Paul Kingsnorth on the shared roots of climate crisis, transhumanism, & immortality: RCC S2E53
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 มี.ค. 2021
- Paul Kingsnorth is tired of talking about the scope of the climate crisis. In his view, we can’t fix climate change. But we can uncover the spiritual root of the problem and explore how we might live through it.
Paul is the founder of The Dark Mountain Project and a prolific writer of poetry, fiction, and nonfiction. His latest release, the novel Alexandria, serves as the capstone of the acclaimed Buckmaster Trilogy. On this episode of Reversing Climate Change, Paul joins Ross to discuss the connection between transhumanism and the climate crisis, explaining what’s behind our ideology against limits and why he believes the mind and soul can’t live separate from the body.
Paul shares his take on capitalism versus distributism, describing how systems of radical local democracy would root us in community and prevent the kind of scale that leads to tyranny. Listen in for Paul’s insight on the emptying of the will at the heart of most religious traditions and learn why a connection with something greater than ourselves is key to effective activism.
Key Takeaways
[3:34] Paul’s take on the connection between transhumanism and the climate crisis
Myth that humans are separate from nature and can control with tech
See nature as collection of resources to be used vs. living beings
[7:57] The philosophical question around living within limits vs. breaking them all
Every spiritual tradition teaches that we’re part of something bigger
Attempts to abolish limits, behave like gods has led to climate crisis
[10:43] The best literary arguments against transhumanism
Can’t do things of value without constraints, limitless world becomes hell
Mind and soul can’t live separate from body as technotopians believe
[18:12] How Paul thinks about the dualism of body and soul
No separation of body and soul in original Christian tradition
‘World is alive, we are alive and intimately part of it’
[21:26] Paul’s insight on our ideology against limits
Modern western liberalism created notion of autonomous individual
No shared values, can’t see why anyone should tell us what to do
[24:48] Why Paul tends to resist political labels
Conservative sensibility in some ways, radical in others (capitalism = monster)
Danger in selfish culture that eliminates all but individual and marketplace
[28:29] Paul’s thoughts on distributism vs. capitalism
Capitalism doesn’t evolve naturally when people value community and place
Radical local democracy prevents tyranny through limits on scale
[33:05] The negative impact of a world that feels too big to be involved in
Politics become substitute for religion and community, feel out of control
Connected to everything that happens in world and yet nothing at all
[36:42] What inspired Paul’s move to the Irish countryside
Spent many years writing about nature, time to get hands dirty
Want to be part of rooted community that isn’t just human
[39:09] The central teaching of Christianity and most religious traditions
Emptying of will over triumph of will, aspire to radical humility
Strength in serving others, communion with God and creation
[47:08] How Paul incorporates Christian elements in Alexandria
Teachings warn us about very thing ended up doing
Way out = through own heart, love people we disagree with
[54:03] Why Orthodox Christianity appeals to Paul
Full-spectrum physical, mystical experience (not just intellectual)
Provides path to union with God as manifested in natural world
[1:01:16] The role of internal work in politics and activism
Demonizing people who disagree doesn’t solve anything
Individual at core of secular theology novel in modern, Western culture
[1:06:22] How Paul’s thinking on spirituality is reflected in his writing
Centers on two great loves of life-wild nature and rooted communities
Explores spiritual questions about what we value and how we act
[1:10:01] The common thread among the religious traditions Paul has practiced
Connect with God universally in a localized way
Powerful recognition of spirit of place
#PaulKingsnorth #Orthodoxy #Alexandria - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Really love Paul Kingsnorth. Enjoyed this interview immensely. Really loved his point about locality and saints. Excellent interview!
This is fantastic. Soul healing and earth healing are linked.
LOT of circular reasoning (i.e. BEGGING the QUESTION)
Man made CO2 "climate change" is a total MULTI-Billion dollar GRIFT.
POLLUTION, on the other hand, ok. However ......
I have been following Paul for a while and was not at all surprised that he had submitted to follow a spiritual path.He genuinely seems more content.I like him and wish him and his lovely family a very blessed and protected life.I am in South West Ireland.
