I just installed a 4BTV this year. 4 foot aluminum fence post 3 1/2 feet into the ground. Used a 50 pound bag of concrete at the bottom of the post. Back filled the rest of the hole with the dirt I dug up. Installed the antenna on the 1/2 foot that was above ground. Then drove an 8 foot copper ground rod 7 3/4 feet into the ground within one foot of the mount. Ran number 6 sold copper from the antenna to the ground rod. Feed the antenna with 100 foot of Cable Experts 1318. I needed all but 1 1/2 foot so was lucky there. My performance so far without any radials has been great for me. Id say honestly that 80 percent of my attempts are answered with ease without radials. I will probably add some radials soon. My SWR on each of the bands, 40, 20, 15, 10 are all less than 1.9:1 Cant beat that.
If it is stupid, but it works, it's all good. His wire to the ground rod is probably close to 30ft, so yes, he has a radial, not a good radial system, if he makes contacts and Glen is happy with the set up, you experts can go pound salt. Glen, you keep it up, experiment away OM.
My Hustler never came to life until i put radials under it. Put out many short radials and you will certainly be surprised. I am going for 128 ground radials. Helps lower tx radiation angle and also greatly improves RX DX signals. If you can, ground mount the antenna, and layout 128 short radials. Then have someone with an antenna analyzer sweep the antenna and tune it for lowest swr. It will set the vertical ablaze! DX even when propagation is in the loo.
Strongly agree. I have equipment that can measure radial currents. Its almost like each radial adds to the image return current. Critical in lowering ground losses. I got to 25 radials and that was a huge improvement. Each radial beyond that has a smaller and smaller improvement. However!!!!! What is forgotten is that the lobes lay down over each radial. They favor the direction of the radial. Also , put in a wideband balun to help remove current returning on the shield. No radials works. But when you find yourself calling a station over and over or find contesting hard to do. Try radials !! The most you can ! You will tell the difference easily
OM, there are just TWO methods to install this type antenna: Ground mount (close to the ground) with untuned or tuned radials and/or a ground rod in good soil, OR elevated up above 20' or so with tuned radials (min 1/band) in ground plane configuration. I have had good luck w/o any radials when I used a good long (8-10') ground rod or copper pipe/tube or two within a foot or so of the base of the antenna. It's very important all your connections are clean and tight and maybe sealed against WX. I have mine on a chain-link fence and I bonded all the fence components where possible. 73
proof that it works... actually some people Ive worked have NO radials on this vertical.. I do own the 4BTV and its well made and an excellent vertical .. I did run it for a month or so with 1 radial and it was Fair at best... then I bit the bullet and put in the radial plate and 24 radials ( 25 ft each ) and used ground staples... to say there was a difference is an understatement.. I noticed it right away... warning though the SWR got worse ( not bad ..did some tuning of the elements and now is super ) what you WILL feel is stations are much stronger and DX improves in fact it challenges my 1/2 dipole at 30 ft ... DX stations hear my 4BTV but not always my dipole... Dean K4DSB PS.... I do get comments all the time from the purists ..go much higher in the radials for even better performance they say... by the sound of their signals hard to disagree but wire is getting really high and 24 radials make it perform very well
Hi Glen, a raised quarter wave like this should be used with a set of tuned radials. Unfortunately the earth wire is probably doing little more than providing a lightning conduction path, although, on some bands it may act as the missing half of the antenna, oddly by providing a high impedance to earth! The tuner is most likely using the coax as part of the antenna and in days gone by would have caused TVI. using the fact that the SWR is low does not prove that the antenna is radiating, a 50 ohm resistor presents a perfect SWR but does not radiate. The fact that you can contact other stations is also not a great test as QRP guys make contacts with under 5W when the bands are good and so even if the antenna is loosing 95% of the power you will still make contacts (but it will be better if you have tuned radials). Bringing the antenna down to ground level will mean that you do not need tuned radials but, ideally, you do need some radials to provide a capacitive connection to the surrounding earth to ensure that the antenna is operating correctly. One thing to be careful about is to make sure your earth wire is cross bonded to your house earth, If you disconnect the antenna from the radio it is possible for the house and "garden" earths to be at different potentials, this can hurt and, in rare cases, kill if you happen to become connected above them. Enjoy your journey into ham radio and if you are interested in antennas then take a look at how the voltages and currents behave on resonant antennas - its not difficult when you understand that every quarter wave the current is high and the voltage is low (and vice versa) and you will then see why tuned radials are required on a raised antenna and why a single earthing point has no effect on RF but works well for DC. You will probably get the antenna working better mounted directly on the ground with a bunch of random length radials laid out just under your garden. 73
never was lucky enough to have room for radials in the ground. and have 100s of contacts with it. I ran it in 9k2 on a 13 story building and YI9 land on a 10' pole ...and my house here in the states. one day I wish I could have the radials in the ground.
