>Pat: "So it's not a touch of death game." >Woolie: "I'm not going to say that because someone's going to find something." It'll probably be the Roa players.
Nah, if it's anything to go by history, it'll be the Miyako Players rotating between command grab, upkicks that HIT OVERHEAD, Meaty left-right mixups, and plain old standing low. I swear, if you see anyone wearing red and/or has a hint that they're Chinese, they are unga bunga braindead.
I like how you can tell Pat didn't see shit about this game, or the old Melty either, because the damage is not high in the game, especially not compared to strive
52 minutes of the boys talking about Melty? Yessir Edit: I walked into a Melty discussion expecting memes about drip and shielding and came out with a fucking psychology lecture/debate on why people ragequit. I love it.
It's funny how woolies description of shield and how it's like a 3rd strike parry you can hold that drains a meter is almost exactly how parrying is in sf6
I got the worst of both of those constantly in school where multiple teachers were like _"Oh you're definitely really smart... but we noticed you just don't apply yourself / aren't TRYING so we're lowering your Grades based on your EFFORT, not your performance so that you'll Try harder and reach what we think your real potential is"_
If you're on the smart camp there's a valley there but it only lasts until you're in a position where working hard doesn't matter, and you can play to your strengths
Fuck seeing win/lose ratios. Seeing win/lose ratio makes me go crazy, because it feels like a Stan I can never get rid of no matter how good I get. I like GG;ST because the floor system exclusively rewards me for getting better at the game. Ratio puts pressure on me to win from the get go, something that is a bad lesson for getting into fighting games. That Ratio is my mind goblin.
I liked the floors initially but that feeling of going on a losing streak and getting thrown from floor 10 to 7 or 6 makes me want to tear my head off.
I agree. I don't mind people who want to see the win/lose ratio, but to me seeing my win percentage is usually never important enough in terms of helping me improve. It's discouraging more than anything. If you wanna show how good the opponent is, you can at least do it the way Strive and Tekken does it with your ranked score/level that tells you the opponent's been playing this character/game for a good time. Strive's level up is pretty arbitary, but it tends to FEEL rewarding in terms of showing progress. At least you dont lose points like in Tekken, but that's subjective.
Completely agree. Seeing that number/percentage feels like its telling everyone how good or bad I am before I even start a round. And maintaining it is stressful. Had a fifty percent with Red Arc at first, got hit with a losing streak, then dropped to forty percent. I had to get like 3 10 win streaks to get it back to fifty. It felt soul crushing when it shouldn't because number mind goblins.
Picked up DBFZ a few months ago, started out at 28% Winrate in ranked. It's up to 37% now, but it still bothers me when I see it - despite all the progression I've made.
it's ironically the best way of dealing with salty/toxic people. constantly stomp on them and rub their face in the proverbial dirt to the point where they just quit and never want to ever play the game ever again is arguably the most effective way but it's not the nicest way. which is really what most people want as a solution.
Honestly, an achievement that says something like "I have lost at least 5 matches over my career" is a pretty good way to weed out the exact kind of people you don't want to be in your matchmaking system.
Blitz the League has a bunch of dickhead achievements. There are others with odd values (like 6G or 14G) to really get the goblins going. Weak Sauce - 0G Lost to Arizona in game 1 of Campaign Mode O RLY? - 0G Lost by more than 24 pts in Campaign Mode Blind - 0G Threw 5+ interceptions in one game Offline or Online Solo or Co-op ROFL Waffle - 0G Lost 5 games in a row online Lollercoaster - 0G Fumble the ball 5 times in a game
it's worse than that. the way ranking was handled meant the lower your rank the more points somebody would lose if they lost to you, I went many rounds with a competitive Christie player called Awesmic and loss every match so I ended up with the F- ranking getting the achievement on accident. while it didn't initially bother me I soon learned that it made it absurdly difficult to find anymore matches.
I'm definitely one of those "I didn't know I was a rage quitter" guys. I didn't play any kind of competitive games for YEARS because my best friend growing up was the kid whose parents got him everything on launch day, so he was always better than everyone else at whatever the game du jour was, so I just stopped trying to beat him (and I was antisocial, so I didn't play games with a lot of other people). I didn't play a competitive game again until a couple of years ago, when Pat and Woolie got me into Apex Legends, and I discovered that all this time I had an inner shitlord, waiting for an opportunity to reveal himself. I've gotten better about it, but I've quit out of a lot of matches where my teammates could have brought me back, I've come VERY close to throwing my controller, and I've invented a few new slurs for races that don't exist swearing at my tv. I guess I still need to build up my tolerance.
They will literally just get an Overlay Plug-in! There's 3rd party programs and API aggregators for this exact thing in almost *every* _semi-competitive_ game I've ever played, especially shooters
Ratios deter the kinda player that just wants to jump in and learn a little bit each match. Each loss is a mini stamp on a permanent and public record and makes losing feel worse. Rage quitting to protect it is still some bitch shit though.
3:55 "There is a type of person that joins a team and immediately starts taking credit for things that existed before he joined" Yeah. They're called enneagram type 3s.
Yep, Woolie's right. I'm 30 now and I'm only just seeing my anger management issues. I just buried it all this time and exploded when I'm alone. You can go really far without dealing with it, but it'll eventually come out and get ya.
Or "Worrying about the number just make the number worse, so to improve the number i need to stop paying this much attention to it." Same shift, but theoretically a mindset that Might be easier for someone with that mindset to wrap their head around.
@@Azmodeus87 trust me, seeing yourself as less than decent while being actually good enough to probably take 1 round at evo pools makes a huge different to confidence and discipline. You just have to understand that ANYONE can beat you and that what your doing is playing your character to your best ability to avoid that, a lot of people forget that, get High rank or numbers and just assume they should be winning
@@CapcomSwagg I agree, But just see so many people saying they suck, when most objective analysis would say they're above par at worst. And that can negatively impact your confidence, long term, unless you keep that in mind.
@@CapcomSwagg Yeah, but i also see many people that doesn't get that you need to do the mental adjustment of " This means i'm bad only compared to some peers, i'm not Full on Bad at the game". And that's more the mindset i was trying to adapt the the principle too.
As embarrassing as it is, I'm not afraid to admit I was one of those people that would absolutely lose their shit over a game for a distressingly long time. Honestly don't know how the rest of my family didn't strangle me at some points. For me personally it wasn't even my K/D ratio or win rate or whatever. It was the fact that I knew I was good at games and I shouldn't be losing like this - didn't matter whether it was on or offline. Still, eventually I learnt to stop playing if I was getting too frustrated and (especially for multiplayer) accept I'm not gonna be good at every game all the time.
that means that others are better than you, ,i dont know why people cant understand this. It doesnt matter how good you are at anything, there will always be someone better
I was kinda like this as a kid too. I wouldn't rage but I would quietly seethe because "I'm good at games! Why am I losing?!" Took some growing up to realise that whatever I'm good at, thousands of people are better and that's fine. Play games to have fun improving with other people and appreciate the slow growth instead of being upset that I'm not already better than everyone
40:00 Me being the best at math all throughout elementary&middle school. Come high school algebra I couldn't wrap my head around it and it destroyed me. Now math continues to haunt me a decade later.
About the thing being told you're smart vs hard working. Especially when you're a kid. They tell you you're smart and you're wondering what's going on because you're not putting in any effort. Then 2 dots make a line and you start thinking that maybe you really are smart and that's why there's no need to study. Once reality kicks in there's 2 problems. 1. You've been mislead by all the people that told you were smart. 2. You have no idea what it means to study and how to do it. You stack 2 great debuffs. Misleading/Deception and unexpected lack of preparation. And boy do those debuffs suck
As a person that is into fighting games, hearing people talk about competitive FPS or MOBA in-depth also feels like listening to another language. We can stop pretending this is a genre problem.
@@BlackHeart1216 look up the Fighting Game Glossary by Core-A Gaming. I promise you will be using all those terms if you ever get into a FG seriously, it gets very tiring to describe every concept literally when they can be pretty complex. Like imagine typing out "The moves i do to cover my opponent as they rise up from a knocked down state, so that i can continue offensive pressure" instead of just saying OKI
removing stats isn't actually going to fix the problems you're talking about. the people who are like that are usually the kinda of people who feel like they HAVE to win, they NEED to be the best and that the game is only fun if THEY win. i know a guy like this in MTG where he'll just flat out scoop over the pettiest shit.