Really powerful and one of the reasons why I’ve been exploring orthodoxy. Seeing the world as a manifestation of God. A mystical Christianity where we commune with the world.
I'm very glad I found this.
Really enjoyed this excellent discussion. It reminded me of what Charles Eisenstein has been saying about the environmental crisis needing solutions with more depth. His books: Climate- A New Story, & Sacred Economics are well worth reading.
The importance of the mystical experience, rather than being trapped by the conceptual mind by words, is a much needed message that needs to be heard.
I would add only one thing: the experience of the mystical is not irrational; it is trans-rational, and the trans-rational experience is then interpreted and spoken about rationally, possibly also being written down. If the spoken and written words become a substitute for direct experience, one is then effectively putting more value on the menu than the food.
Well put! The whole point with conceptual thinking is to see it as a starting point from whence we reach deeper and arrive beyond the rational mind, into the domain of direct experience. Only then is finding truth a possibility. This process requires a conscious effort and training of the mind. Fortune individuals throughout history have accomplished this transcendental journey and accomplished their full potentials.
Fortunately, authentic spiritual traditions that have the powers to lead dedicated adepts still exists today. What’s required, at the beginning of such a journey, is humility and a willingness to abandon preconceived notions about reality.
I really appreciate you speaking with Paul Kingsnorth for your podcast, especially because (as you well know) your Nori project does seem to embody much that he is against. This is a terrific and consistently interesting interview. Thanks!
14:07 "Techno-gnostic heresy going on in Silicon Valley..." Yep. Thanks for that.
51:15 "Why don't you see this anywhere?" The beauty of the Gospel can be found in the lives of the Orthodox Saints.
thank you that was very knowledgeable for me you bring your wisdom to the audience that for someone like who is a first timer listening to this kind of interview. I will not forget this but will treasure it immensely. I found it very helpful for me discovering this your thoughts about climate change and your journey towards christianity was excellent. thank you really loved it. May god bless you
This was excellent. Appreciate you both. . . very much.
When I'm finished the book series I will definitely come back to this video, but I don't want the spoilers for now.
I have come to the conclusion that the only completely sane people today are all living in monasteries.
🦁🦓🐎🐃🐗🐂🐩🦊🐺🐄
Fascinating.
I can only maintain an Open Mind. I love listening to new ideas; this way, I will be psychologically prepared for whatever future we become.
*thoroughly* enjoyed this.
Excellent!
Amazing how deeply the story of the original sin and the garden affect us when we stop trying to figure out if it really happened that way or not and just learn from the wisdom that is contained in it… it’s quite a deep and helpful wisdom and it still insults sinful man and women even if it is read allegorically.
The way Paul applies Genisis to life is cool.
It is constraints that give shape and meaning to experience. A game with no rules is not worth playing.
This!!! I have been realizing this in the last year.
Thank you for this!
Totally enjoyed this, awesome 👌
As someone who spent their life in the rural forests of MN, and who lived for two years in a wigwam or sleeping under the stars, Paul is one of the only guys I know who is understands that nature truly is a different dimension from what we call society. He's honest enough to call out the current progressive environmental movement as an offshoot of technocracy. He's got a touch of John Trudell in him. Ideas like "carbon trading" and "environmental justice" are hashed out by suburban intellectuals whose only experience with nature is taking selfies in front of some mountain or lake, and it's like hoping a swimsuit model will know how to fix your 67 Cadillac. Its absurd. This is a problem of the soul, of the human identity, and Millennials and Gen Zers are the most ill adapted people in the history of the planet to make any substantial difference in this slow apocalypse.
Well put.
