Nifty tip to convert?.... make it a dare! That's how I was converted. My DM gave me a pre-generated dumb,fat kid. Changed the way I thought of character building from then on. "I betcha can't play a flawed character...." Before I knew it Laramie Silver oak had grown into a man and had a lot more heart than any previous character; a ranger with a strong sense of self having had to live with and/or overcome limitations. Call it a challenge a watch
Agreed completely! That's how Scanlon Shorthalt of Critical Role fame came about, and if you've watched his entire arc... let's just say, tears were shed.
That's exactly what I did with my very seasoned (+25 years) players, and watching the evolvement of the characters have so far been amazing now two years in. I can highly recommend this :o)
In my experience, younger players tend to be the "power players" who are mainly interested in min-maxing and older players tend to appreciate the storytelling aspect of the game more.
The first thing you think of when you think of fantasy is the powerful heros. The badasses, and the epic fights where the hero comes through in the end. For many new people this is what they want to get out of the game. Most grow out of it if you allow them to.
@@irontemplar6222 In my opinion the difference between the generations is mostly due to the format of modern video games, and video gamers having an unconscious expectation of that same format in an rpg. The most popular video games like WoW are all about min maxing and the "mechanical" aspects of the game. This is also why video gamers are much more inclined to be "chaotic stupid murder hobos" in rpgs, because that's exactly the type of person you are expected to be in a video game like Grand Theft Auto.
@@BGlasnost ehhh to be honest I don't think it has anything to do with that. The old guard where just as murderhoboy as everyone else. Their is a reason GG came out with consequences for breaking alignment.
@@irontemplar6222 I'm currently DMing a game with a mix of "old guard" and new, and my observations of this group along with others in the past have supported my opinion. The young ones tend to treat d&d like a video game, and the older ones tend to want a more in depth story and rp elements. Maybe I've met a skewed bunch of people that don't fit the norm, but also maybe not.
@@BGlasnost Yes I dont deny that it in general turns out that way. I however reject the theory you put forward that it is in any way a product of this generation. When the old guard was 15-19 years old they were just as murder happy, and gamey in their treatment of D&D as the modern generation is. If not a bit more so. The reason Gary Gaygax has their be such massive penalties for breaking alignment was because their is no atrocities that 16 year old's will not commit if gold, or something else they want is offered.
The Heroes journey is a fantastic tool to apply to every character. And while the template is the same, every story is different and you can't tell the similarities if done right, because the fascination with the story overwhelms the sense of similarity. I love it and I use it regularly. I might forward this to my players and I hope they enjoy the idea. This concept is what helped me understand storytelling both as player and as a DM.
Girthy episode! Great points, PDM! Funny enough, watching this made me realize that my primary antagonist in my campaign is faceless and therefore limiting the story for my PC because they don't know what they're facing off against.
Professor, you have provided some great tools for my tool kit, both as a DM and as a player. Very informative! I added this video to my saves 'RP Dungeon Craft' list. In my youth, I was a tactical hack and slasher. As I got older, I started to really embrace RP - The stage craft, if you will. Cheers!
Holy shit, one of your PCs being in love with the villain?!? I love it You can have one of those "Zuko decision under ba sing se" moments where one of your PCs takes the villains side in a big climactic fight.
I just finished a 5-year campaign this Saturday night. I had asked my PC three questions: who did he love the most? what thing did he love the most? and, what idea did he love the most? These three questions carried me so well through so many questions, situations, dilemmas throughout the campaign. Highly recommended.
Same! If this were a personal conversation we can talk star wars all day long. I'm surprised lord of the rings didn't get spoiled first when discussing the hero's journey..
Just remember, during the interrogations aboard the deathstar, vader did terrible things to his strong willed daughter and she didnt break. Yet you tell your punk ass son you are his father and he cries and jumps to his death.
Funnily enough, my best friend and his brother are the 2 different kinds of players. At first, they were both power players, my friend choosing a barbarian and his brother a rogue. The more their first adventure went on, the more I saw my friend's character move away from the "My goal is to kill everything" to a more of a "I'm an ex soldier and I follow my duty". I still throw his character in from time to time as a passing NPC or patron in a tavern and he agrees that his character is the type of an adventurer that roams the land with his new friends to protect and care for the common people
Someone once took a chance on my Star Wars character application; a Twi'lek slave. My character was brought into the life of intergalactic slavery at a young age, the exact specifics left intentionally vague. Suffice it to say, when the game started, my character was the recent addition to a collection of slaves working for a Hutt on Nar Shaddaa, and was the Hutt's latest favorite. Some mercenaries came through, looking for work, and the Hutt sent them on an assignment, and also sent my character to keep tabs on them, and to report any 'disruptions' the group may cause, or other issues that they may fail to report. Effectively, my character was to make sure that if they screwed anything up, the Hutt would know, and dock pay accordingly, especially if they lied about it. After some success working together, the party was allowed to 'rent' my character to continue helping them off-world, which they did. The job that was taking them off-world was given by a character who did not tolerate weakness, and so taught my character a few tricks about using and concealing a weapon, despite not having much in the way of clothing. With the weapons, there also came a confidence boost, and a greater acceptance of risky behavior. When it came time to actually leave, my character began to throw some weight around, asking the dock crew why our ship hadn't been cleared for departure yet, and to get to it. With the successful expedition of our clearance to leave, the rest of the party started taking on roles within the ship, such as pilot, gunner, navigator, etc... but my character didn't have any such skills. What they did have though was a list of contacts, including the Hutt that owned her, and the NPC who had armed her, and was currently giving them their assignment off-world. As the only one in contact with either individual, that meant relaying information to the rest of the party, and because of that, when the party arrived at the destination, the Twi'lek slave stepped up to deal with the Imperial docking authorities regarding the docking fees, reason for landing, what cargo was on board, etc. While the rest of the party did the illegal work they'd come to do, my character began making arrangements to start up a legitimate ferry business, taking passengers across the system as long as their destination was along the way of our own. This would permit us to make some of our money back during these journeys in order to keep fueled up, as well as maintain the ship, and top off supplies as the need arose, plus turn a small profit. Essentially, after a few months, my character was still by law a slave, but had gone from someone who hid behind others, to walking right up to Imperial officers as the captain of a ship, and leader of a legitimate transportation operation with all of the legal paperwork and authority to do business freely while the rest of the crew took care of the shadier aspect of things.
14:00 I am going to counter your argument in regard's to Denarius Targaryen. She is from the start of her rule, to the end of her rule. A Tyrant, and its her way or the highway (so long as those who walk it a paved with dragon fire) She is no different then any of the previous tyrants the Targaryen's have produced. The only difference is some of the things she tyrants such as her being aginst slavery. We the audience agree with, and I have no shortage of players who have tried to do the same thing in my games. Usually with disasterus consequence's. However she was from start to finish an Evil Tyrant. One who always wanted to get her way, and only occasionally acquiesced to her advisors who held her at bay at times.
