Enfield MkII: Better Than the MkI, I Guess
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ธ.ค. 2024
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The Enfield MkI had only been in service for two years when the MkII was adopted in March 1882 to resolve some of its problems (and reduce its cost). At the same time, a new cartridge was adopted (the MkIII) with a heeled .477” bullet - also in hopes of resolving some o the problems with the Enfield revolver.
The Enfield used a selective ejection system that was intended to dump empty cases but retain unfired live cartridges. It was a bit finicky, with the live rounds often moving during the ejection process and jamming the system up. The larger heeled bullets were hoped to help stop that - and they were also thought to provide better accuracy in the gun’s Henry type rifling.
Simplifications to reduce cost of the gun included:
Unchecked grips
Smooth holster guides
Simplified geometry on the lower frame and top strap
Semicircular front sight
Finally, a number of mechanical changes were made. Small elements were added to the clockwork to prevent cylinder rotation when not firing, and to lock the trigger and hammer when the loading gate was open. A second side plate screw was added to ease disassembly, and the grip attachment redesigned to use the lanyard ring as a screw to hold them in place. A fatal accident with an Enfield led to design of a hammer block safety that was intended to be universally retrofitted to guns in service, but many of the guns already sent out to far corners of the planet were never returned for this work.
In total, 13,102 MkII Enfield revolvers were made between 1882 and 1885, plus one gun each in 1886 and 1887. In 1887, the Webley MkI revolver was adopted to replace it, presumably much to the relief of Ordnance officers across the Empire.
For more info on the British service revolver cartridges and animation of the Enfield MkII mechanism, check out the C&Rsenal video on it:
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"ian roasts random gun for 15 minutes" is my favorite type of forgotten weapons video
The "I guess" gave me the funny little mental image of the designer not even bothering to say great things about it when presenting it to the guys that'll be using the thing.
Congratulations, you have been selected to use my invention in combat. It is mostly functional.
It's Ordinary Sausage's catchphrase
Something tells me that "not safe to carry with a round under the hammer" and "the cylinder can spin freely when the hammer is down and the fix for that barely works" makes for a particularly unsafe combination.
the gun is playing russian roulette with you. it may shoot at you. it may not. did the cylinder spin? who knows?
Yeah, that's an accident waiting to happen
@@corrinestenman5683Waiting to happen? It did happen, namely to a Royal Navy sailor doing survey work when getting back on a small boat. The revolver slipped from the holster and landed backside first, discharging and killing him.
This was a national scandal that led to their eventual replacement.
@classifiedad1 I remember from the video, and I doubt that was either the first or the last time that sort of accidental discharge happened (even if it didn't kill the gun's owner and cause a scandal), especially with overseas guns like this one not getting the safety upgrade that the British ones did.
@classifiedad1 It was a RN officer.
Love the C&Rsenal shoutout those guys deserve so much more exposure
Wish they would have continued with more "modern" firearms after their sks episode. I think they need.to not be afraid to evolve as a channel. Love those guys though!
Years ago while taking down an old trapper cabin in the interior of BC one of our group found an old Enfield Mk II inside a hollow in the walls. It was in terrible shape and looked like it was used as an expedient hammer more recently than it had been used to shoot.
This pistol helped Webley get their grip on British and Empire sidearms because it was so bad. An Army Officer buying his side arm would chose the Wembley over this revolver.
@@g6otu thanks predictive text strikes again😂👍
Churchilbought the c96. @@g6otu
God bless the Ant Army Officer
@@DeltaSierra0605 He's a famously busy individual. Always scurrying around on some errand.
That selective ejection system sounds like the Merwin & Hulbert revolvers. I will say I like the "hump" beneath the hammer though.
Just remembered how John Cleese used one of these in the movie Silverado :-)
Yeah, that’s my number one association with this gun too. Helluva film.
"As you may have surmised, I'm not from these parts."
...
"You're kidding."