Good conversation, thanks for that. The question of 'how we got here' continues to fascinate me, and a key element in the process that wasn't mentioned in the talk directly, but is hinted at is 'disenchantment'. It's much easier to destroy something you don't hold sacred. 'Uluru', what we used to call 'Ayers Rock', was never sacred to Europeans so we let all and sundry walk all over it all the time. Now it's back to being 'Uluru' access is being restricted. So a key question for any Christian is how much did Christianity have to do with 'disenchantment' in the West, and according to the Catholic philosopher Charles Taylor, more than nothing. The conversion of the German tribes starts with Saint Boniface chopping down their sacred tree, and in general Monotheism has to insist that spirits and deities in nature is superstition and idolatry. Christianity is also a 'cut and shut' between Hellenism and Judaism, and initially that arguably works well with Neoplatonism being a good fit. However from the 12th century the 'reverse translation movement' starts to bring Aristotle back into the picture from Arab sources. That eventually leads to Catholic scholasticism and then universities that shifts the focus onto rationalism and empiricism. So slowly 'God is banished from the universe before he dies'. Then of course the reformation finishes off the contemplative aspect of western Christendom by destroying monasteries, and thus commerce and science can really get started on exploiting a planet of resources not sacred interconnectedness. Clearly Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't go down this route, so it will be interesting to see if some of that more mystical, more immanence focused faith can become influential again.
Meat suit that’s you walk around in. That’s such a great quote
Superb podcast.
Great interview guys
In consideration of the uploading the human to the cloud without limitation, how interesting would a game of chess be if every piece could move without limitation?
Fantastic talk, I agree with so, so much of it, and I've got a lot of notes and reading to pursue more deeply. I wonder a bit at the demonization of "capitalism" as such, and it has been bizarre to see how differently two (or more) sides define it. I note that the idea that (paraphrased) "capitalism doesn't develop where everyone has a little something and everybody has an interest in stopping anybody getting too big" is really much more my own understanding of capitalism. Contrast to what the unspoken "mainstream" definition has become... massive corporations with marketing/ad budgets on scale of GDPs of small nations, and the (overt or covert) backing of governing structures to maintain their holds and quash competition. Capitalism, as I was taught (economics degree), is nothing more than a structure in which each individual's right to control means of production (land, labor, and capital goods) is protected, and their usage of those means to produce as they see fit is relatively unhampered, barring usages that do harm to the person or property of others. Very, very different meanings.
Personally, I take the massive, metastasizing issues of the West as arising from the loss of anything underlying market capitalism. "God is dead," therefore something must replace it. Secure individual ownership (ultimate control) of means of production (which includes one's own body - labor) is only a social tool, like a hammer. I can use it to build and maintain a house for my family, or I can use it to murder my neighbor and take his house. Or threaten my neighbor and force him to use his hammer to build an addition on my house. What stops the latter type scenarios (whose larger-scale analogs we see daily in the news)? Deeper convictions and values... something that we've spent over a century congratulating ourselves for eradicating. We've thrown the baby out with the bathwater, and are blaming the tub for being empty now.
Yes. There are different perspectives -- and degrees and types of "capitalism" -- from primary to planetary, simple go complex, hyper- local to global, heathy and compassionate to toxic, predatory, and extreme / savage capitalism.
Adam Smith warned -- and worked -- against monopolies as he foresaw where they would lead. Lots of work to do inside & before us all.
...
The dark side of *Techno-capitalism* & the pursuit of dopamine and pleasure.
Brilliant, profound, concise explanation of the root causes of alienation and its expressions -- suicide, slashing, shootings, homelessness, addiction, pain, decay, collapse. Brilliant clip. A gem. Thanks @RichRoll.
The good news: True love, sensitive observation, good science, direct experience, and the good use of mass social media can empower us all to ultimately outweigh and outpace negative realities.
...
John Michael Greer uses the term Burkean Conservativism. Excellent and inspiring interview.
What Paul's soul seems to be expressing, is the same as what the Native Americans, and many other old cultures have tried to teach us. To be Caretakers of Mother Earth and to all living/non living things. Great interview, and I love the message he has for the modern world !
I would be interested in what Kingsnorth thinks about Rudolf Steiner in terms of Christianity and Social Three-folding. Also wonder if he is aware of the book "The Alphabet Versus the Goddess"
by Leonard Shlain.
