The start of an Atari 8-bit repair-a-thon!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- It seems like TH-cam is filled with Commodore videos but little in the way of Atari 8-bit stuff. Let's change that by checking out the condition of these 6 machine so I can determine which will be featured on future repair episodes.
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Magnetic Screw Holder:
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Universal ZIP sockets: (clones, used on my ZIF-64 test machine)
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RetroTink 2X Upconverter: (to hook up something like a C64 to HDMI)
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A little tid-bit -- I noticed on re-assembly the "plaster" 800XL has MT 4164 DRAM. If you know these chips, they are always bad..... and sure enough, I tested them and, if I recall, 4 or 5 were bad. A fresh set of 4164 DRAM and the machine works flawlessly. I'll touch on this "repair" when I work on the other machines with faults. Thanks to those who mentioned the XL machines will go into the diagnostics if there is a RAM fault. That's a pretty nice feature! Remember, if you see MT 4164 RAM (specifically the 64k x 1 bit chips) them pretty much assume that at least some have failed. At this point, It is a safe-bet! (Other sizes of MT RAM seem OK, it's just the 4164 type.)
Hopefully that plaster doesn't have asbestos in it.
Black screens on Ataris are often caused by bad RAM.(it depends on the slot) so it would be a good idea to start from there.
The "Start" and space bar keys on the 600xl should also be a pretty easy fix(if it is a mechanical keyboard). I usually take the keycap off and spray contact cleaner straight at the "openings" around the plungers. After pushing the plunger many times and waiting for the cleaner to evaporate the keys work like new.
Had just watched a series on the 800XL on RMC. The self test is shown in the first video th-cam.com/video/aZE0ziQLVqU/w-d-xo.html
Hey Adrian the plaster Atari should appear some blocks on the ram section looks like something is wrong with the ram I was I remember from my Atari 65xe
UK viewer here. I got a 'proper' keyboard for my 400 back in '83 when I was a kid learning to type, but when I dug my 400 out of storage a decade ago I put the membrane keyboard back on it because it looks SO GOOD! That 70's colour scheme of browns and oranges. The 400 and 800 are such beautiful and nostalgic computers to behold. Thank you for all of your videos Adrian. Yours is the best vintage computing channel on TH-cam, and you really know your electronics... and have the tenacity to see your projects through. Best regards.
I too was one of the rare UK 400 owners, my mum wouldn't spraunce for a proper keyboard because the machine was just so expensive. I did get a couple small progs on one of the magazine carts published, wrote it using the Assembler cartridge and was quite fun underwater game with a sub.
I love the 400 keyboard it looks so retro but also sci-fi at the same time
@proper job
It definitely looks like it would be at home on the set of Star Trek ToS!
Was the membrane keyboard borderline unusable or just uncomfortable? I was thinking about buying a 400 but I don’t know
@@doomedtoobscurity3965 I like the Atari 400's keyboard. I never had any problems with it back in the day, other than you always have to look where your fingers are when typing, but the little ridge around the key really helps with knowing that your finger is in the right place. An example of a borderline unusable membrane keyboard would be the Sinclair ZX81, but even those have their charm.
I love the 8-bit Atari's and every time I see the inside of one I cringe at the keyboard ribbon cables.. :)
Its like Atari took the worse idea from their Radio Shack competitor, use a non coated ribbon cable that is guaranteed to get brittle and break between the keyboard and the motherboard. At least Atari spent the ~12 cents to socket it. Cheap-*ssed Tandy had an assembler solder that crappy cable to both PCBs.
Atari's 8-Bit line will always hold a special place in my heart. My very first computer was an 800 that barely worked when I got my hands on it, but we took the time to get it ship-shape, and that's probably what's started my love for computers in the first place. Ahhhhhh, the memories!
my Atari 800XL was my first love to... and I still have it, still works.. but it's in the closest. Now I wanna set it up again!!
For me too.
As a kid, i learnt how to tell that computer to do what i wanted. And i loved it. And I still do that, just to other computers :D
Sometimes i wonder, just how different everything would be if i never had access to one... 🤔
Was on the C64 team myself, but always wanted either a 400 or 800.
@@maxxdahl6062 ooh, i wanted a C64 too. My dad fixes anything electronic, so as a kid, for a couple of weeks, i had a C64. Even though the diskette access time was awful, i still loved the mission impossible version of the C64.
It was a misterious system at that time :)
@@IvnSoft Yep, every system has it's positives and drawbacks, floppy speed was definitely a drawback for c64. It had killer graphics and sound for 1982 though. I REALLY wish I would have bought at least a 400 about 10 or so years ago back when they were still selling for like $30 on ebay.
Finally... the superior machines get some love! Looking forward to the repair-a-thon vids!
@BumbleBee Most of the time it's RAM or re-seating the chips. Other than that.. rock solid.
Only superior to the sinclairs.
With the basic cart installed, type ?FRE(0) to see the installed memory amount.
Candy (The 400) was originally to be just a games-only version of the system, with the keyboard being an optional external component.
Star Raiders wound up being the reason the 400 ultimately shipped with a keyboard.
Cool, never knew that.
