29:22 Wow, I've never heard Bernardo compliment someone like this, took me by surprise if I'm honest. It really shows the degree of respect and appreciation for Michael and his work. Either way, thank you very much for the tremendous discussion between two titans, much appreciated 🙏
Agreed, and I've been following Bernardo for a few years now, but I've seen that happen many times during the last couple years as people discover Michael and his teams work and his wide variety of collaborators. Peace
I want to express my gratitude for bringing together these two wise and insightful individuals for such a rewarding discussion. It's truly remarkable that there isn't a larger audience for your outstanding TH-cam channel. I want to convey my heartfelt thanks. ❤
❤❤❤ Greetings from California👋. I deeply appreciate the difference in perspective between Kastrup and Levin, and I'm very grateful to hear such nuanced discussions as this with great thinker getting into profound topics with as much respect and friendliness as is demonstrated here. ❤
“Oh, wonder! How many goodly creatures are there here! How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world, that has such people in ‘t!” - The Tempest, by William Shakespeare. This stuff is fantastic! I will need to re-watch numerous times to even begin to wrap my head around all the profound implications here implied.
Absolutely fascinating! I'm so happy I stumbled on to Bernardo Kastrup and Michael Levin, just in time for my neuroscience course! It is a shame many professors lack any knowledge in metaphysics and paints a bleak materialist picture when it could be made so much more interesting. Hope this changes soon with the input of great thinkers like Bernardo and Levin, they sure have inspired me!
Regarding Levin’s first question about the felt imperative that led to the first disassociation (perhaps the first biology), I would like to offer my answer. I would speculate that some space-time separation is necessary between the observer and the observed. Moreover, self-referral puts restrictions on how much consciousness can know of itself; hence, we need to employ a mirror to see the back of our head, if not a mirror cosmology. That is, disassociation is a necessary condition that permits the relational realm where self-knowledge is possible. Otherwise, Levin’s cosmic boredom would lead to a bland existence. In this view, disassociation permits the holographic screen, or the Markov blanket, finding ourselves hopelessly entangled because we are One! Peace!
@6:53: If I may offer my own personal experience in regards to trauma not being self-induced, I created a self-induced trauma back in 2006 when I reacted to the acute thoughts and urges I was experiencing as if they were a physical threat to me. What resulted was a sense of depersonalization and derealization (dissociation) that lasted on and off for years, to the point where it was highly uncomfortable to just look in a mirror. I had to teach myself through the acts of acceptance and curiosity that my thoughts and sensations were okay, no matter when they happened and what their content. That 'cured' my dissociation.
@@adventuresinawareness Thank you! That time was really difficult. But it taught me a lot, and continues to teach me a lot, about the nature of my mind and body, my awareness, and my ability to ability to create experiences within me based on my choices. Thank you for offering a great platform for important discussions.
I know right! People can join the next one in March live, where we will Q&A with Bernardo and hopefully if there is time with Michael also - at this link: dandelion.events/e/w91sz
@@adventuresinawareness Well that sounds marvelous thanks but I’m not getting what that whole ‘dandelion events’ thing is about. Sign up/join asks questions about sexuality which seems highly suspicious to me. How is that relevant and is that even legal?
Hi @@skemsen - Dandelion.events is an events ticketing platform (like eventbrite) but also a way to connect with other people attending related events. You don't have to, but when you buy a ticket to an event you can create a profile, but you don't have to answer any personal questions that you don't want to, and you can buy a ticket without creating a profile. I hope that helps!
@@adventuresinawareness Okay thank you. It just looked like kind of a dating site with questions about this and if one is open for new friends, hook ups etc. Threw me off 🙂
I'm 20 seconds in, and I'm hooked. I love this guy. Mike is the best. He's doing the things I want to do. Being the person I want to be. So freaking interesting. I swear this is my dopamine fix. I see a new mike video in my feed and i’m like ohhh. All my interesting and intrigue sensors get tripped.
Great to hear you're enthusiasm! There are another two videos with Michael on the channel, and we hope to have a live call with him later this year - perhaps you can join!
This is fascinating to hear about the different perspectives on the universe. To me it's easy to understand if everything is a recording. That way i can understand time as the rate at which we perceive the recording. And it ties in with sharing in the spiritual realm. We need to perceive at the same rate so we can review each other's perspective as we perceived it.
What a wonderful conversation. Early in the episode (the one disassociating to the multiplicity) this came to mind: admittedly we tend to over anthropomorphize but I have to wonder if the “agitating” or “traumatic” event (or call it a catalyst) is something like love. Being personally familiar with the vertigo of infinity I know it’s devastating. So love fractures the oneness as love also pulls the multiplicity back to one in a perpetually creative way.
The reality is, there will be people more concerned about wether or not a robot (that doesn’t have pain receptors) is conscious, than wether or not factory slaughter houses (where real live beings are being mercilessly slaughtered one after another in front of the others) should be outlawed !!! The meat you eat was a real being with pain receptors that never got to walk on real grass , could barely take a step at all in tight small cages their entire tortuous lives, they never got to see the sun or feel the rain. You are what you eat, think about that the next time you feel hopeless or anxious or depressed.
This is so AMAZING! I'm so grateful for the work you're doing ans sharing your thoughts with us. This is really important stuff (with regards to what i.e. Daniel Schmachtenberger and John Vervaeke have to say about the 'meaning crisis'). I will check out the dialogues between Iain McGilchrist, Michael and Richard Watson now 🙂
I was once a researcher in biotecnolgy working on cloning. I took to research from consciousness hoping to contibute somthing to humanity in the process of leading my life. However, staying with my consciousness, I had to revolt and walk out if sytem to live as a farmer. However I carried the spirit of research and the quest to know truth. 'Deep Thoughts' about life and Nature came to me, when I an atheist had spirtual enlightenment in the spirit of Christ. Rigtnow at the age 65, I exist tucked in rented house, being tagged as failure in life and virtually thrown out. I wish I could share my thougts in some intellectal circles,
Regarding the memory phenomena: You should talk to horse breeders and trainers who work with cloned animals. Those show having the access to very similar memories and behaviour as the original animal. As they are cloned in the matured stage of development, apparently the copied animals share the gained experiences of the original.
By memory Mind can only know of itself in the past, by direct self-awareness only in the moment of the present, and it is only by extension of and inference from this self-awareness and from the memory which tells us that for some time awareness has been continuously existent that mind can conceive of itself in the future.
To time travel mentally, whether dreaming or when you’re using your imagination, memory is necessary or how would you know. Like an architect drawing up a set of plans for a house, the architect is remembering his thoughts of the future structure and drawing it on paper. Like carpenters , we view the future of what we are building .you make mistakes if you don’t see where you’re going. Sounds crazy but you remember the future
6:00 The blast from the thermonuclear bomb for the emotional centers that Bernardo Kastrup met on a psychedelic trip, and which thereafter can come unbidden from left field, is not generally known, as Bernardo poetically and acutely describes it, as the Vertigo of Infinity, but rather _Apeirophobia_ . It's a thing. And those who've had it feel it's the worst thing there is, without question. All are surprised, as I was years ago, to find that others have felt the heat and that there's an actual name for it. It can be a great relief to know that one is not alone in it (see the subreddit😊). It was also fascinating to hear Michael Levin relate it to boredom, and indeed boredom -- endless, cosmic boredom -- is one side effect of that that bomb. Not the cause though, imo. In general I'm free of the terror of it, but to reconsider here the possible metaphysical ramifications -- the cause of God's DID, let's say, sent some of the old anxious shockwaves through me. Not long ago I read a comment from an apeirophobic, whose intuition is that it is up to us humans to solve Reality's own problem with infinity. I thought: Yikes! He may be right!
