3. The Apocalypse in the Third and Fourth Centuries
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- By the beginning of the third century, the chiliastic views that dominated earlier Christian thought had begun to wane, being replaced by a vision that expected a much longer course of Christian history and growth. The idea was brought to its most sweeping expression by the great Christian thinker, St. Augustine, whose view of Revelation came to dominate the middle ages well past the time of Thomas Aquinas. In the spirit of Augustine's understand, vast numbers of Christian missionaries carried the gospel to the barbarian tribes surrounding Europe, and in time the effects of Christian influence began to be felt. For more free resources, please visit www.brucegore.com.
This is so good I've been watching an entire day w/o stop..addicted.
Me too 😁
You should get a job
@@sloansizzle4023
It's my day off Sloan. And for your FYI kid because you sound like you know so much but you don't know crap. I Started working at the age of 10 years old in the fields because my parents were migrant workers. I was the only kid in elementary School you could say they were buying your own supplies.
@@marysanchez2981God Bless and keep you and your family ✝️
@@tylerkessler4021
I pray for God's protection over you and yours. May God's provision and providencce lead you all your life. May the peace and joy and hope of God give you strength and fill you like a waterfall.
Sir, I am captivated with your teachings, and knowledge of these historical events. Please, by all means, do continue!
And thank you 😱
Thanks for the kind feedback and the encouragement!
I studied church history in college and so I enjoy reviewing and learning more about early and later Christian thinking through Revelation. Thank you.
Miriam Kling Thank you!
@@GoreBrucedo you have any material on Daniel 12. Full preterism is utter foolishness but that is the one passage that I am still tryna hammer out the details of to get confident because I am heavily convinced of partial preterism but sadly I see people can slide into full. I really have benefitted from your Biblical and historic teaching. Thank you brother!!
@@N81999 Please email me at bruce@brucegore.com, and I'll provide some material you may find helpful.
@@GoreBruce my email isnt showing that I emailed you but I did. We will see if it works. Thank you so much!
@@N81999 Try again, my internet was down this morning.
Thank You so much for these priceless lectures. I have learned so much by listening to you. My love for the Word of God and christians has deepened tremendously.
May the Lord bless you and your family.
I am grateful beyond words for such kind encouragement! Blessing to you and yours as well.
... and i do mean PRICELESS!
Hi brother Bruce. I m a 16 year old guy from India. Your lectures are great.Thank you
I am delighted to hear from you! Blessings!
Thank you and praise the Lord for this ministry. I love the way you open the truth in the book of Revelation. It enlightens my heart. Soli Deo Gloria!
Bruce Gore… your teaching is perfectly balanced. Thank you for the blessings
These presentations are excellent. So refreshing to hear someone who has done their research.
Ive been a hardcore dispensationalist since I came to Christ 16 years ago. These lectures have forced me to rethink my position. The Jewish expectation concerning the kingdom and the force of that pressure on the eschatology of the early church makes a whole lot of sense to me and is a powerful argument for why later church fathers would rethink that position. Its alot to consider. At any rate think you for this thoughtful and learned series of lectures.
Thanks for that. Don't believe anything because I say it, but believe everything that you are sure Jesus had said!
42:17 The Church believing that if we just go in to the world with the gospel and grace, the Church-The Body of Christ- will win, and is content with that. What a concept vs Scaring non-believers in to the Kingdom with the "Left Behind" series strapped to its back.
One Body I certainly agree! Thanks!
Premillenialism is a doctrine held by those who have a fatalistic/hopeless frame of mind. Try to confront them on this and they will deny it. It's popularity in the USA is no accident- the country is polarized, with some speaking openly about the "coming civil war."
@@weeperman6659 I once spoke to a married couple who were hard core MacArthur attendees. Somehow we got on the topic of eschatology and they asked me why I disagreed with Premillennialism. My answer was because the view seems to prop up the idea that the gates of hell will prevail against the church and it will get so bad that God will have to pull us out of the world in some alleged rapture. It really is a doctrine of being defeated and the church failing at the great commission. Obviously they disagreed with my analysis but could not point to anything within their doctrine to refute what I stated.