For some reason, my bin-of-holding has an Atari 400 membrane keyboard in it... I think I scored it in a pile of old stuff that a workshop threw out ages ago. Since I never had any Atari myself, it took until TH-cam for me to find out what that actually was. I have it slated to act as an input for my hopefully eventually materializing Z80 computer build :D
don't do that to yourself! Find an old terminal with a real keyboard
The quality of the typing experience aside, the 800 XL’s keyboard has a really cool aesthetic.
Also: computer consoles with rocks in them? Get my boy Junkball Media on the case!
Instead of "Have you played Atari today?" Adrian has "Have you fixed Atari today?" 🎶
The Atari 400 had exactly the same processing power as the 800. The only meaningful differences were that the 800 had the RAM expansion slots, the real keyboard, the second cartridge slot and the video DIN output socket. The aftermarket quickly worked out that the 400 could be upgraded to 48K RAM with a bit of soldering.
did anything ever utilize that second cartridge slot?
My 400 was upgraded to 48k. I also made an external keyboard from a keyboard I bought on Computer Shopper. My brother helped with a composite output. it was mess of wires when I was finally done with it.
@@Rorschach1024 I've forgotten most details about them, but the utility and extension cart, Monkey Wrench used the right slot. I came along after the two-slot 800s, so used a Monkey Wrench II for later XL/XE one-slot machines. As I recall, the magazine ads for Monkey Wrench at least implied that theirs was the only product that made use of the right slot.
@@Rorschach1024 There were 13 carts that needed the right-hand slot, all of them utilities of some kind. The most well-known was the Monkey Wrench/Monkey Wrench II.
@@Rorschach1024 yes, but not much. A couple of companies sold real time clock carts, and there was an 80 column cartridge and a couple of others. I don’t think Atari ever released anything for it.
After my first computer an acorn atom the Atari 400 was my first "full colour " computer and was very expensive at £499 here in England.
I really missed the full stroke keyboard of the Atom so I did that mod with the keyboard.
I think it cost about £150.
Eventually I finished up with a 48k memory in it and only had it in that form for about 6 months before getting a 1200 xl and later a 130xe.
Oh the money I've spent on expensive Ataris...and every one of them played star raiders perfectly.
Ouch, another £150! The Atom keyboard is fantastic, don’t blame you one bit. I’d almost be inclined to see if I could’ve wired the Atom’s matrix into the 400 somehow! But that would of course take a lot of work to put it back into the Atom.
34:40 With all the rocks in it, maybe that Atari was used for mining (get it, mining!? 🤣)
34:30: It wouldn't be an Adrain's Digital Basement home computer repair video without the traditional contemptuous disregard for RF shielding. ;-D
Well, at least he doesn't break out the Dremel just because he doesn't have the right screwdriver....
I wonder how many near perfect 8bit computer went into the trash simply because of a not fully working keyboard. I'm guilty of this as well. At the end of the 90's when I was a teenager I threw away a Commodore C116 with Datasette and joystick, because two of its horrible gummy keys were not working anymore. Otherwise it was working perfectly. Today that machine on ebay is worth something between 300-600€ here in Europe, depending on its condition. With my knowledge of today I'm pretty sure I could've fixed it. It was by no means a great nor even a good machine. But it was my first computer and I'm sorry that I threw it away, just because it had a *fixable* keyboard issue.
I'm guessing the plastered 800XL was tossed in a dumpster when people were redecorating, and someone salvaged it after it was covered in waste plaster and other detritus, I've often been tempted by salvages in skips over here that looked okay from one angle, but then saw they'd had plaster or cement tipped all over them, nothing valuable, just me being a kleptomaniac... :P
“We have a fault!…Alright!” ~Adrian Black 2022
Hah! That cracked me up! Love seeing you happy to have something to troubleshoot and fix!
Imagine if all of them were fine and he's like "Well this video was undramatic!"
Not long after I upgraded my Atari 400 with The B Key 400 keyboard I purchased a 130XE, go figure.
I love it! More Atari 8 Bit content! :D
Probably RAM issues with the black screen 400, and definitely the one that went into the self-test.
Just so's you knows, even on the XL series keyboards, the Console keys (Start, Option, & Select) are a little special and are read by a different chip from the main keyboard keys. Pokey reads the main keys, and the Console keys & Joysticks are read by the C/GTIA.
IMHO, Invest in a FujiNet first, you can use it with any of the 8-bit computers as an SD card-based floppy replacement, on top of the sweet online stuff you can do with it.
20:15 For the third 400, I had similar output on my 800 a few weeks ago, and had to replace the GTIA and the CPU on the back daughterboard. You can use a WDC 65C02 instead of finding an old 6502B if needed, but you’ll need to tie the bus enable pin high.
Funny how keyboards seemed so challenging in the 70s and 80s and now that we’ve commoditized them, we’ve switched to banging our fingers on flat glass all day!
And that's why we need sliding phones with keyboards 😭
Im glad some Atari 8bit computers are getting some love for a change. Sadly they tend to be deep in the C64s shadow and tend to get forgotten even tho they are still quite good computers in their own right and deserve some time in the sun
I'd trade a c64 for an Atari any day
it was purely a matter of marketting that c64 beat out atari in the 8 bit world. technically, the atari 8 bit machines were superior. the man that made them so also made the amiga superior to the atari 16 bit machines, and for the same reason, he wasn't afraid of putting dedicated chips into them
@@robcat6377 Atari had pokey chips, quick off hand what is the name of a custom chip specific to Amiga?
