I was 43 seconds in when your comment caught my eye, pause, read remaining comment... I concur. Discovered Lars several years ago while trying to construct my first ever bow and arrows. Been shooting since childhood, archery then hunting. Lars brought back my love for the bow and arrow, and opened my eyes to the ancient old/Lars proven techniques! Life is wonderful again at 69!
Yes, it really makes me realize how ignorant I am and haven’t put time into learning a secondary language. It was nice to listen to and also made me think a minute about what their intended definition of “darling” was.
Not a misnomer exactly. They get the wrong idea when reading the dictionary definition. Instincts do not make you a perfect archer without practice any more than they make you the fastest runner or the best at throwing things without practice. They later conclude, in this video, that humans do have instincts for archery. All instinctual behavior can get better or worse through habits and practice. I would just call it archery and have a different name for the modern target shooting style with rigid body mechanics. All other sports is done in this way of trying to forget the body mechanics and execute without conscious thought. We do not call it instinctive or reflexive soccer, just soccer. The modern target shooting style is the weird one that is not normal archery. Old archery traditions do not teach rigid body mechanics. They teach principles and lots of practice and to use both sides as equally as possible to avoid long term injury... The modern target shooting style really is a modern style and a tiny niche in the history of archery...
It's just playing with definitions. Most archers consider "instinctive archery" to be like throwing a ball or playing tennis, and such. Nobody claims you don't need to practice in order to hit.
@@TrickinNinja Dennis was right the first time. What that person is describing is procedural memory, which is completely different from instinct. The common name for it is "muscle memory," but that can lead to the false impression that it's stored in the muscles. It's a thing the brain does to simplify motor skills that it's learned to the point where you no longer need to think about them.
@@TheLithp I would not be at all surprised if there are actually some lower level elements of the memory in the muscles. We already know it exists in the spine for reflexes, and that subconscious processing takes place all throughout the neural system, especially in the gut (where the "gut feeling" comes from- it's aggregating information that your conscious mind never receives). It would make perfect sense to have the most fundamental subroutines stored in/near the location they are actually needed rather than needlessly dealing with the lag time of communicating all the way back to the brain for every aspect.
Lars and the other archer both say humans obviously have instincts for archery towards the end of this video, just like evolutionary biologists and pretty much all archery traditions have been saying. Learning, training, getting better is part of most instincts in all animals. He just got confused by that dictionary definition that he misunderstood. Some humans are obviously better than others at throwing a rock, even at walking or running or talking.. All things that are instinctual. Birds take time and effort to get good at flying even when they are strong enough to do so and some individuals are far better at flying than others of the same species... The fact that you can get better at a skill does not mean that it is not instinctual...
I just assumed you were using the English word instinctive to describe Reflexive shooting. Figured it was a language problem. You are directionally correct
Yeah, they are definitely confused about what instincts mean. In the video they come to the conclusion that humans do have instincts for archery. That training makes you better is the same for all instincts so they said nothing against the notion of instinctive archery...
Hey Lars, I've been following you for a long time now even though I haven't tried archery once in my life because your videos are so interesting and informative. Firstly I would like to thank you both for making such an effort to speak English for your audience too even though you could speak Danish and talk much easier! It is really amazing to see how well you trained your body and muscle memory through years to become this good with a non-professional bow and arrow. Seeing Jes breaking down your learned and habitualized methods of archery and explaining what you are doing unconsciously really shows archery is a skill that can be honed to extremes to be almost "instinctiual." Seeing you two talk about archery as "trained muscle memory" vs "more conscious and methodological process" is amazing as we get to see two different perpectives of two very good archers. Also what caught my attention is how you looked at Jes as he was explaining the methods to you. It is awesome to see you look so excited as you're still so eager to learn more about archery even though you're already so well at it and it reflects in your videos too! Thank you for making this video once again. It was an amazing watch. And happy new years!
You should give it a go Cem, I recently went to try archery for the first time last weekend and fell in love with the sport instantly. I, just like you, had been watching archery on TH-cam on and off for years and decided to randomly go on my own (as I don't have any friends)... and I'm so glad I did as its so much fun. I hope you're able to give it a try sometime my friend, as if you enjoy watching it... then I'm sure you'll love doing it.
Yes God bless you two for deliberately slowing down your minds in order to have these conversations in English so that we can learn so much from you. Thank you for your patience, generosity, and understanding, it is greatly appreciated.
Lars Andersen does what he usually does. Something completely impossible. Something you would see in a Hollywood movie and scoff at for being unrealistic. In this case he shoots arrows through a keyhole seven times in a row and breaks the world record. Then he sits down with a professional archer and lets him try at less than half the distance. The professional archer misses the target-dish three times in a row. Before I watched this movie I pondered whether Lars is from another planet. Now I'm wondering if he's from the another age.
Good to know Lars learned archery in his mid-thirties . Archery is learned behavior as is throwing a rock , using a sling or an atlatl , the inborne or instinctive aspect is the ability for our brains to quickly learn from the first period of shooting or throwing experience and quickly compensate for distance to the target with all the variables that seems to be exclusive to humans. Glad they briefly showed the clip of the young women who just after a few hours of archery practice went from complete beginners to hitting things out of the air .
This video makes me feel very fortunate. Two of arguably the best shooters of our time pouring out golden information and thought process for 20 minutes about our sport. Thank you guys Happy New Year, huge fan
I'm really happy that you're studying the interrelationship between the conscious mind and the subconscious and their effects on aiming and manual skills. I'm sitting here with a young Danish friend who used my heavy old compound bow some 3 to 4 years ago and loosed perhaps 100 arrows, all at a range of around 10m. Six weeks ago he took the same bow and shot it at a distance of some 35-40m - the first six arrows were in perfect grouping - about 15cm, from then on it was terrible (sometimes even missing the 1.5 x 1.5m butt). The thing is I have taught a lot of manual skills to a lot of people and knew basically what would happen, though the extremity of it surprised me: It's nice to have some measurement of the effect of inbuilt skill or muscle memory. I would say that for the first three days skills at almost anything will start reasonably good and get worse over three days, then they get suddenly far better in one jump, and then changes are small after that. But I will take care to measure the effect in future. I know from running a business some years ago that my subconscious mind could tell me in my sleep exactly what materials to buy for a complex project with thousands of variables and measurements (I would wake up and write them down, these estimations were perfect every time and reduced waste to almost zero and led to a very high efficiency and so high profitability) whereas my conscious mind could not get even close to this. If workers asked me to deviate from my subconsciously formed plan, it would not work so well, but if I stuck to the plan stubbornly it would end up 'perfect'. This was frustrating for workers/others around me as they often had good arguments at the time for doing what looked like a good alternative, and only people I had worked with a long time were ok with it as it could easily seem arrogant if they didn't know me. The whole topic really interests me and you could take research to an entire next level with your years of experience and skill and teaching. Thanks for doing so many videos in English and doing your best to show us your findings, it's really appreciated: I remember you struggling at the start. Mange tak og rigtige go' førnøjelser.
The whole 1) start out good, 2) go downhill, 3) stay there for a while and finally 4) a sudden improvement, is definitely something I've seen happen with me. Something I need to keep reminding myself as I practice 🙂
Oh you're so right, learning is the best :) And yes, Jes Lysgaard and Lars Andersen 100% makes it even more fun with the passion, and especially practical mastery, they display But it should be said they aren't 'experts', Jes is a sports coach and writer by profession, while Lars is actually an art painter and writer(which in itself is pretty amazing) The fact of the matter is archery is indeed instinctive, since our ancestors evolved this uncommon ability roughly two million years ago as a way of improving their/our hunting prowess And don't take it from me, I'm not just another Danish dude who's passionate about history and learning, take it from the science people :) Lars has even been a guest on a science show on Danish national TV, about how the human body evolved unique throwing skills 2 million years ago, but that's show is in Danish, so lol xD Lars really is a good example of not being afraid to be wrong about stuff, and constantly learn new stuff, but he's not overly concerned, I think, with human anatomy and it's evolution None scholea sed vita descimus (We don't learn for school but for life) :) scholar.harvard.edu/ntroach/evolution-throwing
this is really just a matter of semantics, whether you call it 'instinctive' or reflexive archery or whatever you want, it amounts to the same thing. Good discussion.
Yeah, colloquially, the two words are thought of and used interchangeably. It's only the strictest of dictionary definitions that varies the meaning, which most people neither know or care about. That said, because English is a second language to them both, it's understandable that one or the other could hear the word "instinctive" and then look up the definition and go "Well, that's not what's happening!" So I get why they had the discussion, and why they could want to make a video to clear the air.
14:31...I do believe so...I once read that humans have a natural ability to accurately point the index finger at a target from around 1-200m(distance is from memory) It makes sense seeing as pointing in the direction of either a threat or a resource surely predates verbal communication and projectile weapons... A rifle or a bow is held at arms length along the line of sight in exactly the same way that a finger is pointed. There is a instinctive archer in all of us even if the archery isn't truly instinctive.
