It is hard not to see Echidna- a mother of monsters in Greek myth- as a distorted recollection of Tiamat, or a Hellenic reinterpretation. And of course, there are other fascinating parallels-battle in heaven, generational struggles of older gods with newer ones, and so on.
I wonder if it could go both ways too? That the Bull Men from the Tiamat myth are somehow a (very distorted) reference to the island of Minos? I am entirely too fuzzy on just when all these groups existed so, if it's a case of "Minos was a big deal waaaaaay after Babylon" then oh well But it's still interesting to think on it! Especially with the very human tendency to "other" a new culture, or a group that your tribe is going to make war on...do we know if that number 11 also shows up in the history of "we conquered these guys then those guys"?
It gets better when you realize that Echidna is the daughter of Gaia, the grandmother of all Olympian gods; indeed it seems that a fierce Great Mother goddess may have once dominated Mediterranean Europe and the Near East perhaps
@@manmoy4104, exactly- see my mention above about generational struggle. Ouranos, Cronos, Giants, Hundred-Handed Ones, Titans, Olympians. Gaia and Rhea and their ambiguous roles…and on down to Echidna. In Greek myth, it sometimes feels like the same story told three times in differing ways.
@@Beryllahawk While its hard to say when all these concepts came into being, in terms of when they were first written down Sumer and by association Sumerian mythology was alongside the old kingdom of Egypt the earliest civilizations to develop a system of writing. So at least in terms of documentation Tiamat is many thousands of years older. Regardless there clearly was and still is a very long history of cross pollination of ideas especially within the fertile crescent and Mediterranean which way predates the invention of writing.
I think you're right. A lot of people have no real sense of the scale of ancient history vs modern history. People often talk about, "Ancient Greeks" or even "Ancient Romans" when the Greeks and Romans are closer in time to us than to Babylon in its prime (or Sumer thousands of years before that). The entire Mediterranean, Egypt, Mesopotamia and reaching over all the way to India, were active trade networks, culturally entwined for literally thousands of years before Alexander united them politically. That the stories echo one another is no coincidence.
Now I know why Tiamat is the mother of dragons in DnD. It's really cool to learn more about old myths and legends outside of the standard Greek/Roman/European umbrella.
It would be cool to mention that the depiction of Ninurta with Anzu you showed here was for a long time believed by many to be a depiction of Marduk and Tiamat instead. Very cool Easter Egg
Yep many people get confused about that but in truth it's about ninurta fighting Anzu and here's an interesting fact ninurta beat a lot of minor God's, monster's, demon's after he killed them he made a chiarot out of their bodies He fought some weird stuff like a plam tree king fighter yes a palm tree 🌴 who can fight like warrior man what I would give to see this
I always had a problem with the identification of the serpentine Tiamat with an obviously non-serpentine (and male) monster. Good to know it wasn't me.
@@julietfischer5056 yeah. I've seen even books mess this up thinking that the moster depicted there is Tiamat and the god Marduk. If books are getting confused then it's ok for you to get confused too 😅
Apsu/Abzu's death story sounds very vaguely similar to that of Uranus and Cronos in the ancient Greek religion; wonder if there was an even older Mediterranean or Middle Eastern tale that gave rise to both stories
The oldest European would be proto Indo European, stories around the world are similar to this. I believe the term is chaoskampf, the storm god of creation destroying the sea god of chaos. It's been a while since I've looked it up.
Yeah, alot of these stories can be traced back to one place that then branch out to other countries. They will then form new stories with them, but will sometimes cross pollinate to borrow from each other. The Bible and Norse poetry does this exact same thing.
The God of the Hebrew Bible is identified with the storm as well and controls chaos, not with violence, but with His voice. He also slew the Leviathan. So it is also clear that this chaoskampf myth influenced Judaism and Christianity, but the Hebrews put a different spin on it.
I think she was probably a primordial water goddess, creator mother of all other gods during Sumerian or older times, but with the rise of Warrior Storm Gods, she became more of a monster to be slain and counqured to give way to creation like Joseph Campbell speculates.
Exactly, the whole "thunder god slaying a monstrous sea dragon" is a very common trope originating from Proto Indo-European myths, so it's possible that this Indo-European archetypal story "bled" into Akkadian/Babylonian culture at some point. Sumerians had nothing to do with the Indo-Europeans, they were completely separate.
@victorbrine2414 Even many East Asian myths contain stories of Thunder Gods slaying dragons or serpents, so the general idea may be a little older than Indo- or even Proto-Indo-Europeans. That or a story and it's variations maybe traveled along ancient trade and migration routes and was adapted by cultures all across Eurasia. Something to think about at least
I do not really buy this type of myth only originating in Indo-Europeans. Snakes are universally feared and lives more in equatorial regions. Akkadians and Babylonians were Semitic, much more warlike and patriarchal, it could have been just a corruption of mother goddess creation story.
What evidence do you have that ancient peoples believed in "gods" literally? None. They were nothing but fictions that had cultural significance, basically like Batman or Spiderman except with more deep significance to the culture
@@john.premose You do realize plenty of these ancient cultures were nice enough to write a lot of this stuff down for us, right? Ancient peoples believed in their gods the same way modern people believe in theirs.
Perhaps you can do "slimes" next, I wondered about it's origin, it seems to be a modern monster, not as modern as Sirenhead but still fairly modern but maybe I will be surprised and there is an older origin or inspiration for the creature.
Isn't The Blob movie the inspiration behind oozes and gelatinous cubes? But yeah, it would be cool to know about their cultural influences and symbolism
From what I understand, it starts with the blob, which is inspired by real life ameaba. Then the blob inspired some slime monsters in DND, which made it a staple fantasy monster.
If I remember correctly, the very first Final Fantasy was heavily inspired by Dungeons and Dragons, from the classes, to the spells, and to the monsters, so the Tiamat of both franchises being very similar is not surprising considering that one of them copied the (inaccurate) homework of the other.
The Tiamat of the first Final Fantasy game was presented as a multi-headed dragon and the strongest of the Elemental Fiends, whose domain was Air. Strange that, considering Tiamat of real historical mythology was a goddess of the sea (salt water).