My first ever Paladin was suffering a crisis of faith after witnessing the corruption of the church. He broke from under the control of the local bishop which did not go over well and was actually being hunted to be brought back for trial. The rest of the party was not aware of this of course & it made him somewhat mysterious since he was solemn and a bit aloof. Our little band of heroes learned quickly to place their trust in ole Jorend Haust, when they all learned he would give his life without hesitation to those he now considered his "family".
Many years ago, I made a new character for a Rifts game and chose a runaway slave borg. A few other players pointed out that a mercenary borg was much more powerful. I replied that I wanted a role-playing focused character. As a GM, I’ve had to balance groups of players, some of whom want role-playing and others are focused on dominating combat. Thanks for another good video
Shouldn't a tabletop rpg be a balance of both? For example, a nuetral good/ lawful good orc barbarian who wants to build a kingdom and be the strongest champion in the ring. Now add in that his tribe was decimated by evil elves, a missing druid mother and swords bard love interest coupled with an unknown father who is described as having one eye. A story like that could lead to the revelation that his father is Gruumsh thus making the hero a demigod who strives to now become a deity.
I think i finally put together a group of players who are looking for a session like this. They have each been more than happy to have 1 on 1 time with me while i prepare the campaign developing their character backstories, all of which are intertwined either in the world i'm creating or intertwined with each other's character backgrounds to flesh out a more interesting world. I'm excited and very nervous and hope that I'm able to give them the campaign that they are expecting. It's extremely low magic, like game of thrones, with extremely limited magic items, and no magic classes. :)
This is absolutely brilliant...... really clear and great advice. :) I have one distinct player who's the obvious power gamer and the rest are story/character driven guys. It's actually comforting to hear "don't expect the power gamer to become a story gamer at any stage, it just won't happen". Takes some weight off my shoulders. :) Definitely gonna use a lot of the advice offered in this video. Awesome. :)
When I play I am difnately a both camps kind of guy. Hell, I had a character who's entire schtich was the way he was always able to leverage his "Weaknesses" like his honor, hunger for romance, or love, and loyalty for his friends and family into powerful advantages. Everyone knew he was on their side, and he always tried to find a solution that benefited everyone, which he was increadibly good at. He always had some spin or twist ready to take advantage of the situation for the benefit of himself and/or his loved ones. I think his greatest weakness would have been if anyone had really screwed him or his family over, well that and the fact that the man was not emotionally stable, I never really got a chance to explore the charecters darker half, but he was the kind of devoted that meant if anyone fucked with him and his they where going to go through some major shit, but it sadly never came up.
@@vincejester7558 That's part of what makes playing said game fun. I get to create and sculpt a character, define their persona and develop their personality, and maybe learn a bit about myself along the way.
@@patrickbuckley7259 Exploring feelings and emotions and identity don't interest me. I am an adult, and did that in real life, with real people, In workplaces and classrooms and social gatherings. I ow who I am. I understand other peoples' experience. I want a game to escape all that drivel and rot.
Thanks for this video. Been looking at your to involve my players more. I'm a newer DM and have one who is into roleplay that I'm struggling with ideas for, one who is down for a story but is more into power playing, and a third who loves combat but had been blown away anytime a character's backstory find it easy into the story. You and the comments have been very helpful in guiding me.
Great video! I've only recently crossed that bridge and have had the chance to finish 1 character's arc. Since then I've been looking for more answers on ways to build characters. Many TH-camr's with book writing channels talk about this, but your the first to talk about character arcs in a D&D context. I would really love to see more on this topic.
@David Hager I couldn't agree more, Dragonlance was the first fantasy series I read and it blew me away. The care taken in crafting that world and the characters in it is incredible.
Another great Video. Your recommendation and suggestions have made my son and mine’s game awesome. Since I have been watching your channel my son is getting more into the game than before. Keep up the great work.
Love PDM's stuff and Dungeon Craft in general. Always learn something new or get a fresh take on how to D&D. The notion of character arcs is one I'd never considered for the game outside of just "This happened to the character, and then that happened to the character..." Can't wait to incorporate these ideas into my next campaign!
Some interesting points here. I used to be a power gamer, and still have some of those habits but having been a DM recently I’ve come to realise that for me, stories are where the heart of a game comes from.
I have to say, this is perhaps my favorite of all your videos, Professor. I wish more people were having these sorts of discussions. I get that D&D will always lean heavily on the simulationist side of the fluff-crunch continuum, but I'm a firm believer it can do both (and is at its best when it does). The current culture seems to lean more toward the rollpayer/crunchiness (nothing wrong with that, just not for me), which is a big reason I long ago switched to Fate, etc. Your videos have inspired me to step back behind the screen and give D&D another go.
Strangely, the model I use for designing my RPGs these days is actually an old video game from the 90's: Super Metroid. I think most players that finish it simply collect their power-ups and smash the big bad at the end with an exploding planet. Simple and to the point. But, for the people that explore the game will see that the lead adopts an alien as her own child, that child is stolen, and results in fighting a creature called the Mother Brain for the fate of this baby alien that (SPOILERS) ... Dies in the fight. It's a story of a misfit family and tragedy for the player looking for purpose and meaning. I tend to design my adventures in a similar way in that the plot is there for the players that seek it. Otherwise, the game side of role-players still level up their characters and get their power-ups.
@@generalsci3831 I prefer level 0 to 7 campaigns. Slugging the same three orcs with more and more HP over and over is just as boring as the Kumbaya or edge lord stuff. Give me a world! Marco Polo campaigns for me. New things.
@@generalsci3831 No no no. The nature of power gaming is to get bigger weapons to beat up bigger monsters, repeat. The monsters don't really change. They just have more hit points and do bigger damage. Its a failure of adventure games of the digital and analog variety.
Really great video! Flaws are the hardest to develop. Players have a hard time letting go. But every great hero has a mass flaw. And if you play those flaws, you will get a very rewarding story. If you don't, you will get game of stats and numbers. In the end, and sometimes it takes years for people to understand this, is that we are a civilization driven by storytelling --- are humanity literally thrives on it. Eventually, one way or another, numbers and stats will take second to players, just takes time.
As an alternative to the "Gollum test" just ask your players if they've watched Critical Role and wish their games could be like that. Then you know which side they are on.
I was once part of a group that valued the story more than Hack 'n' Slash gaming. I miss that group. Now, the group I am playing with is half and half. Most of them are new and want to kill everything that comes in our path...but I try to guide them to other possibilities. I am no longer the DM as I have passed the mantle to my son but was a DM for over 25 years. I use my knowledge to help the newer players.
This is, far and away, your best video. Great job! I just created a character as based around a weakness - I'm a Dragonborn Sorcerer that doesn't know they're a dragonborn (thinks he's human) and believes his powers and appearance to be part of some curse. He believes the curse is because he accidentally killed his (abusive) mother. He's afraid of himself and his abilities - which only seem to be growing stronger over time. I never thought though of what this character would be willing to die for. He's a teenager, so his attitudes are very wild and a bit unpredictable. I will try and think on this. Thank you!
