if the triggers annoy u in your drum rack u can group two samplers together inside your drumrack and u will just see them on one pad and they both take the same midi information. i like that
Sick video! Yeah I think this hybrid ring mod sidechain approach is the technical winner. It’s hard to recommend, but it has the best of all worlds. But the real winner is that oscilloscope plugin! Hoo boy; up until now I’ve been recording my kick and sub together over and over in edison, because no oscilloscope would let me zoom in like that. You always manage to find the best visualizers somehow. P.S. nice metal, I didnt know you made that stuff but im not surprised
Yup the RM stuff is quite literally hard to recommend, I wouldn’t know how to explain it clearly just by writing it out. The whole process would be nicer if it was just made into a VST Psyscope definitely saves from a lot of recording, such a handy plugin
Hey, if you don't mind me asking, where did you get the idea of the ringmod ducker? I tried it and I wowed my socks out, it's a real game changer for when you wanna control peaks but not pump it up to the jam. It's amazing.
Hey there. I use your M4L device for this, but, just from a nerdy standpoint of wanting to understand how this works on a technical level, why is the dry chain needed when setting up the ring mod sidchain with the melda plugins? Thanks!
1. Kick gets rectified behind the scenes (output muted). 2. Rectified kick is multiplied with the bass via ring mod. 3. Modulated bass is summed with dry bass (2 and 3 are output in parallel). So, since all of this is set up on the bass track, with the kick going to a sidechain input, 3 is the dry bass and 2 is the production of the fancy process.
Do use the kick you destroyed as a trigger for the side chain or all 3 kicks ? Or the two kicks just to explain and clarify I could not understand ? thaaanx ❤
You mean clipping the drums and everything else together without any sidechaining? Yes it’s different. If you just clipped them e.g at the master with no sidechaining, parts of your drums can get frequency masked, phase canceled, or reinforced to distort against the clipper, which will result in them sounding worse and not as audible. but with rm & normal sidechaining the drums come through unaffected
@@borrasca Nice. It seems to work best when combined with normal sidechaining. Thanks for the explanation. I managed to create a Reaper chain similar to your Ableton one.
@@borrasca I took a bit of a slow dive into this at th-cam.com/video/PeUD20tGxKY/w-d-xo.html trying to understand it more, as well as showing a Reaper and Bitwig setup. Really nice technique I never knew about until now.
with vocals & guitar, sidechaining too much will become audible very quick, imo you could even get away without sidechaining them at all I would sidechain them very fast and maybe not much gain reduction atleast on vocals. Another thing you could do is sidechained dynamic EQing on some mid/low peaks. If you wanted to keep the high frequencies un-sidechained or with much less sidechain, then a 2-band split could be useful. But I don’t think it’s necessary, it’s just preference tho
Hey man. One of the collest video. You really know a lot. I tried it myself and i hear distortion or atrifacts. Kick and bass works wonderful, but bass or kick and snare goes aroun 3db above. When i watched your end part about a complex way it just looked like you just ducked the SC source and the bass, just like in the first part. Is there a way to get rid of the distortion? The information is in higher frequencies, i wouldnt be surprised if you couldnt, and do you get those 3bd+ for snare? Maybe is a problem and its not sample perfect? I used exactly the same settings and plugins. It just changes the sound for me, the kick and snare sound different.
That’s interesting, if you mean the RM sidechain thing with the rack and melda plugins, the sum should not go above 3db, assuming the sidechain source (kick/snare) or target don’t peak over 0db. There’s a new rm sidechain VST that does this all for you: RMSC by justdanpo. Try that and lmk if it worked better
Really interesting SC techinque, the RM SC. imagine using a drumloop with a really nice stereo image... do u think this still works just as well when there is side information?
sidechain ringmodulation is wild. it adds a lot of aliasing. even with nothing clipping 0db you're best off not normalising your music higher than -1db
Your ring mod is in phase meaning the multiplied frequencies are at the top of the wave form. You may need to flip the phase of one of the audio sources so it ring mods at the zero crossing of the combined wave form
With RM sidechaining, the kick pushes the bass out of the way in the exact shape of the kick drum and the there is no attack and release because the attack and release mimmic the movement of the kick frequencies. It's just a different sound. If you prefer the character of a normal compressor a multi-band compressor, use that instead. Normal compressors are going to sound more smooth and vibey whereas the ringmod trick is going to sound more sharp and perfect.
omk guys. i know this is two years old but I'm stucked. I've tried the ring mod technique both doing step by step what happens here with melda, or using KHZ ring mod which is free and should give the same results in one pluging using sidechain. that's now what I'm getting in ableton! i hear the kick distortion through the sidechain and instead of having volume lowering and compression, i just see the distortion of the kick added to the signal of the bass where i'm sidechaining with ring mod. Followed the exact steps on ableton both on melda or on khz ring. wth am i doing wrong???