Not only have they correctly identified the unconscious process of muscle memory for consistent shooting, but they were both able to communicate that very well in English!!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 As with anything that is spot on and mostly truthful, this is not going to be recieved by a lot of people that have calcified themselves into believing the contrary notion that instinctive archery exists. You two should rethink what you've been programmed to believe about how old mankind really is, as the entire earth was made about six thousand years ago and even the oldest writings we have were found to be about 4,000 years ago, about the time of the confounding of the languages at Mesopotamia (Shinar). But we are living in a world that has so much deception, people genuinely hate the truth because lies are what they've built their entire worldview up on. Keep em coming Lars!!!! This was great
In the sense that we have instincts that makes it easy to learn archery, like throwing a rock or , obviously this exists... Science, evolutionary biology, there are published papers on this... This guy is talking about how we aim, getting better through training... Not about whether or not humans have instincts for archery... We still take a long time to learn to walk and run and throw a rock to hit a target, and only a few are training enough to do special things with their running or jumping or throwing. Would you say humans have no instincts for walking or running? for throwing a rock? Nothing in this video says anything against instinctive archery. They are just confused about the terminology...
@@0ooTheMAXXoo0 its definitely more muscle memory than instinct, learning to walk absolutely requires much practice given previous input and definitely throwing is learned based on experience and is object and hand specific. archers always reference something when shooting it may be the arrow, the bow, the hand. whether they make it a dedicated conscious effort is really the argument, some call it instinctive but i agree its a silly term but the mind does seem to get in the way of quite a few folks when shooting.
@@azure4100 you just answered your own question. It's reflex shooting, not instinctive. Did you watch the whole video? It's absolutely a matter of the semantics of the word. Words have meanings
@@azure4100 i dont really see it that way, folks are born with instincts, they are not learned, reflex is maybe closer to what people mean most of the time but people just have been using that term to describe lower level conscious effort or maybe even preconscious. true reflex is involuntary and thats definitely not what you want when lobbing pointy sticks towards other things. safe effective archery is always intentional, what you choose to focus on is personal based on data over time with what works for you based on your goals. i go through a shot process where i actively say in my mind "form, focus, follow through", make sure my body feels right, i stare as intensely as i can at the smallest part of my target, and i make sure my body ends up in as close to my final form as to increase repeatability. i wouldnt say thats anywhere near instinctive but some folks have argued with me that its instinctive, i just dont how all the steps that i or others do can be misconstrued as such or even a reflex.
To me it is really interesting to follow your conversation because not only did you identified the origins and tools Lars' archery method uses but also compared it to traditional archery. I am so thankful for this information and the input you gave because I myself would love to improve my archery skills but unfortunally I'm living not only too far away for a teaching lesson but also there might be no opportunity to get tought by you, too. It would be so interesting to have a quick video of you, Lars, explaining how your trainees start to learn your archery style to get even more into it.
I'm completely unaware of who these people are. But I just sat here for the last half hour or so and listen to some of the best conversation I've ever heard in my life. Kudos y'all. Keep up the good work You are absolute spirits of the earth!
Many thanks to both of you, first for taking the time, second for discussing in english and third for being so open! I agree that somehow we may have inherited something about archery from our ancestors. I have no other explanation why kid's adopt to archery that easy. When I was a kid, I did not have one single string slap on my forearm, only when I started as a grown up, started thinking about everything that happened the first time. I think as long as you are not thinking, you have a good chance to be better, to use what has been handed over from long gone archers.
Yeah, they conclude that, like scientists have been saying, humans do have instincts related to archery. They seem to be confused in thinking that it is not instinctual if you can get better at it through practice. Even breathing can be done better or worse due to habits and exercise... One sparrow will be way more agile at flying maneuvers than another sparrow, just due to how they used their instincts in practice...
I am not an archer but as a shot gun shooter I find this fascinating. Sometimes when I am shooting well it seems so easy that I wonder how I can ever miss and then I do. Many people quip that thinking is contrary to good shooting. I think of old documentaries I have seen where young hunter gathers start by shooting things with a bow from three feet away. They can immediately get close enough to the target to see how they are shooting and so immediately begin to construct an organic connection with the bow. Maybe a rule for learning is to never be further away than you can usually hit the target? I am going to try it. Fascinating.. Thanks so much for doing this in English. So thought provoking.
I've done a few sports and I have always performed best when actually not thinking too much about what I'm doing and instead becoming one mind and body and just kind of letting it happen , obviously practicing for many hours is necessary but there does become a point when the two things just seems to click .
As a Norwegian it's easier for me to understand Danish than Swedish. The Copenhagen or Jylland dialects are pretty straight forward :) Been waiting a long time for a video like this. Thanks to both of you!
Thank you gentlemen for this fabulous talk. When I started archery, I wanted to find this way of the mind. I stuck with shooting as one would a basketball- focus on the target and learn and refine the movements to be a better shot. It takes alot of practice, but it does work. I have noticed the bit about "properly" distracting ones self just enough to not allow the louder part of the mind to drown out the silent master lurking beneath... Keep exploring.
you BOTH have taken the time to program your "biocomputer" to be accurate and create precise placement of arrows the more you program it the better and faster it gets breathing ... communitation... reproduction are instinctive wonderful watching you two share
Talking is instinctive, you still gotta learn a lot of a language to be understood by others. Walking or running is instinctual but practice make one human twice as fast as another... One sparrow is way more agile than another because of their practical experience. Both obviously have instincts for flying... The archers in this video both come to the conclusion that humans have instincts for archery... They are confused because they think that any skill where you can get better through practice is not an instinct even though even breathing can be better or worse through habits and practice...
All instincts can be refined with practice... Instincts do not mean the behavior is perfected without training... If you look at a bunch of sparrows, some will be way more agile than others... Are you saying flying is not instinctive for birds because practice and life experience can make one individual better? In this very video they come to the conclusion that humans do have instincts for archery... It starts about 3/4 of the way in.... They are just trying to get clicks with the "Instinctive archery does not exist", "I have changed my mind" bit... That was the revelation about halfway through the video, then, about 3/4 of the way through the video they both conclude that humans do have instincts for archery and that training makes you better, just like with talking, or walking, or running, or throwing a rock, or with flying in birds...
@@0ooTheMAXXoo0 I agree with all you say, I wasn't trying to make any point, just recalling that I have heard that phrase a lot over the years. Flying is an instinct for a bird, and as you say, it has to be practised to hone the skill. And hunting would be an instinct for us, but would still require practise to be good at it, whether using a spear, sling or bow. I suppose the phrase I mentioned, means, whatever we do, if we practise it enough, it almost becomes instinctive, so we don't have to think about it. I do think Lars is exceptional though, he has trained an awful lot, but even so, his skill is amazing.. Truly showing what some of us are capable of, and how amazingly God designed the human body, and put those instincts in us . 😀
@@pauln7422 That’s like the phrase "it's only a theory." It may be common, but in a scientific sense, it's wrong. The proper term for skills that become automated with practice is procedural memory. So, am I really saying that birds don't have a flight instinct? Well, yeah. That may sound counterintuitive, but if you really break it down, what they do is reflexively flap their wings & learn from a combination of parenting & trial-by-error how to fly. It's not just a matter of getting better: Birds that are not taught will not be able to fly. It would be like saying we have an instinct for English, which is obviously wrong. What we have is mechanisms that make language easier to learn, just like we have procedural memory to pick up new skills.
I have a friend who is freakishly good with a bow and arrow. As a kid, he was also an extremely talented baseball pitcher who pitched his little league team all the way to victory at the little league world series. I suspect it isn't a coincidence that he can shoot a bow freakishly accurately and also throw baseballs accurately at ridiculously high speeds. I'm sure part of the reason he can do both of these things as well as he can is down to training and intuition developed through practice, but training and practice alone can't explain why he is so much better at these activities than other people, even when they've had as much training and practice as he has. Clearly, he was born with a brain that has a particularly well tuned ballistics computer built into it. To the extent that natural talent is the reason for his unusual skill, I think it would be fair to say that he has a well developed instinct for hitting things he's aiming at with projectiles he launches, whether it's an arrow from a bow or a ball that he throws. P.S. My friend could probably have become a professional baseball pitcher had his little league coach not pressured him to throw curve balls when he was too young to do so safely. My friend's pitching career ended prematurely when the growth plate on one of the bones of his pitching arm ripped off while he was pitching a little league game.
Thanks for this little story you shared here! I think you described certrain key-elements to this mystery very well. But there is more to it then JUST body or muscle memory... I'm convinced it has something to do with being convinced to hit and visualize it in your inner eye before shooting or doing something... we are going in derictions of "chi and magic" with this but yes BOTH EXISTS!
@@stianthijsen4784 For sure, just like some people are born with a better sense of smell than others, or are born smarter than others, some people are born with a natural ability to aim and hit things with projectiles much better than most people.
i'm no archer but shooting slingshots. The moment i release i "know" (feel) if i hit or not. Ever wondered what's behind this - you guys really gave a superb insight in your thoughts regarding this topic
the Zen of doing something , you stop worrying about hitting the target and just hit the target , empty mind . Takes practice to get there - enjoy the process
One thing I've learned is that there are some memories that are "learned" before you are born. I call them inherited memories from great grand-parents or further back in history. You discuss this in your video when you are talking in the woods. Thanks for discussing it so others can learn as well.
