The thing about keys depleting that affects the under-21’s, in my opinion, is that it imposes a mentality of inviting people that are overqualified for key level out of fear of depletion. Not only do you waste the time you spent in the depleted key, but you’re set back further than when you entered.
This 100% this!! Add to that the fact that the keys are random so if you are really going for an item/specific dungeon it s just suuuch a slog fest. If i can run underrot +20 over and over i really dint give a shit we wipe on second boss…
Agreed. Additionally, I think this would remove a lot of the toxicity that exists in the m+ pugging scene. It's normally the person whose key gets depleted that starts raging. If there was no deplete then it's frustrating but you just go again with another group.
With Mythic plus key rewards for timing a 20 you should get an individual keystone for that dungeon that you can then level up. So you can hold all dungeon keys at once and just pick and choose what you've done. It scales to your highest key of that dungeon. The key will deplete at every failure but will save at every break point (20/25/30)
Same idea as me, but I would rather put another console in instead of having to carry tons of keys around. This would also make downgrading possible (e.g. helping a friend to achieve a +24, even though your key is at +27 and theirs at +20.)
Imagine this m+ system: Your team is good enough to just +1 a dungeon. GOOD JOB Now your key is 1 level higher AND you can CHOOSE your dungeon at the end of the run or randomize it. -- That’s it. You did something good and you are rewarded. Now if you FAIL: Your keystone has 3 charges. If you want to restart, it goes down a charge. If you lose all your charges, your key goes down by 1 and its randomized to any other dungeon. ---This way there is at least a penalty but you had 3 chances to try. FUN?
For people who don't want to play the other pillar of PvE you could bring back the Dinar system, but like this: clearing all dungeons at lvl 10 gets you a dinar as well a clearing all dungeons at lvl 15. These dinar that you earn from M+ are used to purchase items from the raid loot table. Clearing the raid on normal difficulty gets you a dinar as well as clearing the raid on heroic difficulty gets you a dinar. These dinar that you earn from raiding are used to purchase something off the M+ loot table. These could not be earned before maybe week four or six, to protect the early cutting edge scene. If you met the requirements before the unlock week, it's in your bags when you log in during the unlock week. Earning a dinar gives you a breadcrumb quest to the vendor.
Naowh literally solved m+ key depletion. Keep depletes, but give 1x currency for any timed key. When you have 5x currency, you get to set your keystone to any dungeon and any level you want. Incentivizes the big bois to help out the lower brackets to get their reroll tokens, and I don't think anyone in the lower brackets would be upset about being able to easily target ~15% of their total keys for the season.
What a great podcast. Love having Naowh on the show. Really loved hearing all the insight on M+. Keep these discussions coming. I love all the long form discussions.
@@Chaplin097 but it is irrelevant which one is harder, because I think the main point was to create a system where gear from m+ would be only better in m+, not in raid, so there is no advantage of getting easier gear from m+ and using it in raid. Therefore people who play only raid or only m+ are not at disadvantage against people who play both at the highest level.
@@Chaplin09725 is way too low it should be title range. I think capping it at 25 is unfair. Just when .5 patch comes out figure out what keys top 0.2% players are doing (Lets say double the title range). And allow those ppl to buy 450 gear. I might be biased, I am not a hardcore player I play only a few hours a week but I get title each season I try to. Got 3700 this season, with pushing keys maybe once a week, I just feel it would be unfair to raiders if you could get 450 gear doing 25s bc I've done 25s this season on 4 different tanks while only having a few hours of playtime on each of them this season. It needs to be fair to the Mythic raider, so I think that gear should be reserved for the ppl competing for the title. So somewhere in the 0.2-0.3% of the M+ players. If you do 25s its gonna be 2-3% about 10x as many ppl. And with the extra rewards it might even hit 5%. It should be at a point where mythic raiders dont feel like its worth pushing m+ for the ilvl, but low enough that someone who wants to compete for title can compete fairly against the raider. If you cant get 0.25% without the extra 5ilvls you wont get into 0.1% with the 5ilvls. But if you can get 0.1% with max ilvl you will be able to get 0.25 with 5ilvls less that 5ilvls is usually worth 1.5 key levels mathematically.
@@tommy4862i think there should just be a vendor where you can buy all your 450 gear from raid but it should only be available after the .5 patch and to the M+ players who are doing top 0.2% of keys (27-28 this season). Maybe that mythic raid gear is 450 ilvl but if you use it in heroic raid or open world it scales down to heroic version. So you essentially have mythic raid gear in M+ but if you use it outside its heroic. That sounds extremely fair to me
The whole augmentation conversation is because of the "play safe big IO" meta. Naowh is right, living is what gets you the IO, not damage, in most cases
funny how many people hated corruptions back in the day, on streams all communities said that corruptions made the game worse, yet here everyone agrees that they still had the most fun playing with them :)
Targeting specific keys would help to push io for your lower players as well, say for example the only key I needed was a FH 20 and i Que for 10 different pug but never get taken. Where if I could force my key to go to the dungeon I need to improve my score at least that way I can target my io increases over just praying my key rerolls to the right dungeon or someone takes me in their group
That argument between Naowh and others arguing about WHY and HOW MUCH is Augvoker powerful and mandatory was in a way not "fun" to hear. Naowh was right on point about why Augvoker is literally mandatory and helps not just the entire group but mostly Tanks to stay alive and Healer to keep everyone alive. And others kept arguing about mobs HP and damage that's already built-in into M+ key scaling.
Problem with split gearing like Naowh described here is if you are someone that plays both M+ and Raid, you will essentially need to gear twice. Your high level M+ gear will be much weaker than the raid gear that ‘scales’ in raid and visa versa. Being fully geared in raid and then doing the lowest DPS in a key would be a real feel bad situation that this would create. This would essentially double the gearing requirement and lead to less people doing both.
Adding a positive affix like encrypted or shrouded back would be great. IT would be as much to "learn" as you get when you change from bursting or bolstering or volcanic. The rotation after the first rotation you know how the affix works
If you're doing a currency, give (a limited amount of) more currency the lower you end up going compared to your max, giving a once per day bonus for bringing new people's keys up.
You could even take it a step further, and rerolling your key brings it to the level of the key you just timed (if its higher than your current). I think this would be mostly helpful for alts...or if your key was just depleted, you could join a pug and get a key of equal level back if it was timed
@@ericanderson2685man I'd love this change specifically. Doing late night keys on alts thar have no io but are at minimum the same ilvl my main was when doing those keys originally but rarely getting taken sucked. And when alting I didnt wanna slowly push my own key. I did end up usually finding a friend to join some higher keys thru undergeared and did fine but this change woulda been golden. Crazy how people think I had be to 420ilvl to tank/heal a weekly 20 key even early/midway into season 1.. like man...
One thing about depleting that is kind of hard to quantify, but why I am personally a big fan of the "not deplete" argument is quite simply TIME itself. Even outside the confines of the game, time is the most valuable and ultimately finite resource every human has. We charge for it at work, we offer it to the activities and people we find valuable, so the idea that this game that I am already giving my fundamentally finite time to, would then impose a time punishment , is one that does not sit well with me, especially considering that we've already attained the said key to begin with. Surpassing the skill check blizzard has put in place of obtaining that key.
After finishing a key make the keyholder choose between 3 keys instead of getting a random one would be a good option and give keys an attempt of 2 just to see how it plays out. Small changes, big impact
Idea for MDI, ”King of the hill-format”. Lean in to the undeniable truth that echo and maybe 1 more team is going to compete and every other team is just cannon fodder in the current format. Making it so if you wanted to challenge Echo, you could have the advantage of choosing the dungeon and affix. It is the only realistic way it would be exciting to view or for any team to catch up is to limit the practice for echo, if a team can practice one map to perfection and have echo do it”on the fly” would make it fair
A point I always want to make with Prideful - that was a great affix for lower keys and players that play less, and could have still been really good if it received major tuning to its scaling. That thing just scaled absolutely out of control on higher keys, which ruined it for that section of players, but that could have been avoided with better numbers no?