@@RobertoVoidRizzi Tbh nowadays if you want to rm sidechain I recommend downloading the RMSC vst by justdanpo or my Sidechainer m4l device. Both are free. The melda plugin routing thing is kinda outdated now
I tried many sidechain method but difficult to find what is best sidechain vst. These tools will doing similar thing but what's your best sidechain vst with ring mod or without ring mod?
The best sidechaining vst that I use myself is Kickstart 2. I didn’t include it in this video because it hadn’t been released yet. Rm/audio rate sidechain isn’t essential it’s just a trick you can do.
I dont get the ringmod chain to work correctly. Is it really just clicking on the sidechain button and selecting the rectified kick as sidechain source? In my case the result is a signal with the length of the sub. But as I understand it should rahter be short like the kick to phase cancel it out the bass. Any idea?
@@borrasca Tried anything by now but I cant get MRingModulator to work as expected. It works with kHs Ringmodulator. But there is this clipping issue. Guess I have to search for another ring modulator.
Would you recommend just using kickstart 2 instead of all this? I’m digging the ring mod side chain version. But I currently use kickstart 2. Wondering if it’s worth switching 🤔
@@alastairgames_ Well I use RM sidechaining and kickstart 2 together. But if you’d only use RM it might be beneficial if you want it to sound like there isn’t any sidechaining at all
Have you used REVEAL by FOCUSRITE? its on of the best sidechain plugins i've used. more than volume, it uses multiband, spectral, ducking and/or a combo of all 3
I tried ring mod sidechain. It's too complicated for what it's needed, using midi as trigger in drum machine (I'm using Bitwig but the principle is the same) is more than sufficient, a little bit of mseg tweaks and you have clean, precise and usable sidechain that works everytime and is versatile no matter what genre you're producing in.
@@yajrobot This video describes the ”old” way of RM sidechaining which was indeed complicated, and it was even called that because at the time it needed a ring modulator VST. Today you’d either use the vst called RMSC or my M4L device which make it a lot easier. Bitwig 5 does have the new MSEGs which make native volume ducking a breeze but unfortunately rm sidechaining can’t really be done properly there afaik because it’d need to be done in the Grid and everything in the Grid is oversampled, throwing the phase off. But even then, RMSC is still free so I’d just use that
I can’t think of a situation where I’d use it. Rather sidechain subs, mid basses and hats separately with different lengths and depths, as I briefly touched on in the video Multiband sidechaining on mid basses alone is unnecessary as well because I just don’t think they clash so badly with the drums to warrant longer ducking curves for the low end
@@justtosharefiles678 I don’t even mind the phase shift, that’s not why I don’t MB sidechain I demoed Laser a long time ago but as far as I can remember it detects drum transients and triggers an accurately adjustable envelope sample-accurately, which makes it nicer to use than khs transient shaper, khs gate, duck and chain shaper. It also has nicer lookahead & smoothing handling (just match offset & attack) than duck and chain shaper which come with arbitrary ”smoothing” knobs. It can also be used as a multiband transient shaper I wouldn’t need the multiband option but also don’t mind if the split can’t be turned off. But so many people do like the multiband split that it’s nice that it’s there
Hi ! This ring mod sidechain technique so interesting btw i want to ask something about video. How to setting psyscope volume envelope mode(?) like 7:54 . i really can't know how to do that
psyscope was put on a track that had dc offset going through sidechaining. And from psyscope’s bottom taskbar i took the amplitude down to less than 1.00, chose ”layers” mode, had the length at ”bar”, and then took sidechain input from the kick. That way it displayed both signals overlaid with different colors
ohh thanks ! i didn't notice dc offset doing this volume curve thing, is there any way to download audio file of dc offset? i search for this like white noise or pink noise but can't find it :d
Set up the ring mod side chain, when viewing the kick and sub in the occiloscope the kicks waveform still gets distorted by the sub even though ive followed the rack exactly. Very strange haha 😭😭😂
I understand. I don't stand by any of the methods of this video anymore tbh, because they're a pain to implement. I've made and published my own sidechaining max for live device which does everything I need, so I don't use any of the techniques of this video anymore. For VSTs, i'd just recommend Cableguys Shaperbox 3 and RMSC by justdanpo.