The conclusion is that we do have instincts for archery and just like with walking or running or throwing a rock, training makes us better at the things we have instincts for.
Sir, it may not be instinctive by definition, but it is as close as one can get, I think that you are not just the fastest archer in the world but also the best, you have given me belief in myself and without you I would not be the archer I am today, thank you very much, sir
Very, very interesting discussion. Read Jes Lysgaards books in English and learn more. Jes Lysgaards last book from december 2022 tells the whole story (printed in Danish, but will probably be translated to English in the future!). I am a longbow archer (practicing for 40 years now) and have known Lars and Jes for some years now and have learned a lot from both. And from their videos. I was surprised learning that Lars has been convinced by Jes about instinctive shooting. Greetings from John Merland
Lars Andersen you're a LEGEND! Keep it up and ignore the haters if you have any - You and Kassai are my favorite archers with PURE skill. Modern archery like most things today is nothing but assistance handicap that humans LOVE, handicap. Historical Archery like many historical things are nothing but pure skill and should be treasures in this lazy modern society we live in. Keep uploading more! And in my opinion, it's all connected to a very personal space in your brain when it comes to accuracy and soul, it's what they practise a lot in Kyodo. It's an extremely spiritual mental exercise - Archery. // JL
Very new to archery - absolutely grateful for your knowledge and sharing it with us! Thank you so much! I loved watching you two have these mental gymnastics over what is and what isn't instinctive archery! Can't wait to shoot like both of you. (I now have the itch to modify my compound bow like Lars did in the armour shooting!)
When instinctive means present from birth onwards, this is definitely not enough to explain Lars archery. But there is definitely a difference between his and tournament archery. It's the difference between analytic and intuitive. Thinking analytically means to break the problem down in parts. Thinking intuitively means solving everything in one step by sorting the neural input inside a space of previously experienced inputs. So maybe intuitive archery is the better word.
Because of you Lars, I went and bought a Grozer Csaba Biocomposite Hun bow. I tried to do instinctive archery with a thumb release technique. I wanted to learn to do rapid shooting. I suck. Lol. It's very hard and way more inaccurate compared to my compound bow. But I'm still keen to learn and keen trying. I honestly don't know how to aim
Instinctive, Intuitive, Reflexive, Traditional, etc. In the end it's basically the same thing, just a matter of precise language and definitions. It requires practice, but is still rather intuitive.
Yes, you can see these rituals in athletes often. They will say a prayer, touch an amulet, make a few special steps before their attempts (e.g. free throw in basketball). They trigger something in the brain by doing certain actions. Almost like entering a password to login and activate "performance mode". It's fire and forget from there.
I very much enjoyed your video and your very advanced conversation - openminded and grown-up - something which is becoming rarer and rarer nowadays. I would - have ? - considered myself an instinctive shooter too. I'm into archery for more than 30 years now (I'm 62 years old). Given your thoughts maybe there should be another expression for "our" style of shooting, where you look at the target and "think" the arrow there. The expression I would suggest would be Subconscious Shooting. As a matter of fact I live in Vienna - the city of Sigmund Freud, therefore it is only fitting to make such a suggestion. In German we would call it: Unterbewußtes Bogenschießen. 🙂
This seems quite similar to the concept of "alignment" in pistol shooting, where pistol shooters take off their sights entirely and learn to accurately "point" the pistol with proprioception.
I used to call it „intuitive archery“ for me, but maybe the better term is „subconscious aiming“. My question is: how can I get there without getting stuck in conscious aiming techniques like (for example) gapshooting. Should I train these techniques and then try to „forget“ about them again? Thanks for your Inspiration!
I like to call it Kinesthetic archery (also often called muscle memory at least in part). Kinesthetics learning and practice is when you are using your muscles and your body to tell the story, and not when setting up a "perfect shot" for practice. Your muscles tell your brain how hard they are working and where they are in space (based on feel and motion). Almost all sportsmen of every type (futbol, football, basketball, etc.) eventually benefit from this kenesthic feedback, and intentional practice of kinesthetics helps speed it along. It does however make you seem clumsy early in the process, but it quickly begins to feel good when you reach even a low level of competency. Knowing you can aim without even looking and hit a man sized target 20 feet away is something to feel quite chuffed about.
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us. Is it possible that you use "intuitive archery"? - and that this intuition is learned through practice and supported by genetic memory instincts which have been developing a bit during the last 50.000 years? So when you shoot you build on your practice but dont have to think about aiming because you pushed your aiming from the act of thinking to the acts of remembering and intuition. That way you achieve your archery speed?
Yes Intuitive would also work, however as one of the definitions of Instinct "a natural or intuitive way of acting or thinking." so does Instinct and Instinctive. so.. 🤷♂
I never had any doubt that Muscle Memory is immensely involved as with all motorskills, but i always actually perceived archery to be intuitive, rather than instinctive. Much like throwing stones, isn´t really something you´re good at instinctively, but that can only be learned intuitively, since there is no way to "aim" a stonethrow, altho with archery that is not quite as disconnected.
This concept is something I use in everyday life for everything. I let my subconscious mind control my body while my conscious mind focuses on something else. The subconscious mind is infinitely more powerful than the conscious mind and I find it builds muscle memory for almost everything I do. From working with my hands to walking through a dark house at night and knowing where everything is.
The instinctive part you talked about which we learned through our ancestors - I think this is not concerning archery only, but using tools with our hands, with our eyes and so on. We maybe have a genetical advantage on understanding different tools in general. That might mean if we know what a tool (like a bow) or a screw driver is made for, we can look at it and already have an idea how it works, without ever receiving an explanation from somebody else.
I love the concept of reflex archery... The one thing Im still very intruiged about is the feeling of a target... Like how one actually feels a target and knows exactly where to shoot when and how to hit what... I dunno if thats a reflex or how that works but I heard a bunch of people talk about that and during my research for a video game Im writing I stumbled over this in older texts... Either way Lars is probably the best source for Archery tricks when it comes to explanations... Taught me so much and Im excited how the stuff I learned from him will pan out in my game when I bought all the assets...
I have to show this video to some of my colleagues at the archery club! I've been shooting since 2021 and the first thing I said is that instinctive shooting doesn't exist! all types (including Lars') are trained. Like an ATP tennis player who are so precise without having the ball in hand, like walking or running in the forest without knowing the way and yet not tripping! Thanks for the confirmation and the explanation.
Hello, Friends, I have started shooting my bow “arrow wrong side”. I am right handed and left eye dominant. Is it more important to shoot with my dominant hand for knocking and release, or eye for target alignment ? Haha! Both my bows are right handed so I had to switch to left handed to shoot them wrong side, with thumb ring, what fun! Thank you, Kenny
Ever heard the term "Instinctive Table tennis" Its eye, hand, body coordination. In any case we can be sure Lars would be good at Table tennis too. You'll be amazed by the tricks some table tennis players can do. And the way I see it, Lars is simply doing the same thing. The bow & arrows are an extension of his mind and body. Modern archery seams rigid in form by comparison. They pull to a fixed length and shoots the arrow with the same speed and aim to compensate for distance. Its a precise and repeatable method but it can't be used to replicate what Lars does because their aiming and muscle memory is tied to a certain draw length.
Awesome, Thanks for sharing. Anyone have any idea which documentary they're referencing when talking about the genetic memory with projectile/thrown weapons?
In my opinion, instinctive means you don't need to learn it, it's in your genes. You can refine and automate it. I think everyone needs to learn to shoot with archery. Thank you very much for this video.
Oh but using your instinct doesnt mean that things happen out of magic, essentially means to let your mechanical memory to take over an action. When you do something new, you have to focus and try to put skills to work in order to accomplish what you are trying to do. When you do something that you already did a million times even if this time is much mire complicated, often is easy to not overthink but just do it. About the ancient or genetic thing that make humans good archers, yes is what humans do, we are made with an exceptional eye-hand-target coordination, so you dont have to study much to learn how to throw anything, im sure if you give a javelin to someone that has never seen how to throw a javelin, eventually he will figure out something close to the actual technique.
The question of whether there is a target point isn’t what defines instinct shooting. The question is how is this target perceived by the archer? Is it a destination, a separate conclusion to a multi stage process? The afterlife to a life? Or is it all part of one fluid thing? One fluid existence, a dance that the predator and prey are both taking part in, fully aware that they’ll dance this dance forever. Through this lens, there’s never a need for a separate action known as “aiming”, because the target isn’t the point. They’re seeing past this target both physically and mentally, because these two things are one in the same. The dance simply happens.
Wrong? Hmm, the proof is in your Point of Impact! Love Your WORK! You Got "Me Interested" in this Sport! Your English ROCKS! Have No fear! As a former Off Road Racer, I too know what it is to be Zoned in 100%! I would have fellow racers and others ask my about moves or key events from the race just raced. I had NO MEMORY of these events as my "INSTICTS" where 100% switched ON! My term for this Elevated Mental State IS "TUNNEL VISSION". I have had this same feeling in life or death Threatening fast paced events, I know the beginning and end, Nothing in the Middle?
