You're trying to make sense out of nonsense. Some if not most hiring managers and recruiters are ridiculous. Without three years of experience you cannot get a job and without a entry level job willing to pay while you learn than you cannot get three years of experience. Three years working on your own projects doesn't count as work experience. Some entry level positions want 5 years of experience. Some job listings want three years of experience with technology that came out six months ago. Some don't like employment gaps for extreme specialty work. Some don't like to see job turnover in an industry that refuses to even give cost of living increases let alone give increases progressive enough to keep up with the acquisitions of expected skills. Job hopping is the only way to get a decent wage in the software industry. I have sat at a tables with managers complaining about not finding qualified candidates in a room full of capable programmers looking for work. I learned a long time ago that programmers should never try to second guess what recruiters and hiring managers think because in this industry they are ridiculous. You cannot apply sense to nonsense.
Please stop using acronym too much it becomes annoying 😒 your speech will not be understood when you use too much acronyms and using too many acronyms wont make anyone sound smarter or genus it only make that person sounds puffy and bragging
@@RahulPandeyrkp sorry i get mad when i heard acronyms and just stopped the video and left, i don't have time for google hundreds of acronyms every month that i hear in many other youtubers i get tired of that bs and i just unsubscribe from any channel that use too much acronyms it became a trend but viewers get lost 😏
As an ex-Oracle employee, I 100% agree. I became a "lazy developer". Despite doing a lot of things, the pace of dev was so slow that I felt I did nothing. There was also a year when the entire team of 7 people fixed just 10 production issues. Would I join Oracle again? Yep definitely. The colleagues that I worked with were out of the world. Oracle added a lot of weight to my resume eventually helping me to get into a better position. I won't be staying there for 5 years as I did previously.
Promotions and leveling up usually involves company bureaucracy along with performance of the individual. Not everyone will get away lucky. But if you can back your work with data and proven skills, changing after a long time should not be a concern IMO.
'...long enough to see the damage you have done' rings true for me. I've learned so much just thinking about the code i wrote and maintained it. So many learnings and you ramp up exponentially.
Apparently the secret to jumping into mid-high management is to take credit and then promote out before you see the damage haha. Lots of stories from my grumpy senior engineers about people who did that...
Really nice video. I was having a conversation about that with my manager telling me that we would rather hire someone that may stick with our company for 5y (semiconductor industry) but is not a top performer than a genius job hopping.
I was planning on leaving my first non-intern position after a year, then the pandemic happened and i decided to stay here until it ended since i have good job security here and i prefer going into the office if i'm going to start working somewhere new. Turns out the pandemic hasn't ended and i'm at this place for 3 and a half years now lol, hope it isn't too long.
3-4 is a great time to switch into a new company. Especially since this is your first non-intern position. I would really emphasize everything you've learned over those 3+ years on your resume and in interviews. Good luck!
This is really great insight, Rahul. I own a tech recruitment business, and we often have to have this conversation with potential candidates (and HM's!); it's such an emotionally charged area for some reason.
Thanks Thomas, I've seen how engineers feel like they are "starting at negative" due to the assumptions others will make, but hopefully the explanation in this video can help them provide good explanations.
I left my 3D job after 6months with 1 month notice period which i gave. When i joined i got my offer letter after 1month. Its been 1 week i left i haven't got my documents. Idk wtf the HR is doing. If you're gonna shove _'company policies'_ down I expect you to be professional enough to give the employee all the required documents
At 6:13, the example of Oracle that you gave surprised me because it was quite similar to my reason for leaving Oracle (although I left it after 1.5 years). I eventually joined Microsoft where I obviously got better work to do. Thanks for sharing such meaningful insights about these not so discussed topics.
Hey Zetro, I have recently joined Oracle and I too feel that the pace of work here is too slow as compared to my previous org. Can I please connect with you once, as I too am thinking of moving out before I fall into the comfort zone. Can you please share any of your socials you feel comfortable connecting at, if at all?
You should make it clear you're talking about enterprise companies.. in startup land jumping between roles is much more normal. Staying in a role purely not to "be judged" is bullshit
Hi Rahul, can you share your thoughts on how to deal with below average cost-of-living raises (or even no raises)? It seems that employers are surprised when engineers want to leave when the employees take home pay is effectively reduced at the end of each year when given low raises. Financially it seems to make sense to jump ship as soon as possible. This does put some control back in the employers hands (to offer competitive pay year over year). I agree that it is beneficial to stay for at least a year. I just think much of the responsibility, however, is on the employer if they want to retain good engineers. Especially when their pay raises are not competitive. I think jumping ship for 10-20% raises each year or two should be done until a noticible limit has been reached on compensation. Then they should consider settling down for a bit. Any thoughts on that as well in regards to the average company (not faang)?
