Problem housing African tigerfish with tank mates - always a gamble, a time bomb...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- For two years our 4 green wolffish Hoplias lacerdae lived peacefully and grew together with the rulers of their 4500 gal tank - two VATF vitattus African tigerfish Hydrocynus vittatus (ironically Hydrocynus means, Greek, hydr = water + Greek, kyon = dog; vittatus means striped longitudinally). Currently the wolves are 1.5 foot, the VATF are close to 2 feet. Then, one day out of the blue one got attacked, despite the heavy feeding the tigers receive twice daily, that is until they can't feed anymore... Thence, I doubt a predatory attack. Something else set them off.
![เขามัทรี - เอ็กซ์ ศุภกฤต - จอนนี่มิวสิค [ Official MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AS9ufKuQIVs/mqdefault.jpg)
The tigers attacked a formidable opponent
2vs1 nor fair
Tyrone Catkiller Kang Nah tigers would fuck em up tbh a snakehead would fuck a wolffish up my 13 inch snakehead killed my 16 inch wolf fish lol
DIPTA DAS are you dumb ??? The wolf fish didn’t kill a snakehead lol the video never showed them together it’s a comparison of them feeding ive personally tried to keep my a wolf fish with a giant snakehead and my snakehead killed it 😔 I can show u videos of my fish even my payara survived and I lost a lot of money on the wolf fish
DIPTA DAS u should watch the video you sent again lol if u want I will personally buy another wolf fish and drop it in my tank with my giant. Snakhead and take a video for you as long as you pay for the wolf fish it’s only about 60$ usd here in china
DIPTA DAS yes I’ve done it my snakehead killed the wolf fish this is what I’m trying to tell you from experience add my Instagram I can show you my fish @dearplug.mov I’m not just talking on TH-cam this is my. Honest experience I didn’t expect the snakehead to kill it I was actually mad because I payed a lot more for the wolf fish
He's fighting to survive they really did a number on him. Looks like those tiger fish can turn into pack animals. Great video. Hopefully it make a full recovery.
Tiger fish are originally pack animal. They become solitary when they become too large like reaching 3-4 ft because food won't be enough for pack of goliath tigers. They lives in pack since after being born and leaves the pack and become solitary hunter once thier size becomes too large (3-4 ft.)
Maaaan Vic! I almost forgot how awesome this tank was at that time. Amazing
I watched it now too in a bit of disbelief :) Thank you. Blast from the past.
That's a shame. Hopefully he has the regenerative ability like piranha, cause he looks pretty miserable. Best of luck.
That. Poor guy is not looking to good I hope he makes it buddy those Tigers are nasty dudes 👍
Sorry to see an awesome fish like that wolffish in that condition, but I really don't believe the tigers to be the culprit. I've kept many tigerfish (Goliath and Vittatus) in the past. In my experience, they always inflicted deep clean laceration wounds/cuts. Looked like someone cut the fish with a knife, not scaling or mouth biting. I would really look at others in the tank, like the bowfin or a large, aggressive cichlid.
I am glad to encounter someone with a personal experience so close or surpassing mine. I totally agree with all you say in regards to the typical damage ATF business end leaves behind ... and hence was my hesitation to ascribe it to ATF but there simply isn't anyone else eligible based on the damage to the wolf and to the rest of their tank mates. If the damage was only to the back in front of the dorsal, that'd be one thing but the wolf has a very bad damage to the snout and teeth - I assume it must have answered back some and the only fish in the tank that have a bit of damage are the ATF. Hence the strawman conclusion. Bowfin and cichlids, the other wolf, ARTC, etc. all look virgin, not a wound.
@@Fish-Story I think there would be some kind of "feeding frenzy" here. So here's my perspective : i think that some of the fish ambushed the back of the wolf. The tigers seems that injured wolf as food and then attack.
OH DAMN.. hope he makes it.