Vedic literature says that the universal consciousness for the purpose of cosmic play (leela) gives rise to dissociative identities that must go through the nine fundamental emotions (rasa). Shringara: Love or beauty Hasya: Laughter Karuna: Sorrow or compassion Raudra: Anger Veera: Heroism or courage Bhayanaka: Terror or fear Bibhatsa: Disgust Adbhuta: Surprise or wonder Shanta: Peace or tranquility At the time of "awakening" the entire cosmic play or the drama along with dreamer disappears. The self realizes that no one was born, no one died, there was no sin, no joy etc..
01:50 Why did the universe dissociate? But could it have been different? What if boundaries are needed for the whole to self-perceive in some sense. Or what if boundary forming simply happens in "nature" (existence)?
50:00 As someone with a hobby in sensory expansion technology(fascinating field), and wondering about the future implications of it, this echos with my sentiment on what the furure holds in terms of "neuro-divergences". If our very cogntion is in part built up on layers of sensory experience, what happens when you start introducing new senses, will people be able to conceptualize, cognize in new ways? Like how a blind person may not have "visualization" skills same as sighted people might, what happens when someone has some new qualia on which to abstract into cogntion? How can we conceptualize something beyond our own umwelt in origin, in terms of how it might work its way into our own cogntive structures? How can a blind person understand the experience of sight and that influences our cogntion? (Or for the sighted, the lack of such a qualia) Or with extensions of the body, we already cogntively link up tools as an extension of the body (cars, hammers, phones, whatever we "use"), what if we can get more and more feedback from these tools, sensory wise? How would the sense of embodyment of "self" change? We can only hope such a future makes everyone more open to difference of mind, and understand that their experience, cognitive frameworks (speciation?), might offer vastly different perspectives than that of others.
This is mostly for Bernardo--I have been awestruck by your conversations with Michael L. and Donald H. It seems to me that at this point some definitions need to be clarified: What is consciousness, what is cognition, and what is identity-- and how do they relate to each other?
On that initial question on the fragmentation of consciousness being derived from an initial trauma experience, is that not the big bang? Throwing some woo out there (under my laymen language set)... can we not interpret the inception of our universe as a kind of duality realization, as the universe split itself into a mirror orientation? One side is expansion into everythingness, and the other is contraction into nothingness (from each side's orientation they are the point deriving ascension). At onset there is no separation of the two, as they are one in the same, just in mirrored orientations. But because there is nothing to expand into nor anything to contract from, the dual orientations reverse directionality from looking out from one another to looking in upon the other. Because each side is an inverse of the other, and not actually an equal, an error correction unfolds infinitely unto each other, unraveling as a plane of space time that connects them, who now sit on opposite ends of such, exponentially expanding in fractalization. This dualism error correction bootloop perpetually replays itself along that fractal itself, where every layer then has infinite points of fragmentation orientations that are experienced as egos, who then error correct their arbitrary points along the fractal subjectively in their orientation unto the fractal itself, rather than from it, asserting its own existence via an illusion of separateness, as was the same process from the initial epiphany of the universe. Because of this, duality is our default mechanism for experiencing and navigating our subjectivity, and non-duality is a mechanism we need to consciously enter into to realize our alignment with, and indistinguishability from, the universal consciousness.
I find interesting the fact that we can imagine what we cannot experience and conceive of what we cannot imagine. As an example, we conceive of infinity but cannot imagine it - yet it is a fundamental requirement for various mathematical and technological developments. How do you explain this as from an evolutionary standpoint?
I've experienced the metacognitive confrontation with the reality of eternity in a similar way. The time dilation and retrocausality were intense and my feelings afterwards were that metacognition is a virus of consciousness.
20:24 The "life review" phenomenon in the near death experience is pretty strong evidence that access to original events and our participation in them (however "long ago" they may have happened) are actually taking place in a timeless background that holds all of these events. It doesn't "store" them. There is no need for a cosmic hard drive. In some instances, in those NDEs, people are literally able to recall every tiny event, thought, or reaction that ever happened to them. Or so it seems anyway, and there doesn't seem to be an immediate reason to discount their testimony. So not only is this Big Trouble for the Little China of brain storage theories, but it is happening at a time or in a context where the brain is in severe crisis. As Bernardo suggests here, I think the normal dripping tap that the brain has running for access to memory gets bypassed and you somehow "Gestalt-grasp" the ENTIRE event-field that you've been associated with as a living human.
Thank you, a great conversation. Loved it. Would it be possible for the useful links to the work of? richard Watson scientist, UK. mentioned in the chat, please?
the first split of consciousness (dissociation is Kastrup's term, a bit awkwardly borrowed the term for a mental illness) is reminiscent of the first cell that split in biology, but the concept of the singularity in physics better aligns, obviously biology was a later split.
If you will indulge me a bit of a longer comment here now that I’ve had a chance to process this a bit more. First of all, a question for Michael (rhetorical, as I don’t assume he will read this comment). My understanding of the original rat experiments that Rupert (Sheldrake) references, is that said rats were taught to navigate a maze and improved their ability to traverse it. However, so did a control group of rats that were not exposed to the maze, as if the learning propagated across the whole species. Has Michael noticed any effect like this with control groups of planarian flatworms, especially with respect to learning applied by the worms taught something specific? Also, the question of where the information ultimately comes from. There is a puzzling and largely unexplored relation between what we might call “Platonic” forms or potentials and what we might call “evolutionary” forms or potentials. In other words, it’s not just that a potential triangle was somehow filtered by evolution or natural selection because it is the “fittest” kind of triangle we could have…it’s the ONLY kind of triangle we could have. There is existential inflexibility in what constitutes a triangle. I mean, there’s a small amount of wiggle room, but the basis of triangularity and triadic nature is for the most part self-describing. It can’t be different in our experienced world. The angles have to sum to 180. It has to be a closed shape. Etc. Now when it comes to something like an elephant, we assume that this is not the case. We assume that an elephant “could be different” somehow, perhaps even very different, and evolution can just select the fittest. But now, even here, and in light of some of Michael’s experiments, I am left wondering. What if nature or existence DOES in fact know of some “implicitly correct” actuation of a potential elephant which is really not that much different from the actuation of potential triangles? As if, when you lift something out of the potential and into the actual, If it really is possible to do that, existence somehow already knows what that means and how to do it correctly. In some way, potential is not just notional, but an existential set of conceivable forms. How do Michael’s Xenobots come into existence already knowing to be themselves successfully? They have never existed before. Do they just make a best estimate? Do they opt for what seems fittest and hope for the best? But how? It doesn’t seem likely. This can tie in with Bernardo. In an idealist picture, there would, as he says, have to be some kind of framework for salient forms, and salient here would mean some kind of actualisable potential (non-actualisable potentials may not be a meaningful construct). So maybe there is a kind of “idea-potential” for an elephant which actually IS something, it has ontic force or influence of some kind. Otherwise, the evolutionary-materialist story of new creatures coming into existence seems problematic (and always has seemed problematic to me). I’m not sure I see much evidence for the narrative that nature “tries out” millions of different forms and most of them fail because not fit. Again, Michael’s xenobots already seem to know how to be themselves. But then, maybe anything actually expressible knows how to be itself, because potentials are deeper than the manifest somehow. Whatever language one chooses…Platonic or whatever…we are still faced with this issue at least for mathematical objects, and quite possibly, if the above speculations have validity, for the objects of life as well. There may be some more flexibility than with a triangle, but I still think it is at least conceivable that even something like an elephant may have some kind of “central anchor” in the space of potentials. And if it is true for an elephant, it may well be true of all possible living forms. As always, just my speculations. Thanks for listening.