@@petevenuti7355 atari had pokey and antic, amiga had a dozen or so custom chips, and even one that is commonly called a custom chip called kickstart, which was a rom iirc, but i admit, i don't know that much about amigas, i was an atari man until the very end (a mega 4 st with the external hdd was my last atari)
Off the top of my head, the Amiga had Paula, Denise, Agnus and later Fat Agnus. Atari had Antic, Pokey, CTIA and GTIA... I seem to remember.
Thank you for showing some Atari 8-bit love! You should reserve one 800XL for all the upgrades! Ultimate 1MB, Video Board XE for XL, Stereo POKEY, Rapidus speed upgrade, SDrive Max, maybe even Incognito, SIDE3 cartridge, SpartaDOS X, Fujinet, and more!
Atari solved the 1200XL compatibility problems with The Translator boot disk, though FixXL works better.
That last 800XL going right to Self Test shouldn't be doing that without a keyboard. Hopefully the PIA or POKEY aren't damaged. The RAM may have some bad chips or the support logic might have faults.
Rapidus is flakey, cant recommend that.
Yep Andrew Clegg hit the nail on the head ... The Rapidus is Flakey, but only when used with the U1MB board. seems the software can't get around the hardware clashes that 'Can' happen. Great when no U1MB, but U1MB is a great upgrade to useability :) So Is Rapidus when no U1MB in the same computer !!
I always wanted to have those Ataris specially the 800 but it's hard to find and seeing you have a ton of them is just waaaaaa
Are you able to start a museum like RMC? You have so many beautiful computers with nobody to play with them except you. If it's possible, maybe consider it? Keeping Portland "weird" and all that.
I was just talking to a friend about trying to do something like that in NY.. I wonder if a crowd fund would be worth it...
Atari's tend to be tanks and C64's well don't do as well.
Heard in the day a BBS using ATARI using one over two years 7/24 no issue.
The Commodore BBS had five in rotation.
The weakest points with old machines, all membrane keyboards oxidize with time.
Flaky power bricks 600/800 XL's, XE improvement - can suicide the computer.
Flaky memory chips killing a bit or two.
Sometime an abused ANTIC/GTIA and POKEY for graphics and sound.
Never heard a SALLY issue. special 6502C (with halt pin to work with ANTIC)
1200XL first OS rework after 400/800 - lasted 6 months around beginning of year - too expensive and incompatible OS changes.
600XL & 800XL released later in fall as cost reduced machines.
1400XL & 1450XL to be released later with speech chip, modem, and floppy drive. Never happened due to 1983 Warner Comm. losses and Tramiel buying the home computer division after quitting Commodore or Gould firing him at CES.
There are a handful of 1400XL/1450XLs built post ATARI from pro-type boards and gutting 1200XL for parts.
Tramiel further cost reduced the 600/800 XL's into 65XE and 130XE models.
Yesss, i love the Atari 8 bit line and rapair-a-thon video's ❤👍👍
PAL palette is different than the NTSC palette.
I read at the time that in some corners, the 400's awful keyboard was valued due to its imperviousness to liquids
That final (plaster) 800XL looks like it was having trouble locating the RAM using the diagnostics. The ROM test seemed to work fine, but no RAM was then detected and tested. Looked like all of the 4164 DRAM's were socketed, so it could be worth raiding your recent donation of RAM chips to see if they can be used to resurrect the machine.
Clearly the last one went to a bar one day and got "plastered!" ;-)
Atari 400 was my first computer (my first PC was a 386 Windows 3.0).
To this day I'm still not the best typer. Was it due to the 400s bad keyboard? It certainly didn't help.
The original 800 was a beautiful looking 8 bit machine - I always wanted one. The XL models were just gross, generic looking plastic chunks. Even with the torturous membrane keyboard, the design of the little 400 is 10x more appealing in design to the XLs.
RF shield going in the trash? But that's easy to fix! Just needs a bath in evaporust.
If that qualifies as "very rusty" for you, you've not seen some of the seriously mistreated ones out there!
Good thing plaster isn't conductive when dry! XD
I'd bet somebody out there has made a key-switch style replacement keyboard for Ataris. Can't be that hard, right?
Actually, the 1200XL was the first of the XL models to come out. The 600XL and 800XL came out later replacing the 1200XL.
The very first computer I ever owned, way back in 1987 or so was an Atari 400 with an upgraded keyboard exactly like the one you have. I still have one key from it. If I remember correctly it was dropped and broken, and back in the day I didn't know how to fix it. Later, I think what was left of it was lost in a move.
You can't have my key... sorry. You can 3d print one maybe.
Or maybe you can have it. It isn't the reset key though.
I have kept that key all these years... crazy. I got a 800xl not long after then an 800 and C64's etc., but always loved the design of the 400. I really liked the design of the Timex Sinclair 1000 too. I had a couple of those.
My best guess for that hole would be 1/4 inch headphone jack.... That would likely explain why they removed the speaker, it'd keep kids from being obnoxious with loud games in the school library, which is where this machine was likely used.
