oh my god shut up. in what world do you people live in where masculinity in women is encouraged? every single time a female character is depicted as powerlful in any way you get people in droves going "oh, it's so cool that she's powerful AND feminine!" why do women have to compensate for being powerful and capable by feminizing themselves? why would it be worse if she WAS a strong butch/gender non-conforming woman?
When a story about queer people is solely focused on them being queer it’s either stereotypical or real intense storylines. It’s nice to be able to relate to characters who get to just exist as regular humans and be happy.
Literally Q-force. I haven't seen the show but I've seen trailers and clips and wow. Just wow. The entire main premise of it is "oh haha queer agents they're queer" and it's just wrong tbh.
@@siorganism At first i was excited because we haven't had good SEA rep since Avatar (it was a good mix of all asian i think) and then the movie dropped and I-
Ah!! I love Carmen Sandiego and it’s very casual representation. But also, for what was said about how fans could interpret Crackle as one of Carmen’s love interests, it was actually confirmed by the creator that her good feelings toward him were only platonic. So, it has been hinted at her liking women, but it hasn’t been confirmed she likes men.
super interesting, that's good to know! personally I also like the idea of the big brother dynamic much more but I had seen a lot of ship art for them as well so it felt dismissive not to include it. after all the creator's word is certainly important but if the fans see something else, it can be their own form of representation I think? anyway I'm omw to watch even more Duane interviews 👁👁
The way I see it casual representation is more about the narrative importance of the subject, rather than whether the subject is made explicit. For example if le Chevre and el Topo has shared a quick kiss in the balloon scene I would still count their relationship as casual rep. It's not important to the plot, it's just something that happens.
yes. i think it's important that we remember how casual representation of normalized groups doesn't mean the same thing as it does for their marginalized counterparts. if a hetero couple were to mention in passing dialogue that they were dating, it wouldn't blip anyone's radar. but if it were a same-sex couple, suddenly that's not "casual", so we're still left with the plausible deniability of "they are just platonic friends". until marginalized groups are equally normalized, give me that explicitly stated canon. especially given popular media's history of queerbaiting and straightwashing, it still isn't okay to give us these scraps and set us up to be gaslight again when the executives change their mind about a charter being queer.
@@58209 100% agree, i think a good example of casual representation is the new movie Crush on hulu! you should check it out if you havent already :) ‘a character can be explicitly queer and it can still be casual representation’ is a thought i’ve seen circulating in the comments and i couldn’t agree more!!
@@ino4757 it's the one where carmen goes to Australia, with the rocket in the outback and the noise device thing?? I don't remember the name or number but ik it's kn season 2
OH MY GOD YOU PERFECTLY CAPTURED AND EXPLAINED HOW MEDIA SHOULD REPRESENT STUFF LIKE THIS!! "The Mitchell's Vs the Machines" also did this with the main protag and I was so happy that she wasn't overshadowed by the fact she was queer. I'm so happy someone else shares my thoughts and was able to publicize it. You've earned a sub, mate!
@@stargazer162 I think the mom made a ship joke on the video call when Katie was at college so the mom either jokes like that a lot or Katie is sapphic and the mom ships her with jade
@@aqui0 she also blushed when talking about jade i think so i am pretty sure they were supposed to be a thing (jade is also invited to thanks giving dinner and i know that could possibly be as friends but based of her moms joke and katies reaction to her teasing i am positive she is queer/sapphic)
i'm queer and i absolutely adore carmen sandiego, the implied queerness is amazing. but i think that a show can have casual LGBT+ representation while still making it much more explicit than what we saw in carmen sandiego. sure romance is not the focus, but i don't think i'm asking for too much when i say it would have been better representation if le chevre and el topo explicitly (but casually) referred to each others as boyfriend. (i would like to add, it's pretty fucking cool that the show doesn't reveal to us what Player's assigned name is, and no characters ever asks that. it's wonderful to normalize not knowing someone's birth name, since usually a big part of being trans is people feeling like they're entitled to that information)
I wouldnt see a reason why el topo and le chevre would be in a relationship but it kinda makes sense? I personally like their relationship as best buds but whatever rows your boat!
Honestly, yea. I hadn't heard abt this show before this video (it seems great btw, will probably check it out), but the representation shown honestly felt a bit lacking. Because, well, all the examples op brought up of queer representation were just subtext? And I'm of the opinion that any show that wants queer rep should make said rep clear. The only reason to not make it explicit is to placate homophobes, in which case you don't care community, you just our wallets. I mean, we had openly bi icon Captain Jack Harkness in 2005, why are we settling for a pair of boyfriends who (as far as I can see) don't even flirt? Like, the clip in this video could 100% be two good friends bickering. Let them casually call each other babe, flirt and hug. Because they're _dating._ I also feel like this video conflates casual representation and queer coding. Casual representation is when you have a queer character in a story that doesn't _revolve around_ that characters queerness. _But that doesn't mean said character can't be explicitly queer!_ If you can make the character cishet without rewriting large parts of your story, then congrats! You have casual representation! 🏆 Sorry for the rant, I have a lot of thoughts abt queer rep I needed to get off my chest. I have no beef with the actual show tho, the fact it even tried to include (actual, not disney) queer rep puts it leagues above 90% of the competition (which honestly makes me sad). The show also seems really interesting, I'm 100% here for strong women kicking butt :)
@@li_ka2 I 100% agree with you!! For me Carmen's Sandiego's queerness is less about groundbreaking representation and more about having themes and characters' personalities that resonate with queer people... Be it by multiple characters canonically choosing their own names, by showcasing friendships between guys and girls that don't suddenly become romances, by showing gender non conforming characters, by telling tales about finding your own family and community - to me that's the queerness I get from Carmen Sandiego. And it would be nicer to have explicit representation, but I would be lying if i said that what the show gave me didn't feel deeply queer and made me feel seen. If you do ever watch me, feel free to come back here and share your thoughts with me! I couldn't recommend it more.
yes!! That's exactly what i was thinking when I watched this show too. Even more recent shows like She-Ra does put emphasis on "girl power" (with the majority of the cast being female and the men being not as important -unless they are a villain- ). As much as I love seeing women shown as they are, being strong and powerful and skilled, it does grind my gears when it's always right on the nose. Some character making a sexist remark and the female character immediately fighting back, or people going "she's a woman and she can do that?!" It just feels unnatural and ultimately only reinforces the idea that a strong woman is a rare sight to behold. I love how Carmen Sandiego has overpowered male and female characters, or characters who are equally strong. Both Coach Brunt and Shadowsan are shown to be equally powerful, one in strength and the other in skill. The same applies for Carmen and any of her former teammates. Carmen is also not the "chosen one", the person destined to be a hero. She simply is because that's the path she chose. It was her decision to be a good influence on the world.
I agree with this. Even when i was a kid i enjoyed shows with a varied cast. I never liked all one gender focused series cause it gets a little preachy at times, and as you said it feels unnatural.
@@janelbbuck Counterpoint: it was a reboot of a cartoon from the 80's, that was a girl-marketed spin-off, so not really "girl power" so much as the mentality of girls buying dolls, not action figures.
@@cottoncandyhairamitystan8389 You know Amy, anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles, it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo
I love it toooo! In the interactive, there is a part where she’s wearing Carmen’s coat and pre tending to be her, because Carmen trusted her with the secret.And Carmen leaves the stolen stuff at her door with a bouquet of red roses
There's also the cute symbology behind her eye color (grey). It's like saying she has eyes for Gray or Julia Argent(argent meaning silver). I thought this was an adorable subtle thing. :3
@@elio6361 as a character designer who likes thinking of little easter eggs for my designs, I like seeing people “read too much” into things. Art can be pointlessly layered/overtly symbolic sometimes and I think it’s nice when people recognize that :)
Another show I really like is the Dragon Prince, it’s a very interesting plotline and concept, but the thing I like most is the representation. One of the main characters is an elf named Rayla, it’s been said that she’s extremely fast and strong but she’s not just there for girl power, not to mention there’s mute/ deaf representation with one of the coolest characters you’ll ever see, and a lesbian and gay couple.
there are a lot of queer couples in the crowds, no one bats an eye about same sex couples, there is actual ASL (and no one doubts their ability despite them being deaf), a lot of the men and women in the series don't necessarily follow genderroles (lot of female soldiers/strong/powerful women and plenty of men show emotions other than anger and very openly love people/have fears), there are quite a few poc in both plenty of background shots and main cast and at least one person is trans/agender/genderfluid. I love the series a lot and I was so excited by all the representation that I had to literally press pause several times because of the excitement
Love this kind of representation. I always hated how in those high school movies the sexuality basically defines the character as a person. It's always something like: Straight guy: "Hi my name is Zack, and I like to play football" Homosexual guy: "Hi my name is Nick AND I'M GAY"
@@legopussy2363 it isn’t a problem in itself because yeah, many gay guys do listen to lady gaga and beyoncé, but it’s a problem when a) every single gay guy likes them, usually to an obsessive amount b) it becomes their only personality trait c) their love for those artists is shown as intrinsically linked with their sexuality (and therefore saying that all gay guys like lady gaga/beyoncé) d) it’s used only for comic relief (i’m not saying you can’t have a gay character as comic relief, but when your only comic relief and only gay character are the same person, it has the potential of being a bit problematic), especially when the thing that everyone makes fun of is the character’s supposed “femininity” or “flamboyance” for liking those artists the most important thing to remember is that nothing exists in a vacuum, and while just casually making a gay male character like lady gaga may seem harmless, you need to look at the wider context
A beautiful and spread-out representation of queer people is also found in “legends of tomorrow”. It also follows the “show don’t tell” technique and there’s never any drama about anyone’s sexuality; it’s just accepted as much as hetero and there’s not even anything “special” about queer people. Basically just normal Very recommend that show!