People worry about possible consciousness and suffering of AI or any other future manufactured creatures, this should be a good thing… but in the meantime they are torturing and killing innocent animals in factory farms and horror slaughterhouses, knowing they are sentient beings that suffer tremendously and we don’t need animal products at all?! I just can’t wrap my head around it and it breaks me 💔😢
8:00 fragmentation key 14:00 spacetime extensions, block universe 25:00 two headed worm 30:40 70/30, not escapees, morphogenetic 38:00 override cancer cells 43:35 feedback loop 31:35 underlying reality is consciousness 56:45 each life form is a system, the rest one system 1:01:15 AI conscious? 1:03:40 most computer scientists are merely power users😂 1:05:30 CS can't distinguish simulation with the underlying thing (rain vs simulated weather on desktop) 1:06:50 Richard Watson 1:09:20 how to tell boundaries btw parts. Empirically. 1:12:30 left brain cannot access right brain, one side religious, other side might. Talking = left hemisphere only 1:18:40 cognition, not consciousness. Cognition, ability to learn, esp ability to learn that parts cannot 1:23:00 we are not good at recognizing unfamiliar intelligence. Through behavior, so maybe weather has intelligence 1:25:30 chat gpt is language interface, not conscious 1:28:30 bioelectricity, morphic genesis. Info stored in Morphic electrical state 1:32:40 where does the info come from?
But maybe according to Graiaev codons have a quasi linguistic structure consisting of 23 synonyms and 23 homonyms which account for the diversity of amino acid/protein development.
So human Bernardo….the deep conclusions of super sharp, perceptive, intuitive thinkers is forever , misused, misunderstood and perverted by lesser minds who never did the incredibly hard work to understand reality
Why does the work of researchers such as Peter Gariaev and Luc Montagnier ever emerge in discussions relating to morphogenesis and the quasi-linguistic wave form nature of DNA and transfer of (100%) DNA using photonics, (lasers) accoustics and electromagnetic fields?
Everything comes from an undifferentiated conscious field. All information of the whole system exists in the conscious field. The state zero here is dissolved state information reorder and duplicate. Once the duplication is complete the original and duplicated threat separates into two cells in a specific way. The original template of the father takes the duplicate of the mother's and vice versa , this is followed by the conscious field splitting with
my simple question is why do we need a sleep? if cells are only in need of some vitamins, minerals and air, you keep taking it when u feel tired. What is that extraordinary thing happens which is possible only during sleep (deep sleep)? Human mind sees only what is shown by 'Maya'. and then generate its own inference about the information provided by his senses. so we're limited by our senses, so as Our miinds and that is why GOD didn't want us to control few things like breathing as discussed.
We can't see our own eyes or sense any of our senses via their own qualia because this is what they do in an ectoplasmic way. Could consciousness be conceptualized as an incorporated sense that also cannot explain or perceive itself and this is why it's so difficult to understand. Like a machine cannot fully understand itself.
Thank you for the interesting discussion. Mr. Bernardo seems to struggle to rationalize his intuition that computers cannot have consciousness. He refutes the simulation argument by stating that a simulation is not the same as the real thing. According to him, satisfying the same definition criteria doesn't make a simulation equivalent to the real thing. However, the essence of defining something as the same lies in adhering to same specific criteria. For instance, a simulated fish is not the same as a real fish, but this distinction arises from defining them by different criteria. Conversely, a regulatory process simulated on a computer and a regulatory process occurring outside the computer are considered the same because they are defined by the same criteria. Therefore, if you establish criteria for a conscious entity based on performing metabolism, then simulating metabolism on a computer must produce a conscious entity. The metaphor with a mannequin is also misleading. We presume that other people and some animals have consciousness because they look and behave similarly to us. If a mannequin behaves and looks almost the same as a real person, it makes sense to presume that it has almost the same consciousness as a real person. It is irrelevant whether it was created by nature or intentionally made to be similar.
Healing the generational trauma... Ive been trying to add/ grow a tail, on an off for years after successfully managing to leave my legs in my boots at the end of the day... 😂 A friend lent me a writers teaching book with a short story about a future reality where some fella had discovered how to step in out out of his body like a space suit in his future they started saving popular bodies for people to rent out 😂
While cosmic boredom and trauma are posited, couldn't cosmic humor and hilarity also suffice? Humor requires realizing a expectation or boundary has been violated or crossed and allows a distinguishment as compared to disassociated, our conscious is distinguished from a group or general one. Also wouldn't discovering a limit or border and being curious to interact with it allow this as well, so a complex relative to an individual consciousness (assuredly this requires a dual or dyadic conception as compared to monism, so a dual idealism supervening on an aspect of itself (dualism as distinguishment) or interacting with an other type of ideal or non-ideal
I actually am completely in agreement with that because I think 59:22 that uh the ability of some systems to establish these boundaries themselves 59:28 and to differentiate you know this autop poesis where the system itself tries to figure out where do I end and the 59:33 outside world begins that's critical so systems that don't do that I I agree with you that uh that that's a that's a 59:39 very important uh I I I I still I would still say it's not zero for those kinds of things but that's okay that's a minor 59:46 thing uh I agree what what they need to do is to is to autop poetically establish their own boundaries and if 59:52 they don't like the ocean or like some of these other things if they don't work to establish their own boundaries then 59:58 uh there's not much to to to you know to it from The Experience point of view um 1:00:04 however uh I you know most people associate that with life and yes on this 1:00:11 planet so far mostly that what we call life are things that do that but it seems to me that we're not that far off 1:00:18 from knowing what the criteria are and I think autop poesis is one I think there's a couple of other thingsputting that 1:17:15 together with call friston's notion of Mark of blankets and active inference 1:17:20 because the mark of blanket is the boundary right if you can find those intermediary set of States you found the 1:17:27 boundary of some sort you can do that for life so could you do that for something else so that IIT and your uh 1:17:36 valian uh autopoetic Auto po pois autop potic right that's 1:17:44 not autopoetic uh idea and what your understanding of biology I think if we put that together 1:17:51 uh if those people who know what you're talking about came together and tried to sort of think this through we throw them 1:17:57 in a small island for a week like I was thrown into this year um I would respect 1:18:05 what comes out of that what I don't respect are computer scientists with a 1:18:10 big mouth and a lot of religious belief who do not understand computers and do not understand biology making all kinds
You can simulate kidney function and it won't pee on your desk because you were simulating a physical phenomenon in silica. But you can simulate the processing needed to pick a Go move that no one has ever considered before and that wins a game against the best go player in the world because you are simulating a mental process in silica. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon . My consciousness can't pee either.