The holy grail cart to get is the assembler one, man you could brew some potent games and stuff even better if you had the disc drive over the uber expensive tape machine. Imagine in my own case having to type in thousands of lines of code on that horrible horrible keyboard, it was merciless. Think the best thing I did back then was modify the also very expensive tape game Kingdom, I factored in extra events and crisis and a very very low random chance the King went mad and executed you out of sheer pique, did that to the BBC's Yellow River as well but with that it was dragons and lions would invade giving the game a much more difficult challenge :D
I have to ask, what do you do with all of these machines after their working? I am just curious,.......
I learned BASIC on the family Atari 400. Typing on it was so aggravating but I loved it
ok im being a bit of a dick but gotta speak my mind micro waves are very dangerous but very good at restoring brittle plastic so make a bigger box for big plastic things yeah.......
27:57 That bus connector on the 600XL is slightly different than the one on the 800XL One of the products you could get for the 600XL was a RAM upgrade to give it 64k RAM and effectively turned it into an 800XL. The RAM upgrade needed 5 volts, which is supplied on the bus connector on the 600XL, but the 800XL does not have that pin powered with 5volts. Likely due to prevent damage from people trying to use that RAM upgrade intended for the 600XL to be used on the 800XL.
Other uses for that bus connector were SCSI controllers for use with hard drive and whatever else that worked on SCSI 1. A friend of mine ran a BBS on an Atari 65XE with a 20MB scsi hard drive connected to it. The BUS connector port on the XE machines is different (as it's shared with the cart slot) so there had to be an adapter to make it into an XL-style bus port so you could connect devices to it.
Hell yes, this is the kind of stuff I love right here. Repair-a-thons with completely unknown conditions. Retro or modern, it's always fun to repair and watch others make videos of it.
Because of the terrible feel of most vintage computers, I have started a crusade to make modern keyboards for any of them that I can get my hands on by either buying them or just borrowing them from those that are willing to loan them out for an extended period of time. So far, my crusade has started with the Tandy 1000 keyboard (not the HX or EX models yet) My next one will be an Atari 400 which I have being shipped me as of this comment. I plan to use either Cherry MX or Outemu blue switches because they seem to be the right balance for key pressure and tactility. Of course, any 2 conductor Cherry MX switch will work with my designs. In the case of the Tandy keyboard and others that already have keycaps, I plan to design adapters to mount them onto the Cherry MX switches. This is because any modern keycap will look out of place in a vintage keyboard.
@Adrian's Digital Basement please check for an email from me concerning that replacement Atari 400 keyboard. I have a few questions about it that would speed up my replacement keyboard PCB process for it.
083 is the production date year..
I programmed on the 400. Was such a pain
The 600xl is PAL
400 is missing RF shield on lid. Not perfect.
Adrian Great to see you finally getting round to some Atari 8 Bit machines .. More like the Amiga internally as even more specialist chips than a C64 with Pokey for sound, GITA for the 'TV interface' in PAL NTSC & SECAM versions' ANTIC a secondary CPU devoted to controlling the GTIA chip to get something on screen .. even the CPU has a mod to it as it has an additional line to support working with the ANTIC processor. (and later on FREDDIE to replace logic used for refresh used in later 800XL known as 800XLF and the XE line 65/130/GS these is also a memory management unit a PAL/GAL type chip to allow swapping out RAM for O.S ROM's so a replacement O.S could be loaded under the original ROM chip and swapped in to replace the ROM O.S. this was used in the XL line to provide compatibility with the original 400/800 series. the 130XE used an additional EMMU for bank switching the additional 64K.
If you get stuck with circuit diagrams etc. let me know as many online I've found are inconsistant / incorrect, and although I've not produced replacement for all models I have reproduced so for the XE range for my own use. (the 800XL being so very similar)
Black screen issue ..
"The old Black Screen of Death. Can be quite common amongst 8-bits - they are over 30yrs old tho' there's a couple of questions
to ask yourself BEFORE destroying/throwing out/ripping out of your antique:
1. easiest thing to try first - leave machine on for ten minutes....are any ram chips "overheating"? - swap these
2. if the board is socketed, rather than soldered you may have some "unseated" ICs.
and check to see if ram, OS Rom, Antic, MMU, PIA, CPU are fully in their sockets.
they can look "seated" but may not be. and oxidation/dirt/dust can cause faulty contacts. if your comfortable with doing so, you can remove them and reinsert. deoxit is your friend
3] if still a black screen try this (turn TV volume up):
power up using OPTION key, wait five seconds, press SELECT key once, press START
do you hear the musical notes? if so your computer is working
now press HELP, then SELECT, the START
press different keys randomly....do you hear the keyboard BEEPS?
these are good signs that atari is fundamentally ok.
4] power supply may be a problem - it may not be supplying 5v. try another PSU.
5] RF or monitor output? if RF, does machine have a channel switch next to the RF output socket? try repeatedly moving it back and forth - it can get dirt inside and cause bad contact.
try a monitor cable - these are fairly standard these days and usually come in the form of monitor to scart, monitor to S-video and monitor to RCA varieties.
6] try booting with a Star Raiders cartridge in the slot -
If Star Raiders works then ALL three should be good.
this should narrow your fault down to PIA, OS Rom, MMU or Ram
Jon Halliday [FJC] has also mentioned that the OS Rom should be good too if Star Raiders runs from cart.
