You can still maintain continuation in singing sahityam and emphasize where every phrase starts which is what you did sir. You actually did not break the language there… as far as Telugu is concerned and whatever Thyagaraja wrote I agree that it’s beyond words and music that’s why they are Vaggeyakaras and these compositions have stood the test of time… especially Thyagaraja. You are blessed to have immense continuity in your voice and breath control that the point you are making is actually not conveyed because of how well you sang it… I’m not any die hard fan but a total unbiased rasika and actually not your fan so unbiased opinion…
I'm a Kathak dancer and been learning it since my early to mid-twenties. Still am with much focus. It was initiated in my life by a friend and I never looked back. I am of Tamil tongue born and brought up outside TN, by the way. From what little I understand, both musicians and listeners always treat Carnatic music as 'sahitya music' and Hindustani as 'raaga music'. Now, after listening to him say these things, I am looking back and contemplating what disinterested me in learning carnatic music as a child. I have a fairly good voice. Was it its emphasis on sahitya (rather than raaga) even as not teaching the child (me as a child) the meaning of the words? I don't know. I have just started thinking on those terms. Too early to conclude anything now. ❤🎉
He was in bhakti when he sung this, he was dissecting like you, pay attention to lyrics. Bhakti is the base. Raga is science. Catch emotions. It's not Raga, Raga is there but it's Bhakti Music at its core, deny it all you want
But tyagaraja didn't notate the kritis right ? He went on singing and his disciples notated it if I'm not wrong coz it's manasa niketana and not maana saniketana and tyagaraja sang it with devotion he might be a great musician but he did it with devotion so the lyrics are important. I might be wrong also but yeah this is just a perspective
Music all over the world is primarily a combination of notes and rhythmic patterns . Words are superimposed in it secondarily. In Hindustani music the Raga is the main focus and words do not bear much significance. The bandishes are very short and this allows the artiste innovate almost from the start without being bound by the word. Therefore this is best suited to nirguna ( attribute less ) form of Bhakti. Carnatic style is different. Krithis are long and words play a far more important role because the Bhakti here is Saguna and words are needed to describe the attributes. Yes Carnatic singers do tend to not pay attention to synchronizing word phrasing with note phrasing. But this does not mean words and Bhakti have to take a back seat in this form of music because that destroys the very form of Carnatic music.Understand and respect each form in its totality. No need to make issues of non issues .
TM Krishna will be singing a RTP "General Dyer Mahaan, Sikh log They bewakoof" and presenting it at Jallian Walla Bhagh and at the Amritsar Golden temple. Go TMK!!
Bhaavam is also in the rhythm, rhythmic patterns, and raaga - not just in the sahityam. We can see how Pt. Birju Maharaj ji tells stories and scenarios to the audience using sheer foorwork and tihaais. You see, in hindustani, we go like okay jhaptaal is playful, dhamaar taal is of grave and intense nature etc. Not sure if it applies to Carnatic music too. But then, taals are taals. Rhythms are rhythms no matter what. So, as a Hindustani dancer, I'm speculating that it can apply to carnatic music also.
At last an intelligent observer👌music is an aural art form , everything is in the sound including the sound of the syllables of sahitya...the composers composed the sahitya FOR the music
No, it does not collapse. He himself splits at @2:36 correctly as per the Sahitya and maintains the integrity of the raga. He confuses two different aspects in this video - splitting the sahitya for breath and emphasis on swaras that highlight the raga. You can split the sahitya at the right places without compromising on the beauty of the raga.
Song has meaning but you don't know language that's your problem. Tyagaraja with full of love and compassion towards Lord rama he wrote those kritis and tuned it.
@@tejasnair3399 wonder why everyone gets so abusive and spew all the accumulated hatred online even without understanding what is said. You may pls read my comment again before vomiting gibberish and exposing yourself. And where did MS, or Brinda Amma come into picture at all!! I'm seriously hoping this reply was posted to a wrong comment.