Here's my personal reasoning for being against depleting: depleting a key often times just ends my week of playing the game. As a pretty casual player who doesn't play the game for a job, I enjoy doing keys, but if I'm doing say a 16 for aspect crests and some edge lord comes in and bricks the key by leaving because someone flamed someone else my week is just over. As a dps player I can pretty much only do my own keys. Sitting on a 15 is just a dead key that nobody wants to do. And I'm just so demoralized that I usually just decide I'm done playing for the week and ultimately since I have the KSM mount, I'm probably just not playing until next patch. On top of that, it pretty much forces me to only accept over qualified players, even though I'd love to give newer players a chance once in a while.
1:13:00 or so - About Naowh wishing to not have to do Mythic raiding to get best gear for M+ They have a system now with Crafted gear for PvP. You can add both the Enchanted Crests (to increase ilvl in non-PvP content) but to also add the PvP marks (Crest of Honor and Trophy of Conquest ) to make the items get the boosted ilvl in Battlegrounds and Arena. Just add a system where you can use tokens from your preferred content that let you boost ilvl of an item in Raid or M+. For example: I get a Beacon from LFR Sark that I want to use in M+. I use some Valor to buy an item-upgrade Token that I can then use to give this LFR Beacon boosted ilvl in M+. It will still have the same low ilvl in Raids and PvP, but now I'm using M+ currency (and possibly M+ rating) to boost its ilvl in M+. Same with M+ items in Raids, where you can get your Irideus Fragment from a +5 HoA and spend Crests from the Raid to upgrade its ilvl in Raid only. It would still be very meh in M+ due to low ilvl and I would like to keep gearing through M+ for a better version if M+ is what I like to do, but I don't won't be an extremely lucky Raider to get the 447 Bile-Stained Crawg Tusks in my Vault if I can slowly upgrade one from a +2 Underrot. Just buy an item with currency from your type of content (Valor from M+, Crests from Raid, Conquest from PvP), then either use it on your preferred item like how we add sockets or enchants. Or if BLizz want to keep Professions super relevant put up a Recrafting order (the same profession that can craft an item-type would also recraft, so JC can recraft Rings and Necks to add this new token, Inscription recrafts Staves, etc) and now you don't have to push 10x +20 keys every week, or try to clear Mythic raids, hoping to be lucky in your Vault.
55:30 I did this with a group of buddies. It was only a 20, we were carrying a rat. But I sent a full fishface route, went hard left, after first boss went left again, then since you cant do the skip between gutshot and treemouth we pulled that. I said no one like stinkbreath, so I jumped down into the slimes, and pull through the forest onto Treemouth. Then just did the gauntlet like normal, however, fun fact, the slimes under the bridge respawn...so we had to rescue someone and ended up pulling stinkbreath anyways...None of them knew it was coming, was glorious
crazy concept, old dgs have the best seasonal affix from that expansion like if its halls from shadowlands that dg only has relics, or freehold with s4 affix or something, i feel like that could REALLY spice up the dgs being brought back, ofc they would need to set a random good affix to like scarlet monestary or somethin but i feel like that could be sick to bring back and spice up
It is exactly the same situation as rogue in BFA and fire mage in s4 BFA, and anyone who says it isn't is coping. Fire mage was doing like 8x the dmg of anything else, and that allowed you to bring the rogue in s4 (where you might have just done 3x rogue in season 2 and 3) because rogue was just that much better than anything else you could possibly put in the 3rd slot. It is insane to say that ther has never been a more imbalanced class, it is just that you couldnt directly feel the advantage your character was gaining with the other two options in this list.
Dorki talks about MDI prison because they need to figure "this one big pull" out and prepare for the push competition/trials. But imo its only because it's a competition where they need to win... read (objective goals). Most people on live have much more personal (subjective) goals so at some point you just stop. You can stop. But for someone in MDI prison they can't stop without disbanding the team.
Season 1 of dragonflight was one of the best, balance was good, old dungeons weren't too complicated and the df dungeons were complicated but great and fun to grind
On the subject of fixing "having to fish for a specific key for 10 hours" problem What about adding key fragments. If you complete a rot 20 key for example, you get an amount of rot fragments + some other random fragments The size of the key decide how many fragments you get, and when you reroll the key at the end of the dungeon, you can if you have enough, insert these fragments to guarantee what it'll reroll to
I would say it is more frequent in the higher keys, cuz no one is looking for gear anymore. All you're there for is score. That's what it feels like to me but I usually only do lower keys at the begining of a content patch, for gear. People are also more laid back in lower keys as well.
naowh is completely right abt the difference between having a 2nd healer and a supp class like aug evoker, you'd not notice a difference with a 2nd healer, the shields and buffing to the tank/heals means infinitely more than a 2nd healer, rare dorki miss
Add seasonal affixes in to rotate in the same tier with Tyrannical and Fortified. That would give us a break from that constant swing while avoiding having seasonal affixes feel so monotonous.
I tried that in brackenhide and what happened was after I ran out of demon Hunter seals and casts started going off, the whole party except me wiped and ran back while I kept the pull in combat and they said “this is cursed” and then hearthed out
You could also absolutely have a cross pollinated system, similar to dinars, where if you get a raid item you can level it up with raid tokens or crests. The amount to level it up could be 10 weeks (for example) worth of raids or dungeons from heroic to mythic, and more depending if you picked up an lfr or normal raid item. Allows autonomy through a more deterministic, and earned, system thoughout multiple raid lockouts, whilst still having some rng since you still need to actually loot the item. Once you have it you can either go back to m+ or, if you're a raider, stay doing multiple raids. There are obvious downsides, like disincentivizing raiding for m+ but you could then tweak the costs in favour of raids, so that it's still more efficient to get it through raiding but would at least add avenues for m+ players to get the best loot. Or if this affects the RWF then don't switch this on until after it's over.
The irony of everybody dunking on BfA but then saying that their favourite season was during BfA is funny to me. I really think that the corruption system should have been attempted as an evergreen system kind of like a hack and slash affix system to have more customization than the current stat system.
Keys not depleting would not hurt pugs. It would save frustration and get more people involved/interested in higher play. As long as there is still an option to drop the key ilvl
I only like to play on ptr and tournament realm for m+. They offer the best version of the game. Vendors for gear, scaled gear, choose affixes, choose key level. Live issues are so lame.
They could make the crest exchange pouches Account bound instead of BoP. That would solve having too many on your mains while helping your alts. Still need to get the gear to upgrade. I feel like that would solve the crest issue.
Blizzard should try out non-depleting keys in this expac's "bonus season". Back in Legion we were able to repeatedly slam the same key over and over, it was changed because keys would eventually just die and you'd be stuck for the week. Now, the same issue wouldn't exist as we are able to simply lower the keystone level, or even reroll. It's all upside.
Two things I'd like are a non-ranked key run, where you get no score, no loot, but no deplete; and a double-down system, where you can choose either +1 bonus to key level or a reroll, but if you deplete you lose 2 levels.
Should keys deplete? Why not both? 1. Your standard key as it is now. 2. All dungeons get a second console. You get a dropdown menu to start a key at any level, up to one higher than the best group member has already achieved. Keys started this way give no loot, only score. You unlock this console for a dungeon by completing a standard +20 key (seperately for tyran and fort). This console is infinitely restartable (just like tournament realm keys). All the in-between options, like having 3 tries or so, in my view just combine the disadvantages of both systems as well.
