This was a good conversation with a lot of good information, but I am not sure how much of a debate it was. It seemed they both basically agreed with secure borders and more immigration as well as the motives for why those things should take place. I especially appreciated Matthew's biblical-theological approach to the topic. I think a significant portion of the conversation was missed when they (especially Darren as a prof. of political science) did not talk about how the church in America has been polarized by its affiliation with particular political parties. With many topics, including immigration, Christians put on their politics glasses before they put on their theological/Christian glasses. Thus, they come to conclusions about what to do regarding immigration from their party platforms rather than the Bible. Would love to have heard why that seems to be the case more lately, or if it is not actually just a modern problem. All that said I love the tone and production of these conversations! Keep up the good work with this series!
Should American Christians urge the government to uphold the immigration laws currently on the books, or continue to disregard them - to the peril of the citizenry - as is the current policy? This is intentionally more specific than the question framed for the "debate".
Glad for this reasoned conversation (and not really a debate). I do wish though, that Darren had stuck to the question at hand, and not gone down a straw-man rabbit trail introducing fears of open borders. Moreover, some of his other offerings were about fears of projected losses by today's citizenry, eg anxieties about losing the status quo. Presumably that's not our minorities fears, it's the fears of majority folks. As Christians, should those sorts of fears be the driving factors for our position re American policy. I agree with Matthew. Let biblical teachings drive our actions, not fears or 'cultural values' (that the Church often disdains).
Matthew 25:35-40 New International Version 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
I am a missionary in Nicaragua. I feel for these people and know many people personally who have gone to the USA illegally. Still, I believe we HAVE to secure our borders. I also believe we need to make it way easier to legally immigrate to the USA. I like Piper's suggestion of making those who came illegally pay a fine.
Just to throw in my 2 cents, I personally am against increased immigration and would even go as far as to say that reduced immigration would greatly benefit the nation. This is not to disregard the theological points here but instead because of 1.) The current geopolitical situation in the US. The USA has so many internal problems that we are simply not in a position to help people, in the same way you would not offer to help your neighbor if you were horribly sick, we should not offer to help others while our nation is fracturing around us. 2.) Ill admit this one is based on antidotal evidence, but coming from California I certainly noticed a trend of non integration from the immigrants in my (then) home state. Not to say that the immigrants are totally devoid of Christian or American values, but simply that a lot of them saw the US as an opportunity for personal gain (often of the monetary variety) and I don't want to throw out wild accusations but it seemed to me that there was no "love for American values and certainly no desire to integrate into the society they land themselves in. This may be unique to CA but the inmigrantes would form their own little sub communities and tended to spend their time there. While avoiding interaction apart from their communities.
Other matters include the diminishing of the skill sets in production as well as other areas. And someone is getting over on this with cheap labor. Then there is the abortion issue. The U.S. is a nation that has eliminated much of its workforce through infanticide. The K-12 system and universities such as these folks most likely attended have introduced a man-centered human autonomy ideological mindset that fails to consider the scope of the whole and is not capable of coming up with a border solution that does not , in one way or another, protect the citizens or even those who enter illegally.
I agree that the YS government needs to make a firm decision to give amnesty to undocumented workers and their families who have been working here for 25-30 years! Is it legal that undocumented are forced to buy into social security ( never to receive what is just-compensation, soc security , good health care as they work in almost every industry in places that white , native born workers want! There are over 100,000,000 refugees right now! Why do immigrants leave drought, violence, poverty like Venezuela!
Is it right to enter a country illegally and then expect to be given citizenship as if you are owed it? Why should anyone receive the benefits of citizenship if they are not one?
If someone is illegally living in the USA and claims to be a Christian should they be rebuked for living in sin since they are disobeying the God ordained Government and the laws they’ve put into place?
This is something I've thought about, having known friends and other people residing in the U.S. illegally a lot of my life. The cases I know best were originally visa overstays that went on to reside illegally and to endeavor to gain legal residency over time while working illegally. Knowing them personally, I don't think they had really legitimate cases for asylum. I think as I have come to think more biblically about the nature of sin, I have come to see ongoing illegal residence as more of a discipleship issue to be addressed than I used to. Lying or exaggerating for asylum, cheating the system, breaking the law, etc., like any sins, are not benign trivialities because: (1) Even if the effect is not the same as something like murder, the real issue is in the heart that justifies sin and that is set against following God in all things. And (2) no sin can be compartmentalized; justifying sin in your heart will harden it against repentance, shape how you think and live in other areas of your life, and ultimately separate you from God. This isn't just theoretical, it's something I think I see. For those reasons, I think now that the church should disciple Christians residing illegally to be truthful and honest in their dealings with the law. If someone no longer has a path to legal residency under the law as it stands, for example a denied asylum claim, then I think the church should disciple them too to return to their country of citizenship and walk in the light. Christians should not have to fear ICE or deportation because as a people we should be following the law out of transformed hearts and doing the right thing long before it ever gets to the point that ICE is involved.
I know of many Christians from my country of origin who have come, overstayed their visa worked illegally and then somehow they became legal. You have to suppress your conscience to do that and it's sinful. I have also had cases especially with Anabaptists of people who have come to their churches and after they have been converted they have volunteered to go back to their home countries because they were here illegally.