Yeah this is sadly where most of the popular interpretations of Tiamat come from D&D generally has this tendency given its wide reach in popular culture with notoriously poor and even at times shockingly inconsistent worldbuilding.
Fate/Grand Order also has a depiction of Tiamat. She is humanoid with draconic/beastly figures, and is mostly a rampaging monster throughout her initial appearance. However, when she is slain in the story, she opens up about how she felt betrayed by her children and its honestly kind of sad. I wonder if other media gives her any form of depth aside from evil dragon/monster.
Very interesting, as usual. I actually studied Tiamat's old stories as part of Biblical studies. So, FUN FACT: In the first biblical creation myth (Genesis 1), god *creates* heaven and earth, but he does *not* create the two other parts: the waters and the chaos. In Hebrew, the state of the earth at genesis is "Tohu and Bohu" (tohu va'vohu). 'Tohu' is alleged to originate from Tiamat's name, while Bohu is from the Phoenician goddess of primordial darkness 'bohu'. In this way, the genesis creation myth is a direct theological challenge of the Hebrews/Israelites over their Phoenician and Babylonian contemporaries, in which god replaces mordukh as the power that defeats the primordial waters-chaos-darkness, splits open the waters, and creates from them the skies, and... the rivers! - Euphrates and Tigris (and two more; these come in the second creation myth). Both tohu and bohu are also primordial mothers, defeated by a "sky father", encoding deep into our culture the emergent of patriarchal order. (Also fun fact: "Yam", the cannite god of the sea, is also the hebrew word for sea.)
In the sumerian solar system TIAMAT was a planet shattered that supposedly formed earth 🌍🌎🌏 from half the remaining chunk that reformed closer to the sun 🤷🏼♂️, Great Red Dragon 🐲🐉 serpent 🐍⚕️ of old? There were giants in those days lots of petrified cooked rock 🪨 offerings in the twinkling of an 👁️🔮 reformed in the 7 days of creation 😁🤤😉 look petrified breasts 🌄 at the crack of dawn lol 😉. It's jack & ory tome 📜 biblical off shoots untold 😬🤔🧐🤐😶🌫️, it's Taboo apparently 🙉🙈🙊 monkey genetic 🧬⚕️💉☯️ transgenics & eugenics 😂🤣😭, no you can't follow that science dictates it's mandated as wrong think lol. They / them own the 🧬⚕️patent's to our continued transitioning ⚧️ reality 🙅🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️🙍🏼♂️, argh No!!! 😳😯😲😱🤢🤮😷 I don't like this chapter of the great reset story already I'm rather attached to my man ♂️🕺🏼 meat 🍖 don't put it in the grinder... (Too much critical thinking 🤔 to behold there 🧐???) How much of earth's history could have actually been built on the carcass of TIAMAT 👀👁️👁️ 😳😜🤪🫠🙃🥴😵💫😵 Boom 💥🔥 shanka 🤯🧠 🧔🏼♀️ 🤲🏻🙏🏻😇👼 saves 1/3rd the angels descended 33.3% leaving a remainder of 2/3rds 66.6% 👀😳 wee mental 🧝🏼♂️🤤 malfunction gymnastics 🤸🏼♂️ spinning ⚛️🧲🧭☯️ confucius utopian idiocracy built back butter 🧈🫠 let's all have a melt down in fraggle rock 🪨 lol... I am a legendary arse 🐎 🕳️ but my heart 💘❤️🩹💔❤️🔥 is inquisitive of actual events father 🧔🏼♀️🤲🏻🙏🏻😇👼 what mad times I have 🫡🌈😬, mental, totally bonkers, how poetic the justice ⚖️ is 🫠. Sorry if that was disturbing, welcome to my world 🤗 of over thinking everything, to the end times 🤷🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️, scratch that last think 🤔 happy thoughts 👍🏻😁👍🏻😋...
I searched for the actual meaning of Sa ma el lil ith, it's not good looks like a ⚧️ ancient demon of Chaos Theory. I've been driven mad & back again since lockdown started, a bit like Bilbo bagins & his 🐲🐉 story, sadly no bag of gold 🪙💰 has passed my palms 🤲🏻🙏🏻 yet...
In Fate/Grand Order she has both maternal and monstrous aspects, "Femme Fatale" and "Dragonoid" forms. And the community loves her, lots of players wish for years for Mom to be playable, me included.
Tiamat has definitely evolved in the Final Fantasy series. In FFXIV she is still a dragon, has only one head, but she is more mother than monster. I think it actually takes more from the original story too, as she loses her beloved (in this version it's Bahamut), and goes down a dark path that creates a facsimile of him that corrupts their children. She allows herself to be punished for this crime, but still cares deeply for all of her children.
Seeing how old Mesopotamian mythology essentially "translates" into modern myth and religion is really interesting to me. Thanks for this neat video, and congrats on becoming a mom, Dr. Zarka!
@@chengkuoklee5734 I'm pretty sure that's tengu, actually. There's a creature linked to comets in Chinese myth called tiangou, which was once the hunting hound of Houyi, the legendary archer and husband of Chang'e, the moon goddess. And at least one way of writing "tengu" can be as "heavenly dog." Kitsune, on the other hand, are part of a whole host of fox spirits of mischievous, sometimes malicious nature. There's also the Chinese huli jing, the kumiho of Korean legend, and the hồ ly tinh of Vietnamese myth. A fair number of Asian cultures seem to have some form of fox spirit that may be malicious, or even outright malevolent, but can sometimes be or become benevolent toward humans (as shown in how kitsune can ascend to become "tenko," literally "heavenly foxes", and potentially become servants of the god Inari).
Another pop culture reference: "Tiamat's Wrath", the penultimate novel in The Expanse series by James S. A. Corey. All of The Expanse novels have similar titles, making reference to historical, biblical, or mythical figures or places.
From what I remember reading in "The Elements Guide to Fantasy Creatures" she was both a mother deity and described as a dragon-like entity, but not defined merely as a "monster" and is linked with the monsters Echidna and Typhon who were said to be her children
In the game Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, you can summon Tiamat, and she is described as "The mother of dragons." She is, herself, an adorable dragon that incinerates your enemies.