Job hopping early in career usually does make sense, like you said. It depends on the company and how many growth opportunities are available to you. If you can get a promo, you should get a raise (much higher than inflation), so I'd optimize for a job where you can achieve that in a year. The ideal strategy (if you're just maximizing compensation) is to work at a job until you get the promo, then interview around for roles at top companies at that level. You get the salary bump from the promo, and then another when you land the offer at the next company.
yea you meet people on discord/reddit who are "miserable" but they've also been at their place 7, 9 years etc. it's like, its your own damn fault for being miserable and not risking taking a new job, even if its same or less money, you'd be happier
Thanks , Rahul Pandey Could you please make a video on "communicating and collaboration with team members", it's difficult for me to have like a general discussion whenever we plan to go out to eat something. (Like when I'm not doing office work)
Insightful video, Rahul. Thank you for constantly providing value to us. Even though I'm not in the US and the industry culture around is vastly different from that of in the States, I still learn quite a lot from these videos.
Idk forming assumptions without speaking to a candidate may not be accurate. We’re trying to move towards being more open and accepting of individuals and their journey. If someone is able to do the job and happy to why not.Maybe interview them and ask them any concerns you might have before making your mind up. You could be wrong, and you are definitely shunning others because of your biases
No doubt they are stereotypes and don't apply to everyone. But when you are sifting through dozens to hundreds of resumes, you need to make a decision quickly about whether to interview them and job lengths do matter. Once someone makes it to the interview, as long as there is a reasonable explanation, it job lengths and history matters much less.
One of the issues is the American immigration system where thousands of employees are stuck with an archaic system. Even if you want to leave the company, there are instances where you are stuck working for your horrible team/manager due to visa issues and delays in your PERM/Green Card processes.
Job hopping is such a big trend now that companies are just not gonna waste time hiring people who look like they're just looking for a bigger salary every few years
@@asadb1990 It may be good for the person doing it (in the short term), but it's annoying for the people who spent their valuable time interviewing you, training you, doing your early code reviews and basically hand holding you through your first year. Those people don't get paid extra for that, and they still have full time workloads that they are responsible for. They invest that time in new team mates with the expectation that it will be a mutually beneficial arrangement, because in the long run you will able to help them shoulder the team's workload. Quitting after a year and a half means you've personally gotten the benefit of training but not yet given back meaningful contributions. Also, frankly the first year or so at new companies, learning new tech stacks and processes - it sucks. For exactly the reasons I just described. Any established, reasonably large organization is going to have a deep tech stack and quirky processes that slow you down as you learn them. I much prefer to be the person who knows all the answers than the person asking for help for things, or the person who is too afraid or proud to ask questions and just gets things wrong.
@@rdean150 dude what about the time candidates waste unpaid for doing interviews and then be ghosted? or when a company hires you and then you get laid off with no notice. its a business relationship that has been heavily favored for the employer but the current demand for workers has shifted the power dynamic. and most employees don't like to give employers bj like you. most employees want to do the bare min to keep job while employers want the most work for lowest pay. and after the first year most employers only offer 3% while market offers much more each year. by second year most employees fall way behind the market pay and its a huge hassle getting approved for more pay.
@@asadb1990 Yeah, all the things you described are terrible and make me angry as well. But that's why I didn't base my response on the position of the employer or even manager. I'm talking strictly from the perspective of a peer here. As a teammate and from the position of the person starting the new role. But I totally feel your position. Deeply. I have lived it and experienced it so personally that it did a real number on my mental health and changed my overall attitude toward my career significantly. We are punished for loyalty. No question about it. After 5+ years in the same company, we are almost guaranteed to be behind the salary curve. I'm just giving reasons why leaving after less than 2 years is not great either.
Internal team switches are not that visible on a resume or in an interview unless the candidate specifically goes into a lot of detail. It wouldn't trigger the "they are job hopping" reaction to me.
Well. I can tell you given corona i had to switch jobs twice and where i am now is fine but very very hierarchical and slow. So i am slowly but surley activley lookong for a new job and i know this is not ideal. But staying 3 years for the sake of it is not helping anyone
Thanks for the vid, really good to know about this view point starting out. I also wonder if these considerations go into who's called back and who's not🤔.