I'd say Legends is more one that covers both angles on this topic. That being casual and shown representation, but that also is fine to do. And in fact can be better in cases of addressing the flaws of both methods. That being that shown representation can be very obvious sometimes or made the whole character or show, and casual representation can sometimes be easily dismissed as a method of progress depending. So having a combo that erases some of the flaws with both is a great idea which Legends does.
Good for representation, horrible at being a quality show. One of the more recent twists was that eobard thawne was alive again for like the fifth time and can stop time for the purpose of keeping Franz Ferdinand dead. This is a real thing in the show.
@@someplant5971 what exactly do you mean with quality? It might not have the best budget, but script/writing always wins above quality. When it comes to Thawne, I wonder if you’ve seen the flash. I mean, the flash has like 8 seasons and every season Thawne is the villain.
It’s like this in cartoons like the owl house as well, where it is explicitly stated by the writer that homophobia just isn’t a thing within the show’s magical dimension, and people just do as they do. queer and genderqueer characters alike just simply exist, the main character is in a wlw relationship while she herself is bi, the supporting characters have a straight and a wlnb couple too, sexualities and genders are never explicitly stated, they just are, and it’s so rare but so amazing to see. it’s not even that the villains aren’t discriminatory because as the writer said, homophobia doesn’t exist there (although it probably does in their human world, as that seem mostly unaltered).
i've never watched a cartoon that handles queer representation better than the owl house. it's so casual but also explicit, so in some instances there's no room for interpretation, which is really important. you can't say luz and amity are "just friends" because they very clearly start dating. obviously it never has to be a big plot point like in the owl house, but words like "boyfriend", "girlfriend", "partner", "ex", and other explicitly romantic words are really important to make queer relationships clearly canon instead of implied. tldr: i agree with you so much
i love the owl house but i find it weird how it got cancelled around the time where luz and amity's relationship got less friendly? more romantic-like? idk how to say it but its weird how thats when it took a huge break then got cancelled :/
@@glimmeriing disney like cancel shows it views as problematic after it gets 2 seasons cuz its harder to advertise it to other countries who want a shit ton of censorship. Thats why after the cancelation was confirmed the show creator Dana made it clear they were going to make the relationship more in your face and harder to censor. thats why the word girlfriend was said over 20 times in the very next episode of them getting together and they spent a shit ton of money animating the perfect first kiss in season 2b
@@Kris-wo4pj just so you know, in a post hoot a animator that specializes in making animation better in fight scenes etc said that it didn’t get more expensive to make the animation better.
@@glimmeriing as the people above have said, disney is a fan of cancelling shows when they step too far outside of its limits, and the limits are ‘what makes us the most money’. having strong and obvious queer representation such as Lumity, Willow’s parents, the casual use of gender neutral pronouns and the existence of Luz as an androgynous female figure made it impossible to air the show in countries like Russia and many countries in North Africa who are obsessive over censorship of LGBTQ+ rep. This subsequently started to lose the show money (even if it got tons of support from queer and ally fans alike) so Disney slammed the breaks. We’re lucky we even get Season 3.
I remember the og Carmen Sandiego when she was the villain. Those were good times hunting her down and I learned a lot about other cultures. Carmen Sandiego has always been one to teach young kids about the other cultures of the world and I'm thankful for that.
another trans character from shera is perfuma! who is a main character. also pretty much every single character in shera is part of the lgbtqia+ community in some way and it does representation so well!!
I remember hearing from people that perfuma was *supposedly* going to be trans but they couldn’t find a trans va for her in time. still, this could be wrong as I haven’t done actual research
There is some good evidence that Bow is trans, too. His voice is rather high pitched and cracks a lot in the beginning of the show. As the seasons pass, it becomes deeper and cracks less. I'm pretty sure Bow is older than Glimmer, and Glimmer has already passed puberty. Bow appears to be a fella whose transition started a couple months to a year before the show started.
Man this show really did not provide fans with a lot of shipping material though, none of the characters ever felt like they had romantic or sexual attraction to anyone the vast majority of the time. Which is fine, the show was definitely aimed at children with the edutainment angle. Also, what episode was "miss santa rosa" from? I binged the whole series like two days ago and don't remember that at all, did I skip one or something?
Miss Santa Rosa is from the interactive series called " to steal or not to steal" where the vile faculty force her to steal for them to get Zack and ivy back! Hope this helped 😊
It was never focused on romance, it did have it moments but they wanted to focus on the arc and its action. I mean its not really a romance type of show. It has some but not the main focus.
@@yousufguro8030 honestly for me this was super refreshing as when I watch a show I usually watch it for the plot and world (especially if that is the main focus of the show) and just randomly choosing to focus the show on romance (which a lot of shows do) is extremely annoying. This isn’t against people who like seeing romance but I personally dislike it (even more so when the show doesn’t need it)
I love how CS version of netflix is getting more and more recognition! Also, I could notice you put a pokemon platinum(if I'm not mistaken) soundtrack on the background. Than you for that, it took me back for a few seconds.
A show that does this wonderfully is The Owl House. It has the perfect balance of obvious casual representation and it not being the main focus of the show. The representation is always there, some episodes feature it heavily than others, and it is never mentioned as something unusual. The show introduced Disney’s first ever non-binary character, and there is TONS of other representation in there! (no spoilers tho... go watch it!! :D)
I wish the representation was a bit more obvious because I am a dumb child and didn’t realize it until I went on the internet and looked up videos on Carmen San Diego- I mean, of course I knew the goat and the mole were gay, that’s obvious to me. I didn’t realize Carmen was probably lgbt too. It’s okay though, I agree with what you said about representation not being in your face.
@@yousufguro8030 i think there's a time in some dialogue (pretty early on in the series) between el topo and one of the heads of VILE that implies that he and le chevre are in a relationship
@@yousufguro8030 Same, I wish either they showrunners had made a clearer choice to either stick to having them be platonic best friends (because as much as I love shipping, I feel like friendship can rarely just be platonic anymore in media) or, better yet, make the implicit explicit and have them say "boyfriend" at least once in the run of the show. It's not great if the audience can only be sure about this stuff hearing it from a showrunner outside of the actual viewing experience.
But it's still is kinda frustrating tho If they want those two to be gay then why did everytime thier relationship is mentioned they said "friends" I understand wanting to rep the relationship over them just being gay but the writers and creater could have just as easily said "boyfriend" in those places It would have actually been rep instead of easily erasable guess work
i do not really what a life you are living if your partner is not your best friend and if teh fact they are a friend is not staying at first place to be honest.
@@yousufguro8030 I feel a similar way about carman and crackle but I think these two are super cute And I'm just gonna say Carmen doesn't really get flowers for anyone else
When I first saw the show and Carmen mentioned that Gray was "Like a brother" I was like "NAaaa, you don't hug "Like a brother" like ThAt!" Then when I play the steal or not to steal I was like "Why does Carmen want to impress Julia?" Idk she's either full gay or bi, but when watching the show it did really matter and I didn't really care. I Just really liked the action and figuring out Carmen's back story (:
I didnt even thought of it. Also in my opinion, Carmen Sandiego is one of the best reboots. Not like the Thundercats reboot that seem more like a parody
@@yousufguro8030 when I watched the show, it never seemed like flirting, more like casual interactions. I think we just, as viewers, are expected to assume two grown people of opposite sexes are flirting when they are casually interacting in a comfortable way
It always weirded me out how ppl shipped Graham and Carmen…they met when Carmen was a young child, Graham being a bit older than her, and from what I saw their interactions were purely platonic and familial. Like u said, she sees him like a brother. I feel like ppl just read into their minimal interactions because it’s a man and a woman.
Hmm well i kinda disagree with Carmen being bisexual as "casual representation". I definitely see the possibility of Carmen's bisexuality. But i see this more as headcanon. I think confusing headcanon with actual representation can be bad. Because it gives creators a pat on a back for representation when it's really the fans of the show doing all the work. But yes it's subjective. The minimum threshold of textual evidence for a character to be considered canonically LGBT by one person is different from another. For example, I think El topo and le chevre are a canon couple, but Carmen's sexuality is open to interpretation, while another person may believe there's enough canon evidence to say Carmen is definitely bisexual.
In regards of headcanons, I think its more about fans giving minor self projection and less about giving the creators a pat on the back. For example, if someone headcanons Carmens as Aro they’re not giving any credit to the creator, the creator did not say whether she is in the aro/ace spectrum (not that i know of) its just some fans simply wanting her to be, hence “headcanon” The creator can confirm her to not be aro/ace, but that same fan would probably still headcanon her as one regardless of what the creator says
@@Freezient What i meant was headcanon is different from casual representation. Calling headcanon representation as the video did, is giving credit where it is not due.