I am currently writing a book with a dragon that is partly based on the Mesopotamian dragon, mostly avian in nature with a mix of feline/serpentine traits with the ability to carry all three silhouettes depending on his posture. Maybe I should find a way to incorporate her as some sort of primordial deity or a force of nature?
Tiamat's interpretation in game Fate Grand Order is quite interesting. Several comments have already mentioned this so you should definitely check it out.
I've always been fascinated with Echidna from Greek mythology. When I think "mother of all monsters", Echidna is the first that comes to mind. Tiamat is pretty cool, but I've come to associate her more with D&D, being the mother of all dragons.
Another video game appearance Tiamat makes is in the Shin Megami Tensei series. In those games her design incorporates both her monstrous and motherly/feminine qualities.
I like the Ancient Aliens interpretation of this story, that Tiamat was a planet. That certainly explains how all these people and events could exist within her womb. Mars was a moon of Tiamat (Mars = Marduk). Tiamat was destroyed, it's remains are now the asteroid belt. The "monsters" she "birthed" were alien life forms from the planet Tiamat and they fought a war with another alien culture on and above planet earth. It really all clicks together rather nicely.
For the record, the Scorpion King in Mummy Returns was an aqrabuamelu, a creature that often appeared on temple walls and was said to be a guardian of the Underworld (if memory serves). You should do a video on them.
This is all absolutely fascinating. I wish there were opportunities for long videos as deeply researched and well-presented with cultural respect as this!
Can I just tell you how much I love the outtakes at end of each of your videos?! They’re very humanizing and funny, especially after subject matter that is often horrible and terrifying. And hearing you say “AF” totally made my morning 😉
One thing that really stood out is that the end state of Tiamat within Mesopotamian myth is the story writ by Hammurabi. It's something that a lot of people who talk about and debate myth should understand, these stories were always evolving and being manipulated by the people in power, the ones that are left in the end might not be the same as were believed by even 90% of the people who lived with them.
The first reference to Tiamat I encountered was in the Bruce Coville book "Jeremy Thatcher, Dragon Hatcher." She wasn't presented negatively at all. Well, Tiamat did show up in the old Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, which I saw years earlier, but I'd completely forgotten about her by the time I read the book. Also, I didn't see many episodes of the show, so I may have just missed her appearances in it. Anyway, I recently found out that Ed Greenwood, creator of D&D's most famous campaign setting, the Forgotten Realms, intended the Tiamat of that setting to be the Tiamat of Mesopotamian mythology. There used to be connections between Earth and the fantasy world of the Forgotten Realms, which is why the gods of ancient Earth have a presence in that setting. As for Bahamut, he comes from Islamic cosmology and may be named for the biblical Behemoth. I'm not quite sure why he became Tiamat's counterpart in Dungeons and Dragons, though.
Possibly, Bahamut and Tiamat were turned into counterparts in D&D because her body in the Mesopotamian myths was used to create the land, while he's portrayed in myth as the fish upon which the bull that supports the earth rests within the primordial oceans (as such, he could be seen as either holding her up, or swimming within her). I'm more wondering how both of them came to be dragons, when she's not really described, and he's a fish or a whale, depending on which version you look to. Also, if I recall, it wasn't just Forgotten Realms that included real-world myths and deities. D&D 1e featured the infamous "Deities and Demigods" book, that was yet another case of Gygax just casually using the IP of others in his game until he got called out on it. Deities and Demigods featured 17 different pantheons, only 15 of which were real-world based. The other two were Lovecraft's pantheon of Elder Gods from the C'thulu mythos, and the Melnibonean pantheon from the Elric of Melnibone saga by Michael Moorcock. This, much like including Hobbits (instead of what we now have in halflings) in his original game system, resulted in legal trouble, until they were removed in the third printing. The earlier printings are now a collector's item worth a small fortune.
I can't recall the source, but I remember reading somewhere that when Gary Gygax was creating the original monster manual back in the 70s he wanted to create a pair of rulers for both the good and evil dragons. Originally the ruler of evil dragons was going be Leviathan while Behemoth was the ruler of the good dragons, both from the Old Testament. Somewhere along the way he decided to change their identities to Tiamat and Bahamut (a name probably derived from Behemoth originally) because he felt unwise to include material from the Bible.
@@Nizzet Considering the huge storm of outrage and offense that arose from having "devils" and "demons" in D&D, this was probably a clever move on Gygax's part. The game did and still does breed huge amounts of conflict from anything that can remotely give leverage to the claim that "D&D is Satanic," and having the Leviathan and Behemoth feature into it would probably bring the jackals out en masse.
I always wanted to learn about tiamat . So the video was amazing. I was wondering if you could make a video about apep (apophis) who is also a ancient dieti like her , he is kinda underrated so to see a vidéo about him would be very nice
FGO Player: Ah, yes. Tiamom. She's very cute. And now I think I have a bad case of Oedipus complex for her. Normie: Say what!? FGO Player: Did I stutter?
I’ve heard of Tiamat before. It was in a video about the Monsterverse( Legendary Godzilla franchise) and it’s depiction of in it. It’s basically a serpentine creature that’s twice the length of the G-man. It also has razor sharp fins and can spit an acid like substance from its mouth. It appeared in the graphic novel “ Godzilla Dominion” where it was defeated by Godzilla in an underwater air pocket.
Interesting… this reminds me of the 8-bit game “The Eidolon” where the final boss is a 7-headed dragon, and you have to defeat each of its heads to win the game.
the first time i learned about tiamat was in 2006 when reading the lyrics of the song "rebirth of the nemesis" by melechesh, and i was instantly fascinated ^^
Thanks for this amazing and concise presentation. Much appreciated. To the artist: It would be awesome to be able to buy all the art used in a combined way, let's say, a tarot deck or oracle deck. All put together, the presentation (editing also), the art, this is absolutely wonderful.
Strange and wonderful. Totally fascinating. I just happened to catch this post randomly. I like you and the I like the subject matter. I'll keep watching . Thanque. 😃
Marduk v. Tiamat - another sky god (embodying order) v. sea god (embodying chaos) being central in a creation myth. So many parallels throughout mythology across the globe that it can’t just be coincidence.