I was a victim of 'you're so smart.' I was smart enough to discover that if I just stopped doing homework in junior high, I would still get straight Bs at worst in every subject. Then I went to high school and not only did I not know how to study, I didn't know how to do work period, or manage a schedule. I still don't, to be totally honest, and I'm 28 for chrissakes. Dropped out of high school at 16 through a government-sponsored program where they would pay for my GED test, as a no-child-left-behind initiative thing. Results came back on the test and I was in the top 2% of test takers or some shit, and everyone around me was STILL saying 'gee, you're so smart' because of it, including the woman working for the program that proctored the test. 2% is 1 in 50, it's at least upgraded from smartest kid in the class to smartest kid in your class plus the next class over.
I am also a "Smart" person with little to no work ethic. I'm 22 now but the reason I was able to finish high school and go to college because 1. Everyone else in my family dropped out and I was the last hope 2. I am more terrified of actually working than doing school.
I agree that everyone NEEDS to be humbled at least once in their childhood. Whether it's in a video game, martial arts training, or something else. That being said the parents/family needs to be able to make sure they learned the right lesson from it which probably easier said than done.
I'm definitely one of those guys who cares about K/D too much lol. Never enough to rage quit a game, or to ignore an objective in favor of maintaining a positive score. But I definitely remember feeling goddamn miserable when playing Undernight online and seeing the L tick up after every single fight while the W stayed stagnant. Because I didnt feel like I was improving, I just felt free. And honestly, I think there is no solution where both sides win. I think you'd have to hide that information forever altogether and not let people know and forgo those who WANT to know, otherwise it doesnt matter how many menus you hide it behind, the ratio exists and it will torment those people.
Never was one to rage quit matches to preserve the ratio, but I've always been hesitant on matchmaking after a win because of preserving a positive ratio despite being new. Dbfz's ability to hide your own BP and win/loss ratio was the difference between winning 1 set and calling it a session vs playing the rest of the day. I tell myself not to care, but I see that number and the pressure skyrockets like I'm taking an exam I never studied for. Call me a coward, but I do wish this stuff was hidden by default, but you can dig to find your records if you care about that stuff. Strive's lack of ranked made it the most comfortable game for me to keep on playing because I feel like I'm just playing Guilty Gear as opposed to some numbers game with grades to show your level. Stuck at floor 10, it doesn't feel like I'm bronze or gold or whatever, it just feel like I'm not Celestial level.
I agree. I don't mind people who want to see the win/lose ratio, but to me seeing my win percentage is usually never important enough in terms of helping me improve. It's discouraging more than anything. If you wanna show how good the opponent is, you can at least do it the way Strive and Tekken does it with your ranked score/level that tells you the opponent's been playing this character/game for a good time. Strive's level up is pretty arbitary, but it tends to FEEL rewarding in terms of showing progress.
Just curious, and i'm being very sincere here: Do you think you would care less, if less of the FG discourse was about high end competition? I'm asking this, since that's the thing that i hear a lot of beginner to intermediate discussion about (partly because that's about where i am). Like, say, less of the "[Rank] doesn't mean anything" vs. more "Does [Rank] reflect the skill level well?"
@@Azmodeus87 I dont fully grasp the question, but I do genuinly feel the FGC needs more casual oriented content that doesnt focus too much on just getting better for the sake of playing the game better. Im talking animations, music, presentation, artstyle, design, story, lore, etc. Stuff that casual fans can discuss and take part in without needing to understand the game at a high level, because that's only so much of the fanbase and crowd you're involving.
@@leithaziz2716 You answered it well, but just for clarity: My question was mainly, do you think you would be more relaxed about the W/L ratio, if the general FG discourse was less about what it takes to make Top 8?
@@Azmodeus87 I dont think people care about reaching the top 10 of leaderboards or anything. It's mostly wanting to reach the highest in-game rank and not feeling like you're constantly losing and going backwards in progress. (like getting kicked off of a floor or losing a rank)
Smash ultimate handled stats and records in a way that more games should follow. It has very in depth and specific stats broken up by fighter, player behavior, and game mode, but it's deep enough in the options menu that you actively have to search for what you want. It's there as an option, but you can completely ignore it if you don't care and not miss out on any substantial content.
Can’t say I’ve ever ragequit myself but oh boy I’ve been on the other end. Especially in Fighterz. Whenever you introduced someone to TOD you expected to see that familiar message on screen, gave me an almost hedonistic pleasure, *BIG dopamine*
45:15 That explains why my friends who play Genshin Impact have issues with Twitter or Reddit posts about Genshin. The game has conditioned them into believing that some characters or weapons are terrible while others just want to have fun. Plus one is Whale and other one is a F2P so that rivalry is always fun to hear.
15:20 or you can play the cultured way by putting on headphones, playing "Find You One Way" on repeat. and spamming DP whenever your attack it blocked.
I am absolutely one of those ratio cowards. I only ever played one game of Ranked League of Legends and - after a nerve-wracking, sweaty 40 minutes - resolved to never do that again and retire on a 100% Ranked win rate. Of course, I didn't actually have *fun* playing Ranked, but this and one other incident (in which I realized my personal performance in-game was way more important than the result of the match, even to its detriment) is why I stopped playing team and/or competitive games. Some people just aren't made for PvP, and I'm one of them.
the reason why I didn't develop gamer rage is because as a kid I never won at anything I wasn't even good enough to finish single player games, not until I was literally an adult there wasn't even a micron of a chance for me to become a rage-quitter
been a while since a near ~1 hour "clip", nice. I've finally truly gotten into fighting games with MBTL and honestly I've been having a blast. I do wish that winrate can be hidden though. And let people have multiple simultaneous matches in custom rooms instead of one at a time.
"Just give me a match! I want to fight!" The main problem I had was I don't know what I was doing and didn't do tutorials. As soon as I did tutorials I got better. And felt terrible about the times I felt cheated cause fuck, it was literally me not knowing how to play. These people probably also didn't do tutorials and try and learn by Trial By Fire. Though weirdly in Melty Blood: Actress Again I didn't feel as bad because... They had years on me playing this game compared to my time playing SFV and getting mad in shit tier. I was just glad they would accept to play a match for a newbie like me and kind of felt bad playing them a bunch cause I was the only one they were connecting to.
don't feel bad about that. If people still accept the rematch you're not wasting their time. And most of the time, any players do learn from fighting anyone, even people who's not at their level yet.
@@Keezawea I'm dead serious about my admiration for Yoshinori Ono, who's visionary leadership brought forth the most innovative netcode solution known to man and launched the rollback revolution! And who could forget his genius decision to take a chance on a studio that never made a videogame before to make SFV resulting in a depleted budget and creating an amazing partnership with Sony to get the game out!
It's amazing how in the span of three months he not only single-handedly made Type Lumina, but was so humble he agreed to completely erase his name from the credits so everybody at French Bread could take credit for it instead.
As far as the zero-sum game players that have to lose eventually are better about losing, I've been in deep in tcgs for 20 years, playing at all levels of competition, and even working behind the scenes in their design. I can firmly attest that this is not the case. I think a lot of people at a more social level that have a single lgs with a Cheers-like atmosphere where they hang out with friends and tap some lands, those people can generally avoid tilt. You still get a few bad eggs of course, but these things are social events. But when people have ever played for stakes, even if they aren't playing for stakes _right now,_ there's an intensity there that builds up, because you have an inherent desire to take credit for your own wins when they happen, but discredit losses as random, out of your control. And to be fair, to some extent, they're right. A bad player will lose with a good hand more often than a good player is capable of winning with a bad one, regardless of the specific game. I think what Woolie is describing with zero-sum games and learning to cope with loss, he means only games with a lack of random elements. I'm a seasoned veteran of this circuit, but I also have a background in design, and I've studied statistics at a college level before, so I can avoid these pitfalls that I see ensnaring those in my community so often. Players will talk up and exaggerate the skill ceiling of their game of choice, because they _want_ other people to agree the game is difficult, so their pp can get bigger when they win a game. Wins are all skill, and oh man how much skill it takes, they're so smart, but all losses are completely random and out of their control. I'm in a competitive team _right now_ for a tcg where about half of its members think this way exactly. I watch players who shall not be named overextend into an obvious setup I read a mile away, they get their ass blown out, then after the match go into the group chat baby raging about rng, it had to be exactly that setup, there's no way they could have known, nothing they could have done. And of course they'll just lash out more if you try to point out there WAS a different line they could have taken, because rage isn't about learning from mistakes, it's about vindication and blame-shifting. I find folks with this behavior pattern tend to gravitate toward spending time with people who will agree with them or support their claims of bullshittery, even when it's not the case, and this just encourages the behavior. I will add that the issue is, again, in some cases the player is legitimately correct and has some right to be upset. What you want in a game is for both players to have hands of comparable quality, so navigating these hands to determine a victor is a skill tester. When one player has options that are clearly just better than anything the other draws, the tcg experience is much worse. This issue is exacerbated in games that don't allow optional mulligans, like pokemon and yugioh, where you really have no control over the hand you're dealt. The baby rage dealing with loss issues are when players perceive their hand or their opponents as a different quality level than it actually is. Players have a tendency to gloss over or take for granted when the opponent has a bad deal, but focus on when they have bad deals, even if they're not actually that bad. So I guess the point is, babies will find ways to be babies, because even if the nature of the game forces you to lose on the regular, all they have to do is blame that loss on any factor other than their own skill. Johns truly are the root of all evil. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
I'll weigh in one this. Some people may not like to hear this and I may even get some hate, but oh well. Some people are unfortunate to be born to narcissistic parents. These types of parents demand perfection out of their children, and any kind of failure is seen as a threat to the parents' image and is met with punishment and shame. The child learns quickly that in order to be loved by their parents they have to never make mistakes and always win. Whenever these kids lose or fail at anything, it brings up those painful feelings of not being loved or accepted, and on top of those feelings, they also have to deal with their opponent/others talking shit and making fun of them. And yet, these kids are expected to bottle these feelings up. Eventually the powder keg explodes, and they become a "rage quitter". In order for these people to get over it, they need to learn to separate themselves from their parents and love themselves and their inner children. Some people need help doing this, and telling them "fuck off you're a bitch" does not help in the slightest. And, before anyone says it, I'm not claiming ALL rage quitters are these types of traumatized people. What I AM saying is that some of them are, and they need help, not ridicule. And yes, I was one of those kids who grew up with a narcissistic father who demanded I be perfect and be better than everyone at everything. I still struggle with my old, painful feelings, but I'm learning to be calm.