@@phadenswandemil4345 Oh yeah I know what you mean, the problem is a lot of people wants to claim or insisted their headcanons are canons, even though they’re not. Often times I don’t even know if its serious or not
side note I did not pick up on her liking gray as anything more than a close friend, I really don’t know how people see them in a romantic relationship honestly
Is it me or Carmen, Shadowsan , Countess, Player, Zack & Ivy, etcetera. Are eye-catching? Because the art style and animation, make it look so iconic & smooth.
I think having it be casual works much better than making it a big thing. It makes them feel less like "token characters" and shows that being lgbtq+ is a completely normal thing. Also, I really liked your editing and especially your music choices : )
not to mention carmen sandiego is just an overall amazing show, from writing, to animation, to the soundtrack to the voice acting and even the details! this elevates the casual representation even more so by having natural dialogue, excellent designs, and realistic characters, no matter how unrealistic a global thievery consortium is!
I feel focused representation works if it gets in depth about the character's relashonship with what he is meant to represent. Like a Catholic dealing with the specifics of his religion, or a Chinese American dealing with the culture shock of living in Mainland China, or a queer person struggling with the exact definitions of what their sexuality means. But Depth and Focus are the key words here. If you go in with a shallow understanding/use a shallow interpretation, it's gonna be awful for everybody involved.
While I do appreciate that casual representation doesn't make a big deal out of it I feel like there's a certain degree of need for directly saying things at one point or another. Too many casual representation scenes are easily misconstruable as mere friendship or comradary and not in the dumb historical sense but in a real understandable way.
TOH is also really great at casuall representation. Raine in particular since although their enemies hatee them, they still use the right pronouns. Dana Terrace actually once said that Homophobia doesn't really exist in the boiling isles.
Raine Whispers from The Owl house (none-binary)...I love them so much! Also, Luz (main character) is Bi, and Willow (a side character) have 2 dads Lillith is also aro/ace, which is really cool (aro is canon, ace is heavily hinted at only)
Not only was this a super cool, informative, and well-researched video on a topic that deserves more attention, what I liked most about it was how incredibly concise it was! The amount of information you fit into less than 5 minutes was insane. I thoroughly enjoyed watching this :)
3:13 also, by showing not telling, the show is not forcing romance. something that most tv shows do and have always done. (i'm not talking about "forced" lgbtq representation, i'm talking about amatonormativity)
Yes I agree, casual representation is good but without stories about trans peoples experiences its simply going to be pushed to the background like always imo, there should be a balance
as a trans person. i dont i was preferred casual representation cuz i grew up in a time where they still went by the old censorship rules for lgbt characters ie they were always the villain, butt of the joke, turned "normal" or had were miserable for trying to be themselves usually dead or with AIDS but most of the time just wishing to be dead as their life is ruined around them and usually got sexually assaulted by an authority figure or just plain assaulted by random people who thought gay bashing mean beating someone nearly to death in the streets while others watched and did nothing to stop it. This was the 90s and early 2000s by the way when there was a dedicated "gay" channel on tv and Wanda Sykes was doing the "dont say gay" ads that went over as well as the "dont smoke" ads of the same era ie they wanted ya to do it was traumatizing and yes all of the YA gay books were the same way until the late 2000s early 2010s when i graduated from high school. the nicest rep i ever had was Degrassi and books in the adult section of the library that had rather heteronormative views or got kinda sexual assault-y everything else made me cry and/or hate myself. and yes i tried finding better stuff i checked out and read every lgbt fiction book out in my local library and any they could get from other libraries in their network and i watched the "gay" channel religiously it all was terrible for my mental health at the time. I'm now enjoying the casual representation cuz its so positive and doesnt make me feel like killing myself is the best option to being "not normal". i think cuz alot of creator are either older than me or grew up in the same time as me now they are just making shows they wish they could have seen as kids cuz shit turns the internalized bigotry and self hate up to max. and with how shitty the world is getting again i think this casual stuff will get past the crazies in power alot easier than being overt about it ever will. tho we might have to go back to subtext land which we are still in casual representation is just subtext land but confirming it and not queer baiting. which means dealing with even more people freaking out about making "everyone gay" cuz they cant understand subtext.
I loved this show SO MUCH when I watched it, I could honestly go on for hours about how much I love this show. The writing, characters, design, it’s great!!
I’ve been saying this for years, the path to normalizing the LGBTQ+ community is not making character for the sole reason of representation but rather make a character that just so happens to be Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans or Queer without it being a major focus point to the story, I’ve always had the mentality that people can do whatever they want with their lives, as long as ur a cool and down to earth person theres no reason for me to be bothered by u, thank god that people are starting to understand this thanks to shows, movies and videos like this, great video
Carmen Sandiego Is also an artistic masterpiece if you ask me. It’s simple yet so detailed and in depth. I’m so sad the show ended, but it is what it is.
i honestly love this cartoon. my little sister started watching this last summer and i was immediately intrigued by it. i ended up watching a couple episodes with her and i didn't even notice all of the representation. can't wait to watch it myself since it was super good and well done
I feel like we're just overthinking it. Never once did it feel like the show tried to pair anyone up with anyone. I'm also pretty sure Jules just looked up to and respected Carmen. This was a kid show where they really did not try to include any romance into it and now whe're just overthinking it.
I really like seeing examples of casual representation more and more. A definitely memorable and well-executed example for me would have to be the Gourmet Hound WEBTOON, by Leehama!
Loved your video! ❤️ Thank you for talking about one of my favorite shows ever, Carmen Sandiego. She-Ra and the Princesses of Power is also another favorite of mine. I still think these shows deserve more attention and praise.
4:37 Thank you, say it louder😭 I have nothing against labels bc ik many hold at least one in a special place in their heart- but the stress put on them, always needing a name and definition; it just makes things 10 times more difficult. Labels themselves aren’t bad, but the way the “concept of labels” is carried out by some ppl rubs me the wrong way as of late (hopefully this made sense).
Ah yes, finally some Carmen SanDiego discussion, i love and miss this show so much, this show is amazing and i hope more people can watch it and appreciate it's beauty!! 💕
It’s so validating hearing that El Topo and Le Chèvre are a confirmed couple, because I’ve been shipping them the entire show and when I saw at the end that they quit villainy to open a food truck together it made me so emotional.
I really like that its not in your face about the shows representation sometimes when they make a big deal abt how diverse the characters are it seem like the entirety of the show was abt showing the characters and not the story
This show is amazing! This is what we mean when we want more _good_ representation. The character dynamics are so good! Also, The Hollow does a good job of it too, while there's only one gay character (that we know of) it's still pretty good. They even say it in the show which was amazing. (season 2) Relationships aren't _really_ a big part of the show either. It was a bit more present than it is in CS, but it's not the main focus. Adam is one of the most "casual gay" characters in animation. I'm loving the more casual lgtbq plus rep in animation lately! :)
one thing I love about casual representation in fiction is unfortunately often when T.V shows include diverse characters it is often marketed as a very "revolutionary" and "special" show, and I feel like sometimes companies will use this to promote the show when in reality having a queer or Asian or trans or female lead shouldn't be overly praised. instead, it should be the norm and should of course be celebrated, but not considered a marketing tactic or unheard of thing. with casual representation it just sends a clear message to me; "you are accepted, you are normal". additionally, casual diversity is rarely used as a promotion method and it feels like the scriptwriters and producers really included diverse roles for the right reasons.
The Casual Representation feels more natural and lends some dimension to the characters, as opposed to more heavy handed attempts that tend to elicit eye rolls from the audience.
3:57 this is so important!! It sort of gives the impression that people who are trans are trans first, and people later. My life doesn't revolve around me being trans, its just an arbitrary fact about me like my hair color or my shoe size. Being trans isn't my identity. Society loves to sort people into boxes. I think this happens because its hard for us to conceptualize the vagueness or grey area of anything. But the reality is, our identities kind of are a grey area. No label can perfectly describe us, because humans are complex individuals. You cannot put anyones identity into a box. We have so many labels like gay or straight or demisexual, etc. But honestly I think it'd be better to avoid labels entirely because they can never fully describe us. Our identites are complex and we shouldn't treat them like they are simple enough to fit into a couple words.
I talked a bit on this. Think about it like a bunch of roads, each road being a part of someone's identity, such as gender, sexuality, racial background, social class, etc. As these roads exist, they cross and intersect. Everyone has a bunch of different roads, and to be categorized into one road is absurd.
Nah, having stories about queer experiences is very important too. What we want is both so queer fans get to have a diverse choice of options. For example, the movie hidden figures explores black experiences during America getting to the moon very well. But we also have stories where a characters race isn’t the main focus. More stuff like that for queer characters would be perfect! (More casual rep for black main characters would be nice too actually)
@@DogsandPennies yeah. I think the queer aspects can be the focus *if that's what the show is about*. But if the show has its own story, it's better to have casual representation.
I think casual representation is important. But there’s nothing wrong with having a story focused on on queer struggle. The problem with focused representation isn’t the focus itself but the lack of diversity in kinds of representation across shows.