That is a very thought provoking book. Never seen someone cite before.
Please refer to Rudolph Steiner's philosophy of Ahrimanic influences.
Good insights on scale of things… In the USA, around 2009, we had a major problem where the leadership felt it was necessary to bail out the banks because the banks, as they would say, were “too big to fail”. I think there is such a thing as “too big to succeed” and I think we are seeing it… God forbid that we get AI and it starts helping us “manage” and “fix” the mess we have made😂
Ground dog day...
Is great movie...
The lead figure is not able to die...
And his frustration..
In the end it has good lesson.
Sadly, i am with you Paul. Can't say I've made the leap to an intelligent outward form of christianity, but i do often defend it's instituitions against our past selves, many with freedom at their core.
There was a lot of theology written by Roman Catholic saints before the reformation, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine to mention a few. The other aspect of protestant religion is music and singing (setting of texts) together. This tradition led to the great musical output of Germany. The older catholic church relies on the visual and spectacle. Remember that the opening of the bible indicates that "in the beginning was the word." The printing press and the increase in literacy along with northern European capitalism made protestantism inevitable, for better or worse.
Great video. I also had the realization that climate change is now abrupt, exponential, and irreversible. The root cause of climate change is primal wounding or what the Christians mistakenly call "original sin". There is a deep and profound wound deep inside us that severed our connection to our own Soul or Self, which is Divine in nature. This leads to narcissism, egoic grandiosity, lack of boundaries and limits, disconnection and lack of respect for Nature, and the objectification of human beings as objects to be used to make the few extraordinarily wealthy. Our society and parental ignorance cause the primal wounding. As far as the solution, I agree entirely, except I am no longer a fundamentalist or orthodox Christian. I am Self Realized and have healed the primal wound. This was an arduous journey of 30 years. One is literally crucified like Christ. One's religion does not matter. Being true to one's Self and to Reality (Divine Spirit) matters. The ego becomes crushed and terrorized and unable to function when the full reality of climate change is understood. Hence why all the narcissists in the world are pretending it isn't happening or is not catastrophic. The only solution is to reconnect with one's Soul and to enjoy ones own larger and wider consciousness. Here lies true inner security. The Soul is not afraid of climate change because it has the knowledge that it is eternal. This does not change the inevitability of death by climate change, but it gives one the strength to endure it and go through it, being true to one's Soul until the last breath. Peace.
Whoa. Never thought of it like that.
Nothing could sound worse to me than a world in which people live forever. Death is as integral to life as birth. Without death it’s quite possible people would stop living altogether in a perpetual state of seeking what is created naturally within them but not know what it is they are seeking.. What they are actually seeking is death. Endless life on earth sounds soulless and without contemplative thought. People often feel most alive after receiving a terminal diagnosis. Facing death is part of our humanity.
If we can upload our selves to "the cloud", what happens when sombody trips over the cord to the server, and accidentally turns us off?
(Oh, I see you had the same idea: "but their head-freezing facility in the Sonoran desert suffered a tragic thawing episode")
“To live is Christ , to die is gain.” Paul
When we will upload ourselves to the cloud, we will destroy the cloud and create another cloud in the cloud 😂
Thinking thoughts without words happens all the time. There are also people with no internal dialog when they think.
Right, no one will live Amish, except the Amish. This is the reason creating neighborhood Communities is Parmount. Will it happen?
I fear that the emergence will be happening too slowly to be of large scale use.
the conversation is interesting and I agree with some of his autonomous/selfish when applied to corporations and big business. but...be careful... leave it there... please allow artists (painters, sculptors, poets, music, performance...etc... to be limitless and individualistic because creativity is the most powerful this way.
People need to find out about His Divine Presence Adi Da..
Adi Da Samraj Offers a Relationship to Reality Itself.
He has brought forth the blue print for an emerging Global Civilisation
That contemporary Intellectuals and Realisers are avoiding Adi Da says everything about human ego and it’s suicidal Narcissism. .