i’m cool with having a twenty percent win rate or whatever, but man, it’s sad to see everyone i get matched with has 80%+ wins oh and the match someone did quit on me, they had an awful ratio already and them quitting crashed my game
The way it works for the game I made (a card game) is that the game does record wins/losses for a single chain of rematches (but it's not shown anywhere yet), and the game has absolutely no idea whether the players in one match are the same as the players in another match. Probably wouldn't work for something with a community bigger than 20 people.
I dont care about K/D cus i just want to learn cus i know im newbie. However, having this info on screen is just bad for everyone. Cus when i get stomped 100 times in a row by a smurf, thatll STILL scare other newbies cus theyll realize i have match experience and will decline. Hide any number on matchup screen other than an abstract rank. Humans pattern recognition cant handle anything else.
Whenever I'm having a bad match in Halo I need to make an effort to not pull up the scoreboard every time I die. The back button basically becomes a "make myself angry" button and I can't stop pressing it.
40:00 That is my exact issue right now, I'm in college and I can't study for shit and am still struggling to keep above a B in some classes when I was straight A's for my entire highschool education.
I think they're missing the other kind of person who quits, the ones who don't ragequit per se, they just get extremely discouraged and kinda sad and just wanna concede. I dunno how that goes in fighting games but lord knows I "depression quit" in FPS games constantly.
Fighting games should learn from other online games and have Season periods. Check it to a season -> Fresh start, your win/loss ratio gets reset to zero Play matches. Season ends -> final W/L ratio performance gets recorded for that season. Upload to leaderboards, compare dicks, whatever. Then resets back to zero for the next one
The shield system sounds identical to DBZ budokai 3. Um. No Sometimes the person is calm and together but have rooted anger and they're hit with a mangneto loop and suddenly they just need to scream.
45:43 I play Genshin and honestly it's the one I've been playing the most for a good number of months,. I did hear about assholes shitting on Diluc's VA for some bullshit misunderstanding about a thing that was incredibly unimportant, making him cut all contact with the community; I also remember them going apeshit at Barbara's VA because "how could you change the voice lines in this and this attack!" because obviously she has full control of what goes in the game behind the scenes (I'm being sarcastic here, btw), then the thing about a live stream that felt awkwardly performed because the jokes were scripted which in turn made Aether's VA complain about the toxicity he has gone through. The thing is... the GI community can be as fucking disgusting as the anime community, because GI community is at least partially a subset of the anime community. That sort of shit is crap that actors, directors and pretty much anybody with some level of public image has gone through. And yet, there's also some pretty nice places to be in within the same GI community. Raiden's VA and Ganyu's VA each have their Twitch streams and their discord servers were people are rather nice, not creepy and all-around helpful. During streams you can even ask them "hey I got stuck in this thing in the abyss, can you give me some pointers?", or "what do you think about this or that character?" and, if it doesn't break NDA, they are likely to respond (if they manage to catch your message). And like that there's Xiangling's VA, Gourou's, Aether's and Lumine's. A lot of them engage with the community, but they also have active mods, which apparently are sorely lacking during GI live streams. My point is that, to me (and I could be wrong), in number the annoying trash people are less than those that are at least civil, but they are VERY noisy... The Reddit community is, seems to me, less garbage than the one found on Twitter; but take that with a grain of salt, because it also has its share of weirdos.
Type Lumina made me realize how rusty I am in fighting games, my reaction time is shot to shit due to age. I'm having fun with that rollback tho, infinitely more so than BBTAG.
The win/loss ratio stresses me out, but at the same time I know that deep down I am not good enough to be worrying about it yet. At the end of the day, it is a way of humbling myself diwn everytime i feel like im decent at fighting games already, and its not like my "pride" is on the line considering im the only one who cares about my own ratio.
showing stats does create incentives folks I dunno why this basic element of game design that's been in since the arcades (hint: SCORE COUNTERS) is such a wild concept for many folks to wrap their heads around but there it is. This really isn't hard, or revolutionary, or new, this is literally 101 of creating incentives for players.
As a person who double dipped on PS4 and PC version it is true the online ok at Launch. PS4 version was rare but it happen PC after 2 patches it run almost like PS4 as a person who unfortunately only option is wifi run fine to feels like offline.
I'm not really a fighting game type of guy, but wouldn't being overzealous to protect one's number only end up bringing more attention to others about one's potential rage-quitting habits in the long run? I mean, I know if I were to face an opponent and saw a huge number of wins and virtually no losses in their profile, I would see it as a clear implication of them most likely being a ratio coward. Conversely, if I saw someone who's not ashamed of showing a more realistic win-to-lose ratio, then i'd respect them as a more "legit" player.
Melty Blood TL actually does have a basic system for showing people who excessively disconnect. People who quit a lot have their names turn red so you know they rage quit regularly. Ex. th-cam.com/video/kNQSSYvLRz4/w-d-xo.html
The best way to deal with RQers is Rage Quit hell. If you do it enough, you only get matched up with people that behave like you do and are away from other people who can take a loss like a decent human being.
I dunno man, couldn't the K/D ratio thing be replaced with like... flags captured/flags lost or something, or whatever your game is about? If your game isn't about scoring kills, but your primary scoring statistic is kills, then your game IS about scoring kills.
I hated when Battlefield included kills and deaths. Pat is correct. There were people that wouldn't play the objective and only cared about K/D. The only stats that should be tracked are the ones that actually win rounds. Now this gets tricky with games like Battlefield or Hunt: Showdown. Even though they have objectives, killing and not being killed makes completing the objectives easier.
16:30 I need to check with more people who are playing, but based off Sajam and several people's experience in the comments, it seems like the game might be suffering from one-sided rollback SFV-style. If you are having a smooth experience in one match, it's likely that the player on the other side is having a laggy match, and vice verca.
PS4 if skip intro runs normal to rare slight hiccups. PC after 2 patches a little more noticeable but few from between. Unfortunately runs on wifi due limited options.
I came to terms with not being the best at anything when I was younger so losing or not getting mvp never bothered me but what I still cant get around is not getting credit for achievements I've done or getting the blame for shit I didn't do (not the hottest take but it ought to be said). When I'm working my ass off to get a kill and then come out with an assist or when my teammate kills me for a fucking power weapon I was using or when some shithead fucks up my trailer at work because they cant stack a wall to save their life THAT'S when I get just a slightly bit irritated.
I don't understand rage quitters. There was only one time I actually quit an online match, and that was in Injustice 2, they technically had an option for AI only online matches with players custom characters. I didn't know you had to watch the whole thing, since in most other games with AI matches you can just fast forward the results. So that was a learning experience. I'm only really upset if I lost if 1. The person I was playing against was blatantly using some kind of cheating device (not necessarily fighting games, but like guys with super speed in a shooter) or 2. The match making thing pits me against someone way out my league, like I will admit in SFV I am comfortable in bronze rank, but once I got put against a gold rank player. But that doesn't upset me nearly as much as the first issue of cheaters.
I lost in Strive about 100 times last night with maybe 10 wins in total. And i tell people how much i lost. Often 20 times per person. I think i got better at the potemkin match-up, so i took at least that.