Interesting observation. But we don't know how Tyagaraja sang this, while it is very clear that singers/gurus over the generations have intentionally or otherwise changed the way it is sung (just look at the differences in many pathantarams). Anyway, I don't perceive any "loss" of Arabhi here: th-cam.com/video/I4br30FP1Ao/w-d-xo.html
I don't think TMK himself has realized that he hasn't really spilt the words up the wrong way. He has merely emphasizes various syllables of a word in accordance with the swara-patterning. TMK is so filled with the obsessions to disapprove of people's desire to place sahitya over swara, he fails to see what he is himself doing. This preoccupation with rhythmic patterns is not a brain-child of TMK. It can be observed clearly in the chandas (metre) of Sanskrit slokas. TMK comes across as an individual, who cannot seem to agree with anything or anyone. He seems to be mounting argument merely for the sake of arguing, neither making real sense nor being able to reasonably prove his stance. He reasons that one must not define music based on ones own personal values. He seems to be doing the same in stating music is divorced from bhakti and the likes. I recommend he merely sing and keep his interpretations to himself!
I recommend that he stops singing. Simple, integrity issues. If he does not value lyrics or devotion, let him NOT touch the compositions which are essentially bhakthi-laden. Let him create his own songs n render. More importantly let him use 'accessible' language , something like Chennai Tamizh and create songs for his rendition. He should also stop using Brahmin accompanying artistes and 'brahminical ' accompaniments - should start using thaarai/thappattai/udukku etc and devote his life to promote music which has been 'denied' to various groups. He should drop the elite sounding Sanskrit name Krishna and use the local slang equivalent ...may be something like kisnaa to feel and sound more authentic as the champion of the deprived. I stead of RTP he should focus on Oppaari ஒப்பாரி.....
Intellectually he speaks on a different plane ..not all of us can recognise his invitation, he makes an elegant point, doubly endorsed by the Trinity...the aesthetics of an art form, in this case carnatic music, are primarily internal to the sound, tempo, movement within the form itself. Sahitya adds an extra layer that may or may not move people, however the sound of the syllables, the alliterations all of them are sahityaa composed FOR music. What you experience in a purandara dasa kirtana I experience in the movement of a saveri. His remarks are about the aesthetics , the views expressed here have nothing to do with the subject under discussion by TMK , it's merely another convenient and easy judgement without an attempt to understand. I can live with that. After all the whole country is dealing with it. Evolve people!
@@mohanbala3743 Thank you for your thoughts. I beg to differ, though. I don't profess to understand carnatic music better than TMK does; I just argue that TMK is not the only "intellectual" out there, as also that TMK 's arguments are not logical enough for me. It is also my opinion that TMK cannot argue to know Tyagaraja or Diksitar the best; he seems to speak for them, and that is untenable. You are welcome to invite people to "grow up," of course, for calling out the glaring lapse in logic. Just begs the question who really needs to grow up😊
The doyens of carnatic music gave reverence to the composers They never would sit cross legged and show the arrogance in public discourse and talking about the sahitya which he himself doesn't understand Thr sahitya of tyagaraja are in telugu of that of purandara dasa in kannada etc The doyens knew the language that is how karnatik music is alive
Sir Please don''t massacre telugu - it is clearly beyond you. Bhavam has gone completely for a toss in your explanation. Pls listen to Dr. M Balamurali Krishna and you will get the bhavam, the true essence of the stanza correct. I once again pray - pls don't destroy the beautiful language that Telugu is. Thanks
Raga music is Bhava music centered around the unparalleled sahitya woven together with the Swara threads... Can't look at it separately… pl learn Telugu first
Also, there are people who say that lyrics are of not much (or no) importance at all and only the Raaga is. If so, why don't they just sing Aalapana, thanam and kalpanaswarams than butchering the lyrics by splitting very inappropriately. There's an interview of Mysore Vasudevacharya on TH-cam in kannada in which he clearly points out this distortion of bhava. There should be proper balance between Sangeetham and Sahityam.
And in 4 minutes 37 seconds TM Krishna bestows blatant disgrace to both telugu Sanskrit and Aarabhi Raga all at once... Its so funny that when people speak passable english and muse in their surroundings for most of the time, they are construed as intellectuals. The goosebumps he got was probably due to the cringe that he showered upon unfortunate viewers. The concept of Vaadhi Samwadhi has completely jumped his obviously intellectual brain...... When you spilt words flippantly just to prove a point the concert may take a disastrous turn sir!!! please preserve your precious knowledge; but just outside carnatic music because Thyagaraja is rolling in his grave listening to your malevolent CRINGE......