When you see infinity or eternity with a singular mind and ego it tends to burn you up or at least that was my experience because you are not equipped to visualize or experience eternity as a singular being and that is the exact reason why God can't do it and why God had to divide itself up into an infinite number of finite units to be able to match up on the one-on-one basis with infinity besides that can you imagine being all alone forever and ever all by yourself for eternity no one else there and nothing to do and nothing to learn and nowhere to go that's why a Unity is actually non-existent. So we serve a dual purpose for reality and existence to even be able to exist. I got into a debate the other day with a couple of Muslims and I was telling them this and they told me did I was wrong that God does not have to be limited in any way like we do and I was like what do you mean limited this is like God being Unlimited. Because they told me the whole reason we were created was just to worship God sounds like if that's the case that's such a childish immature narcissistic POS God that I would never ever have any respect for it what less worship it. Know the fact of the matter is that we are mandatory forgot to exist because we are God all of us together are God. In fact everything in existence not just this physical universe but everything behind it is god and goddess as well because the first division is not the division into an infinite number of finite units the first division is actually the split into a duality because the Duality is what brings all existence into being. I have a theory of everything that starts off from nothingness and goes all the way in a complete circle back to nothingness and it logically and mathematically and spiritually shows the way Beyond any doubt. I just can't get anyone to listen to me cuz I don't have no famous name or PhD but you know what I do have the truth
I pity the robots, stuck exclusively in the physical realm, whereas the natural way allows us to flip between the two (both the physical and the spiritual).
@6:25 But we know that traumatization is a mix between objective and subjective. Ones persons traumatization is another person's average learning experience. It's still of a spectrum. I have a mild form of DID and lol..uhh nm.
@@adventuresinawareness the TH-cam filters/controls... ..they promote superficial speech but the majority of the posts that I put thought, time, and truth into seem to disappear down the memory hole. Usually I remember to copy paste the important things because I know the patterns all to well but what happened here was typical. I hit send on a long important comment and nothing happened. It simply disappears. It's as if something is really trying to discourage me but I'm used to it.
Michael talks about all these fascinating experiments and yet, there’s no actual evidence for the existence of cells or DNA. So it’s almost like playing a really interesting VR game with only presumptive outcomes.
I will tell you exactly what caused the initial fragmentation and that is the fact that the unity is as impossible as absolute nothingness is. For various reasons I'm not going to get into but that's not even the main reason the main reason is that since God is all-knowing and our present then it is an absolute impossibility for One Singular being or thing or whatever to cover all of these things meaning one thing can't be an infinite number of things nitrogen one thing know one infinite number of things. The only way you can know anything is by learning it. One being no matter how large or how long lived or how powerful or no matter what basically can I ever learn an infant number of things as in a multiplicity of infinity while it is a singular thing or a Unity so the only answer for this problem is since this one thing is infinite in size and duration it can divide itself into an infinite number of finite units both temporarily spatially and materially their by matchup with the infinite number of things that it needs to accomplish and cover and know on a one-on-one basis is there by complete the infinity in one step. Cuz that is the only way you can ever complete an Infinity you cannot count an infinity in any type of sequential way just like you can't measure a spatial infinity.
29:22
Wow, I've never heard Bernardo compliment someone like this, took me by surprise if I'm honest. It really shows the degree of respect and appreciation for Michael and his work.
Either way, thank you very much for the tremendous discussion between two titans, much appreciated 🙏
Yeah it's great
They seem to hold each other in high esteem which is a great foundation for discussion
Agreed, and I've been following Bernardo for a few years now, but I've seen that happen many times during the last couple years as people discover Michael and his teams work and his wide variety of collaborators. Peace
I want to express my gratitude for bringing together these two wise and insightful individuals for such a rewarding discussion. It's truly remarkable that there isn't a larger audience for your outstanding TH-cam channel. I want to convey my heartfelt thanks. ❤
Thank you! We're hoping the audience will grow with time
Kastrup calling Levin the most important person alive is quite the compliment.
Thank you all very much… so many of us have developed an insatiable appetite paying attention to Bernardo Kastrup.
❤❤❤ Greetings from California👋. I deeply appreciate the difference in perspective between Kastrup and Levin, and I'm very grateful to hear such nuanced discussions as this with great thinker getting into profound topics with as much respect and friendliness as is demonstrated here. ❤
Thanks for sharing!!
I wish this would be a 1000 episode discussion.
Us too!
I love these two. I’m so happy you got them together. Makes me excited for a major paradigm shift in the near future.
I hope so
Your interviews with Michael are the best on TH-cam. Absolutely fascinating. Halfway through. …
Thanks! Great to hear 🙏
It is such a special delight that Bernardo and Michael are friends, and even moreso that they would share their insights with us. Thank you both 😊
“Oh, wonder! How many goodly creatures are there here! How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world, that has such people in ‘t!”
- The Tempest, by William Shakespeare.
This stuff is fantastic! I will need to re-watch numerous times to even begin to wrap my head around all the profound implications here implied.
Thanks for the comment! We agree rewatching has been very helpful
Absolutely fascinating! I'm so happy I stumbled on to Bernardo Kastrup and Michael Levin, just in time for my neuroscience course! It is a shame many professors lack any knowledge in metaphysics and paints a bleak materialist picture when it could be made so much more interesting. Hope this changes soon with the input of great thinkers like Bernardo and Levin, they sure have inspired me!
We hope so also!
They both are materialists non believers
@@swerremdjee2769 bK is not materialist, he is idealist. you got it wrong
@@alexmerab4206 now thats a term he likes to use, he is a materialist who lacks empathy
@@swerremdjee2769 I know BK's work very well, and he is absolute idealist. No, he does not lack empathy - where did you bring it from?
My 2 favorite intellectuals ❤. Greet from Holland
awesome! Maybe come join the next one live! dandelion.events/e/w91sz
Same
Thank you so much for this Mike and Bernardo!
Fantastic work, greetings and thanks from Cheltenham and UK Philosophers!
Regarding Levin’s first question about the felt imperative that led to the first disassociation (perhaps the first biology), I would like to offer my answer. I would speculate that some space-time separation is necessary between the observer and the observed. Moreover, self-referral puts restrictions on how much consciousness can know of itself; hence, we need to employ a mirror to see the back of our head, if not a mirror cosmology. That is, disassociation is a necessary condition that permits the relational realm where self-knowledge is possible. Otherwise, Levin’s cosmic boredom would lead to a bland existence. In this view, disassociation permits the holographic screen, or the Markov blanket, finding ourselves hopelessly entangled because we are One! Peace!
thank you! nice perspective
@6:53: If I may offer my own personal experience in regards to trauma not being self-induced, I created a self-induced trauma back in 2006 when I reacted to the acute thoughts and urges I was experiencing as if they were a physical threat to me. What resulted was a sense of depersonalization and derealization (dissociation) that lasted on and off for years, to the point where it was highly uncomfortable to just look in a mirror. I had to teach myself through the acts of acceptance and curiosity that my thoughts and sensations were okay, no matter when they happened and what their content. That 'cured' my dissociation.
