I recently treated a new, small home studio (12x12) with homemade 2" x 72" x 24" foam panels made with cushion foam over 1/4" OSB. I did not add any bass traps, but the panels butt the corners and pretty much cover the length of the walls. One afternoon I just "happened" walk to the back of the room and into one of the corners and I literally hear and feel the concentration of bass in that corner alone, like stepping into a bass cabinet, WOW!-and it was not reflected back into the room or the console/monitor station to a noticeable degree. Never knew bass could collect in one place so much.
Lower frequency pressure oscillates throughout your room dimensions. If the dimensions are not compatable with the frequency wavelength, distortion occurs. You have cited one example of this distortion.
And because of the concentration of bass in corners is why bass traps in corners are quite effective and inexpensive. This has been measured to be true (including by myself).
You are Correct!! When I built a room for recording Drums, I just treated the Four Walls and Few Panels on the ceiling! The Recording, The Jamming session and Movie Viewing improved a Lot.!! But, some of the Clients don't want to record in my room saying there is No Corner Trap and Say it will create issue during Processing without even trying it out.! The educational thing that You are talking about in this video is 100% true..
Just play them your demos. Either they are good or they're are not. Rooms matter only so much. Look at all the variations that have good results, regardless of clowns like this video person.
Your explanation is excellent. When I started adding sound treatment, I went for the corner treatment first which did provide some improvement. The slight improvement helped me ask more questions, better questions to get better results.
This industry is full of half truths, exaggeration, and outright lies. We guarantee our product's performances and you can see some of our projects at this link. www.acousticfields.com/projects/. If you have a room you wish treated, fill out the information in this link and schedule a call. This is a free service. www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
About 5 years ago, I cut rockwool into large triangles, and stacked them on a frame in the upper corner of the front wall. The whole stack is about 15" thick. It reduced a bit of the resonance at low frequencies that screamed out for attention with some music (piano in particular). Didn't fix the room by any means, but was a cheap, quick and made things more tolerable until I could get around to doing something more affective.
Thank you for sharing your experience. The problem with the acoustic belief systems today is that technologies are viewed as absolutes. If it is a sound absorption product, it absorbs everything. All is well no more needs to be done. Using tactics, that do not have the proper rates and levels of absorption to treat the appropriate frequency and amplitude of the issues, will never work. People need to realize those limitations. When realized as in your situation, most will seek higherr resolution. Our thinking is to achieve the highest resolution you can with using the fewest tactics. 100 % fixed, 100% right.
@@AcousticFields try with a room calculator a gap between foam and wall give better low bass damping .when you put a plate in the corner there happen a distance gap to the wall in the middle. this distance to foam damp low bass more but is less effective at mid frequency. also keep in mind when a reflection hit the basstrap in corner it can be reflectet and hit the other side of the basstrap and is damped twice. overall i think damping in corners give not more as 15% more as on normal wall but it is more damp for the money. best is also on floar when a plate is on floor or roof and both sidewalls. only when need more damping then do lonely walls and loose a little effective to money and more noticable room size because of the gap from foam to wall
@@user-lw9py Our experience with lower frequency absorption technologies does not support your conclusions. Using a subjective term such as "better" when you are describing the physics of absorption are not helpful. You are stating tactics without a frequency and amplitude strategy. Your room will be a room filled with tactics that do not address the real frequency and amplitude issues at each room boundary location. Why waste time with bandaids when complete solutions are available.
@@AcousticFields there is on internet Porous absorber calculator. when insert air gap 0 a example damp reach at 95 hz damping 0.2 . with air gap 100 mm at 52 hz damping 0.2 . in corners it is easy to reach such a gap when put plates before. i invest not much money but get with near all corner damping with gaps much more decay reduction as when i put the plates more in front. same as with water waves. when they are broken on 2 distant places help alot
Have you calculated the modes for a room? Do you not see them ever lining up in corners? In most rooms I have calculated multiple modes wind up in the corners, and due to the pressure gradient principle the velocity is at or near zreo in the corner while the pressure is at maximum. Due to half space/quarter space principle. Bass is reinforced in corners and at junctions of wall/floor, wall/wall, ceiling/wall (it would be odd if it occurred at wall/floor). When I've done the math on how modes work in corners, it gets ugly fast. It resonates in a non-linear way which is not the harmonic series. That is why you don't see square saxophones or French Horns. It's that awful sound of an empty room with no furniture. I see here a lot of pointing out what you think are pitfalls in corner loading acoustic treatments. But I don't hear any solutions?
It is not the corners of the room that are producing the unwanted modal issues. It is the entire wall. To test this, treat the complete wall and you see you have no corner issues.
@@AcousticFields That's not an apples to apples comparison. The *correct* comparison is to apply the same amount of treatment in the corner, vs anywhere else on the wall. You will find that, given a fixed about of treatment, the corner is the best place to put it.
I’ve done the rock wool in the corner and my mixes were still mud. I found this video by accident. Then I built diaphragmatic absorbers for 40hz and the difference is night and day. It makes me question how many other channels actually know what they’re talking about or if they’re just repeating what they’ve heard. I’ve watched half your videos and it’s surprising the amount of knowledge you give away for free. I saw people in forums say you sold snake oil and I know they’ve never even tried your products so it sounded foolish. I’m assuming they said that because they don’t have the money to treat their room correctly and it’s easier for them to put your products down. When I start bringing in enough money to invest some back into my studio I’ll be saving up to buy your products. Thank you for your hard work. I wish so many other people could find the wealth of REAL knowledge available on your channel.
Thank you for your comments. Forums are full of layers of ignorance built on half - truths, exaggeration, and hyperbole.It is the blind leading the blind. Most people who are giving advice on how to build a room, have never built one in their lives. We have built over 350. The reasons companies give for their designs, preys upon the ignorance of their customers regarding basic physics. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of physics can see through most claims. Unfortunately, our school systems do not educate people in the hard sciences. The world would be much better off if our school systems rewarded knowledge instead of feelings. Companies would not be able to get away with the claims they make which defy most current laws of physics. No one would purchase their lies.
I'm not sure I really follow your point. Of course, corner treatment by itself doesn't too much.. but if its big (where it starts to take up adjacent walls) it certainly makes a measurable impact in most rooms. After all a corner is really just two walls meeting (or three), and corner trapping therefore is able to hit a (small) portion of all surfaces. Certainly in small rooms you do not suggest that the corners remain empty? I think you could have presented this a bit better. The presentation and title almost are trending into clickbait. Put 3 foot diameter corner bass traps in small room floor to ceiling and tell me that is not going to decrease LF decay times or even out some peaks and nulls depending on flow resistivity of the material used. "You can't just treat corners" would be more accurate way of presentation, but treating corners is still an important part of overall room treatment.
We are all about resolution not bandaids. If you are happy with partial solutions then your goals have been achieved. We want the most resolution we can achieve in small rooms. Most "technologies" in the marketplace do not have the proper rates and levels of absorption to treat even the corner issues.
Most «commercial» corner «bass traps» should be called «medium traps» because that's mostly higher bass frequencies, mediums and highs that are absorb: unnatural sound and big room modes still unchanged. Typical porous material will be more effective around 1/4 wave length, so a typical 30 cm corner module : f = c/4d = (343 m/s)/(4*0,3 m)=285Hz and up; not very effective for the lowest room modes. These absorbents might even need some wood panels to preserve the highs.
@@rushmuzik Sorry rushmuzik, I'm just an enthusiast of music listening and I don't know anything about studios. In HiFi we just need to listen if there's any big problem or not, because our brain doesn't hear like a microphone (narrow cancellations in a graph might not be a problem). If there's a problem like big room modes, tones and a sound-meter might be enough for listeners in a small budget. Clients with more money should hire professionals, because a good room is the key of an audiophile system. As you know, room geometry is very important for designing the room, although these measurements doesn't always correlate exactly with reality. Your room is small and don't have ideal proportions to even room modes. My first tip would be to ignore people like me, because I'm not professional. Accuracy for music production is important and you will need to test and understand your room, because flexibility of walls and doors might change the theoretical calculations. The second tip would be to find first (very important)the best place for your chair for bass evenness and soundstaging, because you might measure some peaks around 56 Hz and cancellations around 80 Hz. In a typical forward studio distribution (chair 1/3 from the front wall), small monitors would be extremely close (like computer speakers). I tried a more HiFi listening setup (nearfield listening) in REW, and I found that small-monitors located 1 m from front wall (1/3 length) and the chair 1 m from back wall (1/3 length) with two (or more) small sealed subs aligned behind each speakers with optimal delays could be a good compromise. You will need to use some absorption panels for mid and high frequencies (reverberation times and reflections) like those designed by Acoustics Fields. Even if bass room modes might be extremely difficult to solve in your room, cancellations can be reduced by adjusting the chair-speakers position and some bass treatment. More tips -remember that I have no idea and you shouldn't follow my advises- would be to mix for tonality and soundstaging only with the mini-monitors, adjust de bass frequencies with earphones, and finally have fun with equalization of the room modes (cut peaks and leave cancellations untouched) and the subs switched on. The last tip: keep money in your wallet until you know better your room, have more experience (how your music sounds in other systems and correlate with your room) or another bigger room.
I have corner bass traps that are floor to ceiling with diffusion on the front of each bass trap in 3 corners of my room. Sounds bitchin and looks epic. But I also see your point. Surface area covered has more of an impact that corner coverage. Now that I have rear wall quadratic diffusion, a properly installed cloud, 1st and second reflection points covered and all corners trapped, I'm going to move into trapped the ceiling corners adjacent to my mixing position, and bring in more diffusion and absorption in the back half of the room which is still lacking in coverage. Slowly slowly it is coming together but each element is making it sound better and better. I love this stuff so much!
Keep going with your efforts. It will be a great learning tool for you. Keep us posted. Send us a response curve as you move through the process so we can see your progress.
If a booming modal frequency is the primary issue of concern, then I'd agree that a corner midbass trap is not the solution. It's important to remember though that modal frequencies are not the only problems, and often not the most audible problems with rooms. Corner placed midbass/ lower midrange traps with treble scattering can very effectively improve the measured and perceived clarity at the listening position. It's not just modal frequencies that get stuck bouncing back and forth between parallel surfaces. All frequencies with short enough wavelength to form a traveling wave will also bounce back and forth repeatedly, eventually reaching the listener's ears with significant delay. If an early reflection causes an immediate wave cancel effect at the listening position, this can result in a non-modal frequency getting seriously time smeared, losing a lot of musical definition at the listening position as the initial attack is weak, while the delayed bouncing from the front of the room and back again hit the listener's ears louder than the initial direct sound from the speaker, after the note should have stopped, making it so that you can't hear when the notes start and stop. Corner placed traps unquestionably improve the situation in most rooms.
Our mission statement is all about room resolution. You can not achieve that degree of resolution with just corner treatments. If you treat the complete wall issues, the corner issues disappear. Always treat the source of the issue.
@@AcousticFields I agree that the very best thing to do is treat all the walls and ceiling and floor too l if it's a cost no object project. Build a room from scratch if you can. Still, I've been fascinated with my own cost limited projects at how I could effectively reduce an audible problem with a very limited but strategically placed treatment. People shouldn't despair and give up entirely if they aren't in a position to go all in on a full room treatment. There's worthwhile goodness to be had with much more modest projects, such as just focusing on the front corners of the room.
I never thought corner traps had to do with problems because those waves are created by wave reflections BETWEEN walls. Bass traps were for issues such as STANDING WAVES.
@@wty1313 Well, standing waves are indeed caused by wave reflections between walls. If you look at a typical sized home listening room there are actually complex standing waves that go well up into the midbass. We don't tend to think of them like we do the lower ones, where you get really large areas of super low level, and other large areas of peaks. Instead there are lots of peaks and dips closely spaced throughout the room. But, in every case, there is always a peak pressure for every one of those modes in all the tri-corners of the room. So if you put a bass/ midbass trap there you're going to be sure to get after all of them to some degree. In other parts of the room there are peaks as well, but they are in different locations for each frequency.
My studio is in a square bedroom. I created some homemade acoustic panels, along with buying some acoustic foam and bass trap cubes for the corners. Bass traps are only a small portion of the solution. You need to treat the entire room. All the guitars that hang on my wall also act as diffusers. I'm going to install cloud panels as well. I can already hear a difference and so can my wife. The room is way more silent than it used to be. In addition, most of the boominess of the bass has dissipated.
Guitars that hang on the walls do not act as diffusers. They redirect sound but it is un predictable. Diffusion requires a completely different technology with many room issues resolved prior to installation.
My experience: as you move towards the corner the bass is accentuated. If you do not have mics (tracking) or listeners (mixing room) near the corners, corner traps might not help you much. I was building mixing rooms for TV and film, usually just a mixer and one client. Traps did not usually matter, but when the client brought the production team in for review and the rear couch and chairs (nearer the corners) were filled and people were standing all around the room. The corner traps helped to level the bass across a larger area. It basically expanded the usable area for effective listening. This is why I never applied corner traps on the screen wall. No one stands back there. If you want to be able to use your entire space and not have the effect of bass concentration in the corners, corner traps can be quite effective. I am building a home studio room. I will be the only one in there, and will rarely be near a corner. I am not intending to install corner traps.
