I think 2400 A.D. as a total package of music was quite an accomplishment at the time. It spooked me that the hard work for all the music I composed for it were never used within the game, because it was canned. Anyway, I hope you guys enjoy the music, still! =)
I have always wondered how you made music for the c64. Did you first play and compose with synthesizers the music you had ideas of making and then made the same music on the c64 afterwards? Or did you write musical composition on paper first..or what? It's hard to imagine that you just made it on the go on the c64, in...assembler? That is very impressive if it's the case:-) Anyways, we are about the same age and now and then I refresh all the good memories form childhood and teenage years in the days of homecomputing, by listening to all the great tunes you guys made. Yes and of course I follow the demoscene.
Straight from my imagination, mostly... programming the notes in hexadecimal .byte strings directly into Turbo Assembler... Like this: th-cam.com/video/i7Wiq_y81XI/w-d-xo.html
Mostly straight from my imagination/inspiration directly into assembler, typing down hexadecimal .byte strings, indicating sounds, lengths, notes and effects. So, 90%, yes, on the go. =) Like this: th-cam.com/video/i7Wiq_y81XI/w-d-xo.html
JT, you do a killer job with the C64 sound chip resources. It's very different than the chip used on the NES because (if I'm recalling correctly) the channels on the C64 had the ability to change waveform at any point whereas the NES sound chip had more waveform channels, but they were fixed. I'm curious as to your opinion between composing for C64 versus the NES. I've heard your work with Bram Stoker's Dracula, Robocop 3 (of course), and Alien 3 to name a few and it is quite distinct and punchy, something that a lot of NES composers never seemed to tap into. Thanks for what you do!
Isaac: Yes, the SID soundchip within the Commodore 64 has 3 channels that can change between waveforms (noise, PWM, triangle and saw) up to 4 million times a second (according to specs), but with a a 1 MHZ CPU to control it within the cycles given, the best that could be done was basically what could be done within that "limit". Mostly, the SID updated every 1/50th of a second (50 herz) (PAL) or 60 herz (NTSC). The NES soundchip indeed has 3 fixed waveforms (channel 1, 2 and the noise channel) and one kind of programmable 3rd channel, which was standard holding a "sort of" SINE/triangle waveform (very bassy). Channel 1 & 2 (both PWM): being able to be set to 12.5%, 25%, 50%, 75% and 88,5% width)... which, when switching quickly between them, could create a more SID-like PWM sound. What made the difference in the NES music I composed was that I looked very intensely to the specifications first, before even starting to composed music for it... and using the possibilities to it's best use. The 3rd channel plus the noise channel made for great sounding bassy drums... and off course, using arpeggios (which is great on any FM soundchip and is now a catch in most electronic music)... rooms it all up for quite a good pallet within the limited set of voices for each machine. 'nuff said... 8bit soundchips always captured me from the very beginning and it's fun to capture great musical ideas within a very limited environment. =) The music is always the most important part (melody, harmony, rhythm (groove if you will), but also makes for a *very* distinctive soundscape as soon as one drives the chip to its limits... Limitations boost creativity.
Indeed, given the whole package of songs I composed for it, but ... at least it's out there for people to enjoy (as music). I personally think that when a game gets "canned" (unreleased), at least the working state of it should be dumped for the nerds. ;-)
Probably in my top 3 of favourite Jeroen Tel tracks...just so epic and it keeps changing throughout...listening to this instantly transports me back to that era and I can lose time.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the chords on the 4th (volume) channel were done in software. But also would have been difficult with the limited 1MHz clockspeed, if it needed to be done with raster interrupts. What really makes me love this sort of music is the effort that goes into CODING it.
This is so awesome, i think it is my absolute favorite C64 tune. When i listen to chiptunes it always makes me sad, that videogames nowadays dont have tracks like this anymore. I mean it is like "normal music" now, if you know what i want to say. So yeah, to me the most important thing in video game have always been the chiptunes, so somehow most games now i just dont care about...
It could be viewed as 'inverted synth'. Square wave contains almost all harmonics, so instead of adding signals, you just filter out unwanted frequencies from a square (or whatever suits your needs). Same result.
We had the tendency to release "promotion disks"... 5"25 disk... to promote our music. This saved it... if that wouldn't have happened, the music would have died in my basement (so to speak). =)
Love it! Back in the 80s I had many discs just with music, because I always found them great to listen to. 😄With some games, I even loaded the game only to listen to it's music, because I didn't like the game itself. 😄
So what does the fourth graph show? The SID only has 3 voices, and apreggiation and interweaving are already encoded in the signals for each voice. Is that some meta display for control information like filters or something??
If you mean the 4th/bottom voice its a sample channel if im not wrong.. Edit: People say that its a "virtual" 4th channel. When you change the main volume it makes a little tick sound. So composers used this glitch to make (sort-of) samples
That's a sort of bug in the SID chip that musicians can exploit to make a virtual 4th voice. When the main volume is adjusted up or down it makes a tiny little tick sound. If it's changed fast enough it can be used for a PWM-style wave form. One good use of it is in the Afterburner title music by Maniacs of Noise (which Jeroen Tel was a part of if I remember right).
