Yes! That is one of the great features of your channel. That must have be an ugly crash scene. Amazing that the TWA was able to stop. I wonder how many hours in type the Cessna pilot had.
i worked for trans world express in the early 90s at we used 31 several times with our j31s. we did not need that much runway so it sped things. the bigger birds could use the 30s and we would go off 31. so as soon as you said 31 i knew exactly where it used to be. great video.
I know your comment's a year old but I have to laugh: I didn't know what a "j31" was so I searched, and it kept telling me it's a Chinese made fighter jet similar to the F-35. Jetstream 31s make a lot more sense, hahaha.
Runway 30R has a huge dip in the middle of it... I have thought about this accident many times as i have lined up on 30R. The Cessna might have very well been hidden below the visual horizon due to that dip in the middle of the runway.
Thank you for covering this. TWA is easily my favorite airline past or present and is one of the reasons I became a pilot. When they went under, I was a freshman in HS and it broke my heart. There was nothing like landing at Lambert KSTL in the 90’s and seeing an ocean of TWA aircraft. Between it and the enormous American operation at KDFW, it was an incredible time in aviation. The enormous variety of airlines and aircraft types was so inspirational. Flying commercially in the U.S. during the mid 90’s was such a trip and a plane spotters dream. It hasn’t felt the same since.
I was watching this and thinking the exact same thing!! Grew up in the Air Force and I feel the same could be said for the military as well..there used to be such a wide variety of planes from both sides and seems like that is dwindling, makes me sad as well.
Same. I remember when you could actually go into the terminal at Lambert and watch the planes coming and going right there in front of you as you were waiting for a flight to come in, sadly those days are long gone.
Thank you for covering this! I grew up right near this airport. I met an elderly woman as a child who told me she remembered watching Charles Lindberg practice in a field near her house when she was my age. I loved planespotting at Lambert; this is the only accident that happened aside from the fatal 1944 glider crash at Lambert Field. I don't even have to open my eyes to know it's 5:57 a.m. as the first rumble of jet engines starts over my house, the first flight of the day arriving at 6 a.m. Unfortunately I don't planespot much anymore as all I see land there are Southwest 737s. I sometimes still think I see MD-88s landing (30R lines up with my house.) Wikipedia says they retired them June 2020 but with COVID who knows? I know Delta used to fly those but I can't make out the livery. Fun fact about Lambert (nobody calls it STL) they tore down a whole subdivision and built a tunnel for Lindbergh Boulevard to make a new runway in the late 90s. They were right in the middle of it during 9/11. They should have stopped construction, but now we have a two BILLION dollar stretch of tarmac that gets used, on average, 3% of all flights.
He also failed to turn on is navigation lights according to a lineman that I knew at the airport. So the airplane was sitting on Runway three-zero right with no lights on. The air traffic controller up in the what is now the Old Tower, could not see the Cessna sitting on the runway because of Backscatter lighting from the MidCoast ramp. It was The Perfect Storm.
Had that rule change been made for turning on the beacons been implemented? After the USAir crash at LAX, that was one of the procedure changes proposed.
This is not true. The investigation team did find that the switches were in the off position, but the emergency response team reported they had adjusted switches in that panel in their attempt to shut down the right engine after the crash. Testing on the light filaments themselves indicated that the navigation lights were lit at the time of the accident, but were inconclusive about the wingtip strobe anti-collision lights.
I didn't remember this accident. Glad you found it and talked about it. Definitely going to look up the full NTSB report on this one as it sounds like a lot of little issues combined into one big issue. Keep up the great work!
I grew up in St. Louis and remember this crash. When TWA was flying out of Lambert you could get a direct flight to almost everywhere now there are no where near as many lfights nowadays.
It's truly sad, isn't it? Back then, most every major city in the US had an airline hub based at it's airport. Now, you have huge terminal buildings sitting vacant in places like STL, CVG, MEM, MKE, PIT, and RDU, which in the 90s were filled with the sights, sounds, and aromas of the hustle and bustle of the glory days of aviation in the US!
I was sad when NWA was absorbed into Delta and MSP stopped being a major hub....that was always great to fly into or out of, especially during summer thunderstorm season in the Plains (!)
I used to fly or layover in lambert quite a bit. I remember when they built the east terminal concourse D could be used as a connection, so I'd basically use that entire length for exercise before a long flight, much like I guess a mall walker would. Can't do that anymore. I still wonder if they moved a few of the moving walkways from D over to C. Some of the labeling on the walkways certainly looks old enough to be the case.
I'm in Cleveland and I can't even find direct flights to Austin or San Antonio. I don't remember it being like this years ago but maybe I'm mistaken. Not many flights in CLE anymore it seems...
I was on another TWA plane that night at Lambert. They had just pushed us back and we started towards the taxiway when it happened. We had no idea what happened for a couple hours, until we finally taxied to the runway, and then saw what was left.
@Andrew Yes - exactly what I was about to type! Well, not exactly - you said it better so 'what Andrew said' lol . Every time a question popped into my head he immediately answered it. Perfect!
When I was a student pilot, I was part of a flying club at the local NAS. Because they were often using the main runways for carrier practice, most of the smaller civilian planes took off and landed on a taxiway designated B (Bravo), then either North or South to designate the direction for landing.
Great work, the way you research and narrate and I quite enjoy all of the different plane footage. If you could publish these as podcasts as well, it would be amazing!