If the ultimate resolution is desired in your room, you must treat the sources of all issues. If you treat the walls which are the source of the corner issues, you treat the cause and not the symptom. This industry is full of band aids that the uniformed fall for.
Besides audio. You just resumed what people live every day with product marketing ( any product ) , the lost of common sense , the lack of education and/or interest to learn, etc. Thanks!
There are as many variables with humans as you can think of. Most of the ones you have mentioned are "noise" related when it comes to the science of physics. We try and take the complicated and make it simplier. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we do not.
The corner idea has valid logic behind it and I will just quote Floyd Toole a little here: "at a reflecting boundary, pressure is at a maximum, and particle velocity is at a minimum" A corner is two adjacent reflecting boundaries, so (sound) pressure is the greatest at these points. The logical conclusion would be to place absorbers here, because it's the loudest, right? The issue is that stuff like rockwool absorbers are resistive absorbers, which counteract particle movement. But now we know that particle movement is at a minumum near the walls, which means the walls&particularly the corner is actually the worst place in the room to put a resistive absorber. A resistive absorber is best put in a null, where subsequently particle movement is highest, which is at 1/4 of the wavelength away from the wall (of the frequency of interest; over 1m for bass frequencies). This is why the 'air gap' behind the absorber works, simply because it moves the absorber *away* from the point where it has the least impact. Now, what do we do with the corners, where SPL is greatest? This is where tuned absorbers like membrane absorbers or helmholtz resonantors come in. These would need to be specifically built for the frequency your room is having issues with, which is why it is unappearling for the general consumer - it is not a quick and convenient 'universal' solution and also costs more than a wooden frame with some rockwool inside.
If you treat the wall surface area with a minimum 50% surface area treatment coverage with our technology, you have no corner issues. The greatest pressure is not in the corners at all frequencies and it also depends on the location of the sound source is regards to the room boundary surfaces.The greatest pressure is between two walls. This is an easy experiment to perform. Walk around your room with an SPL meter while you are generating a 40 hz. sine wave. Measure the pressure levels along the walls and corners. Repeat for 50, 60, 70 hz. and you will understand that the greatest pressures at all frequencies are not in the corners but between two surface areas. Building insulation will not provide the proper rates and levels of absorption for music and voice. Stay away from that material type if resolution is your goal.
It is the whole wall that is producing the unwanted pressure issues. You are placing a bandaid on an arterial cut. Spend the money treating the complete problem.
Not true...the corners CAN and do have high pressure...just stand in the corner and hear how much louder the bass sounds....I am a expert in the field as well with dozens of patents and have been building speakers for 50 plus years...any simulation tool will show this
You are chasing your tail. Treat the whole wall and forget about the corners. Do you have data comparing treating the whole wall surface compared to treating just the corners. When you treat the whole wall, the corner pressure subsides and becomes a non issue.
Hmm...i didnt buy 'corner traps' but corner diffusers, werent expensive and made a huge difference in the low mids ie 120-250hz..rew corfirmed it. The clarity is now so much easier 'seeing' the low mids during mixdown Also, when im using boundary mics in a corner, i pick up an extra 6db if placed in a corner and the crown mentioned additional gain used in 3 corners
@@AcousticFields the real point everybody wants to find out is where to put the bass absorption to be more effective, not that they are fools chasing their tails for trying to know that. Yes, treating the whole walls will be effective. Better yet, why don't they treat the whole floor and ceiling too? That would be even more effective, as it will cover 100% of the room. But for most people that's ridiculous. It seems that your aim is to maximize your sales, instead of delivering better acoustic advice.
My computer desk room is very small, and somewhat part of the living room. Without it, the reverberation is almost ear piercing. After installing it, its miles better than before, paired with felt wall panels, you can definitely see and feel a difference. I think its about the size of the room youre in. In my case, the walls were very close together, making echos more prominent. Not to mention that the back wall was thin. But if its a large room, not much difference will be made or noticable.
I do think you are totally right that overall a much better approach is to build your own panels to treat all the walls AND ceiling. Build your own diffusors. And cloud. A DiY approach, where the cost is the materials, and the goal is maximum treatment is much better than _buying_ some premade 'corner traps'. The only advantage I see of favouring corners, if you really are going to only treat 10% of a room, is that often times corners can be wasted space in a studio. Which I guess is one of the reasons the area behind the monitors often gets treated expensively, and also sometimes the back wall behind the listening position (also for reflections too). I wouldn't want to put a guitar cab, bass cab, speakers, mic area or listening position right in a corner. So it's not the worst place in a room to lose room to treatment. Also, maybe, just maybe, it can also be easier to naturally have an air gap, behind say an 8" panel, if it's placed across a corner, the prism shaped air gap would be somewhat marginally beneficial to absorption? But you are the expert, so I wonder if that is true, or not?
Air gaps are of minimal benefit. Our goal is resolution and most people are about putting band aids on issues that do not contribute to resolution. Resolution is a step by step process that starts with lower frequency management first and foremost.
I think a big missing point from a lot of people is that corners are ultra reinforced. windows and the center of flat walls can breathe a bit, but brick/concrete/corners are so reinforced that less energy can escape, especially because the waves angle of incidence is glancing
Walls do not "breathe". Noise transmission is all about managing vibrational transfer. The unwanted corners pressures are a symptom of the wall dimension. Treat the wall, no corner issue.
This made total sense, I've been wondering about trying bass traps, not because I have bass issues but precisely to just experiment if they do anything at all. My room is not symmetrical, wooden walls, not a parallel ceiling either. If anything I wanted to try them to see if I got more bass in some way. In any case, of all the videos I've seen none have said this, and this is of total logic, what happens on the walls ends up on the corners, so fix the walls and you fixed your corners nd not the other way around. It does make a lot of sense to me.
It is best to develop a strategy for your room. Using tactics without knowing why or how is a recipe for failure and a drained bank account. Lets take a look at your whole room and start with the largest and most audible distortions first. To start the process, fill out the information in this link. www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/ Follow the software and schedule a time slot to speak with Dennis regarding your room issues.
Well considering you have way more wall space than corner space, it makes sense that treating the entire wall will make a bigger difference. That's a lot of absorption. But what if you have a limited budget? Like only a few 4'x2'x4" absorbers or whatever. Do you put them in the corners, or somewhere along the wall? I'm under the impression that placing your bass traps in the corners is a way to maximize the effectiveness of what you have when you don't have much to work with.
We are not about partial fixes. We are all about achieving the ultimate resolution possible. There are numerous other companies that sell bandaids made from building insulation. We want no part of that approach.
@@AcousticFields Wow. I wouldn't have expected you to just outright say it. Interesting approach. Very Gibson. Looks like the acoustic treatment field has its share of snobbish gatekeeping as well. Well y'all have fun.
@@AcousticFields OK, fair. What about the general approach of using broadband porous absorbers with appropriate thickness and air gaps to reach into the bass ranges. Are you categorically opposed to the use of porous absorption for this purpose?
@@Sunporchmedia That material type lacks the rate of absorption required for small room, low frequency, amplitudes. You cant build enough of that material type to get low enough and get enough to get proper amount for balance room decay rates.
Given that the corners are the common nodes for the room's modes in all three directions, is it accurate to say they yield the most absorption for the least amount of area?
Room modes are distributed throughout the room and low frequency energy oscillates in cycles throughout the room volume. The oscillations can occur at 3-4' intervals depending on frequency of issue. An axial mode is produced by unwanted pressure between two parallel walls, not two parallel corners. The industry has perverted the modal definition is order to sell corner units to the uniformed public.
@@AcousticFields On the whole I agree with you: To treat the bass modes in a room, you have to treat the entirety of the parallel walls. I can only imagine the marketing nonsense implying that bass collects itself in corners. If I understand it correctly, corner traps are like cornerstones. You can't just grab four of them and have an effective wall. But comparing them to the rest of the stones, they are somewhat more important. The corner location is marginally more effective because it exists at three modal peaks: one each in the length, width, and height dimensions. Perhaps the result is that you get the effect of 5% coverage for 2-3% of material. Or more accurately, the corner locations are capable of damping more energy compared to other locations with 1 or 2. You still need to treat the other locations, the same way you need other stones to build a wall.
@@BrazenRain For low frequency management, most of our projects dictate a 50 - 65% surface area coverage on all four walls and either the floor or ceiling.
Thanks - this video saved me from wasting money on overpriced corner traps - I'll just go with regular panels and make them as deep as I can. Corner traps are not designed to give an air gap which significantly reduces their performance. What % of the room surface area would make a significant impact? What depth of panels do you recommend - even with 20cm deep and 20cm air gap panels seem to struggle to significantly affect under 100hz and certainly under 60hz. I don't even really want to give up 40cm on most of the walls in my room. Most studio rooms I see on youtube seem to have about 10-15 120x60cm panels. What absorbition coefficient do you need to make a significant impact? Is 0.4? 0.6? 0.8? Generally under 100hz seems to taper from 0.8 down to 0.2 (or 0.4 if your using 30cm deep with 30cm airgap.
Air gaps are window dressing with little value for low frequency pressure waves. Use diaphragmatic absorption since it represents the most powerful per square foot of all absorption technologies. You will need to give up 12" of wall space to reach down to 30 Hz.
It’s way more cost effective to treat the corners first. If some problems still remain after that, continue with the walls. No point in debating what order the problems were caused. In that case you should start with treating the speakers. They are the root of the problem. If that doesn’t help remove the amp.
Treating a symptom without treating the source of the problem will not assist you with achieving higher resolution. Always treat the cause of the corner issue which is the wall itself.
We are in an era of communication. However, the information that is communicated is mostly sales speak which is designed to sell rather than solve issues.
Thanks I'm over here looking at a floor plan and my common sense was like I'm not standing in the corner, so it may be best for the bass to stay their lol.my listening zone is fine slowly covering walls with recyclable materials appreciate the secondary weight. Quoted 4 k for clouns alone
Our mission is resolution. In order to achieve high resolution of issues, you must first focus directly on the cause of the distortion not the symptom.
Thanks. I enjoy watching your videos. Humor a laymans' thinking and questions, please. My understanding is that room corners form a "horn" that amplifies the sound reflecting from it, but not evenly across the range of frequencies. This seems to result in a "boom" or "blatt" of distorted tone emanating from the corner. Is that actually the sound from the whole surface of the interacting walls? Is the corner a focal point with more amplitude? I imagine that each corner is producing its own particular sound. I'm thinking that people put what they hope in absorptive treatment into the corners to reduce what they think is a "hotspot." Is that useful, though inadequate to addressing the room acoustics?
Would building a 5 sided room help with room modes? I have a 15'x15' room and am thinking about building a pentagon inside that is slightely longer than it is wide, with the gaps between the 4 and 5 sided walls filled with rock wool or R19 in the air gap.
If I’ve treated the walls thuroughly with broadband absorption, what is a good solution for absorbing any remaining excess base frequencies? Membrane traps perhaps?
Membrane are the cousins to diaphragmatics. They perform the same with membrane having lower rates of absorption through their design parameters. To target a certian frequency or octave band, you would use Helmholtz.
Okay I get what you're saying BUT it is quite apparent that bass builds up more in the corners. just stand in a room with music playing and walk to the corners, and its very obvious. Bass builds near walls from the pressure as you have taught us and a corner is a double wall. or potentially even a triple wall. so for bass management would that mean that corners are the most effective place to treat/absorb this?
@@AcousticFields your answer to Nick's question is nonsense. He was talking about the additional pressure gain achieved when two or three orthogonal boundaries (walls) are joined, and you respond something about noise transmission? Really, what does noise transmission have anything to do with acoustic boundaries? It's you who is confusing things, professor.
I think he was meaning that it’s meant for amplification of sound transmission for its performance purpose. I don’t think what he said was irrelevant, though I can see how it can be easily misinterpreted. If you think about the definition of a room mode, and the two parallel surfaces, if you treat the corner, then theoretically you would be treating up to one side of the parallel surface modes (room modes) except for up to three different angles. So technically it would give you coverage over different areas but in no way is it doing magic in its efficiency. Covering the big elephant in the room is more effective, which is the largest wall with the largest parallel surface. Im not sure if the ceiling would excluded but I think it would be because we have carpet and furniture and things in our rooms so it helps to mitigate it from being a primary concern given this criteria.