I’d rather scare them with the Law and their utter failure to keep it, yet the need to keep it-etched in every man’s conscience. The Law is the greatest evangelistic tool ever “invented” 🙂
Thank you that was very interesting. I’m going to follow all your other lectures in this series. Have watched 1-3 so far.
Thank you!
What a great lecture
Great news revealed here with appreciation
Love the teaching & love the intro & outro instrumentals too! …ya know?🤭
If the Bible and biblical works are so difficult to decipher how are ppl with limited knowledge, scholarship, and limited means also are supposed to attain the "full knowledge" of Christ? I thoroughly enjoy listening to your biblical exposes and historical accounts. You are very gifted and possibly are "come to the kingdom for such a time as this." I had trouble understanding Revelation, I have read it since childhood and heard it explained in ways that did not ring plausible to me. Your explanations seem to ring truer to the timing and the textual inferences in Daniel. But are you saying that we shouldn't hope and pray for the return of Jesus? That would be very disappointing. Thank you so much, I hope to meet you in New Jerusalem?
Thank you for the feedback. I am fully committed to the classical affirmation of Christian people that Christ now 'sits at the right hand of God from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead.' I will treat the matter of the Second Coming when we reach chapter 20 of Revelation if you are interested.
You’re doing exactly what people such as you described SHOULD be doing. Congratulations!🙏✝️
How can non-believers study preterism and continue to be non-believers?
Great question
Thank you so much man of God for the clear teachings
John 2:20 says it took 46 years to build the temple. That's pretty close to the 7 weeks (7×7).
Interesting observation.
Bravo! I thoroughly enjoyed this, as always. Thank you.
Thank you!
!!!!!FANTASTIC PRESENTATION!!!!!
Thank you!!
It seems to me that Clement when he says "the death of the tyrant" could be refering to Domitian just as easily as Nero. It doesn't seem to definitively indicate an earlier date.
Yeah but Nero was more notorious tyrant in terms of his evil. Even after Nero died he was still remembered as a monster. Domitian was more of a wannabe Nero,he was cruel but his persecution were not as severe as Nero's. Hence Nero is a better fit.
Nero was himself a monster individual. Domitian ran a bureaucratic system and it is believed several officials ramped up persecutions for political reasons
@@James-nq8eh Pliny, a prosecutor under Domitian, in his discussion with Trajan stated that he had never witnessed a trial of Christians. His purpose in this discussion was to ask Trajan how to conduct such a trial. If Domitian's persecution of Christians had been more pronounced, then Pliny certainly would have been more familiar with such trials.
Hi Pastor Bruce. at 8:39 you make mention that the 70 weeks in Daniel 9 are actually 70 weeks of years, 490 years, or each week = 1 year. How did you get there? Is it the time from Darius (522BC) to Christ's crucifixion, or Artaxerxes to the Crucifixion? I'm trying to find references in scripture (even implicit), or anecdotes to reconcile that and am having a little trouble. Thank you for your work it's outstanding! God Bless.
Thank you for your good question. Daniel 9:25 refers to the order to rebuild Jerusalem, especially its wall and streets. This appears to refer to the ministry of Nehemiah, who rebuilt the wall and the general infrastructure of Jerusalem under the reign of Artaxerxes (465 - 423 b.c.). 490 years from his reign brings us generally to the time of Messiah. An excellent scholarly review of the interaction between Persia and biblical history may be found in a volume by Edwin M. Yamauchi: www.amazon.com/Persia-Bible-Edwin-M-Yamauchi/dp/0801021081/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1493476568&sr=8-1&keywords=yamauchi+persia+and+the+bible
Bruce Gore thank you so much. I'll do some homework.
@@onebody6273 Daniel 9 says 70 weeks. That is to say 70 times 7, which is 490.
So grateful 🙏🙏🙏
Thank you!
I learned that Clement of Alexandria is the first preterist! He tied DANIEL and Matthew 24 together not Revelation
...Clement and Augustin were correct!
God bless you Dr. Gore.
Thank you!