I’m pretty confident your wolf will make it
I have had one neolamprologus buescheri (about 8cm tl) and one slender buffalo head cichlid (Stea. Tinanti about 10cm) all by their own in a 75 gallon tank (with alot of hiding spots) and they are fighting
to a grade the neo. bue. got his upper jaw ripped off...so, stuff like that can take place in "not" overcrowded tanks aswell.
Thank you for sharing. I appreciate it.
Have you got another home for him if he heals up or will he go back in where he was?
The plan was to place it in one of the ten 240 gal but it is moot now. The fish is gone.
Fish Story Aquarium & Rescue what do you mean the fish is gone, was it murdered by another fish?
Maybe they one day mistook him as another tiger fish with that head and teeth. He got away well..two big Tigerfish could do some fatal damage imagine without much effort. It looks like he locked lips with the attacker..that's something only the Tigers look capable of. Maybe the Oscars or Cichla?...but they would look cut up....I go with Tigers. He's lucky to be alive.
Me and others blame the bowfin first and foremost but the bowfin didn't sport any damage. Hence the fallback on the tiger explanation. Still, the whole case is pretty weak. The snout might have been banged up from running into walls escaping, not from fight wounds.
Awesome setup. Lots of massive fish.
Bowfin if it is still in the tank... is your culprit. The wounds are too shallow around the dorsal. Also, maybe the Dorado Salminus maxillosus
Bowfin was my first suspect too but the wolf has bad damage around the mouth, which means it fought back, yet the bowfin is intact, not a scratch on it, same with dorado (highly unlikely anyway), and only tigerfish has minor damage on it. So I am forced to conclude it is likely the tigerfish.
THIS TANK LOOKS FAR TO CROWDED
Your wolffish is seriously injured it cannot match the teeth and speed of African tiger fish.I thought that while typing this comment your wolf fish is dead. Better to seperate them from other monster fish or else if the more they grow bigger and larger the more of their tankmates suffer..
I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you. The injuries were superficial, not deep or serious wounds. It was the stress that did it in. No more ATF anyway.
Did the wolffish make it? I hope so, it's a beautiful fish
No, brother. Sorry to disappoint. It wasn't the injuries that killed but the stress.
Sad to hear that, as a fish keeper we learn from every incidents happened, hope we can be a better fish keeper
I don’t remember green wolfs to be this big
There is confusion and lack of clear and complete taxonomy. I can't even tell you what taxonomic genus and species this fish is. We as a community of hobbyist wolf fish keepers on MFK have failed to ID this fish, sold as a Green wolf fish, Argentina, to me by the great Wesley Wong of Rare Fish, California, USA.
poor guy... hope he makes it :(
Don't know a ton about keeping fish in aquariums, how difficult is it removing the injured fish from the main tank, especially with other predatory fish so close?
The tank mates present no problems. If an injured fish is still alert and swims well, then it presents a problem and I have to climb inside most usually, cannot just reach it with a net from the outside in a large tank.
I don't think the tigerfish is the culprit
So sorry you lost a cool fish. I can't afford big setups like that but I do have a 20 gallon tank with a pond comet in it. I won five goldfish at the local fair 12 years ago. Because I live in an apartment I buried the 4 at my mom's house, and when my big Richter passes he will join his tankmates sage, calypso, rain and Cooper in the fishy graveyard.
Thank you. Cool story. Goldfish appear to live on average 30+ years with proper care and genes. Hopefully your Richter will give you joy for many more years to come.
@@Fish-Story I call him Richter The Wonder fish sometimes because two years ago in December somehow he ended up outside of the tank. One of my cats kept going to a corner and acting strange but because he liked to hide in the decoration I had no clue Richter was not in the water. My miracle fish survived a little over 12 hours outside of the tank. When I found him I thought he was dead but then he moved so I threw him in a picture of water and he miraculously recovered. Sadly he did lose roughly 2/3 of his tail but he's still alive. His tank is right next to my bed so I can watch him and get splashed by him. After Rain died Richter stopped hiding in the tank decoration. Maybe I'm nuts but my little sage really enjoyed being touched. I've had lots of fish over the years and I've never had one that if I stuck my hand in the tank water would come up and start rubbing against my hand and actually allowing me to pet her. Due to the behavior they displayed multiple times I'm pretty sure Richter was the only male in a tank of females.