Very good points! I don't actually know what issues I'm going to have yet because I haven't finished building the system. The room is 28' deep screen wall to back wall with an entry way on each side at the back. So screen wall to each entry door is about 31'-6"... I think, might actually be 32' and the room is 21' wide and 11' ceiling. The control room for the projector and front end equipment is behind the back row of seating. I have a large cutout on one side originally intended to face front end equipment into the theater but I decided to take that out. Next I decided maybe not take it out but instead put 6" of acoustic material like Rockwool in the opening and trim it out on both sides with decorative grill cloth etc. Then duplicate it on the other side. It's maybe 21" x 42" or so, just estimating. The two openings would be about 12 sqft. It would end up being 13 ~ 14% of that wall area of basically resistive/reactive opening to another space. Maybe it's not worth it, maybe I go back to the plan of covering over the original opening. Or, there is room there, I could make additional openings, maybe get the area up to 25 ~ 30%. Then of course there are also the entry ways so even with the original opening closed, well over 30% of the back is 31 ~ 32' deep so with the two opening idea, about 50% is 28' from the screen wall and 50% 31 ~ 32'. Maybe it works! Because it's mostly surrounded by attic space, I can put as many independently DSP controlled woofers as I want in the attic firing into the room anywhere along the sidewalls. I've got around twenty 15" drivers already on hand and plenty of DSP modules, and amplifiers so that might be the best approach. I'll know more once I get the basic system finished and see what bass issues I have.
I see many issues I do not like with your drescribed project. Fill out the info in this link. You can include up to 6 pics / form. Fill out seperate form for each room size/volume/usage. Lets then discuss by phone. www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
I have seen your comments about absorption being different, and videos about effectiveness of absorption from towels and moving blankets. Would a folded moving blankets hung over a corner floor to ceiling count as a bass trap?
I got a 8H 12W 14L room, i set my setup pretty standard like middle of the of width, listening position is a third of the length, equilateral to the 2 monitors. My problem is i cant hear bass within the half of the room close to the monitors. Why does it happen? Is there a fix?
You must pressure balance the room so you are not missing any frequencies. Your room dimensions are producing unwanted pressure pockets that will not allow you to hear certain sounds. Fill out the info in this link. Lets take a look at your specific issues. www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
The perception of Bass improved for small 13 × 11.5ft living room with the purchase of a second subwoofer, but that was more for seat to seat perception. What really made the biggest difference was getting the couch off the back wall by a couple of feet. The placement of the MLP is just as important as the placement of the stereo speakers.
I'm glad I found you before I spent money on my bass traps. I am using absorption in the back of the room and behind guitar amp, and diffusion panels on the first reflection points and the ceiling. Recording a guitar amp with one mic directly in front and one in the room. On a budget, going to have to do best with what I got.
@@AcousticFields Thanks for replying. I feel a little bit better about this, my heads exploded in recent days with research. Going to begin with placing corner pieces floor to ceiling behind the amp, and ceiling to wall down the long sides of the room. With some recordings to hear changes, if Im happy with the difference I'll move on to paneling.
Alcoves and corners have dimensions. The dimensions, just like a room, determine what the frequency of resonance will be. Amplitude or strength of that resonance will be dtermined by the SPL used within the room.
What so you recommend one is to do when facing a family room in a single family residence that features an “alcove” meant for the tv or whatever? Is it optimal to put bass trap in the walls recess/indent of about 2ft x 7 ft (alcove)?
Dennis tells it like it is. Lay people must decide if they want a “good looking” or “good sounding” room. Achieving both is difficult, expensive, and nearly impossible (all things being equal.) I have mostly opted for good looking rooms. They are cheaper, easier to build, and most listeners cannot tell the difference. The result is a room that people like the look of however sounds minimally improved.
Sure, you can treat the whole wall but the corners are where lower frequencies end up... and so it only makes sense to have something MUCH thicker in the corners.
The corners are not where the lower frequencies build up. The walls are the source of all issues. You are using a tactic without a strategy. The thickness of a material type does not indicate its overall performance.
I’m a music professor, not a physicist…but have scientists/engineers in my family. I understand what your saying, but pardon me for saying that this is a bit condescending. Yes I’m not a physicist, but even “layman” research, trial and error and trusting your ears can go a long way. Every room encounters unique challenges, something you yourself have expressed. Size, dimensions, construction materials, shared use of a space, etc. I’m finding serious improvements from treating the corners of my small 2.1 listening room. I’d considered before placing bass treatment behind speakers, but only have 19 inches to the front wall to play with since the room is not entirely my own for use. This also inhibits putting very much behind and adjacent to the listening position. Considering the benefits I’ve encountered and my limited placement choices, corner traps may be the best option. Should I instead place enormous traps in the soffits? I’d have to see if that would be acceptable for everyone using the space.
You should look at the room as a whole and quantify and qualify your issues. You then take the largest distortions and treat those first working your way through the pressure to reflection paradigm.
@@AcousticFields I agree, find the worst offender(s) & deal with those first. As someone online said - it's about changing the ratio of direct projected sound to reflected sound. Any improvement in that ratio will yield sonic benefits. Why not try the inexpensive fixes first ? ie treating the corners
When you treat the corners, you will quickly realize that the corners were a waste of time. The wall effects will jump out and be more pronounced. Spend your energy and dollars treating the whole wall.
This is true corners are a small percentage of the room and have to be treated, but the corners concentrate a lot of bass and have to be treated as well
Do you have any data on % treatment coverage vs % perceived improvement? I'm assuming it would follow close to the 80/20 rule where 20% (proper) treatment will get you about 80% of the way... thoughts?
It increases absorption of frequencies under 1Khz, yet not by much. Just make sure the air gap is the same as the absorber thickness, not more, for maximum efficiency.
Hi Dennis, I love your videos because its the truth alot of people dont understand why they should buy a helmholt resonator and diaphragmatic bass management panels so they buy cheap rubbish and think their room sounds better but really it just sounds more dead and isnt doing the job its meant to. Also room modes they dont understand if you treat your axiel modes properly you have a postive impact on fixing those problems. people rather try make their studio look cool but not actually test their room to understand the issues. a proper control room should cost alot of money depending on your size room that price tag varies. Big rooms = less lower end treatment maybe so required. Small rooms very difficult price wise to get down to the low end, but to understand the physics you need to spend the money. Physics doesnt lie. I have done acoustic testing on so many peoples rooms and I tell them we need your diaphragmatic panels for the low end, then they freak out at the price tag. so then I tell them I cant help you sorry without spending money you wont be able to solve the issues you need to. I like to start with the axiel modes first. I can feel your frustration because people just dont get it. I know people with $200k+ worth of expensive gear and have no acoustics, this has me very worried people dont believe me because they think expensive gear is good. well it is good but room is telling you its not. Everyone please get your room sorted before buying anything dont try look flash honestly your wasting your money.
The main issue is a false belief system based upon a lack of understanding of the laws of physics. Companies perpetuate false claims because people have no understanding of why the claim is false. One of the most recent ones I have seen involves "soundproof paint". Yes, paint is marketed as a barrier technology. People call me and ask me how to use it correctly. They ask if more layers will produce better noise attenuation.
important topic and its so sad that corner bass traps are all over the webshops and it is misleading. for me to get a result from corner absorption i stacked 4 panels diagonal across my corner, it reaches 30% into the sidewalls and its floor to ceiling, panels are 8" thick, 48" wide in total.
If you think the corner treatment made an improvement, you should listen to the results of treating the cause of the problem which is the whole wall. The defintion pf an axial mode is the unwanted pressure between two parallel walls not two corners. Corner treatment is a bandaid when it comes to achieving the highest resolution possible which is our stated mission.
I have bass traps in the corners and my room is still meh. I contact them... and they say "you only have 3" traps in the corners, you need our new 17" soffit bass trap from floor to ceiling in the corner". That would cost like $500 per corner. What?!?
If it’s only parallel surfaces, then why does corner loading a subwoofer create more bass in the opposite diagonal corner? And given that this is true, I would assume absorbing some frequencies in a corner, would reduce the reflections of those frequencies? And what’s wrong with helping a little, when you do a multitude of things that do a little you end up with a lot, and once again, you offered no solution.
@@AcousticFields yes which is why we try to place our subs at quarter or half wavelengths in the room. But what is your solution to absorbing low frequency sound waves, where they accumulate in the corners, and reflect in all directions? We’re all just trying to do what we can with what budget we have.
@@mwrightinsurance You can't position yourself away from room modes that are oscillating every 3-4' in the room. If you miss one, you will fall into another. We have many pressure absorbing technologies. You can find them at this link www.acousticfields.com/shopping/
The definition of a room mode is unwanted pressure between two parallel walls not two parallel corners. This is an example of another bandaid that won't stay on.
All lower frequency pressure issues and middle and high frequency reflec tions must be managed with different technologies. There is no one size fits all.
@@AcousticFields Yes I understand. But the tubetrap has its limited surface and if you put it in a corner, it has two walls that are building up pressure instead of one. The pressure should be higher in the corner, I think.
Not correct. The pressure produced by the toral wall surface area with its dimensions, is much larger than the corners. Treat the larger issues first. Once you treat the wall, you can forget about the corners.
Thanks for your videos. I’m trying to treat a large studio that has a lot of potential and I’m fighting to get more coverage and to do it right but I’m dealing with, so in so said. You remind me of my Acoustically engineering professor I had 30 years ago.
I have a suggestion for a measurement video that you can make. 1. Measure the untreated room for reference. 2. Measure the effect of low frequency absorbers in the corners vs. other locations. Where do they perform the best? 3. Measure the fully treated room. To get an idea of the overall improvements. 4. Present the details, like room size, number + type of absorbers used, the freq response + waterfall measurements and the conclusion. Basically, it is a video where you demo the absorbers and the science behind treating room modes. I think it would be interesting for many people to see the measurements. Thanks.🙂
This described measurement process would be a waste of time, money, and energy. The corners are not the issue. Look to the definition of modes for your answers.
@@AcousticFields If you take out step 2 then you have the process that you should be doing already (right?). Put step 2 back in and you have a great opportunity to bust the corner myth. Taking a few extra measurements cant be that big of a deal.
@@djbremsespor whats with super extreme dorks that cant just freaking listen to music out of some decent 4k of home 2 channel audio and have some average sound treatment for a few hundred dollars only. Mind blowing anyone making say under 200k a year whom would say spend 100k on sound absorbing or dampening bs. 98% of people make sub 200k . My uncle whom is worth 50million and likes good audio dont even have any sound absorbing etc in his mansion and the audio sounded fine . most people can give 2f's less if they some how dont hear a certain hz of sound due to improper treatment. Im finally buying some decent speakers and a decent hifi dac to stream from Tidal and i can garanteeeeeee ill be blown away in comparison to my logitech z5500 system that has 4in sattelite speakers as mid high and buzz on many frequencies .
A definition, probably incomplete in order to prove what you want, is not science. A test is science. You are currently wasting time, money and energy doing things according to something that it's not proven. And trying to make other people do the same...
All your videos are great to raise more questions and to show how much people don't know. It is a nice marketing system, but it is not useful for people who want to understand more and/or manufacture their own panels. Also, I know your acoustics products are great, but most are beyond theater owners pockets.
Total surface area is not the only consideration. Anyone with measuring tools can debunk this video easily. Corner traps are not just marketing. This is the second video on this channel I've seen that are plainly false.
@@AcousticFields The fact that the corner is the best place to observe the 1/4 wavelength rule without taking up a bunch of room space. This topic is way more complex than you're making it seem. You would be correct in saying that it's nonsense that "bass builds up in the corners". I think that's the root of the rumor you're trying to dispel, and you're right about that, but it's way more complicated than "less surface area means they're useless". This video doesn't take in account air pressure and velocity of the waves. To put it simply, putting a corner trap in the corner of your room allows you to hit the 1/4 wavelength points of frequency lower than if you placed them against a flat wall, while saving space.
thank you so much! So much misinformation given by companies. I am glad I never fell for it. Prices on bass traps etc at these companies is absolutely ridiculous. Glad I found you. As horrible as your truths are, I appreciate the straight forward brute honesty. I'm so sick of studio designers who think they know the whole science and then make us pay big bucks to have a studio that does not function the way it should and cost 10 times as much. I had a bunch of "know it alls" tell me to buy Owens corning 703/705 to make traps etc. Only to find out that the recipies have changed over the last decade and the 703/705 stuff is useless. I have a garage full of this stuff.
Hello Dennis... Thanks for the tons of valuable inputs. Very informative video. Sharing this across all my groups. Just one more tough question I have had to face : Active Bass Traps [With the Woofer and Mic] Please do make a video on the same. A comparison with passive bass traps vs Active bass traps.
Treating the corners of rooms is like holding up a feather to stop a tornado. Treating maybe 10% (corners) of the offending surface areas (walls) is not enough surface area coverage to have a positive impact on unwanted modal pressure issues.
lol I have an attic room with a desk height wall that turn into a ceiling just above ear height.. a full opposing wall closet and a large mattress. oddly enough I don't have two parallel walls unobstructed. dead. wall loaded tiny satellites and a desktop loaded subwoofer. it's just enough to give energy in the right spot and shares the same grill that allows my computer to cool. pretty sure my room measurements would be terrible. i just get over it
I almost bought some. But didn’t because I saw a frequency response chart showing the bass trap only affecting frequencies at incredibly low levels. Like 300hz. For my talking voice that’s basically a non issue plus the walls and ceiling aren’t treated yet so why bother with some foam triangles😅
Foam is not a "bass trap". The corners are not enough treatment space when the whole wall is producing the unwanted pressure issue. Corner treatment is a marketing scam. Thank you for sharing a real world example. We need more of these testimonials like this to bury this false belief system.