Love Joseph Campbell! Read him in my early 20s for the first time. I found out later in my education that his generic myth is based on Vladmir Propp's generic fairy tale. 2:59 In a sandbox, you have to impose some sort of timer (as Hankerin' calls it) or a doom clock of some sort. If you don't get on to your objective, the goblins are going to get the Skull of Gronzok the Smasher and become so powerful that they will be able to enslave any pets they might own. 4:49 Not every "game" person is a power gamer. I think what makes the tactical end interesting is dealing with the strengths and weaknesses (including character flaws/virtues/motivations) that force the players to work together and cooperate as a team. I cannot stand power gamers who simply manipulate rules or acquire the best weapons and armor and magic items, who have zero tactical skill or creativity, and who want invulnerable characters that roll over everything. By the way, I also love role play -- whether it be making decisions based on character motivations/flaws/virtues, or social encounters. I just like to see people be clever (or at least think about playing smartly) and work together to exploit strengths and cover for weaknesses, not just brutal domination by a solo robot who really wants to play a video game. The difference between a tactical player and a power gamer is that a tactical player has to play intelligently, whereas a power gamer does not. I see power gaming as selfish. Love the voice effects. :D /
Power gaming done right isn't really that bad, as long as the player can rationalize how their character is being built. "How did your character learn that combination of abilities?" "Why is your character obsessed with becoming the best?" "How does your character know that magic item?" I make my gamers answer some questions like these about their characters during creation. It tends to force a bit of role-play, and hasn't backfired yet, even with the power gamers. My problem usually stems from power roleplaying, or building overly complex characters that are almost impossible to play. Even with no murder hobos, I hear, "It's what my character would do," anytime they disrupt the table with their convoluted roleplaying. Scariest part is one of them wanted to DM lately. It's a mess and I'm about to have to pull the plug on his game, as few of the players are enjoying it, myself included. He's just not ready. I do see your point, power gaming, without it pushing a narrative, is usually a lackluster experience.
@@vileyj6258 i agree with characters that are too complicated are problematic. You need to design a character that can work with a team, not some selfish brat. Players who go overboard with role play or power gaming tend to be selfish brats in a game environment -- they are not team players. When I design a character (or even a world as a DM), i think less is more. What you need to think about is what is the present situation, and then imagine what the past was, then find a few "turning points" (i.e., key life events for a character, or important historical events for a world, like the catastrophes in Robert Howard's "The Hyborean Age") that led to the present. For a character, I will want to explain how they got some virtue/flaw or skill or even an ability score (how did they become so strong, for example). to what are they loyal or disdainful. You just need to know their source of motivation so you can empathize with the character, get in that character's skin (like an actor would, not like a selfish player would), and figure out what that character would do in the given situation. But it cannot be an on/off switch!! I played with this one clown whose character "always forgot the plan," so inevitably after spending 30 mins of game time to figure out what we were going to do, he'd ruin it for the rest of the players by doing something else. finally I said, 'What the fuck? Can you at least roll a die to see if your guy can stay on track once in a while, or are you going to waste our time every fucking game?" On the other hand, I have played with power gamers who insist on holding everyone up until they get plate mail and the weapon they want instead of dealing with a little austerity. What do they think, the middle ages had Walmart for their convenience? That is just selfish play. Basically, any player who cannot go along with a team and slows them down on their objectives every fucking time is not worth playing with. I recommend every player read Gygax's AD&D Players Handbook (from 1978) "Successful Adventures" (pp. 107-109) before they try to socialize with other players at the gaming table. Between video game like power gaming and the overly-dramatic, it's become a lost art since WOTC took over the franchise. Murder hobos i think are really the fault of the DM not imposing strict enough consequences for bad behavior. Power gaming leads to murder hoboism, as do the "balanced encounters" of 5e. Murder hoboism is seeing the world that the DM crated as a place to loot and pillage and kill, a psychopathological approach to game play that sees everyone in the world as one-dimensional. The DM has to bring it to life and let the players feel the friction of the world vicariously through their characters. You have to help them to find a connection to the world. PS -- i recommend that any power gamer read Lloyd Alexander's "The Chronicles of Prydain" to figure out how interesting weak characters can be.
Full on role players are no more intelligent than power gamers. They are just more tedious to sit at the table and listen to yammer on about their imaginary life.
@@vincejester7558 That works too... I usually write one short paragraph -- where do they come from, 1-2 experiences they had that led to something that motivates them, how they came to be an adventurer. i can work with that much.
as i see it. If your players spend the entire sesion buyng pets isntead of going to the dungeon, it just means the next sesion is already prepared and you have less work to do next. a win-win scenario.
The character I'm currently playing is a lizardfolk druid. Our DM required players to come up with a meaningful connection to at least one other character, so I tied mine to the bard. I came up with a backstory where dreams were haunting my character of an impending threat to my swamp homeland, forcing me to go on a walkabout and seek aid in whatever form to forestall the events in those visions. At this stage, my character was a hunter just coming into his powers as a druid somewhat unwillingly, receiving instruction from the spirits of "The Green". On my travels, I came across the bard left for dead in a ditch by bandits. His face had appeared in my dreams so I nursed him back to health rather than kill and eat him, assuming he would lead me to other dream fragments. At some point, while stopped at a roadside inn, the bard coaxed me to play a drum I carried, which I used mainly for rituals and signaling. As we played together, a crowd gathered to watch this unusual performance and in the end we received applause and a few coins. The bard saw this as a business opportunity, and thus was born the two-man musical act of Lightfoot and Longjaw, currently touring the lands of the Swordcoast. The point of me telling this is that I never would have come up with this concept had the DM not forced a backstory connection to exist between the characters. I initially wanted to make a lizardfolk rogue/scout but I ended up with a drum-playing, civilization-curious druid who passes himself off as a dragonborn and performs music for "shinies", all the while constantly on the lookout for dream auguries and trying to draw meaning from those moments (which conveniently serves as more grist for the DM's story mill).
I'd argue you that a session where PC's spend their time enthused, excited and having fun buying pets, is not a waste of time, in fact the complete opposite! Imagine if you will, poor Paul the Puppy getting fried to death at the hands of a BBEG? I would wager the players at your table will have never been more nor will the ever be more motivated to take down said BBEG! One of the best ways to engage players emotions, agency and thirst for action! They do practically anything to get even! ;)
So here's my issue, and I hope I'm able to explain this properly: I have been playing D&D games for a few years now on and off, but I have never been able to effectively role play, as my mind is much more logical than creative, and I'm just not wired to do that well. I try, but it is often labored and comes off as mechanical, so that aspect isn't fun for me, although to be fair other players who can role play have made the scenario more enjoyable for me. However, I really enjoy the combat, and I do enjoy problem solving when we reach those points in the scenarios the DM sets up. But getting into the idea of character arcs, I am all for that, but it takes me a long time to come up with a backstory that the DM can use, especially if they want me to be as detailed as possible (place of birth, upbringing, family members, daily life before the adventure, etc.), and that's before the DM starts telling me what will and won't work. Because of that, my remaining mental energy leftover after making the character often ends up getting directed towards doing the best I can in combat and dominating the battlefield. In combat, that's where I can be the most expressive, just like the more social settings with the people who are good at role playing. Don't get me wrong, this doesn't mean that I want to play as a shallow, 1 dimensional character, but there are limits to what I can effectively spend energy on. This also doesn't mean that I want to be overpowered, but I do want to be able to do all the cool things in combat that my character should be able to do and enjoy that part of the game. I'm okay with my character having a weakness for storytelling purposes so that the DM has material they can work with, and I do try to role play around that, but it is in no way natural for me. It's also conflicting to me because the DM of the only group I've been able to play with so far (because of of my availability) doesn't seem to understand this even though I've tried to articulate it, and I often get burned out a couple of months into the campaign (because his intentions are different than my hopes), but I've kept going because we're old friends from college and they want me to play and I don't just want to leave the campaign.