"This signifies that the cart should be run before the OS is fully initialised. The OS ROM still has to operate well enough to jump through $BFFE, and if the CPU manages to get this far then it's working anyway."
thanks Jon - always good to add vital info. "
hope this is of some help.
Hi Adrian I tried using Telegram something I had to setup to contact you, but not entirely sure it was yourself I was messaging in the end although did have your picture, it all looked correct, and I won an Atari 800. if it was your goodself answering in the middle of the night great but didn't seem to be you from the way you answered, nor the paypal address given for shipment payment, if this was you my appologies
Graham, as I had posted about on my channel the other day, this is scammer. I keep blocking these channels but they just create new ones and posting hundreds of replies.
@@adriansdigitalbasement Hi Adrian I'd missed the bit about the scammer's but kind of worked that out myself, but it did take a few messages to realise it wasn't you.. Let me know if I can be of assistance, although you always do well, in whatever you are doing.. Keep it up and Thank You
Although there are some basic similarities between the Atari 8-bit and Amiga, I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to call the ANTIC a secondary CPU. Rather, it's the front end of a two-chip graphics subsystem, performing DMA to load graphics data for the back end, which is the GTIA/CTIA chip, to generate the analog graphics signal with. The C64 similarly has a front end and a back end, but it's all on a single chip. One fairly unique thing about the ANTIC is that it has a display list, which is a list of modes to display on each row with a couple of flags to either generate a timely interrupt (DLI) or load an address, but a secondary CPU? Hardly. It can't even change color registers, which is a very common operation on the Atari, on its own--it has to get the actual CPU to do that. Coming from the VCS/2600 (also similar to the Atari 8-bit) perspective, the ANTIC does take the place of the CPU in "racing the beam" to generate the display, so it might seem like a secondary CPU in that respect, but the C64's CPU (and those of most other 8-bit computers, for that matter) doesn't have to generate the display, either, as the VIC-II chip does that on its own.
The custom 6502C "Sally" CPU used in the XL/XE series does have tri-state address lines and other features to enable ANTIC DMA, but the C64's custom 6510 CPU also has tri-state address lines to enable VIC-II DMA, in addition to a 6-bit (all the pins that could be spared) I/O port to supplement the I/O ports of the two 6526 CIA chips. The 6510's I/O port is used to control memory bank switching (via the PLA chip) and the tape drive. All 64K of RAM is available except for the 2 bytes used to implement the I/O port (addresses 0 and 1), while on the 800XL, for example, only 62K of the RAM is available, as the memory-mapped I/O address space cannot be swapped out for RAM. By the way, the Atari 400 and 800 do not have the 6502C (except perhaps for their last production runs), but rather a standard 6502 with additional circuitry on the board to support ANTIC DMA.
No, I'm not trying to turn this into a contest (I own both computers and other vintage 8-bit computers, and I like them all), I'm just saying there is more similarity than you're implying here, and that most other computers have graphics coprocessors that work autonomously, too. If having a list of display modes (that's why it's called a display list) means the ANTIC is a CPU to you, then OK, but it doesn't mean that in my view.
Anyway, great information and advice here, although instead of trying another Atari XL/XE PSU, I would strongly, specifically advise using a better modern one instead. At the very least, one has to know which PSU designs do not have a tendency to fry these vintage computers. I just don't use C64 (and most other Commodore) or Atari 8-bit PSUs at all, because they don't fail safe, they fail destructively. One must always be careful with old PSUs. Even my Apple II PSUs don't get used until I rebuild and test them, starting with replacing the RIFA filter capacitors, of course, and these do not currently have the reputation of damaging the computers when they fail (just stinking up your computer and house for days when those RIFAs blow, and eventually they all do). I for one am just not willing to tempt fate and take the chance for no good reason.
most likely plaster got into that machine because it was in a building that caught on fire - firehoses spraying into a hole in a roof will cause ceilings to collapse and cover everything inside with wet plaster. ive been thru it a time or 2 and some of the stuff I salvaged looked exactly like that.
600XL and 1200XL? Wrong!
The 600XL was released with then 800XL NOT 1200XL. The 600XL did not sell well in the USA though it did in Europe. Also during the USA Computer Price Wars (1983/84) the price of the 800XL went below the price of the 600XL so the 600XL was removed from the US market. Both the 800XL and 600XL had BASIC built-in on ROM while the 1200XL did not. The 1200XL came out in '82/'83 while the 600XL/800XL came out in '84/'85.
The Atari 400 keyboard was based on an industrial key entry board for KIOS snd factory computer entry terminals and made for children. It is not as horrible as you stated. Those of us who grew up at the time used a pencil (eraser end) to hunt and peck with. Those who did type onit got the feel for the keyboard.
wow, id love to have one of the 400's, my old scoutmaster had one and it is what we did our Computers Merit badge on.it was a wild merit badge, the original was more ike something for engineers rather than general use and programming
The 400 could be massively upgraded, something I didn't know until it was relegated to the "garage".
The Atari 800 looks so good when compared to the Vic 20 with its tiny memory also when compared to a zx81 or spectrum the keyboards look quite good
It was also vastly more expensive than all those machines, mind.
Vic 20 was basically a budget system. It did good for it's price range.
