It's exactly what has happened with me, I'm able to speak English due to the fact that I'm able to understand what is saying to me in English. My brain gets used to the language, the rhythm of the language, the sounds of the language and i ended up learning to speak it and getting my message across using the English language. I'm a native Portuguese speaker, the only thing I can say about Stephen krashen's comprehensible input hypothesis is, he's absolutely correct. You acquire a language when you expose yourself in any language. I've never studied English grammar, never. I acquire it reading and listening to.
Brazilian guy? Quanto tempo vc demorou estou nessa estrada faz alguns meses parece que vai demorar anos e anos pra ficar fluente, em que momento vc começou o output?
'I acquire it reading and listening to.' "Listening" is an intransitive verb, and so 'listening to' requires an object. In English we would say ''I acquire it by reading and listening to input.'
' You acquire a language when you expose yourself in any language' 'Expose yourself to any language'. ' expose yourself' by itself means you are appearing naked in public.
I started from absolute zero by immersing into huge amount of written daily communication since 2008 (I listened separately every new word while reading and responding messages). In 2 years I went to study to be a translator. I had studied with a tutor only one year in 2009 and we used some textbooks. I have never used English textbooks ever since and one year before that. I just occasionally read and rearead Grammar books. I worked as a translator and interpreter for a few years. Since 2016 I've been teaching English. In 2019 I started listening English every day for hours on TH-cam. I adore it.
I've been living in Ecuador for the past two years and I too have had a similar experience with Spanish,. I can engage in basic conversations in stores, airports and taxis but still find it impossible to engage in any meaningful conversation. What I found very useful though is I downloaded a favorite book with its Spanish version, "Cien Anos de Soledad" by Marquez, write out each paragraph, double-spaced, then write in what I think it says, and then write out the English version and compare and learn. It works wonders because you learn the actual way they communicate, sometime with words and phrases that defy direct word for word translation, like metaphors, similes, and cultural references.
Yeah, I've got one of those too! The dual language books are pretty awesome. It's also a really important thing that you pointed out, that not everything has a direct translation.
One tip about listening: if you wait till if feels comprehensible, it never will. You need to listen a lot to be able start to follow along effectively. At first it will sound incomprehensible and thats ok. You brain just needs to adjust to the sounds. Then it will sound like words, then it will sound like sentences, and finally it will start to sound like meaning.
My grad school roommate was from Romania, and in just 5 years after moving to the US she could speak and write English much better than most native speakers. When I remarked on her excellent language learning ability, she revealed her secret weapon: watching movies and TV shows in English with English subtitles. And watching lots; usually a couple hours every evening. Unfortunately, as I've attempted to do this with Spanish I'm discovering that the subtitles frequently don't match the spoken words. It's as if whoever typed the subtitles had simply translated the English script, without paying attention to how the words and phrases had been changed by the voice actors to better match the lip movements on screen and the actual rhythm of natural spoken Spanish. So it can be frustrating, but I suppose it's still helpful. I've tried to use Spanish TED talks as another method, because the subtitles on those are usually exact transcripts of what is being spoken. But unfortunately those talks are often not engaging enough to keep me focused.
That's weird, I haven't noticed such an issue (of course I'd notice less because I use spanish subtitles less as I am spanish, although sometimes I do use them). For the sake of trying to help: Have you tried using a different source of content that's still engaging to you? Are you using big name sources for your content? Like Netflix, HBO and such, I mean. Sorry that you're facing this challenge!
I've been using it a ton. In fact, enough people asked about it that I just finished a new video that will go live tomorrow morning that just shows what I do.
Krashen is 100% right. I can feel it intuitively. The problem is that we as non native speakers lack the environment every native speaker of their language has when they grow up. That environment just encourages kids to acquire language. It is highly emotionally comfortable. Methods based on analysing are harmful. They create anxiety and turn it into a habit that will get stiff and really hard to get rid of in the future
I started with reading to gain vocabulary and after that I began to listen to radio programs like the voice of America special English show. I got to a good level of English where I could understand simple stories told slowly. After a few years I decided to watch, read and listen to most things in English. I'm still learning new words but now with way less effort. Obviously I can't talk or use all the words and phrases that I understand but I'm comfortable with almost any kind of topic I watch or listen to. PS: What I never thought was that learning English would help tremendously with learning french 😂 so being a spanish native speaker and knowing English got me like 50% percent of my french 😮 and I mean it seriously like the progress I'm making just by reading and listening to french podcasts is crazy 😊
*Reading* has *never* been my favoured input, but rather watching/listening (and eventually mimicking). For Hebrew, I like watching through the "Shtisel" series - without subtitles. For Korean, I like to watch episodes of a home and garden show. However, I was taught colloquial Arabic by *parroting phrases* after the teacher - and those phrases are still in my brain after 30 years!
Stephen Krashen is perfectly correct that if you can read and understand books in , let's say Spanish, then you will learn Spanish. Who knew? Stephen Krashen introduced his 5 hypotheses about 40 years ago, and 40 years of scientific research on these hypothesis has lead to them being given the status of 'hypotheses'. Krashen recommends providing large amounts of easy written input, such as graded readers. Graded readers are superb things. I recommend them. And large amounts of input are necessary to learn a language. How does Krashen's theory explain the existence of graded readers, when his theories of language acquisition refute the claim that some aspects of grammar and vocabulary are at a different level to other aspects of grammar and vocabulary? In his hypothesis, it's all just messages.