you got some serious info here. really like your video but its hard to follow cause of your lethargic voice. just saying still thanks a lot for the info and have a great one
I agree it’s hard to follow. This one is old, i was reading from a script and english isn’t my first language. So this is pretty much what happens whenever i try and record a video, can’t really help it other than try to edit & cut it as much as possible
I don't know if you're still active at this, but I really hope you are. You've got SOLID knowledge my guy!!
holy shit the whole tut I thought it would be dubstep and then the metal comes on, fuckin floored dude
if the triggers annoy u in your drum rack u can group two samplers together inside your drumrack and u will just see them on one pad and they both take the same midi information. i like that
just found your channel, this is such a treasure trove of information! the ring mod sidechain is genius! thank you for sharing
Sick video! Yeah I think this hybrid ring mod sidechain approach is the technical winner. It’s hard to recommend, but it has the best of all worlds.
But the real winner is that oscilloscope plugin! Hoo boy; up until now I’ve been recording my kick and sub together over and over in edison, because no oscilloscope would let me zoom in like that. You always manage to find the best visualizers somehow.
P.S. nice metal, I didnt know you made that stuff but im not surprised
Yup the RM stuff is quite literally hard to recommend, I wouldn’t know how to explain it clearly just by writing it out. The whole process would be nicer if it was just made into a VST
Psyscope definitely saves from a lot of recording, such a handy plugin
@@borrascai can probably make a puredata/plugdata plugin pretty easily :)
Busta Rhymes would be happy to see you enabling Flip mode.
Hey, if you don't mind me asking, where did you get the idea of the ringmod ducker? I tried it and I wowed my socks out, it's a real game changer for when you wanna control peaks but not pump it up to the jam. It's amazing.
I thought of how RM worked which sparked the idea that, with the right sidechain source it can be used for quick ducking
on god did you get like a music engineering degree this is awesome
Thanks. I wish
well done you just invented a technique - and it seems to blow up now
Great video as always dude! The hybrid sidechain method is a game changer!
why is it that you don't believe in multiband ducking? is it due to phase coherence? would using a linear phase split help?
Hey there. I use your M4L device for this, but, just from a nerdy standpoint of wanting to understand how this works on a technical level, why is the dry chain needed when setting up the ring mod sidchain with the melda plugins? Thanks!
1. Kick gets rectified behind the scenes (output muted). 2. Rectified kick is multiplied with the bass via ring mod. 3. Modulated bass is summed with dry bass (2 and 3 are output in parallel). So, since all of this is set up on the bass track, with the kick going to a sidechain input, 3 is the dry bass and 2 is the production of the fancy process.
Do use the kick you destroyed as a trigger for the side chain or all 3 kicks ? Or the two kicks just to explain and clarify I could not understand ? thaaanx ❤
Just the destroyed kick (which is muted).
@@borrasca Aha, I understand, I use Cubase, and I try to do the same steps as you, but I also face some problems in terms of routed ,, thanxxx bro 🙏🏼
This was extremely helpful! Thanks so much for posting!!
Is using ringmod sidechain any different from just clipping?
You mean clipping the drums and everything else together without any sidechaining?
Yes it’s different. If you just clipped them e.g at the master with no sidechaining, parts of your drums can get frequency masked, phase canceled, or reinforced to distort against the clipper, which will result in them sounding worse and not as audible. but with rm & normal sidechaining the drums come through unaffected
@@borrasca Nice. It seems to work best when combined with normal sidechaining. Thanks for the explanation. I managed to create a Reaper chain similar to your Ableton one.
@@borrasca I took a bit of a slow dive into this at th-cam.com/video/PeUD20tGxKY/w-d-xo.html trying to understand it more, as well as showing a Reaper and Bitwig setup. Really nice technique I never knew about until now.
Multiband sidechaining could be handful in layered vocal/guitar mixing(metal) ..... Could you agree on that?
with vocals & guitar, sidechaining too much will become audible very quick, imo you could even get away without sidechaining them at all
I would sidechain them very fast and maybe not much gain reduction atleast on vocals. Another thing you could do is sidechained dynamic EQing on some mid/low peaks.