I might argue that instinctive archery is. I started shooting instinctively at my first try I believe I developed the instinct itself. If I know where the target is I just point and shoot. 💪♥️🦊🎱
@@Jake420 Yeah, they come to the conclusion that humans do have instincts for archery. The title is just clickbait or is supposed to represent those people who have the wrong idea what is meant by instincts...
I taught people to become better FPS gamers back then. One concept I shared with my attendee's is "active aim" vs. "passive aim". The concept sounds pretty similar. Active aim is when you move your mouse consciously, and passive aim when you react instinctively. They are very different but both are important!
Very provoking to be so good at archery but not be able to speak so you can hear, regards a Swede ;) But interesting at 2.50, I have done quite a lot of thaiboxing and find I do best by not focusing on the opponent and not think, just do. That last bit sounded as a stupid starwars reference but Not it was! have to practise first... So impressive with both the skill and the research !!
Hello Lars Andersen Happy New Year to you! With your permission 3 questions 1. From what distance did you shoot the keyhole when you set the record in the Guinness book, such important information is missing everywhere. 2. Was the full version of the video saved when you set this record 3. To dispel the doubts of a huge number of professional archers, it will not be difficult for you to make a video of how three arrows hit a regular target from the same distance. I wish you creative success! I am writing to you via Google Translate
There is video of him speedshooting from 90m and hitting several targets in a row, joking it is not easily repeatable, he then repeats it! He hits strings from long distance!!! He is super accurate while speed shooting, while in motion... He has been training full-time for decades!!!
I'm a professional dancer/teacher and (since age 11 dancing and 18 started teaching (26 yrs as a pro) . I teach the same concept with various examples. Example 1 following is a real time reflexive response to a stimulus within conditioned parameters i. e. A great Salsa dancer won't translate to a great waltz dancer because we've changed the parameters and input as well as the conditioned reactions. 2. The best following happens when you remove other senses. It's exceptionally common to follow with eyes shut and/or no music to work on connection i. e. Lead/follow action/reaction nuances, trouble shoot, or when dealing with complexity. By removing outside/other stimulus we focus on feel. 3. Pitchers throw baseballs as fast as the mind processes data, meaning the batter can't think analytically and adjust in that time. They see the pitch and react based on conditioned reflexive response to repetitive stimulus. In layman's terms they read the pitch and act but it's only an 1/8 of a second, literally the speed of blinking as the ball travels. 4. "Animals" outperform us. locusts can outmaneuver the best combat pilots. Locust lack a complex brain and only process visual data, yet can fly in swarm of a million inches from one another in three dimensional space with constant shifting and not collide with each other. When I truly understood the implications of that, it was huge! They didn't "think" about reacting to the stimulus, they just reacted real-time. and that made them better pilots then the smartest humans, it changed my entire mindset of training. This is the video that blew my mind, yes it's a locust watching star wars and it's huge scientifically vimeo.com/59694595 5 I suddenly realized that in my years of training as a competitive fighter (my other great love), what I had actually done was trained myself to react by conditioning repetitive actions to various stimulus, and in many ways wasn't actually thinking, but rather reacting. This is why if you put someone in a ring and have them spar everyday for a month and have them fight someone who has been training for a year punching bags and doing drills and jumping rope and punching mitts but not actually sparring, they will demolish them. All of those drills are static and lack dynamic action/reaction and don't require instinctive reflexive response that's conditioned through exterior stimulus. Great video, I tell clients all the time " there is anatomy,/physiology (build/ability), kinesiology/physics (understanding the mechanics), action/reaction (training via rigor the response to stimulus), ability (mentally/work ethic), AND everything else is art😂 .
Also after 8:04 I went outside immediately in the dead of night and tried putting the key in my cars ignition and after analyzing the angle, height, depth via feel, I could immediately see a marked improvement in accuracy, even in complete darkness. Also super cool that Lars is humble and always willing to evaluate and learn
I love your shooting but this is really just a semantic argument, Instinctive means: (of a person) doing or being a specified thing apparently naturally or automatically. "Apparently naturally". Instinctive doesn't just mean the abilities you were born with, it can mean something that appears natural or automatic whether it comes from training or not, Instinctive Archery as a term to describe Lars style of Archery works just fine. Now there is another kind of Archery I've come across and its not only limited to one style. I call it Pedantic Archery and theres are quite a few folks out there that don't even know that they do it. ;) I always watch your videos Lars, in fact I instinctively click on them as soon as they're on my feed. Keep up the awesome work :)
Honestly... I think I may have an answer.. maybe... Instead of calling it Instinctive Archery Lars... I believe what YOU DO... is REFLEXIVE. . . ARCHERY... It makes sense I believe. Reflexive Archery... which is still UNHEARD OF, EXTREMELY impressive... and very unique
They themselves conclude that humans have instincts for archery... The video is more about the journey of understanding what they actually mean... Opinions are changed and then go back to what they were at the beginning with a better understanding of what instincts are.
As long as i know aiming on Instinctive archery context are since you see the object/target and then draw your bow and release it with full of your heart, means dont ever let go our target, keep the target on your eyes sight, not when we start draw bow then aiming during anchoring
Like your comment at minute 2:31. That fits my theory of distracting oneself a bit to hit! 👍 How you call intuitive shooting doesn't really matter, as long as you do not use a sight or anything the like.
Its basic memory training, nothing else. Once the skill is locked in its contextual memory. Then the brain moves the access so it becomes what people call automatic and reflexive. You lose the learning process and forget the work previously. Now you can do.
19:27... I find it fascinating that JES, is trained/ conditioned, so deeply, in his style of competitive archery, that he says "THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BOW", to Lars. but , to lars, It is his style which made the world record and continues to make records. To me , this labelling of "WRONG SIDE" of the Bow, is just another example of the limited , and fixed style of Competitive archery , that makes it unappealing to me. Competitive Archery (Olympic style/ Trad style/ Competition style fixed systems with its rules and regulations , limits its self and judges anything different. I've learned in my own practice routine and from researching other ancient archery styles...that the "WRONG" side, has a purpose.... 1) it is faster to load from the outside of the bow. 2) The Arrow shaft & fletching , apon release will give you more friction interference, if you shot above your knuckes (thumb & thumb muscles + first finger) the RIGHT SIDE , than it does above your first finger (Proximal phalnx).. 3) Arm string slapping happens less with the WRONG SIDE than it does with RIGHT SIDE, when executing the arrow with a bow push movement, and follow through, in speed shooting.
Once again, Lars has retroactively made all the early haters look even dumber. He is so open-minded, so reason and evidence based, so not a hater of traditional archery, so humble. Well done sir.
Before I watch another second of this video I want to thank you for making the effort to speak english. It is very much appreciated.
Great Point! Pun intended, but 100% appreciative 👍🏽
I was 43 seconds in when your comment caught my eye, pause, read remaining comment... I concur. Discovered Lars several years ago while trying to construct my first ever bow and arrows. Been shooting since childhood, archery then hunting.
Lars brought back my love for the bow and arrow, and opened my eyes to the ancient old/Lars proven techniques! Life is wonderful again at 69!
Yes, it really makes me realize how ignorant I am and haven’t put time into learning a secondary language. It was nice to listen to and also made me think a minute about what their intended definition of “darling” was.
The most passive-aggressive sht of today 💀
@@bio-garbage I didn't think it was passive aggressive. Nice name lol
So instinctive archery is basically a misnomer; its actually reflexive archery! What a wonderfully wholesome conversation!
Not a misnomer exactly. They get the wrong idea when reading the dictionary definition. Instincts do not make you a perfect archer without practice any more than they make you the fastest runner or the best at throwing things without practice. They later conclude, in this video, that humans do have instincts for archery. All instinctual behavior can get better or worse through habits and practice. I would just call it archery and have a different name for the modern target shooting style with rigid body mechanics. All other sports is done in this way of trying to forget the body mechanics and execute without conscious thought. We do not call it instinctive or reflexive soccer, just soccer. The modern target shooting style is the weird one that is not normal archery. Old archery traditions do not teach rigid body mechanics. They teach principles and lots of practice and to use both sides as equally as possible to avoid long term injury... The modern target shooting style really is a modern style and a tiny niche in the history of archery...
@@0ooTheMAXXoo0 excellent comment.
It's just playing with definitions. Most archers consider "instinctive archery" to be like throwing a ball or playing tennis, and such. Nobody claims you don't need to practice in order to hit.
@@TrickinNinja Dennis was right the first time. What that person is describing is procedural memory, which is completely different from instinct. The common name for it is "muscle memory," but that can lead to the false impression that it's stored in the muscles. It's a thing the brain does to simplify motor skills that it's learned to the point where you no longer need to think about them.