I work in supply chain and am about 3 months and 3 weeks in. I finish my MBA in December. Should I find a higher paying role even though by then, I'll only be at my current company for 8 months? The role doesn't pay great but could be much better.
One or two early career job hops doesn't have much of an impact on hiring (at not to me when hiring people). It is only an extended pattern of job hops that can be concerning. If you think you can use the MBA to find a better position, I'd definitely suggest making the jump as it will make a larger difference in the long run.
This employer/employee ROI conversation has been going on like this for over 30 years with no real solution implemented. Defining the problem from the perspective of a fallible human being is an exercise in futility, but worse then that second guessing what a brain farting hiring manager thinks causes great amounts of anxiety. Are you familiar with yin and yang. The solution is balance. Unfortunately, there can be no balance with dealing with a Borg collective. Resistance is futile. Prepare to be assimilated. Look at the ciaos that being out of balance creates. You cannot get a job without 5 years of experience, but you cannot get 5 years experience without a entry level job. Employers don't offer entry level jobs because the return on investment is not there if applicants job hop after a year. Of course, the Borg collective wants to maximize it returns all the time and to do that externalizes all the costs onto the job seeker. "We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile." This is the one sided perspective in a nut shell. 30 years from now we will still be having the same conversation because balance is never achieved.
I would like you to make one video on whether one should focus on breadth or depth during early periods of their software engineering career? On one hand we have core distributed system teams like Azure/AWS and on other hand we have other teams which are focused more towards business problems by using some of these services like ML infra teams, video/live events teams, data engineering etc... Is it advisable to have short stints (around 2-2.5 years) in atleast 2 of these domains during first 4-5 years of career and then decide on the specialisation? I personally prefer having experience with multiple domains during the initial phases but there are some obvious cons to this like slower growth (slower w.r.t promotion but not learning). I would like to know your opinion.
Start with depth early in your career. If you go deep enough in one domain, it becomes much easier to quickly pick up other domains (breadth) since you can lean on your expertise to understand how things work.
@@RahulPandeyrkp Thanks for the link Rahul. Yes, I agree that changing tech stacks frequently is not that beneficial and one should be able to pick up them wherever they go and apply the basic concepts. My question revolved more around the domain at a higher level. Let's say a person is a principal engineer in an ML infra org. Will he able to switch and perform at the same level in let's say AWS RDS org which fully revolves around databases and requires deep expertise in distributed systems?
Sorry, I don't mean to jibe at your content since it's actually good, detailed and articulate. But the entire concept of it makes me barf - "staying long enough, but not too long", "earning trust", "having impact because of that trust", "ROI as an employee" ... The whole thing is so dehumanizing. Software devs, as human beings who have a right to exist and to fund that existence shouldn't have to quantify who they are, turn it into different metrics and then optimize in return for a salary that can only range between $60,000 to $200,000 a year. The amount of time and effort it takes to be a "successful employee in the eyes of a hiring manager" is way too much. The same time could have been used to make side hustles, alternate streams of income and add value to the world around you in a way that makes you happy rather than ways that burn you out. This is the cost of "being successful employee", then I think it's wrong to work in the first place. Therefore, my approach to the whole job search thing would be this. 1. Apply, do the tests, etc. Takes about a week's work just to get the job. 2. Stay there for 2 years. If your salary didn't jump by 200%, leave. 3. While doing the job, invest invest and invest. Either your time or your money. Do not invest time in the same job unless it's commission based or has potential to give you a cut of the profits/equity.
Appreciate the comment. At many of the tier 1 tech cos, they do offer significant bonuses for high performance. Eg. If you're a senior engineer, getting the higher perf rating gets you 10k+ additional dollars. Hard for a side project to compete with that. Ideally you get a great job that you also enjoy!
@@RahulPandeyrkp Let's do the math shall we? Let's say, 8 hours is the standard work day. In the US, contractors are required to be paid 1.5x for every hour beyond 8 hours that day. So someone working 10 hours a day is working 25% more hours and making 30% more money. Someone working 12 hours a day is working 50% more and making 75% extra. So if your standard hourly rate is netting you $100k annually, someone working just 2 hours extra daily will be making $130k and 4 hours extra, will make $175k. And these numbers are BY LAW i.e this is the minimum they have to be paid. But salaried employees don't get paid overtime. So, you can see that dangling an extra 10k+ with the hopes of a promotion or a hike is just exploitation. They'd rather replace you with someone 1.1x as skilled as you for the same salary they are paying you now (maybe even less, since the tech stack you know is getting outdated).