A counter-indication, though. Also found throughout the world are flood stories. The Creator undoes the creation by allowing the waters of chaos, which are the waters above, to rain down on the waters of cosmos, which are the waters below.
Would you consider doing an episode on Demogorgon? The modern adaptation section would be fun, I would imagine. I have always wondered if it is a simple mythology -> D&D -> To Stranger Things chain of progression or if it is more complex.
Basically, except the mythology part. Demogorgon was originally a misreading of the Greek word for demiurge, demiourgon, and later writers ran with it.
I loved this episode, i am a fan of sumerian mythology, and would love more of it in media. The Epic of gilgamesh and the archtype of heroes would be very nice next :3
Never heard of this one or Mesopotamian mythology, but thats why I love your channel! Please please please can you do videos on Hippogriffs, leviathans, kelpies and selkies?
They might have, already. Perhaps not under each name. Kelpies and selkies are Celtic water monsters, so check those. I know they have one on gryphons/griffins.
In Final Fantasy XIV her story took a twist where in the end she becomes our ally, protector of the world and avenger of her children. I really like that, as it doesn’t portray her in the over exaggerated evil light. Tiamat deserves better.
Don't know if this has been mentioned or not but she has a very prominent role in Fate Grand Order. A very popular mobile gacha game. She's very much like her mythological counterpart. Taking revenge to all those who wronged her. Love the video!
It is hard not to see Echidna- a mother of monsters in Greek myth- as a distorted recollection of Tiamat, or a Hellenic reinterpretation. And of course, there are other fascinating parallels-battle in heaven, generational struggles of older gods with newer ones, and so on.
I wonder if it could go both ways too? That the Bull Men from the Tiamat myth are somehow a (very distorted) reference to the island of Minos?
I am entirely too fuzzy on just when all these groups existed so, if it's a case of "Minos was a big deal waaaaaay after Babylon" then oh well
But it's still interesting to think on it! Especially with the very human tendency to "other" a new culture, or a group that your tribe is going to make war on...do we know if that number 11 also shows up in the history of "we conquered these guys then those guys"?
It gets better when you realize that Echidna is the daughter of Gaia, the grandmother of all Olympian gods; indeed it seems that a fierce Great Mother goddess may have once dominated Mediterranean Europe and the Near East perhaps
@@manmoy4104, exactly- see my mention above about generational struggle. Ouranos, Cronos, Giants, Hundred-Handed Ones, Titans, Olympians. Gaia and Rhea and their ambiguous roles…and on down to Echidna. In Greek myth, it sometimes feels like the same story told three times in differing ways.
@@Beryllahawk While its hard to say when all these concepts came into being, in terms of when they were first written down Sumer and by association Sumerian mythology was alongside the old kingdom of Egypt the earliest civilizations to develop a system of writing. So at least in terms of documentation Tiamat is many thousands of years older. Regardless there clearly was and still is a very long history of cross pollination of ideas especially within the fertile crescent and Mediterranean which way predates the invention of writing.
I think you're right. A lot of people have no real sense of the scale of ancient history vs modern history. People often talk about, "Ancient Greeks" or even "Ancient Romans" when the Greeks and Romans are closer in time to us than to Babylon in its prime (or Sumer thousands of years before that). The entire Mediterranean, Egypt, Mesopotamia and reaching over all the way to India, were active trade networks, culturally entwined for literally thousands of years before Alexander united them politically. That the stories echo one another is no coincidence.
Now I know why Tiamat is the mother of dragons in DnD. It's really cool to learn more about old myths and legends outside of the standard Greek/Roman/European umbrella.
Reminds me of Echidna of Greek mythology.
@@arcturionblade1077 she's likely a Mesopotamian import like Aphrodite being Ishtar
@@RedRhys64 Most likely but don't say it loud when greeks are around 😉
I couldn't agree more.
A lot of Egyptian, Persian and Indian mythology is also well known.
It would be cool to mention that the depiction of Ninurta with Anzu you showed here was for a long time believed by many to be a depiction of Marduk and Tiamat instead. Very cool Easter Egg
Yep many people get confused about that but in truth it's about ninurta fighting Anzu and here's an interesting fact ninurta beat a lot of minor God's, monster's, demon's after he killed them he made a chiarot out of their bodies
He fought some weird stuff like a plam tree king fighter yes a palm tree 🌴 who can fight like warrior man what I would give to see this
@Boco Corwin possibol inspiration 🤔
I mean, Gilgamesh would know better than anyone I guess.
I always had a problem with the identification of the serpentine Tiamat with an obviously non-serpentine (and male) monster. Good to know it wasn't me.
@@julietfischer5056 yeah. I've seen even books mess this up thinking that the moster depicted there is Tiamat and the god Marduk. If books are getting confused then it's ok for you to get confused too 😅
Apsu/Abzu's death story sounds very vaguely similar to that of Uranus and Cronos in the ancient Greek religion; wonder if there was an even older Mediterranean or Middle Eastern tale that gave rise to both stories
I feel everything is connected
The oldest European would be proto Indo European, stories around the world are similar to this. I believe the term is chaoskampf, the storm god of creation destroying the sea god of chaos. It's been a while since I've looked it up.
Yeah, alot of these stories can be traced back to one place that then branch out to other countries. They will then form new stories with them, but will sometimes cross pollinate to borrow from each other. The Bible and Norse poetry does this exact same thing.
The God of the Hebrew Bible is identified with the storm as well and controls chaos, not with violence, but with His voice. He also slew the Leviathan. So it is also clear that this chaoskampf myth influenced Judaism and Christianity, but the Hebrews put a different spin on it.
Read Carl Jung and his work on the collective unconscious, and archetypes. It'll explain just that :).
I think she was probably a primordial water goddess, creator mother of all other gods during Sumerian or older times, but with the rise of Warrior Storm Gods, she became more of a monster to be slain and counqured to give way to creation like Joseph Campbell speculates.