I remember this accident. I flew for a Delta Connection from 98-2008. ATP 8000 hours CFII and Check airman. STL was considered a less desirable overnight so.... being junior in 1998 then upgrading to captain in 2001 I found myself in STL a lot in the summer and winter months and remember the taxiway being operated as a runway we always briefed this oddity because it sometime lead to an odd ground clearance that would confuse pilots that had. It been there before or in a long time. Also, the taxiway... turned into a runway still had the feel of a taxiway at first glance. If I remember the ground clearance from the terminal to the FBO (where we repositioned for the overnight) would give clearance to cross 30R and the taxi way runway at the same time. I can’t remember what they called the short runway for sure. I thing it was 30R 30C and 30L. I flew in the day after the accident. I remember that I wasn’t surprised to hear that someone had become confused and taxied onto the wrong runway. I was a check airman when I lost my medical. I was also a FAA good seal flight instructor. I really was very careful and flew to standards because of my position flying with new captains and first officers. Taxiing can be the most challenging part of being a pilot. Airports are complex and often confusing layouts. I spent a few minutes before a flight and in route reviewing the possible taxi scenarios and any notices about construction or changes in the airport operating procedures. I can tell you that taxiing mistakes are easy to make and I’ve seen some very experienced pilots at majors, regionals and general aviation make significant mistakes. I particularly hated taxiing at Boston at night. I don’t know why, but that airport was confusing once on the ground.
Lambert did eventually get a new runway to handle that traffic. Problem is, by then American had taken over TWA and St. Louis lost all that hub traffic to DFW. Nice new runway with passenger numbers being just a fraction of what they once where.
Thank you! You seem like a very caring person and are very caring about the quality of the video's you produce. Just found your channel. I should be out working but.... Just had to give you a fat head. Thanks again... (Rarely comment)
I remember when this accident happened! It was really sad to see the wreckage of the Cessna, knowing that the two occupants did not survive. Great TWA footage for the video! I lived in St. Louis in TWA's peak years. STL had several fantastic spotting locations where 90% or more of the airport could be viewed. TWA had around 2000 daily movements then, so there was almost always traffic coming and going. Also, from the early 80s into the 90s there were a dozen or so other airlines that had scheduled flights, but the highlight of many spotting trips was the six aircraft formations of the Missouri Air National Guard that would launch in a 2x2x2 arrangement and land in the standard military formation landing where the six F4s or F15s would fly over the runway in formation, then peel off one by one and circle back to land in rapid succession. On numerous occasions one might see four or five Guard fighters all rolling on the same runway at the same time. The more rare, icing on the cake treat, was when McDonnell Douglas would test a new F18 by doing a straight up verticle climb from take off to 10,000 feet! Ahh, the great memories of where I fell in love with plane spotting! L1011s, 727s, DC9s, MD80s, Metroliners and SF30s ruled the scene, and it was beautiful to watch the lovely, very busy scene that was STL in the last two decades of TWA! I sure do miss those days!
I think having them numbered makes sense. You immediately know which direction the take-off/landing end of a runway is just by hearing it's name, and can plan accordingly.
I believe that the pilot, who, as stated, was likely tired and not fully attentive, drew the conclusion that the air traffic controller was directing him to the runway he had previously landed on and he was therefore confident he was navigating properly on the airport and exhibited no hesitation in taking off. A person has a multitude of thoughts running through his/her mind in preparation for a flight, and if fatigue disallows the pilot to cognitively focus on each individual detail, an essential one is likely to be missed. BTW, the graphical content and narration of your videos are excellent. Your attention to detail and the extent of research you obviously perform on each one is exemplary.
All I know is that even as a mechanic I understood to never ever cross a runway until given permission. At night it may have been a little more difficult but still, I think it was fatigue here.
There's this airport in Brazil called Salgado Filho International Airport (SBPA), in the city of Porto Alegre, where taxiway D (which is parallel to the single runway - 11/29) can be used as a GA runway. It's very rare, though, since D is in the north side of the airport , whereas the GA aprons are in the south side, not to mention commercial aviation needs to use taxiway D when runway 29 is active. I'm guessing the whole thing is a relic from when the airport used to have way less airline traffic and only had one small terminal, as opposed to the 2 bigger ones it has now.
I once landed in a taxiway in my city airport (SCL), I'm not a pilot, but that was clearly a taxiway, you can still see it if you see it in Google earth in october 2019. Also, the runway is 17L
was the section of the runway he drove on initially even marked as a runway, the formal runway seemed to begin after the displaced threshold... I think Kali airport in Columbia uses a Taxiway as a runway (or a semi-disused runway as a Taxiway) whilst in Iceland, a few of the smaller (but commercial) airports, whose runways were widened to host strategic aviation, would at times clear smaller planes to takeoff diagonal to the marked runway heading, in order to keep them nose into the wind... Glasgow-Scotland UK meanwhile, confuses many pilots by having both aquatic and cement runways run as one airport
To me one major detail that is missed is why didn't the controller mention to the Cessna pilot " Hey, your radio isn't clear, please get it repaired." A simple mention of "get the radio fixed," prevents the crash, and could have lead to the pilot deciding to spend the night in STL, over trying to go home.