Yeah he literally said that early on. Paying attention is cool
"Holsters guides" maybe the Secret Service should use them again hahaha.
🤣
Maybe the secret secret service should stop dressy bessy like a Hugo boss outlet store that doesn't have your exact size ... but it's half off so either I'm going to get fatter or thinner ... roll tide.
A certain member of the rubber gun squad could certainly use it
There is a reason that the last reigning British monarch to be assassinated was in 1066 ( executed by parliament doesn't count) and he was leading his soldiers in Battle.
@@andrewallen9993 That's... not an assassination, though, that's getting killed in a battle.
Would definitely love a video about British black powder service ammo like you mentioned!
1:45 how come it's goofy? To me it looks delightfully victorian with a hint of fantasy. Would look pretty good in something like Bloodborne
I have several Webley revolvers and I would love to get an Enfield revolver one day.
12:01 Could've cut off with "you could avoid these potential issues by... 'don't carry this gun'".
"Welcome back to Forgotten Weapons, I guess" said Ordinary Sausage, in a fever dream crissover episode I hope someday happens.
A teaser for the upcoming gunpowder sausage
The Hi-Point sausage
6:55 lol, more work to be done checkering the grips, but they retained that beautiful cylinder which probably accounted for 75% of the machining time for the gun. Brilliant.
8:07 yeah, that seems way simpler than getting a crimping die and adding a canelure to the bullet. These guys are geniuses.
There is some very nice machining on this weapon.
This gun was supposed to have improvements on paper but it's a pity that it essentially proved to be a huge mishap on practice, it's no wonder the British were more than happy to replace it with the Webley. Thanks for showing us this gun Ian.
Again this man is the GOAT and the human encyclopedia about guns. Thank you Ian for all the knowledge you offer for free to the world. And that revolver look awesome in my collection! Yes I'm a revolver fanboy and I own a lot of them👍👌💯
I wonder to the black powder load used a compressed charge of powder which could exacerbate the bullet creep issue. An example of a heeled bullet cartridge today is the .22 lr rimfire cartridge. Historically the 38 S&W cartridge used a heeled bullet. Why the 38 bullet today is a 36. (they kept the case size but reduced the bullet diameter to fit in the case and changed the barrel to match.)
British cartridge modifications seem to be counterproductive. I remember reading an article by Leroy Thompson when the .380-200 Enfield switched from a lead bullet to a 178-gr cupro-nickel jacketed bullet. The underpowered bullets would stick in the bore (Thompson related an anecdote where five slugs were stuck in the bore of one gun). The British Ordnance solution was to reduce the bullet diameter so the weak cartridges would pass more readily through the now oversized bore.
In my experience with British firearms, cars, sailboats, tractors, and other mechanical creations, they all have the same issue.
The British never design anything correctly from the start, they throw updates and fixes at the wall until eventually the final product “sort of” works.
It’s really similar to the “Agile” software development process.
@@PrebleStreetRecords For how good the end product ended up, this process applies to the enfield
@ “Hey let’s use a helical gear in our safety”
Every time I restore an Enfield I’m frightened by how many (manual!) machining operations each rifle requires.
I’d love to have seen their setup back then. It must’ve been rows of shapers and mills ten miles long, each set up with a jig.
@PrebleStreetRecords iterative design is a universal thing.
@ Big difference between iterative design and not having a plan to begin with.
Ian , will you ever make a video on the H&K CAWS shotgun? There is very little info on the internet about it nor a video of someone test firing it. Thanks and keep up the amazing work!!!
I would love to, but I'd have to find one somewhere outside of Oberndorf, as they don't want to share the one(s) they have.
@ForgottenWeapons I have been commenting about the caws for over 5 years now , so happy , hopefully one day you will make it 😊
It's a beauty.
🤔
Enfield revolver design would strike again in WWII. The only thing positive thing I can say about my No 2 Mk 1*(that somehow isn't a *) is that it doesn't kick.