I have been thinking of the 4BTV or 5BTV but it would be mounted on a 15 foot mass and only grounded with a 4 foot grounding rod. How do you think it will work?
any mast over 4ft then the antenna becomes confused thinking it's a dipole. Unless your going to isolate the the antenna from the mast and use tuned radials. Best to group mount with and earth rod and radials. I'd recommend the 5 band 73tu
+David R Thanks Dave, I have the antenna and assembling now. It will be on a 3 ft tripod with a 4 foot pipe, I also drove in 16, 6 foot grounding rods around the shop and have 1000feet of #10 solid wire that I will be running for ground side of antenna to the 16 grounding rods and another 16 ground radials spidering out over the roof. Any thoughts?
There are only two types of antennas, those that work and those that don't. If it works, all the old farts complaining about what you did is meaningless. As my old man told me for years, I didn't heed that advice until I hit about 28 years old, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Glen to noise floor on that is awful ....i couldn't live with it.Have you thought about a Cobwebb ? Would sit there perfectly,much quiter and would work really well.
How will you ever hear any one? Look at that noise? 40 and 20 mtrs useless, unless your mate lives down the road and he 20db/s9. Mate read the manual, gets some radials on the thing, make a decent choke on a ft240-31, get it up at the feed point. Then find out what it is you have making all that noise.
Your a typical old uk G3 comments like that is why this hobby is in decline your only jealous cos my radio collection is worth more than your house lol ...G
Hello Glen, thanks for the video. So after a year what is your opinion of the antenna? I just put up a "used" ground mounted 5BTV vertical and will also use a balun at the base. Greetings from Arizona.
I just installed a 4BTV this year. 4 foot aluminum fence post 3 1/2 feet into the ground. Used a 50 pound bag of concrete at the bottom of the post. Back filled the rest of the hole with the dirt I dug up. Installed the antenna on the 1/2 foot that was above ground. Then drove an 8 foot copper ground rod 7 3/4 feet into the ground within one foot of the mount. Ran number 6 sold copper from the antenna to the ground rod. Feed the antenna with 100 foot of Cable Experts 1318. I needed all but 1 1/2 foot so was lucky there.
My performance so far without any radials has been great for me. Id say honestly that 80 percent of my attempts are answered with ease without radials. I will probably add some radials soon. My SWR on each of the bands, 40, 20, 15, 10 are all less than 1.9:1
Cant beat that.
If it is stupid, but it works, it's all good. His wire to the ground rod is probably close to 30ft, so yes, he has a radial, not a good radial system, if he makes contacts and Glen is happy with the set up, you experts can go pound salt.
Glen, you keep it up, experiment away OM.
Thanks for posting........I'm about to move to a property with a smaller garden and this has provided me with a potential solution.
My Hustler never came to life until i put radials under it. Put out many short radials and you will certainly be surprised. I am going for 128 ground radials. Helps lower tx radiation angle and also greatly improves RX DX signals. If you can, ground mount the antenna, and layout 128 short radials. Then have someone with an antenna analyzer sweep the antenna and tune it for lowest swr. It will set the vertical ablaze! DX even when propagation is in the loo.
Anything over 16 radials you are going to start getting diminishing returns and almost no improvement over 32.
Strongly agree. I have equipment that can measure radial currents. Its almost like each radial adds to the image return current. Critical in lowering ground losses. I got to 25 radials and that was a huge improvement. Each radial beyond that has a smaller and smaller improvement. However!!!!! What is forgotten is that the lobes lay down over each radial. They favor the direction of the radial. Also , put in a wideband balun to help remove current returning on the shield. No radials works. But when you find yourself calling a station over and over or find contesting hard to do. Try radials !! The most you can ! You will tell the difference easily
OM, there are just TWO methods to install this type antenna: Ground mount (close to the ground) with untuned or tuned radials and/or a ground rod in good soil, OR elevated up above 20' or so with tuned radials (min 1/band) in ground plane configuration. I have had good luck w/o any radials when I used a good long (8-10') ground rod or copper pipe/tube or two within a foot or so of the base of the antenna. It's very important all your connections are clean and tight and maybe sealed against WX. I have mine on a chain-link fence and I bonded all the fence components where possible. 73
proof that it works... actually some people Ive worked have NO radials on this vertical.. I do own the 4BTV and its well made and an excellent vertical .. I did run it for a month or so with 1 radial and it was Fair at best... then I bit the bullet and put in the radial plate and 24 radials ( 25 ft each ) and used ground staples... to say there was a difference is an understatement.. I noticed it right away... warning though the SWR got worse ( not bad ..did some tuning of the elements and now is super ) what you WILL feel is stations are much stronger and DX improves in fact it challenges my 1/2 dipole at 30 ft ... DX stations hear my 4BTV but not always my dipole... Dean K4DSB PS.... I do get comments all the time from the purists ..go much higher in the radials for even better performance they say... by the sound of their signals hard to disagree but wire is getting really high and 24 radials make it perform very well
Hi Glen, a raised quarter wave like this should be used with a set of tuned radials. Unfortunately the earth wire is probably doing little more than providing a lightning conduction path, although, on some bands it may act as the missing half of the antenna, oddly by providing a high impedance to earth! The tuner is most likely using the coax as part of the antenna and in days gone by would have caused TVI. using the fact that the SWR is low does not prove that the antenna is radiating, a 50 ohm resistor presents a perfect SWR but does not radiate. The fact that you can contact other stations is also not a great test as QRP guys make contacts with under 5W when the bands are good and so even if the antenna is loosing 95% of the power you will still make contacts (but it will be better if you have tuned radials). Bringing the antenna down to ground level will mean that you do not need tuned radials but, ideally, you do need some radials to provide a capacitive connection to the surrounding earth to ensure that the antenna is operating correctly.