Thank you. We try and make the complicated easier to understand along with pushing through the outright falsehoods created by the industry to sell their boxes.
It is the whole wall producing the modal issues. Placing treatment in the corners is a bandaid. It is mostly a marketing gimmick to sell product. If you treat the complete wall surface area, you have no corner issues.
I am sorry, but which company says: "Just buy this bass trap and only put it in the corner. This alone will solve all your issues"? Come on, that is just silly hearsay. Obviously companies want to (and should) sell more absorbers for the whole room.
I think the reason why many customers get disappointed is due to the price. In general, treating a room gets expensive really quick. "Add to Cart", click, click, click, aaaand it's gone. And what you got was barely enough to do any good, no matter how great the technology is or where you place it.
What companies should do and what they do are completely different. Why do we receive 10 - 15 calls per week from people who are not satisfied. What is driving this dissatisfaction?
@@AcousticFields Probably because some unprivileged bedroom producers are not ready to accept that it actually requires spending > 10k to get a satisfactory result in their sad little room. If they can afford only 1 or 2 of your absorbers they would not be satisfied either. The entry price level for a real solution that does not suck is too high for most.
@@djbremsespor hahaha. 10k? A measuring mic and some free education, using ones ears and not giving up until it sounds good is what it takes. Its not a problem going from raw walls to acceptable results. Its the remaining few percents until a perfect pro studio that is hard and expensive. And finding a good room in the first place. Most dont look for an appartment with a studio room in mind.
Hi @@theswedishmusicstudio The 10k reference was based on AF's products which I do expect to be satisfactory for pro studios and obviously amateurs want that kind of result as well. Sure, it is possible to get "acceptable result" (whatever that means to you) by DIY. But I dont think the reason for "10 - 15 calls per week from people who are not satisfied" is due to DIY folks whining about the "remaining few percents". Cheers.
I'm the past, Leather sofas were seen as great bass trap. Why is isn't leather curved surface effective in a small room for diffusing low end without making the room too dull? Semi porous leather seems to suit the purpose well. Is like a acoustic panel with wood panels in it.
Not in our past. Furnture is not an acoustical tool. The rates and levels of absorption are unpredictable. Without performance predicatabilility and consistency in any applied acoustical tool you are jsut spinning your wheels.
This is not a true statement. Take an SPL meter and measure different places in the room. You will see that the greatest pressues lie between the walls as is specified in the definition of modes.
@@AcousticFields according to AI my statement is true. "...Low-frequency waves are omnidirectional and can fill a room, reflecting off walls, ceilings, and floors. When these waves reach corners, they tend to get trapped and build up because corners act as a natural amplifier for bass frequencies. This effect is known as "room modes" or "standing waves."
@@svtcontour I think I already know what @AcousticFields is going to say. No one doubts that bass traps can work in the corners. However, the point here is to combat the problem with low frequencies where it arises. Not just when the disturbing sound waves have accumulated in the corners. To put it in layman's terms. It's a bit like drinking alcohol. Drinking a little bit throughout the evening is fun. The same amount of alcohol in 10 minutes is not fun. Haha, I know, not funny.
@@svtcontour All that is true. However, it does mention amplitude. When working in small rooms, you work from the areas of higher amplitude first and then your goal is to achieve a pressure balance throughout the room volume. The highest amplitudes of energy are not found in the corners. Their amplitudes are above baseline but nothing in comparison to room boundary surface to room boundary surface.
@@AcousticFieldscorner traps work best on velocity, not pressure. If you're trying to solve a pressure issue you need both mass and surface area in the treatment solution.
Let me say again, I was so fortunate to find Dennis Foley and AF. When I moved to my current abode, I realized I needed treat my living/listening room. Saw all the b.s. products on YT etc. then discovered AF. Here was someone describing what I heard and why. Saved me so much time, money and frustration. Thanks Dennis.
It's an interesting point you're making for sure but you spent 7 minutes making the same point over and over instead of using any of that time providing solutions.
I am trying to change a belief system founded in half truths. The way to accomplish this belief change is to establish a new belief and then support that new belief system through message repetition. You have two main acoustical issues in small rooms. You have lower frequency pressure and reflections. Every wall is contributing to both of these issues. You must treat on average 50 - 65% surface area coverage for both reflection and pressure issues. Treatment types will vary but not the 50 - 65% coverage requirement.
I beg to differ. I do not have a physics background, i am simply a music lover who is also into the gear. For 50 years. I decided to experiment, so I bought a pack of 12 "mini bass traps" (about 10" long) designed to be used in the corners. Eezy peezy install with 2 sided tape. All I can say is "WOW" . Best improvement is in coherency of the soundstage. Improved vocals, improved bass. I simply couldn't believe the improvement. Like buying a new component, but kinda better. Go ahead, spend the $40.
If you think treating the corners made you say wow. Take that thinking a bit farther and treat two opposing walls. You will quickly realize that the corners offer little in comparison.
@@AcousticFields i would say below 340Hz. in my room, in Kyiv, Ukraine, i use big (23.6" diameter) DIY tube bass traps in two corners behind the speakers from floor to roof and two small tubes (D 15,7", H 40") side of the speakers. I hear and see changes on waterfall.
@@andallxr You are not using enough surface area coverage with the proper rates and levels of absorption. The depth of an absorber determines how low it will go down to or its resonant frequency. The rate is how much energy it absorbs at each octave band above the resonant frequency..
@@AcousticFields probably yes but it's a cheap way to improve room acoustics and it works with my room's main resonances at 70hz too of course there are other ways with other possibilities and with better results I chose this way and did it myself and I am happy to hear and see it gives me results, not big but still results 🤷♂🤷♂
We can get the treatment requirements without all of that travel chaos. Our data base has over 250 built and measured rooms in it. The data base will get you to an 80% resolution by specifying the treatment surface area requirements. We do it all the time. We can then voice the room through certain tests to squessze out an additional 10%. Fill out the info in this link: www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
Looking at a definition and negating perception is not my kind of thing. If you put yourself in front of the center of a wall while music is playing (or your voice), and then you go to a corner, you'll notice more bass in a corner. You can measure that to be more scientific, but you don't really need it because it's obvious. It's not the only thing you need to do, but it's an important part. You want to go for a different route? Ok, but you don't need to be pretentious and discredit others to go for your own path. You can create your business just offering your products and not doing what you're saying they do, contributing with more nonsense with basic and malicious marketing language.
Your observations regarding the accumulation of low frequency energies within a room are not empirically correct and your cited example shows nothing that would lend itself to understanding the physics behind room modal pressures. We are about the ultimate in room resolution addressing all variables. We state this in our Mission Statement on the home page. We seek and develop new technologies to manage all frequency issues within a room based upon our proprietary carbon and foam technologies. Your comments on our marketing approach shows another lack of understanding. Another lack of resolution.
If you treat just the corners, that is what you are doing. The corners represent 10% of wall surface area. Axial modes are produced by the unwanted pressure between two parallel walls, not two parallel corners,
I think it’s what people do when on an extremely tight budget with desire for better frequency response. But if you do the corners first n only, disappointing results will be the end result due to it ampllifying the imbalances of the room even more so than without the corner traps.
You must fight the pressure battle at the source of the problem. The corners are not the problem. When you treat the complete wall, the corner issues go away. That should tell you everything you need to know. Treating the corners is a bandaid that modal pressure laughs at.
It is the whole wall that is producing the modal issue by definition. Unwanted lower frequency pressure occurs between two walls not two corners. If you think corner treatment is good, wait until you treat the whole wall.
Bass traps work because they eliminate *bass* echoes which tend accumulate in corners. Low frequencies have too large wavelength they don't form standing waves between parallel surfaces. Acoustic wall paneling eliminates mid-high frequencies. They are complementary. Funny that you won't explain any of this, only claim it's marketing, then marketing your own products in the end.
More nonsense. "bass" does not echo and standing waves are the result of excess energy and long wavelengths that dont fit between walls whether they are parallel or not. The corner pressures are produced by the walls themselves. If you treat the wall surface areas, you have no corner pressure to treat.
@@AcousticFields There are two types of traps, velocity and pressure, they both can treat bass frequencies. Pressure traps are effective in corners, since that's where the bass frequencies accumulate. I'm still quite new to all this, thanks for the reply.
It is not the corners of the room that are your problem. If you treat the complete wall, you have no corner issues. Treating the corners deals with about 20% of the overall unwanted pressure issues.@@GreySectoid
I'll see if that works, just ordered a bunch of acoustic panels enough for the whole room, I know they will get rid of the mid-high frequency echo, but not sure about the bass.@@AcousticFields
Echo is a repeating signal usually over distance. Rooms do not have echo, they have reverberation which is defined as to how long a sound stays around within the room after it has been sung, spokken, or played. Every surface exhibits a different frequency and amplitude of reverb issue. Reverberation produces reflections. Managing reflections requires a completely different treatment type than lower frequency pressure. If the panels you ordered are full of building insulation and all the same type, get ready for a disappointing sound quality.@@GreySectoid
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I recently treated a new, small home studio (12x12) with homemade 2" x 72" x 24" foam panels made with cushion foam over 1/4" OSB. I did not add any bass traps, but the panels butt the corners and pretty much cover the length of the walls. One afternoon I just "happened" walk to the back of the room and into one of the corners and I literally hear and feel the concentration of bass in that corner alone, like stepping into a bass cabinet, WOW!-and it was not reflected back into the room or the console/monitor station to a noticeable degree. Never knew bass could collect in one place so much.
Lower frequency pressure oscillates throughout your room dimensions. If the dimensions are not compatable with the frequency wavelength, distortion occurs. You have cited one example of this distortion.
And because of the concentration of bass in corners is why bass traps in corners are quite effective and inexpensive. This has been measured to be true (including by myself).
You are Correct!! When I built a room for recording Drums, I just treated the Four Walls and Few Panels on the ceiling! The Recording, The Jamming session and Movie Viewing improved a Lot.!!
But, some of the Clients don't want to record in my room saying there is No Corner Trap and Say it will create issue during Processing without even trying it out.! The educational thing that You are talking about in this video is 100% true..
Just play them your demos. Either they are good or they're are not. Rooms matter only so much. Look at all the variations that have good results, regardless of clowns like this video person.
Every surface of the room produces some type of pressure or reflection issue.
Your explanation is excellent. When I started adding sound treatment, I went for the corner treatment first which did provide some improvement. The slight improvement helped me ask more questions, better questions to get better results.
Rememeber that it is the whole wall(s) that are producing the pressure and reflection issues.
Your perspective is so different from the others. I do not know who to trust yet but really appreciate your sharing.
This industry is full of half truths, exaggeration, and outright lies. We guarantee our product's performances and you can see some of our projects at this link.
www.acousticfields.com/projects/.
If you have a room you wish treated, fill out the information in this link and schedule a call. This is a free service.
www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
About 5 years ago, I cut rockwool into large triangles, and stacked them on a frame in the upper corner of the front wall. The whole stack is about 15" thick. It reduced a bit of the resonance at low frequencies that screamed out for attention with some music (piano in particular).
Didn't fix the room by any means, but was a cheap, quick and made things more tolerable until I could get around to doing something more affective.
Thank you for sharing your experience. The problem with the acoustic belief systems today is that technologies are viewed as absolutes. If it is a sound absorption product, it absorbs everything. All is well no more needs to be done. Using tactics, that do not have the proper rates and levels of absorption to treat the appropriate frequency and amplitude of the issues, will never work. People need to realize those limitations. When realized as in your situation, most will seek higherr resolution. Our thinking is to achieve the highest resolution you can with using the fewest tactics. 100 % fixed, 100% right.
@@AcousticFields try with a room calculator a gap between foam and wall give better low bass damping .when you put a plate in the corner there happen a distance gap to the wall in the middle. this distance to foam damp low bass more but is less effective at mid frequency. also keep in mind when a reflection hit the basstrap in corner it can be reflectet and hit the other side of the basstrap and is damped twice. overall i think damping in corners give not more as 15% more as on normal wall but it is more damp for the money. best is also on floar when a plate is on floor or roof and both sidewalls. only when need more damping then do lonely walls and loose a little effective to money and more noticable room size because of the gap from foam to wall
@@user-lw9py Our experience with lower frequency absorption technologies does not support your conclusions. Using a subjective term such as "better" when you are describing the physics of absorption are not helpful. You are stating tactics without a frequency and amplitude strategy. Your room will be a room filled with tactics that do not address the real frequency and amplitude issues at each room boundary location. Why waste time with bandaids when complete solutions are available.
@@AcousticFields there is on internet Porous absorber calculator. when insert air gap 0 a example damp reach at 95 hz damping 0.2 . with air gap 100 mm at 52 hz damping 0.2 . in corners it is easy to reach such a gap when put plates before. i invest not much money but get with near all corner damping with gaps much more decay reduction as when i put the plates more in front. same as with water waves. when they are broken on 2 distant places help alot
@@user-lw9py Are you applying these frequencies and damping to the correct frequency/amplitude/location within the room?