Wait, you just said "wasted your session" with regard to "every player buying ferrets and kittens." Does not compute. That would be a really fun session with my player group! LoL
I’m planning to collaborate with a player to betray the party and give his character an arc of some sort. I’ll let everyone know if it ends up being too contrived.
Great video. Character arcs in RPGs are a great thing. I wonder if there's a way to hardwire those more into the game, to "persuade" the strategists to embrace bonds, flaws, and story opportunities?
Hmm … Knave seems to be a neat little RPG system, but I could not find anything related to character arcs in the rules. Love the Sebaldus Gotisch font, though. ;)
Roleplay Gamers = Love having PCs with weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Power Gamers = Hate anything that makes their PC weak or vulnerable. And then we have the Munchkin = Loves having weaknesses, vulnerabilities, flaws that help make their PC more powerful in the long run. Sort of like having your feet planted in both fields. I think I just realized why DMs should appreciate munchkins more other than their commitment to see the game to the end (which is kinda win parameter for gamers in general). The only downside is the laundry list of flaws to keep track of.
The problem with munchkins is that they take flaws but also don't want to roleplay them at all. You can get a powergamer that likes to roleplay, they just roleplay powerful heroes with few flaws. Which in fantasy is honestly kind of okay. I mean Luke Skywalker, Conan and Aragorn were all good at what they do. The main question is if they bother to choose to attach a personality to them or if they play them like a playing piece on a board.
There is an arc for powergamers. It's just meta. The thing that is not true is that dominating the spotlight is the way to have the most powerful character, or the most fun at the table. Hackmaster 4.0's mechanics are set up to teach it, in a completely fun, show don't tell manner.
Character arcs are why I say overarcing instead of overarching. An arch is a strucural part of some building . An arc , minus the elictrical and circular kind, is used to describe storytelling. So it sounds weird to me to say averarching when talking about the collection of smaller arcs in a bigger story arc. Am I insane??
I've found that the edge lords are quite scared of their own actions if you, as a DM, commit to them. Being bad looks good, until things get real. Some get angry, but some understand, and start changing their demeanor, and who does not like a redemption arc?
I was converted by a bad GM. Er, not bad, but the inevitable favoritism GM's have to roleplayers. I wanted to be part of the group driving the story...to lead it to more combat lol. Didn't really take very long to realize that you need a reason to get into combat, and it you don't have a story, you just raiding the same generic dungeons and camps over and over. The Big Bads are Bigger and Badder too, which is much better than just double CR mobs. As a GM now, I frequently use the challenge/dare method mentioned by others. You gotta throw in a nice reward if they win, I like to make them the focus if they pull off the RP character, and make have the others play the thugs. (Cause, ultimately they want the thus players to RP too, so we all lost the bet) Almost always, the skills they picked up carry over and the new game turns out pretty enjoyable for everyone.
my characters fall in the tragic hero route most often and one of my favorites was a warforged bodyguard that lost his master to a long war and I joined the party to help achive the restoration of his lord in a stronger metal body, but later on he took a deal from a devil to kill 3 people 2 of them were family members of the party when my character asked the party if they knew the names none of them answered that they were family so inn ignorance my character due to an unfortunate nat one was forced to burn down the estate and didn't find my target because they were forwarned about the hit by the player, now to be clear I was trying to go in and kill only one man but my grapple hook made an unornate hit on a window in an occupied room and didn't tell my hirelings to leave most of the occupants alive and try to find the target, but I did say they could loot the place and that they did and that led to the party coming to a head and killing my character and my bandits.
The two groups of Players seem to be the genuine break Between lawful good and neutral good. Doing the right right looks different and pragmatism is not abandoned just because you are the good guys. But perhaps that moral quandary is something to Push harder because the power player is easy to lead. Just flat out bribe them to behave. You want a piece of the Kingdom? You behave yourself and you have NPCs with them at all times to spread rumours if they go full Vader on the innocent.
Nifty tip to convert?.... make it a dare! That's how I was converted. My DM gave me a pre-generated dumb,fat kid. Changed the way I thought of character building from then on. "I betcha can't play a flawed character...." Before I knew it Laramie Silver oak had grown into a man and had a lot more heart than any previous character; a ranger with a strong sense of self having had to live with and/or overcome limitations. Call it a challenge a watch
Cool idea.
Agreed completely! That's how Scanlon Shorthalt of Critical Role fame came about, and if you've watched his entire arc... let's just say, tears were shed.
That's exactly what I did with my very seasoned (+25 years) players, and watching the evolvement of the characters have so far been amazing now two years in. I can highly recommend this :o)
In my experience, younger players tend to be the "power players" who are mainly interested in min-maxing and older players tend to appreciate the storytelling aspect of the game more.
The first thing you think of when you think of fantasy is the powerful heros. The badasses, and the epic fights where the hero comes through in the end.
For many new people this is what they want to get out of the game. Most grow out of it if you allow them to.
@@irontemplar6222 In my opinion the difference between the generations is mostly due to the format of modern video games, and video gamers having an unconscious expectation of that same format in an rpg. The most popular video games like WoW are all about min maxing and the "mechanical" aspects of the game. This is also why video gamers are much more inclined to be "chaotic stupid murder hobos" in rpgs, because that's exactly the type of person you are expected to be in a video game like Grand Theft Auto.
@@BGlasnost ehhh to be honest I don't think it has anything to do with that. The old guard where just as murderhoboy as everyone else. Their is a reason GG came out with consequences for breaking alignment.
@@irontemplar6222 I'm currently DMing a game with a mix of "old guard" and new, and my observations of this group along with others in the past have supported my opinion. The young ones tend to treat d&d like a video game, and the older ones tend to want a more in depth story and rp elements. Maybe I've met a skewed bunch of people that don't fit the norm, but also maybe not.
@@BGlasnost Yes I dont deny that it in general turns out that way. I however reject the theory you put forward that it is in any way a product of this generation.
When the old guard was 15-19 years old they were just as murder happy, and gamey in their treatment of D&D as the modern generation is. If not a bit more so.
The reason Gary Gaygax has their be such massive penalties for breaking alignment was because their is no atrocities that 16 year old's will not commit if gold, or something else they want is offered.
The Heroes journey is a fantastic tool to apply to every character. And while the template is the same, every story is different and you can't tell the similarities if done right, because the fascination with the story overwhelms the sense of similarity. I love it and I use it regularly. I might forward this to my players and I hope they enjoy the idea. This concept is what helped me understand storytelling both as player and as a DM.