@@TheLithp I would not be at all surprised if there are actually some lower level elements of the memory in the muscles. We already know it exists in the spine for reflexes, and that subconscious processing takes place all throughout the neural system, especially in the gut (where the "gut feeling" comes from- it's aggregating information that your conscious mind never receives). It would make perfect sense to have the most fundamental subroutines stored in/near the location they are actually needed rather than needlessly dealing with the lag time of communicating all the way back to the brain for every aspect.
Thank you lars, It is refreshing to hear someone actually change their mind.
This is wonderful.
Lars and the other archer both say humans obviously have instincts for archery towards the end of this video, just like evolutionary biologists and pretty much all archery traditions have been saying. Learning, training, getting better is part of most instincts in all animals. He just got confused by that dictionary definition that he misunderstood. Some humans are obviously better than others at throwing a rock, even at walking or running or talking.. All things that are instinctual. Birds take time and effort to get good at flying even when they are strong enough to do so and some individuals are far better at flying than others of the same species... The fact that you can get better at a skill does not mean that it is not instinctual...
Ditto. Big thanks to both for taking the difficult leap for our benefit.
I just assumed you were using the English word instinctive to describe Reflexive shooting. Figured it was a language problem. You are directionally correct
Yeah, they are definitely confused about what instincts mean. In the video they come to the conclusion that humans do have instincts for archery. That training makes you better is the same for all instincts so they said nothing against the notion of instinctive archery...
A genius who has the size to question himself - wonderful!
Hey Lars, I've been following you for a long time now even though I haven't tried archery once in my life because your videos are so interesting and informative. Firstly I would like to thank you both for making such an effort to speak English for your audience too even though you could speak Danish and talk much easier!
It is really amazing to see how well you trained your body and muscle memory through years to become this good with a non-professional bow and arrow. Seeing Jes breaking down your learned and habitualized methods of archery and explaining what you are doing unconsciously really shows archery is a skill that can be honed to extremes to be almost "instinctiual."
Seeing you two talk about archery as "trained muscle memory" vs "more conscious and methodological process" is amazing as we get to see two different perpectives of two very good archers.
Also what caught my attention is how you looked at Jes as he was explaining the methods to you. It is awesome to see you look so excited as you're still so eager to learn more about archery even though you're already so well at it and it reflects in your videos too!
Thank you for making this video once again. It was an amazing watch. And happy new years!
You should give it a go Cem, I recently went to try archery for the first time last weekend and fell in love with the sport instantly. I, just like you, had been watching archery on TH-cam on and off for years and decided to randomly go on my own (as I don't have any friends)... and I'm so glad I did as its so much fun. I hope you're able to give it a try sometime my friend, as if you enjoy watching it... then I'm sure you'll love doing it.
pick up a bow! Please.
Yes God bless you two for deliberately slowing down your minds in order to have these conversations in English so that we can learn so much from you. Thank you for your patience, generosity, and understanding, it is greatly appreciated.
Lars Andersen does what he usually does. Something completely impossible. Something you would see in a Hollywood movie and scoff at for being unrealistic. In this case he shoots arrows through a keyhole seven times in a row and breaks the world record. Then he sits down with a professional archer and lets him try at less than half the distance. The professional archer misses the target-dish three times in a row.
Before I watched this movie I pondered whether Lars is from another planet. Now I'm wondering if he's from the another age.
His nervous structure is clearly different from a person who likes to explain everything in logic and science.
Maybe he's an elf!
@@electrominded8372 his eyes are a little slant. Maybe it helps him aim?
Lol ya ikr, and arrow has no fletching, is wrong spine and not completely straight, wtf lars.
Good to know Lars learned archery in his mid-thirties . Archery is learned behavior as is throwing a rock , using a sling or an atlatl , the inborne or instinctive aspect is the ability for our brains to quickly learn from the first period of shooting or throwing experience and quickly compensate for distance to the target with all the variables that seems to be exclusive to humans. Glad they briefly showed the clip of the young women who just after a few hours of archery practice went from complete beginners to hitting things out of the air .
This video makes me feel very fortunate. Two of arguably the best shooters of our time pouring out golden information and thought process for 20 minutes about our sport. Thank you guys Happy New Year, huge fan
I'm really happy that you're studying the interrelationship between the conscious mind and the subconscious and their effects on aiming and manual skills. I'm sitting here with a young Danish friend who used my heavy old compound bow some 3 to 4 years ago and loosed perhaps 100 arrows, all at a range of around 10m. Six weeks ago he took the same bow and shot it at a distance of some 35-40m - the first six arrows were in perfect grouping - about 15cm, from then on it was terrible (sometimes even missing the 1.5 x 1.5m butt). The thing is I have taught a lot of manual skills to a lot of people and knew basically what would happen, though the extremity of it surprised me: It's nice to have some measurement of the effect of inbuilt skill or muscle memory. I would say that for the first three days skills at almost anything will start reasonably good and get worse over three days, then they get suddenly far better in one jump, and then changes are small after that. But I will take care to measure the effect in future. I know from running a business some years ago that my subconscious mind could tell me in my sleep exactly what materials to buy for a complex project with thousands of variables and measurements (I would wake up and write them down, these estimations were perfect every time and reduced waste to almost zero and led to a very high efficiency and so high profitability) whereas my conscious mind could not get even close to this. If workers asked me to deviate from my subconsciously formed plan, it would not work so well, but if I stuck to the plan stubbornly it would end up 'perfect'. This was frustrating for workers/others around me as they often had good arguments at the time for doing what looked like a good alternative, and only people I had worked with a long time were ok with it as it could easily seem arrogant if they didn't know me. The whole topic really interests me and you could take research to an entire next level with your years of experience and skill and teaching. Thanks for doing so many videos in English and doing your best to show us your findings, it's really appreciated: I remember you struggling at the start. Mange tak og rigtige go' førnøjelser.
The whole 1) start out good, 2) go downhill, 3) stay there for a while and finally 4) a sudden improvement, is definitely something I've seen happen with me. Something I need to keep reminding myself as I practice 🙂
Too long didn't read
@@dungeonmaster6292You should read more you may then be not so stupid.
@@foloeel thank you
This was very refreshing. Two experts maturely sharing and listening/thinking. Learning is so exciting, even just to witness.
Oh you're so right, learning is the best :)
And yes, Jes Lysgaard and Lars Andersen 100% makes it even more fun with the passion, and especially practical mastery, they display
But it should be said they aren't 'experts', Jes is a sports coach and writer by profession, while Lars is actually an art painter and writer(which in itself is pretty amazing)
The fact of the matter is archery is indeed instinctive, since our ancestors evolved this uncommon ability roughly two million years ago as a way of improving their/our hunting prowess
And don't take it from me, I'm not just another Danish dude who's passionate about history and learning, take it from the science people :)
Lars has even been a guest on a science show on Danish national TV, about how the human body evolved unique throwing skills 2 million years ago, but that's show is in Danish, so lol xD
Lars really is a good example of not being afraid to be wrong about stuff, and constantly learn new stuff, but he's not overly concerned, I think, with human anatomy and it's evolution
None scholea sed vita descimus
(We don't learn for school but for life)
:)
scholar.harvard.edu/ntroach/evolution-throwing
this is really just a matter of semantics, whether you call it 'instinctive' or reflexive archery or whatever you want, it amounts to the same thing. Good discussion.
100% I did enjoy the video but it is all a bit silly...
Yeah I would think they refer to the same thing.
Yeah, colloquially, the two words are thought of and used interchangeably.
It's only the strictest of dictionary definitions that varies the meaning, which most people neither know or care about.
That said, because English is a second language to them both, it's understandable that one or the other could hear the word "instinctive" and then look up the definition and go "Well, that's not what's happening!"
So I get why they had the discussion, and why they could want to make a video to clear the air.
14:31...I do believe so...I once read that humans have a natural ability to accurately point the index finger at a target from around 1-200m(distance is from memory) It makes sense seeing as pointing in the direction of either a threat or a resource surely predates verbal communication and projectile weapons... A rifle or a bow is held at arms length along the line of sight in exactly the same way that a finger is pointed. There is a instinctive archer in all of us even if the archery isn't truly instinctive.
This is amazing, Loved your conversations
Not only have they correctly identified the unconscious process of muscle memory for consistent shooting, but they were both able to communicate that very well in English!!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
As with anything that is spot on and mostly truthful, this is not going to be recieved by a lot of people that have calcified themselves into believing the contrary notion that instinctive archery exists.
You two should rethink what you've been programmed to believe about how old mankind really is, as the entire earth was made about six thousand years ago and even the oldest writings we have were found to be about 4,000 years ago, about the time of the confounding of the languages at Mesopotamia (Shinar).
But we are living in a world that has so much deception, people genuinely hate the truth because lies are what they've built their entire worldview up on.
Keep em coming Lars!!!! This was great
In the sense that we have instincts that makes it easy to learn archery, like throwing a rock or , obviously this exists... Science, evolutionary biology, there are published papers on this... This guy is talking about how we aim, getting better through training... Not about whether or not humans have instincts for archery... We still take a long time to learn to walk and run and throw a rock to hit a target, and only a few are training enough to do special things with their running or jumping or throwing. Would you say humans have no instincts for walking or running? for throwing a rock? Nothing in this video says anything against instinctive archery. They are just confused about the terminology...