Wow. That's some story, probably unheard of, a very unique occurrence! The fish gills and skin must remain wet or moist to survive that long... It's not normal for goldfish to hide, they are not the hiding type of fish. I assume something stresses it or scares it, like your cats.... If after a tank mate had died, another wasn't hiding anymore, it is logical to assume the former bullied the latter.
Where are the tigers and both wolfs now?
I had to kill them off by the order of the government.
Wow that’s ridiculous. Even though they were in enclosure they had to be killed? Are they illegal to keep in Florida?
Yes. The government refused to give me a license, so they had to be killed.
Did the wolf survive??????
No, bro. I don't think it was the injuries but must have been the excessive stress.
Fish Story Aquarium & Rescue
Sorry to hear that, the poor thing,
Thanks for replying
Why not a bigger tank. Ya tanker. Its not. Tiny for all those
Not sure what you are saying. But thank you for chiming in.
Not reeally for a wolf fosh that tank
Perhaps not so much the tank but the tank mates as in the bowfin and ATF.
He'll survive their use to being damage by that type of teeth lol
The stress is the killer.
I thought wolf fish were pretty nuts, turns out tigerfish are worse
I dont know too much about fish but dont u have to many fish in that aquarium?
Thank you. If you will, please read the first / pinned comment under this video of ours: th-cam.com/video/HZVrAKe5oag/w-d-xo.html
Definitely does.
@@danielrenshaw3797 Please, see the reply above.
I did for sure. But I also see the video with my eyes
@@danielrenshaw3797 Excellent. I appreciate you taking the time to read my explanations and thank you for the feedback.
I would never put that in with my koi even if it was half dead
Our 4 specimen have proved to be quite peaceful with any and all tank mates who the wolves don't consider a prey (too big) and who don't bother the wolves.
interesting I've heard they're extremely agreesive and I've seen them fight fish must bigger than themself's
@@bone9695 Perhaps it depends on species. I've read not all wolffish are the same as far as territorial aggression. Aimara might be one of the most aggressive. But I don't know much about wolves. This have been my first and only ones. Not really my cup of tea.
Man that is a terrible tank and of course there will be trouble. Way too much overcrowding - even if its a temporary setup. Hope you have less fish now in that big tank (found them homes) because its a poor environment IMO
Thank you for your input and critique. Here is my generic response to such concerns, if you cared to read it. ||| I continue getting regular flack and thumbs down for the "overstock", apparently mostly from non-expert folks without a substantial experience in the keeping of monster fish or even sometimes any fish. I also often get comments from people anthropomorphizing fish, which means assigning human values, perceptions, and even sometimes thoughts and feelings to fish. In the interest of saving my time and possibly saving most of these commenters some aggravation I thought I better address it here.
“THE OVERSTOCK!!!” ~ To some, who don't know us and our posts on the Monster Fish Keepers and Planet Catfish forums, I totally agree it may look dangerously or unusually heavily stocked. Those peers, who know us, know it is not and there could even be room for more, as hard as it is to imagine. Yes, most our tanks and this particular 4500 gal tank are pretty heavily stocked.
There is a way to maintain a heavily stocked tank and not harm the fish. The biofilter sump for this tank has a volume of 15,000 gal and the water flow through the tank is 20,000 gallons per hour of maximally aerated water (water + air together), which means the turnover time is 12 minutes. To the fish health, the total water volume, that is tank + filter, can be more important than the tank volume alone: if the water turnover is fast enough, it asymptotically leads to an equalization of the water in the filter and in the tank, hence, effectively increasing the volume of water available for the all-important instant dilution of toxins produced by the fish, which is then eliminated by the nitrifying bacteria in the filter. I do plan to add a fifth and maybe sixth 5,000 GPH pump to bring the water flow up to 25,000-30,000 GPH and improve the current condition and be able to add to the stock, if found necessary, or more rescues come than go.