Here's why keys shouldn't deplete at ANY level: When I pick the wrong person for my group I don't want to be punished. If I end up picking someone who is bad/toxic/not good enough/etc, I want to be able to kick them and start again at that same level. I don't want to push keys, I don't want to do a dungeon perfectly or optimally. I want to log on and do an m+ at a reasonable difficulty, and I don't want to have to sit in party finder for hours. I can go play EVE if I just wanted to look at a list all day. To put this another way: Blizzard devs stand before you: "We offer you no depletion or Random Q for Mythic. Choose what you will"
I think what Naowh was trying to get during the aug discussion is that healers are fucking garbage right now. No class except maybe Holy Paladin even has a single spell that even touches a tanks hp. Holy Word: Serenity does less healing than holy shock on average. Pres evoker's Living Flame costs 5.5k mana and heals for about the same as a regrowth initial hit with a 2 second cast time. That's more than a regrowth. Druids can kind of do it a bit but you're not bringing a druid healer if you're bringing a druid tank. Disc priest, Shaman and MW you basically may as well be playing without a healer except against rot damage at this point. Aug is the only reason healers are even remotely viable at ~30s, even the holy paladin is super reliant on it to do anything. Add to this all the dps nerfs they've given to healers on top of that that made 4dps keys be a thing last tier.
what would you think about a different version of MDI, that focuses more on the competition against another team than just on the dungeon? like a pick/ban phase for specs like in LoL, where each spec can only be played once per map. (obviously can only ban a limited amount of tanks/healers) and maybe also pick/ban for affixes, where there's a pool of affixes for the key and you ban 1/2 affixes that you don't want, and then pick 1/2 affixes that the enemy then has to deal with. so ppl would still run the same key on the same level, but now the teams actually interact with each other and thus you have a large variety in specs that you see, and the affixes are slightly different. also it should be illegal & enforced that you can not look at the enemy teams run, so that ppl dont slow down when they see the enemy has wiped.
actually, maybe it could be an idea for Blizzard to implement that 1 death of your team is shown to the enemy team every 60s. this way, if you have a really clean & fast run going, you maybe just suicide your tank and then insta res him again just to bait the enemy team to go slower, because they will think that you wiped when your tank died. however maybe Blizzard should show your boss kills to the enemy team to have more of a feeling of a race against each other, and to get at least a little bit of a grasp of how the enemy team is doing. this could also be used to throw off an enemy team e.g. by changing your route to do all trash first when that is not usual for the dungeon, then the enemy will think you are super slow and maybe slow down for safety when all you need to do is a few bosses and the key is over.
@@Koella94 While your ideas are kinda bad its a giga bad take to think that banning speccs is a good thing. i get what you are trying to achive but that forces players even more to play multiple speccs and its just gonna be a worse expierience for everyone involed for the watcher and the players themself. Most teams dont really look at the enemy they just play their key.
@@BPStyle89 well. a different type of skill & preparation would be needed than for previous MDIs. previously, you just prepare the best class combo, and then min-max every single dungeon. if that is disrupted more by the enemy team interfering with your spec picks, and possibly teams knowing less about the dungeons they will have to run for a match before-hand, that will now give teams that dont have as much time to min-max more chances. it would be more about who can come up with the best routes on the fly in any key with their given situation. i dont even think it would be much worse for competitors, and i think for watchers the experience would vastly improve. MDI was mostly boring to watch because you just see the same specs over and over and over again and it wasn't really a match against the enemy, you would just run the key and if you were faster than the enemy that you had literally 0 interaction with, you won. also if you watch back some MDI matches you absolutely notice the other team slowing down and play more safely when one team wiped, sometimes even so obvious that the casters were mentioning it. it would be dumb not to watch the enemy team when you're allowed to do so, you could literally hand away a free win by continuing to do risky pulls when you already won the match anyways due to the other team's wipe. anyways i think if MDI is brought back it needs to have more of a competitive feel, where really one team is matched against the other, and you need to make more spontaneous decisions (shotcalling), rather than just having pre-planned everything. if we want to watch teams just independently run dungeons without interacting, then TGP is the better format. but personally i enjoyed watching MDI a lot more than TGP, and would love to see it evolve into something actually esport-like.
@@Koella94 I do get your Point but i dont see it that way. preparing more speccs and more classes will always favor the players that have more time. i do think they need to change something in the format but for me MDI is the mastery of dungeons overall and so with what crazy pulls they can come up with. that ofc will favor seeing the same classes in a group comp. i dont think forcing players to play worse speccs will be better for the format but maybe locking in 1 Comp per team that they have to play for the series. like prot war is better for the first 2 keys ind the match against the other team but vengeanc is alot better for the last one cause of pull 3. so if the lose 1 map the other team has a big advantage. but i dont think banning speccs and classes is the right way to do it. m+ came out of challange mode wich was be as quick as possible in the dungeon wich should still be the endgoal of the format IMO,
@@BPStyle89 well, its debatable. players at that level usually have a solid grasp on a multitude of classes for their role anyways, and the time it takes to really min-max something should not be underestimated. M+ came from challenge mode, yeah, but it has changed significantly. TGP reflects much better what M+ is nowadays than MDI: yes, you have a timer, but you dont care about how fast you go as long as youre within that timer. your main objective is to survive the dungeon, and you play just riskily enough to complete the dungeon within the timer. MDI is a lot closer to the old challenge mode than actual M+, true, it's basically a speedrun of a somewhat-fixed difficulty. i guess thats where the difference in our interests lie: you would like to see the dungeons perfected, a speedrun of them with insane pulls that are flawlessly executed. this format wouldn't even really need a Team v Team match style, it could be held similar to TGP. what i would like to see is more mistakes, more drama, teams being forced into bad situations and seeing how well they handle them. seeing how versatile teams are, as opposed to how well they can execute 1 thing they practised 1000 times. more playing against the enemy team rather than just alongside them. maybe spec pick/bans arent the best idea to achieve that, maybe Blizzard could implement some way to mess with your enemy, like in Tetric Effect Battles, where you play your own game but then you also send stuff over to your enemy to try and make them fail.
What about all keystones above a certain level are just blank keystones that you can pop in to any dungeon. Like above 20s you're just doing it for rating. So why not all keystones 21 and up can be used to start any dungeon?
on the topic of M+ keys and potential fixes, how would you guys feel about keys not limiting you to a dungeon but still have the same progress/depletion system? you can pick which +30 etc u want to practice on live while players doing lower keys the game doesn't really change for them?
Just ends with everyone farming the key that has their loot or the easiest run for weekly. You want to do 10 of the easiest key every week for the whole expansion?
@@GSol17so exactly the same thing that happens now in pugs? I can guarantee you people just search for the specific dungeon they want for loot and they'll do what they find the easiest for weekly vault through searching
@@GSol17 Thats pretty much how it works anyway right? People did it in S1 with SMBG, they did it in S2 with Underrot. People will always gravitate to the easiest key possible. Keystones being non dungeon specific still requires you to do a balance of them to generate Io, and stops the horrific reroll meta in the 25+ space.
it will be very nice to have a key with 2 charge, so you can try and make another try before deplete, and every news key u get with 2 charges instead of freeze the key
This is something missed by almost all high m+ pushers. A lot of people just push to whatever gives the best vault then a few push to 20's for portals. The people pushing beyond 20 are way less yet all have the same idea that everyone plays like them and has the same motivation to pus in the entire pool below them.
There should not be a timer under mythic 17. Mythic 17 is the first level that drops hero track. My opinion is M+ should start at the current 17 and all dungeon difficulties should be reworked so M0 is the current 16 and there are 3 levels before (dungeon finder, normal & heroic) with larger more meaningful steps between.
In regards to keys, I feel like keys under 20 and under shouldn't deplete, but if they're adamant on all keys depleting then it would nice if you had 3 tries at a key before it would deplete. In addition, I think it would be an improvement over the current system, if when you timed your key, you would have the option of 3 different keys for your next key.
Simple fix for the key issue. Allow a key to be "frozen" it locks it at the key level, say 25, for 5 attempts unless you unfreeze it early. Completing it does not reward score, but it allows you to practice the key at the level you get it at while not allowing for infinite attempts with no repurcussions.
The cap on the key reroll currency should be like 75 or so and you get maybe 20 or 25 of the currency for gaining score something maybe would be cool mid season atleast maybe add it on 10.2.5, I play around the 25/26key level and would be nice in my opinion
I like Max's take about MoP. It felt so fun raiding as a Prot Pally at that point being really high in damage (I don't remember exactly on the meters I was) and topping the healing meters.