Have you calculated the modes for a room? Do you not see them ever lining up in corners?
In most rooms I have calculated multiple modes wind up in the corners, and due to the pressure gradient principle the velocity is at or near zreo in the corner while the pressure is at maximum. Due to half space/quarter space principle. Bass is reinforced in corners and at junctions of wall/floor, wall/wall, ceiling/wall (it would be odd if it occurred at wall/floor).
When I've done the math on how modes work in corners, it gets ugly fast. It resonates in a non-linear way which is not the harmonic series. That is why you don't see square saxophones or French Horns. It's that awful sound of an empty room with no furniture.
I see here a lot of pointing out what you think are pitfalls in corner loading acoustic treatments. But I don't hear any solutions?
It is not the corners of the room that are producing the unwanted modal issues. It is the entire wall. To test this, treat the complete wall and you see you have no corner issues.
@@AcousticFields That's not an apples to apples comparison. The *correct* comparison is to apply the same amount of treatment in the corner, vs anywhere else on the wall.
You will find that, given a fixed about of treatment, the corner is the best place to put it.
@@74357175 If you treat the complete wall surface, you have no corner issues. The corners are the result of an untreated wall.
@@AcousticFields sure, if you apply ten times as much treatment, you'll get better results, NO MATTER where you put all the extra treatment
@@74357175 If you treat the wall, you have no corner issues.
I’ve done the rock wool in the corner and my mixes were still mud. I found this video by accident. Then I built diaphragmatic absorbers for 40hz and the difference is night and day. It makes me question how many other channels actually know what they’re talking about or if they’re just repeating what they’ve heard. I’ve watched half your videos and it’s surprising the amount of knowledge you give away for free. I saw people in forums say you sold snake oil and I know they’ve never even tried your products so it sounded foolish. I’m assuming they said that because they don’t have the money to treat their room correctly and it’s easier for them to put your products down. When I start bringing in enough money to invest some back into my studio I’ll be saving up to buy your products. Thank you for your hard work. I wish so many other people could find the wealth of REAL knowledge available on your channel.
Thank you for your comments. Forums are full of layers of ignorance built on half - truths, exaggeration, and hyperbole.It is the blind leading the blind. Most people who are giving advice on how to build a room, have never built one in their lives. We have built over 350. The reasons companies give for their designs, preys upon the ignorance of their customers regarding basic physics. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of physics can see through most claims. Unfortunately, our school systems do not educate people in the hard sciences. The world would be much better off if our school systems rewarded knowledge instead of feelings. Companies would not be able to get away with the claims they make which defy most current laws of physics. No one would purchase their lies.
I'm not sure I really follow your point. Of course, corner treatment by itself doesn't too much.. but if its big (where it starts to take up adjacent walls) it certainly makes a measurable impact in most rooms. After all a corner is really just two walls meeting (or three), and corner trapping therefore is able to hit a (small) portion of all surfaces. Certainly in small rooms you do not suggest that the corners remain empty? I think you could have presented this a bit better. The presentation and title almost are trending into clickbait. Put 3 foot diameter corner bass traps in small room floor to ceiling and tell me that is not going to decrease LF decay times or even out some peaks and nulls depending on flow resistivity of the material used. "You can't just treat corners" would be more accurate way of presentation, but treating corners is still an important part of overall room treatment.
We are all about resolution not bandaids. If you are happy with partial solutions then your goals have been achieved. We want the most resolution we can achieve in small rooms. Most "technologies" in the marketplace do not have the proper rates and levels of absorption to treat even the corner issues.
What's wrong with clickbait? This is TH-cam get a grip this guy definitely knows more than you
Most «commercial» corner «bass traps» should be called «medium traps» because that's mostly higher bass frequencies, mediums and highs that are absorb: unnatural sound and big room modes still unchanged. Typical porous material will be more effective around 1/4 wave length, so a typical 30 cm corner module : f = c/4d = (343 m/s)/(4*0,3 m)=285Hz and up; not very effective for the lowest room modes. These absorbents might even need some wood panels to preserve the highs.
@@Jorge-Fernandez-Lopez I'm building a 8 h x 9 w x 10 L studio. Concrete floor. Insulated drywall. Any tips?
@@rushmuzik Sorry rushmuzik, I'm just an enthusiast of music listening and I don't know anything about studios. In HiFi we just need to listen if there's any big problem or not, because our brain doesn't hear like a microphone (narrow cancellations in a graph might not be a problem). If there's a problem like big room modes, tones and a sound-meter might be enough for listeners in a small budget. Clients with more money should hire professionals, because a good room is the key of an audiophile system.
As you know, room geometry is very important for designing the room, although these measurements doesn't always correlate exactly with reality. Your room is small and don't have ideal proportions to even room modes. My first tip would be to ignore people like me, because I'm not professional. Accuracy for music production is important and you will need to test and understand your room, because flexibility of walls and doors might change the theoretical calculations. The second tip would be to find first (very important)the best place for your chair for bass evenness and soundstaging, because you might measure some peaks around 56 Hz and cancellations around 80 Hz. In a typical forward studio distribution (chair 1/3 from the front wall), small monitors would be extremely close (like computer speakers). I tried a more HiFi listening setup (nearfield listening) in REW, and I found that small-monitors located 1 m from front wall (1/3 length) and the chair 1 m from back wall (1/3 length) with two (or more) small sealed subs aligned behind each speakers with optimal delays could be a good compromise. You will need to use some absorption panels for mid and high frequencies (reverberation times and reflections) like those designed by Acoustics Fields. Even if bass room modes might be extremely difficult to solve in your room, cancellations can be reduced by adjusting the chair-speakers position and some bass treatment. More tips -remember that I have no idea and you shouldn't follow my advises- would be to mix for tonality and soundstaging only with the mini-monitors, adjust de bass frequencies with earphones, and finally have fun with equalization of the room modes (cut peaks and leave cancellations untouched) and the subs switched on. The last tip: keep money in your wallet until you know better your room, have more experience (how your music sounds in other systems and correlate with your room) or another bigger room.
I have corner bass traps that are floor to ceiling with diffusion on the front of each bass trap in 3 corners of my room. Sounds bitchin and looks epic. But I also see your point. Surface area covered has more of an impact that corner coverage. Now that I have rear wall quadratic diffusion, a properly installed cloud, 1st and second reflection points covered and all corners trapped, I'm going to move into trapped the ceiling corners adjacent to my mixing position, and bring in more diffusion and absorption in the back half of the room which is still lacking in coverage. Slowly slowly it is coming together but each element is making it sound better and better. I love this stuff so much!
Keep going with your efforts. It will be a great learning tool for you. Keep us posted. Send us a response curve as you move through the process so we can see your progress.
Just be careful to not KILL your room. This is another enormous mistake that many people make!
If a booming modal frequency is the primary issue of concern, then I'd agree that a corner midbass trap is not the solution. It's important to remember though that modal frequencies are not the only problems, and often not the most audible problems with rooms. Corner placed midbass/ lower midrange traps with treble scattering can very effectively improve the measured and perceived clarity at the listening position. It's not just modal frequencies that get stuck bouncing back and forth between parallel surfaces. All frequencies with short enough wavelength to form a traveling wave will also bounce back and forth repeatedly, eventually reaching the listener's ears with significant delay. If an early reflection causes an immediate wave cancel effect at the listening position, this can result in a non-modal frequency getting seriously time smeared, losing a lot of musical definition at the listening position as the initial attack is weak, while the delayed bouncing from the front of the room and back again hit the listener's ears louder than the initial direct sound from the speaker, after the note should have stopped, making it so that you can't hear when the notes start and stop. Corner placed traps unquestionably improve the situation in most rooms.
Our mission statement is all about room resolution. You can not achieve that degree of resolution with just corner treatments. If you treat the complete wall issues, the corner issues disappear. Always treat the source of the issue.
@@AcousticFields I agree that the very best thing to do is treat all the walls and ceiling and floor too l if it's a cost no object project. Build a room from scratch if you can. Still, I've been fascinated with my own cost limited projects at how I could effectively reduce an audible problem with a very limited but strategically placed treatment. People shouldn't despair and give up entirely if they aren't in a position to go all in on a full room treatment. There's worthwhile goodness to be had with much more modest projects, such as just focusing on the front corners of the room.
@@timlink7817 We have calculated the square footage requirements of our carbon and foam for all room sizes.
I never thought corner traps had to do with problems because those waves are created by wave reflections BETWEEN walls. Bass traps were for issues such as STANDING WAVES.
@@wty1313 Well, standing waves are indeed caused by wave reflections between walls. If you look at a typical sized home listening room there are actually complex standing waves that go well up into the midbass. We don't tend to think of them like we do the lower ones, where you get really large areas of super low level, and other large areas of peaks. Instead there are lots of peaks and dips closely spaced throughout the room. But, in every case, there is always a peak pressure for every one of those modes in all the tri-corners of the room. So if you put a bass/ midbass trap there you're going to be sure to get after all of them to some degree. In other parts of the room there are peaks as well, but they are in different locations for each frequency.
My studio is in a square bedroom. I created some homemade acoustic panels, along with buying some acoustic foam and bass trap cubes for the corners. Bass traps are only a small portion of the solution. You need to treat the entire room. All the guitars that hang on my wall also act as diffusers. I'm going to install cloud panels as well. I can already hear a difference and so can my wife. The room is way more silent than it used to be. In addition, most of the boominess of the bass has dissipated.
Guitars that hang on the walls do not act as diffusers. They redirect sound but it is un predictable. Diffusion requires a completely different technology with many room issues resolved prior to installation.
All the guitars on the wall create reverb ambience. They are all ringing from the speakers.
My experience: as you move towards the corner the bass is accentuated. If you do not have mics (tracking) or listeners (mixing room) near the corners, corner traps might not help you much. I was building mixing rooms for TV and film, usually just a mixer and one client. Traps did not usually matter, but when the client brought the production team in for review and the rear couch and chairs (nearer the corners) were filled and people were standing all around the room. The corner traps helped to level the bass across a larger area. It basically expanded the usable area for effective listening. This is why I never applied corner traps on the screen wall. No one stands back there. If you want to be able to use your entire space and not have the effect of bass concentration in the corners, corner traps can be quite effective. I am building a home studio room. I will be the only one in there, and will rarely be near a corner. I am not intending to install corner traps.
If the ultimate resolution is desired in your room, you must treat the sources of all issues. If you treat the walls which are the source of the corner issues, you treat the cause and not the symptom. This industry is full of band aids that the uniformed fall for.
Besides audio. You just resumed what people live every day with product marketing ( any product ) , the lost of common sense , the lack of education and/or interest to learn, etc. Thanks!
There are as many variables with humans as you can think of. Most of the ones you have mentioned are "noise" related when it comes to the science of physics. We try and take the complicated and make it simplier. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we do not.
The corner idea has valid logic behind it and I will just quote Floyd Toole a little here:
"at a reflecting boundary, pressure is at a maximum, and particle velocity is at a minimum"
A corner is two adjacent reflecting boundaries, so (sound) pressure is the greatest at these points.
The logical conclusion would be to place absorbers here, because it's the loudest, right? The issue is that stuff like rockwool absorbers are resistive absorbers, which counteract particle movement. But now we know that particle movement is at a minumum near the walls, which means the walls&particularly the corner is actually the worst place in the room to put a resistive absorber.
A resistive absorber is best put in a null, where subsequently particle movement is highest, which is at 1/4 of the wavelength away from the wall (of the frequency of interest; over 1m for bass frequencies). This is why the 'air gap' behind the absorber works, simply because it moves the absorber *away* from the point where it has the least impact.
Now, what do we do with the corners, where SPL is greatest? This is where tuned absorbers like membrane absorbers or helmholtz resonantors come in. These would need to be specifically built for the frequency your room is having issues with, which is why it is unappearling for the general consumer - it is not a quick and convenient 'universal' solution and also costs more than a wooden frame with some rockwool inside.
If you treat the wall surface area with a minimum 50% surface area treatment coverage with our technology, you have no corner issues. The greatest pressure is not in the corners at all frequencies and it also depends on the location of the sound source is regards to the room boundary surfaces.The greatest pressure is between two walls. This is an easy experiment to perform. Walk around your room with an SPL meter while you are generating a 40 hz. sine wave. Measure the pressure levels along the walls and corners. Repeat for 50, 60, 70 hz. and you will understand that the greatest pressures at all frequencies are not in the corners but between two surface areas. Building insulation will not provide the proper rates and levels of absorption for music and voice. Stay away from that material type if resolution is your goal.
Hi Dennis...is it not true that the pressure is highest in the corners? So pressure based absorbers should work there?
It is the whole wall that is producing the unwanted pressure issues. You are placing a bandaid on an arterial cut. Spend the money treating the complete problem.