Wouldn't the Atari 400 be a fairer comparison?
@@SonicBoone56 Yeah, 800 had a ton more ram, and was more expandable. 400 would definitely a better comparison.
close on the history. they wanted to expand on the capabilities of the 400/800 and refresh the lineup so they created the 1200XL. It wasn't trivial for them to go from the 48KB limit to the new 64KB size which was one of the reasons the new OS had too many compatibilities and was too expensive especially with the Commodore 64 out. For a lot of 400/800 software to run on the 1200XL, Atari released a translator but even then, there were still some software that didn't work on the 1200XL. I think part of the functionality of the translator disk was so it made the system look like it only had 48KB so that software worked. So they replaced it with the 600XL and the 800XL which was more compatible than the 1200XL with older titles and also being cheaper. Personally, I loved the 1200XL and it was just so modern and clean looking. It was my first computer. My dad let me pick. I had the Atari 2600 as a pre-K kid. And in kindergarten, our school was full of Atari 800 machines. So I wanted an Atari machine.
The 400 keyboard was also meant for kids, so to be kinda spill resistant.
Oh gods, the first computer I ever bought was an Atari 800XL, that's when it first came out. I programmed the Atari out of it.
I had a 400 which came with a mechanical keyboard and 48 K upgrade.
I learned BASIC on that Atari 400. I got it when I was 6 or 7 I believe. You wouldn't believe the huge box that little cartridge came in from Toys R Us.
As someone who has a Commodore only history (in Aus) I find these videos interesting. Thanks
That last 800XL has what one can euphemistically called flood damage.
hole in school Atari ... Kempston Lock before Kempston. So the Atari "doesn't walk off".
The XL and EX machines will autoboot into diagnostics if any of the RAM is bad. Try testing the RAM and replace as needed. The blackscreen XL could be bad RAM or could be a bad 6502. The 400 "parts machine" also looks like it could be a rad RAM chip, but you may want to check the CPU and Memory cards and make sure they are seated in the slots correctly before condemning anything else.
Yes spoiler on the 800XL, that was exactly the fault. MT RAM chips and I think 3 or 4 were bad -- I won't bother making a specific video of the repair, since it's so easy, but I'll just mention it when I get to fixing other ones. MT strikes again!
I had a working Atari 800 that was stolen from me when I moved. I liked that machine
Yes indeed, those "peanut butter and jelly proof" keyboards were terrible.
What we’re they thinking? That no one would ever do word processing on the Atari 400?
The My First Keyboard?
@@seanwieland9763 cost savings
@@seanwieland9763 The 400 was never supposed to be used for word processing. The 800 was, however.
@@JohnKelly2 Not so much, I think. Remember when Intel got caught crippling some of their 486DX CPUs (which included an FPU) to make the 486SX (no functional FPU)? They sold these at a significantly lower margin to compete against AMD's 386DX, and restoring the FPU functionality required purchasing a 487, which was a full 486DX with an extra pin that prevented the insertion of a 486DX and disabled the 486SX on the board so that it could take over. It was all marketing-driven fakery! Of course, later Intel came out with real and cheaper-to-make 486SX chips that did not include the FPU at all (smaller die size means lower cost and higher yield, which also means lower cost), which makes a hell of a lot more sense, but they wanted an immediate solution, so they faked it at first. 😄
So what's my point? Well, the 400 is pretty much the same computer as the 800, except that it was sold with a much lower margin with much smaller actual cost savings. They saved only a little money by not making it readily expandable to 48K, but majorly crippled its capabilities in this way (third-party solutions notwithstanding). The keyboard saved more, but likewise it crippled the 400 more than the cost savings justified (if the ultra-cheap VIC-20 could have a proper keyboard, then so could the 400). All of this was an excuse for charging twice as much for the 800 as the 400. They could have sold the 800 for much less, but to "justify" its much higher price tag, it had to be a lot more capable than the 400, so they crippled the 400 achieve that comparison, even though it didn't save them much money in terms of manufacturing.
The analogy I've made is clearly not exact, but the point is how fake all of this is, in some cases. The original 486SX had a lot less functionality and cost a lot less at retail, but was actually a full 486DX that was intentionally crippled and sold for less (but cost the same to make), just to satisfy a perceived need in the market. Similarly, the 400 is (very close to) a full 800 internally, but was crippled so that it would look as though it made sense to sell it at half the retail price. Or if they made a decent profit with the 400, then it was an excuse to give the 800 a premium retail price tag.
The Atari 400 is a fantastic machine, the equal of the 800 just without a 'proper' keyboard. I hate it when people, like Adrian here, just dismiss a computer because of it's keyboard or for some other minor reason, just because it doesn't quite live up to their expectations based on what they're used to using. It's the same with the ZX81. Both were ground breaking computers for their time that allowed LOTS of people to get into computing at an affordable price. As for the keyboard on the 800XL, I actually found it to be superior to the Commodore machines i.e. the VIC-20 and 64.
Well said. The 400 is great. Pretty much an 800 with 16K and a membrane keyboard at about half the price. 48K upgrade is possible, too.
@@gamedoutgamer yes, luckily my Atari 400 had already been upgraded to 48K when I received it 🙂
I agree with some of what you're saying, although the membrane keyboard of the 400 specifically is not really a minor reason if you do much more than play games on these computers.