Hey Ryan. I just want to let you know that your videos are simple and interesting. They help me through bad days, which are about a third of my total days, nowadays. I suffer from an inexplicable form of insomnia, one which makes sleep impossible for me (no exaggeration) that began in early 2015, during which I spent two years, 2015-2017, practically awake 95% of the time. I'm pretty sure this insane period of two years during which I kinda, sorta slept maybe one hour a week, has had some damage on my brain. I treated myself with alcohol from 2017-2019, 190 proof spirits - you know, 95% grain alcohol, which almost shut down my liver. As a result, I now am the proud owner of a multitude of disabling conditions which have manifested over the years as a result - the still, ever present complete inability to sleep, chronic fatigue, ADD, PTSD, panic attacks, episodes of depersonalization, severe depression, lack of motivation and interest in life, suicidal ideations... I'm practically dysfunctional now. I'm on a pharmacies worth of meds, including sleep meds that work, thank God, anti anxiety drugs - Valium and Xanax, that work sometimes, but which I'm afraid of getting addicted to, depression drugs that don't really make much difference, and Adderall, the most important med other than sleep meds, which helps what otherwise is my inability now to focus on what's going on around me to an extreme degree. Adderall is effective for helping be me to feel somewhat normal, mostly. None of these meds are a cure though, and even with a constant supply, they're still merely treatments for symptoms for which no cures exist. It sucks having to depend on meds. Anyway, some days are better than others. This day, Sunday, August 9th 2020, is particularly bad. It's around noon, so I have many more hours to endure before it's time for sleep meds. Anyway, yeah. Long post. I just wanted to provide a little backstory of my condition, and how, due to the simple, interesting nature of your videos, they go a long way toward providing me some relief when days like these happen, during these relentless hours of suffering through awake time. Thanks, Ryan. -Ash
That’s no good mate , if you only take them meds when required and as prescribed by doctor you will not even know if you get addicted, it’s quality of life don’t be afraid if you get addicted it’s not the end of world, it’s what you do if you have addiction like buy on the black market or steal money to buy , if the meds help you just take them
@@coca-colayes1958 Yeah, it's no good. It's a bad situation all around. I do take my meds, as directed by my doctor. The reason why addiction terrifies me though, is because I was hooked on opiates - pain pills - morphine mainly, which started with a simple toothache that wouldn't go away for years. From 2000 until 2007 I was addicted to opiates because I was prescribed them after oral surgery. I kicked those by myself, by experiencing hell for about a year. Then seven years after that, when life seemed to be returning to normal, this insomnia, along with all the other associated conditions, crept up, along with another new addiction, alcohol - the only thing I knew about to battle insomnia, because nothing else worked - which I kicked in rehab. Now I have to take addictive narcotics simply to function. Ironic. So that's the source of my terror concerning addiction. I never seek it out, it always finds me, in one form or another.
As a retired heavy duty truck mechanic I have to ask: how does a mechanic fail to put O-rings on a critical part not just one but three times? And didn't check for leaks? That shop needed a shake-up from top to bottom!
It's not just taxiways converted to runways that can cause confusion. It can also happen the other way around. Infamously Singapore Airlines 006 tried to take off from a runway that was only used as a taxiway at the time. I see there is already a video of that as well on this channel.
Sounds to me like the C-421 pilot was lost. The problems with his radio would also contribute to the accident. Thanks for your videos, they are very informative.
I was there the night this happened. My flight to Seattle was at the gate to the right of this flight. I remember clearly the pilot telling us that it was our turn to push back but that we were going to let this plane (the one that hit the Cessna) go ahead of us, as there is already another plane on the ground waiting for their gate. Sure enough, 10 minutes later we pushed back and began taxiing. I buried myself in a book I just purchased. At some point I remember thinking that we had sat in one spot for quite some time and when I looked out my window I saw emergency lights everywhere. Very shortly after that the pilot informed us of what had occurred and advised us to prepare for a long wait, as the airport was likely to be closed for some time. We did get clearance and were able to take off. Seems like the total delay to our destination was about 2 hours. One of those "if only" moments. Would the flight crew on my plane had the same reaction to avoid a larger disaster?
I love how you summarize the investigation videos compared to the original MAYDAY SERIES, but I will appreciate it if you can either get actual footage of the incident or produce some sort of animation instead of repeating videos of planes taking off and landing
STL is a very confusing airport. The controllers use to have a short patience thresh hold. If you got lost on the taxi ways they would send you to what we used to call the penalty box. They'd let you sit there for a long time.
You didn't mention the Cessna pilot's age. I wonder if this could be a factor. As we age the cataracts that form in all of our eyes scatter blue light more than other colors. This can make it harder to tell that a while light with a blue filter, such as would have been used to mark taxiways in the 90's, was blue. This would then make the contrast with the white runway lights less pronounced. This effect is even larger when it comes to blue LEDs when they are used near other light sources. This can even make flashing blue LEDs on emergency vehicles impossible to see against headlights, even though the person can easily pass the eye test for driving. This is why blue LEDs should never be used without red LED's to distinguish police or emergency vehicles. Now blue LEDs used by themselves would still look blue even with moderate cataracts. Blue LEDs (with a tempature controlled heater) would make the best taxiway light possible with current technology.
runways are numbered based on their heading. For example if a runway faced due east its heading would be 090. So that means the runways would be numbered 09. If it faced due south its heading would be 180, so the runway number would be 18. in this case both runways were more or less parallel. Im assuming both runways had a heading of 305-309 and so therefore they called it 30 and 31 to differentiate it a bit
Additionally, runway numbers are based on magnetic direction not true direction. So if an airport has A runway 01/19, And at some point the magnetic declination (Variation) lines in the area change by six or more degrees I think it is, The runway would have to be renumbered to 02/20 or 18/36, depending on which direction the magnetic declination (variation) lines have changed. VORs have to be recalibrated for the same reason from time to time. When I first moved to Atlanta in 1987, the declination line over the Atlanta airport was 2W Approximately, And now it is just a little over 5W. At airnav. com you can look up KATL and it shows the last variation check was in 2015.
Better check your device mini air crash just invested in a new more expensive and better quality microphone. The sound is way more better now then past videos .
Mini Air Crash Investigation sorry I didn’t mean for that to come off rude. I just found out about your channel so I’ve been watching through all your vids and I just came back to the latest vid to comment about the mic. The last couple videos did sound good so my bad about that. Keep up the good work!
good video as usual. the taxiway runway seems kind of stupid without including this incident. if the airport is too busy maybe just dont allow GA planes at busy times or at all. Pretty sure thats what Heathrow does never seen anything lighter than a Dash 8 there
They can't forbid a legally registered aircraft from landing at a county/state owned airport just because it's "too small" but a common tactic at the larger intl airports and domestic hubs is making the landing fees prohibitive for GA pilots.