@@0ooTheMAXXoo0 its definitely more muscle memory than instinct, learning to walk absolutely requires much practice given previous input and definitely throwing is learned based on experience and is object and hand specific. archers always reference something when shooting it may be the arrow, the bow, the hand. whether they make it a dedicated conscious effort is really the argument, some call it instinctive but i agree its a silly term but the mind does seem to get in the way of quite a few folks when shooting.
Isn't muscle memory basically instinctive? You're shooting almost on reflex without complex thinking.
@@azure4100 you just answered your own question. It's reflex shooting, not instinctive. Did you watch the whole video? It's absolutely a matter of the semantics of the word. Words have meanings
@@azure4100 i dont really see it that way, folks are born with instincts, they are not learned, reflex is maybe closer to what people mean most of the time but people just have been using that term to describe lower level conscious effort or maybe even preconscious. true reflex is involuntary and thats definitely not what you want when lobbing pointy sticks towards other things. safe effective archery is always intentional, what you choose to focus on is personal based on data over time with what works for you based on your goals. i go through a shot process where i actively say in my mind "form, focus, follow through", make sure my body feels right, i stare as intensely as i can at the smallest part of my target, and i make sure my body ends up in as close to my final form as to increase repeatability. i wouldnt say thats anywhere near instinctive but some folks have argued with me that its instinctive, i just dont how all the steps that i or others do can be misconstrued as such or even a reflex.
To me it is really interesting to follow your conversation because not only did you identified the origins and tools Lars' archery method uses but also compared it to traditional archery.
I am so thankful for this information and the input you gave because I myself would love to improve my archery skills but unfortunally I'm living not only too far away for a teaching lesson but also there might be no opportunity to get tought by you, too.
It would be so interesting to have a quick video of you, Lars, explaining how your trainees start to learn your archery style to get even more into it.
The way Lars does it is the traditional way. The modern target shooting way is more modern...
I'm completely unaware of who these people are. But I just sat here for the last half hour or so and listen to some of the best conversation I've ever heard in my life. Kudos y'all. Keep up the good work You are absolute spirits of the earth!
Many thanks to both of you, first for taking the time, second for discussing in english and third for being so open!
I agree that somehow we may have inherited something about archery from our ancestors. I have no other explanation why kid's adopt to archery that easy. When I was a kid, I did not have one single string slap on my forearm, only when I started as a grown up, started thinking about everything that happened the first time. I think as long as you are not thinking, you have a good chance to be better, to use what has been handed over from long gone archers.
You're the "man" Lars! Thanx for generous sharing of your experiences with archery!
Well, that's just semantics. Perhaps the right word for your extraordinary style Lars, is "intuitive"
Yeah, they conclude that, like scientists have been saying, humans do have instincts related to archery. They seem to be confused in thinking that it is not instinctual if you can get better at it through practice. Even breathing can be done better or worse due to habits and exercise... One sparrow will be way more agile at flying maneuvers than another sparrow, just due to how they used their instincts in practice...
I am not an archer but as a shot gun shooter I find this fascinating. Sometimes when I am shooting well it seems so easy that I wonder how I can ever miss and then I do. Many people quip that thinking is contrary to good shooting. I think of old documentaries I have seen where young hunter gathers start by shooting things with a bow from three feet away. They can immediately get close enough to the target to see how they are shooting and so immediately begin to construct an organic connection with the bow. Maybe a rule for learning is to never be further away than you can usually hit the target? I am going to try it. Fascinating.. Thanks so much for doing this in English. So thought provoking.
Incredible conversation you guys 😃
A fascinating conversation between exceptional people 🙏
I've done a few sports and I have always performed best when actually not thinking too much about what I'm doing and instead becoming one mind and body and just kind of letting it happen , obviously practicing for many hours is necessary but there does become a point when the two things just seems to click .
Wow. Appreciation for putting in the effort to relay the message in English. Thank you.
Fantastic insight. Thank you for sharing your experience.
Thank You : both of you have made the world a better place.
As a Norwegian it's easier for me to understand Danish than Swedish. The Copenhagen or Jylland dialects are pretty straight forward :)
Been waiting a long time for a video like this. Thanks to both of you!
Thank you gentlemen for this fabulous talk. When I started archery, I wanted to find this way of the mind. I stuck with shooting as one would a basketball- focus on the target and learn and refine the movements to be a better shot.
It takes alot of practice, but it does work. I have noticed the bit about "properly" distracting ones self just enough to not allow the louder part of the mind to drown out the silent master lurking beneath...
Keep exploring.
you BOTH have taken the time to program your "biocomputer" to be accurate and create precise placement of arrows
the more you program it the better and faster it gets
breathing ... communitation... reproduction are instinctive
wonderful watching you two share
Talking is instinctive, you still gotta learn a lot of a language to be understood by others. Walking or running is instinctual but practice make one human twice as fast as another... One sparrow is way more agile than another because of their practical experience. Both obviously have instincts for flying... The archers in this video both come to the conclusion that humans have instincts for archery... They are confused because they think that any skill where you can get better through practice is not an instinct even though even breathing can be better or worse through habits and practice...
Have often heard the phrase, "after a while it becomes instinctive".😀
All instincts can be refined with practice... Instincts do not mean the behavior is perfected without training... If you look at a bunch of sparrows, some will be way more agile than others... Are you saying flying is not instinctive for birds because practice and life experience can make one individual better? In this very video they come to the conclusion that humans do have instincts for archery... It starts about 3/4 of the way in.... They are just trying to get clicks with the "Instinctive archery does not exist", "I have changed my mind" bit... That was the revelation about halfway through the video, then, about 3/4 of the way through the video they both conclude that humans do have instincts for archery and that training makes you better, just like with talking, or walking, or running, or throwing a rock, or with flying in birds...
@@0ooTheMAXXoo0 I agree with all you say, I wasn't trying to make any point, just recalling that I have heard that phrase a lot over the years. Flying is an instinct for a bird, and as you say, it has to be practised to hone the skill. And hunting would be an instinct for us, but would still require practise to be good at it, whether using a spear, sling or bow.
I suppose the phrase I mentioned, means, whatever we do, if we practise it enough, it almost becomes instinctive, so we don't have to think about it.
I do think Lars is exceptional though, he has trained an awful lot, but even so, his skill is amazing.. Truly showing what some of us are capable of, and how amazingly God designed the human body, and put those instincts in us . 😀
@@pauln7422 That’s like the phrase "it's only a theory." It may be common, but in a scientific sense, it's wrong. The proper term for skills that become automated with practice is procedural memory.
So, am I really saying that birds don't have a flight instinct? Well, yeah. That may sound counterintuitive, but if you really break it down, what they do is reflexively flap their wings & learn from a combination of parenting & trial-by-error how to fly. It's not just a matter of getting better: Birds that are not taught will not be able to fly. It would be like saying we have an instinct for English, which is obviously wrong. What we have is mechanisms that make language easier to learn, just like we have procedural memory to pick up new skills.
@@TheLithp 😀see what your saying.
When he mentioned reflexes, that brought up a good point. I think "Reflexive Shooting" would be a better name for it.
No less impressive!
I have a friend who is freakishly good with a bow and arrow. As a kid, he was also an extremely talented baseball pitcher who pitched his little league team all the way to victory at the little league world series. I suspect it isn't a coincidence that he can shoot a bow freakishly accurately and also throw baseballs accurately at ridiculously high speeds. I'm sure part of the reason he can do both of these things as well as he can is down to training and intuition developed through practice, but training and practice alone can't explain why he is so much better at these activities than other people, even when they've had as much training and practice as he has. Clearly, he was born with a brain that has a particularly well tuned ballistics computer built into it. To the extent that natural talent is the reason for his unusual skill, I think it would be fair to say that he has a well developed instinct for hitting things he's aiming at with projectiles he launches, whether it's an arrow from a bow or a ball that he throws.
P.S. My friend could probably have become a professional baseball pitcher had his little league coach not pressured him to throw curve balls when he was too young to do so safely. My friend's pitching career ended prematurely when the growth plate on one of the bones of his pitching arm ripped off while he was pitching a little league game.
Thanks for this little story you shared here! I think you described certrain key-elements to this mystery very well. But there is more to it then JUST body or muscle memory... I'm convinced it has something to do with being convinced to hit and visualize it in your inner eye before shooting or doing something... we are going in derictions of "chi and magic" with this but yes BOTH EXISTS!
@@stianthijsen4784 For sure, just like some people are born with a better sense of smell than others, or are born smarter than others, some people are born with a natural ability to aim and hit things with projectiles much better than most people.
I enjoy greatly your informative archery videos! Thank you, thank you!
i'm no archer but shooting slingshots. The moment i release i "know" (feel) if i hit or not. Ever wondered what's behind this - you guys really gave a superb insight in your thoughts regarding this topic
the Zen of doing something , you stop worrying about hitting the target and just hit the target , empty mind . Takes practice to get there - enjoy the process
your muscle memory connect to your brain :P
similar with other skills that you have done hundred of thousands of times
One thing I've learned is that there are some memories that are "learned" before you are born. I call them inherited memories from great grand-parents or further back in history.