@@DogsandPennies agree with you there. It’s all about finding that balance between stories that are all about a certain group and stories where they aren’t the main focus but their is still representation It’s important for us to see media that focuses on these groups and their struggles just as much as it is to see them casually represent in media where they aren’t the focus
Honestly I didn’t even see the representation, although I’m not exactly looking for it, but it is definitely cool to have something that doesn’t just shove it in your face
Hey if you wanna see casual trans representation, check out mha! One of the villains is trans, but I really thought they were just a muscly woman until a different villain stood up for them. Yeah, their a villain, but being trans very clearly has nothing to do with that. I believe there is other similar stuff with heroes, students, and civilians :)
@TwelviSC Also this isn’t really well-known but Mina Ashido is cupioromantic which means: “Cupioromantic describes a person who desires a romantic relationship but doesn't experience romantic attraction to others” Also a bit more well-known Himiko Toga is Bisexual. In season five episode 108, Toga outright says that she loves both Uraraka AND Deku. Also in her character profile it says: “SHE ALWAYS LOOKS LIKE SHE'S IN LOVE. SHE ADMIRES THE PERSON SHE LOVES AND FAVORS THEM TO THE POINT WHERE SHE WANTS TO BECOME THEM. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S A GUY OR GIRL?” I believe other than Tiger and Magne, those are the only other LGBTQ+ MHA characters.
I personally like a bit more, concreteness, to a characters self identification. If only just because I am dense, but there is also the second part to it which is people cant as easily deny its existence, which, I feel casual representation can have the opposite effect. To me it, feels kinda like hiding those character traits. Mostly the me being dense though, but like, their lgbtq+ identities are probably important to these people, so it would make sense if there was things like, a bi heart sticker on a computer for example, or a lesbian pride colours diamond necklace. or a wallpaper that is subtle-y trans flag coloured. Doesnt have to be a massive show, or be anything more than subtle background details, just, idk, confirmation in universe instead of later on twitter would be nice. Casual representation does normalization, but, can be easier to sweep under the rug by those that wish to erase it. A more concrete representation says "No. This is who they are, end of story." Maybe I just feel this way because in our world nobody needing to know isnt an option, if lgbtq people stay silent, we'll be "forgotten"
I dropped this show because the villains seemed too incompetent for me ,you cant show me that they trained years to be thieves just for them to be out smarted by kids with no training,but this video kinda makes me want to give it another try.
Hey. Show and tell. Still doesn't have to be a big deal. But with just casual representation people will always be like "whhaat, why does the lgbtq community always read their agenda into the narrative".
Bless you for giving me an example and language to use when discussing this with others! It's always peeved me a little bit that sexuality and gender in most shows have to be clarified, have to be called out, and have to be addressed on the regular, when in reality, this is not how the world works. Disclosure of this information most certainly can and does happen in society, but it is by no means necessary for every single aspect of someone's life. Thank you for bringing this concept to light and showcasing a phenomenal series that aligns with this message!!
Also, it might have a following from adults because they remember the Carmen Sandiego games. There were games to play on the PC at one point, at least don't know if they still sell them. But they started to sell games w/ her name back in the 1980s and the latest was like 2015. But yeah, that may be a reason for the adult following as well. Just hearing the name brings back nostalgia for me cause I have faint memories of playing one of the games, but I mainly remember reading the little booklet it came with as we lost the game at some point.
And this is why me and my mom loves Carmen Sandiego SO MUCH My mother is still opening her mind to the LGBT community, she 57, but she's also really respectful and curious and always ask me about it before taking conclusions. Watching characters being "explicit gay"(as we say) it's uncomfortable to her. When the gay is shoved in our face almost to a fetiche degree we both get the "that's not right" feeling. But in Carmen it's different. My mom even looked at me and asked "Do you think they are?" And I would say "Oh definitely". That's it. No long kiss scene needed, the relationship is there and we can perceive by ourselves!
Part of the problem with a lot of lesbian characters is many times It's directed more for guys to get off on. It feels like the audience is treating them like porn. Homosexuality is not just sex. But love and friendship. Real relationships. Just like straight couples.
I love seeing well-handled casual representation in shows, and I think that Carmen was actually one of the earlier shows to set the example. I love seeing it get attention for that.
![FOUND CARMEN SANDIEGO CONTENT [Read Description]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BNGC6P5GGEw/mqdefault.jpg)
love how they represent carmen without removing her femininity, very nice and no need to tell girls that they need to be masculine to be capable
@@Chaiirrlos yeah but a lot of attempts of making "strong" female characters end up just forcing masculine traits or ideals on them.
@@Chaiirrlos it's actually the opposite
This comment deserves more like because you hit it right on the nose, literally made me so happy someone pointed this out!!
oh my god shut up. in what world do you people live in where masculinity in women is encouraged? every single time a female character is depicted as powerlful in any way you get people in droves going "oh, it's so cool that she's powerful AND feminine!" why do women have to compensate for being powerful and capable by feminizing themselves? why would it be worse if she WAS a strong butch/gender non-conforming woman?
@@superparamagnetism galadriel in the rings of power
When a story about queer people is solely focused on them being queer it’s either stereotypical or real intense storylines. It’s nice to be able to relate to characters who get to just exist as regular humans and be happy.
Literally Q-force. I haven't seen the show but I've seen trailers and clips and wow. Just wow. The entire main premise of it is "oh haha queer agents they're queer" and it's just wrong tbh.
@@cheezaroo try seeing the actual show, i heard that the trailers and clips were out of context.
@@cheezaroo Show is actually pretty good
The trailer did it dirty
the only good show like that is Heartstopper
@@cheezaroo Q-Force is satirical comedy though? I get how it looks wrong but ig its not too bad if you arent taking it seriously
le chevre literally uses the same staff-fighting techniques as young raya from raya and the last dragon. this is mlm/wlw solidarity
Its called eskrima
I don’t feel like raya x whatever her name was is good rep, but that’s fine bc it isn’t canon anyway
We dont need to be reminded by the garbage heap that is Raya (imo at least)
We are not gonna talk about that garbage excuse of SEA rep(coming from a SE Asian)
@@siorganism At first i was excited because we haven't had good SEA rep since Avatar (it was a good mix of all asian i think) and then the movie dropped and I-
Ah!! I love Carmen Sandiego and it’s very casual representation.
But also, for what was said about how fans could interpret Crackle as one of Carmen’s love interests, it was actually confirmed by the creator that her good feelings toward him were only platonic.
So, it has been hinted at her liking women, but it hasn’t been confirmed she likes men.
super interesting, that's good to know!
personally I also like the idea of the big brother dynamic much more but I had seen a lot of ship art for them as well so it felt dismissive not to include it. after all the creator's word is certainly important but if the fans see something else, it can be their own form of representation I think?
anyway I'm omw to watch even more Duane interviews 👁👁
Also they are shown to have a very brother-sister bond
Carmen just radiates lesbian vibes.
@@cyb3rl0v333 true 😂
I just repeatedly slammed my table reading this without thinking.
Jesus, I'm way too invested in Red Crackle
The way I see it casual representation is more about the narrative importance of the subject, rather than whether the subject is made explicit. For example if le Chevre and el Topo has shared a quick kiss in the balloon scene I would still count their relationship as casual rep. It's not important to the plot, it's just something that happens.
yes. i think it's important that we remember how casual representation of normalized groups doesn't mean the same thing as it does for their marginalized counterparts.
if a hetero couple were to mention in passing dialogue that they were dating, it wouldn't blip anyone's radar. but if it were a same-sex couple, suddenly that's not "casual", so we're still left with the plausible deniability of "they are just platonic friends".
until marginalized groups are equally normalized, give me that explicitly stated canon. especially given popular media's history of queerbaiting and straightwashing, it still isn't okay to give us these scraps and set us up to be gaslight again when the executives change their mind about a charter being queer.
@@58209 100% agree, i think a good example of casual representation is the new movie Crush on hulu! you should check it out if you havent already :)
‘a character can be explicitly queer and it can still be casual representation’ is a thought i’ve seen circulating in the comments and i couldn’t agree more!!
@@58209 that was something like what I was gonna comment, casual representation should not be used as an excuse for queerbaiting.
I don’t know to me that would feel like over the top especially for a ‘kids’ show, even though it can be enjoyed by people older
@@jaydenjohnson1064 do you feel the same about straight kisses in kids shows?
"Have you seen my dear boy?"
"El topo?"
"Not *your* dear boy"
Why don’t people talk about this line more like seriously it’s just 👌👌👌👌👌
Bro I died at that
I was gonna bring this up! I love this ship cause honestly they’re wholesome
What episooodddeee
@@ino4757 it's the one where carmen goes to Australia, with the rocket in the outback and the noise device thing?? I don't remember the name or number but ik it's kn season 2
OH MY GOD YOU PERFECTLY CAPTURED AND EXPLAINED HOW MEDIA SHOULD REPRESENT STUFF LIKE THIS!! "The Mitchell's Vs the Machines" also did this with the main protag and I was so happy that she wasn't overshadowed by the fact she was queer. I'm so happy someone else shares my thoughts and was able to publicize it. You've earned a sub, mate!
For Mitchell’s vs the machines, I didn’t no think a fuckin second of what sexuality the characters were. And that’s how it should be
She is? That completely went over my head when I watched the movie
@@stargazer162 I think the mom made a ship joke on the video call when Katie was at college so the mom either jokes like that a lot or Katie is sapphic and the mom ships her with jade
@@stargazer162 She has a pride pin on her outfit as well, I think.