Although I agree with the, this probably pretty toxic thinking from management. Not everyone should be promoted to a new job even if they’re doing well. This is exactly what causes endless mediocrity in a lot of roles. People keep getting promoted when they’re good at the job, until.. they’re no longer good at their job and now they’re stuck in a role. That’s why you get so many crappy managers!! Although I do think you should watch out for lazy developers who coast and only want to do the bare minimum. It might be worthwhile to think about if they’re just really good in the role and don’t want to move up. Who knows they could be the ideal candidate. Just something to think about.
Interesting video this has helped me understand quite a lot actually. I had backlogs during my engineering so it was hard to get a job but I got recruited at a start up that primarily worked on splunk. Fast forward 2.8 years I'm off that company and working at a decent company that outsources their employees to different clients as a contractor. What I learnt in my previous company admin and dev is the same work again. I don't feel challenged or I'm learning anything new as well. What should I do ? I wish to learn SOAR and AWS and I plan to do it personally in my free time but would learning those without practical usage in a company help to get into companies that utilize those technologies ? I don't want to quit this client without completing a year since I believe relationships matter a lot.
Hi Rahul, this insight which you have talked about was very helpful to me. I have one question which I want to get it clarified. is it okay to leave a job where you don't get promoted even though you worked hard to learn a skill required for a specific role?
I don’t know maybe currently I’m living in a country which is not English speaking so sometime I do have some language barrier and some cultural differences. Last two years I changed more than couple of companies maybe do I need to change the field ? I’m in tech industry for more than 10 years. I never find hard to get a new job in tech but I must improve this part to grow as a leader Can you give me some advice on it ?
@@RahulPandeyrkp well sometime I don’t speak the language fluently so I can’t mingle with or understand requirements well , maybe am I doing anything wrong ?
You job hopp for more pay & benefits . Why should anybody stay anywhere if they post your position open the next hour you die . You are thinking from employee perspective
Thanks a lot for this video. May I ask how 5 years at one company(faang) is regarded? Joined as a new grad, promoted once. I'm wondering if I should switch if I can't get promoted within a year.
@@RahulPandeyrkp it also matters how much money is being paid. if the market is offering a lot of money for switching jobs. and your boss only offers 3% raise without you ask. so you wait your time and then move on.
I am seeking some investment guidance. I am looking for a simple reproducible passive income strategy, have been working for people all my life and have been treated like trash. I've saved enough already and it's time I go into investment.
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You're trying to make sense out of nonsense. Some if not most hiring managers and recruiters are ridiculous. Without three years of experience you cannot get a job and without a entry level job willing to pay while you learn than you cannot get three years of experience. Three years working on your own projects doesn't count as work experience. Some entry level positions want 5 years of experience. Some job listings want three years of experience with technology that came out six months ago. Some don't like employment gaps for extreme specialty work. Some don't like to see job turnover in an industry that refuses to even give cost of living increases let alone give increases progressive enough to keep up with the acquisitions of expected skills. Job hopping is the only way to get a decent wage in the software industry. I have sat at a tables with managers complaining about not finding qualified candidates in a room full of capable programmers looking for work. I learned a long time ago that programmers should never try to second guess what recruiters and hiring managers think because in this industry they are ridiculous. You cannot apply sense to nonsense.
Please stop using acronym too much it becomes annoying 😒 your speech will not be understood when you use too much acronyms and using too many acronyms wont make anyone sound smarter or genus it only make that person sounds puffy and bragging
@@scottgreen3703 thanks for the feedback, which acronyms are you referring to?
@@RahulPandeyrkp sorry i get mad when i heard acronyms and just stopped the video and left, i don't have time for google hundreds of acronyms every month that i hear in many other youtubers i get tired of that bs and i just unsubscribe from any channel that use too much acronyms it became a trend but viewers get lost 😏
As an ex-Oracle employee, I 100% agree. I became a "lazy developer". Despite doing a lot of things, the pace of dev was so slow that I felt I did nothing. There was also a year when the entire team of 7 people fixed just 10 production issues.
Would I join Oracle again? Yep definitely. The colleagues that I worked with were out of the world. Oracle added a lot of weight to my resume eventually helping me to get into a better position. I won't be staying there for 5 years as I did previously.
Great perspective 👍🏽
Some people just want to coast, and it's totally fine. But if you get extremely bored at work/not learning anymore, then I would leave.