I am a nobody who doesn't have the musical knowledge of TMK to comment on the music part. But, when singing a keertana or song, it is important to split the words properly and still adhere to the raga and laya. That is where brilliance of an artist comes. So, to say the musical pattern is more important than the lyric is not correct. Panchratna krithis can still be sung with utmost importance to laya/pattern without massacaring the words. Tyagaraja swami himself says that without devotion knowledge of music is nothing in his keeratana 'sangeeta gnaanamu bhakti vina'. He also says that without bhakti/bhava/essence, just sticking to musical part is like decorating a corpse with ornaments. Balamuralikrishna has sung pancharatna kritis with perfect split of words. Breaking words at wrong places can change the entire meaning. A simple example 'rAmunitO kapivarunDu iTlaniye' means 'kapivaruDu, meaning hanuman, thus spoke to rAmA. If we break the word like this 'rAmunitOka pivarunDu itlaniye' then 'rAmunitOka' means rAmA's tail, pivarundu becomes meaning less and itlaniye means thus said. See how splitting a word wrongly changes entire thing and makes a mockery of the lyric.
This guy talks nonsense. He doesn't know Telugu grammer. The sahityam fits in perfectly sarva + Unnata= Sarvonnata, if you want to split it the way u like it will never make any sense. Listen to Sri BMK and learn the pancharatna krithis once again.
We shouldn't split the Sahitya as per notation. If you follow this rule you can't sing any krithi. If you split like this sahitya bhava will damage. Don't give the wrong message to coming generations
TMK just wants to show of his knowledge he aquired but doesn't have the humility to acknowledge that he is known to oeople because of carnatic music Otherwise who knows him Wants to get publicity All his admireres will shun him now
The doyens of carnatic music gave reverence to the composers They never would sit cross legged and show the arrogance in public discourse and talking about the sahitya which he himself doesn't understand Thr sahitya of tyagaraja are in telugu of that of purandara dasa in kannada etc The doyens knew the language that is how karnatik music is alive
The doyens of carnatic music gave reverence to the composers They never would sit cross legged and show the arrogance in public discourse and talking about the sahitya which he himself doesn't understand Thr sahitya of tyagaraja are in telugu of that of purandara dasa in kannada etc The doyens knew the language that is how karnatik music is alive
The doyens of carnatic music gave reverence to the composers They never would sit cross legged and show the arrogance in public discourse and talking about the sahitya which he himself doesn't understand Thr sahitya of tyagaraja are in telugu of that of purandara dasa in kannada etc The doyens knew the language that is how karnatik music is alive
Wow even this session was magic. Taking a bow to TMK for bringing us the enlightenment.
We need a discussion between TMK and someone like, say Prince Rama Varma
I don't see that happening.. But nice thought 👍
TMK will have discussions only with people who will scratch his back!
Prince Rama Varma who??
That will be thought provoking
You can still maintain continuation in singing sahityam and emphasize where every phrase starts which is what you did sir. You actually did not break the language there… as far as Telugu is concerned and whatever Thyagaraja wrote I agree that it’s beyond words and music that’s why they are Vaggeyakaras and these compositions have stood the test of time… especially Thyagaraja. You are blessed to have immense continuity in your voice and breath control that the point you are making is actually not conveyed because of how well you sang it…
I’m not any die hard fan but a total unbiased rasika and actually not your fan so unbiased opinion…
Great ❤️
Love you sir ❤
wove what a miracle sir everyman's need his body soul need get heel with Thiyagarajar songs
U also brilliant...
