ECU Chip Tune - Ignition Timing - Increase Horsepower
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ย. 2024
- How to increase horsepower through ignition timing. How does ignition timing affect horsepower? Should an engine advance or retard timing to increase horsepower? This video explains the logic behind ignition timing tuning.
NOTE: "Knock occurs when the peak of the combustion process no longer occurs at the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle." ~ Wikipedia. What happens when the timing is too advanced is the maximum pressure occurs before TDC, which pushes down on the piston when it is still coming up. This is what you are attempting to avoid when advancing timing.
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One thing I found out when looking into timing experiments for my Miata, the higher octane gas you're running, the less likely you are to have knock at higher timing degrees. For instance, my little 1.6L engine will knock if it's running on 87 with the timing advanced from 10 to 12 degrees BTDC, but if I run 93 octane, I can advance the timing all the way to 18 degrees before it starts to knock. Just thought I'd add that.
Yes, thanks to one of the fathers of engines, Sir Harry Ricardo.
VoraciousPhantasma that's because octane is the measure of resistance to knock.
if you use higher octane fuels you can run more parameters to generate power before you reach the knock threshold.
thats because the octane of gas is the resistance to knock. e85 has around a 113 octane thats why people can make more power with it
Jared Tate I thought octane was resistance to detonation/pre-detonation, requiring a higher flash point with higher octane ratings thus ensuring that combustion won't happen simply from the pressure and/or heat that occurs from internal combustion (unless it's diesel which runs off compression once started) but from the actual spark plugs, which in turn allows for more aggressive and advanced timing and tuning setups. That allows a bigger safety buffer against knock the higher the octane used because it's rated to not combust earlier than desired. that's what I was taught growing up and why I always run at least 91 just for the added peace of mind and it actually increases gas milage because it burns more efficiently and the ECU (stock or not) picks that up and adjusts the AF ratio accordingly
We refer "knock" to the sound that detonation/pinging does when the engine is running. We're all talking about the same thing here, so you're right.
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to explain these things, which probably take many tries to get it all in one take, and the drawings that you put on the board. I know that this is not a significant financial gain for you, rather a little 'favor' you go through to pass the time. Thank you!
The delay for anti-lag isn't to increase horsepower, it's to increase the amount of exhaust gas temporarily in order to maintain boost, allowing for more pressure in the exhaust manifold rather than in the cylinder.
This video does an excellent job of explaining why computer controlled timing made such a difference in engine performance. I'd also say distributors ignition lets the computer control the timing even more precisely, which I'd imagine is better.
Hi man,
I am writing from Argentina.
I just want to congrat for your so good videos. I am also and engineer and this is the best information I have found up to know to learn about tuning my ECU.
Thanks!
Leonardo (civic SI 2008)
Very welcome, glad you enjoy the videos!
I’ve never seen a better informative explanation about timing than this video. Thank you
I have a brand new Triumph motorcycle that ran great up until the second service now the engine is knocking during warm-up and smooths out, but doesn’t completely go away if you really listen to it.
I’ve been racking my brains trying to figure out if it was the first fill oil and different oil that they use at the service, but I think it comes down to the ECU programming being faulty.
Awesome video !!!
I removed my headgasket to obtain higher compression ratio. Thanks for all the good tips Jason ✌️
It can be as complex as you desire. You could absolutey change the timing characteristics (as well as others) depending on the position of the gas pedal, as well as other factors like RPM, etc. Older cars are a bit more static, but I would imagine hardly any new cars don't have more dynamic programming.
Why do i have jeff cavaliere vibes with this boy great explaination tho💪
Maybe it's because Jeff and Jason speak in a short range of tones? 😅
Lol he was 24
jeff cavaliere of cars
This man is over 45 years old
Because he doesn't copy and knows his Shi4t
I have been studying engines for years and you are right on the money on this video
Oh! I see, so the delay of ignition timing helps the inlet turbocharger intake more air with high pressure and tempt. Thankyou very much!!
I am an international student studying in Virginia Tech for Mechanical engineering this fall, and I love to watch your video with notes taking for each of them. Keep going!! Ｉ appreciate you pretty much!
I learned more about mecanic on your page than the garage I used to work!
thanks a lot!
Shouldn't this guy have a TH-cam award by now? It's been years.