You can say the same about the M1895 Nagant.
I guess the only good thing about this gun is that if your trigger stops working you can just manually index the cylinder and smack the hammer to fire.
The utility of such actions is debatable...
The ye olde timey version of tap rack bang. It's an innovation feature these plebs can't appreciate!
This gun is over engineered enough to be considered German
Not sure if that’s subtle admiration, or subtle insult 😅
If it was German,it’d work properly tho
@@tomwinterfishing9065Yes I’d expect something over-engineered to work perfectly and go on doing so … for ever.
Brit guns designers typically do a decent job with a simplistic original designs that needs slight tweaks, while also “fixing it until it breaks” with later revisions. Also redesigning your revolver because you can’t produce ammunition with appropriate case mouth tension takes some special thinking.
an outstanding recommendation better than a stick in the eye
In theory, theory and practice are the same thing, in practise they're not.
Quote by somebody, that came to mind.
Yogi Berra. But another Yogi Berra quote is, "You know those things I said? I didn't say them all." BTW, we Brits distinguish between "practice" noun and "practise" verb, US English doesn't, and you're sitting in the middle of the Atlantic, which is great. The spelling of the English language is nuts.
Thank you Mr. Ian I really enjoy your content Sir, between your knowledge and sauciness such as in this case in regards to the revolver you talked about, i could "hear" you being a bit saucy/spicy on how it wasn't that much better ☺️. Much appreciated Sir
I can see that lanyard loop coming loose under use. Hopefully any user would notice their grip coming loose before it came off entirely.
That's not really an issue. Once the gun fell off the grip and struck the floor, it'd shoot you...probably fatally. Thereby, eliminating your need to reassemble it.
@lightweight1974 man they thought of everything in those days. It's true they don't make them like they used to, though SIG USA is certainly trying.
Actually, for a mounted user, the sequence of events is as follows.
1) Lanyard loop comes loose, detaches, and allows the grip to fall off.
2) Enfield Mk.II falls to the ground and discharges, striking the user's horse.
3) Horse falls on user, inflicting fatal crushing injury.
@@christopherreed4723 double kill. Impressive.
Gun falls to ground due to disconnected lanyard. Fortuitously gun does not discharge. Unfortunately operator is garrotted by loose hanging lanyard catching on tree.
Ian, at 6:32, you said "Webley Mk II" when you meant "Enfield Mk II" 😉
Whoops, sorry.
That revolver's frame zigged when it should have zagged.
When I heard about the ejection mechanism I was pretty curious, when Ian explained it my brain went to "Yeah... that's definitively a bug, not a feature". Good in paper, bad in the field.
Australia Mentioned
I LOVE the Steampunk look that the revolver holds!!! 🎩🎩🎩 Thank you for covering it!
1:44 I highly disagree, I think it's one of the coolest-looking revolvers I've ever seen
holy ancient channel creation date
Would make a handsome paperweight.
I'd like to see a video on the new Indian Webley revolvers, I love top breaks and would love to know if they got it right. Maybe a BUG match video even.
Looking at the reloading system on this really gives me Merwin and Hulbert at home vibes.
Anyone else hyped for the black powder revolver cartridge episode at some stage?
so the cylinder spins, even if you do not want it to, it can fire if hit in the proper manner, safeties may work for some time, and it also disassembles the rounds sometimes.
the dude who made this is alive, and worse, he made the engine in my car!
From Sydney here, I’d like to see that pistol returned home 😂
"Better than the MkI, I guess"
Glowing endorsement.
Nice video. One small inconsistency regarding the lack of safety: _"just don't carry this gun with a live round under the hammer - easy"_ On a gun where the camber can spin freely? I don't think that's quite the easy fix that is should be. 😞
What an odd-looking revolver. I like it.
Anyone else feel like Ian is feeding us 5 + year old videos? I'm not complaining. I'm just concerned.