Sir, the caricature of Augustin looks like it could be of you. If so it is very apt.
Thank you very much for the teachings! Wonderful! Many blessings!
+MrPvdb Thank you very much!
+Bruce Gore Hi I am a pastor and would like to contact you by mail. Would that be possible?
+MrPvdb You may contact me by e-mail at bruce@brucegore.com. If you meant 'snail-mail,' I receive mail c/o First Presbyterian Church, 318 S. Cedar, Spokane, 99204. Thanks!
Mr. Gore, love your lectures; however, you refer several times to 'Israel'. May I ask, aren't you really referring specifically to Judea and Jerusalem ?
I hope you cover St. Irenaeus in much greater detail. His works against the Gnostics (Against Heresies) and agitation to certify the Canon once and for all that led to the Council of Carthage 397 AD. Until this Council there was no legal reason to ban the Gnostic Gospels. The Gospels of Phillip, Thomas, and Judas Iscariot would otherwise and arguably acceptable without an official condemnation.
Interesting hypothesis, not strongly supported by the historical record as found in the Muritorian Canon (c. 170 a.d.), the canon evidence found in Eusebius (c. 320), etc. The Council of Carthage was some 200 years after Irenaeus early work, and a great deal of discussion took place over that 200 years that hardly gives much support to the proposition that the church would have embraced any of the Gnostic materials circulating so widely. Thanks for your interest.
What about the last part of Revelation 20:3 "...and after that he [Satan] must be loosened a little season." Does this imply there will still be some sort of final rebellion before Christ returns for the final judgment?
That would be the common view. I plan to treat the matter in some detail in this series when we reach Revelation 20.
I just love your classes... even tho I am not attending college now. How did Christianity managed to survive before Constantine approved i?
By the grace of God!
Using the Partial Preterist view how does that position look at all of Revelation. I understand Mathew 24 but what about the rest. What teachings do you have on that please , books?
Augustine maintained the tribe of Dan theory, and I think Joachim of Fiore did aswell
Jesus is the Holy of holies the living tabernacle of Yahwe among us.
I wonder if Sir Bruce also has a series on 1 Timothy.
An audio series is available on TH-cam on all of Paul's letters, including 1 Timothy.
th-cam.com/video/u1jCirwZja8/w-d-xo.html
God bless you, sir. I have independently formed most of my theology with prayer, life experience and scripture, and thought myself to be alone in most of it.
I had no idea that my thinking was supported by church history, namely "Augustin." Your presentation of church history is the clearest I've seen. How did we get so confused in our eschatology?!
Interested in following your work.
Thank you!
Daniel 9:26 -27 So poorly translated....the 70 weeks are divided into 3 parts 7weeks , 3 score and 2 weeks, then finally the 70th week that is the 1 week....
Gabriel explains 69 weeks pass from Ezra 456 BC to Messiah the Prince ...but here is where all of scholars get lost ..
After 3 score and 2 weeks Messiah is cut off.... he is talking about the 70th week.the"one week " ..that's what comes after the 3 score and 2 weeks but he doesn't call it the one week until explaining Messiah activity in verse 27.
Messiah is cut off is the word Karat...it is the cutting in half of an animal to make a covenant..(GEN 15) So Messiah is slain to make a covenant...and is not is the Hebrew word ayin...this word means to not be found.. Christ the Lord ascended to Heaven so no body no bones to be found ever. Cut off but not for himself is not the meaning of these words.
Then the city falls to ruin and the animal sacrifices continue to be offered by a corrupt Priesthood...this is the abomination that makes desolate .
Vespasian is sent by Nero to destroy Jewish rebellion in Judeah...then he returns to Rome to become Ceaser after death of Nero...Titus the Prince is given authority to put the rebellion down and he lays siege to Jerusalem the fighting is fierce but the Romans prevail until finally the Romans breakthrough into the Sanctuary and the Temple is set on fire..the city is conquered and the survivors are sold into slavery..
Verse 27 then explains the final one week in more detail...remember this occurs immediately after the 3 score and 2 weeks , 26 ADE 483 yrs after Ezra is given permission to return and build Jerusalem in 456 BCE.