Exactly, the whole "thunder god slaying a monstrous sea dragon" is a very common trope originating from Proto Indo-European myths, so it's possible that this Indo-European archetypal story "bled" into Akkadian/Babylonian culture at some point. Sumerians had nothing to do with the Indo-Europeans, they were completely separate.
@victorbrine2414 Even many East Asian myths contain stories of Thunder Gods slaying dragons or serpents, so the general idea may be a little older than Indo- or even Proto-Indo-Europeans. That or a story and it's variations maybe traveled along ancient trade and migration routes and was adapted by cultures all across Eurasia. Something to think about at least
I do not really buy this type of myth only originating in Indo-Europeans. Snakes are universally feared and lives more in equatorial regions. Akkadians and Babylonians were Semitic, much more warlike and patriarchal, it could have been just a corruption of mother goddess creation story.
What evidence do you have that ancient peoples believed in "gods" literally? None. They were nothing but fictions that had cultural significance, basically like Batman or Spiderman except with more deep significance to the culture
@@john.premose You do realize plenty of these ancient cultures were nice enough to write a lot of this stuff down for us, right? Ancient peoples believed in their gods the same way modern people believe in theirs.
Even after all editions of this, for some reason I still imagine "I'm Dr Emily Monstrum, and this is Zarka" at the close of the intro 😂
I’ve been reading a lot about Mesopotamian mythology this week, so this video is a perfect supplement!
Lament of Gilgamesh just came out too.
@@dubuyajay9964 Ba-nu ḫur nu-mu-e-da-an-zi-zi!
Perhaps you can do "slimes" next, I wondered about it's origin, it seems to be a modern monster, not as modern as Sirenhead but still fairly modern but maybe I will be surprised and there is an older origin or inspiration for the creature.
Isn't The Blob movie the inspiration behind oozes and gelatinous cubes?
But yeah, it would be cool to know about their cultural influences and symbolism
This is such a good idea! I wonder if slimes go farther back than the blob movies
From what I understand, it starts with the blob, which is inspired by real life ameaba. Then the blob inspired some slime monsters in DND, which made it a staple fantasy monster.
Aren't they inspired by failed alchemy? Something about unformed souls
Slime is also an actual thing, + slugs, probably stuff out there we just lost overtime besides general consciousness
If I remember correctly, the very first Final Fantasy was heavily inspired by Dungeons and Dragons, from the classes, to the spells, and to the monsters, so the Tiamat of both franchises being very similar is not surprising considering that one of them copied the (inaccurate) homework of the other.
The Tiamat of the first Final Fantasy game was presented as a multi-headed dragon and the strongest of the Elemental Fiends, whose domain was Air. Strange that, considering Tiamat of real historical mythology was a goddess of the sea (salt water).
Yeah this is sadly where most of the popular interpretations of Tiamat come from D&D generally has this tendency given its wide reach in popular culture with notoriously poor and even at times shockingly inconsistent worldbuilding.
That's when Dungeon Master had enough of Eric the Cavalier. He opens the door to find Tiamat waiting patiently on the other side
Btw, next month a D&D classic cartoon characters Little Golden Book is being released. It's $5.99.
🤓
Fate/Grand Order also has a depiction of Tiamat. She is humanoid with draconic/beastly figures, and is mostly a rampaging monster throughout her initial appearance. However, when she is slain in the story, she opens up about how she felt betrayed by her children and its honestly kind of sad. I wonder if other media gives her any form of depth aside from evil dragon/monster.
someone once told me "when you speak it's like you watch PBS on purpose" and i was like "I do, their myth videos slay"
Very interesting, as usual. I actually studied Tiamat's old stories as part of Biblical studies.
So, FUN FACT:
In the first biblical creation myth (Genesis 1), god *creates* heaven and earth, but he does *not* create the two other parts: the waters and the chaos. In Hebrew, the state of the earth at genesis is "Tohu and Bohu" (tohu va'vohu). 'Tohu' is alleged to originate from Tiamat's name, while Bohu is from the Phoenician goddess of primordial darkness 'bohu'.
In this way, the genesis creation myth is a direct theological challenge of the Hebrews/Israelites over their Phoenician and Babylonian contemporaries, in which god replaces mordukh as the power that defeats the primordial waters-chaos-darkness, splits open the waters, and creates from them the skies, and... the rivers! - Euphrates and Tigris (and two more; these come in the second creation myth).
Both tohu and bohu are also primordial mothers, defeated by a "sky father", encoding deep into our culture the emergent of patriarchal order.
(Also fun fact: "Yam", the cannite god of the sea, is also the hebrew word for sea.)
I remember that cartoon from the 1980s Dungeons & Dragons. This monster was one of the main antagonist.
I was hoping they'd show a clip from the cartoon, which was a great show.
"Tiamat is both nurturer and destroyer, mother and monster, as SHE chooses." That's so powerful.
Yep.
This is my mother!
In the sumerian solar system TIAMAT was a planet shattered that supposedly formed earth 🌍🌎🌏 from half the remaining chunk that reformed closer to the sun 🤷🏼♂️, Great Red Dragon 🐲🐉 serpent 🐍⚕️ of old?
There were giants in those days lots of petrified cooked rock 🪨 offerings in the twinkling of an 👁️🔮 reformed in the 7 days of creation 😁🤤😉 look petrified breasts 🌄 at the crack of dawn lol 😉.
It's jack & ory tome 📜 biblical off shoots untold 😬🤔🧐🤐😶🌫️, it's Taboo apparently 🙉🙈🙊 monkey genetic 🧬⚕️💉☯️ transgenics & eugenics 😂🤣😭, no you can't follow that science dictates it's mandated as wrong think lol.
They / them own the 🧬⚕️patent's to our continued transitioning ⚧️ reality 🙅🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️🙍🏼♂️, argh No!!! 😳😯😲😱🤢🤮😷 I don't like this chapter of the great reset story already I'm rather attached to my man ♂️🕺🏼 meat 🍖 don't put it in the grinder...
(Too much critical thinking 🤔 to behold there 🧐???)