Why is nobody talking about rating/i.o score per spec? Wouldn't it be much more balanced for all feral druids to compete in the same pool? This would eliminate fotm rerolling.
just remove the dungeon restriction from a key, but the rest of it works as it does now. so your key just opens all dungeons. you gotta go to each place "once" anyways for score on fort and tyran, once you did that, ppl that only do 20s for vault are only spamming one dungeon anyways, so it makes their life easier.. ppl that push low keys and cap at 15s have a much easier time completing their score archievement too. so idk. you can go wherever you want, depleting "punishment" still exists in a way but is less annoying. well you can still chain 28 freeholds but at least you gotta earn your way back by timing 27s and you cant go there for free.. plus you dont have another dumb currency that solves "flawed" design
If you fail to even finish a key you should be punished more but if you at least complete the key you should have the option to go again. On completion if you fail the timer you have the option to get back the exact same key you just ran to go again or have it be rerolled into something else. Also completing x number of dungeons within say 5 key levels of yours will allow you to go to a NPC and change it into a key of your choice. Lastly I really think there should be away to bump your key's level up if you time someone elses key that is higher then yours. Not sure if it should be a 1 to 1 or say 50% of the differences or something. Feels bad timing a 24 then seeing you have a 21 in your bags that is basically dead until next week. Ask a 100 M+ plays how they could make things better and you would likely get a 100 different answers some of them good and these are just my half baked ideas.
Keys should never deplete. We have already wasted and invested our TIME. We don't need depletion and we don't need random dungeons. The objections to this are ridiculous. * I met friends doing lower keys - that's great, you can still choose to do them * If I could pick my key/level, I'd just do it constantly until I got it and that's not healthy for me - your lack of self-control over your life shouldn't impact me * I need to be punished for failing - you are, you've lost time, the only currency you have in life
They should take the Torghast end of Shadowlands selection of Key level - do away with the Key item completely. So when you enter Mythic mode, it will ask you what level of M+ you want to enter with (like Torghast did) and the levels would be unlocked by the completing the level before it, if you 2+ or 3+, same M+ system applies to how many levels are unlocked. People could then go to any dungeon they wanted to play, form the group, select the difficulty and then enter. The dungeon timer would start as it does now by activating the key pedestal. If you fail the key, you could have the reward system be the same as it is now (you get an item and a vault slot) but don't unlock the next level. If people want to drop it down a difficult level, they can, if they want to try and time it (if they failed) they can. If you royaly FU, you can exit and restart the dungeon as much as you like, but ofc not finishing the dungeon you get no rewards, but you get to progress and try again at the tough bit you messed up the first time. Best of both worlds.
Here's my problem with the whole raid and M+ mixed gearing problem: people who want to play M+ don't want to raid, raiders don't want to M+, and neither should be forced to do so. I think the idea of having item levels or some sort of power boost when wearing gear from the content that you're doing is the most sensible and easiest fix to the problem because you're encouraged to do what you want to do. I understand the concern that people feel like that might kill raid, but then the question we should be asking is: why can't raid prop itself up on it's own "fun" without having ridiculous items like Beacon that become required to be able to play at the highest levels of M+? Again, from Max and Dratnos perspective that could very well be the End of WoW, but for the overall health of the game it's definitely time to consider how raid and M+ are structured against each other, maybe even consider having raidungeons that can be completed by 5 or 10 players instead of 20.
That's just not true though, there is an absolutely massive overlap between people who enjoy both raiding and doing m+. There is a subset of m+ players who don't raid and vice versa, but they're really outliers - and by making it harder for people to get gear relevant to raid outside of raid, you're going to kill their gearing process by splitting it in two
Why ONLY 8 dungeons? We have this immense dungeon pool to choose from and part of why M+ gets old is you're running the same old key all the time. Legion is the standard when it comes to the number of dungeons. Why are there not 12 dungeons? like wtf.
if having a support class, then make M+ 6man? idk I'm super casual, so my opinion don't matter 1😭 love M+ though you guys are 🔥🔥🔥 keep up the good work!
i was against increasing the m+ group size at first, but it would potentially solve a lot of issues. better dps to tank/heal/support ratio. gives the healer more to heal without the need for external systems. gives the group a chance at more raid buffs. idk it's growing on me as a solution. blizz needs to make at least two more supports specs asap tho if it's here to stay
I have been posting for a 6 man group since aug came out. They need to make at least 2 more support classes, swap over to 6 man groups at least for a trial patch and see how it goes. Why not?
@@georgeh2299 One more potential dumbass to be boosted and/or screw up a key. There's a reason some people want 10-man raids and/or flexible raid size in Mythic instead of 20. People don't like relying on others for their success, especially if it has to be 30 to 50 minutes of consistent performance.
With regards to keys, each key should have 3 attempts. Additionally if they added a currency you should get it for completing keys 20+. Then the vendor for that currency gives you 3 options for a key. Turn in a 20+ key with X currency to either push the key level up 1, exchange for a specific dungeon of that same level, or reset attempts on that key. This could realistically be expanded to all levels with the amount of currency needed growing exponentially with key level, so that running lower level keys would be inefficient for gaining enough currency for the higher level keys.
As a KSM pugging pleb my 2 cents is that keys should have like 5 more min. I.E. bracken hide is 30 min (not real numbers prob), change it to 35. If you do it in 18min its +3. 23min is +2. 30min is +1. 35min is +0. Incomplete or going over the 35min is still -1. As for currency to buy keys, use the crests that we already are getting anyway, make it a choice to upgrade gear or upgrade/buy a key. Maybe lock it behind KSM or something. Idk just some thoughts
If they are going to let us gear our alts there needs to be a threshold you need to reach before you can send things from your main to your alt, otherwise we have this situation where players who can't play their main sending crests to their alts they won't be able to play either.
I really glad I started learning tank in bfa season4, it feel so rewarding to manage your route and fix the mistake with awakening, even though prot pally was not the best at the time. Then we got prideful in next season which is totally opposite, I think people who like prideful or say it’s a positive affix just simply don’t play tank.
![[ TEASER ] เงาะป่า - วงL.กฮ. | TMG RECORD](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/M4ObdFfcPww/mqdefault.jpg)
The thing about keys depleting that affects the under-21’s, in my opinion, is that it imposes a mentality of inviting people that are overqualified for key level out of fear of depletion. Not only do you waste the time you spent in the depleted key, but you’re set back further than when you entered.
This 100% this!! Add to that the fact that the keys are random so if you are really going for an item/specific dungeon it s just suuuch a slog fest. If i can run underrot +20 over and over i really dint give a shit we wipe on second boss…
Agreed. Additionally, I think this would remove a lot of the toxicity that exists in the m+ pugging scene. It's normally the person whose key gets depleted that starts raging. If there was no deplete then it's frustrating but you just go again with another group.
as well the pugs who didnt put in the key they dont leave after a first failed pull...@@Unshou
@@Avdbz yeah, good point.
I really appreciate Dorki keeping pugs and lower skilled groups in mind and thinking about how changes would affect them.
With Mythic plus key rewards for timing a 20 you should get an individual keystone for that dungeon that you can then level up. So you can hold all dungeon keys at once and just pick and choose what you've done. It scales to your highest key of that dungeon. The key will deplete at every failure but will save at every break point (20/25/30)
that sounds interesting
Same idea as me, but I would rather put another console in instead of having to carry tons of keys around. This would also make downgrading possible (e.g. helping a friend to achieve a +24, even though your key is at +27 and theirs at +20.)
I’d love the amount of gold I could make selling these.
Imagine this m+ system:
Your team is good enough to just +1 a dungeon. GOOD JOB Now your key is 1 level higher AND you can CHOOSE your dungeon at the end of the run or randomize it.
-- That’s it. You did something good and you are rewarded.
Now if you FAIL:
Your keystone has 3 charges. If you want to restart, it goes down a charge. If you lose all your charges, your key goes down by 1 and its randomized to any other dungeon.
---This way there is at least a penalty but you had 3 chances to try.
FUN?