I know I am bit late to the video, but the professor just nailed the Vader line. No extra "Luke" in sight.
Girthy episode! Great points, PDM! Funny enough, watching this made me realize that my primary antagonist in my campaign is faceless and therefore limiting the story for my PC because they don't know what they're facing off against.
Professor, you have provided some great tools for my tool kit, both as a DM and as a player.
Very informative!
I added this video to my saves 'RP Dungeon Craft' list.
In my youth, I was a tactical hack and slasher. As I got older, I started to really embrace RP - The stage craft, if you will.
Cheers!
Perhaps your best video ever!! Which is saying a lot since everything you touch is gold
I Love ALL Dungeon Craft videos! Especially his back catalog.
Holy shit, one of your PCs being in love with the villain?!? I love it
You can have one of those "Zuko decision under ba sing se" moments where one of your PCs takes the villains side in a big climactic fight.
I just finished a 5-year campaign this Saturday night. I had asked my PC three questions: who did he love the most? what thing did he love the most? and, what idea did he love the most? These three questions carried me so well through so many questions, situations, dilemmas throughout the campaign. Highly recommended.
Vader? Luke’s father?! Where was the spoiler alert?!
haha, I was just going to ask that.
Same! If this were a personal conversation we can talk star wars all day long. I'm surprised lord of the rings didn't get spoiled first when discussing the hero's journey..
Just remember, during the interrogations aboard the deathstar, vader did terrible things to his strong willed daughter and she didnt break. Yet you tell your punk ass son you are his father and he cries and jumps to his death.
@@SMunro Too funny! Too awesome! Thank you.
This type of content is the reason I give him a few $$$ on patreon every month. Pure gold every time.
Thanks man!
I love the 5 points. And that you related them to media that I know. It really helps.
Funnily enough, my best friend and his brother are the 2 different kinds of players. At first, they were both power players, my friend choosing a barbarian and his brother a rogue. The more their first adventure went on, the more I saw my friend's character move away from the "My goal is to kill everything" to a more of a "I'm an ex soldier and I follow my duty". I still throw his character in from time to time as a passing NPC or patron in a tavern and he agrees that his character is the type of an adventurer that roams the land with his new friends to protect and care for the common people
Someone once took a chance on my Star Wars character application; a Twi'lek slave. My character was brought into the life of intergalactic slavery at a young age, the exact specifics left intentionally vague. Suffice it to say, when the game started, my character was the recent addition to a collection of slaves working for a Hutt on Nar Shaddaa, and was the Hutt's latest favorite. Some mercenaries came through, looking for work, and the Hutt sent them on an assignment, and also sent my character to keep tabs on them, and to report any 'disruptions' the group may cause, or other issues that they may fail to report. Effectively, my character was to make sure that if they screwed anything up, the Hutt would know, and dock pay accordingly, especially if they lied about it.
After some success working together, the party was allowed to 'rent' my character to continue helping them off-world, which they did. The job that was taking them off-world was given by a character who did not tolerate weakness, and so taught my character a few tricks about using and concealing a weapon, despite not having much in the way of clothing. With the weapons, there also came a confidence boost, and a greater acceptance of risky behavior.
When it came time to actually leave, my character began to throw some weight around, asking the dock crew why our ship hadn't been cleared for departure yet, and to get to it. With the successful expedition of our clearance to leave, the rest of the party started taking on roles within the ship, such as pilot, gunner, navigator, etc... but my character didn't have any such skills. What they did have though was a list of contacts, including the Hutt that owned her, and the NPC who had armed her, and was currently giving them their assignment off-world. As the only one in contact with either individual, that meant relaying information to the rest of the party, and because of that, when the party arrived at the destination, the Twi'lek slave stepped up to deal with the Imperial docking authorities regarding the docking fees, reason for landing, what cargo was on board, etc. While the rest of the party did the illegal work they'd come to do, my character began making arrangements to start up a legitimate ferry business, taking passengers across the system as long as their destination was along the way of our own. This would permit us to make some of our money back during these journeys in order to keep fueled up, as well as maintain the ship, and top off supplies as the need arose, plus turn a small profit.
Essentially, after a few months, my character was still by law a slave, but had gone from someone who hid behind others, to walking right up to Imperial officers as the captain of a ship, and leader of a legitimate transportation operation with all of the legal paperwork and authority to do business freely while the rest of the crew took care of the shadier aspect of things.
The thumbs down is from an edgelord who opened up to his DM about his love for the evil countess and was stabbed to death in his sleep.
Good one.
Seriously, this tip is too important to be at the end of the video!
Love your avatar.
Best part “the countess isn’t gonna stab the bastard Deville without a savings throw or something”
14:00 I am going to counter your argument in regard's to Denarius Targaryen. She is from the start of her rule, to the end of her rule. A Tyrant, and its her way or the highway (so long as those who walk it a paved with dragon fire) She is no different then any of the previous tyrants the Targaryen's have produced. The only difference is some of the things she tyrants such as her being aginst slavery. We the audience agree with, and I have no shortage of players who have tried to do the same thing in my games. Usually with disasterus consequence's.
However she was from start to finish an Evil Tyrant. One who always wanted to get her way, and only occasionally acquiesced to her advisors who held her at bay at times.
This video NEEDS to have more attention paid to it. Every player, every GM should see this IMO. Wonderfully done Professor!
My first ever Paladin was suffering a crisis of faith after witnessing the corruption of the church. He broke from under the control of the local bishop which did not go over well and was actually being hunted to be brought back for trial. The rest of the party was not aware of this of course & it made him somewhat mysterious since he was solemn and a bit aloof. Our little band of heroes learned quickly to place their trust in ole Jorend Haust, when they all learned he would give his life without hesitation to those he now considered his "family".
That last bit, about not explioting their weakness, I can dig it. Thanks.
Many years ago, I made a new character for a Rifts game and chose a runaway slave borg. A few other players pointed out that a mercenary borg was much more powerful. I replied that I wanted a role-playing focused character. As a GM, I’ve had to balance groups of players, some of whom want role-playing and others are focused on dominating combat. Thanks for another good video
Shouldn't a tabletop rpg be a balance of both? For example, a nuetral good/ lawful good orc barbarian who wants to build a kingdom and be the strongest champion in the ring. Now add in that his tribe was decimated by evil elves, a missing druid mother and swords bard love interest coupled with an unknown father who is described as having one eye. A story like that could lead to the revelation that his father is Gruumsh thus making the hero a demigod who strives to now become a deity.
I think i finally put together a group of players who are looking for a session like this. They have each been more than happy to have 1 on 1 time with me while i prepare the campaign developing their character backstories, all of which are intertwined either in the world i'm creating or intertwined with each other's character backgrounds to flesh out a more interesting world. I'm excited and very nervous and hope that I'm able to give them the campaign that they are expecting. It's extremely low magic, like game of thrones, with extremely limited magic items, and no magic classes. :)
This is absolutely brilliant...... really clear and great advice. :)
I have one distinct player who's the obvious power gamer and the rest are story/character driven guys.