Promotions and leveling up usually involves company bureaucracy along with performance of the individual. Not everyone will get away lucky. But if you can back your work with data and proven skills, changing after a long time should not be a concern IMO.
Great video! Hiring manager at a tech startup and those are exactly the "stereotypes" when looking at different resumes!
I have 1.25 years experience. At the 2 year mark I plan to jump & upgrade.
'...long enough to see the damage you have done' rings true for me. I've learned so much just thinking about the code i wrote and maintained it. So many learnings and you ramp up exponentially.
Apparently the secret to jumping into mid-high management is to take credit and then promote out before you see the damage haha. Lots of stories from my grumpy senior engineers about people who did that...
Couldn't agree more on this part
This man is holy and must be protected at all cost.
Dang 🥺
Really nice video. I was having a conversation about that with my manager telling me that we would rather hire someone that may stick with our company for 5y (semiconductor industry) but is not a top performer than a genius job hopping.
Context and relationships matter a lot
I was planning on leaving my first non-intern position after a year, then the pandemic happened and i decided to stay here until it ended since i have good job security here and i prefer going into the office if i'm going to start working somewhere new. Turns out the pandemic hasn't ended and i'm at this place for 3 and a half years now lol, hope it isn't too long.
3-4 is a great time to switch into a new company. Especially since this is your first non-intern position. I would really emphasize everything you've learned over those 3+ years on your resume and in interviews. Good luck!
This is really great insight, Rahul. I own a tech recruitment business, and we often have to have this conversation with potential candidates (and HM's!); it's such an emotionally charged area for some reason.
Thanks Thomas, I've seen how engineers feel like they are "starting at negative" due to the assumptions others will make, but hopefully the explanation in this video can help them provide good explanations.
Another good explanation for a long stay is that you wanted stability while your children were growing.
I left my 3D job after 6months with 1 month notice period which i gave.
When i joined i got my offer letter after 1month.
Its been 1 week i left i haven't got my documents.
Idk wtf the HR is doing.
If you're gonna shove _'company policies'_ down I expect you to be professional enough to give the employee all the required documents
At 6:13, the example of Oracle that you gave surprised me because it was quite similar to my reason for leaving Oracle (although I left it after 1.5 years). I eventually joined Microsoft where I obviously got better work to do. Thanks for sharing such meaningful insights about these not so discussed topics.
Cool that it matches with your experience!
Hey Zetro, I have recently joined Oracle and I too feel that the pace of work here is too slow as compared to my previous org. Can I please connect with you once, as I too am thinking of moving out before I fall into the comfort zone. Can you please share any of your socials you feel comfortable connecting at, if at all?
If people need you and your skills, They won't care
Very good points. I actually clicked on this b/c I've been at Lyft for 4 years and wanted to know if that counts as too long. I think I'm ok :)
4 years is healthy!
This is excellent , thanks for sharing. Great insight, great information
You should make it clear you're talking about enterprise companies.. in startup land jumping between roles is much more normal. Staying in a role purely not to "be judged" is bullshit
Awesome content yet again Rahul. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Thanks Christine!
Hi Rahul, can you share your thoughts on how to deal with below average cost-of-living raises (or even no raises)? It seems that employers are surprised when engineers want to leave when the employees take home pay is effectively reduced at the end of each year when given low raises. Financially it seems to make sense to jump ship as soon as possible. This does put some control back in the employers hands (to offer competitive pay year over year).
I agree that it is beneficial to stay for at least a year. I just think much of the responsibility, however, is on the employer if they want to retain good engineers. Especially when their pay raises are not competitive. I think jumping ship for 10-20% raises each year or two should be done until a noticible limit has been reached on compensation. Then they should consider settling down for a bit.
Any thoughts on that as well in regards to the average company (not faang)?
Job hopping early in career usually does make sense, like you said. It depends on the company and how many growth opportunities are available to you. If you can get a promo, you should get a raise (much higher than inflation), so I'd optimize for a job where you can achieve that in a year.
The ideal strategy (if you're just maximizing compensation) is to work at a job until you get the promo, then interview around for roles at top companies at that level. You get the salary bump from the promo, and then another when you land the offer at the next company.
yea you meet people on discord/reddit who are "miserable" but they've also been at their place 7, 9 years etc. it's like, its your own damn fault for being miserable and not risking taking a new job, even if its same or less money, you'd be happier
Thanks ,
Rahul Pandey
Could you please make a video on "communicating and collaboration with team members", it's difficult for me to have like a general discussion whenever we plan to go out to eat something. (Like when I'm not doing office work)
Thanks for the idea
Hello Rahul, you're very articulate about the Software trek to someone who's not even in tech lol Keep up the great work!