I think I've finally played enough video games where the numbers just blend in at this point. Maybe I'm just getting drunk too often whole I play fighting games is a better excuse though, and I just can't see them lmao
Having ADHD the negative emotions just sneak up on you without noticing until it his a boiling point. I wasnt diagnosed til 18, and without any coping mechanisms, the 2 times as a young teen i broke shit it was over smash 4 and i basically fucked myself. The first was one of the cheap wii pro controllers modeled like a gamecube controller with the yoshi design. That one just felt like shit and i regretted it after but i was able to get another one with pocket money and i learned not to break that one. The other i was playing with the gamepad in on the bed and i threw the controller down on the bed without thinking cuz like whatever soft bed no problem,,,, OOOPS THATS RIGHT WHERE THE GAMEPAD IS OH GOD OH FUCK I BROKE MY GAMEPAD SCREEN OH FUCK. That was YEEEEEARS ago, and only a few months ago was i finally able to replace it. But yeah parents need to just leave it up to their kids to earn the money for the shit they break, ESPECIALLY the expensive stuff. Itll learn them how to respect their stuff and chill the fuck out REAL QUICK when the consequense is, cant play that video game til you bust your ass to replace it.
My favorite part of this whole business is people finally realizing that rollback is not a miracle solution and that people parroting e-celebs about how "Netcode is a fixed problem" were massively delusional. Type Lumina uses GGPO as well so you can't weasel your way out of it by saying "well their inhouse solution is bad, this wouldn't have happened if they used X". Maybe now we can have actual discussions about the quality of a game's netcode implementation and the importance of wifi indicators rather than the asinine "If it has rollback it's good, if it doesn't it's bad" that has been going on for the last year.
Underrated comment: Rollback isn't the holy grail, it's a tool, an extremely useful one but one that must STILL be used in conjunction with other networking techniques.
My mom would often say that I was smart, but what stuck with me was when she said, "You're very determined." THAT made me unwilling to accept failure in problem solving without trying my absolute hardest. To this day, I work in repair and technician focused industries in my day job.
Couple of random thoughts from someone who's dabbled casually since Act Cadenza days: Feels like the game has taken one step forward in terms of graphical fidelity (and to their credit, the spritework is beautiful), but taken three steps backward in terms of game complexity. Rapid Beat autocombos are a nice introduction to the game but it shouldn't have been at the expense of Reverse Beats, which was a unique mechanic that offered excellent combo depth. The loss of the Crescent/Half/Full Moon style systems was unfortunate, but as far as rebooting a game goes I guess it's an understandable thing to cut. As an ad for the Tsukihime remake essentially I can understand cutting some of the other characters not directly in the core story like Sion and Wallachia, but where's Nrvnqsr? I demands the HOAAA Where's the new mix of the Melty Blood theme? I read a Steam comment that "This Melty Blood isn't for you, old man" and honestly that might just be true. I wanted it to hit me like DMC5 and instead it hit me like DmC: Fine and serviceable as a game, but I'm still gonna feel sad about what it could have been.
Wasn't the original Melty release, pre-expansions, pretty bootleg, too? I imagine they have plenty of plans to expand over time, add new characters and mechanics, correct problematic ones and adjust the game's balance, that sort of thing.
@@BoloJolo He's present for a short in-text cameo in one scene, but he doesn't appear in person at all, he isn't the midboss of the Near Side routes anymore. Many speculate that he's either going to be put in Sacchin's route, or in any of the other Far Side routes.
I stopped playing fighting games just because of the online community, it's bad enough when you always losing every match it just stops being fun after a while when you see no improvement, it also doesn't help when your constantly being insulted for sucking at the game, the last match of UMVC3 I ever played was against a guy who was spamming Wesker's teleport in the air where it was hard to reach him, while Morrigan kept using the assist so build up his meter, he managed to kill my entire team except for Dr Doom, I finally caught a break when I managed to catch both his Morrigan and his Wesker in the finger laser, which I X factored into more finger lasers killing them both, then by some miracle I managed to catch his Dark Pheonix in Dr Dooms Level 3 I finally I managed to get a win, and what did I get for my efforts? Que the entire Lobby insulting me for using such a noob character like Dr Doom, that I suck, I got lucky ETC. That's when I finally had the realization why do I even play fighting games? I don't have fun when I win I don't have fun when I lose what's the fucking point? from then on the only time I played fighting games was to play Smash Bros with friends (which most hardcore fighting game players don't consider a real fighting game) or when a friend would bring one over and even then it was just to mess around, like finding all the dramatic finishes in Dragon Ball Fighter, or watch all the cringy cutscenes in MVCI never really for any of the Multiplayer content.
Autocombos hurt my soul. Its fine for games to have them for casual players. Just leave some dope games without them for the rest of us. Or at least let us turn them off or set up lobbies where you can choose weather to allow them. I just dont feel satisfied doing the occasional quarter circle. Command normals are where my heart and soul lay.
Just keep the win/lose ration visible only to yourself. Go through a page or two for people who want to see it and for the people that would rather be ignorant of that info. don't have to see it. Plus, let's be honest here I think after so many matches even if your memory is not completely pristine...you know if you're winning or losing more. You can feel it. It's a competitive style game. There will be winners and losers. Either get the fuck over it and strive to improve or stop playing. People are so overly emotional these days.
I understand children, but it’s a soft mentality by teens and adults. Just don’t play. It’s less stressful. It can’t feel good. The only caveat for me is the connection is dog shit. I’ve never rq, but I have moved on instead of giving someone a proper second match because of connection or the rare times I needed to leave right then.
To me a win loss ratio is like experience. Win go up, I've gained experience. Loss increases!? I've lost experience? Fuck this shitty ass MMO. Coz that's how it feels. It feels like when you play a game that randomly decided to be stuck in the past and thinks it's a good idea to take away experience. I k ow it's not the same thing, but the feeling is the same and that's why I hate these ratios. Also, just like people have the right to quit on shit connections I have the right to quit on matchups with opponents that I think are unreasonable and the game has just presented to me because it has a trash matchmaker.
I'll be real kinda burnt out on anime fighters. Dont get me wrong, Strive is dope especially with rollback i'm sure melty blood is good too but just ugh. Wake me when injustice 3 comes out.
You know, I've heard this discussion across so many competitive systems, i would personally be okay with paying for a game that acts like an actual parent. What's that, you haven't played anyone of equal or higher rank in a month? you lose one rank. Keep that up for longer then 2 months? Ranked is sealed of for an equal duration. With an adequate, easy to understand warning before the consequence ofc. People wanna be babies, treat them like babies.
"Rage Quiting begins at home" This has been a public service announcement by Woolie and Pat
"Talk Shit. Get hit."
- Sheng Long
>Pat: "So it's not a touch of death game."
>Woolie: "I'm not going to say that because someone's going to find something."
It'll probably be the Roa players.
Nah, if it's anything to go by history, it'll be the Miyako Players rotating between command grab, upkicks that HIT OVERHEAD, Meaty left-right mixups, and plain old standing low.
I swear, if you see anyone wearing red and/or has a hint that they're Chinese, they are unga bunga braindead.
We got Roa players already risking soft locking themselves out of a fight just for the sake of a double overhead mix. They'll do something eventually.
@@janematthews9087 but they have no reach
I like how you can tell Pat didn't see shit about this game, or the old Melty either, because the damage is not high in the game, especially not compared to strive
@@janematthews9087 Miyako doesn't have a command grab. Or a standing low. But the overhead upkicks are real shit lol
52 minutes of the boys talking about Melty? Yessir
Edit: I walked into a Melty discussion expecting memes about drip and shielding and came out with a fucking psychology lecture/debate on why people ragequit.
I love it.
It's funny how woolies description of shield and how it's like a 3rd strike parry you can hold that drains a meter is almost exactly how parrying is in sf6
realizing the whole "you're so smart" vs "you work hard" talk is hitting a little too close to home oh no
I got the worst of both of those constantly in school where multiple teachers were like _"Oh you're definitely really smart... but we noticed you just don't apply yourself / aren't TRYING so we're lowering your Grades based on your EFFORT, not your performance so that you'll Try harder and reach what we think your real potential is"_
Yup, it's no wonder why I sucked in the last 2 years of school
If you're on the smart camp there's a valley there but it only lasts until you're in a position where working hard doesn't matter, and you can play to your strengths
Fuck seeing win/lose ratios. Seeing win/lose ratio makes me go crazy, because it feels like a Stan I can never get rid of no matter how good I get. I like GG;ST because the floor system exclusively rewards me for getting better at the game. Ratio puts pressure on me to win from the get go, something that is a bad lesson for getting into fighting games. That Ratio is my mind goblin.
I liked the floors initially but that feeling of going on a losing streak and getting thrown from floor 10 to 7 or 6 makes me want to tear my head off.