The water change is continuous, 24/7/365, and results in a 100% water change every 6 days in this tank and all our tanks. Nitrates are 20-40 ppm.
The water is pristine in that both ammonia and nitrite are always firmly at 0 ppm by an API liquid test kit and the fish are most usually healthy. In the second half of 2018, we've had a problem with supposedly a columnaris strain but it was brought into the system with new fish from the wild, my error, and I don't believe it had to do with the stock density. It spread to all tanks. We were losing fish from all tanks, including the lightly stocked.
There have been concerns raised about stress from the limited freedom of movement and frequent interaction with tank mates. Some of it is valid but not a horrible problem IMHO. Ultimately I admit that we are uncertain of the exact level of stress the fish are under but if a fish feeds, behaves, and looks as expected and lives out a reasonable life span, things must be fine in the first approximation. BTW, generalizing is wrong. There are 30+ fish species in this 4500 gal and most of them look and behave totally natural to me. Yet, surely some things could be improved, for instance, separating Vittatus African tigerfish and golden dorado from each other and from the rest. But I can't fix it immediately. I need to glue more tanks. The acrylic and the glue have already been bought. For now though, the fish that worry me a bit I think are at least adequate.
As for the other 4500 gal (with RTC, arapaima, etc.), these fish are mostly rescues and are indeed getting ready for an upgrade to a planned 30,000 gal. IMO, they have been fine in this tank so far. Most of them are 3'. A 3 footer in a 13'x13'x4.5' is not too bad. They swim, grow, and enjoy themselves from the little that I can tell. They have been in there for 3-4 years and grew up in that tank from far smaller sizes.
“THE JAIL!!!” ~ Anthropomorphizing fish is not scientifically correct, nor reflects the reality. Passing human traits to a fish, which for the nearly 100% is a” programmed” biological machine with an exceedingly little room for learning, is a crusade against science and knowledge, against our hobby and the first hand learning of nature, and against common sense. Fish don't "think" of, nor “perceive” freedom and space like humans do. The anthropomorphizing logic in its end result IMHO eliminates any and all fish keeping in captivity, or any animal keeping in captivity for that matter.
Many fish stay in one rather small part of the overall water body available to them. Not staying in one place usually is driven by diminishing feed availability and, another biggie, by a breeding behavior / migration. Still there are many species that stay, feed, and mate in one “fishing hole” or in the vicinity of some debris despite having a relatively unlimited body of water like a river or a large lake available to them.
Another example, many fish have an ocean at their disposal but hang around one coral rock all their lives. There are great dangers associated with traveling away from the safety of home, especially for smaller and medium size fish on menu of large predators. And they are “programmed” to know it.
If the feed is plentiful, the mates are near, and it is safe, many fish don’t exhibit any desire to leave and “explore the world” or get some “freshness, adventure, or entertainment” in an analogy to humans. Fish don’t get the cabin fever.
Some of what I stated in the prior section about the room applies to this section too.
CONCLUDING REMARKS ~ Our fish have healthy water and an adequate space to swim albeit some are ready for an upgrade or would benefit from a reshuffle, it is true. I also often ask those raising the “jail cell” or “too packed” issues - do you know how fish are raised that you buy from grocery stores and consume? The fish for human consumption are farmed mostly at a 10x-100x the density of ours.
Some reply we should look toward the best examples, not the worst. Agreed. But my point is: if one buys farmed fish from grocery stores, I'd not think one can in good conscience turn around and condemn what one sees here because anyone who eats the supermarket fish approves, however tacitly or not, of the farming practices.
Still, there is always room for improvement in everything we do. The argument that if you can't do it ideally, then don't do it at all looks good only on paper. Those who subscribe to it, can start eating that paper to stay away from everything done less than ideally, including the food manufacture, also science, education, sports, culture, religion, you name it (well, paper manufacture is horrible for ecology too, for one), and then see how long it'll sustain them.
P.S. ~ We are a DIY Public Aquarium and Rescue. These tanks too contain rescued fish available for adoption and waiting for their forever owners to come through. We adopt out. Yes, there are fees (we are not a charity and must make ends meet too) and humane keeping conditions to be met by prospective adopters.