One thing to be careful about is to make sure your earth wire is cross bonded to your house earth, If you disconnect the antenna from the radio it is possible for the house and "garden" earths to be at different potentials, this can hurt and, in rare cases, kill if you happen to become connected above them. Enjoy your journey into ham radio and if you are interested in antennas then take a look at how the voltages and currents behave on resonant antennas - its not difficult when you understand that every quarter wave the current is high and the voltage is low (and vice versa) and you will then see why tuned radials are required on a raised antenna and why a single earthing point has no effect on RF but works well for DC.
You will probably get the antenna working better mounted directly on the ground with a bunch of random length radials laid out just under your garden.
73
Did you hear his explanation?
Where did you connect the ground wire on the antenna side of things.
Seems high qrm level no?
Great Vid Glen, thanks for sharing. How's it doing a year later? de M0KTY
Hy-Gain has a similar antenna that's about the same price. Not sure which one I will get. Also have Kenwood TS-850s, will be listening. 73's N3LHQ
What are your measurements for A,B C and D? Thanks, WZ8E
never was lucky enough to have room for radials in the ground. and have 100s of contacts with it. I ran it in 9k2 on a 13 story building and YI9 land on a 10' pole ...and my house here in the states. one day I wish I could have the radials in the ground.
Hi..................... Why don't you try a EFHW............best 73s
I have been thinking of the 4BTV or 5BTV but it would be mounted on a 15 foot mass and only grounded with a 4 foot grounding rod. How do you think it will work?
any mast over 4ft then the antenna becomes confused thinking it's a dipole. Unless your going to isolate the the antenna from the mast and use tuned radials. Best to group mount with and earth rod and radials. I'd recommend the 5 band
73tu
+David R Thanks Dave, I have the antenna and assembling now. It will be on a 3 ft tripod with a 4 foot pipe, I also drove in 16, 6 foot grounding rods around the shop and have 1000feet of #10 solid wire that I will be running for ground side of antenna to the 16 grounding rods and another 16 ground radials spidering out over the roof. Any thoughts?
+AllAmericanFamilyUS1 Hi that's great. have a look at my qrz.com page, m3mqr and see what I did re earthing ect to my Hustler 6BTV verticle.
a 4 BTV with out radials is half of a antenna
half is more than zero
There are only two types of antennas, those that work and those that don't. If it works, all the old farts complaining about what you did is meaningless. As my old man told me for years, I didn't heed that advice until I hit about 28 years old, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Glen to noise floor on that is awful ....i couldn't live with it.Have you thought about a Cobwebb ? Would sit there perfectly,much quiter and would work really well.
Noisy vertical. Needs ground radials for sure.
ground mount will give you nvis above with raidals will give u morre dx
How will you ever hear any one? Look at that noise? 40 and 20 mtrs useless, unless your mate lives down the road and he 20db/s9.
Mate read the manual, gets some radials on the thing, make a decent choke on a ft240-31, get it up at the feed point.
Then find out what it is you have making all that noise.
I hope you don’t always have that noise level. That’s awful.
Run them out under the road and neighbors yards at night.
+20 of noise......GROUND THE ANTENNA PROPERLY....RADIALS!!!!!
Noise
lol @ "swar" typical cb'r
Dirty bloody cats.
Your a typical old uk G3 comments like that is why this hobby is in decline your only jealous cos my radio collection is worth more than your house lol ...G
Hello Glen, thanks for the video. So after a year what is your opinion of the antenna? I just put up a "used" ground mounted 5BTV vertical and will also use a balun at the base. Greetings from Arizona.
High mumblage factor. Every shot out of focus. Whistling bad practice.