I agree. I don't mind people who want to see the win/lose ratio, but to me seeing my win percentage is usually never important enough in terms of helping me improve. It's discouraging more than anything. If you wanna show how good the opponent is, you can at least do it the way Strive and Tekken does it with your ranked score/level that tells you the opponent's been playing this character/game for a good time. Strive's level up is pretty arbitary, but it tends to FEEL rewarding in terms of showing progress. At least you dont lose points like in Tekken, but that's subjective.
Completely agree. Seeing that number/percentage feels like its telling everyone how good or bad I am before I even start a round. And maintaining it is stressful. Had a fifty percent with Red Arc at first, got hit with a losing streak, then dropped to forty percent. I had to get like 3 10 win streaks to get it back to fifty. It felt soul crushing when it shouldn't because number mind goblins.
@@pyropoyo when you actually belong on floor 10 you'll actually stay there.
Picked up DBFZ a few months ago, started out at 28% Winrate in ranked.
It's up to 37% now, but it still bothers me when I see it - despite all the progression I've made.
That DOA4 achievement is downright sinister, it's like a Scarlet L permanently branded onto your account.
it's ironically the best way of dealing with salty/toxic people.
constantly stomp on them and rub their face in the proverbial dirt to the point where they just quit and never want to ever play the game ever again is arguably the most effective way but it's not the nicest way. which is really what most people want as a solution.
Honestly, an achievement that says something like "I have lost at least 5 matches over my career" is a pretty good way to weed out the exact kind of people you don't want to be in your matchmaking system.
Blitz the League has a bunch of dickhead achievements. There are others with odd values (like 6G or 14G) to really get the goblins going.
Weak Sauce - 0G
Lost to Arizona in game 1 of Campaign Mode
O RLY? - 0G
Lost by more than 24 pts in Campaign Mode
Blind - 0G
Threw 5+ interceptions in one game
Offline or Online Solo or Co-op
ROFL Waffle - 0G
Lost 5 games in a row online
Lollercoaster - 0G
Fumble the ball 5 times in a game
@@KevynKross i feel like these achievements might actually mean something in a game where you weren't encouraged to "cheat".
it's worse than that. the way ranking was handled meant the lower your rank the more points somebody would lose if they lost to you, I went many rounds with a competitive Christie player called Awesmic and loss every match so I ended up with the F- ranking getting the achievement on accident. while it didn't initially bother me I soon learned that it made it absurdly difficult to find anymore matches.
I'm definitely one of those "I didn't know I was a rage quitter" guys. I didn't play any kind of competitive games for YEARS because my best friend growing up was the kid whose parents got him everything on launch day, so he was always better than everyone else at whatever the game du jour was, so I just stopped trying to beat him (and I was antisocial, so I didn't play games with a lot of other people). I didn't play a competitive game again until a couple of years ago, when Pat and Woolie got me into Apex Legends, and I discovered that all this time I had an inner shitlord, waiting for an opportunity to reveal himself. I've gotten better about it, but I've quit out of a lot of matches where my teammates could have brought me back, I've come VERY close to throwing my controller, and I've invented a few new slurs for races that don't exist swearing at my tv. I guess I still need to build up my tolerance.
The people who care about this too this extend will still care if they don't see the number, 'cause you can never erase the number in their heads
"You can never erase the number in their head" sounds like a very ominous statement out of context.
@@arthurgomes5188 considering the mental damage the head numbers to people on a regular basis, ominous is pretty appropriate
They will literally just get an Overlay Plug-in! There's 3rd party programs and API aggregators for this exact thing in almost *every* _semi-competitive_ game I've ever played, especially shooters
Ratios deter the kinda player that just wants to jump in and learn a little bit each match. Each loss is a mini stamp on a permanent and public record and makes losing feel worse. Rage quitting to protect it is still some bitch shit though.
I like how the topic of fighting games just naturally turns into a conversation about learned helplessness.
3:55 "There is a type of person that joins a team and immediately starts taking credit for things that existed before he joined"
Yeah. They're called enneagram type 3s.
tfw you think that a comment is making a joke but look it up for context and accidentally learn something
Yep, Woolie's right. I'm 30 now and I'm only just seeing my anger management issues. I just buried it all this time and exploded when I'm alone. You can go really far without dealing with it, but it'll eventually come out and get ya.
The only way to get over that fear is to change ur mentality to “I’m not even good enough to worry about that number, I must improve.”
Or "Worrying about the number just make the number worse, so to improve the number i need to stop paying this much attention to it."
Same shift, but theoretically a mindset that Might be easier for someone with that mindset to wrap their head around.
@@Azmodeus87 trust me, seeing yourself as less than decent while being actually good enough to probably take 1 round at evo pools makes a huge different to confidence and discipline. You just have to understand that ANYONE can beat you and that what your doing is playing your character to your best ability to avoid that, a lot of people forget that, get High rank or numbers and just assume they should be winning
@@CapcomSwagg I agree, But just see so many people saying they suck, when most objective analysis would say they're above par at worst. And that can negatively impact your confidence, long term, unless you keep that in mind.
@@Azmodeus87 keep the bar low and the sky is infinite
@@CapcomSwagg Yeah, but i also see many people that doesn't get that you need to do the mental adjustment of " This means i'm bad only compared to some peers, i'm not Full on Bad at the game". And that's more the mindset i was trying to adapt the the principle too.
As embarrassing as it is, I'm not afraid to admit I was one of those people that would absolutely lose their shit over a game for a distressingly long time. Honestly don't know how the rest of my family didn't strangle me at some points. For me personally it wasn't even my K/D ratio or win rate or whatever. It was the fact that I knew I was good at games and I shouldn't be losing like this - didn't matter whether it was on or offline. Still, eventually I learnt to stop playing if I was getting too frustrated and (especially for multiplayer) accept I'm not gonna be good at every game all the time.
I can relate.
that means that others are better than you, ,i dont know why people cant understand this. It doesnt matter how good you are at anything, there will always be someone better
I was kinda like this as a kid too. I wouldn't rage but I would quietly seethe because "I'm good at games! Why am I losing?!"
Took some growing up to realise that whatever I'm good at, thousands of people are better and that's fine. Play games to have fun improving with other people and appreciate the slow growth instead of being upset that I'm not already better than everyone
40:00
Me being the best at math all throughout elementary&middle school. Come high school algebra I couldn't wrap my head around it and it destroyed me. Now math continues to haunt me a decade later.
About the thing being told you're smart vs hard working. Especially when you're a kid. They tell you you're smart and you're wondering what's going on because you're not putting in any effort. Then 2 dots make a line and you start thinking that maybe you really are smart and that's why there's no need to study.
Once reality kicks in there's 2 problems. 1. You've been mislead by all the people that told you were smart.
2. You have no idea what it means to study and how to do it.
You stack 2 great debuffs. Misleading/Deception and unexpected lack of preparation. And boy do those debuffs suck
As a person that has never gotten into fighting games, this is like hearing people talk in a different language
Yup, every other word is jargon. One of the reason getting into fighting games is nearly impossible anymore.
As a person that is into fighting games, hearing people talk about competitive FPS or MOBA in-depth also feels like listening to another language. We can stop pretending this is a genre problem.
@@BlackHeart1216 look up the Fighting Game Glossary by Core-A Gaming. I promise you will be using all those terms if you ever get into a FG seriously, it gets very tiring to describe every concept literally when they can be pretty complex. Like imagine typing out "The moves i do to cover my opponent as they rise up from a knocked down state, so that i can continue offensive pressure" instead of just saying OKI
@@BlackHeart1216 That's not at all different from any other multiplayer game. Or any other genre.
removing stats isn't actually going to fix the problems you're talking about.
the people who are like that are usually the kinda of people who feel like they HAVE to win, they NEED to be the best and that the game is only fun if THEY win.
i know a guy like this in MTG where he'll just flat out scoop over the pettiest shit.
I was a victim of 'you're so smart.' I was smart enough to discover that if I just stopped doing homework in junior high, I would still get straight Bs at worst in every subject. Then I went to high school and not only did I not know how to study, I didn't know how to do work period, or manage a schedule. I still don't, to be totally honest, and I'm 28 for chrissakes. Dropped out of high school at 16 through a government-sponsored program where they would pay for my GED test, as a no-child-left-behind initiative thing. Results came back on the test and I was in the top 2% of test takers or some shit, and everyone around me was STILL saying 'gee, you're so smart' because of it, including the woman working for the program that proctored the test. 2% is 1 in 50, it's at least upgraded from smartest kid in the class to smartest kid in your class plus the next class over.
I am also a "Smart" person with little to no work ethic. I'm 22 now but the reason I was able to finish high school and go to college because 1. Everyone else in my family dropped out and I was the last hope 2. I am more terrified of actually working than doing school.