I didn't know those levels. Thanks for sharing.
Insightful video, Rahul. Thank you for constantly providing value to us. Even though I'm not in the US and the industry culture around is vastly different from that of in the States, I still learn quite a lot from these videos.
glad to heat that!
Thanks Rahul, really good insights
Idk forming assumptions without speaking to a candidate may not be accurate. We’re trying to move towards being more open and accepting of individuals and their journey. If someone is able to do the job and happy to why not.Maybe interview them and ask them any concerns you might have before making your mind up. You could be wrong, and you are definitely shunning others because of your biases
No doubt they are stereotypes and don't apply to everyone. But when you are sifting through dozens to hundreds of resumes, you need to make a decision quickly about whether to interview them and job lengths do matter. Once someone makes it to the interview, as long as there is a reasonable explanation, it job lengths and history matters much less.
One of the issues is the American immigration system where thousands of employees are stuck with an archaic system. Even if you want to leave the company, there are instances where you are stuck working for your horrible team/manager due to visa issues and delays in your PERM/Green Card processes.
yep, I've heard this happen a lot
this is very helpful, thanks for making it!
Job hopping is such a big trend now that companies are just not gonna waste time hiring people who look like they're just looking for a bigger salary every few years
have to be careful to avoid that perception
whats wrong with switching every 1.5-2 years for a 50% raise instead of taking the 3% raise at your current company.
@@asadb1990 It may be good for the person doing it (in the short term), but it's annoying for the people who spent their valuable time interviewing you, training you, doing your early code reviews and basically hand holding you through your first year. Those people don't get paid extra for that, and they still have full time workloads that they are responsible for. They invest that time in new team mates with the expectation that it will be a mutually beneficial arrangement, because in the long run you will able to help them shoulder the team's workload. Quitting after a year and a half means you've personally gotten the benefit of training but not yet given back meaningful contributions.
Also, frankly the first year or so at new companies, learning new tech stacks and processes - it sucks. For exactly the reasons I just described. Any established, reasonably large organization is going to have a deep tech stack and quirky processes that slow you down as you learn them. I much prefer to be the person who knows all the answers than the person asking for help for things, or the person who is too afraid or proud to ask questions and just gets things wrong.
@@rdean150 dude what about the time candidates waste unpaid for doing interviews and then be ghosted? or when a company hires you and then you get laid off with no notice. its a business relationship that has been heavily favored for the employer but the current demand for workers has shifted the power dynamic. and most employees don't like to give employers bj like you. most employees want to do the bare min to keep job while employers want the most work for lowest pay. and after the first year most employers only offer 3% while market offers much more each year. by second year most employees fall way behind the market pay and its a huge hassle getting approved for more pay.
@@asadb1990 Yeah, all the things you described are terrible and make me angry as well. But that's why I didn't base my response on the position of the employer or even manager. I'm talking strictly from the perspective of a peer here. As a teammate and from the position of the person starting the new role.
But I totally feel your position. Deeply. I have lived it and experienced it so personally that it did a real number on my mental health and changed my overall attitude toward my career significantly. We are punished for loyalty. No question about it. After 5+ years in the same company, we are almost guaranteed to be behind the salary curve. I'm just giving reasons why leaving after less than 2 years is not great either.
How would you look at someone who stayed within a company for about 5 years, but switched teams internally every year and a half?
Just curious.
Internal team switches are not that visible on a resume or in an interview unless the candidate specifically goes into a lot of detail. It wouldn't trigger the "they are job hopping" reaction to me.
Not a red flag, but I would be clear about what you did in the company, and what you learned in each role
Well. I can tell you given corona i had to switch jobs twice and where i am now is fine but very very hierarchical and slow. So i am slowly but surley activley lookong for a new job and i know this is not ideal. But staying 3 years for the sake of it is not helping anyone
if you don't like the work, and you're not learning, much better just to leave
@@RahulPandeyrkp Always! The mental drain if you genuinely hate the job does more damage than the impact on a resume
Great video!
What you do think about burn out. And how long of a break do you think is ok?? Maybe working on a side project during the break?
So much more burnout due to the pandemic 😑
Great advice!
Thanks for the vid, really good to know about this view point starting out. I also wonder if these considerations go into who's called back and who's not🤔.