Not true...the corners CAN and do have high pressure...just stand in the corner and hear how much louder the bass sounds....I am a expert in the field as well with dozens of patents and have been building speakers for 50 plus years...any simulation tool will show this
You are chasing your tail. Treat the whole wall and forget about the corners. Do you have data comparing treating the whole wall surface compared to treating just the corners. When you treat the whole wall, the corner pressure subsides and becomes a non issue.
Hmm...i didnt buy 'corner traps' but corner diffusers, werent expensive and made a huge difference in the low mids ie 120-250hz..rew corfirmed it. The clarity is now so much easier 'seeing' the low mids during mixdown
Also, when im using boundary mics in a corner, i pick up an extra 6db if placed in a corner and the crown mentioned additional gain used in 3 corners
@@AcousticFields the real point everybody wants to find out is where to put the bass absorption to be more effective, not that they are fools chasing their tails for trying to know that. Yes, treating the whole walls will be effective. Better yet, why don't they treat the whole floor and ceiling too? That would be even more effective, as it will cover 100% of the room. But for most people that's ridiculous. It seems that your aim is to maximize your sales, instead of delivering better acoustic advice.
My computer desk room is very small, and somewhat part of the living room. Without it, the reverberation is almost ear piercing. After installing it, its miles better than before, paired with felt wall panels, you can definitely see and feel a difference. I think its about the size of the room youre in. In my case, the walls were very close together, making echos more prominent. Not to mention that the back wall was thin. But if its a large room, not much difference will be made or noticable.
Echos are a repeating signal. Your issue is called reverberation. Reverb is a measure of sound decay.
I do think you are totally right that overall a much better approach is to build your own panels to treat all the walls AND ceiling. Build your own diffusors. And cloud. A DiY approach, where the cost is the materials, and the goal is maximum treatment is much better than _buying_ some premade 'corner traps'. The only advantage I see of favouring corners, if you really are going to only treat 10% of a room, is that often times corners can be wasted space in a studio. Which I guess is one of the reasons the area behind the monitors often gets treated expensively, and also sometimes the back wall behind the listening position (also for reflections too). I wouldn't want to put a guitar cab, bass cab, speakers, mic area or listening position right in a corner. So it's not the worst place in a room to lose room to treatment. Also, maybe, just maybe, it can also be easier to naturally have an air gap, behind say an 8" panel, if it's placed across a corner, the prism shaped air gap would be somewhat marginally beneficial to absorption? But you are the expert, so I wonder if that is true, or not?
Air gaps are of minimal benefit. Our goal is resolution and most people are about putting band aids on issues that do not contribute to resolution. Resolution is a step by step process that starts with lower frequency management first and foremost.
I think a big missing point from a lot of people is that corners are ultra reinforced. windows and the center of flat walls can breathe a bit, but brick/concrete/corners are so reinforced that less energy can escape, especially because the waves angle of incidence is glancing
Walls do not "breathe". Noise transmission is all about managing vibrational transfer. The unwanted corners pressures are a symptom of the wall dimension. Treat the wall, no corner issue.
This made total sense, I've been wondering about trying bass traps, not because I have bass issues but precisely to just experiment if they do anything at all. My room is not symmetrical, wooden walls, not a parallel ceiling either. If anything I wanted to try them to see if I got more bass in some way. In any case, of all the videos I've seen none have said this, and this is of total logic, what happens on the walls ends up on the corners, so fix the walls and you fixed your corners nd not the other way around. It does make a lot of sense to me.
It is best to develop a strategy for your room. Using tactics without knowing why or how is a recipe for failure and a drained bank account. Lets take a look at your whole room and start with the largest and most audible distortions first. To start the process, fill out the information in this link. www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
Follow the software and schedule a time slot to speak with Dennis regarding your room issues.
Well considering you have way more wall space than corner space, it makes sense that treating the entire wall will make a bigger difference. That's a lot of absorption. But what if you have a limited budget? Like only a few 4'x2'x4" absorbers or whatever. Do you put them in the corners, or somewhere along the wall? I'm under the impression that placing your bass traps in the corners is a way to maximize the effectiveness of what you have when you don't have much to work with.
We are not about partial fixes. We are all about achieving the ultimate resolution possible. There are numerous other companies that sell bandaids made from building insulation. We want no part of that approach.
@@AcousticFields Wow. I wouldn't have expected you to just outright say it. Interesting approach. Very Gibson. Looks like the acoustic treatment field has its share of snobbish gatekeeping as well. Well y'all have fun.
@@AcousticFields OK, fair. What about the general approach of using broadband porous absorbers with appropriate thickness and air gaps to reach into the bass ranges. Are you categorically opposed to the use of porous absorption for this purpose?
@@Sunporchmedia That material type lacks the rate of absorption required for small room, low frequency, amplitudes. You cant build enough of that material type to get low enough and get enough to get proper amount for balance room decay rates.
@@AcousticFields Thanks!
Given that the corners are the common nodes for the room's modes in all three directions, is it accurate to say they yield the most absorption for the least amount of area?
Room modes are distributed throughout the room and low frequency energy oscillates in cycles throughout the room volume. The oscillations can occur at 3-4' intervals depending on frequency of issue. An axial mode is produced by unwanted pressure between two parallel walls, not two parallel corners. The industry has perverted the modal definition is order to sell corner units to the uniformed public.
@@AcousticFields On the whole I agree with you: To treat the bass modes in a room, you have to treat the entirety of the parallel walls. I can only imagine the marketing nonsense implying that bass collects itself in corners.
If I understand it correctly, corner traps are like cornerstones. You can't just grab four of them and have an effective wall. But comparing them to the rest of the stones, they are somewhat more important. The corner location is marginally more effective because it exists at three modal peaks: one each in the length, width, and height dimensions. Perhaps the result is that you get the effect of 5% coverage for 2-3% of material. Or more accurately, the corner locations are capable of damping more energy compared to other locations with 1 or 2. You still need to treat the other locations, the same way you need other stones to build a wall.
@@BrazenRain For low frequency management, most of our projects dictate a 50 - 65% surface area coverage on all four walls and either the floor or ceiling.
Thanks - this video saved me from wasting money on overpriced corner traps - I'll just go with regular panels and make them as deep as I can. Corner traps are not designed to give an air gap which significantly reduces their performance. What % of the room surface area would make a significant impact? What depth of panels do you recommend - even with 20cm deep and 20cm air gap panels seem to struggle to significantly affect under 100hz and certainly under 60hz. I don't even really want to give up 40cm on most of the walls in my room. Most studio rooms I see on youtube seem to have about 10-15 120x60cm panels. What absorbition coefficient do you need to make a significant impact? Is 0.4? 0.6? 0.8? Generally under 100hz seems to taper from 0.8 down to 0.2 (or 0.4 if your using 30cm deep with 30cm airgap.
Air gaps are window dressing with little value for low frequency pressure waves. Use diaphragmatic absorption since it represents the most powerful per square foot of all absorption technologies. You will need to give up 12" of wall space to reach down to 30 Hz.
It’s way more cost effective to treat the corners first. If some problems still remain after that, continue with the walls. No point in debating what order the problems were caused. In that case you should start with treating the speakers. They are the root of the problem. If that doesn’t help remove the amp.
Treating a symptom without treating the source of the problem will not assist you with achieving higher resolution. Always treat the cause of the corner issue which is the wall itself.
Sadly, we're in the era of communication but we're still uninform! Thanks for this very informative video.
We are in an era of communication. However, the information that is communicated is mostly sales speak which is designed to sell rather than solve issues.
Thanks I'm over here looking at a floor plan and my common sense was like I'm not standing in the corner, so it may be best for the bass to stay their lol.my listening zone is fine slowly covering walls with recyclable materials appreciate the secondary weight. Quoted 4 k for clouns alone
Our mission is resolution. In order to achieve high resolution of issues, you must first focus directly on the cause of the distortion not the symptom.
Thanks. I enjoy watching your videos. Humor a laymans' thinking and questions, please.
My understanding is that room corners form a "horn" that amplifies the sound reflecting from it, but not evenly across the range of frequencies. This seems to result in a "boom" or "blatt" of distorted tone emanating from the corner.
Is that actually the sound from the whole surface of the interacting walls? Is the corner a focal point with more amplitude? I imagine that each corner is producing its own particular sound.
I'm thinking that people put what they hope in absorptive treatment into the corners to reduce what they think is a "hotspot."
Is that useful, though inadequate to addressing the room acoustics?
The highest strength or amplitude of a lower frequency will be found along the wall surface areas.
This is quality. A smart, honest person. I love it.
Thank you. The facts are always friendly.
Would building a 5 sided room help with room modes? I have a 15'x15' room and am thinking about building a pentagon inside that is slightely longer than it is wide, with the gaps between the 4 and 5 sided walls filled with rock wool or R19 in the air gap.
Stay with rectangular rooms. Their issues are predictable and consistent and thus treatment can work well with the issues.
bless you! I just discovered this channel and I can sense you are doing a great service to all of us uninformed. Thank you.
I appreciate that
If I’ve treated the walls thuroughly with broadband absorption, what is a good solution for absorbing any remaining excess base frequencies? Membrane traps perhaps?
Membrane are the cousins to diaphragmatics. They perform the same with membrane having lower rates of absorption through their design parameters. To target a certian frequency or octave band, you would use Helmholtz.
Okay I get what you're saying BUT it is quite apparent that bass builds up more in the corners. just stand in a room with music playing and walk to the corners, and its very obvious. Bass builds near walls from the pressure as you have taught us and a corner is a double wall. or potentially even a triple wall. so for bass management would that mean that corners are the most effective place to treat/absorb this?
You are confusing technologies. Double and triple wall structures are for noise transmission not for low frequency absorption.
Sorry, but that AF reply is like a chicken talking to a duck. 😊cheers.
@@djbremsespor Your comments are more insect based. Just another tick on the balls of acoustic society.
@@AcousticFields your answer to Nick's question is nonsense. He was talking about the additional pressure gain achieved when two or three orthogonal boundaries (walls) are joined, and you respond something about noise transmission? Really, what does noise transmission have anything to do with acoustic boundaries? It's you who is confusing things, professor.
I think he was meaning that it’s meant for amplification of sound transmission for its performance purpose. I don’t think what he said was irrelevant, though I can see how it can be easily misinterpreted. If you think about the definition of a room mode, and the two parallel surfaces, if you treat the corner, then theoretically you would be treating up to one side of the parallel surface modes (room modes) except for up to three different angles. So technically it would give you coverage over different areas but in no way is it doing magic in its efficiency. Covering the big elephant in the room is more effective, which is the largest wall with the largest parallel surface. Im not sure if the ceiling would excluded but I think it would be because we have carpet and furniture and things in our rooms so it helps to mitigate it from being a primary concern given this criteria.
Excellent, more important factual, information.
Thank you.
Very good points! I don't actually know what issues I'm going to have yet because I haven't finished building the system. The room is 28' deep screen wall to back wall with an entry way on each side at the back. So screen wall to each entry door is about 31'-6"... I think, might actually be 32' and the room is 21' wide and 11' ceiling.
The control room for the projector and front end equipment is behind the back row of seating. I have a large cutout on one side originally intended to face front end equipment into the theater but I decided to take that out. Next I decided maybe not take it out but instead put 6" of acoustic material like Rockwool in the opening and trim it out on both sides with decorative grill cloth etc. Then duplicate it on the other side. It's maybe 21" x 42" or so, just estimating. The two openings would be about 12 sqft. It would end up being 13 ~ 14% of that wall area of basically resistive/reactive opening to another space. Maybe it's not worth it, maybe I go back to the plan of covering over the original opening. Or, there is room there, I could make additional openings, maybe get the area up to 25 ~ 30%. Then of course there are also the entry ways so even with the original opening closed, well over 30% of the back is 31 ~ 32' deep so with the two opening idea, about 50% is 28' from the screen wall and 50% 31 ~ 32'. Maybe it works!
Because it's mostly surrounded by attic space, I can put as many independently DSP controlled woofers as I want in the attic firing into the room anywhere along the sidewalls. I've got around twenty 15" drivers already on hand and plenty of DSP modules, and amplifiers so that might be the best approach. I'll know more once I get the basic system finished and see what bass issues I have.
I see many issues I do not like with your drescribed project. Fill out the info in this link. You can include up to 6 pics / form. Fill out seperate form for each room size/volume/usage. Lets then discuss by phone.
www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
I have seen your comments about absorption being different, and videos about effectiveness of absorption from towels and moving blankets. Would a folded moving blankets hung over a corner floor to ceiling count as a bass trap?
A limp mass material type will not create enough rate of absorption within a small amount of space.
So is bass traps only good to reduce sound transmission?
You are confusing sound absorption with noise transmission. They are completely different technologies.
I got a 8H 12W 14L room, i set my setup pretty standard like middle of the of width, listening position is a third of the length, equilateral to the 2 monitors.
My problem is i cant hear bass within the half of the room close to the monitors. Why does it happen? Is there a fix?