If the Taxiway had a unique purpose it should have been given a unique identification like "Tango 31". If your Runway is Tango 31 I think a pilot would ask questions since it doesn't sound like a normal runway number,
Actually, most private / small planes *strongly* prefer to use smaller airports. The biggest reason being cost -- whenever you land you have to pay a fee to the airport, and while the fee varies based on plane size and passenger load, but big airports charge more than smaller airports. Additionally, common services (fuel, hanger space, and basic maintenance) tend to cost more at larger airports. Finally, smaller planes tend to be pushed to the back of the line when it comes to takeoff / landing clearances, leading to unpredictable delays, especially for departures. Note the situation is the video (where general aviation had a dedicated runway for departures) is very uncommon -- almost always, GA traffic will depart from the same runway that the large jets are departing from, although GA traffic commonly departs from a taxiway intersection rather than the end of the runway. A Cessna sitting behind a 747 in line for departure isn't going to be very happy. On the flip side, more advanced services (major maintenance, installation of avionics upgrades, and so forth) may *only* available at large airports, and sometimes a large commercial airport is closest to your ultimate destination.
I've always wondered what language controllers and pilots use. I think 75% of it is pre-understood. Anything that departs from the usual verbiage loses context but the mind seizes only on rote expression which can lead to incorrect actions. Two dead because of the sloppy norms the FAA allows.
EDSB in Germany temporarily used it's taxiway as a runway while the only runway was completely rebuilt. After some widening it was used for commercial aviation. Here is a picture shortly after finishing the new runway: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/EDSB_airfield_090912.jpg Today the temporary runway on the right is back to it's original width and looks like a taxiway.
What is the norm for small aircraft takeoffs? Do the usually take off from a taxiway? I can see where you would assume that you were cleared for a "runway"? This is a tough incident.
while they're not officially converted to runways at Blytheville International Airport but they get used as them anyway by crop dusters and training C-130s due to no tower and little traffic
To me it looks more like rwys 25 than 30. There is no such thing as navigation lights. Yes, the taxiway next to the west side of the terminal at DFW was used as a runway when the associated runway was being resurfaced.
The confusing administration of the airport itself was the cause. Even listening to the video it's confusing what's a taxiway and what's a runway and when they switch. It's like at the beginning of Airplane, when the PA is arguing with itself about parking zones.
I have enjoyed so many of your videos, so this endorsement is way overdue. What you uncover is while human judgement is generally pretty good, sometimes due to pilot / traffic controller / maintenance and manufacturing issues the outcomes can be sad. I am a big fan of advancements in computer and artificial intelligence tech, so hoping these might plug the gap in human shortcomings in times to come.
![[Live สด] การออกรางวัลสลากกินแบ่งรัฐบาล งวดวันที่ 16 ธันวาคม 2567](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dNTiBBthKgQ/mqdefault.jpg)
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I really like how you talk about crashes that are normally not talked about. Keep it up, i love it
Isa Diallo
Same here!
Yes! That is one of the great features of your channel. That must have be an ugly crash scene. Amazing that the TWA was able to stop. I wonder how many hours in type the Cessna pilot had.
i worked for trans world express in the early 90s at we used 31 several times with our j31s. we did not need that much runway so it sped things. the bigger birds could use the 30s and we would go off 31. so as soon as you said 31 i knew exactly where it used to be. great video.
I know your comment's a year old but I have to laugh: I didn't know what a "j31" was so I searched, and it kept telling me it's a Chinese made fighter jet similar to the F-35. Jetstream 31s make a lot more sense, hahaha.
Runway 30R has a huge dip in the middle of it... I have thought about this accident many times as i have lined up on 30R. The Cessna might have very well been hidden below the visual horizon due to that dip in the middle of the runway.
Thank you for covering this. TWA is easily my favorite airline past or present and is one of the reasons I became a pilot. When they went under, I was a freshman in HS and it broke my heart. There was nothing like landing at Lambert KSTL in the 90’s and seeing an ocean of TWA aircraft. Between it and the enormous American operation at KDFW, it was an incredible time in aviation. The enormous variety of airlines and aircraft types was so inspirational. Flying commercially in the U.S. during the mid 90’s was such a trip and a plane spotters dream. It hasn’t felt the same since.
I 100% agree, Nate! I lived in St. Louis then and frequently traveled. It was the ultimate era of plane spotting!
I was watching this and thinking the exact same thing!! Grew up in the Air Force and I feel the same could be said for the military as well..there used to be such a wide variety of planes from both sides and seems like that is dwindling, makes me sad as well.
Same. I remember when you could actually go into the terminal at Lambert and watch the planes coming and going right there in front of you as you were waiting for a flight to come in, sadly those days are long gone.
"You're going to like us......."
Grew up with Lambert right behind my house. They actually tore down my high school and it's a food prep area for the flights now...💜
Harrison Ford and Air Canada can convert any taxiway info runway :-D
Damn it I was about to comment the same thing 😂
Harrison Ford can make a FAIRway a runway! 🤣
you mean Captain Solo?
XD LOL
*"GET OFF MY PLANE!"*
Your videos are so addicting. Definitely helps me through my workday.
That grainy, classic, TWA footage was AWESOME!👍🏾
Thank you for covering this! I grew up right near this airport. I met an elderly woman as a child who told me she remembered watching Charles Lindberg practice in a field near her house when she was my age. I loved planespotting at Lambert; this is the only accident that happened aside from the fatal 1944 glider crash at Lambert Field. I don't even have to open my eyes to know it's 5:57 a.m. as the first rumble of jet engines starts over my house, the first flight of the day arriving at 6 a.m. Unfortunately I don't planespot much anymore as all I see land there are Southwest 737s. I sometimes still think I see MD-88s landing (30R lines up with my house.) Wikipedia says they retired them June 2020 but with COVID who knows? I know Delta used to fly those but I can't make out the livery. Fun fact about Lambert (nobody calls it STL) they tore down a whole subdivision and built a tunnel for Lindbergh Boulevard to make a new runway in the late 90s. They were right in the middle of it during 9/11. They should have stopped construction, but now we have a two BILLION dollar stretch of tarmac that gets used, on average, 3% of all flights.