It's actually comforting to hear "don't expect the power gamer to become a story gamer at any stage, it just won't happen". Takes some weight off my shoulders. :)
Definitely gonna use a lot of the advice offered in this video. Awesome. :)
When I play I am difnately a both camps kind of guy. Hell, I had a character who's entire schtich was the way he was always able to leverage his "Weaknesses" like his honor, hunger for romance, or love, and loyalty for his friends and family into powerful advantages. Everyone knew he was on their side, and he always tried to find a solution that benefited everyone, which he was increadibly good at. He always had some spin or twist ready to take advantage of the situation for the benefit of himself and/or his loved ones. I think his greatest weakness would have been if anyone had really screwed him or his family over, well that and the fact that the man was not emotionally stable, I never really got a chance to explore the charecters darker half, but he was the kind of devoted that meant if anyone fucked with him and his they where going to go through some major shit, but it sadly never came up.
Thanks for sharing!
Yer spending way too much time thinking about an imaginary character in a fantasy game.
@@vincejester7558 That's part of what makes playing said game fun. I get to create and sculpt a character, define their persona and develop their personality, and maybe learn a bit about myself along the way.
@@patrickbuckley7259
Exploring feelings and emotions and identity don't interest me. I am an adult, and did that in real life, with real people, In workplaces and classrooms and social gatherings. I ow who I am. I understand other peoples' experience. I want a game to escape all that drivel and rot.
Thank you for this unintentional birthday gift.
Thanks for this video. Been looking at your to involve my players more. I'm a newer DM and have one who is into roleplay that I'm struggling with ideas for, one who is down for a story but is more into power playing, and a third who loves combat but had been blown away anytime a character's backstory find it easy into the story. You and the comments have been very helpful in guiding me.
Great video! I've only recently crossed that bridge and have had the chance to finish 1 character's arc. Since then I've been looking for more answers on ways to build characters.
Many TH-camr's with book writing channels talk about this, but your the first to talk about character arcs in a D&D context. I would really love to see more on this topic.
@David Hager I couldn't agree more, Dragonlance was the first fantasy series I read and it blew me away. The care taken in crafting that world and the characters in it is incredible.
Another insightful video, thanks Professor!
There is also the possibility of them believing all their family was killed, but in actuality there is another branch still alive
Another great Video. Your recommendation and suggestions have made my son and mine’s game awesome. Since I have been watching your channel my son is getting more into the game than before. Keep up the great work.
Once again you have lightened the load of storytellers. Thanks, PDM.
Love PDM's stuff and Dungeon Craft in general. Always learn something new or get a fresh take on how to D&D. The notion of character arcs is one I'd never considered for the game outside of just "This happened to the character, and then that happened to the character..." Can't wait to incorporate these ideas into my next campaign!
Yet another switch of my vote for your "best video" you have made. Well done, Professor.
Some interesting points here. I used to be a power gamer, and still have some of those habits but having been a DM recently I’ve come to realise that for me, stories are where the heart of a game comes from.
Super useful, thank you! Current campaign has just reached the point where I need to dig into backstories and story arcs and this was a great help.
This is a great vid PDM! Saved this one to my D&D reference playlist. Bravo!
Best D&D channel
Best commenter!
I have to say, this is perhaps my favorite of all your videos, Professor. I wish more people were having these sorts of discussions. I get that D&D will always lean heavily on the simulationist side of the fluff-crunch continuum, but I'm a firm believer it can do both (and is at its best when it does). The current culture seems to lean more toward the rollpayer/crunchiness (nothing wrong with that, just not for me), which is a big reason I long ago switched to Fate, etc. Your videos have inspired me to step back behind the screen and give D&D another go.
Strangely, the model I use for designing my RPGs these days is actually an old video game from the 90's: Super Metroid. I think most players that finish it simply collect their power-ups and smash the big bad at the end with an exploding planet. Simple and to the point. But, for the people that explore the game will see that the lead adopts an alien as her own child, that child is stolen, and results in fighting a creature called the Mother Brain for the fate of this baby alien that (SPOILERS)
... Dies in the fight. It's a story of a misfit family and tragedy for the player looking for purpose and meaning. I tend to design my adventures in a similar way in that the plot is there for the players that seek it. Otherwise, the game side of role-players still level up their characters and get their power-ups.
...and a ragtag band of underdogs who learn that the greatest treasure is the friends they made on their journey into ...
Blah, Blah, Blah.
@@vincejester7558 Sounds like you'd just be there for the power-ups, my guy. Which is perfectly fine. :)
@@generalsci3831
I prefer level 0 to 7 campaigns.
Slugging the same three orcs with more and more HP over and over is just as boring as the Kumbaya or edge lord stuff. Give me a world! Marco Polo campaigns for me. New things.
@@vincejester7558 I didn't realize I was advertising smashing three orcs over and over again. Me thinks you're assuming things about my games.
@@generalsci3831
No no no. The nature of power gaming is to get bigger weapons to beat up bigger monsters, repeat. The monsters don't really change. They just have more hit points and do bigger damage. Its a failure of adventure games of the digital and analog variety.
Best video I have seen here as of now. Thanks!
Loving it Professor! Your topics continue to inspire and help me to push my limits.
One of your best videos (that I have watched). Spot on!
Really great video! Flaws are the hardest to develop. Players have a hard time letting go. But every great hero has a mass flaw. And if you play those flaws, you will get a very rewarding story. If you don't, you will get game of stats and numbers. In the end, and sometimes it takes years for people to understand this, is that we are a civilization driven by storytelling --- are humanity literally thrives on it. Eventually, one way or another, numbers and stats will take second to players, just takes time.
As an alternative to the "Gollum test" just ask your players if they've watched Critical Role and wish their games could be like that. Then you know which side they are on.
Good one.
The annoying side?
A lot of great advice. I can use it to be both a better DM and player. 👍
I was once part of a group that valued the story more than Hack 'n' Slash gaming. I miss that group. Now, the group I am playing with is half and half. Most of them are new and want to kill everything that comes in our path...but I try to guide them to other possibilities. I am no longer the DM as I have passed the mantle to my son but was a DM for over 25 years. I use my knowledge to help the newer players.
Definitely one of your better videos, Prof.
Love your videos. Thank you and keep em coming.
English teacher, married to a Drama teacher, both play D&D together. Did you ever consider and appreciate that you won a sweet jackpot?
Every day.
This is, far and away, your best video. Great job!
I just created a character as based around a weakness - I'm a Dragonborn Sorcerer that doesn't know they're a dragonborn (thinks he's human) and believes his powers and appearance to be part of some curse. He believes the curse is because he accidentally killed his (abusive) mother. He's afraid of himself and his abilities - which only seem to be growing stronger over time. I never thought though of what this character would be willing to die for. He's a teenager, so his attitudes are very wild and a bit unpredictable. I will try and think on this. Thank you!
Love Joseph Campbell! Read him in my early 20s for the first time. I found out later in my education that his generic myth is based on Vladmir Propp's generic fairy tale.
2:59 In a sandbox, you have to impose some sort of timer (as Hankerin' calls it) or a doom clock of some sort. If you don't get on to your objective, the goblins are going to get the Skull of Gronzok the Smasher and become so powerful that they will be able to enslave any pets they might own.