If you wanted to keep the high frequencies un-sidechained or with much less sidechain, then a 2-band split could be useful. But I don’t think it’s necessary, it’s just preference tho
Hey man. One of the collest video. You really know a lot. I tried it myself and i hear distortion or atrifacts. Kick and bass works wonderful, but bass or kick and snare goes aroun 3db above. When i watched your end part about a complex way it just looked like you just ducked the SC source and the bass, just like in the first part. Is there a way to get rid of the distortion? The information is in higher frequencies, i wouldnt be surprised if you couldnt, and do you get those 3bd+ for snare? Maybe is a problem and its not sample perfect? I used exactly the same settings and plugins. It just changes the sound for me, the kick and snare sound different.
That’s interesting, if you mean the RM sidechain thing with the rack and melda plugins, the sum should not go above 3db, assuming the sidechain source (kick/snare) or target don’t peak over 0db. There’s a new rm sidechain VST that does this all for you: RMSC by justdanpo. Try that and lmk if it worked better
Really interesting SC techinque, the RM SC. imagine using a drumloop with a really nice stereo image... do u think this still works just as well when there is side information?
That’s actually an interesting question I hadn’t thought of before.. I’ll try out whether the l and r channels are linked or not while rm SCing
I don't really get why but with RM sidechain I'm still getting some intersample peaks over 0dB which is ruining everything, any tips?
Ok I understood that it came from high frequencies which could cause intersample peaks, I think
sidechain ringmodulation is wild. it adds a lot of aliasing. even with nothing clipping 0db you're best off not normalising your music higher than -1db
Your ring mod is in phase meaning the multiplied frequencies are at the top of the wave form. You may need to flip the phase of one of the audio sources so it ring mods at the zero crossing of the combined wave form
I'm gonna go watch peaky blinders, lol. Great video
Great video. What's your reasoning for being so against multiband sidechaining?
With RM sidechaining, the kick pushes the bass out of the way in the exact shape of the kick drum and the there is no attack and release because the attack and release mimmic the movement of the kick frequencies. It's just a different sound. If you prefer the character of a normal compressor a multi-band compressor, use that instead. Normal compressors are going to sound more smooth and vibey whereas the ringmod trick is going to sound more sharp and perfect.
Holy Shit... OK I'm inspired. Amazing upload and work!
omk guys. i know this is two years old but I'm stucked. I've tried the ring mod technique both doing step by step what happens here with melda, or using KHZ ring mod which is free and should give the same results in one pluging using sidechain. that's now what I'm getting in ableton! i hear the kick distortion through the sidechain and instead of having volume lowering and compression, i just see the distortion of the kick added to the signal of the bass where i'm sidechaining with ring mod. Followed the exact steps on ableton both on melda or on khz ring. wth am i doing wrong???
@@RobertoVoidRizzi Tbh nowadays if you want to rm sidechain I recommend downloading the RMSC vst by justdanpo or my Sidechainer m4l device. Both are free. The melda plugin routing thing is kinda outdated now
Dude you are a fcking genius
Thanks for your great explanation
I tried many sidechain method but difficult to find what is best sidechain vst. These tools will doing similar thing but what's your best sidechain vst with ring mod or without ring mod?
The best sidechaining vst that I use myself is Kickstart 2. I didn’t include it in this video because it hadn’t been released yet. Rm/audio rate sidechain isn’t essential it’s just a trick you can do.
Incredible channel. Thank you.
I dont get the ringmod chain to work correctly. Is it really just clicking on the sidechain button and selecting the rectified kick as sidechain source? In my case the result is a signal with the length of the sub. But as I understand it should rahter be short like the kick to phase cancel it out the bass. Any idea?
You should get a short signal out of MRingModulator and layer it with the dry signal so they phase cancel eachother out.
@@borrasca Tried anything by now but I cant get MRingModulator to work as expected. It works with kHs Ringmodulator. But there is this clipping issue. Guess I have to search for another ring modulator.
I found out that the AU version of MRingModulator is the problem. It works perfect with the VST3 version..
Would you recommend just using kickstart 2 instead of all this? I’m digging the ring mod side chain version. But I currently use kickstart 2. Wondering if it’s worth switching 🤔
Yes. Kickstart 2 (and Shaperbox 3) came out right after this video and I just use those two plugins now, along with RM sidechaining.
@@borrasca when would you recommend using rm sidechaining instead?