TMK a magician 🎉🎉🎉
I'm a Kathak dancer and been learning it since my early to mid-twenties. Still am with much focus. It was initiated in my life by a friend and I never looked back. I am of Tamil tongue born and brought up outside TN, by the way. From what little I understand, both musicians and listeners always treat Carnatic music as 'sahitya music' and Hindustani as 'raaga music'. Now, after listening to him say these things, I am looking back and contemplating what disinterested me in learning carnatic music as a child. I have a fairly good voice. Was it its emphasis on sahitya (rather than raaga) even as not teaching the child (me as a child) the meaning of the words? I don't know. I have just started thinking on those terms. Too early to conclude anything now. ❤🎉
He was in bhakti when he sung this, he was dissecting like you, pay attention to lyrics. Bhakti is the base. Raga is science. Catch emotions. It's not Raga, Raga is there but it's Bhakti Music at its core, deny it all you want
After watching this explanation folks will not complain that TMK sirs hands keep flying in all directions unlike other artists 😊
That's genuinely out of sheer passion and intensity!
@@krisn90 Yes. TMK is my most favorite carnatic vocalist. His bhavam s simply out of the world. Sheer ecstasy.
But tyagaraja didn't notate the kritis right ? He went on singing and his disciples notated it if I'm not wrong coz it's manasa niketana and not maana saniketana and tyagaraja sang it with devotion he might be a great musician but he did it with devotion so the lyrics are important. I might be wrong also but yeah this is just a perspective
Thysgaraja swamy is extolled as one of the trinurthys of carnatic music! He just wrote and didn't notate???
Music all over the world is primarily a combination of notes and rhythmic patterns . Words are superimposed in it secondarily.
In Hindustani music the Raga is the main focus and words do not bear much significance. The bandishes are very short and this allows the artiste innovate almost from the start without being bound by the word. Therefore this is best suited to nirguna ( attribute less ) form of Bhakti.
Carnatic style is different. Krithis are long and words play a far more important role because the Bhakti here is Saguna and words are needed to describe the attributes.
Yes Carnatic singers do tend to not pay attention to synchronizing word phrasing with note phrasing. But this does not mean words and Bhakti have to take a back seat in this form of music because that destroys the very form of Carnatic music.Understand and respect each form in its totality. No need to make issues of non issues .
But how do we define the confines of a raaga sir? It is based off of the compositions isn't it.. So both of them feed of off each other maybe..
No words to express. Brilliant sir
TM Krishna will be singing a RTP "General Dyer Mahaan, Sikh log They bewakoof" and presenting it at Jallian Walla Bhagh and at the Amritsar Golden temple. Go TMK!!
which keertana is this? Not able to find all the lyrics?...brilliance TMK sir
The kirthana is one of Tyagaraja's Ghana raga pancharatna kritis 'sAdhincenE O manasA'. He is singing one of the charanams here.
Bhaavam is also in the rhythm, rhythmic patterns, and raaga - not just in the sahityam. We can see how Pt. Birju Maharaj ji tells stories and scenarios to the audience using sheer foorwork and tihaais. You see, in hindustani, we go like okay jhaptaal is playful, dhamaar taal is of grave and intense nature etc. Not sure if it applies to Carnatic music too. But then, taals are taals. Rhythms are rhythms no matter what. So, as a Hindustani dancer, I'm speculating that it can apply to carnatic music also.
At last an intelligent observer👌music is an aural art form , everything is in the sound including the sound of the syllables of sahitya...the composers composed the sahitya FOR the music
No, it does not collapse. He himself splits at @2:36 correctly as per the Sahitya and maintains the integrity of the raga. He confuses two different aspects in this video - splitting the sahitya for breath and emphasis on swaras that highlight the raga. You can split the sahitya at the right places without compromising on the beauty of the raga.
Song has meaning but you don't know language that's your problem.
Tyagaraja with full of love and compassion towards Lord rama he wrote those kritis and tuned it.
Good to know TMK can speak some nice words about someone belonging to a tradition!
Lmao
What a dumb comment. Did T Brinda, MS Subbhalakshmi, and Ramnad Krishnan not belong to a tradition? You should think before you speak.
@@tejasnair3399 wonder why everyone gets so abusive and spew all the accumulated hatred online even without understanding what is said.
You may pls read my comment again before vomiting gibberish and exposing yourself. And where did MS, or Brinda Amma come into picture at all!! I'm seriously hoping this reply was posted to a wrong comment.