If it's electronically controlled it's not going to change the timing unless something tells it that it needs to. For example, if it knew that the mixture was going to knock, it may alter the timing (or air/fuel) and try to compensate and eliminate the knock. Not sure what to tell you, check for engine codes and see if it spits anything out. Most auto parts stores will read it for free.
I did this (without a dyno) to an VW kombi... just move the distributor and done
Nice video!
Ignition may occur before TDC, but you want the maximum force created (by the expansion of the igniting air/fuel mixture) to occur once the piston is moving down.
To answer your question, yes, you can have gains by adjusting only the timing, while keeping everything else constant.
Awesome, thanks for watching!
I wish your channel had been around when I was 18 I'd have gone to school for engineering not finance lol
But, hey! You survived the finance course. Good one! 😹👍
Yea I love cars but I wish I would have gone into finance as oppose to engineering..
@@automotivetv9861 Why? What makes you say that?
@@AiePro26 i graduated civil engineering 4 years ago and been jobless since
That's not what I was intending to say. What I'm saying is detonation occurs at a time when the maximum pressure will be reached before the piston reach TDC (while it's still moving up). "Knock occurs when the peak of the combustion process no longer occurs at the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle."
I'm not sure what you're asking? Make a 1.6L with as little HP as possible? It would likely be more efficient to make a smaller engine that meets the power you want to make, assuming it's small.
It's because you can increase the boost simply with a tune with most modern turbocharged cars. That means you can easily increase the amount of air supplied to the engine, thus can use more fuel and create more power. With NA cars you can't really alter the amount of air that comes in, just the amount of fuel, without actually swapping components.
Started with a marker and white board. Last week he drove a McLaren 720S. I love you brother ❤️
Mmmkay. You may wish to check a source or two, and report on what you find. "Igniting the mixture before the piston reaches TDC will allow the mixture to fully burn soon after the piston reaches TDC."
Can't believe I've been watching this channel for years now, and in this old video I realized I was not subscribed. Have another sub young Jason, imagine I've been always here... bc I have.
This is the best explanation of TDC in the world.
We watched your video today with the entire crew and we think that you will get there in the end! you are on the right track!
Some of the best content for car guys on youtube.
As usual, you've made another great video! I was considering getting an ECU chip tune, but didn't realize how this could affect the engine in the long term. I want horsepower, but I also want my car to last for years and years, decades and decades. Thank you.
if your going to do an ecu turning, you should replace stronger internal parts first like pistons, cams, rods, valves etc bc your making the engine work harder causing premature engine wear out. this y racing engine are designed differently from standard factory engine.
where is the link for ignition timing that you talked about in this video ?
I have the same question
i cant stop watching your vids... so addicting! do you ever go under the hood or do you only deal with the concepts?
Yes that makes sense, I didn't think that the two sparks actually may be delayed to better optimize the combustion. Thanks for your comment man!
Just before, actually. Because it won't instantly get to high pressures, it requires a little time to spread the flame.
In regards to the setting the timing back short of maximum HP/TQ to prevent knock, in most cases there are two ways to deal with it though one is more preferential IMO... Enrich the mixture to slow the burn of the flame front... or the better option of raise the octane rating of the fuel. To make maximum power in an engine you tune the ignition advance curve for HP/TQ then tune for fuel to allow that timing curve. Great video BTW!
That was excellent. Now I have an understanding of how timing affects HP.
Mate, your videos are just brilliant. Just wanted to let you know....keep up the awesome videos! I'm a 3rd year aerospace engineering student and i watch your videos quite a lot.
Great video - I'm about to upgrade my motorbike igniton advancer to a +4 . I know it improves things and now I understand a bit more about how the bike works - I'm normally a 'hop on and ride ' type of guy but am trying to improve my theoretical mechanical knoweldge with some success. Thanks.
Not too often but that will likely change. Just a couple videos now - replacing the distributor, replacing the thermostat, and strut bars installed.
Dude your videos are awsome, but im a.. well just say im a engine noob. Im trying to learn, but your throwing sooo much information at me that i can barley understand everything, but GOOD information. Keep it up.
Now it's done without distributors, each spark plug has it's own coiled an they can be controlled completely electronically.
Great videos!
