The Academy Computers sticker on the back was my local Commodore authorized dealer and repair shop in Albuquerque, New Mexico. It was owned and operated by Danny and Betsy Byrne, who also wrote articles for the official Power/Play and Commodore Magazines.
Thanks so much Robin! I used Al Charpentier's own words from the March 1985 issue of IEEE Spectrum in the "Design case history: the Commodore 64" article. There's one detail I left out that's described in the article that explains there was a pre-charge circuit in the ROM that made it sensitive to spurious signals. I always struggle with the balance of providing too much or too little information. In this case, I should have probably included that detail.
Fantastic! Another great video. Thank you! My first C64 was an early 5-pin model since that was what the camera store happened to sell us in 1983. We did use a 1701 monitor eventually but we did use the rear jacks as there was/is a cable that supported it. I don't recall the COMPUTE! magazine issue that tells you how to make your own though. I call it a Pseudo separated cable. It does improve the video over composite very noticeably. IIRC it uses the monochrome pin for LUMA and the Composite pin for CHROMA. The 1701/1702 can happily support this non-standard signal.
I go back to see this video with great pleasure, in my opinion it is a real documentary on the history of the C64! Maybe I'll make such a video for your C64's brother too!
Really enjoyed this. Well explained and well done. I have a boxed Silver Label 64- serial number WGB 1617. If the theory is correct , then mine just jumped 1,000 build places.
Thanks for watching! There does appear to be a WGB 0623 registered at c64preservation.com/?pg=registry so the West German ones don't seem to have started at 1000
4:36 "DJ Tramiel told me everybody's high, poor Bob Yanes going out of his mind. Flash is fast, flash is cool, but a 4K EPROM is the golden rule" - Blondie (featuring Daft Punk).
Oh my heck, you have more 1541s than I imagined that you would! You oughtta set one of those extras up as the device 11 in that first stack that you showed us.
If you don't hear the difference between SID chips is because you are playing normal sounds. Fire up IMPOSSIBLE MISSION or GHOSTBUSTERS and you will hear a noticeable difference... There is a way, anyway, to disable the filter they added but just connecting a resistor between 2 SID pins.
@@commodorehistory The filter cutoff frequency curves are quite different too. So, in the end, digital sound code written for the 6581 is often almost inaudible on a 8580, and I met more modern demos, written for the new SID revision, with complete tunes filtered to silence by the 6581. I'm not into their religious war though ,as I can't say if any of the two is better. They're surely different. And the 8580 seems way more durable, I have much better success rate with the trash picked 8580s than with 6581s.
There is no difference in sound because the other Commodore 64 is the red LED version, and it has a long board and the old SID 6581. I have this version, so I can confirm it. However, there are differences in the image, which results from, among others, from another VIC-II chip (later revisions had 9 brightness levels) and the S-Video signal, if it was connected.
I remember that old white Styrofoam that came with my Vic-20 in 1981. It's not surprising that Commodore used the same packaging that was used for the Vic-20 till it was changed in later models. I've had the Vic-20 (Golden badge), C64 and Amiga 500 before moving over to the Linux world.
I never actually owned a silver label. But I worked on a number of them in my shop. But ironically, even though the C64c were still being made at the time my shop was open, I seen more C64c's come in than Breadbins.
Nice video! I thought I was a Commodore fan but looking at that collection and chicken lips tattoo you have me beat. =) When I upgraded to the C64C long ago, not long after it was released (I purchased it at Toys R Us), I noticed the sound was a bit different. I was playing Airborne Ranger a lot then and I noticed immediately that on the 64C the grenade throw was higher pitched. I got used to the new sound right away and think both SIDs sound great. I think they updated the SID to be a little less "noisy" maybe?
Nice work! I've never seen that cardboard C64 box with the PET dual drive before. I have my original C64 purchased in '83 (original owner) serial no. P00138518 ASSY 326298 REV A (C) 1982 that came in the corrugated cardboard box you show with the 1540 on it. Curiously my ASSY 326298 board is Rev. A whereas yours is Rev. B., but ostensibly manufactured earlier. Any idea what the date/timeline was for the ASSY 326298 change from REV A to REV B? It has been suggested that my machine with ASSY 326298 and rainbow badge may have been built from a returned/refurbished board. (We bought it for $595 in early '83. Its chips are dated mid to late '82.)