How much of earth's history could have actually been built on the carcass of TIAMAT 👀👁️👁️ 😳😜🤪🫠🙃🥴😵💫😵 Boom 💥🔥 shanka 🤯🧠 🧔🏼♀️ 🤲🏻🙏🏻😇👼 saves 1/3rd the angels descended 33.3% leaving a remainder of 2/3rds 66.6% 👀😳 wee mental 🧝🏼♂️🤤 malfunction gymnastics 🤸🏼♂️ spinning ⚛️🧲🧭☯️ confucius utopian idiocracy built back butter 🧈🫠 let's all have a melt down in fraggle rock 🪨 lol...
I am a legendary arse 🐎 🕳️ but my heart 💘❤️🩹💔❤️🔥 is inquisitive of actual events father 🧔🏼♀️🤲🏻🙏🏻😇👼 what mad times I have 🫡🌈😬, mental, totally bonkers, how poetic the justice ⚖️ is 🫠.
Sorry if that was disturbing, welcome to my world 🤗 of over thinking everything, to the end times 🤷🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️, scratch that last think 🤔 happy thoughts 👍🏻😁👍🏻😋...
I searched for the actual meaning of Sa ma el lil ith, it's not good looks like a ⚧️ ancient demon of Chaos Theory.
I've been driven mad & back again since lockdown started, a bit like Bilbo bagins & his 🐲🐉 story, sadly no bag of gold 🪙💰 has passed my palms 🤲🏻🙏🏻 yet...
Self importance is SO POWERFUL
In Fate/Grand Order she has both maternal and monstrous aspects, "Femme Fatale" and "Dragonoid" forms. And the community loves her, lots of players wish for years for Mom to be playable, me included.
Her monologue in the FGO anime is so sad, and oddly relatable.
Tiamat in FGO is surprisingly melancholic. More of a broken mother with anger issues rather than a true monster.
Technically she’s a playable character in FGO Arcade but its most likely JP exclusive lel
Now that they add Arcueid, adding Tiamat is only matter of time.
We need Tiamat in mobile version of FGO
I discovered your wonderful show late in the game; but have thoroughly enjoyed every single episode in the playlist and each new one you put out!
Glad you found us!-*Dr.Z*
@@pbsstoried tiamat : 🇮🇶 Iraq Babylon ocean rock primordial dragon headed-five body winged breathes fire destroy people
@@mythicalcreaturesdoctorsor3589 wut
Ancient Mesopotamians:
"How do you think mountains came to be?"
"Y'know their shape kinda remind me of something..."
Big mommy vibes.
Literally, that is one VERY large mother
That was some really fun lore! Thank you for another excellent video!
You hit that right on my head... awesome stuff... Thanks Love 😊
Tiamat has definitely evolved in the Final Fantasy series. In FFXIV she is still a dragon, has only one head, but she is more mother than monster. I think it actually takes more from the original story too, as she loses her beloved (in this version it's Bahamut), and goes down a dark path that creates a facsimile of him that corrupts their children. She allows herself to be punished for this crime, but still cares deeply for all of her children.
Tiamat had multiple heads and was the (strongest) Elemental Fiend of Air back in the original Final Fantasy 1 game.
this is a really cool analysis of this ancient myth!
great video as always
Love the extras at the end of each episode, especially your new theory (headcanon?). Great stuff, as always, Dr Z!
Tiamat is mother in D&D, too. She is the goddess and creator of all the chromatic dragons.
Seeing how old Mesopotamian mythology essentially "translates" into modern myth and religion is really interesting to me. Thanks for this neat video, and congrats on becoming a mom, Dr. Zarka!
I love this series. And this episode really stood out for me. Thanks!
Can you do a video about the Kitsune? Those mystical nine-tailed shape shifting foxes are one of my favorites!
Japan had been influenced by Chinese culture and certain extend India. Kitsune, in original may be refer to disasterous comets.
@@chengkuoklee5734 I'm pretty sure that's tengu, actually. There's a creature linked to comets in Chinese myth called tiangou, which was once the hunting hound of Houyi, the legendary archer and husband of Chang'e, the moon goddess. And at least one way of writing "tengu" can be as "heavenly dog."
Kitsune, on the other hand, are part of a whole host of fox spirits of mischievous, sometimes malicious nature. There's also the Chinese huli jing, the kumiho of Korean legend, and the hồ ly tinh of Vietnamese myth. A fair number of Asian cultures seem to have some form of fox spirit that may be malicious, or even outright malevolent, but can sometimes be or become benevolent toward humans (as shown in how kitsune can ascend to become "tenko," literally "heavenly foxes", and potentially become servants of the god Inari).
🦊
Another pop culture reference: "Tiamat's Wrath", the penultimate novel in The Expanse series by James S. A. Corey. All of The Expanse novels have similar titles, making reference to historical, biblical, or mythical figures or places.
That's where I first heard of Tiamat.
This was a very enlightening episode. I never knew I’d side with Tiamat on some topics. Thanks for all your research.
Thank you, Dr Zarka - this video has won the channel a new subscriber.
From what I remember reading in "The Elements Guide to Fantasy Creatures" she was both a mother deity and described as a dragon-like entity, but not defined merely as a "monster" and is linked with the monsters Echidna and Typhon who were said to be her children
In the game Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, you can summon Tiamat, and she is described as "The mother of dragons." She is, herself, an adorable dragon that incinerates your enemies.
I’d love to see more of mesopotamian myths and monsters! Loved this!
I am currently writing a book with a dragon that is partly based on the Mesopotamian dragon, mostly avian in nature with a mix of feline/serpentine traits with the ability to carry all three silhouettes depending on his posture. Maybe I should find a way to incorporate her as some sort of primordial deity or a force of nature?
You cannot do mesopotamian dragons without giving at least give a nod to Tiamat
Tiamat's interpretation in game Fate Grand Order is quite interesting. Several comments have already mentioned this so you should definitely check it out.
I've always been fascinated with Echidna from Greek mythology. When I think "mother of all monsters", Echidna is the first that comes to mind. Tiamat is pretty cool, but I've come to associate her more with D&D, being the mother of all dragons.
Echidna you not.