WARNING verse 27 is the the same week Messiah is Karat cut off in verse 26...
Verse 27 Gabriel says Makes strong covenant for many ...when? one week.... UNDERSTAND The strong covenant is not 7 yrs but is brought into force in the time of the one week and the term of this covenant is eternal for it is the One Sacrifice made by the Lord Jesus in the midst of that final 70rh week 30 AD...that is the strong covenant made in His blood for the many and it terminates the previous covenant of animal sacrifice and Aarons Priesthood ..but they continue to offer sacrifices that is the abomination that leads to the total desolation of Jerusalem the Temple and Judeah
In the midst of the week causes sacrifice and offering to cease is badly translated
Is in midst of week (3 and a half years ) Sabbath ( not cease) sacrifice ...refers to Passover
Offering ( propitiation)
This is saying in the 70th week Messiah makes strong covenant for many in His blood (3and a half years into the last 7yrs appointed to Israel for the exclusive right to the Kingdom .) This occurs on a Sabbath that is also a Passover and this is the propitiation the gift that appeased the wrath of God against the man who comes to God through the Only Begotten Son...
Overspreading abomination is the the obstinate continuance of the now terminated animal sacrifices. The Chiel Priests and rulers persecute the growing Church they in turn continue to witness to Jesus One offering that made the new covenant and preach the judgement upon the city and the Temple ...then that determined by the Prophets and Christ Himself is poured upon them the end comes as a flood and that decreed is carried out to this day...
is there a resource available for small group study ? these teachings are changing my perspective and desire to know more bible truth !
I would be happy to make some recommendations, if I had a bit more information. Please contact me at bruce@brucegore.com. Thanks!
I enjoyed listening to your series on the Apocalypse. However, there are some errors.
You have wrongly attributed Homily III.XV to Clement of Alexandria. Pope Clement I is supposedly the author of that Homily. Clement of Alexandria claimed that the Apocalypse was written under Domitian (Eusebius - Ecclesiastical History III.23).
Augustine did not believe that the Apocalypse and Olivet discourse had been fulfilled in a preteristic fashion. Instead he taught the continual coming of Christ in the church which is a spiritual concept consistent with his amillennial view (City of God XX.5).
Catena Aurea
Mark 13
Augustine, Epist., 119, 11: All that is said by the three Evangelists concerning the Advent of our Lord, if diligently compared together and examined, will perchance be found to belong to His daily coming in His body, that is, the Church, except those places where that last coming is so promised, as if it were approaching; for instance in the last part of the discourse according to Matthew, the coming itself is clearly expressed, where it is said, “When the Son of Man shall come in His glory,” [Matt 25:31] For what does He refer to in the words, “when ye shall see these things come to pass,” but those things which He has mentioned above, amongst which it is said, “And then ye shall see [p. 268] the Son of Man coming in the clouds.” The end therefore shall not be then, but then it shall be near at hand.
Or are we to say, that not all those things which are mentioned above are to be taken in, but only some of them, that is, leaving out these words, “Then shall ye see the Son of Man coming;” for that shall be the end itself, and not its approach only. But Matthew has declared that it is to be received without exception, saying, “When ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.” That which is said above must therefore be taken thus; “And He shall send His angels, and gather together the elect from the four winds;” that is, He shall collect His elect from the four winds of heaven, which He does in the whole of the last hour, coming in His members as in clouds.
Luke 21
AUG. But when He says, When you shall see these things to come to pass, what can we understand but those things which were mentioned above. But among them we read, And then shall they see the Son of man coming. When therefore this is seen, the kingdom of God is not yet, but nigh at hand. Or must we say that we are not to understand all the things before mentioned, when He says, When you shall see these things, &c. but only some of them; this for example being excepted, And then shall they see the Son of man. But Matthew would plainly have it taken with no exception, for he says, And so you, when you see all these things, among which is the seeing the coming of the Son of man; in order that it may be understood of that coming whereby ***He now comes in His members as in clouds, or in the Church as in a great cloud.***
Augustine saw these things in terms of the continual coming of Christ in the church.