If I am understanding you correctly, here are some things that might get to what you are saying: The point of the Comprehensible Input hypothesis definitely is not that graded readers are the end-all of Spanish learning. Krashen talks about them a lot (probably a bit too much), but that is very specifically because reading those is what he is currently doing in his life to improve his Spanish... he tells that story frequently as an example. But he also says that his Spanish is only so-so and that Spanish is not one of his better languages.. so they are good for him. But it is very specific to his level in that language. And as far as I know he doesn't refute that there are different levels.. kinda the opposite. Comprehensible input isn't every "message", it is saying that when you immerse in input where you understand 80-90% (N+1) then you are in an optimal place to aquire language. It is also saying that the moments where you understand are when that language gets reinforced in the language center of your brain, as opposed to how your mind stores memorized information and concepts. If your level is at or near zero, then it's hard to find the right material to satisfy the requirements of good input. A graded reader isn't comprehensible input to you. It's incomprehensible, and it won't benefit you much to smash your brain against it. Basically in that case, the closest you can get to N+1 is literally maybe one word and someone pantomiming what that word means(Dreaming Spanish channel), or drawing a picture(Fabulaudit channel), or a cartoon lesson on Duolingo. But at that stage, that is as close as you can get. But you definitely don't start out at graded readers.
@@filjumpedin Krashen can't ever define what N+1 is. I'm not saying his hypotheses are wrong. Just that after 40 years of research, they remain mere hypotheses. Is Krashen an expert? There was an interview with him about 4 years ago with MattvsJapan, when he was asked about Anki. He said he had never heard of Anki. Krashen denigrates flashcards as useless, and yet he had never even heard of Anki? What sort of expert is that?
It's true, I mean, there is an argument that the hypotheses form something that meets the criteria for a theory, etc, but that is just mincing words. And a theory isn't a law anyway. I think the truth is that Krashen hit on several core truths about how humans aquire language, as well as what it actually means to aquire language rather than just memorize. That was 40 years ago. There are definitely things after that expand, adjust, and refine that work to create a more modern understanding... and there are a lot more questions that need to be answered. But I do think that Krashen's work is a solid core understanding to start from. Having said that, LOL, I do hear you about him being out of touch with things like Anki. Or even in the realm of what exists for comprehensible input, he still talks about graded readers but not about youtube, chatgpt, or other modern sources of input that are more accessible for everyone and plentiful. He's old-school.... probably because he is quite old. :) Personally I just appreciate the value he brings. I know there are new ways of doing things, and I'll definitely leverage every advantage I can get. I don't look to him for a how-to learn, but instead a how-to evaluate new tools and what I'm doing at my level. Anyway, I love your comments. It gives me a lot to think about!
Hi bro, im native in spanish, and advanced in english and portiguese. In fact, its not hard to find content in spanish, theres a plenty of and really good material in quality. 3:17 If you want to, we can recommend each other, books, videos, etc based on our interests
TH-cam had plenty of shows in any level.e am learning Spanish and Russian. I watch 10 minutes with English subtitles then go back and watch it with Russia subtitles and then go back in just Russian. I Spanish I now can fist watch in Spanish with no subtitle, although w do slow it dot to 85% speed
Thanks for watching! I mean, obviously, I can't take much credit. Most of that belongs to Dr. Krashen. He has spent his whole career working on language learning and developing this process. But I do hope my little layer of personal perspective adds something. Thanks for checking it out!
Thanks for making this video. I think its one of the best interpretations and explanations of Krashens work. It has been advocated for years by experts in sla that we move beyond calling his work theories and start calling them facts.
Thanks for that! It really means a lot to me as a creator. What I really wanted to do with the video is sum up his work, and add a little bit of my personal perspective. So hearing you say this makes me think that I accomplished that at least to some degree :)
@@filjumpedin i think the other guys in this thread have learned so implicitly they don't even know it. 😂. What video of dr krashen is that you were showing clips of, the one of him in front of the blackboard? And is it on youtube?
Comprehensible input is the basic method in my learning process, but not the only one. If I only used this method, it would last for donkey's years. I need to speed up the process with some deliberate learning (grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation practice...)
Totally. Even Krashen talks at points how people can benefit from grammar. I understand it as just that he puts the aquisition first. Kinda like we understand our own language, we first learn to speak and understand and that is 95% of what it means to be fluent. Then later add in grammar to see why certain things are correct or not.
I used to think it was easier for children because they're younger, but lately I've come to believe that while youth is definitely an advantage, the impressive rate that children can acquire a language comes from their learning environment because they're bombarded with input. People will go out of their way to teach and correct children, and they have a mindset where they don't question rules that don't align with their existing logic sometimes. They just absorb and repeat. As someone who's trying to learn japanese, that was a hurtle I had to pass, because the rules are at times so different from english that I would compare what I was learning of japanese to my understanding of english and found it frustrating when they didn't match up. Eventually I realized that language is less like math and more like a puzzle. Instead of trying to compare things 1 for 1, I should just be trying to aquire the image of what's being said to me with the pieces that I'm given. That shift in mindset, and the belief that acquiring a language is a natural human thing and that anyone can do it with enough input has really helped me get over the belief that I'm not going to be able to learn because I'm not that young anymore.
I want to agree with this as clearly he has researched a lot. BUT, I don’t agree with certain things and he speaks in absolutes. Regarding making students speak being a cause of “considerable anxiety” certainly isn’t true for me. I cant wait to start speaking and using the little knowledge I know. A lot of people say they can understand but not speak a language - that’s because they need more speaking practice. Therefore it is a skill which should be practiced. Clearly comprehensible input works, I am not doubting that. But if you want to get better at speaking - Speak! And if you enjoy it then do it. If someone said to me they need to improve their speaking ability I wouldn’t tell them to get more comprehensible input. Also, at the very beginner level of any language, it is soooo difficult trying to get ‘compelling’, ‘interesting’ and ‘engaging’ input - it’s almost impossible. You have to study some basics first. If you don’t it is going to take you a lot longer until you get to the stage where you can enjoy content.
schools: students haven't acquired language, we better spend more hours on explicit instruction and drop subjects with interesting reading material. Also schools: why are test scores getting worse?!