He also failed to turn on is navigation lights according to a lineman that I knew at the airport. So the airplane was sitting on Runway three-zero right with no lights on. The air traffic controller up in the what is now the Old Tower, could not see the Cessna sitting on the runway because of Backscatter lighting from the MidCoast ramp. It was The Perfect Storm.
Had that rule change been made for turning on the beacons been implemented? After the USAir crash at LAX, that was one of the procedure changes proposed.
There are no navigation lights.
This is not true. The investigation team did find that the switches were in the off position, but the emergency response team reported they had adjusted switches in that panel in their attempt to shut down the right engine after the crash. Testing on the light filaments themselves indicated that the navigation lights were lit at the time of the accident, but were inconclusive about the wingtip strobe anti-collision lights.
I didn't remember this accident. Glad you found it and talked about it. Definitely going to look up the full NTSB report on this one as it sounds like a lot of little issues combined into one big issue. Keep up the great work!
Ask Harrison Ford about using taxiways as runways.....lol
Or two Aeromexico crews landing in Tucson.
😵😵😱🤯😳😆👍👍
air canada?
FERNANDO FLORES Words are are thing.
The force is strong in him
From my research they did repair the MD and it flew for 20 more years eventually being sold to Delta before they retired it in 2014
I grew up in St. Louis and remember this crash. When TWA was flying out of Lambert you could get a direct flight to almost everywhere now there are no where near as many lfights nowadays.
It's truly sad, isn't it? Back then, most every major city in the US had an airline hub based at it's airport. Now, you have huge terminal buildings sitting vacant in places like STL, CVG, MEM, MKE, PIT, and RDU, which in the 90s were filled with the sights, sounds, and aromas of the hustle and bustle of the glory days of aviation in the US!
Same. It was pretty sad when TWA went under.
I was sad when NWA was absorbed into Delta and MSP stopped being a major hub....that was always great to fly into or out of, especially during summer thunderstorm season in the Plains (!)
I used to fly or layover in lambert quite a bit. I remember when they built the east terminal concourse D could be used as a connection, so I'd basically use that entire length for exercise before a long flight, much like I guess a mall walker would. Can't do that anymore.
I still wonder if they moved a few of the moving walkways from D over to C. Some of the labeling on the walkways certainly looks old enough to be the case.
I'm in Cleveland and I can't even find direct flights to Austin or San Antonio. I don't remember it being like this years ago but maybe I'm mistaken. Not many flights in CLE anymore it seems...
Not so many bells and whistles on this channel but this is more than compensated for by coherent and detailed analysis.
I was on another TWA plane that night at Lambert. They had just pushed us back and we started towards the taxiway when it happened. We had no idea what happened for a couple hours, until we finally taxied to the runway, and then saw what was left.
That’ was a great video , and they way you talk the way you present it is of such great work
Thank you ,
Thanks Andrew!
@Andrew Yes - exactly what I was about to type! Well, not exactly - you said it better so 'what Andrew said' lol . Every time a question popped into my head he immediately answered it. Perfect!
Nice job, great video and your sound improved greatly, keep up the good work!
Thanks a ton!
Love seeing the L1011 takeoff footage in there - gorgeous aeroplane ✈
This channel is so underrated. Best crash channel on TH-cam
Then you have watched Allec Joshua Ibay.
Mike Brown man doesn’t even talk
I guess it was designed for people who can read.
You're 'spoiling' me Sir, with the consistent excellence, of your presentations!(Yet, Never Tedious!) Many Thanks!!
When I was a student pilot, I was part of a flying club at the local NAS. Because they were often using the main runways for carrier practice, most of the smaller civilian planes took off and landed on a taxiway designated B (Bravo), then either North or South to designate the direction for landing.
"Cleared to land runway Bravo North"
Love the vintage visuals. Love your presentation style as usual. Subbed.
Hector International in the Dakota's designated their taxi way as a runway during resurfacing operations..
I've seen that as many GA airports. Especially in the 90s
Here in HLN Montana 15 years ago a taxi way was used as a runway as main runway was having the runway dip taken out.
Brilliant thank you, I look forward to the next one, well done.
Great work, the way you research and narrate and I quite enjoy all of the different plane footage. If you could publish these as podcasts as well, it would be amazing!
Your videos are so detailed and professionally done. The NTSB can learn from you
lol these are based on the NTSB reports, The NTSB does an amazing job of digitizing and distributing decades old reports :)
@@MiniAirCrashInvestigation we really appreciate your videos
I remember this accident. I flew for a Delta Connection from 98-2008. ATP 8000 hours CFII and Check airman. STL was considered a less desirable overnight so.... being junior in 1998 then upgrading to captain in 2001 I found myself in STL a lot in the summer and winter months and remember the taxiway being operated as a runway we always briefed this oddity because it sometime lead to an odd ground clearance that would confuse pilots that had. It been there before or in a long time. Also, the taxiway... turned into a runway still had the feel of a taxiway at first glance.
If I remember the ground clearance from the terminal to the FBO (where we repositioned for the overnight) would give clearance to cross 30R and the taxi way runway at the same time. I can’t remember what they called the short runway for sure. I thing it was 30R 30C and 30L.
I flew in the day after the accident. I remember that I wasn’t surprised to hear that someone had become confused and taxied onto the wrong runway.
I was a check airman when I lost my medical. I was also a FAA good seal flight instructor. I really was very careful and flew to standards because of my position flying with new captains and first officers. Taxiing can be the most challenging part of being a pilot. Airports are complex and often confusing layouts. I spent a few minutes before a flight and in route reviewing the possible taxi scenarios and any notices about construction or changes in the airport operating procedures. I can tell you that taxiing mistakes are easy to make and I’ve seen some very experienced pilots at majors, regionals and general aviation make significant mistakes. I particularly hated taxiing at Boston at night. I don’t know why, but that airport was confusing once on the ground.
I remember this accident. Seen many photos. It was still on the centerline with the cabin and cockpit sheared off.