AlanRussellFuller Thank you. Very helpful!
+LXX Researcher Thank you for commenting on my videos. I appreciate it.
It seems I gave the wrong reference. It should be III.XVIII.3
www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.viii.xviii.html
Chapter XVIII.-The Apostle John and the Apocalypse.1. It is said that in this persecution the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word.7132. Irenæus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John,714 speaks as follows concerning him:7153. “If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.”4. To such a degree, indeed, did the teaching of our faith flourish at that time that even those writers who were far from our religion did not hesitate to mention in their histories the persecution and the martyrdoms which took place during it.7165. And they, indeed, accurately indicated the time. For they recorded that in the fifteenth year of Domitian717 Flavia Domitilla, daughter of a sister of Flavius Clement, who at that time was one of the consuls of Rome,718 was exiled with many others to the island of Pontia in consequence of testimony borne to Christ.
I am from a german speaking country and a teacher here says that johns revelation is written abouth 95ac
Yes, that is a common view. I treat the question in some detail later in this series.
@@GoreBruce so many denominations and book writers peopound that date. It destroys coherency of scriptural events.
Too many folk I associate with hold to errant teaching and won't be dissuaded from their comfort zone.
They can spell Congnative dissonance and are proud of their understanding of the grasp of its meaning. Just don't recognise it in themselves. Very sad, considering the wealth of corrective scholarship available on Internet.
that “this generation shall not pass” verse was followed after his analogy of the fig tree. It is to say when that generation (whichever one it will be) sees all these things take place then they shall be the one that will not pass till they be fulfilled. I know your argument is that it was indeed that current generation that saw all those things but the verse is not immediately in support of the preterist view just wanted to add.
Thanks for your thoughts. The view you mention was popularized by Hal Lindsey as the so-called 'fig-tree' generation. It tends to be accepted only by those with a fixed a priori commitment to a futurist perspective of the Olivet Discourse, and is otherwise dismissed as facially inconsistent with the text by virtually all New Testament scholars of any theological stripe.
Matthew 21:33-46
I'd leave the 'e' on poor St. Augustine's name, but pronounce it as you do. This is lovely, of course. As a personal thought (and with all due respect to the beloved Sts. Irenaeus and Jerome) I like to place the date of St. John's Apoc. back a bit further, pre-Nero. Have it 'prophetic' and imagine the pagans and O Vay crowd pointing to it and making fun of it -of course perhaps St. Paul's eyes grew big and he bit his nails as he asked inwardly "I thought we weren't supposed to say.." 🤦♂️ _nevermind, I have the Grace to work with this, thanks a LOT, I'm already in deep with the shackles trying to ...to_ reason _with people but this is just a thorn in my side!"_ (as good a thorn as any!) -because I doubt ANY of em saw what was coming. And also pre-60AD I imagine the Apostle John droped the Gospel of St. John and 💥 *mic drop.*
Then Nero comes in looking a bit weak then gets "a bit testy" real fast. I actually like to think the timing might have Converted a few more O Vays! (I wouldn't be too shocked if a wolf in sheep's clothing got to Irenaeus' writing and changed a few things) but I can get the deets after pulling my term in the Church Militant ( *crosses self* ) (not a Calvin person) and prep for, Deo volente (PLEASE!), the Church Triumphant.
Thanks for the content. Trying to find _any_ content about Ezekiel and the Apoc. (both part of my reading plan) that doesn't mention something insane, literally insane (and heretical) besides City of God audiobook on TH-cam is nearly terrifying. (Eyes pictured all over wheels is one thing, but this "missing week" gap thing theory is beyond my comprehension. I have no idea what most TH-camrs are talking about regarding "the gap". It's disturbing. And they yell! A lot! I just got off a video fast that named today, October 22 2021, as the "Second Coming". It's a month old. "Prophets" 🤦😰 )
Five out of five stars.
Excuse me,I've been going though your series here and I enjoy the information you provide.Do you have a page that I can visit and find more Bible materials? Thanks.
Thanks for the feedback. You are welcome to visit my site at www.brucegore.com.