It’s interesting how AI researchers have come to the same conclusion. The large language models that are in vogue right now train on vast amounts of data. The get giant amounts of input. At first, they are wildly unreliable but with enough time and input, they come out with pretty good things. It’s the same with chess. You need thousands of games and the best have a feeling that something is not correct. You don’t just memorize 1000 chess rules and become a GM. You must play tens of thousands of games. But back to AI, it was originally thought that a simple dictionary and maybe 1000 grammar rules could easily translate anything. But a word doesn’t equal another word. So strengthening that link thousands of time doesn’t do much. Rather, a web of links generated by thousands or millions of examples is what works.
The thing I do is always reading the Wikipedia in another language other than mine, preferably German or Russian. It's hard to think of another source with so much variety as Wikipedia, plus it has plenty of info about the specific cultures using that language. If the language still is hard to me, I use pop up dictionaries as a kind of walking stick. I owe much to Wikipedia.
I agree totally with your point about, how do you find compelling and engaging input when, as a beginer, you're unlikely to find anything that fits the CI definition? A video about how you use to get ChatGPT to design you stories would be very interesting.
That is great to hear because I've been mulling over whether I should do something like that over the last few days. Now that I know there is an interest, I'll get to work on it :)
@@filjumpedin Have you come across Refold? It's a methodology which incorporates the idea of lot's of listening but not necessarily "comprehensible" input and it pretty much ignores all of Krashen's other ideas. My way of seeing it is that Refold is "learn like a grown-up" and Krashen's (cluster of ideas) is "learn like a baby." If you have the time and patience to learn that way - all good! I don't!
I don't think you quite get it. Do babies learn language by their parents shoving a grammar book in their face and teaching them grammar rules? No. They learn, or acquire language only through input, which is what they hear, then they output what they hear. When they get older, they input through reading and output through writing. It's how you learned your native language, and you can't tell me it isn't.
If anyone out there can help, I’d appreciate it. I’m struggling with this concept of comprehensible input. I’m reading so very basic Spanish, some of it makes sense to me only because I tried previously learning Spanish, so seeing those words, help me contextualise and understand some thoughts. There is still masses of information which I still can’t get my head around. I’ve re-read the material countless times and nothing. Have I misunderstood the idea of Comprehensible input? If I was learning from scratch knowing, no Spanish words, no grammar, re-reading the passage or a video story wouldn’t improve my knowledge it hasn’t so far with the words I am not familiar with. Any helpful thoughts will be appreciated, am I just doing wrong. My thoughts now are, I should learn the sounds of the alphabet and vowels, learn 1000 most popular words, then complete a video course whist studying stories for the comprehensible input part. This seems to go against what Comprehensible Input is about is that the case?
I'm glad you asked this, because what you wrote could have perfectly describe me a few months ago. So I'm gonna dump a book on you here. This is what has been working for me. Bear in mind, this is just me and my experience, so take it all with a grain of salt. First off, repeating the same things over and over is definitely not the way to go. I did that too. And it sucks. Just, no. The biggest misconception that I see is that "comprehensible input" just means "any input". It doesn't. If you aren't understanding 80-90% of it, or aren't interested in it. Then it isn't really comprehensible input. The hardest part about the whole thing is that it leaves the early beginner with a chicken and egg problem. How do you understand 80% of anything when you have nothing? So you have to find something, anything really, that starts making things understandable AND interesting to you. The way to think about comprehensible input is as an ideal, not really a method. Every method for learning actually contains some degree of "comprehensible input". It has to or it doesn't work at all. The question is: how effective will this be for aquisition? Because the real key here is aquisition, that magical point where you go from just being able to define a word to using it naturally.. that is what is created by comprehensible input. And that isn't the same as memorization. Ideal input is where you are making new connections to things you already know 90% of the time, with some new words getting added here and there. In the very beginning you have to focus on the new connections part and not the 90% part, so it isn't ideal but it gets better over time. So these are my key takeaways from comprehensiible input theory: - A good source is understandable, even something as simple as one word at a time, or 1 word + 1 picture kind of thing. - Understand that input, not output or recall is the thing to focus on. Yes, start output when it feels natural, but it is more valuable to hear a word 10 times in different contexts than memorize and repeat it 10 times. - The more interesting the source, the more effective your connections will be. - My experience is that having a lot of different connections in your mind that link back to the same word is what makes it natural language. So something like flashcards builds one connection strongly, leaving me being able to easily translate the word but not necessarily use it as natural language. If I were in your shoes, I would try the super-beginner playlist over at dreaming spanish. I didn't discover this when I needed it, but I have heard lots of people say they used it effectively. I would set a 30 minute timer and glue my eyes to it, clockwork-orange style, and do that until I logged 10 hours or so.. then evaluate. If you do that, please let me know how it goes. As a fallback, and people might argue this, but I think Duolingo actually fits some charactaristics of comprehensible input as well. It is how I got out of my own chicken and egg situation. It makes things understandable, it gives you lots of practice on the vocabulary it builds using spaced repetition, and it includes listening. I feel confident saying that anyone that gets through the first 4 sections there will be able to read very basic spanish. Having said that... the number of hours spent to get to that level was insane and there has to be some better way. Anyway, book complete, hope some of that helps!
@@filjumpedinThank you so much for such a comprehensive response, and the time it must have taken to write it. It’s great to know that I am not mad. I consistently hear people praising the value of Comprehensible input, but not seeing it working for me. I’ll check out the Dreaming Spanish you suggested. I’m also toying with the idea of picking up, a basic course for children covering that, and then to try coming back to CI. Anyway, thanks for the steer, I’ll do my best to come back to you, in the future to let you know how it all goes.