Lambert did eventually get a new runway to handle that traffic. Problem is, by then American had taken over TWA and St. Louis lost all that hub traffic to DFW. Nice new runway with passenger numbers being just a fraction of what they once where.
Thank you! You seem like a very caring person and are very caring about the quality of the video's you produce. Just found your channel. I should be out working but.... Just had to give you a fat head. Thanks again... (Rarely comment)
I remember when this accident happened! It was really sad to see the wreckage of the Cessna, knowing that the two occupants did not survive.
Great TWA footage for the video!
I lived in St. Louis in TWA's peak years. STL had several fantastic spotting locations where 90% or more of the airport could be viewed. TWA had around 2000 daily movements then, so there was almost always traffic coming and going. Also, from the early 80s into the 90s there were a dozen or so other airlines that had scheduled flights, but the highlight of many spotting trips was the six aircraft formations of the Missouri Air National Guard that would launch in a 2x2x2 arrangement and land in the standard military formation landing where the six F4s or F15s would fly over the runway in formation, then peel off one by one and circle back to land in rapid succession. On numerous occasions one might see four or five Guard fighters all rolling on the same runway at the same time. The more rare, icing on the cake treat, was when McDonnell Douglas would test a new F18 by doing a straight up verticle climb from take off to 10,000 feet!
Ahh, the great memories of where I fell in love with plane spotting! L1011s, 727s, DC9s, MD80s, Metroliners and SF30s ruled the scene, and it was beautiful to watch the lovely, very busy scene that was STL in the last two decades of TWA! I sure do miss those days!
Three runways...... simply call them Alpha, Bravo and Charlie. There's enough ' numbers ' being thrown about with directions/bearings, etc.
I think having them numbered makes sense. You immediately know which direction the take-off/landing end of a runway is just by hearing it's name, and can plan accordingly.
Showing videos or photos of the planes involved is way better than some random planes
Yeah but not always possibly, especially when the incident took place 20+ years ago.
I believe that the pilot, who, as stated, was likely tired and not fully attentive, drew the conclusion that the air traffic controller was directing him to the runway he had previously landed on and he was therefore confident he was navigating properly on the airport and exhibited no hesitation in taking off. A person has a multitude of thoughts running through his/her mind in preparation for a flight, and if fatigue disallows the pilot to cognitively focus on each individual detail, an essential one is likely to be missed. BTW, the graphical content and narration of your videos are excellent. Your attention to detail and the extent of research you obviously perform on each one is exemplary.
Your channel is so Top Shelf, thank you for all the hard work for each episode...🙏✨👌😢✈️🐲❣️
Awesome as always, thank you
All I know is that even as a mechanic I understood to never ever cross a runway until given permission. At night it may have been a little more difficult but still, I think it was fatigue here.
My Uncle's constant 'mantra', "...clarity, clarity, clarity"!!
Great job your videos get better and better thanks for all the great research, they are really good.
Great work as usual man.
Very interesting info on these Aircraft mishaps and sadly...crashes. You do a very good job narrating!! Thank you. And....you have a new sub. 😊
The start of 31R has a hump. Pilots in MD-80 type, could easily not seen taxi lights on small aircraft, at what use to be Midcoast ramp.
There's this airport in Brazil called Salgado Filho International Airport (SBPA), in the city of Porto Alegre, where taxiway D (which is parallel to the single runway - 11/29) can be used as a GA runway. It's very rare, though, since D is in the north side of the airport , whereas the GA aprons are in the south side, not to mention commercial aviation needs to use taxiway D when runway 29 is active. I'm guessing the whole thing is a relic from when the airport used to have way less airline traffic and only had one small terminal, as opposed to the 2 bigger ones it has now.
The layout or SBPA is so interesting!
Excellent, as always.
I once landed in a taxiway in my city airport (SCL), I'm not a pilot, but that was clearly a taxiway, you can still see it if you see it in Google earth in october 2019.
Also, the runway is 17L
The city is santiago de chile, south América
was the section of the runway he drove on initially even marked as a runway, the formal runway seemed to begin after the displaced threshold... I think Kali airport in Columbia uses a Taxiway as a runway (or a semi-disused runway as a Taxiway) whilst in Iceland, a few of the smaller (but commercial) airports, whose runways were widened to host strategic aviation, would at times clear smaller planes to takeoff diagonal to the marked runway heading, in order to keep them nose into the wind...
Glasgow-Scotland UK meanwhile, confuses many pilots by having both aquatic and cement runways run as one airport
Thank you for your work
Hey, did you get a new mic? Sounds loads better than your older vids :) Keep up the great work
Actually yeah I did, I got it like a month and a half ago or something :)
@@MiniAirCrashInvestigation Ah nice, my bad I didn't pick up the videos for a bit! Working through the backlog now :)
I wasn't aware that St. Lewis had mountains, palm trees, and a LA airport arched theme building!
Yes, I thought runway 30 looked really two-fivey.
To me one major detail that is missed is why didn't the controller mention to the Cessna pilot " Hey, your radio isn't clear, please get it repaired." A simple mention of "get the radio fixed," prevents the crash, and could have lead to the pilot deciding to spend the night in STL, over trying to go home.
For your Question at 11:37, the answer is, A bird flew past the camera at 11:33 😁
Hey Ryan.
I just want to let you know that your videos are simple and interesting. They help me through bad days, which are about a third of my total days, nowadays.
I suffer from an inexplicable form of insomnia, one which makes sleep impossible for me (no exaggeration) that began in early 2015, during which I spent two years, 2015-2017, practically awake 95% of the time. I'm pretty sure this insane period of two years during which I kinda, sorta slept maybe one hour a week, has had some damage on my brain.
I treated myself with alcohol from 2017-2019, 190 proof spirits - you know, 95% grain alcohol, which almost shut down my liver.