I was chatting with some friends about this. Based on a small sample size, we concluded that they shipped completed units first with rev B, then rev C, then went back to rev A boards. No idea on timeline.
@@commodorehistory Exactly what I wondered - if they went back to REV A; they seem, albeit anecdotally much more common too. But they were followed by much bigger fixes with the next ASSY #s. Tnx!
@@commodorehistory hi there are many theories about it, my c64 has the same dual floppy drive box, with S.N. 6473 motherboard 326298 rev.c I have another one that has a serial number 11953 and mounts the 326298 rev.A. Of all the revisions (a.b.c.) the rarest in my opinion is the rev.B. in Commodore they may have replaced rev.A with b or c, trying to get rid of the sparkle bug, but I'm not sure about that. Or more simply they could have sent the units as they happened to hand to the workers. This would also make sense, given that at the time they certainly did not think they would become collector's items and that we would question ourselves about these facts!
Thanks, a very nice video. The only omission I think worth noting (I have a 524,xxx of my late uncle) is those early power supplies are screw together, unpottend and thus reparable. One of those cost cutting measures CBM shouldn't have taken.
Exactly - I have one of those serviceable early PSUs. Still, decided to go with the modern Electroware C64 PSU that mimics its appearance nicely. th-cam.com/video/daE0QzkroB8/w-d-xo.html
so. the brown label one with gray keys without the rainbow. which is on the packaging and quite a few other things (older manuals, programmers reference guide)... was never produced :P
The C's SID sounds a little quieter, assuming that you didn't bump the monitor's volume at switchover. But I can't really tell a difference besides that. If you will run it again with a direct capture then maybe I'd be able to tell. Anyway, what difference there might be is really subtle to me at most, so that's good!
If they were fixing all these bugs then why didn't they fix the one that required them to make the 1541 so the computer could have a slower drive friend to play with?
@@CybAtSteam: It was a bug. The story is that the 64 needed its disk drive to be slowed down because of this bug that they never got around to fixing. They wouldn't design that into the computer.
@@HelloKittyFanMan Nope, not a bug. The VIC-2 needs extra cpu cycles during "bad lines" (every 8th raster line) to fetch sprite and character data for the next 8 scan lines. During those bad lines, it needs to halt the cpu (yes, the c64 had dma) for additional cycles. Because of that, the existing serial code from the Vic-20 had timing issues (since the Vic-20 didn't have sprites to deal with). This was solved by making the c64 serial timing slower than on previous hardware platforms. Again, not a bug, but very much by design.
@@CybAtSteam: Yes, a bug, because: 1. It's always been described as that by experts of the history, because... 2. it's something that Commodore could've fixed but pushed the computer out too soon for, and... 3. it's something that software-based fast loaders -- even those that don't blank the screen during loading -- DO temporarily fix, and... 4. is something that the hardware-based fast loader did fix permanently, and... 5. it indeed WAS _officially_ permanently fixed by Commodore in the next VIC-II-based computer that was released: the (non-B) 128.
@@HelloKittyFanMan Not a bug. There are several videos on TH-cam where Al Charpentier talks about the VIC-2 design and the timing issue specifically. He's the guy who designed the VIC-2. And i'm inclined to trust his account of why it is the way it is over some random guy on the internet that insists that something is a bug even though the actual designer states it was done by design.
"ASSY 326298"? OK, now in BASIC, delete the A, then move that first S to right after the Y and enter the whole thing into the computer to see what sort of "Easter egg" (or error message) might show up as a result!