Some good points from both sides. It does seem both sides as I have seen from other debates too touches more on the extremes of both sides as their critiques rather than the person's beliefs in front of them.
Countries like those in East Asia for example (Japan, South Korea, Taiwan) have developed economies but more restrictive immigration and naturalization policies than the U.S. It would be good for Christians there to consider how their faith shapes how they think about not just emigration to other countries but immigration to their own countries as well.
The Book of Acts has some insights on borders: 17:24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
"O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness. The Lord of hosts hath sworn by Himself, saying, Surely I will fill thee with men, as with caterpillars; and they shall lift up a shout against thee." Jer. 51:13-14 Or how about? "Thus saith the Lord God; I will therefore spread my net over thee with a company of many people, and they shall bring thee up in my net." Ezekiel 32:3 Many people have forgot nine one one. That was a very few people, that lived with us, went to our schools, heck, we even taught them how to fly those planes. And now we have 960,000 got aways. People that didn't come through the gates cause they have something to hide. Goodness. Lord have mercy on the ones that proclaim His name. God bless the God blessed. The watchman has sounded his trump.......
Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow (Romans 13:1-2, The Living Bible). We need to protect them from hell and deport them for there own souls sake.
There must be pointed out that political individuals are pushing mass immigration to confuse and overload infrastructure (health, food, etc) making it hard to stay organized as we are caretaking to a million new concerns, therefore chaos is created. So I would disagree we need more immigration; we need a recorrection of order within our country, it's culture, it's beliefs, it's political injustice and corruption. We can't expect to solve a million issues but instead focus on a few big issues at a time. Unfortunately neocon / neolib essentially both working towards marxists and spiritually satanic forces to change the dynamic.
Also, the guest on the right doesn't understand that if we stand in sanity, others next to us will adopt sanity. We see that with El Salvador and temporarily with Brazil, we had good strides with other neighboring countries while Trump, Bukele and Bolsanaro were in office but fell apart in america once we stopped being American first. I think the one on the right in the panel is not thinking long term or understanding the lies in the media twisting certain things.
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This was a good conversation with a lot of good information, but I am not sure how much of a debate it was. It seemed they both basically agreed with secure borders and more immigration as well as the motives for why those things should take place. I especially appreciated Matthew's biblical-theological approach to the topic.
I think a significant portion of the conversation was missed when they (especially Darren as a prof. of political science) did not talk about how the church in America has been polarized by its affiliation with particular political parties. With many topics, including immigration, Christians put on their politics glasses before they put on their theological/Christian glasses. Thus, they come to conclusions about what to do regarding immigration from their party platforms rather than the Bible. Would love to have heard why that seems to be the case more lately, or if it is not actually just a modern problem.
All that said I love the tone and production of these conversations! Keep up the good work with this series!
Should American Christians urge the government to uphold the immigration laws currently on the books, or continue to disregard them - to the peril of the citizenry - as is the current policy? This is intentionally more specific than the question framed for the "debate".
Glad for this reasoned conversation (and not really a debate). I do wish though, that Darren had stuck to the question at hand, and not gone down a straw-man rabbit trail introducing fears of open borders. Moreover, some of his other offerings were about fears of projected losses by today's citizenry, eg anxieties about losing the status quo. Presumably that's not our minorities fears, it's the fears of majority folks. As Christians, should those sorts of fears be the driving factors for our position re American policy. I agree with Matthew. Let biblical teachings drive our actions, not fears or 'cultural values' (that the Church often disdains).
Matthew 25:35-40 New International Version
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
I am a missionary in Nicaragua. I feel for these people and know many people personally who have gone to the USA illegally. Still, I believe we HAVE to secure our borders. I also believe we need to make it way easier to legally immigrate to the USA. I like Piper's suggestion of making those who came illegally pay a fine.
make it easier to immigrate while securing the border is a bit like locking the back door but keeping the front door wide open.
Just to throw in my 2 cents, I personally am against increased immigration and would even go as far as to say that reduced immigration would greatly benefit the nation. This is not to disregard the theological points here but instead because of
1.) The current geopolitical situation in the US. The USA has so many internal problems that we are simply not in a position to help people, in the same way you would not offer to help your neighbor if you were horribly sick, we should not offer to help others while our nation is fracturing around us.
2.) Ill admit this one is based on antidotal evidence, but coming from California I certainly noticed a trend of non integration from the immigrants in my (then) home state. Not to say that the immigrants are totally devoid of Christian or American values, but simply that a lot of them saw the US as an opportunity for personal gain (often of the monetary variety) and I don't want to throw out wild accusations but it seemed to me that there was no "love for American values and certainly no desire to integrate into the society they land themselves in.
This may be unique to CA but the inmigrantes would form their own little sub communities and tended to spend their time there. While avoiding interaction apart from their communities.
Other matters include the diminishing of the skill sets in production as well as other areas. And someone is getting over on this with cheap labor. Then there is the abortion issue. The U.S. is a nation that has eliminated much of its workforce through infanticide. The K-12 system and universities such as these folks most likely attended have introduced a man-centered human autonomy ideological mindset that fails to consider the scope of the whole and is not capable of coming up with a border solution that does not , in one way or another, protect the citizens or even those who enter illegally.