Thanks for sharing that, and well done for getting through it
@@adventuresinawareness Thank you! That time was really difficult. But it taught me a lot, and continues to teach me a lot, about the nature of my mind and body, my awareness, and my ability to ability to create experiences within me based on my choices.
Thank you for offering a great platform for important discussions.
Just amazing! Thank you!
Our pleasure!
I am so grateful to be able to witness these conversations. Thank you so much - and as the man says: What a time to be a live! ☺️
I know right!
People can join the next one in March live, where we will Q&A with Bernardo and hopefully if there is time with Michael also - at this link: dandelion.events/e/w91sz
@@adventuresinawareness Well that sounds marvelous thanks but I’m not getting what that whole ‘dandelion events’ thing is about. Sign up/join asks questions about sexuality which seems highly suspicious to me. How is that relevant and is that even legal?
Hi @@skemsen - Dandelion.events is an events ticketing platform (like eventbrite) but also a way to connect with other people attending related events. You don't have to, but when you buy a ticket to an event you can create a profile, but you don't have to answer any personal questions that you don't want to, and you can buy a ticket without creating a profile. I hope that helps!
@@adventuresinawareness Okay thank you. It just looked like kind of a dating site with questions about this and if one is open for new friends, hook ups etc. Threw me off 🙂
@@skemsen ok good to know! I've passed on that feedback to the events platform 🙏🙏
Greetings from Brazil🇧🇷🇧🇷
Thanks for this great interview!!!
Welcome! So glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the encouraging words.
extraordinary encounter!
Thanks! We agree
Wonderful Wonderful Wonderful and amazing and exciting and beautiful, not to mention; brilliant, and also intuitively so familiar...
Thanks for the kind words!
Thank you for sharing 😊
Thanks for engaging!
I'm 20 seconds in, and I'm hooked. I love this guy. Mike is the best. He's doing the things I want to do. Being the person I want to be. So freaking interesting. I swear this is my dopamine fix. I see a new mike video in my feed and i’m like ohhh. All my interesting and intrigue sensors get tripped.
Great to hear you're enthusiasm!
There are another two videos with Michael on the channel, and we hope to have a live call with him later this year - perhaps you can join!
Man these guys are so smart.
and generous with their time, so grateful we can get them to share
@@adventuresinawarenesstruth!
This is fascinating to hear about the different perspectives on the universe. To me it's easy to understand if everything is a recording.
That way i can understand time as the rate at which we perceive the recording. And it ties in with sharing in the spiritual realm. We need to perceive at the same rate so we can review each other's perspective as we perceived it.
What a wonderful conversation. Early in the episode (the one disassociating to the multiplicity) this came to mind: admittedly we tend to over anthropomorphize but I have to wonder if the “agitating” or “traumatic” event (or call it a catalyst) is something like love. Being personally familiar with the vertigo of infinity I know it’s devastating. So love fractures the oneness as love also pulls the multiplicity back to one in a perpetually creative way.
Nice reflections... thanks 🙏
Intrigueing and immensely interesting, like the last talk with Bernardo and Michael. Thanks. I would love to hear more about the platonic space stuff.
That's the plan for the next talk - you can join live at this link if you can: dandelion.events/e/w91sz
These talks are gold
Thank you!
You can join the next one in March live at this link, by the way: dandelion.events/e/w91sz
I love how open minded Michael Levin is
It's a special combination of open-minded yet rigorous in his science. Great to have him doing this work
So open-minded his brain fell out
@@connectingupthedots 😂😂😂
What a fascinating discussion! Thank you!
Phenemonal discussion. Thank you for sharing your minds
thanks so much for the comment!
Hare Krisna! Great thinkers
I really got a much better sense of Bernardo’s subtlety and nuance here as opposed to last one!
I agree! Me too
The reality is, there will be people more concerned about wether or not a robot (that doesn’t have pain receptors) is conscious, than wether or not factory slaughter houses (where real live beings are being mercilessly slaughtered one after another in front of the others) should be outlawed !!! The meat you eat was a real being with pain receptors that never got to walk on real grass , could barely take a step at all in tight small cages their entire tortuous lives, they never got to see the sun or feel the rain. You are what you eat, think about that the next time you feel hopeless or anxious or depressed.
I had exactly the same thought, thank you for commenting, I’m glad that at least I’m not the only one here 🙏🏻❤
@@heleen313 thank you 🙏🏼
Bravo
I think the fragmentation serves a very practical purpose. It is mobility and exploration. It’s the mind reaching other coordinates of the mind.
I really hope for the part 3 and 4 ❤
Yes us too! Part three is March - you can join it live here: dandelion.events/e/w91sz
This is so AMAZING! I'm so grateful for the work you're doing ans sharing your thoughts with us. This is really important stuff (with regards to what i.e. Daniel Schmachtenberger and John Vervaeke have to say about the 'meaning crisis').
I will check out the dialogues between Iain McGilchrist, Michael and Richard Watson now 🙂
Thank you so much! So glad to hear it's useful
The universe is breathing. It disassociates, creating separation and form, and then “the wakes up”, returning to unity. Rinse and repeat.
No no nothing repeats. Infinite potential does create everything possible and everything is a fantasy world.
wow, Dr. Kastrup called HIM the most important person alive. That was intense.
I was once a researcher in biotecnolgy working on cloning. I took to research from consciousness hoping to contibute somthing to humanity in the process of leading my life. However, staying with my consciousness, I had to revolt and walk out if sytem to live as a farmer.
However I carried the spirit of research and the quest to know truth. 'Deep Thoughts' about life and Nature came to me, when I an atheist had spirtual enlightenment in the spirit of Christ.
Rigtnow at the age 65, I exist tucked in rented house, being tagged as failure in life and virtually thrown out. I wish I could share my thougts in some intellectal circles,
Regarding the memory phenomena: You should talk to horse breeders and trainers who work with cloned animals. Those show having the access to very similar memories and behaviour as the original animal. As they are cloned in the matured stage of development, apparently the copied animals share the gained experiences of the original.
By memory Mind can only know of itself in the past, by direct self-awareness only in the moment of the present, and it is only by extension of and inference from this self-awareness and from the memory which tells us that for some time awareness has been continuously existent that mind can conceive of itself in the future.
great comment, thanks
To time travel mentally, whether dreaming or when you’re using your imagination, memory is necessary or how would you know. Like an architect drawing up a set of plans for a house, the architect is remembering his thoughts of the future structure and drawing it on paper. Like carpenters , we view the future of what we are building .you make mistakes if you don’t see where you’re going. Sounds crazy but you remember the future
6:00 The blast from the thermonuclear bomb for the emotional centers that Bernardo Kastrup met on a psychedelic trip, and which thereafter can come unbidden from left field, is not generally known, as Bernardo poetically and acutely describes it, as the Vertigo of Infinity, but rather _Apeirophobia_ . It's a thing. And those who've had it feel it's the worst thing there is, without question. All are surprised, as I was years ago, to find that others have felt the heat and that there's an actual name for it. It can be a great relief to know that one is not alone in it (see the subreddit😊).