You discuss this in your video when you are talking in the woods.
Thanks for discussing it so others can learn as well.
The conclusion is that we do have instincts for archery and just like with walking or running or throwing a rock, training makes us better at the things we have instincts for.
Sir, it may not be instinctive by definition, but it is as close as one can get, I think that you are not just the fastest archer in the world but also the best, you have given me belief in myself and without you I would not be the archer I am today, thank you very much, sir
Very, very interesting discussion. Read Jes Lysgaards books in English and learn more. Jes Lysgaards last book from december 2022 tells the whole story (printed in Danish, but will probably be translated to English in the future!). I am a longbow archer (practicing for 40 years now) and have known Lars and Jes for some years now and have learned a lot from both. And from their videos. I was surprised learning that Lars has been convinced by Jes about instinctive shooting.
Greetings from John Merland
You make a valid point about the instinct shooting
Fantastic learning discussion. Thank you for sharing 🙇🏻♂️🏹
I love this! As a horseback archer I also have to practice this muscle memory - in a fast canter there is no time to think 😊
Fascinating, and i was just reading a book discussing the very same topic.
Thank you
Lars Andersen you're a LEGEND! Keep it up and ignore the haters if you have any - You and Kassai are my favorite archers with PURE skill. Modern archery like most things today is nothing but assistance handicap that humans LOVE, handicap.
Historical Archery like many historical things are nothing but pure skill and should be treasures in this lazy modern society we live in.
Keep uploading more! And in my opinion, it's all connected to a very personal space in your brain when it comes to accuracy and soul, it's what they practise a lot in Kyodo. It's an extremely spiritual mental exercise - Archery.
// JL
Very new to archery - absolutely grateful for your knowledge and sharing it with us! Thank you so much! I loved watching you two have these mental gymnastics over what is and what isn't instinctive archery! Can't wait to shoot like both of you. (I now have the itch to modify my compound bow like Lars did in the armour shooting!)
When instinctive means present from birth onwards, this is definitely not enough to explain Lars archery. But there is definitely a difference between his and tournament archery. It's the difference between analytic and intuitive. Thinking analytically means to break the problem down in parts. Thinking intuitively means solving everything in one step by sorting the neural input inside a space of previously experienced inputs. So maybe intuitive archery is the better word.
Because of you Lars, I went and bought a Grozer Csaba Biocomposite Hun bow. I tried to do instinctive archery with a thumb release technique. I wanted to learn to do rapid shooting.
I suck. Lol. It's very hard and way more inaccurate compared to my compound bow. But I'm still keen to learn and keen trying. I honestly don't know how to aim
Instinctive, Intuitive, Reflexive, Traditional, etc.
In the end it's basically the same thing, just a matter of precise language and definitions. It requires practice, but is still rather intuitive.
Yes, you can see these rituals in athletes often. They will say a prayer, touch an amulet, make a few special steps before their attempts (e.g. free throw in basketball). They trigger something in the brain by doing certain actions. Almost like entering a password to login and activate "performance mode". It's fire and forget from there.
sign ofa great man!
much luv to both of u!
🤘😎🤘
The whole conversation between them two, its sounds like a conversation that would have taken place 1000 years ago between two archers. . 💯😎👍🏼
Extremely interesting video, and excellent English too. Thanks!
I very much enjoyed your video and your very advanced conversation - openminded and grown-up - something which is becoming rarer and rarer nowadays. I would - have ? - considered myself an instinctive shooter too. I'm into archery for more than 30 years now (I'm 62 years old). Given your thoughts maybe there should be another expression for "our" style of shooting, where you look at the target and "think" the arrow there. The expression I would suggest would be Subconscious Shooting. As a matter of fact I live in Vienna - the city of Sigmund Freud, therefore it is only fitting to make such a suggestion. In German we would call it: Unterbewußtes Bogenschießen. 🙂
This seems quite similar to the concept of "alignment" in pistol shooting, where pistol shooters take off their sights entirely and learn to accurately "point" the pistol with proprioception.
No arguing with results. Amazing stuff guys
Instinkts and intuitive movements and reflexes are directly connected.
I used to call it „intuitive archery“ for me, but maybe the better term is „subconscious aiming“. My question is: how can I get there without getting stuck in conscious aiming techniques like (for example) gapshooting. Should I train these techniques and then try to „forget“ about them again? Thanks for your Inspiration!
a realy good question. I have to rewatch all the larsandersen videos to answer this ;o)
Already liking the beginning. Kamelåså!
I’ve been thinking instinctive archery is the wrong term for some time now. Thank you for this video and sharing the information!
Genetic memory is a thing we are born with (thus instinctual) and archery has been with us for at least 100 000 years.
Totally agree with the innate 60,000 year phenomenon, when you coach some beginners you can feel it.
What I want to know is 4:47 did Lars just bullseye 🎯 that?
The are 2 archers
Lars and Tim Wells period!!!
Nice vid Lars greating
South Africa
Love to see friendly contest between these two
I like to call it Kinesthetic archery (also often called muscle memory at least in part). Kinesthetics learning and practice is when you are using your muscles and your body to tell the story, and not when setting up a "perfect shot" for practice. Your muscles tell your brain how hard they are working and where they are in space (based on feel and motion). Almost all sportsmen of every type (futbol, football, basketball, etc.) eventually benefit from this kenesthic feedback, and intentional practice of kinesthetics helps speed it along. It does however make you seem clumsy early in the process, but it quickly begins to feel good when you reach even a low level of competency. Knowing you can aim without even looking and hit a man sized target 20 feet away is something to feel quite chuffed about.
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us.
Is it possible that you use "intuitive archery"? - and that this intuition is learned through practice and supported by genetic memory instincts which have been developing a bit during the last 50.000 years?
So when you shoot you build on your practice but dont have to think about aiming because you pushed your aiming from the act of thinking to the acts of remembering and intuition. That way you achieve your archery speed?
Yes Intuitive would also work, however as one of the definitions of Instinct "a natural or intuitive way of acting or thinking." so does Instinct and Instinctive. so.. 🤷♂
Lars you are an inspiration.
I never had any doubt that Muscle Memory is immensely involved as with all motorskills, but i always actually perceived archery to be intuitive, rather than instinctive.
Much like throwing stones, isn´t really something you´re good at instinctively, but that can only be learned intuitively, since there is no way to "aim" a stonethrow, altho with archery that is not quite as disconnected.
You guys are great at speaking English. I couldn't imagine trying to learn Danish.
Happy New year, Lars!
I have been wondering, from what distance did you shoot the 7 arrows through the keyhole?
best shooters of our time 🏹
This concept is something I use in everyday life for everything. I let my subconscious mind control my body while my conscious mind focuses on something else. The subconscious mind is infinitely more powerful than the conscious mind and I find it builds muscle memory for almost everything I do. From working with my hands to walking through a dark house at night and knowing where everything is.
The instinctive part you talked about which we learned through our ancestors - I think this is not concerning archery only, but using tools with our hands, with our eyes and so on. We maybe have a genetical advantage on understanding different tools in general. That might mean if we know what a tool (like a bow) or a screw driver is made for, we can look at it and already have an idea how it works, without ever receiving an explanation from somebody else.
I love the concept of reflex archery... The one thing Im still very intruiged about is the feeling of a target... Like how one actually feels a target and knows exactly where to shoot when and how to hit what... I dunno if thats a reflex or how that works but I heard a bunch of people talk about that and during my research for a video game Im writing I stumbled over this in older texts... Either way Lars is probably the best source for Archery tricks when it comes to explanations... Taught me so much and Im excited how the stuff I learned from him will pan out in my game when I bought all the assets...
I have to show this video to some of my colleagues at the archery club! I've been shooting since 2021 and the first thing I said is that instinctive shooting doesn't exist! all types (including Lars') are trained. Like an ATP tennis player who are so precise without having the ball in hand, like walking or running in the forest without knowing the way and yet not tripping! Thanks for the confirmation and the explanation.
I don't mind he speaks with his mother tongue as long there's subtitle but I appreciate his effort
Lars you are so talented congratz
Lars amazing as always 🙏
Hello, Friends,
I have started shooting my bow “arrow wrong side”. I am right handed and left eye dominant. Is it more important to shoot with my dominant hand for knocking and release, or eye for target alignment ?
Haha! Both my bows are right handed so I had to switch to left handed to shoot them wrong side, with thumb ring, what fun!
Thank you, Kenny
Ever heard the term "Instinctive Table tennis" Its eye, hand, body coordination. In any case we can be sure Lars would be good at Table tennis too.
You'll be amazed by the tricks some table tennis players can do. And the way I see it, Lars is simply doing the same thing. The bow & arrows are an extension of his mind and body.
Modern archery seams rigid in form by comparison. They pull to a fixed length and shoots the arrow with the same speed and aim to compensate for distance.