Thank you very much! I did found your site right after I wrote my first message.I;m going through the book of Revelation on your site.I;m glad I came across your wonderful and informative teachings.Brother Bruce,please pray for me,I'm backslidden.I'm ashamed to say so.I was deported from my beloved country,U.S.I'm leaving in Tijuana,Mexico.All my family is on the other side,and it hurt me deeeply.I love the Lord,but I feel let down.I know it is not His fault but mine.I have to come to grips with my unfortunate ordeal.So please pray for me.
I most certainly will, Luis. Don't give up hope. God has something good planned for you.
Thanks!
Thanks for this, I really enjoy all the historical background you provide, it's so helpful. Just a question, in reference to the commenter who said your Clement quote was from another sourse. Does this mean that all you said about Clement of Alexandria actually applies to this other Clementine literature (which is still early, as I see on the web)? I should just like to know, if I tell others about these early views. Thanks, God bless you.
+Adrian Bury There appears to be some ambiguity as to the source. The best resource I've come across for a scholarly treatment of the matter may be found in Ken Gentry, Before Jerusalem Fell, American Vision, 1998.
So if so many have been looking at their own current events harolding christs soon return are we to assume Christ is NOT coming back at all?
No, we are to assume that 'no man knows the day or the hour.' The task of the Christian is not to obsess over current events as signs of the end, but to diligently labor to build the kingdom that Christ established 2000 years ago. Thanks for your interest!
This is very interesting and informative about the history of the view and opinion of revelation. I do take exception to his description of the era of the rise of the Catholic Church however. He says that it did spread the gospel in it's very questionable way. It did not spread the gospel. It spread a false gospel and called itself a Christian religion. It is the great counterfeit of the true faith. It is what was prophesied in regards to the anti Christ faith being of us but actually against us. Like Judas who was the example of , and actually referred to in the Bible as the man of perdition. The pope is the leader of this fake Christian religion. He is the man of perdition in revelation. The Catholic Church actually persecuted true Christianity. In that way it did help the true gospel. The true gospel is spread at its best when under persecution. The Catholic Church however was always an enemy of the true gospel.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. Your perspective certainly has some truth to it in light of the actions of the Church at a much later time. The time-frame in view here, however, greatly pre-dates any such persecution.
I concur with Mr. Gore’s response. The Roman Catholic Church over a period of time became more and more anti-Christian and pretty much buried themselves with their emphatic statement during the Council of Trent when they anathematized the Gospel of Salvation by grace alone through faith alone.
O Apocalipse foi uma guerra chamada Armagedom. E foi de pedras lançadas por sobre as muralhas de Jerusalém: Apo 16:21 diz isso.
Hello dear! What about st john chrysostom on the book of rvolition
666 likes. Don't worry Bruce I'll give it one more just to be safe :)
Dispensational ""thinkers"" - almost an oxymoron
Q, Mark, L and M are the earliest sources that portray Yahushua as an apocalyptic prophet he and others such as his cousin John the Baptist including Paul believed that judgment day would occur in there lifetimes.
These verses supports Yahushua's claims that he'd return in his lifetime.
Mathew 16:27-28; 34:25-34; 26-63-64
Mark 13:26-30
Luke 21:27-32
The book of John doesn't mention anything about Yahushua's return since this book was written between (if memory serves me correctly?) 80-90 AD many decades after Yahushua's death.
If you are interested in my perspective, I suggest review the following online lecture:
th-cam.com/video/9FAc9Vc4gsE/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for your interest!
abyss definition @ 39:00. thank you.
Paul taught the kingdom of God, but he did not teach the kingdom now.
Paul taught the kingdom of God, but he did not teach that the church usurps Israel’s covenants and promises.
Paul taught the kingdom of God, but he did not preach the gospel of the kingdom. He preached the gospel of the grace of God. They are different.
Paul taught the kingdom of God, but he did not preach the same message as Peter and the twelve. The difference is not found in what is the same.
Paul taught the kingdom of God, but he did not offer David’s earthly kingdom to Israel, nor to Gentiles. The kingdom of God can refer to dominions in heavenly places (Col 1:16).