It was also fascinating to hear Michael Levin relate it to boredom, and indeed boredom -- endless, cosmic boredom -- is one side effect of that that bomb. Not the cause though, imo.
In general I'm free of the terror of it, but to reconsider here the possible metaphysical ramifications -- the cause of God's DID, let's say, sent some of the old anxious shockwaves through me.
Not long ago I read a comment from an apeirophobic, whose intuition is that it is up to us humans to solve Reality's own problem with infinity.
I thought: Yikes! He may be right!
Bernardo has had a similar intuition
Vedic literature says that the universal consciousness for the purpose of cosmic play (leela) gives rise to dissociative identities that must go through the nine fundamental emotions (rasa).
Shringara: Love or beauty
Hasya: Laughter
Karuna: Sorrow or compassion
Raudra: Anger
Veera: Heroism or courage
Bhayanaka: Terror or fear
Bibhatsa: Disgust
Adbhuta: Surprise or wonder
Shanta: Peace or tranquility
At the time of "awakening" the entire cosmic play or the drama along with dreamer disappears. The self realizes that no one was born, no one died, there was no sin, no joy etc..
01:50 Why did the universe dissociate? But could it have been different? What if boundaries are needed for the whole to self-perceive in some sense. Or what if boundary forming simply happens in "nature" (existence)?
I don't think there's a single person watching this, that hasn't heard Bernardo's kidney function simulation example 😂❤much love to him
50:00 As someone with a hobby in sensory expansion technology(fascinating field), and wondering about the future implications of it, this echos with my sentiment on what the furure holds in terms of "neuro-divergences".
If our very cogntion is in part built up on layers of sensory experience, what happens when you start introducing new senses, will people be able to conceptualize, cognize in new ways?
Like how a blind person may not have "visualization" skills same as sighted people might, what happens when someone has some new qualia on which to abstract into cogntion?
How can we conceptualize something beyond our own umwelt in origin, in terms of how it might work its way into our own cogntive structures? How can a blind person understand the experience of sight and that influences our cogntion? (Or for the sighted, the lack of such a qualia)
Or with extensions of the body, we already cogntively link up tools as an extension of the body (cars, hammers, phones, whatever we "use"), what if we can get more and more feedback from these tools, sensory wise? How would the sense of embodyment of "self" change?
We can only hope such a future makes everyone more open to difference of mind, and understand that their experience, cognitive frameworks (speciation?), might offer vastly different perspectives than that of others.
Great thoughts. Here's hoping for that outcome also - I think that is part of what Michael feels is important about his work
This is mostly for Bernardo--I have been awestruck by your conversations with Michael L. and Donald H. It seems to me that at this point some definitions need to be clarified: What is consciousness, what is cognition, and what is identity-- and how do they relate to each other?
On that initial question on the fragmentation of consciousness being derived from an initial trauma experience, is that not the big bang?
Throwing some woo out there (under my laymen language set)... can we not interpret the inception of our universe as a kind of duality realization, as the universe split itself into a mirror orientation? One side is expansion into everythingness, and the other is contraction into nothingness (from each side's orientation they are the point deriving ascension). At onset there is no separation of the two, as they are one in the same, just in mirrored orientations. But because there is nothing to expand into nor anything to contract from, the dual orientations reverse directionality from looking out from one another to looking in upon the other. Because each side is an inverse of the other, and not actually an equal, an error correction unfolds infinitely unto each other, unraveling as a plane of space time that connects them, who now sit on opposite ends of such, exponentially expanding in fractalization. This dualism error correction bootloop perpetually replays itself along that fractal itself, where every layer then has infinite points of fragmentation orientations that are experienced as egos, who then error correct their arbitrary points along the fractal subjectively in their orientation unto the fractal itself, rather than from it, asserting its own existence via an illusion of separateness, as was the same process from the initial epiphany of the universe.
Because of this, duality is our default mechanism for experiencing and navigating our subjectivity, and non-duality is a mechanism we need to consciously enter into to realize our alignment with, and indistinguishability from, the universal consciousness.
Makes sense to me - thanks for the thoughtful comment 🙏
Maybe memory based on Socrates and the Akashic records. Memory is recollection or a "tapping into" a Cosmic database of all memories - maybe?
no one seems to know just yet - good to collect lots of proposals
I find interesting the fact that we can imagine what we cannot experience and conceive of what we cannot imagine. As an example, we conceive of infinity but cannot imagine it - yet it is a fundamental requirement for various mathematical and technological developments. How do you explain this as from an evolutionary standpoint?
Great question! maybe come to the next live event and contribute this directly dandelion.events/e/w91sz
I've experienced the metacognitive confrontation with the reality of eternity in a similar way. The time dilation and retrocausality were intense and my feelings afterwards were that metacognition is a virus of consciousness.
thanks for sharing - I've heard similar perspectives from others also. Makes a certain sense
Nice metaphor with manican….the Turing test!!
Thanks for this! Viewing from Edmonton 🥶
Welcome!
Great minds.
20:24 The "life review" phenomenon in the near death experience is pretty strong evidence that access to original events and our participation in them (however "long ago" they may have happened) are actually taking place in a timeless background that holds all of these events. It doesn't "store" them. There is no need for a cosmic hard drive. In some instances, in those NDEs, people are literally able to recall every tiny event, thought, or reaction that ever happened to them. Or so it seems anyway, and there doesn't seem to be an immediate reason to discount their testimony. So not only is this Big Trouble for the Little China of brain storage theories, but it is happening at a time or in a context where the brain is in severe crisis. As Bernardo suggests here, I think the normal dripping tap that the brain has running for access to memory gets bypassed and you somehow "Gestalt-grasp" the ENTIRE event-field that you've been associated with as a living human.
Thank you, a great conversation. Loved it. Would it be possible for the useful links to the work of? richard Watson scientist, UK. mentioned in the chat, please?
the first split of consciousness (dissociation is Kastrup's term, a bit awkwardly borrowed the term for a mental illness) is reminiscent of the first cell that split in biology, but the concept of the singularity in physics better aligns, obviously biology was a later split.
Fragmentation might be necessary for Representations of interactions of the Ur-mind with itself.
If you will indulge me a bit of a longer comment here now that I’ve had a chance to process this a bit more.
First of all, a question for Michael (rhetorical, as I don’t assume he will read this comment). My understanding of the original rat experiments that Rupert (Sheldrake) references, is that said rats were taught to navigate a maze and improved their ability to traverse it. However, so did a control group of rats that were not exposed to the maze, as if the learning propagated across the whole species. Has Michael noticed any effect like this with control groups of planarian flatworms, especially with respect to learning applied by the worms taught something specific?