@@El_Soldado Hey, I just noticed this. Thank you for asking. Mi español es bien. LoL, the method of learning from stories is ok. I’ve found a couple of really good ones on TH-cam. Along side that, I have watch a couple of shows like Modern Family in English with Spanish subtitles. I’m finding that comprehension of what I am reading is really good. The down side to story learning seems to be that I am failing to understand ( I think it should be termed ) grammar so it impacts my ability to construct sentences in my mind. This will impact me later when I want to speak in the language : Let me give you some examples. The story says: la mañana voy a la escuela, later on the story say: para ir a la escuela. I understand, from the story that in both sentences, the protagonist is going to school or doing something to prepare him to go to school, but why have they used Voy as opposed to lr , and vice versa? It feels like my brain is boiling. Or with the sentence ‘ Me gusta mucho la escuela’ why gusta, I’m assuming it’s feminine, and is linked to the ‘la escuela’ being feminine but if so, why have they used mucho, and not mucha ( people say muchas gracias). The problem may be that I am reading random simple stories instead of having a structured story approach where advanced material is introduced in a structured manner. It seems there is often not enough repetition, of the masculine and feminine form, for me to see if there is a difference. It took me forever to realise the word su can be used to mean his or hers lol. I’ve seen so many polyglots who have claimed fluency in 30 or 60 days etc. That unfortunately won’t be my story. I often get thrown by things such as the use of the word como for both what and how, or the use of the word sí to mean if, or the liberal scattering of the word qué, where it seems to serve no real purpose. ( To be fair, I often translate a sentence in my mind directly into English eg No es feliz, I translate as No is happy, when I go to say a sentence like that in Spanish i remind myself that, that is what i need to translate back into Spanish) I struggle with words order which seem arbitrary. Spanish iseems to be noun - adjective word order, but in one story for example it spoke about pequeñas animales why? I read this and understood , however replicating this in a spoken sentence would not be something I would have considered. My listening comprehension is really poor, I could have read a story, understand about 80-90% of what I’ve read, listen to the audio, and understand about 10 % of what I have heard, despite the fact that I have just read and understood most of the story. I have noticed though , I am developing a sort of sixth sense for what feels right, like when muy should be used instead of mucho or para as opposed to por, that’s fun for me. I’ve just begun to use Duolingo again to supplement, it helps a little. So in short: reading comprehension - pretty good. My speaking ability - non existent, My listening comprehension pretty poor. I’m still enjoying, but feel like I’m not making progress as I would like.
Watch interesting videos or songs in the language you want to learn and try to participate by interacting. Learning a new language requires immersion, just like learning any other skill: understanding and practicing.
+1 I believe it. I've found just being in a country does very little on its own. I've been in places that speak Spanish for probably two years of my life, and I used to think that I would just magically pick up the language after awhile, but that didn't happen. I've been getting better over the last few months, but that is because I started to really focus on learning instead of just waiting for it.
In a sense of your not enjoying it your not gonna learn. No wonder immersion is a thing. I am a Japanese language learner & trying to find the best way to learn especially since I suffer from mental illness which effects my Brain.
CI is such tiresome nonsense. "Learning happens when messages are understood" therefore any tool that enables understanding is a part of CI. Listening, grammar drills, stories, etc. CI in practice seems to be just cherry picking whatever works and then calling it "CI".
Your statement doesn’t stand up to analysis because without an explanation it cannot be considered valid. Stephen Krashen’s theories have evolved into well-established facts in the realm of language acquisition, and facts, by their nature, are not subject to mere analysis-they are foundational truths. If these principles don’t align with your analysis, it suggests a fundamental misunderstanding or misuse of the term ‘analysis.’ Krashen’s work is supported by decades of rigorous research and practical application, making it a cornerstone of modern language education. Perhaps it would be more productive to deepen your understanding of these concepts before attempting to critique them. Especially without any explanation to back up your statement.
@@olelokanaka What a load of nonsense. Part of the problem is the lack of rigour in his theory. He can’t define what he means by something learnt explicitly (or learnt) and something learnt implicitly (or acquired). He cannot explain how we can distinguish between words and grammar learnt in each manner. His affective filter is little more than a statement of the blindingly obvious. As for comprehensible input, and the statement that a student learns with CI, that is bunk. Firstly the concept of i+1 is undefined. Secondly for a student at a given stage of learning, they cannot in practice find suitable CI. Input will either be too trivial, or highly incomprehensible. When I try to find CI in German at B1 level, I can’t find any that is let’s say 90% comprehensible, unless I go to really trivial stuff that is essentially rehashing existing lessons and I make no progress. If I want to find CI that allows me to broaden my vocabulary in an effective manner, I can’t find any. In practice I have to take input that is at least 50% incomprehensible. I then look up words, look up grammar, and figure out what the input means. I see maybe 40% that I knew before, and that acts as revision. I then reread or relisten, and gradually get used to the new concepts. Next I move to more input, which again is maybe 50% comprehensible. But it contains some words from the previous input, some words I knew before, and some new words. And so on. The idea that I can find some mythical idealised i+1 input is just that, a myth. Krashen’s theory is a fairy tale. And when we look at how famous polyglots actually learn a second language, we see that their methods (they all,use different methods) just don’t fit the Krashen theory.
@@StillAliveAndKicking_ all you are doing is repeating what Krashen critics spew because his work is blindingly obvious and then putting up numbers from your personal experience with language learning.
It's exactly what has happened with me, I'm able to speak English due to the fact that I'm able to understand what is saying to me in English. My brain gets used to the language, the rhythm of the language, the sounds of the language and i ended up learning to speak it and getting my message across using the English language. I'm a native Portuguese speaker, the only thing I can say about Stephen krashen's comprehensible input hypothesis is, he's absolutely correct. You acquire a language when you expose yourself in any language. I've never studied English grammar, never. I acquire it reading and listening to.
Brazilian guy? Quanto tempo vc demorou estou nessa estrada faz alguns meses parece que vai demorar anos e anos pra ficar fluente, em que momento vc começou o output?
'I acquire it reading and listening to.'
"Listening" is an intransitive verb, and so 'listening to' requires an object.
In English we would say ''I acquire it by reading and listening to input.'
' You acquire a language when you expose yourself in any language'
'Expose yourself to any language'.
' expose yourself' by itself means you are appearing naked in public.
@@stevencarr4002 English is your second language, right?
@@renehb1741 Correct. My first language is Geordie. I'm a Geordie me.
I was pointin oot where the gadgie had gaan wrang.