When covid first started, Ian said he has a LOT of videos for a rainy day. Just in case travel and museums become too difficult to visit.
Im concerned that something has happened to him and he is now relying on old videos to maintain an image.
In 1873 came the colt SAA or peacemaker, So this thing was obsolete by the time it came from the draaiing board.
I had a comment about you not explaining where New South Wales was, but I have confidence that your American viewers are alot more knowledgeable than the average American youtube viewer 😂
New South Wales is easy, it's where I live.🌏
@@sheerluckholmes5468 yeah it's across the 'ditch' from me...... bahahaha
this thing makes the Reichsrevolver look good.
Don't have a round in the chamber and the chambers freely rotate does not sound like a good mix tbh.
Fun fact: Elbonia was the only British colony that gained its independence by being willingly released from the Commonwealth by the british government...under the condition they take all the british firearms designers of the time as exilants.
Let me get this straight. It’s a break open revolver but you load it via a gate? LFMAO.
You may recall the old adage, 'To err is human but to really stuff it up is British.' 🤣
It looks like the same revolver John Cleese used in Silverado.
At 2:02, markings "VR Enfield". Hmmm. Why not "VRI Enfield"? Possibly one for Jonathan Ferguson
VR stands for Victoria Regina - Queen Victoria
@@Wendigo1974 Yes: but shouldn't the marking be Victoria Regina Imperatrix?
The very spartan 1883 Reichrevolver was excellent in comparison.
There’s a reason why ‘to the lowest bidder’ matters.
I always wondered why this gun had the "Mark of Zorro" frame dogleg. It was so empty cases can potentially clog and jam the action on ejection. No wonder the Brits obsoleted the pistol as fast as they did.
It may be a terrible revolver, but I'll be damned if I don't think it looks neat as hell.
The design and engineering approaches evident in this revolver will be familiar to anyone that has owned a British motor vehicle.
Better than a single action in 1880 i suppose...
Imma disagree with you abit there Ian. I think the front hinge actually gives the gun some visually distinct character.
A silhouette faintly reminiscent of some pulpy sci-fi blaster from 50 years in the future of when the gun was adopted, but not in an ugly way.
This would be an interesting part of a series "The Firearms of Lawrence of Arabia" as a follow up to the 'Guns of James Bond'!
IIRC he was recorded as having a C96 Mauser and later Colt Model 1911.
I bet Dr Moriarty owned at least one of those.
That has Star Wars blaster written all over it
The British sometimes have the tendency to issue guns that people don't like.
So, the un fired rounds come back but don’t fall out because there’s no room? When you bring the thing back, the rounds get pushed in again?
Had some 45 LC rounds losing the bullet seat and getting jammed on the forcing cone
Give me a Webley any day
I disagree . I think it looks great .
"...but they didn't!"
The whole reason behind creating Mark-something out of anything is being able to progress past Mark 2 without major improvement 😂❤
Just looking at it i can tell it is going to be rough
A more british reaction would be to sack the sailor and stop his pay as soon as the guy hit the ground (That's what happened to the Titanic crewmen).
Aaa the proto SA80 a2😉
are the guns behind you ones they cant sell? the m60 seems to have a permanent home there
Watches video
Revolver: 👁️ 👄 👁️
Breaks the action : 👁️ O 👁️
Are you going to cover the RARE, modern, Webley Mark-7 in .357 magnum?
Definitely an interesting revolver, but you did make one mistake: at 2:06 you say that it is 'All matching with serial number A343'
however, the backstrap and grips are both showing a serial number of 'A179'
That more than likely is a rack number for inventory purposes.
@@mannywilliams6409 well except they both have an A prefix.
possible co incidence, but unlikely IMO
Was it a Webley ,?
So it’s a more complex less affecting Merwin and Hulbert then?
"UK's firearm with a problems" ...
Almost looks like it is a mandatory thing there.