@@enverhaase8562: Hello, I'm Mike. Let me introduce you to one of my little "friends." This one is known as _joking._ You might find it a tad useful -- and even, dare I say, fairly entertaining -- to get familiar with him! Chk-chk! 😉
@@enverhaase8562: Hello, I'm Mike. Let me introduce you to one of my little "friends." This one is known as _joking._ You may find him a tad useful -- and, dare I say, fairly entertaining at times -- to get familiar with! Chk-chk! 😉
@@enverhaase8562: Hello, I'm Mike. Let me introduce you to one of my little "friends." This one is known as _joking._ You may find him a tad useful -- and, dare I say, fairly entertaining at times -- to get familiar with! 😉 Which, BTW, might be the reason I said "OR error message"! 😉😉
The Academy Computers sticker on the back was my local Commodore authorized dealer and repair shop in Albuquerque, New Mexico. It was owned and operated by Danny and Betsy Byrne, who also wrote articles for the official Power/Play and Commodore Magazines.
What a small world! If you're still in touch, point them at this video. I'd love to know if they could tell us more about this computer.
Great work Dave; I haven't heard such a clear explanation of the cause of the sparkle bug before!
Thanks so much Robin! I used Al Charpentier's own words from the March 1985 issue of IEEE Spectrum in the "Design case history: the Commodore 64" article. There's one detail I left out that's described in the article that explains there was a pre-charge circuit in the ROM that made it sensitive to spurious signals. I always struggle with the balance of providing too much or too little information. In this case, I should have probably included that detail.
Fantastic video! That label and all those ceramic chip casings really give this machine a special sort of charm. And it works!
Thanks for your channel, I'm learning a 𝘭𝘰𝘵 of previously unknown CBM trivia from you🙂
Thank you for watching!
Fantastic! Another great video. Thank you!
My first C64 was an early 5-pin model since that was what the camera store happened to sell us in 1983. We did use a 1701 monitor eventually but we did use the rear jacks as there was/is a cable that supported it. I don't recall the COMPUTE! magazine issue that tells you how to make your own though. I call it a Pseudo separated cable. It does improve the video over composite very noticeably. IIRC it uses the monochrome pin for LUMA and the Composite pin for CHROMA. The 1701/1702 can happily support this non-standard signal.
So cool! I hadn’t heard of that before. I’ll look for it. Thanks!!
It's a shame Commodore never shipped the wireless disk drives they show on the box. 🤣
Hahaha, brilliant. Fits in with Commodore’s track record of failing to deliver promised improvements in their hardware…
I go back to see this video with great pleasure, in my opinion it is a real documentary on the history of the C64! Maybe I'll make such a video for your C64's brother too!
Really enjoyed this. Well explained and well done. I have a boxed Silver Label 64- serial number WGB 1617. If the theory is correct , then mine just jumped 1,000 build places.
Thanks for watching! There does appear to be a WGB 0623 registered at c64preservation.com/?pg=registry so the West German ones don't seem to have started at 1000
hi, is your C64 silver label European and does it have a plastic label? If I'm not mistaken, the American ones have a metal label instead.
Great Video, Dave! Really enjoyed it. I can't hear a difference either..:)
Great video and awesome history behind this machine!
I really appreciate the kind feedback. Thank you!
Cool video, thanks!
Glad you liked it! Looks like a bunch more comments you left that I’ll get to.
4:36 "DJ Tramiel told me everybody's high, poor Bob Yanes going out of his mind. Flash is fast, flash is cool, but a 4K EPROM is the golden rule" - Blondie (featuring Daft Punk).
Oh my heck, you have more 1541s than I imagined that you would! You oughtta set one of those extras up as the device 11 in that first stack that you showed us.
Everything in the room gets regularly rearranged, so sometimes I do have four drives stacked there.
Awesome video! Thank you!
If you don't hear the difference between SID chips is because you are playing normal sounds.
Fire up IMPOSSIBLE MISSION or GHOSTBUSTERS and you will hear a noticeable difference...
There is a way, anyway, to disable the filter they added but just connecting a resistor between 2 SID pins.
Good point on the differences when speech synthesis was involved. I probably never paid attention to that in the past.