You both came to Christianity sort of the same way I did. I went to church as a child, all my own choice cause much of my family tried to tempt me not to. But it was just me and my grandma going. I was poor, had an uncle that would stop by almost every sunday and offer to take me and my cousin to all the recreational places. I asked him if we could go after church, and he said no, I had to choose church or hanging out with him. Well, I wanted to try to do the right thing, so i went with my grandma to church. I was only maybe 6-9. Years later my uncle became christian and he altered his schedule to include me.
But I do not feel I was taught well at church, and left it after I got into drugs trying to find more spirituality.
But I realized all these Buddhists and other religions had no answers. I was almost atheist and i believe they actually were to, because God to them seemed broad and there were no boundaries, it was all about what they wanted to believe, instead of a pointing to a being we could all know and verify that "hey, this is who God is, this is what defines right and wrong, what humanity is, etc".
Eventually I had some experience that scared me, and woke up a preacher I knew at 4am in the morning. I threw away all my electronics, I just wanted to live away from computers, tv and electronics, which was easier 21 years ago. And spent a year like that.
I went to about 100 different churches trying to figure out real Christianity.
And I got involved in politics, which actually led me to true Christianity. I got in an argument about Lincoln with someone in the Constitution Party who was running for President. He was bashing Lincoln, and I did not see how you could win an election bashing Lincoln.
So I did research, found really old books, one called "50 years in the church of rome", in which a former Catholic priest wrote a book in the late 1800s and quoted Lincoln "this war would have never been possible without the sinister influence of the Jesuits. We owe it to popery that our land is now reddened with the blood of her most noblest sons."
After more research, I found that the Vatican was involved in supporting the South and trying to take over America.
So I bring this knowledge from several books from the 1800s to that candidate. And he said "that was written after the fact". I just walked away, cause I thought that was the worst response someone could give. All history is written after the fact. This guy just didn't care about truth.
Later I found he was a catholic, and those in his circle were Catholic.
Eventually I stumbled upon 7th day sabbath keeping churches, since they were the only ones talking about a Vatican takeover of America. And it led me to figure out true Christianity is those who love God and seek to keep His commandments, not just the ones they want, but all ten.
I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist, I think doctrinally they shouldn't follow Ellen white. But I think you can find smaller sabbath keeping churches which are closer to the truth.
What was the thing that scared you that made you throw out your electronics?
H.G. Wells was an optimist.
This is exactly what an interagator would say.
It's not an interview.
25“。“I haven‘t seen any conservatives that want to conserve anything.” Roger Scruton?
Didn't Scruton support Margaret Thatcher?
Thought the same.
Scruton wrote possibly the best conservative treatise on environmentalism in recent history.
Rod Dreher too. His book, "The Benedictine Option" is really good.
Once again, why must their be a God? Is this necessary so that we can give life meaning? Well, most seem to be happiest with money, materialism. Others are happiest being creative, or thinking. Etc., etc.
Christianity creates peace of mind. I stepped down in my 20's. I'm not an intellectual, but I do think.
Religion gives some, self discipline.
Saying "Orthodoxy is without theology" is just not knowing Orthodoxy at all
Orthodoxy is full of theology full of theoretical knowledge, but Orthodoxy doesn't prioritize knowledge of the mond over knowledge of the heart, doesn't prioritize knowledge about God over God
Without having proper understanding of God (theology) you wouldn't have basically overall worldview and attitude towards life and what not, correct understanding and knowledge of God is fundamental to correct living and correct worship of God
Which is a fundament of any Orthodox
Orthodox Christianity is religion and philosophy of wise men and of soldiers
It triumphs over all other philosophies and worldviews
It's just too deep so people look over it and think it's all mysticism, it's mysticism to those who doesn't understand it (some are mystical, e.g Eucharist, but Orthodoxy isn't about mysticism, it understands holy and unholy is real and supernatural happens, quite often happens to be honest around saints usually)
When Paul makes a punch at the Orthodox Church for excommunicating Tolstoy, it sounds funny for a seasoned Orthodox's ears. Tells us exactly how novice and inexperienced Paul is as an Orthodox. He seems to be under the impression that it was the Church that sent the count packing. In reality, the Church just finalized the breakout proclaimed by Tolstoy himself. And if you don't consider him a heretic, then you actually don't know his teachings and base your knowledge of Tolstoy's ideas solely on his great novels. Tolstoy believed in paradise without God. He was pretty much a softcore Antichrist- ist.