I started from absolute zero by immersing into huge amount of written daily communication since 2008 (I listened separately every new word while reading and responding messages). In 2 years I went to study to be a translator. I had studied with a tutor only one year in 2009 and we used some textbooks. I have never used English textbooks ever since and one year before that. I just occasionally read and rearead Grammar books. I worked as a translator and interpreter for a few years. Since 2016 I've been teaching English. In 2019 I started listening English every day for hours on TH-cam. I adore it.
I've been living in Ecuador for the past two years and I too have had a similar experience with Spanish,. I can engage in basic conversations in stores, airports and taxis but still find it impossible to engage in any meaningful conversation. What I found very useful though is I downloaded a favorite book with its Spanish version, "Cien Anos de Soledad" by Marquez, write out each paragraph, double-spaced, then write in what I think it says, and then write out the English version and compare and learn. It works wonders because you learn the actual way they communicate, sometime with words and phrases that defy direct word for word translation, like metaphors, similes, and cultural references.
Yeah, I've got one of those too! The dual language books are pretty awesome.
It's also a really important thing that you pointed out, that not everything has a direct translation.
One tip about listening: if you wait till if feels comprehensible, it never will. You need to listen a lot to be able start to follow along effectively. At first it will sound incomprehensible and thats ok. You brain just needs to adjust to the sounds. Then it will sound like words, then it will sound like sentences, and finally it will start to sound like meaning.
Yes, totally, this is how I learned English 😊
Hello and Thanks from Belarus 🇧🇾
Awesome! And hello Belarus!
My grad school roommate was from Romania, and in just 5 years after moving to the US she could speak and write English much better than most native speakers. When I remarked on her excellent language learning ability, she revealed her secret weapon: watching movies and TV shows in English with English subtitles. And watching lots; usually a couple hours every evening.
Unfortunately, as I've attempted to do this with Spanish I'm discovering that the subtitles frequently don't match the spoken words. It's as if whoever typed the subtitles had simply translated the English script, without paying attention to how the words and phrases had been changed by the voice actors to better match the lip movements on screen and the actual rhythm of natural spoken Spanish. So it can be frustrating, but I suppose it's still helpful.
I've tried to use Spanish TED talks as another method, because the subtitles on those are usually exact transcripts of what is being spoken. But unfortunately those talks are often not engaging enough to keep me focused.
That's weird, I haven't noticed such an issue (of course I'd notice less because I use spanish subtitles less as I am spanish, although sometimes I do use them). For the sake of trying to help: Have you tried using a different source of content that's still engaging to you? Are you using big name sources for your content? Like Netflix, HBO and such, I mean. Sorry that you're facing this challenge!
Using a chatbot to receive interesting practice text at appropriate levels is a great idea! Thanks for that nugget of gold.
I've been using it a ton. In fact, enough people asked about it that I just finished a new video that will go live tomorrow morning that just shows what I do.
Krashen is 100% right. I can feel it intuitively. The problem is that we as non native speakers lack the environment every native speaker of their language has when they grow up. That environment just encourages kids to acquire language. It is highly emotionally comfortable. Methods based on analysing are harmful. They create anxiety and turn it into a habit that will get stiff and really hard to get rid of in the future
I started with reading to gain vocabulary and after that I began to listen to radio programs like the voice of America special English show. I got to a good level of English where I could understand simple stories told slowly. After a few years I decided to watch, read and listen to most things in English. I'm still learning new words but now with way less effort. Obviously I can't talk or use all the words and phrases that I understand but I'm comfortable with almost any kind of topic I watch or listen to.
PS: What I never thought was that learning English would help tremendously with learning french 😂 so being a spanish native speaker and knowing English got me like 50% percent of my french 😮 and I mean it seriously like the progress I'm making just by reading and listening to french podcasts is crazy 😊
100% - love this language learning methods, I’m using it to learn Korean
*Reading* has *never* been my favoured input, but rather watching/listening (and eventually mimicking).
For Hebrew, I like watching through the "Shtisel" series - without subtitles.
For Korean, I like to watch episodes of a home and garden show.
However, I was taught colloquial Arabic by *parroting phrases* after the teacher - and those phrases are still in my brain after 30 years!
Stephen Krashen is perfectly correct that if you can read and understand books in , let's say Spanish, then you will learn Spanish. Who knew?
Stephen Krashen introduced his 5 hypotheses about 40 years ago, and 40 years of scientific research on these hypothesis has lead to them being given the status of 'hypotheses'.
Krashen recommends providing large amounts of easy written input, such as graded readers.
Graded readers are superb things. I recommend them. And large amounts of input are necessary to learn a language.
How does Krashen's theory explain the existence of graded readers, when his theories of language acquisition refute the claim that some aspects of grammar and vocabulary are at a different level to other aspects of grammar and vocabulary? In his hypothesis, it's all just messages.
If I am understanding you correctly, here are some things that might get to what you are saying:
The point of the Comprehensible Input hypothesis definitely is not that graded readers are the end-all of Spanish learning.
Krashen talks about them a lot (probably a bit too much), but that is very specifically because reading those is what he is currently doing in his life to improve his Spanish... he tells that story frequently as an example. But he also says that his Spanish is only so-so and that Spanish is not one of his better languages.. so they are good for him. But it is very specific to his level in that language.
And as far as I know he doesn't refute that there are different levels.. kinda the opposite.
Comprehensible input isn't every "message", it is saying that when you immerse in input where you understand 80-90% (N+1) then you are in an optimal place to aquire language. It is also saying that the moments where you understand are when that language gets reinforced in the language center of your brain, as opposed to how your mind stores memorized information and concepts.
If your level is at or near zero, then it's hard to find the right material to satisfy the requirements of good input.
A graded reader isn't comprehensible input to you. It's incomprehensible, and it won't benefit you much to smash your brain against it.
Basically in that case, the closest you can get to N+1 is literally maybe one word and someone pantomiming what that word means(Dreaming Spanish channel), or drawing a picture(Fabulaudit channel), or a cartoon lesson on Duolingo. But at that stage, that is as close as you can get.