Paul taught the kingdom of God in the context of the revelation of the mystery of Jesus Christ (Rom 16:25).
We know this because Paul did not only write about the kingdom of God, but also about a mystery of Christ (Eph 3:2-6).
Tertullian recorded that Polycarp had been a disciple of John the Apostle.
Overseer in Smyrna
Is it possible that the thousand years is over and now the dragon is free to decieve the nation's again? Maybe this why atheism is on the rise? Just a thought.
I suppose that is a hypothetical possibility, but our time, compared with the sweep of history, is really not much different. There are always been skeptics, atheists, and critics, and really, our own day is pretty much business as usual in that department. Thanks for your thoughts!
@@GoreBruce I agree with the analysis, but it seems they have a more gripping power with today's generation. But I could be wrong.
Well, certainly, Christianity is currently drying up in Europe, if it hasn't already, and it definitely is starting to decline in America. The religious "nones" are ever increasing. The West is now post Christian.
Eusebius of Caesarea doesn't understand/comprehend much of Revelation because prophecy is only understood after or sometimes even during it's fulfillment. Prophetic interpretation prior to fulfillment is *speculation* Revelation is fulfilled in history, and that is where you will find much of it's fulfillment.
I'm not a 7th day Adventist, but their's is the best understanding of Revelation 13. Reformers; Martin Luther, and John Calvin both identified the papacy as the anti-Christ, and Roman catholicism as the apostate church, so it's not the Adventists that came up with this interpretation/understanding.
George W. Bush (a supposed Protestant, yeah right...), said he saw God in pope Benedict's eyes, and he ran out to the runway to officially greet/welcome him (like a lap dog), when the pope paid a visit. So who's serving who?
Revelation 13 reveals this relationship between the sea beast/Rome and the earth beast/USA Inc clearly. The USA Inc congress has the fasces on either side of it's chamber; these represent the true ruling power: Rome.
Thanks for that. Please note that I treat both the Reformers and 7th Day Adventists later in this series.
What relevance would the Pope and the RCC and the Protestant Reformation have to do with those people who were in one of those seven churches in Asia, living in the first century? We should never forget that this is the audience that this document was specifically written. They were instructed that those events depicted in this book would start to be experienced by them very quickly. The last chapter states to not seal the book up because of its immediacy.
@@larrymcclain8874
I take it you're a preterist, partial or full?
How long have those churches been in existence? Are they still here?
Are the scripture not written for all of the body's edification?
Why do you bother reading any of it if they are only for those to whom they were written?
Don't read the old testament cause hey that was only meant for Israel.
Do you believe everything in the book of Revelation is fulfilled?
So is the Roman Catholic church with it's rituals the true universal church they claim to be? with their continual sacrifice of Messiah & cannibal Eucharist, praying to saints & worship of Mary, confession, absolution & penance on the rosary, the seat of Peter with upside down cross (same as satanic cults) symbolism & a pope who claims to be God under a veil of flesh, wearing garb with as much pagan symbolism as befits any high priest of Baal.
The things in the book did start to take place during the time those churches were in existence. but was certainly not all fulfilled.
You tell me why was the main church at Jerusalem not mentioned? Did Messiah forget His own tribe?
Funny but I'm pretty sure you are wrong about who the letter/book was written to. John sent this letter to the known churches at that time, since Jerusalem was destroyed it wasn't mentioned. Also, don't forget verse 3 unless you disqualify yourself from this blessing, cause hey this wasn't written to you.
I am a member of the body of Christ/church and will not be excluding myself because this letter mentions some earlier churches to whom it was written. Just like many of the letters written to others which make up the new testament & old testament too for that matter.
Do you also exclude yourself from all the other letters in the new testament cause they were written to specific churches?
I hope I do not need to go on berating this argument of yours, cause it really is quite silly as I hope by now you can see.
Besides, the book is very very figurative & symbolic in it's language. Using many references from the old testament also. This book cannot be understood without a thorough understanding of the old testament, it's symbolism, laws, ordinances & practices. But then the author, Jesus Christ is the God of the old as well as the promise fulfilled in the new.