The membrane keyboards were horrible on the 400. The keys played up after a while add to had to press then harder and harder over time
I had the 600xl and it was hard to find stuff for it
I used to skip school with my friend and we would play on the computer all day. We used to try and write stuff in 6502 assembler
Another friend had the 800, that had dual cartridge ports
Great machines although the 600xl was really disappointing
The 600XL could be upgraded to 64K, though, couldn't it? I mean back in the day.
Adrian: Braifly
Also Adrian: *writes Breifly*
Me: Briefly
Those 800XLs with the mechanical keyboards feel great when they're clean. I vastly prefer them over the 8-bit Commodore keyboards.
Me to especially with the Alps key switches.
I prefer the 130XE's keyboard, those type really well.
It depends on which type of keyboard you get. The "type 1" with the Alps key switches are pretty nice, but the most common (at least from what I've seen) "type 4" keyboards are nasty to type on. Unfortunately, my 800XL has a type 4, and I prefer my C64's keyboard over it (and I prefer my 800's keyboard over both).
The 400 membrane keyboards were great for kids with hands smothered in PB&J.
If the start button on the keypad AND on the machine can be used to start a game - is that the same for the self diagnostics?
I'm a little astounded at the amount of different 8-bit machines Atari produced over the years. All largely compatible with each other, with only slight improvements between them. They made the 400, 800, 600XL, 800XL 1200XL, 65XE, 130XE, 800xe, XEGS.
Commodore at the same time went in so many different directions. The pet line, Vic-20, C64, Plus-4 line, B128, and finally a few compatible machines, the 128 and 128D and a styling refresh of the 64, the 64C.
In addition, Atari produced the Atari 5200, which is almost nearly identical to the 8-bit line, but made intentionally incompatible with the 8bit computers because the home computer and the console divisions oddly competed with one another.
It tells you something about the different approaches of the different companies. Atari went the route of Apple, and tried to make 8 bit machines compatible with one another. Commodore just kept pushing what worked, and reducing costs of the motherboard, but also going in a bunch of different weird directions.
And with all that, and all those computers, Atari got old-sold by Commodore.
Commodore AV cables work on the Atai 8 bits
The 400's keyboard makes the original Spectrum's look like luxury!
LOL that's a first. I've seen a lot of nasty stuff inside old machines, but a rock and plaster?!? I wish I knew what this machine went through in its previous life. 🤣🤣
Schools would often mod the speakers with addition of a pot to control volume or headphone jacks when they either had a room of machines or just one machine in the corner of a class where other students would be working on other things. I would suspect that the hole is for something like that as it is a good place and about the right size.
Nice guess although the internal speaker in the 400/800 is only for the keyboard clicks and is a 1-bit output from the GTIA. The POKEY sound outputs to the TV/monitor.
@@PG-gs5vb True enough, although these clicks can be used for sound just like on the Apple II, and some software that was ported from the Apple II actually use this for sound instead of or in addition to the POKEY.
I typed in many programmes on the Atari 400, some of them many pages long, on that keyboard. It was rubbish, but as a kid, I didn't care, it was amazing!
It’s what you had, so I would imagine you got used to it and probably were somewhat proficient at it!
@@adriansdigitalbasement yep, towards the end the power connector got increasingly unreliable, and in it's final days I remember trying to type in programmes, while the atari 400 sat at a rakish angle, with a book under the power connector so that the weight of all that aluminium pushed the connect up to make it work! Where there's a will!
Never had enough memory!
I learned that if I made my program print program lines followed by char$(13) [return key] it will enter those lines into memory while running!
I set up a program to read in a few hundred lines from a txt file, gosub to those lines, in a loop , return and repeat.
memory paging to cassette 🤪
I used split screen, one line of text on the bottom for the purpose, if you didn't have the monitor, you couldn't even see the bottom line ...
Clearly you have found Bender's ancestor. Instead of getting drunk, it gets plastered. 🤣
I think you should move the metal shield from the broken 400 to the one with the missing shield for the benefit of _both_ machines. After you repair the lid, you're not going to want a bunch of unnecessary weight on it, adding strain to the hinges.
29:04 & 34:51 Yeah both of the 800XL are PAL machines, they could be easily identified by looking at Y2 and U21. The PAL units have these components while the NTSC units don't. For 600XL it's Y2 and U24.
That's no dust bunny, that's a dust vulture! It ate the bunnies!
35:26 yes, I would totally watch a repair video. Surely it's a power surge problem.
those "brick" power supplies, made entirely to screw the customer, would not just be impossible to repair, they would take your computer with them if they blew a component.
Yes, just like the C64 "brick" power supplies (the C128's power supply is fine, though, and can be used with the C64 and, for that matter, the Atari with the right adapters). Always avoid using these--they're vintage computer killers.
I'm going to hazard a guess by saying that last 800XL may have been used for some sort of industrial/construction purpose because of all the plaster in it.
Great video - excellent nostalgia. As a colour blind Brit I never realised Pacman was not yellow :-) and the speed thing - no wonder I got such great scores! Really enjoy your content. Thanks.
Which membrane was less miserable to use: Atari 400 or ZX81?