@@aqui0 she also blushed when talking about jade i think so i am pretty sure they were supposed to be a thing (jade is also invited to thanks giving dinner and i know that could possibly be as friends but based of her moms joke and katies reaction to her teasing i am positive she is queer/sapphic)
i'm queer and i absolutely adore carmen sandiego, the implied queerness is amazing. but i think that a show can have casual LGBT+ representation while still making it much more explicit than what we saw in carmen sandiego. sure romance is not the focus, but i don't think i'm asking for too much when i say it would have been better representation if le chevre and el topo explicitly (but casually) referred to each others as boyfriend.
(i would like to add, it's pretty fucking cool that the show doesn't reveal to us what Player's assigned name is, and no characters ever asks that. it's wonderful to normalize not knowing someone's birth name, since usually a big part of being trans is people feeling like they're entitled to that information)
I wouldnt see a reason why el topo and le chevre would be in a relationship but it kinda makes sense? I personally like their relationship as best buds but whatever rows your boat!
@@yousufguro8030 it does say in the video they were confirmed to be dating, though? or mby i misheard
@@boo7417 Yes, it's confirmed that they are a couple, to my knowing.
Honestly, yea. I hadn't heard abt this show before this video (it seems great btw, will probably check it out), but the representation shown honestly felt a bit lacking. Because, well, all the examples op brought up of queer representation were just subtext? And I'm of the opinion that any show that wants queer rep should make said rep clear. The only reason to not make it explicit is to placate homophobes, in which case you don't care community, you just our wallets. I mean, we had openly bi icon Captain Jack Harkness in 2005, why are we settling for a pair of boyfriends who (as far as I can see) don't even flirt? Like, the clip in this video could 100% be two good friends bickering. Let them casually call each other babe, flirt and hug. Because they're _dating._
I also feel like this video conflates casual representation and queer coding. Casual representation is when you have a queer character in a story that doesn't _revolve around_ that characters queerness. _But that doesn't mean said character can't be explicitly queer!_ If you can make the character cishet without rewriting large parts of your story, then congrats! You have casual representation! 🏆
Sorry for the rant, I have a lot of thoughts abt queer rep I needed to get off my chest. I have no beef with the actual show tho, the fact it even tried to include (actual, not disney) queer rep puts it leagues above 90% of the competition (which honestly makes me sad). The show also seems really interesting, I'm 100% here for strong women kicking butt :)
@@li_ka2 I 100% agree with you!! For me Carmen's Sandiego's queerness is less about groundbreaking representation and more about having themes and characters' personalities that resonate with queer people... Be it by multiple characters canonically choosing their own names, by showcasing friendships between guys and girls that don't suddenly become romances, by showing gender non conforming characters, by telling tales about finding your own family and community - to me that's the queerness I get from Carmen Sandiego. And it would be nicer to have explicit representation, but I would be lying if i said that what the show gave me didn't feel deeply queer and made me feel seen. If you do ever watch me, feel free to come back here and share your thoughts with me! I couldn't recommend it more.
yes!! That's exactly what i was thinking when I watched this show too. Even more recent shows like She-Ra does put emphasis on "girl power" (with the majority of the cast being female and the men being not as important -unless they are a villain- ). As much as I love seeing women shown as they are, being strong and powerful and skilled, it does grind my gears when it's always right on the nose.
Some character making a sexist remark and the female character immediately fighting back, or people going "she's a woman and she can do that?!" It just feels unnatural and ultimately only reinforces the idea that a strong woman is a rare sight to behold.
I love how Carmen Sandiego has overpowered male and female characters, or characters who are equally strong. Both Coach Brunt and Shadowsan are shown to be equally powerful, one in strength and the other in skill. The same applies for Carmen and any of her former teammates. Carmen is also not the "chosen one", the person destined to be a hero. She simply is because that's the path she chose. It was her decision to be a good influence on the world.
wow you put that so perfectly thank you so much! I'm a huge fan of shera but I agree it can feel a little odd at times with the girlboss messaging
I agree with this. Even when i was a kid i enjoyed shows with a varied cast. I never liked all one gender focused series cause it gets a little preachy at times, and as you said it feels unnatural.
@@janelbbuck
Counterpoint: it was a reboot of a cartoon from the 80's, that was a girl-marketed spin-off, so not really "girl power" so much as the mentality of girls buying dolls, not action figures.
This reminds me of a quote from a certain red echidna
@@cottoncandyhairamitystan8389 You know Amy, anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles, it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo
my favorite ship is Carmen x Jules
they are the CUTEST thing ever
Yeeeeeeaaa always ❤️💙
I don't ship them bc i want to be with either one of them and I cannot make myself feel like I'm trying to tear apart their relationship 💀
Same lmao
I love it toooo! In the interactive, there is a part where she’s wearing Carmen’s coat and pre tending to be her, because Carmen trusted her with the secret.And Carmen leaves the stolen stuff at her door with a bouquet of red roses
I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE-
YAY
There's also the cute symbology behind her eye color (grey). It's like saying she has eyes for Gray or Julia Argent(argent meaning silver). I thought this was an adorable subtle thing. :3
I never noticed that 😳
But that's so adorable for my younger self who shipped Gray and Carmen way too hard lol
I feel like you might be reading too much into this... But hey, that's how art works
@@elio6361 as a character designer who likes thinking of little easter eggs for my designs, I like seeing people “read too much” into things. Art can be pointlessly layered/overtly symbolic sometimes and I think it’s nice when people recognize that :)
Oh my god that's brilliant! xD
I never thought about it that way! I always interpreted it as a nod to Athena as she was referred to as the "Grey-eyed goddess".
Another show I really like is the Dragon Prince, it’s a very interesting plotline and concept, but the thing I like most is the representation. One of the main characters is an elf named Rayla, it’s been said that she’s extremely fast and strong but she’s not just there for girl power, not to mention there’s mute/ deaf representation with one of the coolest characters you’ll ever see, and a lesbian and gay couple.
We're getting a new season soon as well :D
yes! this is the show i was thinking of when i saw this video :D
@@Tagtot ive been waiting for too long the last season was last 2019
ruthari forever, jamaya forever, literally just amaya in general forever... yup
there are a lot of queer couples in the crowds, no one bats an eye about same sex couples, there is actual ASL (and no one doubts their ability despite them being deaf), a lot of the men and women in the series don't necessarily follow genderroles (lot of female soldiers/strong/powerful women and plenty of men show emotions other than anger and very openly love people/have fears), there are quite a few poc in both plenty of background shots and main cast and at least one person is trans/agender/genderfluid.
I love the series a lot and I was so excited by all the representation that I had to literally press pause several times because of the excitement
Love this kind of representation. I always hated how in those high school movies the sexuality basically defines the character as a person.
It's always something like:
Straight guy: "Hi my name is Zack, and I like to play football"
Homosexual guy: "Hi my name is Nick AND I'M GAY"
Don’t forget, a homosexual man in high school happens to like lady gaga or Beyoncé
Glee with gay men in a nutshell
@@becausewhynot212 That's why I don't like glee, almost all the lgbtq make being a part of lgbtq is their whole personality
@@L_k08 whats wrong with making a gay man like lady gaga or beyonce?
@@legopussy2363 it isn’t a problem in itself because yeah, many gay guys do listen to lady gaga and beyoncé, but it’s a problem when
a) every single gay guy likes them, usually to an obsessive amount
b) it becomes their only personality trait
c) their love for those artists is shown as intrinsically linked with their sexuality (and therefore saying that all gay guys like lady gaga/beyoncé)
d) it’s used only for comic relief (i’m not saying you can’t have a gay character as comic relief, but when your only comic relief and only gay character are the same person, it has the potential of being a bit problematic), especially when the thing that everyone makes fun of is the character’s supposed “femininity” or “flamboyance” for liking those artists
the most important thing to remember is that nothing exists in a vacuum, and while just casually making a gay male character like lady gaga may seem harmless, you need to look at the wider context
Player is also casually represented, he has a pride flag on his laptop in a school episode and it is never mentioned or spoken about
Wait really? Which episode?
@@tadbitsketch I think it’s in season four but I never noticed I’m gonna go check
That’s pretty cool
i went back and it was a star with a rainbow on it- idk if that counts as the pride flag but cool to know
@@aqui0 yeah that doesn't count lots of stickers are rainbow colored it's not gender specific
A beautiful and spread-out representation of queer people is also found in “legends of tomorrow”. It also follows the “show don’t tell” technique and there’s never any drama about anyone’s sexuality; it’s just accepted as much as hetero and there’s not even anything “special” about queer people. Basically just normal
Very recommend that show!
I'd say Legends is more one that covers both angles on this topic. That being casual and shown representation, but that also is fine to do. And in fact can be better in cases of addressing the flaws of both methods. That being that shown representation can be very obvious sometimes or made the whole character or show, and casual representation can sometimes be easily dismissed as a method of progress depending. So having a combo that erases some of the flaws with both is a great idea which Legends does.
Good for representation, horrible at being a quality show. One of the more recent twists was that eobard thawne was alive again for like the fifth time and can stop time for the purpose of keeping Franz Ferdinand dead. This is a real thing in the show.
@@someplant5971 what exactly do you mean with quality? It might not have the best budget, but script/writing always wins above quality.
When it comes to Thawne, I wonder if you’ve seen the flash. I mean, the flash has like 8 seasons and every season Thawne is the villain.