I would suggest you putting something into the room that will attenuate the reverberation.
i watch your video 2 years ago but didnt have a clue what you meant , after i had a mapping course and mapping my own cars , i now understand what you mean , it does depend on fuel you use at the time , air temp , move the timing till it starts to loss hp then back it off one hp , but you have to watch for knock limited engine as they may knock before max hp ,
I love your stuff! Combined with the repair guys (Eric, Brian, Chris, Humble, Scotty) it's the perfect marriage of my science geek(former Physics major) and my gearhead!
It can be variable, especially when you have distributorless engines with individual coils for each plug.
This could have a great title: How to know if your engine is retarded :D
Usually it's when your engine votes Democrat.
Hello 2013 Jason! Videos good even back then
Unlikely, but shoot for 45 degrees (assumes you're a certain height when you jump, forget what) to maximize probability of making a basket!
I agree with you, but the part that is interesting is the actual increase in performance rather than the fail-safe side of the ignition system. Double spark (in a different point of the combustion chamber) helps to ignite the fuel with major efficiency while the flame propagates better. Not a kind of thing you want on your standard fuel-eco Toyota, but what about high performance engines? Alfa Romeo used to fit twin-spark ignition on most of their engines with great results!
Not a bad video. There are some points you may want to add next time. Such at mbt, not all cars are knock limited and adding to much timing can actually cause a loss of power. And another good point would be to elaborate on how volumetric efficiency can effect timing and the knock threshold of the engine. Props on the vid you seem to have a rather well understanding of basic ignition tuning.
Yeah, it's on the to-do list. With exhaust systems, and hybrids. And a bunch of other stuff haha. I'll get there!
This guy is a genius it's ridiculous he's so good at math
I don’t usually comment on videos but this video is so good I had too. Cheers for helping me understand pal
Perhaps, based on my chart, though mine is certainly not representative of all engines. If knock is fairly easy with a certain design, they will likely choose to be overly cautious with the timing.
Thanks. This explains simply why RPM doesn't affect timing.
Mate, first of all, I'd like to thank you for your videos. I'm starting MEng Mech Engineering this fall and I would love to do an MSc Automotive Eng. course afterwards. I somewhat know the very basics of car mechanics but your videos cleared out a gray areas and taught me new things.
Can you achieve power gains by ONLY adjusting the timing of an engine, while other ECU-controlled variables (eg A/F ratio) are kept the same? This would also translate into increased efficiency as well, right?
I see one thing which has been overlooked, and which is a serious problem with the air cooled Honda GROM is the relation between ignition advance and the heat it will generate. We see people running on that motorcycle 30° to 32° advance at 9,500RPM which lift the engine temperature to 135 degrees Celcius where the moment has been reached that it's no longer possible to get your air fuel ratio under control anymore. We see 25° advance as perfect, but then the engine doesn't make any power anymore. We also see that for each rise in engine temperature we need to have another fuel map basically, so the advance and the heat it generate seems to be a huge player and not easy to get it right..
*Idea for a video*
N/A vs Forced induction ignition timing.
Thank you :)
I guess the consequences don't outweigh the costs. A failed spark plug means an engine in limp mode, or at worst, dead. But a car isn't going to come crashing down to earth. As far as the higher altitudes that's really not something most cars have to deal with.
Tell me how to improve mpg on my 2012 6.0 and You will be my hero! Nobody seems to know anything!
Can you do a video where you explain different kinds of software tuning? Dyno, ecu flash, remap etc with pros and cons and various scenarious like daily drive, occasional drag and track day
I'm not to sure. I know this has been done in HEMI engines by Chrysler, but I believe it was done simply because they couldn't meet emissions without it.
Coming back to the discussion below about prevention of knocking by retarding the ignition timing: For one, Wikipedia says that "Knock occurs when the peak of the combustion process no longer occurs at the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle", and further, that "one or more pockets of air/fuel mixture explode outside the envelope of the normal combustion front" and that this happens after the spark plug fires (which distinguishes knocking from pre-ignition). It is a mystery to me how retardation of ignition timing would prevent that since said "pockets of air/fuel mixture" would experience higher pressure and heat by compression before the "normal combustion front" can reach it and, hence, INCREASE the occurrence of irregular combustion. I do believe that it works, of course, but I have yet to see a logical explanation for it.