For people who don't want to play the other pillar of PvE you could bring back the Dinar system, but like this: clearing all dungeons at lvl 10 gets you a dinar as well a clearing all dungeons at lvl 15. These dinar that you earn from M+ are used to purchase items from the raid loot table. Clearing the raid on normal difficulty gets you a dinar as well as clearing the raid on heroic difficulty gets you a dinar. These dinar that you earn from raiding are used to purchase something off the M+ loot table. These could not be earned before maybe week four or six, to protect the early cutting edge scene. If you met the requirements before the unlock week, it's in your bags when you log in during the unlock week. Earning a dinar gives you a breadcrumb quest to the vendor.
Naowh literally solved m+ key depletion. Keep depletes, but give 1x currency for any timed key. When you have 5x currency, you get to set your keystone to any dungeon and any level you want.
Incentivizes the big bois to help out the lower brackets to get their reroll tokens, and I don't think anyone in the lower brackets would be upset about being able to easily target ~15% of their total keys for the season.
What a great podcast. Love having Naowh on the show. Really loved hearing all the insight on M+. Keep these discussions coming. I love all the long form discussions.
Naowh's take on m+ GEARING is POG.
I like the idea, but 20 keys are way too easy compared to mythic raid. Youd need to complete like a 25 key at the very least for say 450 gear.
@@Chaplin097 but it is irrelevant which one is harder, because I think the main point was to create a system where gear from m+ would be only better in m+, not in raid, so there is no advantage of getting easier gear from m+ and using it in raid. Therefore people who play only raid or only m+ are not at disadvantage against people who play both at the highest level.
@@Chaplin09725 is way too low it should be title range.
I think capping it at 25 is unfair.
Just when .5 patch comes out figure out what keys top 0.2% players are doing (Lets say double the title range). And allow those ppl to buy 450 gear.
I might be biased, I am not a hardcore player I play only a few hours a week but I get title each season I try to. Got 3700 this season, with pushing keys maybe once a week, I just feel it would be unfair to raiders if you could get 450 gear doing 25s bc I've done 25s this season on 4 different tanks while only having a few hours of playtime on each of them this season.
It needs to be fair to the Mythic raider, so I think that gear should be reserved for the ppl competing for the title.
So somewhere in the 0.2-0.3% of the M+ players. If you do 25s its gonna be 2-3% about 10x as many ppl. And with the extra rewards it might even hit 5%. It should be at a point where mythic raiders dont feel like its worth pushing m+ for the ilvl, but low enough that someone who wants to compete for title can compete fairly against the raider. If you cant get 0.25% without the extra 5ilvls you wont get into 0.1% with the 5ilvls. But if you can get 0.1% with max ilvl you will be able to get 0.25 with 5ilvls less that 5ilvls is usually worth 1.5 key levels mathematically.
@@tommy4862i think there should just be a vendor where you can buy all your 450 gear from raid but it should only be available after the .5 patch and to the M+ players who are doing top 0.2% of keys (27-28 this season).
Maybe that mythic raid gear is 450 ilvl but if you use it in heroic raid or open world it scales down to heroic version.
So you essentially have mythic raid gear in M+ but if you use it outside its heroic. That sounds extremely fair to me
@@Chaplin097 The only reason keys are easier than raid is that I only need to organise 4 other monkeys over 19
The whole augmentation conversation is because of the "play safe big IO" meta. Naowh is right, living is what gets you the IO, not damage, in most cases
Awesome pods, really enjoying the new wow content and takes
Thundering, Beguiling, Infested, definitely made me do less keys than my normal. Love the podcast, thanks for having Naowh on
Just wanted to say what a game changer it is having this content on Spotify
funny how many people hated corruptions back in the day, on streams all communities said that corruptions made the game worse, yet here everyone agrees that they still had the most fun playing with them :)
corruptions wasnt bad, its the way you get them that was bad imo
Targeting specific keys would help to push io for your lower players as well, say for example the only key I needed was a FH 20 and i Que for 10 different pug but never get taken. Where if I could force my key to go to the dungeon I need to improve my score at least that way I can target my io increases over just praying my key rerolls to the right dungeon or someone takes me in their group
That argument between Naowh and others arguing about WHY and HOW MUCH is Augvoker powerful and mandatory was in a way not "fun" to hear. Naowh was right on point about why Augvoker is literally mandatory and helps not just the entire group but mostly Tanks to stay alive and Healer to keep everyone alive.
And others kept arguing about mobs HP and damage that's already built-in into M+ key scaling.
I love how Dratnos has I-just-heard-a-dirty-joke-resting-face
holy fuck naowh is a chad, absolute insane galaxy brain 5Head takes. What a man
Problem with split gearing like Naowh described here is if you are someone that plays both M+ and Raid, you will essentially need to gear twice. Your high level M+ gear will be much weaker than the raid gear that ‘scales’ in raid and visa versa. Being fully geared in raid and then doing the lowest DPS in a key would be a real feel bad situation that this would create. This would essentially double the gearing requirement and lead to less people doing both.
Adding a positive affix like encrypted or shrouded back would be great. IT would be as much to "learn" as you get when you change from bursting or bolstering or volcanic. The rotation after the first rotation you know how the affix works
If you're doing a currency, give (a limited amount of) more currency the lower you end up going compared to your max, giving a once per day bonus for bringing new people's keys up.
I think a nice middleground would be, any timed key allows you to reroll your key. Not just keys equal or higher than your current key
You could even take it a step further, and rerolling your key brings it to the level of the key you just timed (if its higher than your current).
I think this would be mostly helpful for alts...or if your key was just depleted, you could join a pug and get a key of equal level back if it was timed
@@ericanderson2685man I'd love this change specifically. Doing late night keys on alts thar have no io but are at minimum the same ilvl my main was when doing those keys originally but rarely getting taken sucked. And when alting I didnt wanna slowly push my own key. I did end up usually finding a friend to join some higher keys thru undergeared and did fine but this change woulda been golden. Crazy how people think I had be to 420ilvl to tank/heal a weekly 20 key even early/midway into season 1.. like man...
I feel like Dratnos is baked as fuck
One thing about depleting that is kind of hard to quantify, but why I am personally a big fan of the "not deplete" argument is quite simply TIME itself. Even outside the confines of the game, time is the most valuable and ultimately finite resource every human has. We charge for it at work, we offer it to the activities and people we find valuable, so the idea that this game that I am already giving my fundamentally finite time to, would then impose a time punishment , is one that does not sit well with me, especially considering that we've already attained the said key to begin with. Surpassing the skill check blizzard has put in place of obtaining that key.
Dorki's takes lmaooo
After finishing a key make the keyholder choose between 3 keys instead of getting a random one would be a good option and give keys an attempt of 2 just to see how it plays out.
Small changes, big impact
Idea for MDI, ”King of the hill-format”. Lean in to the undeniable truth that echo and maybe 1 more team is going to compete and every other team is just cannon fodder in the current format.
Making it so if you wanted to challenge Echo, you could have the advantage of choosing the dungeon and affix. It is the only realistic way it would be exciting to view or for any team to catch up is to limit the practice for echo, if a team can practice one map to perfection and have echo do it”on the fly” would make it fair
I'm already gonna miss this podcast during rwf, please keep it up this is quality content
A point I always want to make with Prideful - that was a great affix for lower keys and players that play less, and could have still been really good if it received major tuning to its scaling. That thing just scaled absolutely out of control on higher keys, which ruined it for that section of players, but that could have been avoided with better numbers no?
Here's my personal reasoning for being against depleting: depleting a key often times just ends my week of playing the game. As a pretty casual player who doesn't play the game for a job, I enjoy doing keys, but if I'm doing say a 16 for aspect crests and some edge lord comes in and bricks the key by leaving because someone flamed someone else my week is just over. As a dps player I can pretty much only do my own keys. Sitting on a 15 is just a dead key that nobody wants to do. And I'm just so demoralized that I usually just decide I'm done playing for the week and ultimately since I have the KSM mount, I'm probably just not playing until next patch. On top of that, it pretty much forces me to only accept over qualified players, even though I'd love to give newer players a chance once in a while.