@@jonahi1304 Did I write this fucking comment when I was 22 9 years ago?
I agree that everyone NEEDS to be humbled at least once in their childhood. Whether it's in a video game, martial arts training, or something else. That being said the parents/family needs to be able to make sure they learned the right lesson from it which probably easier said than done.
I love the psychology talks, that's the best part of the show!
I'm definitely one of those guys who cares about K/D too much lol. Never enough to rage quit a game, or to ignore an objective in favor of maintaining a positive score. But I definitely remember feeling goddamn miserable when playing Undernight online and seeing the L tick up after every single fight while the W stayed stagnant. Because I didnt feel like I was improving, I just felt free.
And honestly, I think there is no solution where both sides win. I think you'd have to hide that information forever altogether and not let people know and forgo those who WANT to know, otherwise it doesnt matter how many menus you hide it behind, the ratio exists and it will torment those people.
This "clip" is an hour long!
"Chunk" is more accurate!
Never was one to rage quit matches to preserve the ratio, but I've always been hesitant on matchmaking after a win because of preserving a positive ratio despite being new. Dbfz's ability to hide your own BP and win/loss ratio was the difference between winning 1 set and calling it a session vs playing the rest of the day. I tell myself not to care, but I see that number and the pressure skyrockets like I'm taking an exam I never studied for. Call me a coward, but I do wish this stuff was hidden by default, but you can dig to find your records if you care about that stuff.
Strive's lack of ranked made it the most comfortable game for me to keep on playing because I feel like I'm just playing Guilty Gear as opposed to some numbers game with grades to show your level. Stuck at floor 10, it doesn't feel like I'm bronze or gold or whatever, it just feel like I'm not Celestial level.
I agree. I don't mind people who want to see the win/lose ratio, but to me seeing my win percentage is usually never important enough in terms of helping me improve. It's discouraging more than anything. If you wanna show how good the opponent is, you can at least do it the way Strive and Tekken does it with your ranked score/level that tells you the opponent's been playing this character/game for a good time. Strive's level up is pretty arbitary, but it tends to FEEL rewarding in terms of showing progress.
Just curious, and i'm being very sincere here: Do you think you would care less, if less of the FG discourse was about high end competition? I'm asking this, since that's the thing that i hear a lot of beginner to intermediate discussion about (partly because that's about where i am). Like, say, less of the "[Rank] doesn't mean anything" vs. more "Does [Rank] reflect the skill level well?"
@@Azmodeus87 I dont fully grasp the question, but I do genuinly feel the FGC needs more casual oriented content that doesnt focus too much on just getting better for the sake of playing the game better. Im talking animations, music, presentation, artstyle, design, story, lore, etc. Stuff that casual fans can discuss and take part in without needing to understand the game at a high level, because that's only so much of the fanbase and crowd you're involving.
@@leithaziz2716 You answered it well, but just for clarity: My question was mainly, do you think you would be more relaxed about the W/L ratio, if the general FG discourse was less about what it takes to make Top 8?
@@Azmodeus87 I dont think people care about reaching the top 10 of leaderboards or anything. It's mostly wanting to reach the highest in-game rank and not feeling like you're constantly losing and going backwards in progress. (like getting kicked off of a floor or losing a rank)
Pat really says "toxic" a lot...
Smash ultimate handled stats and records in a way that more games should follow. It has very in depth and specific stats broken up by fighter, player behavior, and game mode, but it's deep enough in the options menu that you actively have to search for what you want. It's there as an option, but you can completely ignore it if you don't care and not miss out on any substantial content.
This is why Pat and Woolie aren't in charge of fighting games.
Can’t say I’ve ever ragequit myself but oh boy I’ve been on the other end. Especially in Fighterz. Whenever you introduced someone to TOD you expected to see that familiar message on screen, gave me an almost hedonistic pleasure, *BIG dopamine*
45:15
That explains why my friends who play Genshin Impact have issues with Twitter or Reddit posts about Genshin. The game has conditioned them into believing that some characters or weapons are terrible while others just want to have fun. Plus one is Whale and other one is a F2P so that rivalry is always fun to hear.
15:20 or you can play the cultured way by putting on headphones, playing "Find You One Way" on repeat. and spamming DP whenever your attack it blocked.
That works in this to as Shiki ALSO has a safe DP. Just fucking rock the main character privilege and see the Points of Death of your opponent.
I am absolutely one of those ratio cowards. I only ever played one game of Ranked League of Legends and - after a nerve-wracking, sweaty 40 minutes - resolved to never do that again and retire on a 100% Ranked win rate. Of course, I didn't actually have *fun* playing Ranked, but this and one other incident (in which I realized my personal performance in-game was way more important than the result of the match, even to its detriment) is why I stopped playing team and/or competitive games.
Some people just aren't made for PvP, and I'm one of them.
the reason why I didn't develop gamer rage is because as a kid I never won at anything
I wasn't even good enough to finish single player games, not until I was literally an adult
there wasn't even a micron of a chance for me to become a rage-quitter
been a while since a near ~1 hour "clip", nice.
I've finally truly gotten into fighting games with MBTL and honestly I've been having a blast. I do wish that winrate can be hidden though. And let people have multiple simultaneous matches in custom rooms instead of one at a time.
45:30 I knew gachas where at fault too, at first it was the fight games, but it was the gacha all along!
Gacha: "It was me gamers!"
"Just give me a match! I want to fight!"
The main problem I had was I don't know what I was doing and didn't do tutorials. As soon as I did tutorials I got better. And felt terrible about the times I felt cheated cause fuck, it was literally me not knowing how to play. These people probably also didn't do tutorials and try and learn by Trial By Fire.
Though weirdly in Melty Blood: Actress Again I didn't feel as bad because... They had years on me playing this game compared to my time playing SFV and getting mad in shit tier. I was just glad they would accept to play a match for a newbie like me and kind of felt bad playing them a bunch cause I was the only one they were connecting to.
don't feel bad about that. If people still accept the rematch you're not wasting their time. And most of the time, any players do learn from fighting anyone, even people who's not at their level yet.
I love it when games bring out the base disposition in people whether they're good or bad (the bad part is usually more funny tho)
GO AHEAD PAT!! Man dropping knowledge!
Ono carries the FGC. It's indisputable, and after 20+ years of single handedly keeping Street Fighter together he pushed Melty over the finish line.
I took psychic damage from this comment
I hope this is sarcasm
@@Keezawea I'm dead serious about my admiration for Yoshinori Ono, who's visionary leadership brought forth the most innovative netcode solution known to man and launched the rollback revolution!
And who could forget his genius decision to take a chance on a studio that never made a videogame before to make SFV resulting in a depleted budget and creating an amazing partnership with Sony to get the game out!
@@Keezawea It's sarcasm
It's amazing how in the span of three months he not only single-handedly made Type Lumina, but was so humble he agreed to completely erase his name from the credits so everybody at French Bread could take credit for it instead.
As far as the zero-sum game players that have to lose eventually are better about losing, I've been in deep in tcgs for 20 years, playing at all levels of competition, and even working behind the scenes in their design. I can firmly attest that this is not the case.
I think a lot of people at a more social level that have a single lgs with a Cheers-like atmosphere where they hang out with friends and tap some lands, those people can generally avoid tilt. You still get a few bad eggs of course, but these things are social events.
But when people have ever played for stakes, even if they aren't playing for stakes _right now,_ there's an intensity there that builds up, because you have an inherent desire to take credit for your own wins when they happen, but discredit losses as random, out of your control. And to be fair, to some extent, they're right. A bad player will lose with a good hand more often than a good player is capable of winning with a bad one, regardless of the specific game. I think what Woolie is describing with zero-sum games and learning to cope with loss, he means only games with a lack of random elements.
I'm a seasoned veteran of this circuit, but I also have a background in design, and I've studied statistics at a college level before, so I can avoid these pitfalls that I see ensnaring those in my community so often. Players will talk up and exaggerate the skill ceiling of their game of choice, because they _want_ other people to agree the game is difficult, so their pp can get bigger when they win a game. Wins are all skill, and oh man how much skill it takes, they're so smart, but all losses are completely random and out of their control. I'm in a competitive team _right now_ for a tcg where about half of its members think this way exactly. I watch players who shall not be named overextend into an obvious setup I read a mile away, they get their ass blown out, then after the match go into the group chat baby raging about rng, it had to be exactly that setup, there's no way they could have known, nothing they could have done. And of course they'll just lash out more if you try to point out there WAS a different line they could have taken, because rage isn't about learning from mistakes, it's about vindication and blame-shifting. I find folks with this behavior pattern tend to gravitate toward spending time with people who will agree with them or support their claims of bullshittery, even when it's not the case, and this just encourages the behavior.