But you definitely don't start out at graded readers.
@@filjumpedin Krashen can't ever define what N+1 is.
I'm not saying his hypotheses are wrong.
Just that after 40 years of research, they remain mere hypotheses.
Is Krashen an expert? There was an interview with him about 4 years ago with MattvsJapan, when he was asked about Anki. He said he had never heard of Anki.
Krashen denigrates flashcards as useless, and yet he had never even heard of Anki? What sort of expert is that?
It's true, I mean, there is an argument that the hypotheses form something that meets the criteria for a theory, etc, but that is just mincing words. And a theory isn't a law anyway. I think the truth is that Krashen hit on several core truths about how humans aquire language, as well as what it actually means to aquire language rather than just memorize.
That was 40 years ago. There are definitely things after that expand, adjust, and refine that work to create a more modern understanding... and there are a lot more questions that need to be answered. But I do think that Krashen's work is a solid core understanding to start from.
Having said that, LOL, I do hear you about him being out of touch with things like Anki. Or even in the realm of what exists for comprehensible input, he still talks about graded readers but not about youtube, chatgpt, or other modern sources of input that are more accessible for everyone and plentiful. He's old-school.... probably because he is quite old. :)
Personally I just appreciate the value he brings.
I know there are new ways of doing things, and I'll definitely leverage every advantage I can get. I don't look to him for a how-to learn, but instead a how-to evaluate new tools and what I'm doing at my level.
Anyway, I love your comments. It gives me a lot to think about!
@@filjumpedin I think your summary of the position is excellent, and much better than I could have written.
Great Content! Very good points! Appreciate it, subbed 👍
Very appreciated! As a creator, it is wonderful to hear that I create something worth watching :)
Hi bro, im native in spanish, and advanced in english and portiguese. In fact, its not hard to find content in spanish, theres a plenty of and really good material in quality. 3:17 If you want to, we can recommend each other, books, videos, etc based on our interests
Cool vid! I'm currently trying comprehensible input with Dreaming Spanish and other sources.
Nice! I am a fan of Dreaming Spanish. They really do a great job of putting a lot of beginner friendly stuff out there. Welcome!
TH-cam had plenty of shows in any level.e am learning Spanish and Russian. I watch 10 minutes with English subtitles then go back and watch it with Russia subtitles and then go back in just Russian. I Spanish I now can fist watch in Spanish with no subtitle, although w do slow it dot to 85% speed
Thanks for your insight.
Thanks for watching! I mean, obviously, I can't take much credit. Most of that belongs to Dr. Krashen. He has spent his whole career working on language learning and developing this process. But I do hope my little layer of personal perspective adds something. Thanks for checking it out!
Thanks for making this video. I think its one of the best interpretations and explanations of Krashens work. It has been advocated for years by experts in sla that we move beyond calling his work theories and start calling them facts.
Thanks for that! It really means a lot to me as a creator. What I really wanted to do with the video is sum up his work, and add a little bit of my personal perspective. So hearing you say this makes me think that I accomplished that at least to some degree :)
@@filjumpedin i think the other guys in this thread have learned so implicitly they don't even know it. 😂. What video of dr krashen is that you were showing clips of, the one of him in front of the blackboard? And is it on youtube?
Comprehensible input is the basic method in my learning process, but not the only one. If I only used this method, it would last for donkey's years. I need to speed up the process with some deliberate learning (grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation practice...)
Comprehensible import is the most important part of learning a language but that doesn’t mean that you should discard grammar.
Totally. Even Krashen talks at points how people can benefit from grammar. I understand it as just that he puts the aquisition first. Kinda like we understand our own language, we first learn to speak and understand and that is 95% of what it means to be fluent. Then later add in grammar to see why certain things are correct or not.
@@filjumpedin I totally agree😊
I used to think it was easier for children because they're younger, but lately I've come to believe that while youth is definitely an advantage, the impressive rate that children can acquire a language comes from their learning environment because they're bombarded with input. People will go out of their way to teach and correct children, and they have a mindset where they don't question rules that don't align with their existing logic sometimes. They just absorb and repeat.
As someone who's trying to learn japanese, that was a hurtle I had to pass, because the rules are at times so different from english that I would compare what I was learning of japanese to my understanding of english and found it frustrating when they didn't match up.
Eventually I realized that language is less like math and more like a puzzle. Instead of trying to compare things 1 for 1, I should just be trying to aquire the image of what's being said to me with the pieces that I'm given. That shift in mindset, and the belief that acquiring a language is a natural human thing and that anyone can do it with enough input has really helped me get over the belief that I'm not going to be able to learn because I'm not that young anymore.
Great video man
I'm sick of that video, sick video man, sick video
Go someplace else fool
I want to agree with this as clearly he has researched a lot. BUT, I don’t agree with certain things and he speaks in absolutes. Regarding making students speak being a cause of “considerable anxiety” certainly isn’t true for me. I cant wait to start speaking and using the little knowledge I know. A lot of people say they can understand but not speak a language - that’s because they need more speaking practice. Therefore it is a skill which should be practiced. Clearly comprehensible input works, I am not doubting that. But if you want to get better at speaking - Speak! And if you enjoy it then do it. If someone said to me they need to improve their speaking ability I wouldn’t tell them to get more comprehensible input.
Also, at the very beginner level of any language, it is soooo difficult trying to get ‘compelling’, ‘interesting’ and ‘engaging’ input - it’s almost impossible. You have to study some basics first. If you don’t it is going to take you a lot longer until you get to the stage where you can enjoy content.
schools: students haven't acquired language, we better spend more hours on explicit instruction and drop subjects with interesting reading material. Also schools: why are test scores getting worse?!
It’s interesting how AI researchers have come to the same conclusion. The large language models that are in vogue right now train on vast amounts of data. The get giant amounts of input. At first, they are wildly unreliable but with enough time and input, they come out with pretty good things.