@@commodorehistory The filter cutoff frequency curves are quite different too. So, in the end, digital sound code written for the 6581 is often almost inaudible on a 8580, and I met more modern demos, written for the new SID revision, with complete tunes filtered to silence by the 6581. I'm not into their religious war though ,as I can't say if any of the two is better. They're surely different. And the 8580 seems way more durable, I have much better success rate with the trash picked 8580s than with 6581s.
There is no difference in sound because the other Commodore 64 is the red LED version, and it has a long board and the old SID 6581. I have this version, so I can confirm it. However, there are differences in the image, which results from, among others, from another VIC-II chip (later revisions had 9 brightness levels) and the S-Video signal, if it was connected.
8580s on NTSC C64c’s are rarer in America than in Europe. Usually the keyboard will also change and have the PETSCII graphics printed on top
You can probably run it through audacity to visually see the differences.
I remember that old white Styrofoam that came with my Vic-20 in 1981. It's not surprising that Commodore used the same packaging that was used for the Vic-20 till it was changed in later models. I've had the Vic-20 (Golden badge), C64 and Amiga 500 before moving over to the Linux world.
Similarly, I went from Commodore to Unix servers once I began my professional career.
I never actually owned a silver label. But I worked on a number of them in my shop. But ironically, even though the C64c were still being made at the time my shop was open, I seen more C64c's come in than Breadbins.
Nice video! I thought I was a Commodore fan but looking at that collection and chicken lips tattoo you have me beat. =)
When I upgraded to the C64C long ago, not long after it was released (I purchased it at Toys R Us), I noticed the sound was a bit different.
I was playing Airborne Ranger a lot then and I noticed immediately that on the 64C the grenade throw was higher pitched.
I got used to the new sound right away and think both SIDs sound great.
I think they updated the SID to be a little less "noisy" maybe?
These early c64s still have a luma pin on the video out. Commodore originally expected users to use composite for the chroma signal on the 1701/1702
Very nice presentation. The 8580 SID is a much smoother sound while the early 6581before rev3 is very crisp.
Nice work! I've never seen that cardboard C64 box with the PET dual drive before.
I have my original C64 purchased in '83 (original owner) serial no. P00138518 ASSY 326298 REV A (C) 1982 that came in the corrugated cardboard box you show with the 1540 on it.
Curiously my ASSY 326298 board is Rev. A whereas yours is Rev. B., but ostensibly manufactured earlier.
Any idea what the date/timeline was for the ASSY 326298 change from REV A to REV B?
It has been suggested that my machine with ASSY 326298 and rainbow badge may have been built from a returned/refurbished board. (We bought it for $595 in early '83. Its chips are dated mid to late '82.)
I was chatting with some friends about this. Based on a small sample size, we concluded that they shipped completed units first with rev B, then rev C, then went back to rev A boards. No idea on timeline.
@@commodorehistory Exactly what I wondered - if they went back to REV A; they seem, albeit anecdotally much more common too. But they were followed by much bigger fixes with the next ASSY #s.
Tnx!
@@commodorehistory hi there are many theories about it, my c64 has the same dual floppy drive box, with S.N. 6473 motherboard 326298 rev.c
I have another one that has a serial number 11953 and mounts the 326298 rev.A. Of all the revisions (a.b.c.) the rarest in my opinion is the rev.B.
in Commodore they may have replaced rev.A with b or c, trying to get rid of the sparkle bug, but I'm not sure about that. Or more simply they could have sent the units as they happened to hand to the workers. This would also make sense, given that at the time they certainly did not think they would become collector's items and that we would question ourselves about these facts!
Thanks, a very nice video. The only omission I think worth noting (I have a 524,xxx of my late uncle) is those early power supplies are screw together, unpottend and thus reparable. One of those cost cutting measures CBM shouldn't have taken.
Dang! I recorded that and left it out. Oh well… thanks for watching!