Ecidnda is the kid who said the joke louder
@@ToxicQueen2787 honestly the Greeks just said every joke louder
Probably the Greeks Stole the idea and change it a bit to fit the version it's not the first time
@@ToxicQueen2787 No, they're tiny little spiky things that get run over by cars
Love this episode! Thank you for covering Tiamat! D&D was my first introduction to Tiamat.
Another video game appearance Tiamat makes is in the Shin Megami Tensei series. In those games her design incorporates both her monstrous and motherly/feminine qualities.
I like the Ancient Aliens interpretation of this story, that Tiamat was a planet. That certainly explains how all these people and events could exist within her womb.
Mars was a moon of Tiamat (Mars = Marduk). Tiamat was destroyed, it's remains are now the asteroid belt.
The "monsters" she "birthed" were alien life forms from the planet Tiamat and they fought a war with another alien culture on and above planet earth. It really all clicks together rather nicely.
As a Final Fantasy fan, I’m happy the franchise was featured in the video 🙂
A video about video game monsters would be cool in my opinion.
In my opinion, Tiamat did nothing wrong she just wanted vengeance towards her ungrateful children with Apsu. Also she is too awesome to be evil.
I've been researching this very subject I'm glad you're touching on it I'm excited for this video
I am so glad this channel exists
For the record, the Scorpion King in Mummy Returns was an aqrabuamelu, a creature that often appeared on temple walls and was said to be a guardian of the Underworld (if memory serves). You should do a video on them.
This is all absolutely fascinating. I wish there were opportunities for long videos as deeply researched and well-presented with cultural respect as this!
Glad to see Tiamat carried over to Final Fantasy and Fate/Grand Order. She's the complete opposite of Echidna in Greek Mythology in fact.
Man, is your timing great! My 6th graders are learning about Hammurabi and his code this week!
Wonderful video. The music absolutely going off also helps
Can I just tell you how much I love the outtakes at end of each of your videos?! They’re very humanizing and funny, especially after subject matter that is often horrible and terrifying. And hearing you say “AF” totally made my morning 😉
A huge fan. PLEASE!! Where did you get your necklace??..
It’s vintage! Picked it up in an antique store in PHX-*Dr. Z*
@@pbsstoried tiamat : Iraq headed-five dragon wing breathes fire
One thing that really stood out is that the end state of Tiamat within Mesopotamian myth is the story writ by Hammurabi. It's something that a lot of people who talk about and debate myth should understand, these stories were always evolving and being manipulated by the people in power, the ones that are left in the end might not be the same as were believed by even 90% of the people who lived with them.
Most traditions change with the times, oral stories especially.
The first reference to Tiamat I encountered was in the Bruce Coville book "Jeremy Thatcher, Dragon Hatcher." She wasn't presented negatively at all. Well, Tiamat did show up in the old Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, which I saw years earlier, but I'd completely forgotten about her by the time I read the book. Also, I didn't see many episodes of the show, so I may have just missed her appearances in it. Anyway, I recently found out that Ed Greenwood, creator of D&D's most famous campaign setting, the Forgotten Realms, intended the Tiamat of that setting to be the Tiamat of Mesopotamian mythology. There used to be connections between Earth and the fantasy world of the Forgotten Realms, which is why the gods of ancient Earth have a presence in that setting. As for Bahamut, he comes from Islamic cosmology and may be named for the biblical Behemoth. I'm not quite sure why he became Tiamat's counterpart in Dungeons and Dragons, though.
Possibly, Bahamut and Tiamat were turned into counterparts in D&D because her body in the Mesopotamian myths was used to create the land, while he's portrayed in myth as the fish upon which the bull that supports the earth rests within the primordial oceans (as such, he could be seen as either holding her up, or swimming within her). I'm more wondering how both of them came to be dragons, when she's not really described, and he's a fish or a whale, depending on which version you look to.
Also, if I recall, it wasn't just Forgotten Realms that included real-world myths and deities. D&D 1e featured the infamous "Deities and Demigods" book, that was yet another case of Gygax just casually using the IP of others in his game until he got called out on it. Deities and Demigods featured 17 different pantheons, only 15 of which were real-world based. The other two were Lovecraft's pantheon of Elder Gods from the C'thulu mythos, and the Melnibonean pantheon from the Elric of Melnibone saga by Michael Moorcock. This, much like including Hobbits (instead of what we now have in halflings) in his original game system, resulted in legal trouble, until they were removed in the third printing. The earlier printings are now a collector's item worth a small fortune.
I can't recall the source, but I remember reading somewhere that when Gary Gygax was creating the original monster manual back in the 70s he wanted to create a pair of rulers for both the good and evil dragons. Originally the ruler of evil dragons was going be Leviathan while Behemoth was the ruler of the good dragons, both from the Old Testament. Somewhere along the way he decided to change their identities to Tiamat and Bahamut (a name probably derived from Behemoth originally) because he felt unwise to include material from the Bible.
@@Nizzet Considering the huge storm of outrage and offense that arose from having "devils" and "demons" in D&D, this was probably a clever move on Gygax's part. The game did and still does breed huge amounts of conflict from anything that can remotely give leverage to the claim that "D&D is Satanic," and having the Leviathan and Behemoth feature into it would probably bring the jackals out en masse.
I just clicked on and I'm really looking forward to this one; videos about Mesopotamian mythology still feel far too rare.
In D&D Tiamat is still a mother. She gave birth to the original Chromatic Dragons. Also depending on the setting a variety of gods.
wow, I guess FGO series kinda portrayed Tiamat far more faithfully by being a naughty big badonka dragon waifu, then most of fantasy series.
Nice video on Tiamat, my friend! Tiamat in D&D will always be my incarnation of Tiamat because she is so cool and very hardcore!
Like always, LUV it!
Tiamat is so awesome interesting. Thanks Dr. Z!
I thought my city clerk was the mother of all monsters, but I have an open mind and am willing to learn. Thank you, Monstrum.
If it's because she refused to give a marriage license to a gay couple, it's an honest mistake.
I always wanted to learn about tiamat . So the video was amazing. I was wondering if you could make a video about apep (apophis) who is also a ancient dieti like her , he is kinda underrated so to see a vidéo about him would be very nice
Tiamat was a kaiju in the Godzilla movie, although she didn’t had no many heads or wings but she had a pink frill.