4:49 Not every "game" person is a power gamer. I think what makes the tactical end interesting is dealing with the strengths and weaknesses (including character flaws/virtues/motivations) that force the players to work together and cooperate as a team. I cannot stand power gamers who simply manipulate rules or acquire the best weapons and armor and magic items, who have zero tactical skill or creativity, and who want invulnerable characters that roll over everything. By the way, I also love role play -- whether it be making decisions based on character motivations/flaws/virtues, or social encounters. I just like to see people be clever (or at least think about playing smartly) and work together to exploit strengths and cover for weaknesses, not just brutal domination by a solo robot who really wants to play a video game. The difference between a tactical player and a power gamer is that a tactical player has to play intelligently, whereas a power gamer does not. I see power gaming as selfish.
Love the voice effects. :D
/
Power gaming done right isn't really that bad, as long as the player can rationalize how their character is being built. "How did your character learn that combination of abilities?" "Why is your character obsessed with becoming the best?" "How does your character know that magic item?"
I make my gamers answer some questions like these about their characters during creation. It tends to force a bit of role-play, and hasn't backfired yet, even with the power gamers.
My problem usually stems from power roleplaying, or building overly complex characters that are almost impossible to play. Even with no murder hobos, I hear, "It's what my character would do," anytime they disrupt the table with their convoluted roleplaying.
Scariest part is one of them wanted to DM lately. It's a mess and I'm about to have to pull the plug on his game, as few of the players are enjoying it, myself included. He's just not ready.
I do see your point, power gaming, without it pushing a narrative, is usually a lackluster experience.
@@vileyj6258 i agree with characters that are too complicated are problematic. You need to design a character that can work with a team, not some selfish brat. Players who go overboard with role play or power gaming tend to be selfish brats in a game environment -- they are not team players. When I design a character (or even a world as a DM), i think less is more. What you need to think about is what is the present situation, and then imagine what the past was, then find a few "turning points" (i.e., key life events for a character, or important historical events for a world, like the catastrophes in Robert Howard's "The Hyborean Age") that led to the present. For a character, I will want to explain how they got some virtue/flaw or skill or even an ability score (how did they become so strong, for example). to what are they loyal or disdainful. You just need to know their source of motivation so you can empathize with the character, get in that character's skin (like an actor would, not like a selfish player would), and figure out what that character would do in the given situation. But it cannot be an on/off switch!! I played with this one clown whose character "always forgot the plan," so inevitably after spending 30 mins of game time to figure out what we were going to do, he'd ruin it for the rest of the players by doing something else. finally I said, 'What the fuck? Can you at least roll a die to see if your guy can stay on track once in a while, or are you going to waste our time every fucking game?" On the other hand, I have played with power gamers who insist on holding everyone up until they get plate mail and the weapon they want instead of dealing with a little austerity. What do they think, the middle ages had Walmart for their convenience? That is just selfish play. Basically, any player who cannot go along with a team and slows them down on their objectives every fucking time is not worth playing with. I recommend every player read Gygax's AD&D Players Handbook (from 1978) "Successful Adventures" (pp. 107-109) before they try to socialize with other players at the gaming table. Between video game like power gaming and the overly-dramatic, it's become a lost art since WOTC took over the franchise.
Murder hobos i think are really the fault of the DM not imposing strict enough consequences for bad behavior. Power gaming leads to murder hoboism, as do the "balanced encounters" of 5e. Murder hoboism is seeing the world that the DM crated as a place to loot and pillage and kill, a psychopathological approach to game play that sees everyone in the world as one-dimensional. The DM has to bring it to life and let the players feel the friction of the world vicariously through their characters. You have to help them to find a connection to the world.
PS -- i recommend that any power gamer read Lloyd Alexander's "The Chronicles of Prydain" to figure out how interesting weak characters can be.
Full on role players are no more intelligent than power gamers. They are just more tedious to sit at the table and listen to yammer on about their imaginary life.
@@BTsMusicChannel
Backstory= 5 words on an index card.
@@vincejester7558 That works too... I usually write one short paragraph -- where do they come from, 1-2 experiences they had that led to something that motivates them, how they came to be an adventurer. i can work with that much.
Great info PDM, thank you!
Solid work Professor!
I love the use of Larry Elmore's art to describe your examples!
2:27 epic spoiler. Aside from that, amazing video as usual. :)
as i see it. If your players spend the entire sesion buyng pets isntead of going to the dungeon, it just means the next sesion is already prepared and you have less work to do next. a win-win scenario.
Lol. True.
Dragonlance is so freaking GOOD >.
The character I'm currently playing is a lizardfolk druid. Our DM required players to come up with a meaningful connection to at least one other character, so I tied mine to the bard. I came up with a backstory where dreams were haunting my character of an impending threat to my swamp homeland, forcing me to go on a walkabout and seek aid in whatever form to forestall the events in those visions. At this stage, my character was a hunter just coming into his powers as a druid somewhat unwillingly, receiving instruction from the spirits of "The Green".
On my travels, I came across the bard left for dead in a ditch by bandits. His face had appeared in my dreams so I nursed him back to health rather than kill and eat him, assuming he would lead me to other dream fragments. At some point, while stopped at a roadside inn, the bard coaxed me to play a drum I carried, which I used mainly for rituals and signaling. As we played together, a crowd gathered to watch this unusual performance and in the end we received applause and a few coins. The bard saw this as a business opportunity, and thus was born the two-man musical act of Lightfoot and Longjaw, currently touring the lands of the Swordcoast.
The point of me telling this is that I never would have come up with this concept had the DM not forced a backstory connection to exist between the characters. I initially wanted to make a lizardfolk rogue/scout but I ended up with a drum-playing, civilization-curious druid who passes himself off as a dragonborn and performs music for "shinies", all the while constantly on the lookout for dream auguries and trying to draw meaning from those moments (which conveniently serves as more grist for the DM's story mill).
"Psychology of Players", spoken like a true Professor :)
excellent video. Man I am exactly that. Used to be power gamer, now only care about scenario and story.
I genuinely thought you were going to say, "My wife is a genuine drama... queen." 😆
In the RPG system I play to get a power you have to get a disadvantage like a code of honor, a defenseless person you need to protect or weak spot
The very last point is excellent. Your players are going to expect you to leverage their flaw. But you never will, until that perfect time.
Can I please give 5 thumbs up? This was AMAZING and so helpful! I love your videos. Thank you Professor!
If buying ferrets and kittens is what your players want to do, and everyone is having fun and roleplaying, I’d argue that’s not a wasted session.
For 3 of the 6 people at the table. The others will look at their phones all night.
That death bringer mini is sick, who makes that? Totally convinced me to sub lol
Best one yet
I'd argue you that a session where PC's spend their time enthused, excited and having fun buying pets, is not a waste of time, in fact the complete opposite! Imagine if you will, poor Paul the Puppy getting fried to death at the hands of a BBEG? I would wager the players at your table will have never been more nor will the ever be more motivated to take down said BBEG! One of the best ways to engage players emotions, agency and thirst for action! They do practically anything to get even! ;)
These videos are gold, you need a donate button.