As a result, I now am the proud owner of a multitude of disabling conditions which have manifested over the years as a result - the still, ever present complete inability to sleep, chronic fatigue, ADD, PTSD, panic attacks, episodes of depersonalization, severe depression, lack of motivation and interest in life, suicidal ideations...
I'm practically dysfunctional now. I'm on a pharmacies worth of meds, including sleep meds that work, thank God, anti anxiety drugs - Valium and Xanax, that work sometimes, but which I'm afraid of getting addicted to, depression drugs that don't really make much difference, and Adderall, the most important med other than sleep meds, which helps what otherwise is my inability now to focus on what's going on around me to an extreme degree.
Adderall is effective for helping be me to feel somewhat normal, mostly.
None of these meds are a cure though, and even with a constant supply, they're still merely treatments for symptoms for which no cures exist. It sucks having to depend on meds.
Anyway, some days are better than others. This day, Sunday, August 9th 2020, is particularly bad. It's around noon, so I have many more hours to endure before it's time for sleep meds.
Anyway, yeah. Long post. I just wanted to provide a little backstory of my condition, and how, due to the simple, interesting nature of your videos, they go a long way toward providing me some relief when days like these happen, during these relentless hours of suffering through awake time.
Thanks, Ryan.
-Ash
That’s no good mate , if you only take them meds when required and as prescribed by doctor you will not even know if you get addicted, it’s quality of life don’t be afraid if you get addicted it’s not the end of world, it’s what you do if you have addiction like buy on the black market or steal money to buy , if the meds help you just take them
@@coca-colayes1958
Yeah, it's no good. It's a bad situation all around. I do take my meds, as directed by my doctor.
The reason why addiction terrifies me though, is because I was hooked on opiates - pain pills - morphine mainly, which started with a simple toothache that wouldn't go away for years.
From 2000 until 2007 I was addicted to opiates because I was prescribed them after oral surgery. I kicked those by myself, by experiencing hell for about a year.
Then seven years after that, when life seemed to be returning to normal, this insomnia, along with all the other associated conditions, crept up, along with another new addiction, alcohol - the only thing I knew about to battle insomnia, because nothing else worked - which I kicked in rehab.
Now I have to take addictive narcotics simply to function. Ironic. So that's the source of my terror concerning addiction. I never seek it out, it always finds me, in one form or another.
Never thought about publishing these as podcasts ?? I subscribe .. (obligatory comment for the TH-cam algorithm)
As a retired heavy duty truck mechanic I have to ask: how does a mechanic fail to put O-rings on a critical part not just one but three times? And didn't check for leaks? That shop needed a shake-up from top to bottom!
It's not just taxiways converted to runways that can cause confusion. It can also happen the other way around. Infamously Singapore Airlines 006 tried to take off from a runway that was only used as a taxiway at the time. I see there is already a video of that as well on this channel.
Get there itis strikes again
Keep up the great work!
Thanks dean!!
Gatwick Airport uses its Parallel Taxiway as a Runway when maintenance is working on the Main designated runway.
Sounds to me like the C-421 pilot was lost. The problems with his radio would also contribute to the accident. Thanks for your videos, they are very informative.
I was there the night this happened. My flight to Seattle was at the gate to the right of this flight. I remember clearly the pilot telling us that it was our turn to push back but that we were going to let this plane (the one that hit the Cessna) go ahead of us, as there is already another plane on the ground waiting for their gate. Sure enough, 10 minutes later we pushed back and began taxiing. I buried myself in a book I just purchased. At some point I remember thinking that we had sat in one spot for quite some time and when I looked out my window I saw emergency lights everywhere. Very shortly after that the pilot informed us of what had occurred and advised us to prepare for a long wait, as the airport was likely to be closed for some time. We did get clearance and were able to take off. Seems like the total delay to our destination was about 2 hours. One of those "if only" moments. Would the flight crew on my plane had the same reaction to avoid a larger disaster?
That stretched 9 is a sleek looking bird......
I love how you summarize the investigation videos compared to the original MAYDAY SERIES, but I will appreciate it if you can either get actual footage of the incident or produce some sort of animation instead of repeating videos of planes taking off and landing
Thanks for the feedback! The animation might work I might get a gaming laptop in the next few months if ad revenue picks up. :)
STL is a very confusing airport. The controllers use to have a short patience thresh hold. If you got lost on the taxi ways they would send you to what we used to call the penalty box. They'd let you sit there for a long time.
Why can't we name planes like we do boats? That'd be so cool!
You didn't mention the Cessna pilot's age. I wonder if this could be a factor. As we age the cataracts that form in all of our eyes scatter blue light more than other colors. This can make it harder to tell that a while light with a blue filter, such as would have been used to mark taxiways in the 90's, was blue. This would then make the contrast with the white runway lights less pronounced. This effect is even larger when it comes to blue LEDs when they are used near other light sources. This can even make flashing blue LEDs on emergency vehicles impossible to see against headlights, even though the person can easily pass the eye test for driving. This is why blue LEDs should never be used without red LED's to distinguish police or emergency vehicles. Now blue LEDs used by themselves would still look blue even with moderate cataracts. Blue LEDs (with a tempature controlled heater) would make the best taxiway light possible with current technology.
At least only 2 people died, this type of incident has led to carnage in the past.
Why is the numbering always so close ie 30 31? Can't it be 50L 60R etc with a different first digit for example?
runways are numbered based on their heading. For example if a runway faced due east its heading would be 090. So that means the runways would be numbered 09. If it faced due south its heading would be 180, so the runway number would be 18. in this case both runways were more or less parallel. Im assuming both runways had a heading of 305-309 and so therefore they called it 30 and 31 to differentiate it a bit
Additionally, runway numbers are based on magnetic direction not true direction. So if an airport has A runway 01/19, And at some point the magnetic declination (Variation) lines in the area change by six or more degrees I think it is, The runway would have to be renumbered to 02/20 or 18/36, depending on which direction the magnetic declination (variation) lines have changed. VORs have to be recalibrated for the same reason from time to time. When I first moved to Atlanta in 1987, the declination line over the Atlanta airport was 2W Approximately, And now it is just a little over 5W. At airnav. com you can look up KATL and it shows the last variation check was in 2015.