For me, the Atari 400 keyboard, at least when it's fairly new.
Adrian: The compatibility issue on the 1200XL was completely overblown. Atari responded by providing a free by mail Translator disk, which would load the 800 OS B into the ram under the OS, and vector it in.
Yep - I had a 1200XL back then and it was odd from my friends that had 800Xls (size, no PBI and the SIO didn't put out 5v so you needed a special 1200XL SIO -> Centronics cable that had a power brick....pita!) But, never had much compatibility issues with it. Later went for the 800XL for the PBI and the ICD MIO (and socketed chips for the easier Rambo upgrade). Ahh, the /|\ Atari dayz :)
It's a shame Atari wasn't able to make the 800 more competitive with the C64 considering how similar they are in specs.
The 800 came Out in the Late 70s while the C64 came Out in 82 so No.
@@nilswegner2881 What are you talking about? The Atari 800 line of 8 bit computers was manufactured until 1992.
The Atari had a long night and got plastered. 🤣
It's a little-known fact that Atari made three types of 800 XL machines: NTSC, PAL, and PLASTER.
Did they ever do a SECAM version of the 800XL threy certainly did for the XE 65/130's .. not sure about the plaster versiion of those tho. :)
@@grahamrolle3923 Tish, you spoke French! :)
Adrian love the video. A pity that only one of the 400's had a proper/ travel keyboard. Any chance of a better keyboard for these others, i.e. from Inhome Software (Burlington, Ontario, Canada). Ref the PAL machine, well done to you. The 'plaster' one, I'd love to know how it got so much plaster, look forward to seeing how that one works out. As you find PAL games slow, how about an NTSC/ PAL switch mod based arout the timeing crystal?
Takes more that just a Frequency change .. needs a GTIA & ANTIC chip change for proper compatiablity, along with extra component's if going from NTSC to PAL (appreciate these are PAL already) these additional components provide the PAL Colour (Color) burst frequency to the PAL GTIA on pin 16 (Not connected on the NTSC versions of GTIA)
@@grahamrolle3923 I was in part recalling how I have seen C-64 mods done to achieve the same thing done
That last Atari is clearly the military spec model --- it's been potted.
I had a friend with an Atari 400 with the membrane keyboard. Those were a pain in the butt to use.
Atari 600 24:24 the space key works. May just need a clean or re seating.
I found if you just hit the key over and over and it starts to work. Oxidation.
Been looking forward to this one for a while!
Can't wait for you to get into the repair phase of these. You made me get mine out of storage and they actually still work. Even my 810 drives with the Happy mod survived. I hope you can locate some working disk drives for future videos. I only have a few working software titles on disc as most went bad. Of course all the cartridges still boot.
Most of my disc from the 80s have survived (at least last I checked, maybe its time to test them out again.....)
The previous 800 repair video has two 810's sitting with these machines so he at least has those. =) Your Happy 810's are great!
I had a 600xl and an 800xl when they were new.
In the 1980ies, a guy started a Computer Store out of a trailer back of the tire store where he worked. He bought a BUNCH of Atari 800 systems (Computer, Tape Drive and Disk Drive) from a school system in Texas. He planned to sell them and I made a deal with him to go through each one cleaning, fixing and upgrading the memory. With NO support from Atari, parts, schematic, or diagnostics I got all the systems up and running and they sold as fast as I got them done. Those were the days!!! WHEN you could go to Radio Shack AND get the parts you needed to fix your computer!
I dont nos, but atari 800 remenber me The six million dollar man
24:24 - the very last moment the spacebar worked for 1 character! I don't know why but I like this computer looks.
27:00 - maybe the solder on the cartridge slot is broken, you know, high stress plugs and things like that can get this issue where the solder holding the component inside the PCB gets broken from all the movement. You might need to reflow it.
the XL and XE machines looked very nice!
2:26 The 1200XL was released in late 1982. The 600XL and 800XL were released a year later at the same time and the 1200XL was discontinued.
Yep - wondering if anyone else caught that. The 1200XL came out and there was a plan for a 1400XL and 1450XLD (both exist as unicorns in the wild and fetch some $$ on ebay). I remember pix of the 1450XLD back in the day and I wanted one soooo bad! The 600XL was the cost reduced version of the 800XL not the 1200XL.
yeah started with the 400 ... dad did not want to get a VCS/2600 .. upgraded to 800XL ... loved it ... there appears to be a Polish PL 800XL FGPA coming vapor hardware ...
#6 PAL - when broken use Plaster of Paris - that what the doctor did to my broken leg!
You have partial memory or support chip issues (74LSxx).
XL machines should boot into BASIC if the OPTION is not held down at boot otherwise it goes into self-test mode.
START key is for tape drive booting.
?Memory is working? as the screen mem at page 144 thru 160 (4K) is being displayed and the ANTIC/GTIA are providing the display. Page 0 & 1(stack) must be working. Otherwise scrambled video.
You should get a green square dot for each 1K x 16 by 3 rows for 48K, upper 16K is 10K OS and ANTIC/GTIA/POKEY/PIA hardware registers.
Why no BASIC??? Bad ROM chip? (XL Ver. B, XE Ver. C), try BASIC cart(Ver. A) or a short to option key line, GTIA register at $D01F for START/SELECT/OPTION keys.