints me on the group of authors at that panel.
not much, I think he did some work for 2000ad then retired from comics.
This is perfect for me to listen to while I’m at work. Crazy entertaining guys keep em coming makes my hard day so much better.
The term "HEAVY BREATHERS" is stuck in my head LOL
Ground breaking stuff. We got to think this happened between 35 to 40 years ago.
Waiting for the "In The Pack" limited edition T-Shirt...
He wrote reboots for rogue trooper and harlem heroes at 2000ad! They went down like a lead balloon
I think at least a summary of the jurors' reactions would be helpful. And I remember being particularly impressed by the intelligence of the summations by the lawyers for the defense and being repelled by the repetitive and shallow closing arguments of the plaintiff. The comparative quality of representation was everything: Fantagraphics and Ellison hired specialists and it looks like Fleisher just got a hired gun.
yeah the defense attorney is kind of ripping shooter apart.
You guys need a ‘needle ripped from record’ sound effect for some of this stuff. :) Also, it was pretty soon after this that Groth and Ellison had a falling out themselves, tho I can’t recall why, or if there was a specific incident?
I thought it was due to this lawsuit
Thanks for doing these. I’m thoroughly enjoying this 1940’s-like radio theater. 👏 I still don’t need an “expert witness” to tell me that Ellison slandered Fleisher. Ellison also slandered Don Heck, which Ellison later apologize for and admitted he meant a different artist. Still, no one reads the retraction or correction buried in the article.
The irony that this history just makes us all wants to read more fleisher! im unfamiliar with ALOT of his work, and i just did a quick look at his wiki and it does make me feel better knowing that he went on to pursue a career in anthropology. It is sad as all hell that his passion in comics was torpedoed, but at least he found a new path forward.
So cowardly and hypocritical for guys like Marv Wolfman and Len Wein to get all self righteous about Michael Fleisher and throw him under the bus like that. It’s gotta be hard enough landing jobs, but then for people in your line of work to trash talk you because of what sounds like groupthink and an attempt to be in the good graces of Harlan Ellison is more understandable why Fleisher sued than Ellison’s comments.
All of the commentators here should probably be in Folsom.
How does one become a "Hot Property" in "The Pack" Kayfabe..?
I could see “Leading the pack” on a t-shirt. Though it might come off a little cringe with no context…
Fleischers savage sword issues were ace.
I love these exercises in theater for the mind/radio show throwbacks. You need one of those old 1930's Warner Bros sound effects cats on a another mic behind a curtain, or the long box shelf.
Anyway, great stuff gentlemen.
It’s kind of hilarious how wishy-washy Shooter’s answers have to be so that he can avoid both perjuring himself and revealing that his “expert testimony” is totally biased against TCJ.
This is wild af.
Maybe the sleeper subtext here is wondering exactly how much Harlan Ellison was liked or disliked in the industry? I knew someone who brought him in to a comic convention and catered to him and he was a troublesome diva, apparently. You can find Ellison on this platform, unironically claiming to have invented the idea of a "time traveling soldier" and suggesting he get co-credit for Terminator. I would never wanted to be anywhere near the guy just for that alone. If you breathed in his presence, he might claim you stole his ideas. That seems like a good way to lose friends.
He got a film credit for Terminator (and a big cash payoff), based on an examination of two Outer Limits episodes he wrote, and won a lawsuit with Paramount over Future Cop for similar reasons on another Ellison story, "Brillo." I'm sure his suit against Warren for stealing "A Boy and his Dog" helped destroy the publisher.
But you're right, he was an asshole.
Well first his co-writing credit was due to James Cameron giving an interview were he claimed he ripped of "some old outer-limits episode" Ellison got wind of this and the rest was history.
I said it before on another of these video's but Ellison seems like that kid in school who ingratiates himself to the popular kids and uses that shine to push around the dorks with impunity.
The Spectre comics were great. I really enjoyed them a lot. I bought his book in the eighties but, to tell you the truth, I never finished it. Harlan Ellison was always full of himself. Very big ego with a big mouth to match. I remember his movie reviews. They were always insulting.
Oh, and btw you boyz are having too much fun! ;)
Shooter seems...unbearable to deal with. To put it nicely.