It’s the same with chess. You need thousands of games and the best have a feeling that something is not correct. You don’t just memorize 1000 chess rules and become a GM. You must play tens of thousands of games.
But back to AI, it was originally thought that a simple dictionary and maybe 1000 grammar rules could easily translate anything. But a word doesn’t equal another word. So strengthening that link thousands of time doesn’t do much. Rather, a web of links generated by thousands or millions of examples is what works.
What a great video, sub, and like ❤❤❤
The thing I do is always reading the Wikipedia in another language other than mine, preferably German or Russian. It's hard to think of another source with so much variety as Wikipedia, plus it has plenty of info about the specific cultures using that language. If the language still is hard to me, I use pop up dictionaries as a kind of walking stick. I owe much to Wikipedia.
I agree totally with your point about, how do you find compelling and engaging input when, as a beginer, you're unlikely to find anything that fits the CI definition? A video about how you use to get ChatGPT to design you stories would be very interesting.
That is great to hear because I've been mulling over whether I should do something like that over the last few days. Now that I know there is an interest, I'll get to work on it :)
Oh hey, I also just checked out your channel. You've got some great stuff on there!
@@filjumpedin Gracias amigo. It's a tad random but mainly to support the Spanish conversation practice group I run on Zoom.
@@filjumpedin Have you come across Refold? It's a methodology which incorporates the idea of lot's of listening but not necessarily "comprehensible" input and it pretty much ignores all of Krashen's other ideas. My way of seeing it is that Refold is "learn like a grown-up" and Krashen's (cluster of ideas) is "learn like a baby." If you have the time and patience to learn that way - all good! I don't!
comprehensible input. i could use some of that
I want to listen to him.
Never a truer word spoken
The only way? There's lots of ways to do things
I don't think you quite get it. Do babies learn language by their parents shoving a grammar book in their face and teaching them grammar rules? No. They learn, or acquire language only through input, which is what they hear, then they output what they hear. When they get older, they input through reading and output through writing. It's how you learned your native language, and you can't tell me it isn't.
If anyone out there can help, I’d appreciate it. I’m struggling with this concept of comprehensible input. I’m reading so very basic Spanish, some of it makes sense to me only because I tried previously learning Spanish, so seeing those words, help me contextualise and understand some thoughts. There is still masses of information which I still can’t get my head around. I’ve re-read the material countless times and nothing. Have I misunderstood the idea of Comprehensible input?
If I was learning from scratch knowing, no Spanish words, no grammar, re-reading the passage or a video story wouldn’t improve my knowledge it hasn’t so far with the words I am not familiar with. Any helpful thoughts will be appreciated, am I just doing wrong. My thoughts now are, I should learn the sounds of the alphabet and vowels, learn 1000 most popular words, then complete a video course whist studying stories for the comprehensible input part. This seems to go against what Comprehensible Input is about is that the case?
I'm glad you asked this, because what you wrote could have perfectly describe me a few months ago. So I'm gonna dump a book on you here.
This is what has been working for me. Bear in mind, this is just me and my experience, so take it all with a grain of salt.
First off, repeating the same things over and over is definitely not the way to go. I did that too. And it sucks. Just, no.
The biggest misconception that I see is that "comprehensible input" just means "any input".
It doesn't. If you aren't understanding 80-90% of it, or aren't interested in it. Then it isn't really comprehensible input.
The hardest part about the whole thing is that it leaves the early beginner with a chicken and egg problem. How do you understand 80% of anything when you have nothing?
So you have to find something, anything really, that starts making things understandable AND interesting to you.
The way to think about comprehensible input is as an ideal, not really a method. Every method for learning actually contains some degree of "comprehensible input". It has to or it doesn't work at all.
The question is: how effective will this be for aquisition?
Because the real key here is aquisition, that magical point where you go from just being able to define a word to using it naturally.. that is what is created by comprehensible input. And that isn't the same as memorization.
Ideal input is where you are making new connections to things you already know 90% of the time, with some new words getting added here and there. In the very beginning you have to focus on the new connections part and not the 90% part, so it isn't ideal but it gets better over time.
So these are my key takeaways from comprehensiible input theory:
- A good source is understandable, even something as simple as one word at a time, or 1 word + 1 picture kind of thing.
- Understand that input, not output or recall is the thing to focus on. Yes, start output when it feels natural, but it is more valuable to hear a word 10 times in different contexts than memorize and repeat it 10 times.
- The more interesting the source, the more effective your connections will be.
- My experience is that having a lot of different connections in your mind that link back to the same word is what makes it natural language. So something like flashcards builds one connection strongly, leaving me being able to easily translate the word but not necessarily use it as natural language.
If I were in your shoes, I would try the super-beginner playlist over at dreaming spanish.
I didn't discover this when I needed it, but I have heard lots of people say they used it effectively.
I would set a 30 minute timer and glue my eyes to it, clockwork-orange style, and do that until I logged 10 hours or so.. then evaluate.
If you do that, please let me know how it goes.
As a fallback, and people might argue this, but I think Duolingo actually fits some charactaristics of comprehensible input as well. It is how I got out of my own chicken and egg situation.
It makes things understandable, it gives you lots of practice on the vocabulary it builds using spaced repetition, and it includes listening. I feel confident saying that anyone that gets through the first 4 sections there will be able to read very basic spanish.
Having said that... the number of hours spent to get to that level was insane and there has to be some better way.
Anyway, book complete, hope some of that helps!
@@filjumpedinThank you so much for such a comprehensive response, and the time it must have taken to write it. It’s great to know that I am not mad. I consistently hear people praising the value of Comprehensible input, but not seeing it working for me. I’ll check out the Dreaming Spanish you suggested. I’m also toying with the idea of picking up, a basic course for children covering that, and then to try coming back to CI.
Anyway, thanks for the steer, I’ll do my best to come back to you, in the future to let you know how it all goes.
@@drewchai2784 ¿Como es tu español en 4 semanas pasadas?