You are correct.
@@Peekay72 Paul,I hope to see you and Pageau in Dublin this June.🙂Then we can discuss Tolstoy's heresy and Dostoevsky's true Orthodoxy.
Technology satisfies the objectives of the left hemisphere, but if we just focus on logic we have missed the relevance of context and so much nuance of the lived experience and all its complexities.
Whatever works
It's a cyclical universe baby...enjoy The Tao , it will never stop...
In terms of Christianity it is important to explore and understand the Essenian culture into which Jesus/Yeshua and Christ consciousness was born...subsequently 300 years later the Roman council of Nicea created Roman catholicism erasing many essential principles of direct un ion with God.
Anyone who uses ‘transhumanism’ in a sentence is clinically insane…. Damn.. there’s a knock on the door..wonder who those guys in the white overalls are..?😂😂
As it regards right wing or left wing Jesus… it dawned on me that economic systems or politician systems are alike in this… perfect people would make any system work without problem or even no system at all and immoral people break any and every system such that they ultimately fail.
Jesus came to save us from our sin and that means, I think, more than just save us from God’s justice… it means removing it from us such that we are no longer poisoned by it, we no longer crave it etc.. Jesus work to make the heart right such that right people could work in any system and make it successful or even no system at all.
Jesus wasn’t a socialist, he wasn’t a capitalist… he, in a sense, is a perfectionist.
I like the way you think, but 3 acres isn't enough land to provide for one family, especially in regions with few resources. Central planning doesn't work, whether it's capitalism or socialism, because destroying all the systems of individual production and private trade creates dependent slaves, easily oppressed. Even if people were all vegetarians (which causes reproductive system cancers, especially in females), people still need fiber for clothing. Polyester is plastic (oilfield waste). Sheep and goats are MIGRATORY animals. They don't pasture well, especially in warmer climes. Cotton doesn't grow in cold climates. In Siberia, meat and fats, butter and cheese, are critical to life. People can't stay warm enough without them. For a family to survive, they need timber, pastureland, cropland, and easy trade with other tribes to exchange what they can produce for what they can't. That's why trade has always been so important. Tribal lands by birthright used to solve the problems of geographical limitations, but strong central government concentrated wealth and resources. Before the Roman Empire existed, before Christianity, Zoroastrian fire temples were built from Africa, across Persia, into parts of India, the Russias, and across Western Europe, to provide safe storage and trading places, to facilitate travelling traders. Strong central government has taxed people out of their lands. The object of capitalism and socialism is to concentrate wealth in the hands of a few powerful oligarchs. They have done this in the Americas and Europe, and now the oligarchs want to set themselves up as gods, offering "immortality" to the chosen few. It's a scam, merely a means of confusing people and enslaving them. It's actually a dangerous psychosis, because the crazies have all the wealth. The central banks want central planning to perfect the power of the central bank global government. As long as the central banks exist, there is no hope for the environment, neither politically, nor privately. They will continue to poison us with oil and nuclear pollution, and all the plastics, which are now being found in rain, even in Colorado, where scientists did not expect to find the problem. The plastics in rain are from polyester textiles. You're right about the kings in small city states. Small kings or tribal chiefs was the only form of government that ever worked for any people anywhere in the world at any time in history.
It has no mind simple.
"I would probably like conservatives if they ever wanted to conserve anything apart from money." YUP
Without the story of Genesis/ Coming of Christ the rest of human history makes no sense.
COLLECTIVE ADOLESCENCE.
Climate change? But where is the omnipotent & benevolent God? On holiday? The stuff of myth.