Lot's of good points, well made. But I don't think it applies to software engineers only.
you're probably right
Just love how you composed and clearly you explain everything 🙏❤️ Do you give one on one coaching?
thank you! That's why we created Taro: www.jointaro.com/membership/
Very insightful Pandeyji!
I work in supply chain and am about 3 months and 3 weeks in. I finish my MBA in December. Should I find a higher paying role even though by then, I'll only be at my current company for 8 months? The role doesn't pay great but could be much better.
One or two early career job hops doesn't have much of an impact on hiring (at not to me when hiring people). It is only an extended pattern of job hops that can be concerning. If you think you can use the MBA to find a better position, I'd definitely suggest making the jump as it will make a larger difference in the long run.
This employer/employee ROI conversation has been going on like this for over 30 years with no real solution implemented. Defining the problem from the perspective of a fallible human being is an exercise in futility, but worse then that second guessing what a brain farting hiring manager thinks causes great amounts of anxiety. Are you familiar with yin and yang. The solution is balance. Unfortunately, there can be no balance with dealing with a Borg collective. Resistance is futile. Prepare to be assimilated. Look at the ciaos that being out of balance creates. You cannot get a job without 5 years of experience, but you cannot get 5 years experience without a entry level job. Employers don't offer entry level jobs because the return on investment is not there if applicants job hop after a year. Of course, the Borg collective wants to maximize it returns all the time and to do that externalizes all the costs onto the job seeker.
"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile." This is the one sided perspective in a nut shell. 30 years from now we will still be having the same conversation because balance is never achieved.
These videos are rare and very helpful.
Glad to hear that!
I would like you to make one video on whether one should focus on breadth or depth during early periods of their software engineering career? On one hand we have core distributed system teams like Azure/AWS and on other hand we have other teams which are focused more towards business problems by using some of these services like ML infra teams, video/live events teams, data engineering etc... Is it advisable to have short stints (around 2-2.5 years) in atleast 2 of these domains during first 4-5 years of career and then decide on the specialisation?
I personally prefer having experience with multiple domains during the initial phases but there are some obvious cons to this like slower growth (slower w.r.t promotion but not learning). I would like to know your opinion.
Start with depth early in your career. If you go deep enough in one domain, it becomes much easier to quickly pick up other domains (breadth) since you can lean on your expertise to understand how things work.
we cover this here! app.jointaro.com/lesson/wUl3hc2wr1ms493bd23b
@@RahulPandeyrkp Thanks for the link Rahul. Yes, I agree that changing tech stacks frequently is not that beneficial and one should be able to pick up them wherever they go and apply the basic concepts.
My question revolved more around the domain at a higher level. Let's say a person is a principal engineer in an ML infra org. Will he able to switch and perform at the same level in let's say AWS RDS org which fully revolves around databases and requires deep expertise in distributed systems?
Sorry, I don't mean to jibe at your content since it's actually good, detailed and articulate. But the entire concept of it makes me barf - "staying long enough, but not too long", "earning trust", "having impact because of that trust", "ROI as an employee" ...
The whole thing is so dehumanizing.
Software devs, as human beings who have a right to exist and to fund that existence shouldn't have to quantify who they are, turn it into different metrics and then optimize in return for a salary that can only range between $60,000 to $200,000 a year.
The amount of time and effort it takes to be a "successful employee in the eyes of a hiring manager" is way too much.
The same time could have been used to make side hustles, alternate streams of income and add value to the world around you in a way that makes you happy rather than ways that burn you out.
This is the cost of "being successful employee", then I think it's wrong to work in the first place.
Therefore, my approach to the whole job search thing would be this.
1. Apply, do the tests, etc. Takes about a week's work just to get the job.
2. Stay there for 2 years. If your salary didn't jump by 200%, leave.
3. While doing the job, invest invest and invest. Either your time or your money. Do not invest time in the same job unless it's commission based or has potential to give you a cut of the profits/equity.
Appreciate the comment. At many of the tier 1 tech cos, they do offer significant bonuses for high performance. Eg. If you're a senior engineer, getting the higher perf rating gets you 10k+ additional dollars. Hard for a side project to compete with that. Ideally you get a great job that you also enjoy!
@@RahulPandeyrkp Let's do the math shall we? Let's say, 8 hours is the standard work day. In the US, contractors are required to be paid 1.5x for every hour beyond 8 hours that day.
So someone working 10 hours a day is working 25% more hours and making 30% more money.