I’ve always wondered what’s their growth rate? If anyone knows of a place to get my hands on an aimara wolf let me know please can’t find any and ones I do are 800+ in price
They grow rather slow, these grew from 4" to 18" over 4 years. I sometimes see aimara for sale on the MFK Marketplace - Vendors as well as personal Buy and Sell.
You looking for another one ?
Inbox me !!
Thank you. I don't have the license to keep wolf fish. Until I do, I can't have them.
jamais vu un poisson aussi triste mdr , il a toujours pas comprit ce qui lui est arrivé
I really hope you ended the poor fish's misery immediately after shooting this video and removed the giant tiger fish from the aquarium.
Thank you. It was long ago. I expected the wolf fish to live but it hasn't survived the night, not for the injuries but for the stress endured. Both tigerfish have been removed, and even killed off eventually by the order of the government.
How big are the eclipse catfish?
The biggest are 15"-16".
Awful pity you had to kill it, I know you do things by the book or law but sometimes it's worth keeping some things under wraps.
Thank you so much. It happened in the process of my applying for license.
Lol Just see a vid banging on about how wolffish are the most dangerous, most deadly, No.1 ruling fish, etc.......i posted the link to this vid lol
I understand but it's not fair to lump all wolf fish species together, plus sizes and ages, order of introduction, gender, season, and individual personality all matter.
Well u already know I love the Tigers but I can only imagine how hard they must be to keep. Shredded the wolf fish and wolf fish are usually pretty tough themselves.
I'm sure I probably asked you this before but are your Tigers goliath or regular Tigers?
Always love when u drop videos brother. Can't wait to see your next overall update video. Just saw Blake's upload, very cool. Is that Devil Cat from his video new or have I just missed it from your old videos?
Those appear to be some very nice looking Vittatus
I've not kept a fish yet that'd be harder to keep than ATF. The pair in 4500 gal are VATF, around 22". Yes, the wyckii is a recent donation. You are on top of things. I should be more careful around and utilize window curtains more just in case :)
Which are the regular tiger fish? I apologize for my ignorance.
@@AguilaReal112 0:24 with the stripes
@@AguilaReal112 sadly they are no longer with us, I believe Florida fish and wildlife showed up and killed them because they are not allowed in Florida
By the look of their teeth am surprised Tiger fish don't eat everything eventually lol
They would. The trick is to keep them fed meticulously.
@@Fish-Story Just keep em' stuffed full all the time lol
@@Fish-Story
For those planning to get an ATF, would you advise to house them as one specie per tank? Since if not fed meticulously they could eat their tank mates. Are they more tolerable with their conspecifics?
Thank you!
@@parol.aquatics Thank you for your ATF questions. I think you'd know all we know about them if you read through our two ATF blogs here: VATF www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/posts/7697995 and GATF www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/posts/7764989
That's what happens when you put two alpha predators from different regions that would never be around each other in a small enclosed space. And it's over crowded in there, likely just aggravation strike, because it is alive.
I do hope it makes a full recovery, but what is your plan for it if it does?
Thank you. This is an older video. The complete story of our 4 green wolves is reported here: www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/quartet-of-hoplias-lacerdae-green-wolf-fish-argentina.709088/#post-7998516
@@Fish-Story good read, thank you, yeah my wels was an asshole too, lol
You keep a wels!? That's pretty unique. How old and how big is yours?
@@Fish-Story it was many many years ago, I got it as a child not knowing what it was, had it 8yrs kept getting bigger and eating everything lol I got it when I was about 12yrs old, I'm pushing 40 now. Lol
It was no where near as big as yours but had that same aggression. I also had a snakehead I wasn't aware of at that time as well. Those fish have long been gone 😉
But I have a baby Goliath Tigerfish that I will see to full size, he's in a 90gal right now, then going to a 300gal while I finish up my 3500gal.