@@timefliesaway999 very true
@@someplant5971 the first few seasons were good but it just became shit after everyone starting leaving
It’s like this in cartoons like the owl house as well, where it is explicitly stated by the writer that homophobia just isn’t a thing within the show’s magical dimension, and people just do as they do. queer and genderqueer characters alike just simply exist, the main character is in a wlw relationship while she herself is bi, the supporting characters have a straight and a wlnb couple too, sexualities and genders are never explicitly stated, they just are, and it’s so rare but so amazing to see. it’s not even that the villains aren’t discriminatory because as the writer said, homophobia doesn’t exist there (although it probably does in their human world, as that seem mostly unaltered).
i've never watched a cartoon that handles queer representation better than the owl house. it's so casual but also explicit, so in some instances there's no room for interpretation, which is really important. you can't say luz and amity are "just friends" because they very clearly start dating. obviously it never has to be a big plot point like in the owl house, but words like "boyfriend", "girlfriend", "partner", "ex", and other explicitly romantic words are really important to make queer relationships clearly canon instead of implied.
tldr: i agree with you so much
i love the owl house but i find it weird how it got cancelled around the time where luz and amity's relationship got less friendly? more romantic-like? idk how to say it but its weird how thats when it took a huge break then got cancelled :/
@@glimmeriing disney like cancel shows it views as problematic after it gets 2 seasons cuz its harder to advertise it to other countries who want a shit ton of censorship. Thats why after the cancelation was confirmed the show creator Dana made it clear they were going to make the relationship more in your face and harder to censor. thats why the word girlfriend was said over 20 times in the very next episode of them getting together and they spent a shit ton of money animating the perfect first kiss in season 2b
@@Kris-wo4pj just so you know, in a post hoot a animator that specializes in making animation better in fight scenes etc said that it didn’t get more expensive to make the animation better.
@@glimmeriing as the people above have said, disney is a fan of cancelling shows when they step too far outside of its limits, and the limits are ‘what makes us the most money’. having strong and obvious queer representation such as Lumity, Willow’s parents, the casual use of gender neutral pronouns and the existence of Luz as an androgynous female figure made it impossible to air the show in countries like Russia and many countries in North Africa who are obsessive over censorship of LGBTQ+ rep. This subsequently started to lose the show money (even if it got tons of support from queer and ally fans alike) so Disney slammed the breaks. We’re lucky we even get Season 3.
I remember the og Carmen Sandiego when she was the villain. Those were good times hunting her down and I learned a lot about other cultures. Carmen Sandiego has always been one to teach young kids about the other cultures of the world and I'm thankful for that.
I grew up on the original version and will always have a soft spot for it
I was actually disappointed she was a good character in the show. I wanted her to still be a villain.
catchiest song ever created for a game. i miss old educational games they were so much fun and i wish i had my old cd roms of them to play.
another trans character from shera is perfuma! who is a main character. also pretty much every single character in shera is part of the lgbtqia+ community in some way and it does representation so well!!
Whaaat i didn't even realize she was trans!
Hold up what-
perfuma is trans???? didnt know that 😭😭
I remember hearing from people that perfuma was *supposedly* going to be trans but they couldn’t find a trans va for her in time. still, this could be wrong as I haven’t done actual research
There is some good evidence that Bow is trans, too. His voice is rather high pitched and cracks a lot in the beginning of the show. As the seasons pass, it becomes deeper and cracks less. I'm pretty sure Bow is older than Glimmer, and Glimmer has already passed puberty. Bow appears to be a fella whose transition started a couple months to a year before the show started.
Man this show really did not provide fans with a lot of shipping material though, none of the characters ever felt like they had romantic or sexual attraction to anyone the vast majority of the time. Which is fine, the show was definitely aimed at children with the edutainment angle. Also, what episode was "miss santa rosa" from? I binged the whole series like two days ago and don't remember that at all, did I skip one or something?
Miss Santa Rosa is from the interactive series called " to steal or not to steal" where the vile faculty force her to steal for them to get Zack and ivy back! Hope this helped 😊
It was never focused on romance, it did have it moments but they wanted to focus on the arc and its action. I mean its not really a romance type of show. It has some but not the main focus.
@@yousufguro8030 honestly for me this was super refreshing as when I watch a show I usually watch it for the plot and world (especially if that is the main focus of the show) and just randomly choosing to focus the show on romance (which a lot of shows do) is extremely annoying. This isn’t against people who like seeing romance but I personally dislike it (even more so when the show doesn’t need it)
I think it provides enough shipping material without making romance the main focus of the series, and I think that's nice
I’m pretty sure that was the “Choose your own Adventure”
I love how CS version of netflix is getting more and more recognition!
Also, I could notice you put a pokemon platinum(if I'm not mistaken) soundtrack on the background. Than you for that, it took me back for a few seconds.
agreed!! I really wish the show would catch on a lot more, its so wonderfully made!
and yesss!! pkm b&w are my favorite games so I gotta pay tribute 😌
A show that does this wonderfully is The Owl House. It has the perfect balance of obvious casual representation and it not being the main focus of the show. The representation is always there, some episodes feature it heavily than others, and it is never mentioned as something unusual. The show introduced Disney’s first ever non-binary character, and there is TONS of other representation in there! (no spoilers tho... go watch it!! :D)
I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS COMMENT :D
@@writer1395 yoo :D
THE ROMANCE IS SO CUTE AND AWKWARD AT THE SAME TIME LIKE HOW TEENAGE ROMANCE IS SUPPOSED TO BE AAAAAAAA I LOVE THE OWL HOUSE
@@wren_. TOH is AWESOME :DD
I wish the representation was a bit more obvious because I am a dumb child and didn’t realize it until I went on the internet and looked up videos on Carmen San Diego- I mean, of course I knew the goat and the mole were gay, that’s obvious to me. I didn’t realize Carmen was probably lgbt too. It’s okay though, I agree with what you said about representation not being in your face.
Ehh? I always saw el topo and lesherve as bff's people who are partners in crime, but i never saw them in a romantic relationship.
@@yousufguro8030 🤷♀️
@@yousufguro8030 i think there's a time in some dialogue (pretty early on in the series) between el topo and one of the heads of VILE that implies that he and le chevre are in a relationship
In fairness considering how low rep was back in the day mainly in WLW it wouldn't of been the first thought that came to mind when it was shown
@@yousufguro8030 Same, I wish either they showrunners had made a clearer choice to either stick to having them be platonic best friends (because as much as I love shipping, I feel like friendship can rarely just be platonic anymore in media) or, better yet, make the implicit explicit and have them say "boyfriend" at least once in the run of the show. It's not great if the audience can only be sure about this stuff hearing it from a showrunner outside of the actual viewing experience.
But it's still is kinda frustrating tho
If they want those two to be gay then why did everytime thier relationship is mentioned they said "friends"
I understand wanting to rep the relationship over them just being gay but the writers and creater could have just as easily said "boyfriend" in those places
It would have actually been rep instead of easily erasable guess work
i do not really what a life you are living if your partner is not your best friend and if teh fact they are a friend is not staying at first place to be honest.
@@deerinheadlights7179 ?
I think they were always suppose to be best buds, and i rlly like their relationship as best buds and making them in a relationship kinda iffs it.
@@yousufguro8030 I feel a similar way about carman and crackle but I think these two are super cute
And I'm just gonna say Carmen doesn't really get flowers for anyone else
@@yousufguro8030 but in the video it says that they have been confirmed to be canon
When a kids show does strong female characters better than most adult movies:
-Be gay do crime- wait no
*Be gay do foodtruck*
When I first saw the show and Carmen mentioned that Gray was "Like a brother" I was like "NAaaa, you don't hug "Like a brother" like ThAt!"
Then when I play the steal or not to steal I was like "Why does Carmen want to impress Julia?"
Idk she's either full gay or bi, but when watching the show it did really matter and I didn't really care. I Just really liked the action and figuring out Carmen's back story (:
Same goes for Julia
She has really nice chemistry with Carmen. She also sorta flirts with Deveneau In the later season
@@kellymacias7340 sorry DID I SKIP SOMETHING? FLIRT WITH DEVENOU? I BINGED THE THING I HOPE I DIDNT SKIP ANYTHING
I didnt even thought of it. Also in my opinion, Carmen Sandiego is one of the best reboots. Not like the Thundercats reboot that seem more like a parody
@@yousufguro8030 when I watched the show, it never seemed like flirting, more like casual interactions. I think we just, as viewers, are expected to assume two grown people of opposite sexes are flirting when they are casually interacting in a comfortable way
It always weirded me out how ppl shipped Graham and Carmen…they met when Carmen was a young child, Graham being a bit older than her, and from what I saw their interactions were purely platonic and familial. Like u said, she sees him like a brother. I feel like ppl just read into their minimal interactions because it’s a man and a woman.
4:38
Carmen Sandiego walked so Q-Force could trip
Hmm well i kinda disagree with Carmen being bisexual as "casual representation". I definitely see the possibility of Carmen's bisexuality. But i see this more as headcanon.
I think confusing headcanon with actual representation can be bad. Because it gives creators a pat on a back for representation when it's really the fans of the show doing all the work.
But yes it's subjective. The minimum threshold of textual evidence for a character to be considered canonically LGBT by one person is different from another. For example, I think El topo and le chevre are a canon couple, but Carmen's sexuality is open to interpretation, while another person may believe there's enough canon evidence to say Carmen is definitely bisexual.