@@00Skyfox I know it can be used to recreate samples. What I was asking for as to what sample they are attempting to play back? Is it strings or something?
Hello my name is João Paulo Zaneti i'm from São Paulo Brazil and i study game development and was wondering if i coud use this video and some other just like this on a project, made only for experience and portfolio, i'll take no profit out of it, just stamble across this soundTrack and though that they would look very cool as background for a "Pong" game im working on.
there is a little exploit some C64 composers found that lets you playback samples from a fourth "channel", i dont remember how it was done and besides there were many ways to do it, but there are videos explaining it, its easy to understand too,
@@Iouie_There are two ways you can get the effect: the first is exploiting a glitch in the volume register that can cause pops. This allows you to do PCM. You can also exploit the test bit for a not dissimilar effect. Both have a high CPU cost, but test bit effects work on newer SIDs better as the glitch with the volume register was mostly fixed.
according to a comment you could also use the test bit, and it works on newer sid chips, but i don't know what that is because i'm not a sid programmer
![Jeroen Tel & Reyn Ouwehand - "Rubicon (C64)" Full Soundtrack [Oscilloscope View]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Glyq91vRzeI/mqdefault.jpg)
![Jeroen Tel & Reyn Ouwehand - "Rubicon (C64)" Full Soundtrack [Oscilloscope View]](/img/tr.png)
![Maniacs of Noise - "Echofied 6581" (C64) [Oscilloscope View]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/POXaKOjdjRA/mqdefault.jpg)
![Tim Follin - "Ghouls 'n' Ghosts (C64)" Full Soundtrack [Improved Oscilloscope View]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/T2BhAe5Ec6s/mqdefault.jpg)
I think 2400 A.D. as a total package of music was quite an accomplishment at the time. It spooked me that the hard work for all the music I composed for it were never used within the game, because it was canned. Anyway, I hope you guys enjoy the music, still! =)
I have always wondered how you made music for the c64. Did you first play and compose with synthesizers the music you had ideas of making and then made the same music on the c64 afterwards? Or did you write musical composition on paper first..or what? It's hard to imagine that you just made it on the go on the c64, in...assembler? That is very impressive if it's the case:-) Anyways, we are about the same age and now and then I refresh all the good memories form childhood and teenage years in the days of homecomputing, by listening to all the great tunes you guys made. Yes and of course I follow the demoscene.
Straight from my imagination, mostly... programming the notes in hexadecimal .byte strings directly into Turbo Assembler... Like this:
th-cam.com/video/i7Wiq_y81XI/w-d-xo.html
Mostly straight from my imagination/inspiration directly into assembler, typing down hexadecimal .byte strings, indicating sounds, lengths, notes and effects.
So, 90%, yes, on the go. =)
Like this:
th-cam.com/video/i7Wiq_y81XI/w-d-xo.html
JT, you do a killer job with the C64 sound chip resources. It's very different than the chip used on the NES because (if I'm recalling correctly) the channels on the C64 had the ability to change waveform at any point whereas the NES sound chip had more waveform channels, but they were fixed. I'm curious as to your opinion between composing for C64 versus the NES. I've heard your work with Bram Stoker's Dracula, Robocop 3 (of course), and Alien 3 to name a few and it is quite distinct and punchy, something that a lot of NES composers never seemed to tap into. Thanks for what you do!
Isaac: Yes, the SID soundchip within the Commodore 64 has 3 channels that can change between waveforms (noise, PWM, triangle and saw) up to 4 million times a second (according to specs), but with a a 1 MHZ CPU to control it within the cycles given, the best that could be done was basically what could be done within that "limit". Mostly, the SID updated every 1/50th of a second (50 herz) (PAL) or 60 herz (NTSC).
The NES soundchip indeed has 3 fixed waveforms (channel 1, 2 and the noise channel) and one kind of programmable 3rd channel, which was standard holding a "sort of" SINE/triangle waveform (very bassy).
Channel 1 & 2 (both PWM): being able to be set to 12.5%, 25%, 50%, 75% and 88,5% width)... which, when switching quickly between them, could create a more SID-like PWM sound.
What made the difference in the NES music I composed was that I looked very intensely to the specifications first, before even starting to composed music for it... and using the possibilities to it's best use.
The 3rd channel plus the noise channel made for great sounding bassy drums... and off course, using arpeggios (which is great on any FM soundchip and is now a catch in most electronic music)... rooms it all up for quite a good pallet within the limited set of voices for each machine.
'nuff said... 8bit soundchips always captured me from the very beginning and it's fun to capture great musical ideas within a very limited environment. =)
The music is always the most important part (melody, harmony, rhythm (groove if you will), but also makes for a *very* distinctive soundscape as soon as one drives the chip to its limits...
Limitations boost creativity.
Such a great tune. It really has it's spirit. Such a pity it is that it never saw the light of day...
Indeed, given the whole package of songs I composed for it, but ... at least it's out there for people to enjoy (as music).
I personally think that when a game gets "canned" (unreleased), at least the working state of it should be dumped for the nerds. ;-)
Probably in my top 3 of favourite Jeroen Tel tracks...just so epic and it keeps changing throughout...listening to this instantly transports me back to that era and I can lose time.