Outstanding ❤❤
Interesting observation. But we don't know how Tyagaraja sang this, while it is very clear that singers/gurus over the generations have intentionally or otherwise changed the way it is sung (just look at the differences in many pathantarams). Anyway, I don't perceive any "loss" of Arabhi here: th-cam.com/video/I4br30FP1Ao/w-d-xo.html
He sings with the same emphasis that tmk mentions here
Please listen to BMK pancharatna krithis and u will understand Krishna. Ur explanation is wrong.
Wow, incredible! 😳😍
I don't think TMK himself has realized that he hasn't really spilt the words up the wrong way. He has merely emphasizes various syllables of a word in accordance with the swara-patterning. TMK is so filled with the obsessions to disapprove of people's desire to place sahitya over swara, he fails to see what he is himself doing. This preoccupation with rhythmic patterns is not a brain-child of TMK. It can be observed clearly in the chandas (metre) of Sanskrit slokas. TMK comes across as an individual, who cannot seem to agree with anything or anyone. He seems to be mounting argument merely for the sake of arguing, neither making real sense nor being able to reasonably prove his stance. He reasons that one must not define music based on ones own personal values. He seems to be doing the same in stating music is divorced from bhakti and the likes. I recommend he merely sing and keep his interpretations to himself!
I recommend that he stops singing. Simple, integrity issues. If he does not value lyrics or devotion, let him NOT touch the compositions which are essentially bhakthi-laden. Let him create his own songs n render. More importantly let him use 'accessible' language , something like Chennai Tamizh and create songs for his rendition. He should also stop using Brahmin accompanying artistes and 'brahminical ' accompaniments - should start using thaarai/thappattai/udukku etc and devote his life to promote music which has been 'denied' to various groups. He should drop the elite sounding Sanskrit name Krishna and use the local slang equivalent ...may be something like kisnaa to feel and sound more authentic as the champion of the deprived. I stead of RTP he should focus on Oppaari ஒப்பாரி.....
@@rsprasad-fg4kx I quite understand your sentiment.
Intellectually he speaks on a different plane ..not all of us can recognise his invitation, he makes an elegant point, doubly endorsed by the Trinity...the aesthetics of an art form, in this case carnatic music, are primarily internal to the sound, tempo, movement within the form itself. Sahitya adds an extra layer that may or may not move people, however the sound of the syllables, the alliterations all of them are sahityaa composed FOR music. What you experience in a purandara dasa kirtana I experience in the movement of a saveri.
His remarks are about the aesthetics , the views expressed here have nothing to do with the subject under discussion by TMK , it's merely another convenient and easy judgement without an attempt to understand. I can live with that. After all the whole country is dealing with it. Evolve people!
@@mohanbala3743 Thank you for your thoughts. I beg to differ, though. I don't profess to understand carnatic music better than TMK does; I just argue that TMK is not the only "intellectual" out there, as also that TMK 's arguments are not logical enough for me. It is also my opinion that TMK cannot argue to know Tyagaraja or Diksitar the best; he seems to speak for them, and that is untenable. You are welcome to invite people to "grow up," of course, for calling out the glaring lapse in logic. Just begs the question who really needs to grow up😊
The doyens of carnatic music gave reverence to the composers
They never would sit cross
legged and show the arrogance in public discourse and talking about the sahitya which he himself doesn't understand
Thr sahitya of tyagaraja are in telugu of that of purandara dasa in kannada etc
The doyens knew the language that is how karnatik music is alive
Sir Please don''t massacre telugu - it is clearly beyond you. Bhavam has gone completely for a toss in your explanation. Pls listen to Dr. M Balamurali Krishna and you will get the bhavam, the true essence of the stanza correct. I once again pray - pls don't destroy the beautiful language that Telugu is. Thanks
Dr. M Balamuralikrishna sir has split the words in the same way.
@@TheShreyas56 read my comment again pls. My comment is about bhavam, not on how it is split.
Well said
Raga music is Bhava music centered around the unparalleled sahitya woven together with the Swara threads... Can't look at it separately… pl learn Telugu first
Sahitya shouldn't be an obsession to an artist. If sahitya is an obsession, then it is better to sing only the svara and not spoil the sahitya.