Super vid, PDM!
So here's my issue, and I hope I'm able to explain this properly: I have been playing D&D games for a few years now on and off, but I have never been able to effectively role play, as my mind is much more logical than creative, and I'm just not wired to do that well. I try, but it is often labored and comes off as mechanical, so that aspect isn't fun for me, although to be fair other players who can role play have made the scenario more enjoyable for me. However, I really enjoy the combat, and I do enjoy problem solving when we reach those points in the scenarios the DM sets up.
But getting into the idea of character arcs, I am all for that, but it takes me a long time to come up with a backstory that the DM can use, especially if they want me to be as detailed as possible (place of birth, upbringing, family members, daily life before the adventure, etc.), and that's before the DM starts telling me what will and won't work. Because of that, my remaining mental energy leftover after making the character often ends up getting directed towards doing the best I can in combat and dominating the battlefield. In combat, that's where I can be the most expressive, just like the more social settings with the people who are good at role playing. Don't get me wrong, this doesn't mean that I want to play as a shallow, 1 dimensional character, but there are limits to what I can effectively spend energy on. This also doesn't mean that I want to be overpowered, but I do want to be able to do all the cool things in combat that my character should be able to do and enjoy that part of the game. I'm okay with my character having a weakness for storytelling purposes so that the DM has material they can work with, and I do try to role play around that, but it is in no way natural for me.
It's also conflicting to me because the DM of the only group I've been able to play with so far (because of of my availability) doesn't seem to understand this even though I've tried to articulate it, and I often get burned out a couple of months into the campaign (because his intentions are different than my hopes), but I've kept going because we're old friends from college and they want me to play and I don't just want to leave the campaign.
Great stuff again!!!!
awesome. all PDM is bingeworthy.
Wait, you just said "wasted your session" with regard to "every player buying ferrets and kittens." Does not compute. That would be a really fun session with my player group! LoL
I believe it. Every group is different.
Most youtubers must have missed that memo as their intros are 9 1/2 minutes for a 10 minute video
I KNOW, right??!??
I’m planning to collaborate with a player to betray the party and give his character an arc of some sort. I’ll let everyone know if it ends up being too contrived.
Make sure they betray but lose.
another great video
Every power gamer example prof gives, my players did exactly that. Gods of rpg, grant me better players lol
They are wishing for a better DM, too.
Loved this
Great video. Character arcs in RPGs are a great thing. I wonder if there's a way to hardwire those more into the game, to "persuade" the strategists to embrace bonds, flaws, and story opportunities?
Make is part of the character creation process, like Knave of Conan.
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "Knave of Conan"?
@@PjotrFrank
He must have meant Knave OR Conan.
@@teteudeu Thanks for the "translation". Just downloading Knave from Drive Thru RPG, to check it out. ;)
Hmm … Knave seems to be a neat little RPG system, but I could not find anything related to character arcs in the rules. Love the Sebaldus Gotisch font, though. ;)
Roleplay Gamers = Love having PCs with weaknesses and vulnerabilities.
Power Gamers = Hate anything that makes their PC weak or vulnerable.
And then we have the Munchkin = Loves having weaknesses, vulnerabilities, flaws that help make their PC more powerful in the long run. Sort of like having your feet planted in both fields.
I think I just realized why DMs should appreciate munchkins more other than their commitment to see the game to the end (which is kinda win parameter for gamers in general). The only downside is the laundry list of flaws to keep track of.
Good observation.
The problem with munchkins is that they take flaws but also don't want to roleplay them at all. You can get a powergamer that likes to roleplay, they just roleplay powerful heroes with few flaws. Which in fantasy is honestly kind of okay. I mean Luke Skywalker, Conan and Aragorn were all good at what they do. The main question is if they bother to choose to attach a personality to them or if they play them like a playing piece on a board.
Wow great video
Great video! How’s the Wednesday time slot working out?
Was that a Ren & Stimpy reference @ 3:55?
14:41 stop chronicling my life...
Ive read all those books, seen all those movies, but I haven't watched GoT because I haven't finished the books yet--aahhhhhhhhhhhhh!
There is an arc for powergamers. It's just meta. The thing that is not true is that dominating the spotlight is the way to have the most powerful character, or the most fun at the table. Hackmaster 4.0's mechanics are set up to teach it, in a completely fun, show don't tell manner.
Great content!!!
...are you saying Dark Vader or Darth Vader?
(my ears prickled a few times 😉)
I don't know why I laughed at the Aunt Mae part!
I see deathbringer, i hit like. It’s that simple.
Character arcs are why I say overarcing instead of overarching. An arch is a strucural part of some building . An arc , minus the elictrical and circular kind, is used to describe storytelling. So it sounds weird to me to say averarching when talking about the collection of smaller arcs in a bigger story arc. Am I insane??
Where did you get the mini of the solider running the peasant through in the Death Bringer shot?
I've found that the edge lords are quite scared of their own actions if you, as a DM, commit to them. Being bad looks good, until things get real. Some get angry, but some understand, and start changing their demeanor, and who does not like a redemption arc?
I was converted by a bad GM. Er, not bad, but the inevitable favoritism GM's have to roleplayers. I wanted to be part of the group driving the story...to lead it to more combat lol. Didn't really take very long to realize that you need a reason to get into combat, and it you don't have a story, you just raiding the same generic dungeons and camps over and over. The Big Bads are Bigger and Badder too, which is much better than just double CR mobs. As a GM now, I frequently use the challenge/dare method mentioned by others. You gotta throw in a nice reward if they win, I like to make them the focus if they pull off the RP character, and make have the others play the thugs. (Cause, ultimately they want the thus players to RP too, so we all lost the bet) Almost always, the skills they picked up carry over and the new game turns out pretty enjoyable for everyone.
Somebody who WANTS to be DM is usually a BAD DM.
my characters fall in the tragic hero route most often and one of my favorites was a warforged bodyguard that lost his master to a long war and I joined the party to help achive the restoration of his lord in a stronger metal body, but later on he took a deal from a devil to kill 3 people 2 of them were family members of the party when my character asked the party if they knew the names none of them answered that they were family so inn ignorance my character due to an unfortunate nat one was forced to burn down the estate and didn't find my target because they were forwarned about the hit by the player, now to be clear I was trying to go in and kill only one man but my grapple hook made an unornate hit on a window in an occupied room and didn't tell my hirelings to leave most of the occupants alive and try to find the target, but I did say they could loot the place and that they did and that led to the party coming to a head and killing my character and my bandits.
What about trying to transition the power gamer to being a DM?
A new one - Awesome!
Share it. For some reason it's not getting many views.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Maybe everyone is still expecting them on Thursday?
The two groups of
Players seem to be the genuine break
Between lawful good and neutral good. Doing the right right looks different and pragmatism is not abandoned just because you are the good guys.
But perhaps that moral quandary is something to
Push harder because the power player is easy to lead. Just flat out bribe them to behave. You want a piece of the
Kingdom? You behave yourself and you have NPCs with them at all times to spread rumours if they go full Vader on the innocent.