Preterism & futurism both hide the antichrist papacy. Only Christian historicism reveals him and his activities, controlling & building the beast system that is & has been being assembled before your very eyes your entire existence. Some call it conspiracy theories, I just call it easily verifiable facts.
"The last chapter states to not seal the book up because of its immediacy."
This is in reference to Daniel 12:4 sealing up His book which goes hand in hand with the book of Revelation.
That Preterists think this book was fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem & the Temple spoken of in Matthew 24 is mad, Jesus covered all of that there, with very few words. Yet everyone knows of what event in history He spoke. The Need for the book of Revelation would only serve to confuse if all it was talking about was that event.
My last argument is did Israel see all the promises made to them immediately after they were made? Pretty sure the one about delivering them from Egypt took over 400 years & the one in Daniel was 490 years. Shorter one like Joseph made to his brothers & mom & dad happened in their lifetime.
29:53
Antichrist is another obvious point that is, I won’t say surprising, nor troubling as it is really neither, but in part both that any would be confused with what is so clearly and obviously stated…
Christ said in regard specifically to His authority I come in my Father’s name….He could only be speaking to Himself positionaly as the Christ/Messiah and you except me not. When one comes in His own name him you will accept. So logically again He can only be speaking of the coming antichrist positionaly as the anointed king of Israel.
The second reason to think the man could only be a king in Israel comes from Daniels seventieth prophetic week which anyone I have ever spoken to concerning eschatology agrees is the seven year period to come when these things and the man of sin are being dealt with on earth.
Daniel was told seventy weeks are appointed unto YOUR people and YOUR holy city ….I get the enthusiasm people have for insinuating themselves into the coming climatic moment in history; we all like to feel significant. How many books have been written to point to Americas place in end times, after all they sell. It is true that the events will spill over and involve the whole world, but the prophecy makes it clear that the key events and players involved will be in Israel and the antichrist is as central to end times as anyone can be with the only possible exception being Yeshua.
Thirdly there is the Covenant He confirms. That involves two clues the first being the temple sacrifice which is perhaps integral perhaps not but undeniably involved. The Jews do not except that Yeshua was the Messiah to come and as such continue to look forward. The temple sacrifice was until Messiah come. If at the midpoint the antichrist enters the temple declaring he is the one and is accepted as such just as Yeshua said he would be then indeed the sacrifice would cease.
He is not a dictator changing the rules of the covenant half way through; he has been their king now he will also be their god. It is by their acceptance that offend God so completely and also by their enthusiasm of the same they draw in the entire world to be made drunk by the wine of their fornication. What is fortification as it would apply to a people. God said I have been a husband to them.
Finally from me, there are other points but I won't be making them, is the seventh and eighth kings. These where in my estimation a line of secession as scripture says the eighth was of the seven. That is a subtle distinction; if it read of the seventh then we would see what we suspect anyway, that they are somehow one and somehow not, but it says seven. With Jerusalem identified as mystery Babylon and Herod Antipas II the ruling king over that city at that time John wrote, it is my suspicion the antichrist is a direct descendant, but even if I am wrong in that; he is all the same a king ruling over that city and kings don’t make peace treaties with their own people.
The 7 kingdoms 5 have fallen one is. The 5 fallen Egypt Assyria Babylon Persia Greece. The one that is is Rome which continues till this day it wasn't the Ceezers
OK.... continue then.... which kingdom followed Rome and reigned for a short time?
@@ayobithedark2772 It's not here yet but it's the new world order if you want to call it that. It causes the deadly wound to the world political system
@@bluesky6985 that's speculation to the extreme and it's spiritually unhealthy.
Are you basically saying no major empire has existed since Rome?
The wound prophecy works better with the first century Roman emperors, when the empire looks like it's about to fall apart under Nero, and with the year of 4 emperors, but then revives and survives a couple more centuries
@@ayobithedark2772 Go read Daniel.
@@ayobithedark2772 Rome never fell. That is one of the greatest deceptions ever pulled was convincing the world that the Roman and British empires fell
Tertulliuan would have loved Hal Lindsey!