I will add that the issue is, again, in some cases the player is legitimately correct and has some right to be upset. What you want in a game is for both players to have hands of comparable quality, so navigating these hands to determine a victor is a skill tester. When one player has options that are clearly just better than anything the other draws, the tcg experience is much worse. This issue is exacerbated in games that don't allow optional mulligans, like pokemon and yugioh, where you really have no control over the hand you're dealt. The baby rage dealing with loss issues are when players perceive their hand or their opponents as a different quality level than it actually is. Players have a tendency to gloss over or take for granted when the opponent has a bad deal, but focus on when they have bad deals, even if they're not actually that bad.
So I guess the point is, babies will find ways to be babies, because even if the nature of the game forces you to lose on the regular, all they have to do is blame that loss on any factor other than their own skill. Johns truly are the root of all evil.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Ooooh THAT kind of ratio coward!
I won’t lie I thought the title was about Yoshinori being ratioed lol
The ad break at 6:30 was great
I'll weigh in one this. Some people may not like to hear this and I may even get some hate, but oh well.
Some people are unfortunate to be born to narcissistic parents. These types of parents demand perfection out of their children, and any kind of failure is seen as a threat to the parents' image and is met with punishment and shame. The child learns quickly that in order to be loved by their parents they have to never make mistakes and always win. Whenever these kids lose or fail at anything, it brings up those painful feelings of not being loved or accepted, and on top of those feelings, they also have to deal with their opponent/others talking shit and making fun of them. And yet, these kids are expected to bottle these feelings up. Eventually the powder keg explodes, and they become a "rage quitter". In order for these people to get over it, they need to learn to separate themselves from their parents and love themselves and their inner children. Some people need help doing this, and telling them "fuck off you're a bitch" does not help in the slightest. And, before anyone says it, I'm not claiming ALL rage quitters are these types of traumatized people. What I AM saying is that some of them are, and they need help, not ridicule. And yes, I was one of those kids who grew up with a narcissistic father who demanded I be perfect and be better than everyone at everything. I still struggle with my old, painful feelings, but I'm learning to be calm.
i’m cool with having a twenty percent win rate or whatever, but man, it’s sad to see everyone i get matched with has 80%+ wins
oh and the match someone did quit on me, they had an awful ratio already and them quitting crashed my game
Pat is describing me in college... except I just learned to coast on other´s effort. Turn out that is the actual secret to success.
The way it works for the game I made (a card game) is that the game does record wins/losses for a single chain of rematches (but it's not shown anywhere yet), and the game has absolutely no idea whether the players in one match are the same as the players in another match. Probably wouldn't work for something with a community bigger than 20 people.
Melty Blood Type Ninja Storm, Substitution/Shield Jutsu
I dont care about K/D cus i just want to learn cus i know im newbie.
However, having this info on screen is just bad for everyone. Cus when i get stomped 100 times in a row by a smurf, thatll STILL scare other newbies cus theyll realize i have match experience and will decline.
Hide any number on matchup screen other than an abstract rank. Humans pattern recognition cant handle anything else.
Whenever I'm having a bad match in Halo I need to make an effort to not pull up the scoreboard every time I die. The back button basically becomes a "make myself angry" button and I can't stop pressing it.
Melty does have a warning system of sorts, the name on your profile changes between white, green, and red depending on early dq's
40:00 That is my exact issue right now, I'm in college and I can't study for shit and am still struggling to keep above a B in some classes when I was straight A's for my entire highschool education.
I think they're missing the other kind of person who quits, the ones who don't ragequit per se, they just get extremely discouraged and kinda sad and just wanna concede. I dunno how that goes in fighting games but lord knows I "depression quit" in FPS games constantly.
Apathy Quits
Fighting games should learn from other online games and have Season periods.
Check it to a season -> Fresh start, your win/loss ratio gets reset to zero
Play matches.
Season ends -> final W/L ratio performance gets recorded for that season. Upload to leaderboards, compare dicks, whatever. Then resets back to zero for the next one
The shield system sounds identical to DBZ budokai 3.
Um. No
Sometimes the person is calm and together but have rooted anger and they're hit with a mangneto loop and suddenly they just need to scream.
45:43
I play Genshin and honestly it's the one I've been playing the most for a good number of months,. I did hear about assholes shitting on Diluc's VA for some bullshit misunderstanding about a thing that was incredibly unimportant, making him cut all contact with the community; I also remember them going apeshit at Barbara's VA because "how could you change the voice lines in this and this attack!" because obviously she has full control of what goes in the game behind the scenes (I'm being sarcastic here, btw), then the thing about a live stream that felt awkwardly performed because the jokes were scripted which in turn made Aether's VA complain about the toxicity he has gone through.
The thing is... the GI community can be as fucking disgusting as the anime community, because GI community is at least partially a subset of the anime community. That sort of shit is crap that actors, directors and pretty much anybody with some level of public image has gone through.
And yet, there's also some pretty nice places to be in within the same GI community. Raiden's VA and Ganyu's VA each have their Twitch streams and their discord servers were people are rather nice, not creepy and all-around helpful. During streams you can even ask them "hey I got stuck in this thing in the abyss, can you give me some pointers?", or "what do you think about this or that character?" and, if it doesn't break NDA, they are likely to respond (if they manage to catch your message). And like that there's Xiangling's VA, Gourou's, Aether's and Lumine's. A lot of them engage with the community, but they also have active mods, which apparently are sorely lacking during GI live streams.
My point is that, to me (and I could be wrong), in number the annoying trash people are less than those that are at least civil, but they are VERY noisy... The Reddit community is, seems to me, less garbage than the one found on Twitter; but take that with a grain of salt, because it also has its share of weirdos.
If you go to your rcode and hit r2 twice it shows your win/loss record for the past 100 matches in strive
What if rage quitting didn't count as a win for the other person, but did count as a loss for the quitter?
Type Lumina made me realize how rusty I am in fighting games, my reaction time is shot to shit due to age. I'm having fun with that rollback tho, infinitely more so than BBTAG.
The win/loss ratio stresses me out, but at the same time I know that deep down I am not good enough to be worrying about it yet. At the end of the day, it is a way of humbling myself diwn everytime i feel like im decent at fighting games already, and its not like my "pride" is on the line considering im the only one who cares about my own ratio.
showing stats does create incentives folks I dunno why this basic element of game design that's been in since the arcades (hint: SCORE COUNTERS) is such a wild concept for many folks to wrap their heads around but there it is.
This really isn't hard, or revolutionary, or new, this is literally 101 of creating incentives for players.
As a person who double dipped on PS4 and PC version it is true the online ok at Launch. PS4 version was rare but it happen PC after 2 patches it run almost like PS4 as a person who unfortunately only option is wifi run fine to feels like offline.
i wonder if woolie has played all the melty bloods
Rage quiters in the hood would end in gunshots or thrown blows like a low lofe
Man wonder how Pat will react to this convo right now
I'm not really a fighting game type of guy, but wouldn't being overzealous to protect one's number only end up bringing more attention to others about one's potential rage-quitting habits in the long run?
I mean, I know if I were to face an opponent and saw a huge number of wins and virtually no losses in their profile, I would see it as a clear implication of them most likely being a ratio coward. Conversely, if I saw someone who's not ashamed of showing a more realistic win-to-lose ratio, then i'd respect them as a more "legit" player.
Melty Blood TL actually does have a basic system for showing people who excessively disconnect. People who quit a lot have their names turn red so you know they rage quit regularly.
Ex. th-cam.com/video/kNQSSYvLRz4/w-d-xo.html
The best way to deal with RQers is Rage Quit hell. If you do it enough, you only get matched up with people that behave like you do and are away from other people who can take a loss like a decent human being.
Rage Quitters are marked with a red name so you know who to avoid
Wait... Pat is 35!?.
I dunno man, couldn't the K/D ratio thing be replaced with like... flags captured/flags lost or something, or whatever your game is about? If your game isn't about scoring kills, but your primary scoring statistic is kills, then your game IS about scoring kills.
Rule numba 1 bout the Kobayashi Maru: dont talk about the Kobayashi Maru
ono living the easy life getting FGO dough
Dog allowed to yap in the background as a podcast is being recorded is quintessentially Pat
Brief SuperEyepatchWolf reference
That thumbnail... 👨🍳 💋
I hated when Battlefield included kills and deaths. Pat is correct. There were people that wouldn't play the objective and only cared about K/D. The only stats that should be tracked are the ones that actually win rounds.
Now this gets tricky with games like Battlefield or Hunt: Showdown. Even though they have objectives, killing and not being killed makes completing the objectives easier.