Note that knocking is not a regular combustion that produces peak pressure before the TDC (otherwise I would easily understand that retardation of ignition timing is the cure), it DOES always involve irregular combustion outside the normal combustion front.
Any thoughts?
Oh I didn't know that!!! Definitely gonna check it out... Thanks for your time here man... Respect!
Holy sh*t.
This kid’s salt n peppered now. Oh how 9 years can change things
thanks for making this so understandable. I'm quite interested about homemade engines. At my beginning i tried making Stirling engine and i succeed only after few weeks or may it took month because of lack of parts so i had to make them on my own. Now i m trying to make i c engine but unfortunately again suffering from lack of parts which here is not avilable in my country so i cant buy it. I dont have lathe too. before watching this i was like let it be, i cant but your presentation gave me hope for expect more. thanks again.
Engineering Explained I love watching these videos! Could you please do an explanation on twin spark systems like what is found on some 2.3l Rangers, Newer Hemi engines, and dodge 4.7l? I'm sure other companies use it as well.
Twin spark systems are commonly just used on poorly designed (slow burning) combustion chambers.
However it can be used to lower time to establish a sizable flame kernel more quickly, meaning less degrees of burning "B"efore TDC & more AF mix for burning "A"fter TDC, AKA, more fuel being used for power.
I agree with most of video but Knock isnt just the result of detination. Knock is derived from the knock sensor which is just a big microphone attached to the engine block. Sometimes knock can be from various engine components like heat shields being loose and making noise. The ecu just gets feedback from the noise and adjusts the timing usually retarding.
But yes, ignition advance will create more TQ which is what tuners look at, not neccesarily HP because HP is the result of TQ over time.
As an engine builds TQ up to its maximum RPM the ignition should be advanced as much as possible depending on fuel octane,engine temp,IAT,ambient temp,boost, spark efficency,fuel pressure, fuel temp etc....
And as boost increases as also does RPM's usually its better to start pulling timing. The amount is based on how aggressive you want the tune. Its really complicated and aweome at the same time.
I guess it depends on what your definition of "beat" is. If it's just a drag race (and has 4wd), then yeah, more horsepower will prevail. If it's a track, driving a truck would be pointless (except for fun, I suppose).
I just opened the accelerator and listened to the engine rpms go up to the max before the engine started to sound not right like knocking or jerking or pinging and then broght it back some on the distributor and increased the range of the accelerator again and again turned the distributor to see if it smoothed out with the highest rpms. Once i did that i let off the accelerator and listened to the engine sound again to see how it was running after setting the highest rpm and if it started to act funny like hard to turn over trying to start i would gradually bring it back some to get that level right. Once it started without any back pressure i then went again and did some more advancement until i got the perfect balance both ways. Once i did that i used my timing light and it showed off on the 10 degree mark but ran perfect. If i set it to the 10 degree mark on the balancer then the engine would run like crap. So, my take is to do it the old "sounding way" and set the balance by ear and feel. The balancer was new so i feel that the computer was not relaying the right information from the distributor to set the timing OEM.
Could you do a live tuning video to see how to read the numbers?
Hi Jason, I have a challenge for you.
Dive deeper into ignition timing vs CR vs high head temps (carburettor engine)
I've bumped up my 1300TP Beetle to 10.13:1 CR (wide quench area) and would like to tune it myself. I believe my carb is set up well, but might re-jet
This kid is very good at explaining....when all is jumbled up.
Did you mention that engines auto advance the timing as rpm increases? Motorcycles had a manual adv/ret lever, then flyweight & springs mechanical adjuster & now electronic.
So for a higher mileage engine (200k km or 125k miles) is there an inherent risk with advancing the ignition timing/ECU mapping? I imagine in a NA engine the safety factor engineered into the engine is greater than any potential power gains from ignition timing?
Good videos by the way mate.
Very good, but you forgot to mention load. That's a huge variable for ignition timing.
who found this video in 2019.. This guy is awesome..
Could you explain electronics of car, like main fuse, ECU, ignition and how battery is connected to them
You're welcome, thanks for watching!
Most of the time the spark will fire just before the power stroke (or the piston begins to move down).