I’m loving your videos man. Do you have a patreon or something? We need to get you the microphone you deserve
Better check your device mini air crash just invested in a new more expensive and better quality microphone. The sound is way more better now then past videos .
Is the sound really bad? Cause like Andrew said I just got a new mic. But thanks for the willingness to donate it’s the thought that counts :)
Mini Air Crash Investigation sorry I didn’t mean for that to come off rude. I just found out about your channel so I’ve been watching through all your vids and I just came back to the latest vid to comment about the mic. The last couple videos did sound good so my bad about that. Keep up the good work!
No don’t worry I didn’t take any offense :). I was just surprised that’s all. Thanks mate!
Where did you go? It's been months since you uploaded anything. Hope everything is okay, you are missed!
Check the channel haha new video is up!
good video as usual.
the taxiway runway seems kind of stupid without including this incident. if the airport is too busy maybe just dont allow GA planes at busy times or at all.
Pretty sure thats what Heathrow does never seen anything lighter than a Dash 8 there
Or they could have just built a teensy weensy little runway for GA planes
They can't forbid a legally registered aircraft from landing at a county/state owned airport just because it's "too small" but a common tactic at the larger intl airports and domestic hubs is making the landing fees prohibitive for GA pilots.
@@manyshnooks that makes a lot more sense.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If the Taxiway had a unique purpose it should have been given a unique identification like "Tango 31". If your Runway is Tango 31 I think a pilot would ask questions since it doesn't sound like a normal runway number,
Maybe Heavies and Light Planes should use separate airports.
I’ve always thought that.
Actually, most private / small planes *strongly* prefer to use smaller airports.
The biggest reason being cost -- whenever you land you have to pay a fee to the airport, and while the fee varies based on plane size and passenger load, but big airports charge more than smaller airports. Additionally, common services (fuel, hanger space, and basic maintenance) tend to cost more at larger airports. Finally, smaller planes tend to be pushed to the back of the line when it comes to takeoff / landing clearances, leading to unpredictable delays, especially for departures. Note the situation is the video (where general aviation had a dedicated runway for departures) is very uncommon -- almost always, GA traffic will depart from the same runway that the large jets are departing from, although GA traffic commonly departs from a taxiway intersection rather than the end of the runway. A Cessna sitting behind a 747 in line for departure isn't going to be very happy.
On the flip side, more advanced services (major maintenance, installation of avionics upgrades, and so forth) may *only* available at large airports, and sometimes a large commercial airport is closest to your ultimate destination.
I've always wondered what language controllers and pilots use. I think 75% of it is pre-understood. Anything that departs from the usual verbiage loses context but the mind seizes only on rote expression which can lead to incorrect actions. Two dead because of the sloppy norms the FAA allows.
The international language of aviation is English. Foreign ATC's sometimes use their own language when dealing with a domestic flight.
I think you are right. The term "pre-understood" encapsulates the phenomenon perfectly.
More good content. 👍
Cessna pilot had issues with his radio before arrival. He should have had that issue squared away BEFORE flying to his next destination.
I'm sure that frustration with the bad radio in the Cessna didn't help.
EDSB in Germany temporarily used it's taxiway as a runway while the only runway was completely rebuilt. After some widening it was used for commercial aviation. Here is a picture shortly after finishing the new runway: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/EDSB_airfield_090912.jpg Today the temporary runway on the right is back to it's original width and looks like a taxiway.
Soooooo nobody gonna talk about how the wing sheared off the top of the Cessna and cut the 2 guys in half?
Ask Harrison Ford about using a taxiway as a runway...he's an expert!
Airport layouts should be foolproof, and this one clearly wasn't.
That's what caused the crash in my opinion.
What is the norm for small aircraft takeoffs? Do the usually take off from a taxiway?
I can see where you would assume that you were cleared for a "runway"?
This is a tough incident.
Your question; Harrison Ford turned a taxiway into a runway.
Any plane with engines on the back of the plane scare me
Harrison Ford has something to say about using taxiways as runways
while they're not officially converted to runways at Blytheville International Airport but they get used as them anyway by crop dusters and training C-130s due to no tower and little traffic
i only know of a taxiway being used as a runway during eaa oshkosh but taxiway echo at LGA was originally a STOL runway
To me it looks more like rwys 25 than 30. There is no such thing as navigation lights.
Yes, the taxiway next to the west side of the terminal at DFW was used as a runway when the associated runway was being resurfaced.
The confusing administration of the airport itself was the cause. Even listening to the video it's confusing what's a taxiway and what's a runway and when they switch. It's like at the beginning of Airplane, when the PA is arguing with itself about parking zones.
I think the pilot of the Cessna misunderstood both.
Sure I saw another video about this crash and if I'm not mistaken the 2 people in the cessna were actually decapitated
Was the Mad Dog repaired or parted out?
Repaired stayed with TWA went to AA when whey slaughtered TWA stored July 2017 appears to have been scrapped
DFW has a taxiway used as a runway. It was west of 18R if I remember correctly. Could be the opposite though. Probably in the 90’s?
why the fuck am i watching this i have a flight in 5 days
I have enjoyed so many of your videos, so this endorsement is way overdue. What you uncover is while human judgement is generally pretty good, sometimes due to pilot / traffic controller / maintenance and manufacturing issues the outcomes can be sad. I am a big fan of advancements in computer and artificial intelligence tech, so hoping these might plug the gap in human shortcomings in times to come.
I how you talk about airplane accidents and crash's. I never heard of. Or heard of. You talk about them with more details. Keep it up.
Another big plane/small plane collision
Nice LAX footage
Clarence didn’t have clearance
But did Victor have the right vector?
@@keemez you’ll have to check with Captain Oveur, over