1:13:00 or so - About Naowh wishing to not have to do Mythic raiding to get best gear for M+
They have a system now with Crafted gear for PvP. You can add both the Enchanted Crests (to increase ilvl in non-PvP content) but to also add the PvP marks (Crest of Honor and Trophy of Conquest ) to make the items get the boosted ilvl in Battlegrounds and Arena.
Just add a system where you can use tokens from your preferred content that let you boost ilvl of an item in Raid or M+.
For example: I get a Beacon from LFR Sark that I want to use in M+. I use some Valor to buy an item-upgrade Token that I can then use to give this LFR Beacon boosted ilvl in M+.
It will still have the same low ilvl in Raids and PvP, but now I'm using M+ currency (and possibly M+ rating) to boost its ilvl in M+. Same with M+ items in Raids, where you can get your Irideus Fragment from a +5 HoA and spend Crests from the Raid to upgrade its ilvl in Raid only. It would still be very meh in M+ due to low ilvl and I would like to keep gearing through M+ for a better version if M+ is what I like to do, but I don't won't be an extremely lucky Raider to get the 447 Bile-Stained Crawg Tusks in my Vault if I can slowly upgrade one from a +2 Underrot.
Just buy an item with currency from your type of content (Valor from M+, Crests from Raid, Conquest from PvP), then either use it on your preferred item like how we add sockets or enchants. Or if BLizz want to keep Professions super relevant put up a Recrafting order (the same profession that can craft an item-type would also recraft, so JC can recraft Rings and Necks to add this new token, Inscription recrafts Staves, etc) and now you don't have to push 10x +20 keys every week, or try to clear Mythic raids, hoping to be lucky in your Vault.
Naowh easily has the best takes in wow. His opinions are well thought out. He’s honest about how things play in all levels of the game.
Are... are they talking about D4 sigils and sigil powder?
55:30 I did this with a group of buddies. It was only a 20, we were carrying a rat. But I sent a full fishface route, went hard left, after first boss went left again, then since you cant do the skip between gutshot and treemouth we pulled that. I said no one like stinkbreath, so I jumped down into the slimes, and pull through the forest onto Treemouth. Then just did the gauntlet like normal, however, fun fact, the slimes under the bridge respawn...so we had to rescue someone and ended up pulling stinkbreath anyways...None of them knew it was coming, was glorious
Just curious, whats a rat? Boostee?
@@ergodoodle1951Yeah! Just a word some people use to describe a toon that cant carry its own weight due to gear issues
crazy concept, old dgs have the best seasonal affix from that expansion like if its halls from shadowlands that dg only has relics, or freehold with s4 affix or something, i feel like that could REALLY spice up the dgs being brought back, ofc they would need to set a random good affix to like scarlet monestary or somethin but i feel like that could be sick to bring back and spice up
It is exactly the same situation as rogue in BFA and fire mage in s4 BFA, and anyone who says it isn't is coping. Fire mage was doing like 8x the dmg of anything else, and that allowed you to bring the rogue in s4 (where you might have just done 3x rogue in season 2 and 3) because rogue was just that much better than anything else you could possibly put in the 3rd slot. It is insane to say that ther has never been a more imbalanced class, it is just that you couldnt directly feel the advantage your character was gaining with the other two options in this list.
Dorki talks about MDI prison because they need to figure "this one big pull" out and prepare for the push competition/trials. But imo its only because it's a competition where they need to win... read (objective goals). Most people on live have much more personal (subjective) goals so at some point you just stop. You can stop. But for someone in MDI prison they can't stop without disbanding the team.
Season 1 of dragonflight was one of the best, balance was good, old dungeons weren't too complicated and the df dungeons were complicated but great and fun to grind
On the subject of fixing "having to fish for a specific key for 10 hours" problem
What about adding key fragments. If you complete a rot 20 key for example, you get an amount of rot fragments + some other random fragments
The size of the key decide how many fragments you get, and when you reroll the key at the end of the dungeon, you can if you have enough, insert these fragments to guarantee what it'll reroll to
I appreciate the lack of preview!
12 dungeons back in BFA was crazy!!!
Lower key runner would benefit even more of the no depletion to protect against key quitters etc which I would assume is more frequent the lower U go
I would say it is more frequent in the higher keys, cuz no one is looking for gear anymore. All you're there for is score. That's what it feels like to me but I usually only do lower keys at the begining of a content patch, for gear. People are also more laid back in lower keys as well.
naowh is completely right abt the difference between having a 2nd healer and a supp class like aug evoker, you'd not notice a difference with a 2nd healer, the shields and buffing to the tank/heals means infinitely more than a 2nd healer, rare dorki miss
Prideful was when they decided to”ApE is not fun”
Maybe higher keys that drop mythic level gear drops an item that’ll upgrade your heroic items to mythic track
Add seasonal affixes in to rotate in the same tier with Tyrannical and Fortified. That would give us a break from that constant swing while avoiding having seasonal affixes feel so monotonous.
I tried that in brackenhide and what happened was after I ran out of demon Hunter seals and casts started going off, the whole party except me wiped and ran back while I kept the pull in combat and they said “this is cursed” and then hearthed out
new 3k, or 3.2k io reward : keystone currency to keep it the same place
You could also absolutely have a cross pollinated system, similar to dinars, where if you get a raid item you can level it up with raid tokens or crests. The amount to level it up could be 10 weeks (for example) worth of raids or dungeons from heroic to mythic, and more depending if you picked up an lfr or normal raid item. Allows autonomy through a more deterministic, and earned, system thoughout multiple raid lockouts, whilst still having some rng since you still need to actually loot the item. Once you have it you can either go back to m+ or, if you're a raider, stay doing multiple raids. There are obvious downsides, like disincentivizing raiding for m+ but you could then tweak the costs in favour of raids, so that it's still more efficient to get it through raiding but would at least add avenues for m+ players to get the best loot. Or if this affects the RWF then don't switch this on until after it's over.
The irony of everybody dunking on BfA but then saying that their favourite season was during BfA is funny to me. I really think that the corruption system should have been attempted as an evergreen system kind of like a hack and slash affix system to have more customization than the current stat system.
Keys not depleting would not hurt pugs. It would save frustration and get more people involved/interested in higher play. As long as there is still an option to drop the key ilvl
I only like to play on ptr and tournament realm for m+. They offer the best version of the game.
Vendors for gear, scaled gear, choose affixes, choose key level. Live issues are so lame.
The only thing I would change from m+ is I would make the key dungeon agnostic (available for any dungeon) and keeping the depletion .
Drat looks fucking baked
The whole alt friendly debate was somet6hing I wish more would have.
29:00 best take Max has ever had
They could make the crest exchange pouches Account bound instead of BoP. That would solve having too many on your mains while helping your alts. Still need to get the gear to upgrade. I feel like that would solve the crest issue.
Naowh with the unbelievably based takes. Dorki trying to argue with him about Aug being OP is straight cringe.
Blizzard should try out non-depleting keys in this expac's "bonus season".
Back in Legion we were able to repeatedly slam the same key over and over, it was changed because keys would eventually just die and you'd be stuck for the week. Now, the same issue wouldn't exist as we are able to simply lower the keystone level, or even reroll. It's all upside.
What? If you failed a key early legion the key depleted and you had to do a dungeon for no rewards to reactivate a dead key
Great pod boys keep it up!
Two things I'd like are a non-ranked key run, where you get no score, no loot, but no deplete; and a double-down system, where you can choose either +1 bonus to key level or a reroll, but if you deplete you lose 2 levels.
Pugs would definitely benefit from not having random players deplete their keys lol
Get gamer grandma on here!
Should keys deplete? Why not both?
1. Your standard key as it is now.
2. All dungeons get a second console. You get a dropdown menu to start a key at any level, up to one higher than the best group member has already achieved. Keys started this way give no loot, only score. You unlock this console for a dungeon by completing a standard +20 key (seperately for tyran and fort). This console is infinitely restartable (just like tournament realm keys).