Too much drama, those unlucky ones who depended on this model, seems that they were more than mildly distracted while using and relying on its performance. A Rubiks Cube if I ever saw one. Thanks for demonstrating how the evolution of ideas, end up in the melting pot.
Not only do we desperately want to hear about the history of British black powder cartridges, we also desperately want to hear about the other pistols that thing beat out. (I’m assuming some politicking was involved in the decision.)
What's the gun to Ian's right?
The one with the carry handle.
That gun on the rack to the right of Ian is an Imperial Japanese Type 96 Light Machine Gun manufactured at the Kokura arsenal in February of 1939 (so listed in the Morphy catalog). It is chambered for the 6.5x50mm semi-rimmed Arisaka cartridge. Its top-mounted 30-round curved magazine gives it a profile reminiscent of the British and Commonwealth Bren Gun, and the Czechoslovak ZB vz. 26 light machine gun on which the Bren was based. It seems pretty clear that the Type 96 also was copied from or inspired by the ZB vz. 26, although it has a different bolt-locking system of Japanese design. The big flared flash hider is interesting: not fitted to other examples I have seen in museums and firearms literature.
@GrantThompson-m1k Thanks
@@the_KutonarchIan actually posted on 9 January 2021 a very interesting and informative video on his first experience shooting a Type 96 (one without flash hider shown here) on the range. Worth a look. Shows the attributes of the Type 96 very well, and comes with excellent advice on the preparations for safety and technical purposes that always should precede shooting old guns, especially for the first time.
I like how it is stamped "NSW" on the grip, as in "Not Safe for Work"
NSW is Newcastle Sydney Wollongong lol
@@paulgdunsford7469 I thought it would be for New South Wales?
Not much different to US which stands for 'UNSERVICEABLE'!
The modifications were implemented but it was kind of a kludge and they could wear out. Now THAT'S money well spent!
Carry with out one under the hammer is a great idea when your cylinder doesn’t move on its own 😂
The secret service ladies could use the "holster guides" on this sucker.
All of the complexity of a top-break, but with none of the benefits. Well done, Enfield.
Something tells me that this gun wasn't the product of 2 guys in a shed
lol, Owen gun was better than any commission firearm
Please do a video on British mid to late 19th century cartridges. That is the most confussing subject one can wrap ones head around.
Better than the Mark I? Sure.
An actual improvement? Barely.
You gotta wonder who approved the purchase of these things
1884 is a bit over 20 years before John Browning would come up with the pistol that will eventually turn into the 1911. But there was some simi autos out at the time if memory serves. I mean there definitely more functional revolvers. How much politics get in the way of an actual good side arm?
They tried to get as many curves on it as possible!
How about an "Enfield's worst design" video, in which Ian (and ideally Jonathan) try to figure out if this is a worse design than the L85A1? The idea could be applied to many other establishments.
Say what you like about the L85, but at least it wasn't likely to shoot you if you dropped it.
@@phuzz00 exactly that was the stens job.
Giddy-up!
The longer I look at it, the worse it gets.
What royal nepo baby pushed through the purchase of this design?!😂
Military sidearms at the time were rarely issued, they were typically purchased by the officer with his own funds. However, if I was an infantryman in the 1880s and saw my lieutenant carrying one of these, I would immediately start praying for a transfer to another unit, because this is a clear sign of poor judgment
Design by committee - never works well.
C&Rsenal has an in depth look and the MKI and MKII Enfields, including why the design choices were made.
How touching that you think the Royal family had any power. How very 17th century.
When I first saw the NSW (I live here) and the A, I kinda knew.
If it had been a better gun we would have a lot less kangaroos around today.
Onya Britannia . . . .
Can't double like, because Australian.
I'm wondering just how many people had accidents that made for funny stories. Ones that ended up being very bleak when you realise how terminal they could have been if in combat.
So, the ability to put into production a peculiar piece of engineering that almost makes sense is a foundational building block of today's current production motorcycle. Somehow that is not surprising...😂😂