Problem: Engine knock
Solution: Change to a higher octane gasoline
Reason: Higher octane can take more compression before detonation also, it makes the engine run cooler which means even less knocking.
yes to the first 2, however only reason it makes it run cooler is because it can make more usable power, since the explosions are actually pushing the rod down instead of slamming into the piston on it's way up and wasting power. Since it's wasting power, the engine has to dump even more fuel and air into the chamber in order to compensate. but ya I know lots of people who do have knock in their car because they run 87 in a 11:1 or something lol It pains me to see.
It is used in automotive. Alfa Romeo engines use it in their Twin-Spark engines. Back in the 8V days it made a difference as the 2nd spark would actually fire under different timing and igniting any remaining A/F mixture. Nowadays with 16V systems it's a bit of a gimmick and offers no real power gains.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
This is called MBT timing (Minimal for Best Torque). If you are tuning an engine, and you find that if you get more power by retarding the ignition timing this means you are doing something right. If you get more power by having to advance ignition timing, then that means you have a poorly designed engine (case of bad geometry). The goal is to get a greater peak pressure by 15degrees ATDC, and you do that by getting as much fuel as possible burned by that time.
Did you watch the video? The ignition of the fuel / air mixture isn't instant. This is why you need to factor in all the things he talks about in the video. It's always a compromise, this is not the ideal situation that you see in your physics text-books.
I tuned the timming on my car, first time tuning! Thanks god and the knock sensor I didn't messed the engine.
Probably, but it'd likely need to be worked a bit to handle higher RPM.
A slight error there: too much advance can place max presssure AT tdc forcing the engine apart. (that is one problem) Auto ignition is another issue where a hot spot ignite the mixture when you don't want creating knock : this phenomenon can occur before or after spark. All of the above is bad of course, but there is no direct relationship between bad ignition timing and knock, insteat those are situation you put the engine into that lead to knock, or lesser quality fuel, or too hot spark plug choice, or piston shape or or or ...
Could you PM a link? I'm curious, thanks.
can u please upload a tutorial video lecture on high pressure fuel pump for diesel engines..... i want to know the working principle and how to tune the F.I.P timing along with Engine Timing
Depends on the size of engine and how much horsepower it puts out already, how aggressive you get with the timing, fuel type and a lot of other factors. It could be just a few HP or a lot more.
Great video !!! Can you make some explaining the heel and toe technique?
Greetings from Mexico !!
My prototype reduces knock so much, it's like having very high octane fuel.
I run the maximum ignition advance setting in my video.
But shouldn't max timing be at tdc 0degrees and to stop knock shouldn't that be aftdc ?
@@knightrider1545 There are labels under most hoods that tell you what your ignition timing should be set at. Types of fuel, compression ratios, engine design and boost pressure all factor into this number. For an example one of my vehicles says 8 degrees BTDC and another says 11 degrees.
With the use of my prototype I can drive around all day at 38 degrees BTDC.
As for setting your timing at 0 degrees... most vehicles do not do this as fuel takes time to burn and the engine is already rotating. This setting would be too late for most engines to run efficiently.
G-R-E-A-T topic and explanation! I have a question: in aeronautical engineering it's common practice to have a twin-spark ignition system for each cylinder. A very good thing if you think about safety in flight: if one ignition system fails, the other one will still be operational hence avoiding the engine to die. But the very same design is also useful to increase power and also a must-have when you fly at higher altitudes where the air is thinner. Why isn't the same thing used in automotive?
Hi! I have been watching your videos so I first of all I wanted to congratulate you!
I wanted to ask you if you do know something about Hidrogen generation with cells, and up to which point is it a reliable way of generating extra power. I mean, would not it change the combustion temperature? Does it generate more power that the consumed?
Thank you!
Can you make a video of some type of ignition timer distributors which can be adjusted... im a fan of your video here..
I will have a video on cams, yep!
I have done this to a few cars, as well as motorcycles. It is not that hard to do. You are looking at series Dyno time though!! If you dont have a shop or a dyno system ( who really does) this fine tuning can get expensive ..
Would you say that the safety factor that manufacturers typically use is too conservative and that you can safely extract a modest increase by tuning your car? For example changing the fuel to air ratio or increasing boost pressure (in a non naturally aspirated application).
Hi! It's nice to watch your video! I got a question, could you please help me?
The video mentioned that Ignition timing, advance, may increase horsepower, however, another video which discusses the anti-lag turbocharger system with "Inlet" method mentioned that we need to delay the ignition timing to increase horse power. They are inconsistent.