@@El_Soldado Hey, I just noticed this. Thank you for asking. Mi español es bien. LoL, the method of learning from stories is ok. I’ve found a couple of really good ones on TH-cam. Along side that, I have watch a couple of shows like Modern Family in English with Spanish subtitles.
I’m finding that comprehension of what I am reading is really good. The down side to story learning seems to be that I am failing to understand ( I think it should be termed ) grammar so it impacts my ability to construct sentences in my mind. This will impact me later when I want to speak in the language : Let me give you some examples.
The story says: la mañana voy a la escuela, later on the story say: para ir a la escuela. I understand, from the story that in both sentences, the protagonist is going to school or doing something to prepare him to go to school, but why have they used Voy as opposed to lr , and vice versa? It feels like my brain is boiling. Or with the sentence ‘ Me gusta mucho la escuela’ why gusta, I’m assuming it’s feminine, and is linked to the ‘la escuela’ being feminine but if so, why have they used mucho, and not mucha ( people say muchas gracias).
The problem may be that I am reading random simple stories instead of having a structured story approach where advanced material is introduced in a structured manner. It seems there is often not enough repetition, of the masculine and feminine form, for me to see if there is a difference. It took me forever to realise the word su can be used to mean his or hers lol.
I’ve seen so many polyglots who have claimed fluency in 30 or 60 days etc. That unfortunately won’t be my story.
I often get thrown by things such as the use of the word como for both what and how, or the use of the word sí to mean if, or the liberal scattering of the word qué, where it seems to serve no real purpose. ( To be fair, I often translate a sentence in my mind directly into English eg No es feliz, I translate as No is happy, when I go to say a sentence like that in Spanish i remind myself that, that is what i need to translate back into Spanish)
I struggle with words order which seem arbitrary. Spanish iseems to be noun - adjective word order, but in one story for example it spoke about pequeñas animales why? I read this and understood , however replicating this in a spoken sentence would not be something I would have considered.
My listening comprehension is really poor, I could have read a story, understand about 80-90% of what I’ve read, listen to the audio, and understand about 10 % of what I have heard, despite the fact that I have just read and understood most of the story.
I have noticed though , I am developing a sort of sixth sense for what feels right, like when muy should be used instead of mucho or para as opposed to por, that’s fun for me.
I’ve just begun to use Duolingo again to supplement, it helps a little.
So in short: reading comprehension - pretty good. My speaking ability - non existent, My listening comprehension pretty poor. I’m still enjoying, but feel like I’m not making progress as I would like.
Hey teacher,can I practice?
Watch interesting videos or songs in the language you want to learn and try to participate by interacting. Learning a new language requires immersion, just like learning any other skill: understanding and practicing.
@@vastoaspecto I mean practice with someone
Yes? I've been thinking about uploading some practice sessions. Not sure if that is what you mean though :)
See even though I made some deliberate mistakes you still understood me right?
3:00 Dreaming Spanish works good for me. Don't you know it?
I’ve been living in Japan for nearly three decades and am still far from fluent.
+1 I believe it. I've found just being in a country does very little on its own. I've been in places that speak Spanish for probably two years of my life, and I used to think that I would just magically pick up the language after awhile, but that didn't happen. I've been getting better over the last few months, but that is because I started to really focus on learning instead of just waiting for it.
In a sense of your not enjoying it your not gonna learn. No wonder immersion is a thing. I am a Japanese language learner & trying to find the best way to learn especially since I suffer from mental illness which effects my Brain.
❤❤❤❤
CI is such tiresome nonsense. "Learning happens when messages are understood" therefore any tool that enables understanding is a part of CI. Listening, grammar drills, stories, etc.
CI in practice seems to be just cherry picking whatever works and then calling it "CI".
Stephen Krashen’s theories don’t stand up to analysis.
Your statement doesn’t stand up to analysis because without an explanation it cannot be considered valid. Stephen Krashen’s theories have evolved into well-established facts in the realm of language acquisition, and facts, by their nature, are not subject to mere analysis-they are foundational truths. If these principles don’t align with your analysis, it suggests a fundamental misunderstanding or misuse of the term ‘analysis.’ Krashen’s work is supported by decades of rigorous research and practical application, making it a cornerstone of modern language education. Perhaps it would be more productive to deepen your understanding of these concepts before attempting to critique them. Especially without any explanation to back up your statement.
@@olelokanaka What a load of nonsense. Part of the problem is the lack of rigour in his theory. He can’t define what he means by something learnt explicitly (or learnt) and something learnt implicitly (or acquired). He cannot explain how we can distinguish between words and grammar learnt in each manner. His affective filter is little more than a statement of the blindingly obvious. As for comprehensible input, and the statement that a student learns with CI, that is bunk. Firstly the concept of i+1 is undefined. Secondly for a student at a given stage of learning, they cannot in practice find suitable CI. Input will either be too trivial, or highly incomprehensible. When I try to find CI in German at B1 level, I can’t find any that is let’s say 90% comprehensible, unless I go to really trivial stuff that is essentially rehashing existing lessons and I make no progress. If I want to find CI that allows me to broaden my vocabulary in an effective manner, I can’t find any. In practice I have to take input that is at least 50% incomprehensible. I then look up words, look up grammar, and figure out what the input means. I see maybe 40% that I knew before, and that acts as revision. I then reread or relisten, and gradually get used to the new concepts. Next I move to more input, which again is maybe 50% comprehensible. But it contains some words from the previous input, some words I knew before, and some new words. And so on. The idea that I can find some mythical idealised i+1 input is just that, a myth. Krashen’s theory is a fairy tale. And when we look at how famous polyglots actually learn a second language, we see that their methods (they all,use different methods) just don’t fit the Krashen theory.
@@olelokanaka And you should know that his theory is best described as contentious.
@@StillAliveAndKicking_ all you are doing is repeating what Krashen critics spew because his work is blindingly obvious and then putting up numbers from your personal experience with language learning.
@@StillAliveAndKicking_ true except the “best” part.