16:30 I need to check with more people who are playing, but based off Sajam and several people's experience in the comments, it seems like the game might be suffering from one-sided rollback SFV-style. If you are having a smooth experience in one match, it's likely that the player on the other side is having a laggy match, and vice verca.
I think it mainly happens if someone skips the intro/loading screens.
It really depends on where you're playing. PC users have reported a lot more issues than PS4/5 players have.
PS4 if skip intro runs normal to rare slight hiccups. PC after 2 patches a little more noticeable but few from between. Unfortunately runs on wifi due limited options.
I came to terms with not being the best at anything when I was younger so losing or not getting mvp never bothered me but what I still cant get around is not getting credit for achievements I've done or getting the blame for shit I didn't do (not the hottest take but it ought to be said). When I'm working my ass off to get a kill and then come out with an assist or when my teammate kills me for a fucking power weapon I was using or when some shithead fucks up my trailer at work because they cant stack a wall to save their life THAT'S when I get just a slightly bit irritated.
I don't understand rage quitters. There was only one time I actually quit an online match, and that was in Injustice 2, they technically had an option for AI only online matches with players custom characters. I didn't know you had to watch the whole thing, since in most other games with AI matches you can just fast forward the results. So that was a learning experience. I'm only really upset if I lost if 1. The person I was playing against was blatantly using some kind of cheating device (not necessarily fighting games, but like guys with super speed in a shooter) or 2. The match making thing pits me against someone way out my league, like I will admit in SFV I am comfortable in bronze rank, but once I got put against a gold rank player. But that doesn't upset me nearly as much as the first issue of cheaters.
I have most of those DOA4 0pt achievements lol
I lost in Strive about 100 times last night with maybe 10 wins in total. And i tell people how much i lost. Often 20 times per person. I think i got better at the potemkin match-up, so i took at least that.
WINS GO DOWN!!!
Welcome in ehrgeiz
I think I've finally played enough video games where the numbers just blend in at this point. Maybe I'm just getting drunk too often whole I play fighting games is a better excuse though, and I just can't see them lmao
its the fifth game in a series its not that weird
Having ADHD the negative emotions just sneak up on you without noticing until it his a boiling point. I wasnt diagnosed til 18, and without any coping mechanisms, the 2 times as a young teen i broke shit it was over smash 4 and i basically fucked myself. The first was one of the cheap wii pro controllers modeled like a gamecube controller with the yoshi design. That one just felt like shit and i regretted it after but i was able to get another one with pocket money and i learned not to break that one. The other i was playing with the gamepad in on the bed and i threw the controller down on the bed without thinking cuz like whatever soft bed no problem,,,, OOOPS THATS RIGHT WHERE THE GAMEPAD IS OH GOD OH FUCK I BROKE MY GAMEPAD SCREEN OH FUCK. That was YEEEEEARS ago, and only a few months ago was i finally able to replace it. But yeah parents need to just leave it up to their kids to earn the money for the shit they break, ESPECIALLY the expensive stuff. Itll learn them how to respect their stuff and chill the fuck out REAL QUICK when the consequense is, cant play that video game til you bust your ass to replace it.
Hide kd until the end of the match
My favorite part of this whole business is people finally realizing that rollback is not a miracle solution and that people parroting e-celebs about how "Netcode is a fixed problem" were massively delusional. Type Lumina uses GGPO as well so you can't weasel your way out of it by saying "well their inhouse solution is bad, this wouldn't have happened if they used X". Maybe now we can have actual discussions about the quality of a game's netcode implementation and the importance of wifi indicators rather than the asinine "If it has rollback it's good, if it doesn't it's bad" that has been going on for the last year.
Underrated comment: Rollback isn't the holy grail, it's a tool, an extremely useful one but one that must STILL be used in conjunction with other networking techniques.
My mom would often say that I was smart, but what stuck with me was when she said, "You're very determined." THAT made me unwilling to accept failure in problem solving without trying my absolute hardest. To this day, I work in repair and technician focused industries in my day job.
ono ruined sf. what?!?!?
Couple of random thoughts from someone who's dabbled casually since Act Cadenza days:
Feels like the game has taken one step forward in terms of graphical fidelity (and to their credit, the spritework is beautiful), but taken three steps backward in terms of game complexity.
Rapid Beat autocombos are a nice introduction to the game but it shouldn't have been at the expense of Reverse Beats, which was a unique mechanic that offered excellent combo depth.
The loss of the Crescent/Half/Full Moon style systems was unfortunate, but as far as rebooting a game goes I guess it's an understandable thing to cut.
As an ad for the Tsukihime remake essentially I can understand cutting some of the other characters not directly in the core story like Sion and Wallachia, but where's Nrvnqsr? I demands the HOAAA
Where's the new mix of the Melty Blood theme?
I read a Steam comment that "This Melty Blood isn't for you, old man" and honestly that might just be true. I wanted it to hit me like DMC5 and instead it hit me like DmC: Fine and serviceable as a game, but I'm still gonna feel sad about what it could have been.
reverse beat is in type lumina and nero isn't in the remake
Wasn't the original Melty release, pre-expansions, pretty bootleg, too? I imagine they have plenty of plans to expand over time, add new characters and mechanics, correct problematic ones and adjust the game's balance, that sort of thing.
@@yukiminsan Nero isn't in the remake? Weird but I guess that makes sense.
Its whatever. The roster is more important and it is bland.
@@BoloJolo He's present for a short in-text cameo in one scene, but he doesn't appear in person at all, he isn't the midboss of the Near Side routes anymore. Many speculate that he's either going to be put in Sacchin's route, or in any of the other Far Side routes.
I stopped playing fighting games just because of the online community, it's bad enough when you always losing every match it just stops being fun after a while when you see no improvement, it also doesn't help when your constantly being insulted for sucking at the game, the last match of UMVC3 I ever played was against a guy who was spamming Wesker's teleport in the air where it was hard to reach him, while Morrigan kept using the assist so build up his meter, he managed to kill my entire team except for Dr Doom, I finally caught a break when I managed to catch both his Morrigan and his Wesker in the finger laser, which I X factored into more finger lasers killing them both, then by some miracle I managed to catch his Dark Pheonix in Dr Dooms Level 3 I finally I managed to get a win, and what did I get for my efforts? Que the entire Lobby insulting me for using such a noob character like Dr Doom, that I suck, I got lucky ETC. That's when I finally had the realization why do I even play fighting games? I don't have fun when I win I don't have fun when I lose what's the fucking point? from then on the only time I played fighting games was to play Smash Bros with friends (which most hardcore fighting game players don't consider a real fighting game) or when a friend would bring one over and even then it was just to mess around, like finding all the dramatic finishes in Dragon Ball Fighter, or watch all the cringy cutscenes in MVCI never really for any of the Multiplayer content.
Much prefer the apathy quit
Why do I get the impression that our childhood is just one long mental session of Darkest Dungeon?
Autocombos hurt my soul. Its fine for games to have them for casual players. Just leave some dope games without them for the rest of us. Or at least let us turn them off or set up lobbies where you can choose weather to allow them. I just dont feel satisfied doing the occasional quarter circle. Command normals are where my heart and soul lay.
Just keep the win/lose ration visible only to yourself. Go through a page or two for people who want to see it and for the people that would rather be ignorant of that info. don't have to see it. Plus, let's be honest here I think after so many matches even if your memory is not completely pristine...you know if you're winning or losing more. You can feel it. It's a competitive style game. There will be winners and losers. Either get the fuck over it and strive to improve or stop playing. People are so overly emotional these days.
I understand children, but it’s a soft mentality by teens and adults. Just don’t play. It’s less stressful. It can’t feel good. The only caveat for me is the connection is dog shit. I’ve never rq, but I have moved on instead of giving someone a proper second match because of connection or the rare times I needed to leave right then.
To me a win loss ratio is like experience. Win go up, I've gained experience. Loss increases!? I've lost experience? Fuck this shitty ass MMO. Coz that's how it feels. It feels like when you play a game that randomly decided to be stuck in the past and thinks it's a good idea to take away experience.
I k ow it's not the same thing, but the feeling is the same and that's why I hate these ratios.
Also, just like people have the right to quit on shit connections I have the right to quit on matchups with opponents that I think are unreasonable and the game has just presented to me because it has a trash matchmaker.
I'll be real kinda burnt out on anime fighters. Dont get me wrong, Strive is dope especially with rollback i'm sure melty blood is good too but just ugh. Wake me when injustice 3 comes out.
You know, I've heard this discussion across so many competitive systems, i would personally be okay with paying for a game that acts like an actual parent.
What's that, you haven't played anyone of equal or higher rank in a month? you lose one rank. Keep that up for longer then 2 months? Ranked is sealed of for an equal duration. With an adequate, easy to understand warning before the consequence ofc.
People wanna be babies, treat them like babies.