All the in-between options, like having 3 tries or so, in my view just combine the disadvantages of both systems as well.
Here's why keys shouldn't deplete at ANY level: When I pick the wrong person for my group I don't want to be punished. If I end up picking someone who is bad/toxic/not good enough/etc, I want to be able to kick them and start again at that same level.
I don't want to push keys, I don't want to do a dungeon perfectly or optimally. I want to log on and do an m+ at a reasonable difficulty, and I don't want to have to sit in party finder for hours. I can go play EVE if I just wanted to look at a list all day.
To put this another way:
Blizzard devs stand before you: "We offer you no depletion or Random Q for Mythic. Choose what you will"
@Dratnos I DID play less coz' of thundering. That affix made me question do I want to even play the game. Same goes for Zskarn mythic prog.
I think what Naowh was trying to get during the aug discussion is that healers are fucking garbage right now. No class except maybe Holy Paladin even has a single spell that even touches a tanks hp. Holy Word: Serenity does less healing than holy shock on average. Pres evoker's Living Flame costs 5.5k mana and heals for about the same as a regrowth initial hit with a 2 second cast time. That's more than a regrowth. Druids can kind of do it a bit but you're not bringing a druid healer if you're bringing a druid tank. Disc priest, Shaman and MW you basically may as well be playing without a healer except against rot damage at this point. Aug is the only reason healers are even remotely viable at ~30s, even the holy paladin is super reliant on it to do anything. Add to this all the dps nerfs they've given to healers on top of that that made 4dps keys be a thing last tier.
what would you think about a different version of MDI, that focuses more on the competition against another team than just on the dungeon?
like a pick/ban phase for specs like in LoL, where each spec can only be played once per map. (obviously can only ban a limited amount of tanks/healers)
and maybe also pick/ban for affixes, where there's a pool of affixes for the key and you ban 1/2 affixes that you don't want, and then pick 1/2 affixes that the enemy then has to deal with.
so ppl would still run the same key on the same level, but now the teams actually interact with each other and thus you have a large variety in specs that you see, and the affixes are slightly different.
also it should be illegal & enforced that you can not look at the enemy teams run, so that ppl dont slow down when they see the enemy has wiped.
actually, maybe it could be an idea for Blizzard to implement that 1 death of your team is shown to the enemy team every 60s.
this way, if you have a really clean & fast run going, you maybe just suicide your tank and then insta res him again just to bait the enemy team to go slower, because they will think that you wiped when your tank died.
however maybe Blizzard should show your boss kills to the enemy team to have more of a feeling of a race against each other, and to get at least a little bit of a grasp of how the enemy team is doing. this could also be used to throw off an enemy team e.g. by changing your route to do all trash first when that is not usual for the dungeon, then the enemy will think you are super slow and maybe slow down for safety when all you need to do is a few bosses and the key is over.
@@Koella94 While your ideas are kinda bad its a giga bad take to think that banning speccs is a good thing. i get what you are trying to achive but that forces players even more to play multiple speccs and its just gonna be a worse expierience for everyone involed for the watcher and the players themself. Most teams dont really look at the enemy they just play their key.
@@BPStyle89 well. a different type of skill & preparation would be needed than for previous MDIs. previously, you just prepare the best class combo, and then min-max every single dungeon. if that is disrupted more by the enemy team interfering with your spec picks, and possibly teams knowing less about the dungeons they will have to run for a match before-hand, that will now give teams that dont have as much time to min-max more chances.
it would be more about who can come up with the best routes on the fly in any key with their given situation.
i dont even think it would be much worse for competitors, and i think for watchers the experience would vastly improve. MDI was mostly boring to watch because you just see the same specs over and over and over again and it wasn't really a match against the enemy, you would just run the key and if you were faster than the enemy that you had literally 0 interaction with, you won.
also if you watch back some MDI matches you absolutely notice the other team slowing down and play more safely when one team wiped, sometimes even so obvious that the casters were mentioning it. it would be dumb not to watch the enemy team when you're allowed to do so, you could literally hand away a free win by continuing to do risky pulls when you already won the match anyways due to the other team's wipe.
anyways i think if MDI is brought back it needs to have more of a competitive feel, where really one team is matched against the other, and you need to make more spontaneous decisions (shotcalling), rather than just having pre-planned everything.
if we want to watch teams just independently run dungeons without interacting, then TGP is the better format. but personally i enjoyed watching MDI a lot more than TGP, and would love to see it evolve into something actually esport-like.
@@Koella94 I do get your Point but i dont see it that way. preparing more speccs and more classes will always favor the players that have more time.
i do think they need to change something in the format but for me MDI is the mastery of dungeons overall and so with what crazy pulls they can come up with. that ofc will favor seeing the same classes in a group comp.
i dont think forcing players to play worse speccs will be better for the format but maybe locking in 1 Comp per team that they have to play for the series. like prot war is better for the first 2 keys ind the match against the other team but vengeanc is alot better for the last one cause of pull 3. so if the lose 1 map the other team has a big advantage.
but i dont think banning speccs and classes is the right way to do it. m+ came out of challange mode wich was be as quick as possible in the dungeon wich should still be the endgoal of the format IMO,
@@BPStyle89 well, its debatable. players at that level usually have a solid grasp on a multitude of classes for their role anyways, and the time it takes to really min-max something should not be underestimated.
M+ came from challenge mode, yeah, but it has changed significantly. TGP reflects much better what M+ is nowadays than MDI: yes, you have a timer, but you dont care about how fast you go as long as youre within that timer. your main objective is to survive the dungeon, and you play just riskily enough to complete the dungeon within the timer.
MDI is a lot closer to the old challenge mode than actual M+, true, it's basically a speedrun of a somewhat-fixed difficulty.
i guess thats where the difference in our interests lie: you would like to see the dungeons perfected, a speedrun of them with insane pulls that are flawlessly executed. this format wouldn't even really need a Team v Team match style, it could be held similar to TGP.
what i would like to see is more mistakes, more drama, teams being forced into bad situations and seeing how well they handle them. seeing how versatile teams are, as opposed to how well they can execute 1 thing they practised 1000 times. more playing against the enemy team rather than just alongside them.
maybe spec pick/bans arent the best idea to achieve that, maybe Blizzard could implement some way to mess with your enemy, like in Tetric Effect Battles, where you play your own game but then you also send stuff over to your enemy to try and make them fail.
What about all keystones above a certain level are just blank keystones that you can pop in to any dungeon. Like above 20s you're just doing it for rating. So why not all keystones 21 and up can be used to start any dungeon?
on the topic of M+ keys and potential fixes, how would you guys feel about keys not limiting you to a dungeon but still have the same progress/depletion system? you can pick which +30 etc u want to practice on live while players doing lower keys the game doesn't really change for them?
Just ends with everyone farming the key that has their loot or the easiest run for weekly. You want to do 10 of the easiest key every week for the whole expansion?
@@GSol17so exactly the same thing that happens now in pugs? I can guarantee you people just search for the specific dungeon they want for loot and they'll do what they find the easiest for weekly vault through searching
@@GSol17 Thats pretty much how it works anyway right? People did it in S1 with SMBG, they did it in S2 with Underrot. People will always gravitate to the easiest key possible. Keystones being non dungeon specific still requires you to do a balance of them to generate Io, and stops the horrific reroll meta in the 25+ space.
it will be very nice to have a key with 2 charge, so you can try and make another try before deplete, and every news key u get with 2 charges instead of freeze the key
I dont push anything higher than a 20. If there was something you get if ypu do 21s+ like a currency to add tertiary to gear, I'd totally participate
This is something missed by almost all high m+ pushers. A lot of people just push to whatever gives the best vault then a few push to 20's for portals. The people pushing beyond 20 are way less yet all have the same idea that everyone plays like them and has the same motivation to pus in the entire pool below them.
RIP dorki, apparently not important enough to be on the thumbnail
There should not be a timer under mythic 17. Mythic 17 is the first level that drops hero track.