Yeah... it's like how I headcanon her as Aromantic
In regards of headcanons, I think its more about fans giving minor self projection and less about giving the creators a pat on the back. For example, if someone headcanons Carmens as Aro they’re not giving any credit to the creator, the creator did not say whether she is in the aro/ace spectrum (not that i know of) its just some fans simply wanting her to be, hence “headcanon”
The creator can confirm her to not be aro/ace, but that same fan would probably still headcanon her as one regardless of what the creator says
@@Freezient What i meant was headcanon is different from casual representation. Calling headcanon representation as the video did, is giving credit where it is not due.
@@phadenswandemil4345 Oh yeah I know what you mean, the problem is a lot of people wants to claim or insisted their headcanons are canons, even though they’re not. Often times I don’t even know if its serious or not
side note I did not pick up on her liking gray as anything more than a close friend, I really don’t know how people see them in a romantic relationship honestly
I forgot this was educational because the storyline was brilliant.
Same-
Is it me or Carmen, Shadowsan , Countess, Player, Zack & Ivy, etcetera. Are eye-catching?
Because the art style and animation, make it look so iconic & smooth.
I think having it be casual works much better than making it a big thing. It makes them feel less like "token characters" and shows that being lgbtq+ is a completely normal thing.
Also, I really liked your editing and especially your music choices : )
not to mention carmen sandiego is just an overall amazing show, from writing, to animation, to the soundtrack to the voice acting and even the details! this elevates the casual representation even more so by having natural dialogue, excellent designs, and realistic characters, no matter how unrealistic a global thievery consortium is!
I feel focused representation works if it gets in depth about the character's relashonship with what he is meant to represent. Like a Catholic dealing with the specifics of his religion, or a Chinese American dealing with the culture shock of living in Mainland China, or a queer person struggling with the exact definitions of what their sexuality means. But Depth and Focus are the key words here. If you go in with a shallow understanding/use a shallow interpretation, it's gonna be awful for everybody involved.
While I do appreciate that casual representation doesn't make a big deal out of it I feel like there's a certain degree of need for directly saying things at one point or another. Too many casual representation scenes are easily misconstruable as mere friendship or comradary and not in the dumb historical sense but in a real understandable way.
I was going to say I struggle with that as well, but I watched Twilight without realising it was a romance so I'm probably not a good source-
TOH is also really great at casuall representation. Raine in particular since although their enemies hatee them, they still use the right pronouns. Dana Terrace actually once said that Homophobia doesn't really exist in the boiling isles.
Raine Whispers from The Owl house (none-binary)...I love them so much! Also, Luz (main character) is Bi, and Willow (a side character) have 2 dads Lillith is also aro/ace, which is really cool (aro is canon, ace is heavily hinted at only)
Walking labels...it hurts but it's the reality of most of the show 😢.
1:45
img: [ exists ]
my brain, instantly:
🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨
*Ļ͓͓̣̽͟A̳̳̹̟̋ͣ͌ͅ F̼̼͓̙ͤ̋̅̚͞͞E̢̢̻ͮͧͦ͋͞͡M͚͚̻͂̇͜͟͟M͚͚̻͂̇͜͟͟E̢̢̻ͮͧͦ͋͞͡ R̛̦̦̝̤͌̏͜͟͜Ơ̷̴̪̪̝͈̥͈̆̀̚U̝̝̝̲̦ͣ͋͛̊G̯̯̩̙͆ͣ͟E̢̢̻ͮͧͦ͋͞͡* ‼️
🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨
damnit it was literally gonna comment something like this only to find out i did it 8 months ago 😭🤣💀
yes
Not only was this a super cool, informative, and well-researched video on a topic that deserves more attention, what I liked most about it was how incredibly concise it was! The amount of information you fit into less than 5 minutes was insane. I thoroughly enjoyed watching this :)
casual representation implies the existence of ranked, competitive representation.
3:13 also, by showing not telling, the show is not forcing romance. something that most tv shows do and have always done. (i'm not talking about "forced" lgbtq representation, i'm talking about amatonormativity)
My only problem with casual representation is that often queerbaiting and casual representation mix together.
One of my favorite books are the Magnus Chase series by Rick Riordan, for exactly this reason. The casual representation is what we need.
I would love for trans representation where they explore their gender. Casual representation is good but I'd like more.
Yes I agree, casual representation is good but without stories about trans peoples experiences its simply going to be pushed to the background like always imo, there should be a balance
as a trans person. i dont i was preferred casual representation cuz i grew up in a time where they still went by the old censorship rules for lgbt characters ie they were always the villain, butt of the joke, turned "normal" or had were miserable for trying to be themselves usually dead or with AIDS but most of the time just wishing to be dead as their life is ruined around them and usually got sexually assaulted by an authority figure or just plain assaulted by random people who thought gay bashing mean beating someone nearly to death in the streets while others watched and did nothing to stop it. This was the 90s and early 2000s by the way when there was a dedicated "gay" channel on tv and Wanda Sykes was doing the "dont say gay" ads that went over as well as the "dont smoke" ads of the same era ie they wanted ya to do it was traumatizing and yes all of the YA gay books were the same way until the late 2000s early 2010s when i graduated from high school. the nicest rep i ever had was Degrassi and books in the adult section of the library that had rather heteronormative views or got kinda sexual assault-y everything else made me cry and/or hate myself. and yes i tried finding better stuff i checked out and read every lgbt fiction book out in my local library and any they could get from other libraries in their network and i watched the "gay" channel religiously it all was terrible for my mental health at the time. I'm now enjoying the casual representation cuz its so positive and doesnt make me feel like killing myself is the best option to being "not normal". i think cuz alot of creator are either older than me or grew up in the same time as me now they are just making shows they wish they could have seen as kids cuz shit turns the internalized bigotry and self hate up to max. and with how shitty the world is getting again i think this casual stuff will get past the crazies in power alot easier than being overt about it ever will. tho we might have to go back to subtext land which we are still in casual representation is just subtext land but confirming it and not queer baiting. which means dealing with even more people freaking out about making "everyone gay" cuz they cant understand subtext.
ᶠᵃ
ᵍᵍᵒᵗs
@@rightnostrilgaming4848 no shit
@@rightnostrilgaming4848 obsessed
it's honestly insane how underrated this show is it was SO good
I loved this show SO MUCH when I watched it, I could honestly go on for hours about how much I love this show. The writing, characters, design, it’s great!!
I’ve been saying this for years, the path to normalizing the LGBTQ+ community is not making character for the sole reason of representation but rather make a character that just so happens to be Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans or Queer without it being a major focus point to the story, I’ve always had the mentality that people can do whatever they want with their lives, as long as ur a cool and down to earth person theres no reason for me to be bothered by u, thank god that people are starting to understand this thanks to shows, movies and videos like this, great video
Carmen Sandiego Is also an artistic masterpiece if you ask me. It’s simple yet so detailed and in depth. I’m so sad the show ended, but it is what it is.
i honestly love this cartoon. my little sister started watching this last summer and i was immediately intrigued by it. i ended up watching a couple episodes with her and i didn't even notice all of the representation. can't wait to watch it myself since it was super good and well done
how tf did Carmen and Julia NOT end up together? 😭😭😭😭😭
Because romance isn't rlly carmen sandiego, yk wot I'm sayin?
I know, but they are both still young so they have plenty of time.
kids show
@@ColonelMonarch Being lgbt isn't isn't inappropriate for kids.
@@rosieg6989 yes it is
She-ra has to have given us some of the best representation of queer people we've had in queer shows
Loved the video essay, and I'm really glad people are talking about this because it's one of the reasons I like these shows so much! Subscribed :)
I feel like we're just overthinking it. Never once did it feel like the show tried to pair anyone up with anyone. I'm also pretty sure Jules just looked up to and respected Carmen. This was a kid show where they really did not try to include any romance into it and now whe're just overthinking it.
I love predicting relationships and seeing it as common place in media.
i love this series so much
I love your analysis and the way u finally were able to put to words what i was thinking of myself! Love ur channel, keep it up ☺️💕
we need casual representation in many other shows!! this is literally so much better!
I really like seeing examples of casual representation more and more. A definitely memorable and well-executed example for me would have to be the Gourmet Hound WEBTOON, by Leehama!
SUCH a good show! Really makes me wanna go back and rewatch it again!!!
Loved your video! ❤️
Thank you for talking about one of my favorite shows ever, Carmen Sandiego. She-Ra and the Princesses of Power is also another favorite of mine.
I still think these shows deserve more attention and praise.
Really clear and to the point. Great video, Well done!
Casual rep > focused rep imo
I don't usually watch commentary/analysis videos but this one was so well done and genuinely enjoyable 👏
I'm actually baffled that did not notice any of this because I fucking loved this show!
thats just how casual it is lol
@@limeyell0w945 causal representations at their finest
@@MegiMacaroni yup
Chevre once refered to Topo as his "dear boy", so it wasn't subtle, but I love they were confirmed as a couple.
4:37
Thank you, say it louder😭
I have nothing against labels bc ik many hold at least one in a special place in their heart- but the stress put on them, always needing a name and definition; it just makes things 10 times more difficult.