You must pressure balance the room so you are not missing any frequencies. Your room dimensions are producing unwanted pressure pockets that will not allow you to hear certain sounds. Fill out the info in this link. Lets take a look at your specific issues.
www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
The perception of Bass improved for small 13 × 11.5ft living room with the purchase of a second subwoofer, but that was more for seat to seat perception. What really made the biggest difference was getting the couch off the back wall by a couple of feet. The placement of the MLP is just as important as the placement of the stereo speakers.
what about the acustics pressure of low frequencies that is condensed in the corners - vertically?
The whole wall is producing the corner pressure. If you treat the completev wall, the corner issue disappears.
I'm glad I found you before I spent money on my bass traps. I am using absorption in the back of the room and behind guitar amp, and diffusion panels on the first reflection points and the ceiling. Recording a guitar amp with one mic directly in front and one in the room. On a budget, going to have to do best with what I got.
Room resolution is a step by step process. Start with low frequency issues first.
@@AcousticFields Thanks for replying. I feel a little bit better about this, my heads exploded in recent days with research. Going to begin with placing corner pieces floor to ceiling behind the amp, and ceiling to wall down the long sides of the room. With some recordings to hear changes, if Im happy with the difference I'll move on to paneling.
Thinking about a TH-cam video of the transformation
do folk conclude that standing waves that may arise in alcoves & corners can be suppressed or eliminated by bass traps or corner-located subs?
Alcoves and corners have dimensions. The dimensions, just like a room, determine what the frequency of resonance will be. Amplitude or strength of that resonance will be dtermined by the SPL used within the room.
What so you recommend one is to do when facing a family room in a single family residence that features an “alcove” meant for the tv or whatever? Is it optimal to put bass trap in the walls recess/indent of about 2ft x 7 ft (alcove)?
What about GIK acoustics? They are known as a professional company and sell bass traps
They make cardboard boxes filled with building insulation.
Dennis tells it like it is. Lay people must decide if they want a “good looking” or “good sounding” room. Achieving both is difficult, expensive, and nearly impossible (all things being equal.) I have mostly opted for good looking rooms. They are cheaper, easier to build, and most listeners cannot tell the difference. The result is a room that people like the look of however sounds minimally improved.
Our mission statement is room resolution. We are more concerned with sound quality. Our clients can tell the difference.
Sure, you can treat the whole wall but the corners are where lower frequencies end up... and so it only makes sense to have something MUCH thicker in the corners.
The corners are not where the lower frequencies build up. The walls are the source of all issues. You are using a tactic without a strategy. The thickness of a material type does not indicate its overall performance.
I’m a music professor, not a physicist…but have scientists/engineers in my family. I understand what your saying, but pardon me for saying that this is a bit condescending.
Yes I’m not a physicist, but even “layman” research, trial and error and trusting your ears can go a long way.
Every room encounters unique challenges, something you yourself have expressed. Size, dimensions, construction materials, shared use of a space, etc. I’m finding serious improvements from treating the corners of my small 2.1 listening room. I’d considered before placing bass treatment behind speakers, but only have 19 inches to the front wall to play with since the room is not entirely my own for use. This also inhibits putting very much behind and adjacent to the listening position.
Considering the benefits I’ve encountered and my limited placement choices, corner traps may be the best option. Should I instead place enormous traps in the soffits? I’d have to see if that would be acceptable for everyone using the space.
You should look at the room as a whole and quantify and qualify your issues. You then take the largest distortions and treat those first working your way through the pressure to reflection paradigm.
@@AcousticFields I agree, find the worst offender(s) & deal with those first. As someone online said - it's about changing the ratio of direct projected sound to reflected sound. Any improvement in that ratio will yield sonic benefits. Why not try the inexpensive fixes first ? ie treating the corners
When you treat the corners, you will quickly realize that the corners were a waste of time. The wall effects will jump out and be more pronounced. Spend your energy and dollars treating the whole wall.
This is true corners are a small percentage of the room and have to be treated, but the corners concentrate a lot of bass and have to be treated as well
If you treat the walls, the corner issues go away.
@@AcousticFields great point
Treat the walls with what exactly? Example a concrete wall....@@AcousticFields
Do you have any data on % treatment coverage vs % perceived improvement? I'm assuming it would follow close to the 80/20 rule where 20% (proper) treatment will get you about 80% of the way... thoughts?
You must treat at least 50% of each offending surface area.
Thank you for telling it how it is straight up. Thank you for all that you do for the audio community. Cheers Dennis
In the case of porous absorbers - does the air gap created by corner placement provide any benefit?
It increases absorption of frequencies under 1Khz, yet not by much. Just make sure the air gap is the same as the absorber thickness, not more, for maximum efficiency.
It is minimal and not worth considering for corner issues. More marketing nonsense..
You are completely right!
Treating the corner when the whole wall is the issue is like holding up a feather to stop a tornado when it comes to pressure management.
Im glad youre busting the myths on this one
Think two walls, four walls, six "walls".
So just treat the flat wall?
Since the walls are producing the problem, you need to treat the source of the problem.
This was very informative and helpful. Thank you!
You are welcome
Hi Dennis, I love your videos because its the truth alot of people dont understand why they should buy a helmholt resonator and diaphragmatic bass management panels so they buy cheap rubbish and think their room sounds better but really it just sounds more dead and isnt doing the job its meant to. Also room modes they dont understand if you treat your axiel modes properly you have a postive impact on fixing those problems.
people rather try make their studio look cool but not actually test their room to understand the issues.
a proper control room should cost alot of money depending on your size room that price tag varies. Big rooms = less lower end treatment maybe so required.
Small rooms very difficult price wise to get down to the low end, but to understand the physics you need to spend the money.
Physics doesnt lie.
I have done acoustic testing on so many peoples rooms and I tell them we need your diaphragmatic panels for the low end, then they freak out at the price tag. so then I tell them I cant help you sorry without spending money you wont be able to solve the issues you need to.
I like to start with the axiel modes first.
I can feel your frustration because people just dont get it.
I know people with $200k+ worth of expensive gear and have no acoustics, this has me very worried people dont believe me because they think expensive gear is good. well it is good but room is telling you its not.
Everyone please get your room sorted before buying anything dont try look flash honestly your wasting your money.
The main issue is a false belief system based upon a lack of understanding of the laws of physics. Companies perpetuate false claims because people have no understanding of why the claim is false. One of the most recent ones I have seen involves "soundproof paint". Yes, paint is marketed as a barrier technology. People call me and ask me how to use it correctly. They ask if more layers will produce better noise attenuation.
Excellent explanation, thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
important topic and its so sad that corner bass traps are all over the webshops and it is misleading.
for me to get a result from corner absorption i stacked 4 panels diagonal across my corner, it reaches 30% into the sidewalls and its floor to ceiling, panels are 8" thick, 48" wide in total.
Wrong treatment type and not enough surface area coverage
Funny, my ASC Tube Traps in the corners of my room has made a staggering difference in my room.
If you think the corner treatment made an improvement, you should listen to the results of treating the cause of the problem which is the whole wall. The defintion pf an axial mode is the unwanted pressure between two parallel walls not two corners. Corner treatment is a bandaid when it comes to achieving the highest resolution possible which is our stated mission.
I have bass traps in the corners and my room is still meh. I contact them... and they say "you only have 3" traps in the corners, you need our new 17" soffit bass trap from floor to ceiling in the corner". That would cost like $500 per corner. What?!?
Treating low frequency issues takes a lot of surface area coverage. Its physics.
If it’s only parallel surfaces, then why does corner loading a subwoofer create more bass in the opposite diagonal corner? And given that this is true, I would assume absorbing some frequencies in a corner, would reduce the reflections of those frequencies? And what’s wrong with helping a little, when you do a multitude of things that do a little you end up with a lot, and once again, you offered no solution.
Its not more "bass". It is + 3dB - + 6dB of room gain. Room gain is distortion. Quantity is never quality.
@@AcousticFields yes which is why we try to place our subs at quarter or half wavelengths in the room. But what is your solution to absorbing low frequency sound waves, where they accumulate in the corners, and reflect in all directions? We’re all just trying to do what we can with what budget we have.
@@mwrightinsurance You can't position yourself away from room modes that are oscillating every 3-4' in the room. If you miss one, you will fall into another. We have many pressure absorbing technologies. You can find them at this link
www.acousticfields.com/shopping/
Truth, Dennis, truth! Thanks as always.
Thanks for listening
this is wat i needed ty
The definition of a room mode is unwanted pressure between two parallel walls not two parallel corners. This is an example of another bandaid that won't stay on.
So, buying ''bass trap'' alone is crap but adding it with side and cloud panels could be useful?
All lower frequency pressure issues and middle and high frequency reflec tions must be managed with different technologies. There is no one size fits all.
Thank you. What about tubetraps? Always been told that they should be placed in the corner.
You are missing the point. Its the wholw wall producing the problem.
@@AcousticFields Yes I understand. But the tubetrap has its limited surface and if you put it in a corner, it has two walls that are building up pressure instead of one. The pressure should be higher in the corner, I think.
Not correct. The pressure produced by the toral wall surface area with its dimensions, is much larger than the corners. Treat the larger issues first. Once you treat the wall, you can forget about the corners.
@@AcousticFields Thank you for taking time to answer.
Thanks for your videos. I’m trying to treat a large studio that has a lot of potential and I’m fighting to get more coverage and to do it right but I’m dealing with, so in so said. You remind me of my Acoustically engineering professor I had 30 years ago.
We can assist you with this process. Fill out the inforamtion in this link:
www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
I have a suggestion for a measurement video that you can make.
1. Measure the untreated room for reference.
2. Measure the effect of low frequency absorbers in the corners vs. other locations. Where do they perform the best?
3. Measure the fully treated room. To get an idea of the overall improvements.
4. Present the details, like room size, number + type of absorbers used, the freq response + waterfall measurements and the conclusion.
Basically, it is a video where you demo the absorbers and the science behind treating room modes.
I think it would be interesting for many people to see the measurements.
Thanks.🙂
This described measurement process would be a waste of time, money, and energy. The corners are not the issue. Look to the definition of modes for your answers.
@@TheJohnsofDoes Hmm yeeeh, that seems to be the case. What a shame.
@@AcousticFields If you take out step 2 then you have the process that you should be doing already (right?). Put step 2 back in and you have a great opportunity to bust the corner myth.
Taking a few extra measurements cant be that big of a deal.
@@djbremsespor whats with super extreme dorks that cant just freaking listen to music out of some decent 4k of home 2 channel audio and have some average sound treatment for a few hundred dollars only. Mind blowing anyone making say under 200k a year whom would say spend 100k on sound absorbing or dampening bs. 98% of people make sub 200k . My uncle whom is worth 50million and likes good audio dont even have any sound absorbing etc in his mansion and the audio sounded fine . most people can give 2f's less if they some how dont hear a certain hz of sound due to improper treatment. Im finally buying some decent speakers and a decent hifi dac to stream from Tidal and i can garanteeeeeee ill be blown away in comparison to my logitech z5500 system that has 4in sattelite speakers as mid high and buzz on many frequencies .
A definition, probably incomplete in order to prove what you want, is not science. A test is science. You are currently wasting time, money and energy doing things according to something that it's not proven. And trying to make other people do the same...
They’re expecting and using it for the wrong purpose- it’s very helpful as part of a rt-60 issue.
Their purpose is correct. However, they are not seeing the cause of their purpose.
Once again, thank you for sharing your knowledge sir. I can’t begin to tell you my level of appreciation for what you give away to us for free.
You are very welcome
All your videos are great to raise more questions and to show how much people don't know. It is a nice marketing system, but it is not useful for people who want to understand more and/or manufacture their own panels. Also, I know your acoustics products are great, but most are beyond theater owners pockets.
Our data does not support your opinions.
Total surface area is not the only consideration. Anyone with measuring tools can debunk this video easily. Corner traps are not just marketing. This is the second video on this channel I've seen that are plainly false.
What are the other considerations you are referring to. Please be specific.
@@AcousticFields The fact that the corner is the best place to observe the 1/4 wavelength rule without taking up a bunch of room space. This topic is way more complex than you're making it seem. You would be correct in saying that it's nonsense that "bass builds up in the corners". I think that's the root of the rumor you're trying to dispel, and you're right about that, but it's way more complicated than "less surface area means they're useless". This video doesn't take in account air pressure and velocity of the waves. To put it simply, putting a corner trap in the corner of your room allows you to hit the 1/4 wavelength points of frequency lower than if you placed them against a flat wall, while saving space.
thank you so much! So much misinformation given by companies. I am glad I never fell for it. Prices on bass traps etc at these companies is absolutely ridiculous. Glad I found you. As horrible as your truths are, I appreciate the straight forward brute honesty. I'm so sick of studio designers who think they know the whole science and then make us pay big bucks to have a studio that does not function the way it should and cost 10 times as much.
I had a bunch of "know it alls" tell me to buy Owens corning 703/705 to make traps etc. Only to find out that the recipies have changed over the last decade and the 703/705 stuff is useless. I have a garage full of this stuff.
Treating the corners when the whole wall is producing the issue is like holding up a feather to stop a tornado.
Thank you; for this informative video. It was much needed and much appreciated.