My opinion is M+ should start at the current 17 and all dungeon difficulties should be reworked so M0 is the current 16 and there are 3 levels before (dungeon finder, normal & heroic) with larger more meaningful steps between.
In regards to keys, I feel like keys under 20 and under shouldn't deplete, but if they're adamant on all keys depleting then it would nice if you had 3 tries at a key before it would deplete.
In addition, I think it would be an improvement over the current system, if when you timed your key, you would have the option of 3 different keys for your next key.
If you wanted to allow a key retry you could add an option to remove the gear/crests given at the end
Simple fix for the key issue. Allow a key to be "frozen" it locks it at the key level, say 25, for 5 attempts unless you unfreeze it early. Completing it does not reward score, but it allows you to practice the key at the level you get it at while not allowing for infinite attempts with no repurcussions.
50:59, bring out a single boss raid 😎 with mega dungeons?
how about, once you time a 20 or 21 key or something, you gain the ability to turn any keystone you have into that specific dungeon you timed.
The cap on the key reroll currency should be like 75 or so and you get maybe 20 or 25 of the currency for gaining score something maybe would be cool mid season atleast maybe add it on 10.2.5, I play around the 25/26key level and would be nice in my opinion
I like Max's take about MoP. It felt so fun raiding as a Prot Pally at that point being really high in damage (I don't remember exactly on the meters I was) and topping the healing meters.
Why is nobody talking about rating/i.o score per spec?
Wouldn't it be much more balanced for all feral druids to compete in the same pool?
This would eliminate fotm rerolling.
Keys should have 3-5 charges.
Wrath to retail gold is like 90x . So 1 mill is like 90mill approx
Is the audio super low for anyone else ?? I have to crank it in my headphones for it to work
Wake me up when Dorki has a good take.
just remove the dungeon restriction from a key, but the rest of it works as it does now. so your key just opens all dungeons. you gotta go to each place "once" anyways for score on fort and tyran, once you did that, ppl that only do 20s for vault are only spamming one dungeon anyways, so it makes their life easier..
ppl that push low keys and cap at 15s have a much easier time completing their score archievement too. so idk.
you can go wherever you want, depleting "punishment" still exists in a way but is less annoying. well you can still chain 28 freeholds but at least you gotta earn your way back by timing 27s and you cant go there for free.. plus you dont have another dumb currency that solves "flawed" design
If you fail to even finish a key you should be punished more but if you at least complete the key you should have the option to go again. On completion if you fail the timer you have the option to get back the exact same key you just ran to go again or have it be rerolled into something else. Also completing x number of dungeons within say 5 key levels of yours will allow you to go to a NPC and change it into a key of your choice. Lastly I really think there should be away to bump your key's level up if you time someone elses key that is higher then yours. Not sure if it should be a 1 to 1 or say 50% of the differences or something. Feels bad timing a 24 then seeing you have a 21 in your bags that is basically dead until next week.
Ask a 100 M+ plays how they could make things better and you would likely get a 100 different answers some of them good and these are just my half baked ideas.
I quit keys bc of Aug. Probably not coming back until they figure that out.
Keys should never deplete. We have already wasted and invested our TIME. We don't need depletion and we don't need random dungeons. The objections to this are ridiculous.
* I met friends doing lower keys - that's great, you can still choose to do them
* If I could pick my key/level, I'd just do it constantly until I got it and that's not healthy for me - your lack of self-control over your life shouldn't impact me
* I need to be punished for failing - you are, you've lost time, the only currency you have in life
Tormented was the best seasonal affix and its not close.
Don't @ me
They can even make the powers and bosses mkre themeatic to the season
They should take the Torghast end of Shadowlands selection of Key level - do away with the Key item completely. So when you enter Mythic mode, it will ask you what level of M+ you want to enter with (like Torghast did) and the levels would be unlocked by the completing the level before it, if you 2+ or 3+, same M+ system applies to how many levels are unlocked.
People could then go to any dungeon they wanted to play, form the group, select the difficulty and then enter. The dungeon timer would start as it does now by activating the key pedestal.
If you fail the key, you could have the reward system be the same as it is now (you get an item and a vault slot) but don't unlock the next level. If people want to drop it down a difficult level, they can, if they want to try and time it (if they failed) they can.
If you royaly FU, you can exit and restart the dungeon as much as you like, but ofc not finishing the dungeon you get no rewards, but you get to progress and try again at the tough bit you messed up the first time.
Best of both worlds.
Idk, I like listening to Dorki and Dratnos. First time hearing about Max and he is cool.
Here's my problem with the whole raid and M+ mixed gearing problem: people who want to play M+ don't want to raid, raiders don't want to M+, and neither should be forced to do so. I think the idea of having item levels or some sort of power boost when wearing gear from the content that you're doing is the most sensible and easiest fix to the problem because you're encouraged to do what you want to do. I understand the concern that people feel like that might kill raid, but then the question we should be asking is: why can't raid prop itself up on it's own "fun" without having ridiculous items like Beacon that become required to be able to play at the highest levels of M+? Again, from Max and Dratnos perspective that could very well be the End of WoW, but for the overall health of the game it's definitely time to consider how raid and M+ are structured against each other, maybe even consider having raidungeons that can be completed by 5 or 10 players instead of 20.
That's just not true though, there is an absolutely massive overlap between people who enjoy both raiding and doing m+. There is a subset of m+ players who don't raid and vice versa, but they're really outliers - and by making it harder for people to get gear relevant to raid outside of raid, you're going to kill their gearing process by splitting it in two
@@lieQT You will never know unless they seperate the gearing.
Why ONLY 8 dungeons? We have this immense dungeon pool to choose from and part of why M+ gets old is you're running the same old key all the time. Legion is the standard when it comes to the number of dungeons. Why are there not 12 dungeons? like wtf.
if having a support class, then make M+ 6man?
idk I'm super casual, so my opinion don't matter 1😭
love M+ though
you guys are 🔥🔥🔥 keep up the good work!
i was against increasing the m+ group size at first, but it would potentially solve a lot of issues. better dps to tank/heal/support ratio. gives the healer more to heal without the need for external systems. gives the group a chance at more raid buffs. idk it's growing on me as a solution. blizz needs to make at least two more supports specs asap tho if it's here to stay
I have been posting for a 6 man group since aug came out. They need to make at least 2 more support classes, swap over to 6 man groups at least for a trial patch and see how it goes. Why not?
@@georgeh2299 One more potential dumbass to be boosted and/or screw up a key. There's a reason some people want 10-man raids and/or flexible raid size in Mythic instead of 20. People don't like relying on others for their success, especially if it has to be 30 to 50 minutes of consistent performance.
@Frawt no good way to balance one support class.
With regards to keys, each key should have 3 attempts. Additionally if they added a currency you should get it for completing keys 20+. Then the vendor for that currency gives you 3 options for a key. Turn in a 20+ key with X currency to either push the key level up 1, exchange for a specific dungeon of that same level, or reset attempts on that key.
This could realistically be expanded to all levels with the amount of currency needed growing exponentially with key level, so that running lower level keys would be inefficient for gaining enough currency for the higher level keys.
As a KSM pugging pleb my 2 cents is that keys should have like 5 more min. I.E. bracken hide is 30 min (not real numbers prob), change it to 35. If you do it in 18min its +3. 23min is +2. 30min is +1. 35min is +0. Incomplete or going over the 35min is still -1.
As for currency to buy keys, use the crests that we already are getting anyway, make it a choice to upgrade gear or upgrade/buy a key. Maybe lock it behind KSM or something.
Idk just some thoughts
so as a avet aug defenter i would hate only buffing the dps like thats nut fun as a suport if you only suport the dps
If they are going to let us gear our alts there needs to be a threshold you need to reach before you can send things from your main to your alt, otherwise we have this situation where players who can't play their main sending crests to their alts they won't be able to play either.
I really glad I started learning tank in bfa season4, it feel so rewarding to manage your route and fix the mistake with awakening, even though prot pally was not the best at the time. Then we got prideful in next season which is totally opposite, I think people who like prideful or say it’s a positive affix just simply don’t play tank.