Exactly - I have one of those serviceable early PSUs. Still, decided to go with the modern
Electroware C64 PSU that mimics its appearance nicely.
th-cam.com/video/daE0QzkroB8/w-d-xo.html
so. the brown label one with gray keys without the rainbow. which is on the packaging and quite a few other things (older manuals, programmers reference guide)... was never produced :P
The C's SID sounds a little quieter, assuming that you didn't bump the monitor's volume at switchover. But I can't really tell a difference besides that. If you will run it again with a direct capture then maybe I'd be able to tell. Anyway, what difference there might be is really subtle to me at most, so that's good!
6:15: FFR, ya already said the year near the start of that, so at 2nd reference the year would not be needed.
bellissimo! ne ho uno anche io, ma la scatola ha stampato sopra un floppy disk doppio!
quello che hai tu è uno dei primi, come questo
I LOVE C64
Very nice
You can tell even from your video the difference the original was crisp &sharper the c version is less harsh.
SWEET!!!!
Why didn't you do direct captures?
That probably would have been better for the comparison I was doing. Oh well.
Yeah, @@commodorehistory. And what is your answer to my question?
_"Exterior_ case"?
What: there's a case on the inside, too, or...?
"Brown keys and orange... keys"?
So brown... _regular_ keys?
If they were fixing all these bugs then why didn't they fix the one that required them to make the 1541 so the computer could have a slower drive friend to play with?
That wasn't a bug, that was by design
@@CybAtSteam: It was a bug. The story is that the 64 needed its disk drive to be slowed down because of this bug that they never got around to fixing. They wouldn't design that into the computer.
@@HelloKittyFanMan Nope, not a bug. The VIC-2 needs extra cpu cycles during "bad lines" (every 8th raster line) to fetch sprite and character data for the next 8 scan lines. During those bad lines, it needs to halt the cpu (yes, the c64 had dma) for additional cycles.
Because of that, the existing serial code from the Vic-20 had timing issues (since the Vic-20 didn't have sprites to deal with). This was solved by making the c64 serial timing slower than on previous hardware platforms. Again, not a bug, but very much by design.
@@CybAtSteam: Yes, a bug, because:
1. It's always been described as that by experts of the history, because...
2. it's something that Commodore could've fixed but pushed the computer out too soon for, and...
3. it's something that software-based fast loaders -- even those that don't blank the screen during loading -- DO temporarily fix, and...
4. is something that the hardware-based fast loader did fix permanently, and...
5. it indeed WAS _officially_ permanently fixed by Commodore in the next VIC-II-based computer that was released: the (non-B) 128.
@@HelloKittyFanMan Not a bug. There are several videos on TH-cam where Al Charpentier talks about the VIC-2 design and the timing issue specifically. He's the guy who designed the VIC-2.
And i'm inclined to trust his account of why it is the way it is over some random guy on the internet that insists that something is a bug even though the actual designer states it was done by design.
👍
I had the complete package
Computer. Monitor. Printer. All the toys
The good old days :)
The CIAs have a time-of-day clock? Since when were TI$ and TI "time-of-day clocks"?
Read the MOS6526 data sheet. On the very first page they refer to it as a time of day clock.
Hi had a silver label C64, it had my name and my UK postal code engraved on the case, if anyone out there has it, get in touch..:D
Good luck on your search :)
"ASSY 326298"? OK, now in BASIC, delete the A, then move that first S to right after the Y and enter the whole thing into the computer to see what sort of "Easter egg" (or error message) might show up as a result!
That number is higher than the highest memory address a 16-bit bus can reach.
@@enverhaase8562: Hello, I'm Mike. Let me introduce you to one of my little "friends." This one is known as _joking._ You might find it a tad useful -- and even, dare I say, fairly entertaining -- to get familiar with him! Chk-chk! 😉
@@enverhaase8562: Hello, I'm Mike. Let me introduce you to one of my little "friends." This one is known as _joking._ You may find him a tad useful -- and, dare I say, fairly entertaining at times -- to get familiar with! Chk-chk! 😉
@@enverhaase8562: Hello, I'm Mike. Let me introduce you to one of my little "friends." This one is known as _joking._ You may find him a tad useful -- and, dare I say, fairly entertaining at times -- to get familiar with! 😉 Which, BTW, might be the reason I said "OR error message"! 😉😉