FGO Player: Ah, yes. Tiamom. She's very cute. And now I think I have a bad case of Oedipus complex for her.
Normie: Say what!?
FGO Player: Did I stutter?
Awesome episode!
Calling all D&D nerds!
🤣
There's also (unsurprisingly) a metal band named after Tiamat
3.5 is the true edition.
Someone call the good dragon marduk
I loved psyching my gamers out, making them think the monster they were about to face was Tiamat.
Your voice soothes the soul
I’ve heard of Tiamat before. It was in a video about the Monsterverse( Legendary Godzilla franchise) and it’s depiction of in it. It’s basically a serpentine creature that’s twice the length of the G-man. It also has razor sharp fins and can spit an acid like substance from its mouth. It appeared in the graphic novel “ Godzilla Dominion” where it was defeated by Godzilla in an underwater air pocket.
Thank you. Loved this.
I would like all these chapters to be in the future seasons of Monstrum.
*Sea Serpents
*Leviathan
*The Headless Horseman ✅
*Phantom Vehicles
*Boogeyman
*Ghosts
*Possessed Dolls
*Shadow People
*Undead
*Goblins
*Bigfoot
*Man-Eating Plants ✅
*Creepy Clowns
*Killer Robots
*Swamp Monsters
*The Mummy ✅️
*Scarecrows
*The Invisible Man
*Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde
*Merfolk
*Demons
*Skeletons
*Stingy Jack (Jack of The Lantern)
*Gnomes
*Sea Monsters that attacked Submarines
*Alien Abductions ✅
*Ogres
*Ghouls
*Lich
*Cyborgs
*Witches
*Kaiju
*Cthulhu ✅
*The Rake
*Revenants
*Vampires
*Dagon
*Ogopogo
*Colossal Claude
*Spectral Carriages
*Kappa
*Flatwoods Monster
Thank you for all interesting videos. 👏
It's not the 1st time ear stories about gods fighting against dragon or serpent like creature every mythology you hear about. 🐉🐍🔥⚡️🗡💪
Tiamat is also referenced in Yugioh with the card Five Headed Dragon and the Blue Eyes White Dragon is it’s rival
And yet godzilla decides HE is the one true GOD
Interesting… this reminds me of the 8-bit game “The Eidolon” where the final boss is a 7-headed dragon, and you have to defeat each of its heads to win the game.
Can you do a video on Igbo mythology? The history of Odinaani, Nri, and all the others! They have some of the most unique spiritual systems ever!🔥🔥🔥
Monsters are simply monstrous; INSIGHT of monsters is beyond monstrous - it's MONSTRUM!
the first time i learned about tiamat was in 2006 when reading the lyrics of the song "rebirth of the nemesis" by melechesh, and i was instantly fascinated ^^
Thanks for this amazing and concise presentation. Much appreciated.
To the artist: It would be awesome to be able to buy all the art used in a combined way, let's say, a tarot deck or oracle deck.
All put together, the presentation (editing also), the art, this is absolutely wonderful.
Tiamat is the primordial Goddess and marduk is the classic patriarchal pretender to her Throne.
Strange and wonderful. Totally fascinating. I just happened to catch this post randomly. I like you and the I like the subject matter. I'll keep watching . Thanque. 😃
Marduk v. Tiamat - another sky god (embodying order) v. sea god (embodying chaos) being central in a creation myth. So many parallels throughout mythology across the globe that it can’t just be coincidence.
chaoskampf look it up if you have not already.
A counter-indication, though. Also found throughout the world are flood stories. The Creator undoes the creation by allowing the waters of chaos, which are the waters above, to rain down on the waters of cosmos, which are the waters below.
@6:55 Code of Hammurabi.... Code of Harambe... Harambe was the reincarnation of Hammurabi? Reality since 2016 makes sense now.
This channel is a wonderful diversion from my otherwise science based line-up. Great episode. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you very much, this gave me a lot to work with.
Would you consider doing an episode on Demogorgon? The modern adaptation section would be fun, I would imagine. I have always wondered if it is a simple mythology -> D&D -> To Stranger Things chain of progression or if it is more complex.
Basically, except the mythology part. Demogorgon was originally a misreading of the Greek word for demiurge, demiourgon, and later writers ran with it.
I loved this episode, i am a fan of sumerian mythology, and would love more of it in media. The Epic of gilgamesh and the archtype of heroes would be very nice next :3
What a beautiful Tiamat your artists did. Beautiful monster, guys
Never heard of this one or Mesopotamian mythology, but thats why I love your channel! Please please please can you do videos on Hippogriffs, leviathans, kelpies and selkies?
They might have, already. Perhaps not under each name. Kelpies and selkies are Celtic water monsters, so check those. I know they have one on gryphons/griffins.
Thank you for providing my dnd character with the power to destroy all that's natural sending the world back to whence it came from
this sounds like an idea for a monster family tree chart, starting from Tiamat and her 11 children to modern monsters.
Libations and praise upon our Lady of the Lore for doing our dragon mama long overdue justice!
I like the moniker, not going to lie-*Dr. Z*
I love monstrum, It was so good.
And I was biggest fan of your videos. 😀😃🙂😊
Finaly! I've been waiting for this!
I knew Tiamat was not another fire breathing lizard depicted by most JRPGs. Great content.
Creation from chaos is an interesting theme among several myths. Cipactli, Ymir, Tiamat... There are bunch of those around
When you look at where they're found, you understand why. There are less dramatic creation stories, where all the good stuff happens afterwards.
In Final Fantasy XIV her story took a twist where in the end she becomes our ally, protector of the world and avenger of her children. I really like that, as it doesn’t portray her in the over exaggerated evil light. Tiamat deserves better.
That eleven theory is actually cool, dr. Z!!!
Don't know if this has been mentioned or not but she has a very prominent role in Fate Grand Order. A very popular mobile gacha game. She's very much like her mythological counterpart. Taking revenge to all those who wronged her. Love the video!
Mans really had beef with an ancient Babylonian goddess 💀💀💀
The art in this episode is just super🔥
Another excellent video