Also, the question of where the information ultimately comes from. There is a puzzling and largely unexplored relation between what we might call “Platonic” forms or potentials and what we might call “evolutionary” forms or potentials. In other words, it’s not just that a potential triangle was somehow filtered by evolution or natural selection because it is the “fittest” kind of triangle we could have…it’s the ONLY kind of triangle we could have. There is existential inflexibility in what constitutes a triangle. I mean, there’s a small amount of wiggle room, but the basis of triangularity and triadic nature is for the most part self-describing. It can’t be different in our experienced world. The angles have to sum to 180. It has to be a closed shape. Etc.
Now when it comes to something like an elephant, we assume that this is not the case. We assume that an elephant “could be different” somehow, perhaps even very different, and evolution can just select the fittest. But now, even here, and in light of some of Michael’s experiments, I am left wondering. What if nature or existence DOES in fact know of some “implicitly correct” actuation of a potential elephant which is really not that much different from the actuation of potential triangles? As if, when you lift something out of the potential and into the actual, If it really is possible to do that, existence somehow already knows what that means and how to do it correctly. In some way, potential is not just notional, but an existential set of conceivable forms. How do Michael’s Xenobots come into existence already knowing to be themselves successfully? They have never existed before. Do they just make a best estimate? Do they opt for what seems fittest and hope for the best? But how? It doesn’t seem likely.
This can tie in with Bernardo. In an idealist picture, there would, as he says, have to be some kind of framework for salient forms, and salient here would mean some kind of actualisable potential (non-actualisable potentials may not be a meaningful construct). So maybe there is a kind of “idea-potential” for an elephant which actually IS something, it has ontic force or influence of some kind. Otherwise, the evolutionary-materialist story of new creatures coming into existence seems problematic (and always has seemed problematic to me). I’m not sure I see much evidence for the narrative that nature “tries out” millions of different forms and most of them fail because not fit. Again, Michael’s xenobots already seem to know how to be themselves. But then, maybe anything actually expressible knows how to be itself, because potentials are deeper than the manifest somehow. Whatever language one chooses…Platonic or whatever…we are still faced with this issue at least for mathematical objects, and quite possibly, if the above speculations have validity, for the objects of life as well. There may be some more flexibility than with a triangle, but I still think it is at least conceivable that even something like an elephant may have some kind of “central anchor” in the space of potentials. And if it is true for an elephant, it may well be true of all possible living forms. As always, just my speculations. Thanks for listening.
We can gain the momory of the past by growing in the conscious field. We are now beong led to memory of the initial state
Sometimes being an arm chair Listener at 3am is so satisfying 😂❤🔥🔥
Nocturnal contemplations...
Absolutely 💯!! 🙏😀❤️
People worry about possible consciousness and suffering of AI or any other future manufactured creatures, this should be a good thing… but in the meantime they are torturing and killing innocent animals in factory farms and horror slaughterhouses, knowing they are sentient beings that suffer tremendously and we don’t need animal products at all?! I just can’t wrap my head around it and it breaks me 💔😢
Very good point
Fascinating show. The man bun is a little much dude. 😂 meant in good fun.
I know it's getting ridiculous
Struggling to find the Q&A that followed with Bernardo. Does anyone have a link to that??
You can access the Q&A recording here: dandelion.events/e/p7xm2
And find out about other events here: adventuresinawareness.com/events
Thank you!
I really agree with Bernardo about disrespecting most of the computer scientist clueless wooo about sentient computer AI as currently understood!!!!
8:00 fragmentation key 14:00 spacetime extensions, block universe 25:00 two headed worm 30:40 70/30, not escapees, morphogenetic 38:00 override cancer cells 43:35 feedback loop 31:35 underlying reality is consciousness 56:45 each life form is a system, the rest one system 1:01:15 AI conscious? 1:03:40 most computer scientists are merely power users😂 1:05:30 CS can't distinguish simulation with the underlying thing (rain vs simulated weather on desktop) 1:06:50 Richard Watson 1:09:20 how to tell boundaries btw parts. Empirically. 1:12:30 left brain cannot access right brain, one side religious, other side might. Talking = left hemisphere only 1:18:40 cognition, not consciousness. Cognition, ability to learn, esp ability to learn that parts cannot 1:23:00 we are not good at recognizing unfamiliar intelligence. Through behavior, so maybe weather has intelligence 1:25:30 chat gpt is language interface, not conscious 1:28:30 bioelectricity, morphic genesis. Info stored in Morphic electrical state 1:32:40 where does the info come from?
Amazing! Thanks
I have a response to Micheals' first question, it was a series of energy density threshold driven fractal bifurcations
But maybe according to Graiaev codons have a quasi linguistic structure consisting of 23 synonyms and 23 homonyms which account for the diversity of amino acid/protein development.
regarding the worst genome: redundance is the key ;)
Listening from Michigan August 2024 ❤
So human Bernardo….the deep conclusions of super sharp, perceptive, intuitive thinkers is forever , misused, misunderstood and perverted by lesser minds who never did the incredibly hard work to understand reality
what if the first dissociation was due to the deepest sense of loneliness..."oneliness"
I like that term
❤❤❤❤
Why cant we think of memory existing diffused in concious field.
Somebody triple this guy's budget! 😂
Why does the work of researchers such as Peter Gariaev and Luc Montagnier ever emerge in discussions relating to morphogenesis and the quasi-linguistic wave form nature of DNA and transfer of (100%) DNA using photonics, (lasers) accoustics and electromagnetic fields?
We're meeting these two again in March dandelion.events/e/w91sz perhaps you can pose this question directly?
Everything comes from an undifferentiated conscious field. All information of the whole system exists in the conscious field.
The state zero here is dissolved state information reorder and duplicate. Once the duplication is complete the original and duplicated threat separates into two cells in a specific way. The original template of the father takes the duplicate of the mother's and vice versa , this is followed by the conscious field splitting with
my simple question is why do we need a sleep? if cells are only in need of some vitamins, minerals and air, you keep taking it when u feel tired. What is that extraordinary thing happens which is possible only during sleep (deep sleep)? Human mind sees only what is shown by 'Maya'. and then generate its own inference about the information provided by his senses. so we're limited by our senses, so as Our miinds and that is why GOD didn't want us to control few things like breathing as discussed.
We can't see our own eyes or sense any of our senses via their own qualia because this is what they do in an ectoplasmic way. Could consciousness be conceptualized as an incorporated sense that also cannot explain or perceive itself and this is why it's so difficult to understand. Like a machine cannot fully understand itself.
Thank you for the interesting discussion.
Mr. Bernardo seems to struggle to rationalize his intuition that computers cannot have consciousness.
He refutes the simulation argument by stating that a simulation is not the same as the real thing. According to him, satisfying the same definition criteria doesn't make a simulation equivalent to the real thing. However, the essence of defining something as the same lies in adhering to same specific criteria. For instance, a simulated fish is not the same as a real fish, but this distinction arises from defining them by different criteria. Conversely, a regulatory process simulated on a computer and a regulatory process occurring outside the computer are considered the same because they are defined by the same criteria.
Therefore, if you establish criteria for a conscious entity based on performing metabolism, then simulating metabolism on a computer must produce a conscious entity.
The metaphor with a mannequin is also misleading. We presume that other people and some animals have consciousness because they look and behave similarly to us. If a mannequin behaves and looks almost the same as a real person, it makes sense to presume that it has almost the same consciousness as a real person. It is irrelevant whether it was created by nature or intentionally made to be similar.