Also, there are people who say that lyrics are of not much (or no) importance at all and only the Raaga is. If so, why don't they just sing Aalapana, thanam and kalpanaswarams than butchering the lyrics by splitting very inappropriately. There's an interview of Mysore Vasudevacharya on TH-cam in kannada in which he clearly points out this distortion of bhava. There should be proper balance between Sangeetham and Sahityam.
@@venkat6260...
Please provide the link to that video or the title.
Please.
Most of audience comments because of poramai and to damage his Personality.Hmm...
And in 4 minutes 37 seconds TM Krishna bestows blatant disgrace to both telugu Sanskrit and Aarabhi Raga all at once...
Its so funny that when people speak passable english and muse in their surroundings for most of the time, they are construed as intellectuals.
The goosebumps he got was probably due to the cringe that he showered upon unfortunate viewers. The concept of Vaadhi Samwadhi has completely jumped his obviously intellectual brain...... When you spilt words flippantly just to prove a point the concert may take a disastrous turn sir!!! please preserve your precious knowledge; but just outside carnatic music because Thyagaraja is rolling in his grave listening to your malevolent CRINGE......
Seems an attempt to put seeds that carnatic music is not anchored by devotion! "Raga music"
I am a nobody who doesn't have the musical knowledge of TMK to comment on the music part. But, when singing a keertana or song, it is important to split the words properly and still adhere to the raga and laya. That is where brilliance of an artist comes. So, to say the musical pattern is more important than the lyric is not correct. Panchratna krithis can still be sung with utmost importance to laya/pattern without massacaring the words. Tyagaraja swami himself says that without devotion knowledge of music is nothing in his keeratana 'sangeeta gnaanamu bhakti vina'. He also says that without bhakti/bhava/essence, just sticking to musical part is like decorating a corpse with ornaments.
Balamuralikrishna has sung pancharatna kritis with perfect split of words. Breaking words at wrong places can change the entire meaning. A simple example 'rAmunitO kapivarunDu iTlaniye' means 'kapivaruDu, meaning hanuman, thus spoke to rAmA. If we break the word like this 'rAmunitOka pivarunDu itlaniye' then 'rAmunitOka' means rAmA's tail, pivarundu becomes meaning less and itlaniye means thus said. See how splitting a word wrongly changes entire thing and makes a mockery of the lyric.
If you don't know the meaning of the song you are singing then you haven't learned anything, you are singing a rap song like Eminem.
Meaning is poetry pa! Understand the meaning to know the poetry, not music! Learn an instrument you will know!!!
This guy talks nonsense. He doesn't know Telugu grammer. The sahityam fits in perfectly sarva + Unnata= Sarvonnata, if you want to split it the way u like it will never make any sense. Listen to Sri BMK and learn the pancharatna krithis once again.
We shouldn't split the Sahitya as per notation. If you follow this rule you can't sing any krithi. If you split like this sahitya bhava will damage. Don't give the wrong message to coming generations
Completely misunderstood Swami Thayagaraja
TMK just wants to show of his knowledge he aquired but doesn't have the humility to acknowledge that he is known to oeople because of carnatic music
Otherwise who knows him
Wants to get publicity
All his admireres will shun him now
The doyens of carnatic music gave reverence to the composers
They never would sit cross
legged and show the arrogance in public discourse and talking about the sahitya which he himself doesn't understand
Thr sahitya of tyagaraja are in telugu of that of purandara dasa in kannada etc
The doyens knew the language that is how karnatik music is alive
The doyens of carnatic music gave reverence to the composers
They never would sit cross
legged and show the arrogance in public discourse and talking about the sahitya which he himself doesn't understand
Thr sahitya of tyagaraja are in telugu of that of purandara dasa in kannada etc
The doyens knew the language that is how karnatik music is alive
The doyens of carnatic music gave reverence to the composers
They never would sit cross
legged and show the arrogance in public discourse and talking about the sahitya which he himself doesn't understand
Thr sahitya of tyagaraja are in telugu of that of purandara dasa in kannada etc
The doyens knew the language that is how karnatik music is alive