Post 911 has changed the rules of engagement concerning who comes in.
I agree that the YS government needs to make a firm decision to give amnesty to undocumented workers and their families who have been working here for 25-30 years! Is it legal that undocumented are forced to buy into social security ( never to receive what is just-compensation, soc security , good health care as they work in almost every industry in places that white , native born workers want! There are over 100,000,000 refugees right now! Why do immigrants leave drought, violence, poverty like Venezuela!
Is it right to enter a country illegally and then expect to be given citizenship as if you are owed it? Why should anyone receive the benefits of citizenship if they are not one?
If someone is illegally living in the USA and claims to be a Christian should they be rebuked for living in sin since they are disobeying the God ordained Government and the laws they’ve put into place?
This is something I've thought about, having known friends and other people residing in the U.S. illegally a lot of my life. The cases I know best were originally visa overstays that went on to reside illegally and to endeavor to gain legal residency over time while working illegally. Knowing them personally, I don't think they had really legitimate cases for asylum. I think as I have come to think more biblically about the nature of sin, I have come to see ongoing illegal residence as more of a discipleship issue to be addressed than I used to. Lying or exaggerating for asylum, cheating the system, breaking the law, etc., like any sins, are not benign trivialities because: (1) Even if the effect is not the same as something like murder, the real issue is in the heart that justifies sin and that is set against following God in all things. And (2) no sin can be compartmentalized; justifying sin in your heart will harden it against repentance, shape how you think and live in other areas of your life, and ultimately separate you from God. This isn't just theoretical, it's something I think I see. For those reasons, I think now that the church should disciple Christians residing illegally to be truthful and honest in their dealings with the law. If someone no longer has a path to legal residency under the law as it stands, for example a denied asylum claim, then I think the church should disciple them too to return to their country of citizenship and walk in the light. Christians should not have to fear ICE or deportation because as a people we should be following the law out of transformed hearts and doing the right thing long before it ever gets to the point that ICE is involved.
I know of many Christians from my country of origin who have come, overstayed their visa worked illegally and then somehow they became legal. You have to suppress your conscience to do that and it's sinful. I have also had cases especially with Anabaptists of people who have come to their churches and after they have been converted they have volunteered to go back to their home countries because they were here illegally.
This was an embarrassing "debate"
If you wanted a real debate TGC, you should bring either Ann Coulter or Michelle Malkin to have this conversation.
Some good points from both sides. It does seem both sides as I have seen from other debates too touches more on the extremes of both sides as their critiques rather than the person's beliefs in front of them.
Correction: "Should American Christians"
Why American?
@@humz403 fine “Western”
@@TianZhaoHeavenlyFortune I would suggest a Christian anywhere can ask and answer this question.
Countries like those in East Asia for example (Japan, South Korea, Taiwan) have developed economies but more restrictive immigration and naturalization policies than the U.S. It would be good for Christians there to consider how their faith shapes how they think about not just emigration to other countries but immigration to their own countries as well.
@@dv9360 then this debate should have Christian reps from those countries instead of this is just being two White American men debating
The Book of Acts has some insights on borders: 17:24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
"O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness. The Lord of hosts hath sworn by Himself, saying, Surely I will fill thee with men, as with caterpillars; and they shall lift up a shout against thee." Jer. 51:13-14 Or how about? "Thus saith the Lord God; I will therefore spread my net over thee with a company of many people, and they shall bring thee up in my net." Ezekiel 32:3 Many people have forgot nine one one. That was a very few people, that lived with us, went to our schools, heck, we even taught them how to fly those planes. And now we have 960,000 got aways. People that didn't come through the gates cause they have something to hide. Goodness. Lord have mercy on the ones that proclaim His name. God bless the God blessed. The watchman has sounded his trump.......
Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow (Romans 13:1-2, The Living Bible).
We need to protect them from hell and deport them for there own souls sake.
These guys will say "they needed a better job and luxury ,give it to them."
You guys need to do the right Christian thing to do and adopt illegal immigrants into your homes..
YOU WOULDN'T!!
Man, Darren straight up looks like Tim Allen…good for him.
There must be pointed out that political individuals are pushing mass immigration to confuse and overload infrastructure (health, food, etc) making it hard to stay organized as we are caretaking to a million new concerns, therefore chaos is created. So I would disagree we need more immigration; we need a recorrection of order within our country, it's culture, it's beliefs, it's political injustice and corruption. We can't expect to solve a million issues but instead focus on a few big issues at a time. Unfortunately neocon / neolib essentially both working towards marxists and spiritually satanic forces to change the dynamic.
Also, the guest on the right doesn't understand that if we stand in sanity, others next to us will adopt sanity. We see that with El Salvador and temporarily with Brazil, we had good strides with other neighboring countries while Trump, Bukele and Bolsanaro were in office but fell apart in america once we stopped being American first. I think the one on the right in the panel is not thinking long term or understanding the lies in the media twisting certain things.