Someone working 12 hours a day is working 50% more and making 75% extra.
So if your standard hourly rate is netting you $100k annually, someone working just 2 hours extra daily will be making $130k and 4 hours extra, will make $175k. And these numbers are BY LAW i.e this is the minimum they have to be paid.
But salaried employees don't get paid overtime. So, you can see that dangling an extra 10k+ with the hopes of a promotion or a hike is just exploitation. They'd rather replace you with someone 1.1x as skilled as you for the same salary they are paying you now (maybe even less, since the tech stack you know is getting outdated).
Although I agree with the, this probably pretty toxic thinking from management. Not everyone should be promoted to a new job even if they’re doing well.
This is exactly what causes endless mediocrity in a lot of roles. People keep getting promoted when they’re good at the job, until.. they’re no longer good at their job and now they’re stuck in a role. That’s why you get so many crappy managers!!
Although I do think you should watch out for lazy developers who coast and only want to do the bare minimum. It might be worthwhile to think about if they’re just really good in the role and don’t want to move up. Who knows they could be the ideal candidate.
Just something to think about.
Interesting video this has helped me understand quite a lot actually. I had backlogs during my engineering so it was hard to get a job but I got recruited at a start up that primarily worked on splunk. Fast forward 2.8 years I'm off that company and working at a decent company that outsources their employees to different clients as a contractor. What I learnt in my previous company admin and dev is the same work again. I don't feel challenged or I'm learning anything new as well. What should I do ? I wish to learn SOAR and AWS and I plan to do it personally in my free time but would learning those without practical usage in a company help to get into companies that utilize those technologies ? I don't want to quit this client without completing a year since I believe relationships matter a lot.
For contractual jobs each for year what to do resume will be look nasty but no choice
Hi Rahul, this insight which you have talked about was very helpful to me. I have one question which I want to get it clarified. is it okay to leave a job where you don't get promoted even though you worked hard to learn a skill required for a specific role?
absolutely. also I would not volunteer that you didn't get promoted
I like how you break things down. Do you teach Data Structures and Algorithms by any chance?
I haven't and my plans with Taro are focused on the non-coding side of software engineering
I don’t know maybe currently I’m living in a country which is not English speaking so sometime I do have some language barrier and some cultural differences. Last two years I changed more than couple of companies maybe do I need to change the field ? I’m in tech industry for more than 10 years.
I never find hard to get a new job in tech but I must improve this part to grow as a leader
Can you give me some advice on it ?
What's the connection between the country/English language, and changing jobs?
@@RahulPandeyrkp well sometime I don’t speak the language fluently so I can’t mingle with or understand requirements well , maybe am I doing anything wrong ?
With the exception of long tenure at big tech. I get endless head hunting calls despite my long tenure.
What about Business Analyst in a tech organization of a bank?
You job hopp for more pay & benefits . Why should anybody stay anywhere if they post your position open the next hour you die . You are thinking from employee perspective
I have been with GE aviation for 5 years, i wonder what should I do now ? I have become pretty comfortable here.
if you're too comfortable, that's usually a sign you should move (internally or externally)
When somebody offer you minimum 30% it's time to leave
Do you think this applies to tech sales as well?
for the most part, yes
This guy is probably an Amazonian
I haven't ever worked at Amazon
I have 8+ years at Oracle 😅
You're still there?!?
@@RahulPandeyrkp yep
😮
I leave every year. Oh wait
Is leaving every 2 years bad?
Thanks a lot for this video. May I ask how 5 years at one company(faang) is regarded? Joined as a new grad, promoted once. I'm wondering if I should switch if I can't get promoted within a year.
5 years is fine, but a lot will depend on how you describe your impact at the company and what you worked on
@@RahulPandeyrkp it also matters how much money is being paid. if the market is offering a lot of money for switching jobs. and your boss only offers 3% raise without you ask. so you wait your time and then move on.
Anyone notice he's in a new room
Lolzz astute observation ☺️
I am seeking some investment guidance. I am looking for a simple reproducible passive income strategy, have been working for people all my life and have been treated like trash. I've saved enough already and it's time I go into investment.
I don't believe in passive income ☺️
@@RahulPandeyrkp Care to elaborate?
What would you say it the optimal amount of time a software engineer should stay at a tech company?
Depends on the company, but at least a year for the first job, and longer for subsequent jobs
Your eyes are so white. How do you do that?
Very relatable ;) :D
I'm always trying to relate 🤗