@@alastairgames_ Well I use RM sidechaining and kickstart 2 together. But if you’d only use RM it might be beneficial if you want it to sound like there isn’t any sidechaining at all
Have you used REVEAL by FOCUSRITE? its on of the best sidechain plugins i've used. more than volume, it uses multiband, spectral, ducking and/or a combo of all 3
I tried ring mod sidechain. It's too complicated for what it's needed, using midi as trigger in drum machine (I'm using Bitwig but the principle is the same) is more than sufficient, a little bit of mseg tweaks and you have clean, precise and usable sidechain that works everytime and is versatile no matter what genre you're producing in.
@@yajrobot This video describes the ”old” way of RM sidechaining which was indeed complicated, and it was even called that because at the time it needed a ring modulator VST.
Today you’d either use the vst called RMSC or my M4L device which make it a lot easier.
Bitwig 5 does have the new MSEGs which make native volume ducking a breeze but unfortunately rm sidechaining can’t really be done properly there afaik because it’d need to be done in the Grid and everything in the Grid is oversampled, throwing the phase off. But even then, RMSC is still free so I’d just use that
@@borrascawhere can I get your M4L?
@@Enument0 borrasca(dot)gumroad(dot)com
useful info as always, thanks a lot!
bro did a sidechain tutorial speedrun
oh im an idiot im on 1.5x lmao
more of these please
What’s wrong with multiband sidechain?
I can’t think of a situation where I’d use it.
Rather sidechain subs, mid basses and hats separately with different lengths and depths, as I briefly touched on in the video
Multiband sidechaining on mid basses alone is unnecessary as well because I just don’t think they clash so badly with the drums to warrant longer ducking curves for the low end
phase issues cause of the filters
@@borrasca true true
So why is Sweetsonics laser good then?
@@justtosharefiles678 I don’t even mind the phase shift, that’s not why I don’t MB sidechain
I demoed Laser a long time ago but as far as I can remember it detects drum transients and triggers an accurately adjustable envelope sample-accurately, which makes it nicer to use than khs transient shaper, khs gate, duck and chain shaper.
It also has nicer lookahead & smoothing handling (just match offset & attack) than duck and chain shaper which come with arbitrary ”smoothing” knobs. It can also be used as a multiband transient shaper
I wouldn’t need the multiband option but also don’t mind if the split can’t be turned off. But so many people do like the multiband split that it’s nice that it’s there
@@borrasca ahhh I see
Thanks!
Hi ! This ring mod sidechain technique so interesting btw i want to ask something about video. How to setting psyscope volume envelope mode(?) like 7:54 . i really can't know how to do that
psyscope was put on a track that had dc offset going through sidechaining.
And from psyscope’s bottom taskbar i took the amplitude down to less than 1.00, chose ”layers” mode, had the length at ”bar”, and then took sidechain input from the kick. That way it displayed both signals overlaid with different colors
ohh thanks ! i didn't notice dc offset doing this volume curve thing, is there any way to download audio file of dc offset? i search for this like white noise or pink noise but can't find it :d
Set up the ring mod side chain, when viewing the kick and sub in the occiloscope the kicks waveform still gets distorted by the sub even though ive followed the rack exactly. Very strange haha 😭😭😂
By distorted you mean the peaks add up to over 0db? Are both your kick and sub (individually) clipped/limited to 0db or less?
I still beleive in multiband sidechaining.
@@bjh3661 I actually came around on it too and my sidechaining device does have a 2 band split now
Nice technique! A bit of a pain in to follow and understand tho.
I understand. I don't stand by any of the methods of this video anymore tbh, because they're a pain to implement. I've made and published my own sidechaining max for live device which does everything I need, so I don't use any of the techniques of this video anymore.
For VSTs, i'd just recommend Cableguys Shaperbox 3 and RMSC by justdanpo.
Very nice
Thank you for the help fren! Also u look like oneyNG lol
I kinda see it, shouldn’t have cut my hair
nice
The king has spoken
You're a god, haha
s/o boog
@@notrandom8 Aw hell nah
@@borrasca that ringmod sidechain is crazycrazy
you got some serious info here. really like your video but its hard to follow cause of your lethargic voice. just saying still thanks a lot for the info and have a great one
I agree it’s hard to follow. This one is old, i was reading from a script and english isn’t my first language. So this is pretty much what happens whenever i try and record a video, can’t really help it other than try to edit & cut it as much as possible
i got u my english would sound horrible i guess xD i just wantet to give u honest feedback. still thanks a lot for the video @@borrasca