Glad it was helpful!
what material to use for my floor to have better bass, carpet or wood
Neither has an impact on lower frequencies. Choose a floor covering that works for the usage of the room along with the associated maintenance
Hello Dennis... Thanks for the tons of valuable inputs. Very informative video. Sharing this across all my groups. Just one more tough question I have had to face : Active Bass Traps [With the Woofer and Mic] Please do make a video on the same. A comparison with passive bass traps vs Active bass traps.
Successful active trapping has limited frequency ranges. We prefer broadband that covers wider ranges in frequencies.
@@AcousticFields Got it
Thanks Very Clear 👌
Glad to hear that
The "Reality-Check" - man on acoustics.....Very good!
Treating the corners of rooms is like holding up a feather to stop a tornado. Treating maybe 10% (corners) of the offending surface areas (walls) is not enough surface area coverage to have a positive impact on unwanted modal pressure issues.
lol I have an attic room with a desk height wall that turn into a ceiling just above ear height.. a full opposing wall closet and a large mattress. oddly enough I don't have two parallel walls unobstructed. dead. wall loaded tiny satellites and a desktop loaded subwoofer. it's just enough to give energy in the right spot and shares the same grill that allows my computer to cool.
pretty sure my room measurements would be terrible. i just get over it
Lets take a look. Fill out the information in this link www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
Lets take a look. Fill out the information in this link
www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
@@AcousticFields doesn't allow for a splayed ceiling
@@the_nondrive_side A splayed ceiling is a reflection management technique. Corner treatment is pressure management
@AcousticFields it's a massive impact on my room as the wall loading is right at that boundary. I intentionally sit within the interference area.
In my case, the change was radical... I went from 1.2 sec rt60 to 0.7 sec.
Now, start over and treat the complete surface area.
I almost bought some. But didn’t because I saw a frequency response chart showing the bass trap only affecting frequencies at incredibly low levels. Like 300hz. For my talking voice that’s basically a non issue plus the walls and ceiling aren’t treated yet so why bother with some foam triangles😅
Foam is not a "bass trap". The corners are not enough treatment space when the whole wall is producing the unwanted pressure issue. Corner treatment is a marketing scam. Thank you for sharing a real world example. We need more of these testimonials like this to bury this false belief system.
Thanks
Welcome
Excellent
Thank you for your support.
damn i could just listen to you explain really anything
Thank you. We try and make the complicated easier to understand along with pushing through the outright falsehoods created by the industry to sell their boxes.
Im not agree, i just place small foam bass trap for corners and the change its amazing!
If you think that is amazing, try treating the complete problem. Your missing everything and selling yourself short in performance using a bandaid.
this gent is speaking sense
If you treat the complete wall, you have no corner issues.
"What % is the corner to the wall?" ...does this Q make even sense? How you measure this?
It is the whole wall producing the modal issues. Placing treatment in the corners is a bandaid. It is mostly a marketing gimmick to sell product. If you treat the complete wall surface area, you have no corner issues.
I am sorry, but which company says: "Just buy this bass trap and only put it in the corner. This alone will solve all your issues"?
Come on, that is just silly hearsay. Obviously companies want to (and should) sell more absorbers for the whole room.
I think the reason why many customers get disappointed is due to the price. In general, treating a room gets expensive really quick.
"Add to Cart", click, click, click, aaaand it's gone. And what you got was barely enough to do any good, no matter how great the technology is or where you place it.
What companies should do and what they do are completely different. Why do we receive 10 - 15 calls per week from people who are not satisfied. What is driving this dissatisfaction?
@@AcousticFields Probably because some unprivileged bedroom producers are not ready to accept that it actually requires spending > 10k to get a satisfactory result in their sad little room.
If they can afford only 1 or 2 of your absorbers they would not be satisfied either.
The entry price level for a real solution that does not suck is too high for most.
@@djbremsespor hahaha. 10k? A measuring mic and some free education, using ones ears and not giving up until it sounds good is what it takes. Its not a problem going from raw walls to acceptable results. Its the remaining few percents until a perfect pro studio that is hard and expensive. And finding a good room in the first place. Most dont look for an appartment with a studio room in mind.
Hi @@theswedishmusicstudio The 10k reference was based on AF's products which I do expect to be satisfactory for pro studios and obviously amateurs want that kind of result as well.
Sure, it is possible to get "acceptable result" (whatever that means to you) by DIY.
But I dont think the reason for "10 - 15 calls per week from people who are not satisfied" is due to DIY folks whining about the "remaining few percents".
Cheers.
The first thing I've heard on this topic that makes any sense. Thank you!
This is another example where the industry has perverted the definition in our science to sell products.
I'm the past, Leather sofas were seen as great bass trap. Why is isn't leather curved surface effective in a small room for diffusing low end without making the room too dull? Semi porous leather seems to suit the purpose well. Is like a acoustic panel with wood panels in it.
Not in our past. Furnture is not an acoustical tool. The rates and levels of absorption are unpredictable. Without performance predicatabilility and consistency in any applied acoustical tool you are jsut spinning your wheels.
Bass is strongest in corners, so treating the corners does indeed work.
This is not a true statement. Take an SPL meter and measure different places in the room. You will see that the greatest pressues lie between the walls as is specified in the definition of modes.
@@AcousticFields according to AI my statement is true.
"...Low-frequency waves are omnidirectional and can fill a room, reflecting off walls, ceilings, and floors. When these waves reach corners, they tend to get trapped and build up because corners act as a natural amplifier for bass frequencies. This effect is known as "room modes" or "standing waves."
@@svtcontour I think I already know what @AcousticFields is going to say.
No one doubts that bass traps can work in the corners. However, the point here is to combat the problem with low frequencies where it arises. Not just when the disturbing sound waves have accumulated in the corners. To put it in layman's terms.
It's a bit like drinking alcohol. Drinking a little bit throughout the evening is fun. The same amount of alcohol in 10 minutes is not fun. Haha, I know, not funny.
@@svtcontour All that is true. However, it does mention amplitude. When working in small rooms, you work from the areas of higher amplitude first and then your goal is to achieve a pressure balance throughout the room volume. The highest amplitudes of energy are not found in the corners. Their amplitudes are above baseline but nothing in comparison to room boundary surface to room boundary surface.
@@AcousticFieldscorner traps work best on velocity, not pressure. If you're trying to solve a pressure issue you need both mass and surface area in the treatment solution.
Let me say again, I was so fortunate to find Dennis Foley and AF. When I moved to my current abode, I realized I needed treat my living/listening room. Saw all the b.s. products on YT etc. then discovered AF. Here was someone describing what I heard and why. Saved me so much time, money and frustration. Thanks Dennis.
You are welcome.
Well done.
Thanks.
It's an interesting point you're making for sure but you spent 7 minutes making the same point over and over instead of using any of that time providing solutions.
I am trying to change a belief system founded in half truths. The way to accomplish this belief change is to establish a new belief and then support that new belief system through message repetition. You have two main acoustical issues in small rooms. You have lower frequency pressure and reflections. Every wall is contributing to both of these issues. You must treat on average 50 - 65% surface area coverage for both reflection and pressure issues. Treatment types will vary but not the 50 - 65% coverage requirement.
I beg to differ. I do not have a physics background, i am simply a music lover who is also into the gear. For 50 years. I decided to experiment, so I bought a pack of 12 "mini bass traps" (about 10" long) designed to be used in the corners. Eezy peezy install with 2 sided tape. All I can say is "WOW" . Best improvement is in coherency of the soundstage. Improved vocals, improved bass. I simply couldn't believe the improvement. Like buying a new component, but kinda better. Go ahead, spend the $40.
If you think treating the corners made you say wow. Take that thinking a bit farther and treat two opposing walls. You will quickly realize that the corners offer little in comparison.
No limp mass material type that is 10" long can do anything for frequencies below 100 Hz.
@@AcousticFields i would say below 340Hz.
in my room, in Kyiv, Ukraine, i use big (23.6" diameter) DIY tube bass traps in two corners behind the speakers from floor to roof and two small tubes (D 15,7", H 40") side of the speakers. I hear and see changes on waterfall.
@@andallxr You are not using enough surface area coverage with the proper rates and levels of absorption. The depth of an absorber determines how low it will go down to or its resonant frequency. The rate is how much energy it absorbs at each octave band above the resonant frequency..
@@AcousticFields probably yes
but it's a cheap way to improve room acoustics and it works with my room's main resonances at 70hz too
of course there are other ways with other possibilities and with better results
I chose this way and did it myself and I am happy to hear and see it gives me results, not big but still results 🤷♂🤷♂
Dennis it might just be better if you came to my house and fix my room.
We can get the treatment requirements without all of that travel chaos. Our data base has over 250 built and measured rooms in it. The data base will get you to an 80% resolution by specifying the treatment surface area requirements. We do it all the time. We can then voice the room through certain tests to squessze out an additional 10%. Fill out the info in this link:
www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
OK, after reading through this comment section, I have come to the conclusion that the subwoofer is the issue.
Its not the source of energy that is the issue. It is people's lack of understanding on how to manage that energy within a room.
@@AcousticFields that was a joke.
Looking at a definition and negating perception is not my kind of thing. If you put yourself in front of the center of a wall while music is playing (or your voice), and then you go to a corner, you'll notice more bass in a corner. You can measure that to be more scientific, but you don't really need it because it's obvious. It's not the only thing you need to do, but it's an important part. You want to go for a different route? Ok, but you don't need to be pretentious and discredit others to go for your own path. You can create your business just offering your products and not doing what you're saying they do, contributing with more nonsense with basic and malicious marketing language.
Your observations regarding the accumulation of low frequency energies within a room are not empirically correct and your cited example shows nothing that would lend itself to understanding the physics behind room modal pressures. We are about the ultimate in room resolution addressing all variables. We state this in our Mission Statement on the home page. We seek and develop new technologies to manage all frequency issues within a room based upon our proprietary carbon and foam technologies. Your comments on our marketing approach shows another lack of understanding. Another lack of resolution.
Cool
The facts are always friendly.
Ill buy the warehouse product for a small discount
Then you will be placing a bandaid on the wall.
Who is saying to only cover 5-10% of their walls?
If you treat just the corners, that is what you are doing. The corners represent 10% of wall surface area. Axial modes are produced by the unwanted pressure between two parallel walls, not two parallel corners,
@@AcousticFields Got it, but same question, who is saying to only treat corners?
I think it’s what people do when on an extremely tight budget with desire for better frequency response. But if you do the corners first n only, disappointing results will be the end result due to it ampllifying the imbalances of the room even more so than without the corner traps.
I don’t know a single person who opted to put up a bunch of bass traps as a cheap first move into the foray of acoustics.
This guy knows his stuff and explains it perfectly and understandable.
You must fight the pressure battle at the source of the problem. The corners are not the problem. When you treat the complete wall, the corner issues go away. That should tell you everything you need to know. Treating the corners is a bandaid that modal pressure laughs at.
@@AcousticFields that makes sense
Wow! I must be a genius because I'm getting great results with my diy traps.
It is the whole wall that is producing the modal issue by definition. Unwanted lower frequency pressure occurs between two walls not two corners. If you think corner treatment is good, wait until you treat the whole wall.
@@AcousticFields then give all of us your debit card
Bass traps work because they eliminate *bass* echoes which tend accumulate in corners. Low frequencies have too large wavelength they don't form standing waves between parallel surfaces. Acoustic wall paneling eliminates mid-high frequencies. They are complementary. Funny that you won't explain any of this, only claim it's marketing, then marketing your own products in the end.
More nonsense. "bass" does not echo and standing waves are the result of excess energy and long wavelengths that dont fit between walls whether they are parallel or not. The corner pressures are produced by the walls themselves. If you treat the wall surface areas, you have no corner pressure to treat.
@@AcousticFields There are two types of traps, velocity and pressure, they both can treat bass frequencies. Pressure traps are effective in corners, since that's where the bass frequencies accumulate. I'm still quite new to all this, thanks for the reply.
It is not the corners of the room that are your problem. If you treat the complete wall, you have no corner issues. Treating the corners deals with about 20% of the overall unwanted pressure issues.@@GreySectoid
I'll see if that works, just ordered a bunch of acoustic panels enough for the whole room, I know they will get rid of the mid-high frequency echo, but not sure about the bass.@@AcousticFields
Echo is a repeating signal usually over distance. Rooms do not have echo, they have reverberation which is defined as to how long a sound stays around within the room after it has been sung, spokken, or played. Every surface exhibits a different frequency and amplitude of reverb issue. Reverberation produces reflections. Managing reflections requires a completely different treatment type than lower frequency pressure. If the panels you ordered are full of building insulation and all the same type, get ready for a disappointing sound quality.@@GreySectoid
So in my 10x10 room, turn it into a 6.5x6.5 room by putting 3' of treatment plus gap? 🤣 Cool, thats practical.
Nothing is practical about small rooms. Low frequency management takes space. Its physics.
the james randi of-sound insulation
There is no such term as sound insulation. There is sound or noise isolation. The process of insulation does not refer to sound.