I just end up laughing how much this stuff blows my mind. What is there to say?!
Healing the generational trauma... Ive been trying to add/ grow a tail, on an off for years after successfully managing to leave my legs in my boots at the end of the day... 😂 A friend lent me a writers teaching book with a short story about a future reality where some fella had discovered how to step in out out of his body like a space suit in his future they started saving popular bodies for people to rent out 😂
Two big ones
Sometimes Michael Levin scares me
The Fragmented Trauma of Loneliness?
I might make the claim that any system which is a mechanism in a Robert Rosen sense probably has minimal interiority
While cosmic boredom and trauma are posited, couldn't cosmic humor and hilarity also suffice? Humor requires realizing a expectation or boundary has been violated or crossed and allows a distinguishment as compared to disassociated, our conscious is distinguished from a group or general one. Also wouldn't discovering a limit or border and being curious to interact with it allow this as well, so a complex relative to an individual consciousness (assuredly this requires a dual or dyadic conception as compared to monism, so a dual idealism supervening on an aspect of itself (dualism as distinguishment) or interacting with an other type of ideal or non-ideal
I actually am completely in agreement with that because I think
59:22
that uh the ability of some systems to establish these boundaries themselves
59:28
and to differentiate you know this autop poesis where the system itself tries to figure out where do I end and the
59:33
outside world begins that's critical so systems that don't do that I I agree with you that uh that that's a that's a
59:39
very important uh I I I I still I would still say it's not zero for those kinds of things but that's okay that's a minor
59:46
thing uh I agree what what they need to do is to is to autop poetically establish their own boundaries and if
59:52
they don't like the ocean or like some of these other things if they don't work to establish their own boundaries then
59:58
uh there's not much to to to you know to it from The Experience point of view um
1:00:04
however uh I you know most people associate that with life and yes on this
1:00:11
planet so far mostly that what we call life are things that do that but it seems to me that we're not that far off
1:00:18
from knowing what the criteria are and I think autop poesis is one I think there's a couple of other thingsputting that
1:17:15
together with call friston's notion of Mark of blankets and active inference
1:17:20
because the mark of blanket is the boundary right if you can find those intermediary set of States you found the
1:17:27
boundary of some sort you can do that for life so could you do that for something else so that IIT and your uh
1:17:36
valian uh autopoetic Auto po pois autop potic right that's
1:17:44
not autopoetic uh idea and what your understanding of biology I think if we put that together
1:17:51
uh if those people who know what you're talking about came together and tried to sort of think this through we throw them
1:17:57
in a small island for a week like I was thrown into this year um I would respect
1:18:05
what comes out of that what I don't respect are computer scientists with a
1:18:10
big mouth and a lot of religious belief who do not understand computers and do not understand biology making all kinds
Wonder has Michael ever talked with Dawkins etc? His work is potentially Earth shattering.
Not sure - good question.
You can simulate kidney function and it won't pee on your desk because you were simulating a physical phenomenon in silica. But you can simulate the processing needed to pick a Go move that no one has ever considered before and that wins a game against the best go player in the world because you are simulating a mental process in silica. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon . My consciousness can't pee either.
But but what if he cures cancer and the cured turn to screening zombies like in that Will Smith film😮
I guess Will Smith will have to save us
😂
When you see infinity or eternity with a singular mind and ego it tends to burn you up or at least that was my experience because you are not equipped to visualize or experience eternity as a singular being and that is the exact reason why God can't do it and why God had to divide itself up into an infinite number of finite units to be able to match up on the one-on-one basis with infinity besides that can you imagine being all alone forever and ever all by yourself for eternity no one else there and nothing to do and nothing to learn and nowhere to go that's why a Unity is actually non-existent. So we serve a dual purpose for reality and existence to even be able to exist. I got into a debate the other day with a couple of Muslims and I was telling them this and they told me did I was wrong that God does not have to be limited in any way like we do and I was like what do you mean limited this is like God being Unlimited. Because they told me the whole reason we were created was just to worship God sounds like if that's the case that's such a childish immature narcissistic POS God that I would never ever have any respect for it what less worship it. Know the fact of the matter is that we are mandatory forgot to exist because we are God all of us together are God. In fact everything in existence not just this physical universe but everything behind it is god and goddess as well because the first division is not the division into an infinite number of finite units the first division is actually the split into a duality because the Duality is what brings all existence into being. I have a theory of everything that starts off from nothingness and goes all the way in a complete circle back to nothingness and it logically and mathematically and spiritually shows the way Beyond any doubt. I just can't get anyone to listen to me cuz I don't have no famous name or PhD but you know what I do have the truth
I pity the robots, stuck exclusively in the physical realm, whereas the natural way allows us to flip between the two (both the physical and the spiritual).
By the way, my spirit guides want me to let you know that there is an infestation of book worm in the background.
@@chyfields😂😂
@6:25 But we know that traumatization is a mix between objective and subjective. Ones persons traumatization is another person's average learning experience. It's still of a spectrum.
I have a mild form of DID and lol..uhh nm.
Oh wow.. they're not going to post what I said hey
I tried..
Man if people could just see the things that I have seen
What do you mean about 'they are not going to post' - from what I can see your comment has come through. Did you try post more that was removed?
@@adventuresinawareness the TH-cam filters/controls...
..they promote superficial speech but the majority of the posts that I put thought, time, and truth into seem to disappear down the memory hole.
Usually I remember to copy paste the important things because I know the patterns all to well but what happened here was typical. I hit send on a long important comment and nothing happened. It simply disappears. It's as if something is really trying to discourage me but I'm used to it.
Michael talks about all these fascinating experiments and yet, there’s no actual evidence for the existence of cells or DNA. So it’s almost like playing a really interesting VR game with only presumptive outcomes.
It sounds a lot like superdetermenism
I will tell you exactly what caused the initial fragmentation and that is the fact that the unity is as impossible as absolute nothingness is. For various reasons I'm not going to get into but that's not even the main reason the main reason is that since God is all-knowing and our present then it is an absolute impossibility for One Singular being or thing or whatever to cover all of these things meaning one thing can't be an infinite number of things nitrogen one thing know one infinite number of things. The only way you can know anything is by learning it. One being no matter how large or how long lived or how powerful or no matter what basically can I ever learn an infant number of things as in a multiplicity of infinity while it is a singular thing or a Unity so the only answer for this problem is since this one thing is infinite in size and duration it can divide itself into an infinite number of finite units both temporarily spatially and materially their by matchup with the infinite number of things that it needs to accomplish and cover and know on a one-on-one basis is there by complete the infinity in one step. Cuz that is the only way you can ever complete an Infinity you cannot count an infinity in any type of sequential way just like you can't measure a spatial infinity.
I like where you are going with this😮
Avoid mammal milk and meat can stop cancer in human??..
Lol no. YOU ACTUALLY NEED CARNIVORE DIET TO HEAL. Meat and animal fat is regenerative to the human body. Veg diet is to curb urges
Love how humble Michael is compared to kastrups need to compare how bad everyone else is at this lol