Its a precise and repeatable method but it can't be used to replicate what Lars does because their aiming and muscle memory is tied to a certain draw length.
Awesome, Thanks for sharing. Anyone have any idea which documentary they're referencing when talking about the genetic memory with projectile/thrown weapons?
In my opinion, instinctive means you don't need to learn it, it's in your genes. You can refine and automate it. I think everyone needs to learn to shoot with archery. Thank you very much for this video.
When I shoot … I call it “eye point “ , where I focus what I am shooting at … the arrow goes. It lasts about one full second from the ready position.
Oh but using your instinct doesnt mean that things happen out of magic, essentially means to let your mechanical memory to take over an action. When you do something new, you have to focus and try to put skills to work in order to accomplish what you are trying to do.
When you do something that you already did a million times even if this time is much mire complicated, often is easy to not overthink but just do it.
About the ancient or genetic thing that make humans good archers, yes is what humans do, we are made with an exceptional eye-hand-target coordination, so you dont have to study much to learn how to throw anything, im sure if you give a javelin to someone that has never seen how to throw a javelin, eventually he will figure out something close to the actual technique.
The question of whether there is a target point isn’t what defines instinct shooting. The question is how is this target perceived by the archer? Is it a destination, a separate conclusion to a multi stage process? The afterlife to a life? Or is it all part of one fluid thing? One fluid existence, a dance that the predator and prey are both taking part in, fully aware that they’ll dance this dance forever. Through this lens, there’s never a need for a separate action known as “aiming”, because the target isn’t the point. They’re seeing past this target both physically and mentally, because these two things are one in the same. The dance simply happens.
Wrong? Hmm, the proof is in your Point of Impact! Love Your WORK! You Got "Me Interested" in this Sport! Your English ROCKS! Have No fear!
As a former Off Road Racer, I too know what it is to be Zoned in 100%! I would have fellow racers and others ask my about moves or key events from the race just raced. I had NO MEMORY of these events as my "INSTICTS" where 100% switched ON! My term for this Elevated Mental State IS "TUNNEL VISSION". I have had this same feeling in life or death Threatening fast paced events, I know the beginning and end, Nothing in the Middle?
I might argue that instinctive archery is. I started shooting instinctively at my first try I believe I developed the instinct itself. If I know where the target is I just point and shoot. 💪♥️🦊🎱
@@Jake420 Yeah, they come to the conclusion that humans do have instincts for archery. The title is just clickbait or is supposed to represent those people who have the wrong idea what is meant by instincts...
I taught people to become better FPS gamers back then. One concept I shared with my attendee's is "active aim" vs. "passive aim". The concept sounds pretty similar.
Active aim is when you move your mouse consciously, and passive aim when you react instinctively. They are very different but both are important!
Very provoking to be so good at archery but not be able to speak so you can hear, regards a Swede ;) But interesting at 2.50, I have done quite a lot of thaiboxing and find I do best by not focusing on the opponent and not think, just do. That last bit sounded as a stupid starwars reference but Not it was! have to practise first... So impressive with both the skill and the research !!
Hello Lars Andersen Happy New Year to you! With your permission 3 questions
1. From what distance did you shoot the keyhole when you set the record in the Guinness book, such important information is missing everywhere.
2. Was the full version of the video saved when you set this record
3. To dispel the doubts of a huge number of professional archers, it will not be difficult for you to make a video of how three arrows hit a regular target from the same distance.
I wish you creative success!
I am writing to you via Google Translate
There is video of him speedshooting from 90m and hitting several targets in a row, joking it is not easily repeatable, he then repeats it! He hits strings from long distance!!! He is super accurate while speed shooting, while in motion... He has been training full-time for decades!!!
I'm a professional dancer/teacher and (since age 11 dancing and 18 started teaching (26 yrs as a pro) .
I teach the same concept with various examples.
Example 1 following is a real time reflexive response to a stimulus within conditioned parameters i. e. A great Salsa dancer won't translate to a great waltz dancer because we've changed the parameters and input as well as the conditioned reactions.
2. The best following happens when you remove other senses. It's exceptionally common to follow with eyes shut and/or no music to work on connection i. e. Lead/follow action/reaction nuances, trouble shoot, or when dealing with complexity. By removing outside/other stimulus we focus on feel.
3. Pitchers throw baseballs as fast as the mind processes data, meaning the batter can't think analytically and adjust in that time. They see the pitch and react based on conditioned reflexive response to repetitive stimulus. In layman's terms they read the pitch and act but it's only an 1/8 of a second, literally the speed of blinking as the ball travels.
4. "Animals" outperform us. locusts can outmaneuver the best combat pilots. Locust lack a complex brain and only process visual data, yet can fly in swarm of a million inches from one another in three dimensional space with constant shifting and not collide with each other. When I truly understood the implications of that, it was huge! They didn't "think" about reacting to the stimulus, they just reacted real-time. and that made them better pilots then the smartest humans, it changed my entire mindset of training. This is the video that blew my mind, yes it's a locust watching star wars and it's huge scientifically vimeo.com/59694595
5 I suddenly realized that in my years of training as a competitive fighter (my other great love), what I had actually done was trained myself to react by conditioning repetitive actions to various stimulus, and in many ways wasn't actually thinking, but rather reacting. This is why if you put someone in a ring and have them spar everyday for a month and have them fight someone who has been training for a year punching bags and doing drills and jumping rope and punching mitts but not actually sparring, they will demolish them. All of those drills are static and lack dynamic action/reaction and don't require instinctive reflexive response that's conditioned through exterior stimulus.
Great video, I tell clients all the time " there is anatomy,/physiology (build/ability), kinesiology/physics (understanding the mechanics), action/reaction (training via rigor the response to stimulus), ability (mentally/work ethic), AND everything else is art😂 .
Also after 8:04 I went outside immediately in the dead of night and tried putting the key in my cars ignition and after analyzing the angle, height, depth via feel, I could immediately see a marked improvement in accuracy, even in complete darkness.
Also super cool that Lars is humble and always willing to evaluate and learn
I love sparring in martial arts because I barely think in the moment, I feel very refreshed afterwards.
I love your shooting but this is really just a semantic argument, Instinctive means: (of a person) doing or being a specified thing apparently naturally or automatically. "Apparently naturally". Instinctive doesn't just mean the abilities you were born with, it can mean something that appears natural or automatic whether it comes from training or not, Instinctive Archery as a term to describe Lars style of Archery works just fine.
Now there is another kind of Archery I've come across and its not only limited to one style. I call it Pedantic Archery and theres are quite a few folks out there that don't even know that they do it. ;)
I always watch your videos Lars, in fact I instinctively click on them as soon as they're on my feed. Keep up the awesome work :)
Honestly... I think I may have an answer.. maybe...
Instead of calling it Instinctive Archery Lars... I believe what YOU DO... is REFLEXIVE. . . ARCHERY... It makes sense I believe.
Reflexive Archery... which is still UNHEARD OF, EXTREMELY impressive... and very unique
its all in how you define the word instinctive!
They themselves conclude that humans have instincts for archery... The video is more about the journey of understanding what they actually mean... Opinions are changed and then go back to what they were at the beginning with a better understanding of what instincts are.
As long as i know aiming on Instinctive archery context are since you see the object/target and then draw your bow and release it with full of your heart, means dont ever let go our target, keep the target on your eyes sight, not when we start draw bow then aiming during anchoring
Like your comment at minute 2:31. That fits my theory of distracting oneself a bit to hit! 👍
How you call intuitive shooting doesn't really matter, as long as you do not use a sight or anything the like.
Its basic memory training, nothing else.
Once the skill is locked in its contextual memory.
Then the brain moves the access so it becomes what people call automatic and reflexive.
You lose the learning process and forget the work previously.
Now you can do.
19:27... I find it fascinating that JES, is trained/ conditioned, so deeply, in his style of competitive archery, that he says "THE WRONG SIDE OF THE BOW", to Lars.
but , to lars, It is his style which made the world record and continues to make records.
To me , this labelling of "WRONG SIDE" of the Bow, is just another example of the limited , and fixed style of Competitive archery , that makes it unappealing to me. Competitive Archery (Olympic style/ Trad style/ Competition style fixed systems with its rules and regulations , limits its self and judges anything different.
I've learned in my own practice routine and from researching other ancient archery styles...that the "WRONG" side, has a purpose....
1) it is faster to load from the outside of the bow.
2) The Arrow shaft & fletching , apon release will give you more friction interference, if you shot above your knuckes (thumb & thumb muscles + first finger) the RIGHT SIDE , than it does above your first finger (Proximal phalnx)..
3) Arm string slapping happens less with the WRONG SIDE than it does with RIGHT SIDE, when executing the arrow with a bow push movement, and follow through, in speed shooting.
Hello, as a total beginner, what bow do you suggest for start practicing archery like you right and left handed?
No mind = true action
Chan / Zen Buddhist concepts.
Once again, Lars has retroactively made all the early haters look even dumber. He is so open-minded, so reason and evidence based, so not a hater of traditional archery, so humble. Well done sir.