Nice story. Thank you for sharing. Sounds like you are not from the USA; likely Europe? In 8 years your wels should have grown into a very large fish, even if kept outdoors in a temperate climate. Why didn't it? Good luck with the GATF. They are exceedingly hard to raise to large size.
Looks like he had a fight with another wolf fish African tigers Strike! They don’t fight but wolf fish naturally dont like each other looks like he had a real fight and with he’s teeth there would be evidence on the tigers mouth but there’s none I bet those wolf fish got into it
Thank you. Actually these wolves have been quite docile, even timid, I'd say, for us. I have never seen them pick a fight or bother any tank mate. Wolves in general indeed have a reputation for being aggressive or even very aggressive fish but not these 4 in our experience. To this day I still am not sure whether it was a VATF or bowfin who had done it to this wolf.
Keeping tigers with anything is a bad idea
They seem to ignore anything that lives on the bottom in their tank.
@@Fish-Story
Bottom dwellers are safe tankmates for ATF? Provided they are the same size as the tiger fishes
ok ,didnt see this video , its doesnt look like lacerdae ?
You have a good eye for wolves. No, it doesn't even though it was sold as one with a qualifier "Argentina".
@@Fish-Story yes , i owned a aimara before , but not lacerdae , in fact i find them rarer then aimara
@@sdqsdq6274 It was sold as "green wolf fish, Argentina". Experts on MFK told me it is not lacerdae.
Damn man....poor guy
If that was hoplias aimara your African tiger would be dead trust me my friend big arrowana and large snakehead turn into half becuase hr put them together in my hoplias aimara
It depends on relative sizes but if we are speaking of comparable sizes I trust you! These wolves are nothing like the aimara, they are timid.
What type of wolf is it ?
Wolf fish taxonomy needs a lot of work. This was given to me as Green wolf fish Hoplias cf. lacerdae "Argentina" but experts on the MFK forum said it doesn't look like lacerdae, nor could come to a consensus on its species.
Fish Story Aquarium & Rescue some
Awesome fish in there
Put a 2ft aimara in there , the tiger won’t mess with that
my wolf fish always bites my tiger fishs so i sold my wolf fish...but after 7years my tiger fish died :(
Sorry to hear that. What species were they and how big did they get? Their natural lifespan is much longer.
@@Fish-Story mala and tanzaniae tiger fish. Tiger fish is about 12 inch or smth so is the wolf
@@sundewy Thank you for the info. Tanzies are not commonly kept. I've never had them. Perhaps the TAFT sustained bad injuries or much stress, which shortened its life. Not necessarily only from the wolf. AFT are hard to keep in general. Neither have I had a Hoplias malabaricus. I am not much of a wolf fish guy. These are the only ones I have ever had and they have always been very peaceful for me with any tank mates.
@@Fish-Story
Do you have experience with payara armatus? Are they the same as ATF which are harder to keep in general..
Thank you!
@@parol.aquatics Never had payaras. I hear they die for no reason when reach good size, like a couple feet.
It's a shame that fish got hurt but it's also a shame it wasn't captured on camera. Wolffish are no pushovers.
These "green wolf fish, Argentina", were quite timid in my experience, never starting any trouble.
@@Fish-Story Thanks for the information. Did you capture any of the fighting on camera? Any other fights on camera?
No. I don't see any fighting often and when I do, I break them up and move the fish, I don't run for the camera, which would be cruel.
@@Fish-Story Good man.
Do the wolffish and bowfin often interact?
Yes in my case. Our bowfin didn't let our 4 wolves to be anywhere close.
Fish Story Aquarium & Rescue huh! They sort of fill in similar niches in their native habitat, so it makes sense. It must be very interesting to observe their behavior.
If one is into fish, it is interesting. In a large and busy tank as this, the wolves can get away from the bowfin and live more or less ok. Otherwise, the result might be having to rehome one or the others.
Any up date?
Thank you for your interest. All the info can be found in our thread dedicated to these wolf fish: www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/quartet-of-hoplias-lacerdae-green-wolf-fish-argentina.709088/
Get a bigger tank wtd
This is a hospital tank.
I would’ve put him down... poor thing looks in pain