When you see four channels, you know shit’s about to get real
easily one of my favourites from tel
Thanks, bro!
I wouldn’t be surprised if the chords on the 4th (volume) channel were done in software.
But also would have been difficult with the limited 1MHz clockspeed, if it needed to be done with raster interrupts.
What really makes me love this sort of music is the effort that goes into CODING it.
It's hard to explain but I believe that trick has something to do with RAM
@@cfothough Yes, most packages of tunes had to be
@@cfothough so, this requires RAM?
Damn
Definitely my favourite C64 tune.
Why does this song sound happy and sad at the same time? Interestingly it is one of my favourite songs on the C64.
This is so awesome, i think it is my absolute favorite C64 tune. When i listen to chiptunes it always makes me sad, that videogames nowadays dont have tracks like this anymore. I mean it is like "normal music" now, if you know what i want to say. So yeah, to me the most important thing in video game have always been the chiptunes, so somehow most games now i just dont care about...
I honestly have no words to say. This is just plain beautiful on the breadbin.
What a masterpiece! Thank you Jeroen!
Ahh what a great tune. Shame the game never came out.
By the way, the low sample rate on the 4th channel makes them looks like random white noises :p
A far cry from the simplicity of Ultima 3. With this game, it's this complex song with this weird sample trick.
The sample chords sound like they were sampled from a Montre 8' stop on a French Organ. (Equivalent to a Principal or an Open Diapason other organs.)
You'd have to ask Dr. Rob Hubbard... I ripped his samples for this... with his permission, of course! =D
@@JeroenTel skate or die chords?
The drop at 2:13 is amazing.
Amazing energized
i just find it stunning how close you can make the 6581 sound like an early kind of adlib card even though the 6581 (or 8050) wasn't based on synth.
It could be viewed as 'inverted synth'. Square wave contains almost all harmonics, so instead of adding signals, you just filter out unwanted frequencies from a square (or whatever suits your needs). Same result.
This is beautiful
2:25 on has a very Zeta Force feel to it, wonder if zabutom was inspired by this possibly?
Considering the game wasn't released, it's most likely a coincidence.
@@ExtremeWreck Zabutom probably found out about this soundtrack. Zeta Force is not a game, it is a song.
@@cfothough I know, but I mean, how would he know about this anyway?
@@justinhiggins2090 Even though the game was never released, the songs have been out for a while
We had the tendency to release "promotion disks"... 5"25 disk... to promote our music. This saved it... if that wouldn't have happened, the music would have died in my basement (so to speak). =)
Love it! Back in the 80s I had many discs just with music, because I always found them great to listen to. 😄With some games, I even loaded the game only to listen to it's music, because I didn't like the game itself. 😄
Epic. Just EPIC...
The Best Theme on C64!!
❤
6:24 im gonna use
Reminds me of Tangerine Dream...
So what does the fourth graph show? The SID only has 3 voices, and apreggiation and interweaving are already encoded in the signals for each voice. Is that some meta display for control information like filters or something??
If you mean the 4th/bottom voice its a sample channel if im not wrong..
Edit: People say that its a "virtual" 4th channel. When you change the main volume it makes a little tick sound. So composers used this glitch to make (sort-of) samples
5:22 Better than interstellar
Bro can you tell how to get different patterns in sidwiz?
What's the 4th channel used for here?
That's a sort of bug in the SID chip that musicians can exploit to make a virtual 4th voice. When the main volume is adjusted up or down it makes a tiny little tick sound. If it's changed fast enough it can be used for a PWM-style wave form. One good use of it is in the Afterburner title music by Maniacs of Noise (which Jeroen Tel was a part of if I remember right).
@@00Skyfox I know it can be used to recreate samples. What I was asking for as to what sample they are attempting to play back? Is it strings or something?
@@Sh-hg8kf Ah, ok. I misunderstood.
Hello my name is João Paulo Zaneti i'm from São Paulo Brazil and i study game development and was wondering if i coud use this video and some other just like this on a project, made only for experience and portfolio, i'll take no profit out of it, just stamble across this soundTrack and though that they would look very cool as background for a "Pong" game im working on.
how are there 4 channels?
I'm asking me the same question.
there is a little exploit some C64 composers found that lets you playback samples from a fourth "channel", i dont remember how it was done and besides there were many ways to do it, but there are videos explaining it, its easy to understand too,
@@Iouie_There are two ways you can get the effect: the first is exploiting a glitch in the volume register that can cause pops. This allows you to do PCM. You can also exploit the test bit for a not dissimilar effect. Both have a high CPU cost, but test bit effects work on newer SIDs better as the glitch with the volume register was mostly fixed.
4 waves? Was SID not limited to 3?
it's a fake 4th channel which is created when you change the main volume of the sid chip, because there is a bug in it that causes a small click.
according to a comment you could also use the test bit, and it works on newer sid chips, but i don't know what that is because i'm not a sid programmer
@@tauon_ Oh. thx. never knew that. c64 was a cool toy from the past. Learned assembly on it. But sound was way off from my point of interest.
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