Labels themselves aren’t bad, but the way the “concept of labels” is carried out by some ppl rubs me the wrong way as of late (hopefully this made sense).
yessss carmen sandiego is the actual best show everrrr
Ah yes, finally some Carmen SanDiego discussion, i love and miss this show so much, this show is amazing and i hope more people can watch it and appreciate it's beauty!! 💕
1:21 „seminararbeit“ way to out yourself as a german 😭😭
It’s so validating hearing that El Topo and Le Chèvre are a confirmed couple, because I’ve been shipping them the entire show and when I saw at the end that they quit villainy to open a food truck together it made me so emotional.
ahhhhh! i love the animation style of this show its soooo cute!
I really like that its not in your face about the shows representation sometimes when they make a big deal abt how diverse the characters are it seem like the entirety of the show was abt showing the characters and not the story
This show is amazing! This is what we mean when we want more _good_ representation. The character dynamics are so good!
Also, The Hollow does a good job of it too, while there's only one gay character (that we know of) it's still pretty good. They even say it in the show which was amazing. (season 2) Relationships aren't _really_ a big part of the show either. It was a bit more present than it is in CS, but it's not the main focus. Adam is one of the most "casual gay" characters in animation. I'm loving the more casual lgtbq plus rep in animation lately! :)
one thing I love about casual representation in fiction is unfortunately often when T.V shows include diverse characters it is often marketed as a very "revolutionary" and "special" show, and I feel like sometimes companies will use this to promote the show when in reality having a queer or Asian or trans or female lead shouldn't be overly praised. instead, it should be the norm and should of course be celebrated, but not considered a marketing tactic or unheard of thing. with casual representation it just sends a clear message to me; "you are accepted, you are normal". additionally, casual diversity is rarely used as a promotion method and it feels like the scriptwriters and producers really included diverse roles for the right reasons.
The Casual Representation feels more natural and lends some dimension to the characters, as opposed to more heavy handed attempts that tend to elicit eye rolls from the audience.
As an OG Carmen Sandiego fan I love how they were able to redo this show from the original and make it SO MUCH BETTER and even more amazing somehow.
3:57 this is so important!! It sort of gives the impression that people who are trans are trans first, and people later. My life doesn't revolve around me being trans, its just an arbitrary fact about me like my hair color or my shoe size. Being trans isn't my identity. Society loves to sort people into boxes. I think this happens because its hard for us to conceptualize the vagueness or grey area of anything. But the reality is, our identities kind of are a grey area. No label can perfectly describe us, because humans are complex individuals. You cannot put anyones identity into a box. We have so many labels like gay or straight or demisexual, etc. But honestly I think it'd be better to avoid labels entirely because they can never fully describe us. Our identites are complex and we shouldn't treat them like they are simple enough to fit into a couple words.
I talked a bit on this. Think about it like a bunch of roads, each road being a part of someone's identity, such as gender, sexuality, racial background, social class, etc. As these roads exist, they cross and intersect. Everyone has a bunch of different roads, and to be categorized into one road is absurd.
casual representation is the ONLY acceptable representation I'm okay with...carmen sandiego is awesome, as is she-ra adaptation...
My thoughts exactly
Nah, having stories about queer experiences is very important too. What we want is both so queer fans get to have a diverse choice of options. For example, the movie hidden figures explores black experiences during America getting to the moon very well. But we also have stories where a characters race isn’t the main focus. More stuff like that for queer characters would be perfect! (More casual rep for black main characters would be nice too actually)
@@DogsandPennies yeah. I think the queer aspects can be the focus *if that's what the show is about*. But if the show has its own story, it's better to have casual representation.
I think casual representation is important. But there’s nothing wrong with having a story focused on on queer struggle. The problem with focused representation isn’t the focus itself but the lack of diversity in kinds of representation across shows.
@@DogsandPennies agree with you there. It’s all about finding that balance between stories that are all about a certain group and stories where they aren’t the main focus but their is still representation
It’s important for us to see media that focuses on these groups and their struggles just as much as it is to see them casually represent in media where they aren’t the focus
These are all my fav shows
Honestly I didn’t even see the representation, although I’m not exactly looking for it, but it is definitely cool to have something that doesn’t just shove it in your face
Hey if you wanna see casual trans representation, check out mha! One of the villains is trans, but I really thought they were just a muscly woman until a different villain stood up for them. Yeah, their a villain, but being trans very clearly has nothing to do with that. I believe there is other similar stuff with heroes, students, and civilians :)
@@TwelviSC wait, really??? That's awesome!
@TwelviSC
Also this isn’t really well-known but Mina Ashido is cupioromantic which means:
“Cupioromantic describes a person who desires a romantic relationship but doesn't experience romantic attraction to others”
Also a bit more well-known Himiko Toga is Bisexual. In season five episode 108, Toga outright says that she loves both Uraraka AND Deku. Also in her character profile it says:
“SHE ALWAYS LOOKS LIKE SHE'S IN LOVE.
SHE ADMIRES THE PERSON SHE LOVES AND
FAVORS THEM TO THE POINT WHERE SHE
WANTS TO BECOME THEM. IT DOESN'T MATTER
IF IT'S A GUY OR GIRL?”
I believe other than Tiger and Magne, those are the only other LGBTQ+ MHA characters.
@@playfulwriter9796 aren't Mina is in love with Kirishima?
@@emesea.2181 🤷♀️
Netflix literally produces more representation in its own movies than any of the shows and films it owns not made by them 💀
That was very well thought out. I really enjoyed your presentation and I LOVE Carmen SanDiego!! Such a good show that got cut short too soon!!
I love this commentary and video very much. Thank you! :D
I personally like a bit more, concreteness, to a characters self identification. If only just because I am dense, but there is also the second part to it which is people cant as easily deny its existence, which, I feel casual representation can have the opposite effect. To me it, feels kinda like hiding those character traits. Mostly the me being dense though, but like, their lgbtq+ identities are probably important to these people, so it would make sense if there was things like, a bi heart sticker on a computer for example, or a lesbian pride colours diamond necklace. or a wallpaper that is subtle-y trans flag coloured. Doesnt have to be a massive show, or be anything more than subtle background details, just, idk, confirmation in universe instead of later on twitter would be nice. Casual representation does normalization, but, can be easier to sweep under the rug by those that wish to erase it. A more concrete representation says "No. This is who they are, end of story."
Maybe I just feel this way because in our world nobody needing to know isnt an option, if lgbtq people stay silent, we'll be "forgotten"
Same. It kind of makes me sad when shows have to conceal it, like, you can just say?
@@osheridan exactly... we dont, live in a world where its treated as normal yet... so, giving the, lack of clarity allows others to take it away
I dropped this show because the villains seemed too incompetent for me ,you cant show me that they trained years to be thieves just for them to be out smarted by kids with no training,but this video kinda makes me want to give it another try.
So casual I didn't even realize until this video.
i love how much this show reminds me of wild kratts and she ra at the same time
4:03 Don't forget perfuma!
And Raine Whispers
They are from the owl house
Although Perfuma's designer has her being a trans woman in mind, it was never really confirmed that her being trans was actually canon.
Hey. Show and tell. Still doesn't have to be a big deal. But with just casual representation people will always be like "whhaat, why does the lgbtq community always read their agenda into the narrative".
I’ve watched both shows before watching this video. And I can confirm, AMAZING
Bless you for giving me an example and language to use when discussing this with others! It's always peeved me a little bit that sexuality and gender in most shows have to be clarified, have to be called out, and have to be addressed on the regular, when in reality, this is not how the world works. Disclosure of this information most certainly can and does happen in society, but it is by no means necessary for every single aspect of someone's life. Thank you for bringing this concept to light and showcasing a phenomenal series that aligns with this message!!
Also, it might have a following from adults because they remember the Carmen Sandiego games. There were games to play on the PC at one point, at least don't know if they still sell them. But they started to sell games w/ her name back in the 1980s and the latest was like 2015. But yeah, that may be a reason for the adult following as well. Just hearing the name brings back nostalgia for me cause I have faint memories of playing one of the games, but I mainly remember reading the little booklet it came with as we lost the game at some point.
And this is why me and my mom loves Carmen Sandiego SO MUCH
My mother is still opening her mind to the LGBT community, she 57, but she's also really respectful and curious and always ask me about it before taking conclusions.
Watching characters being "explicit gay"(as we say) it's uncomfortable to her. When the gay is shoved in our face almost to a fetiche degree we both get the "that's not right" feeling.
But in Carmen it's different. My mom even looked at me and asked "Do you think they are?" And I would say "Oh definitely". That's it. No long kiss scene needed, the relationship is there and we can perceive by ourselves!
I also love to watch shows with my mother too!! (she is 48). Same thing happened when we were watching Arcane :)
Part of the problem with a lot of lesbian characters is many times It's directed more for guys to get off on. It feels like the audience is treating them like porn. Homosexuality is not just sex. But love and friendship. Real relationships. Just like straight couples.
Anyway, subscribed, excellent stuff. Look forward to getting into the rest of your archive.
Carmen Sandiego is such a good show!! My siblings and I always watch it together
This show had no right to be as good as it was.
Which interview did you show in the video at 3:02 ? I have seen lots of the online interviews with duane, It would be nice to see more!!
I watched this last summer and LOVED it!!
I love seeing well-handled casual representation in shows, and I think that Carmen was actually one of the earlier shows to set the example. I love seeing it get attention for that.