1:43 John's background. (starting with the dialogos 'prayer'). 36:03 Looking at vs looking through feelings/emotions. 39:26 Human nature as perennial problems as an endless void, source of meaning crisis. 42:35 Tools for use in obtaining wisdom. Four types of knowing and psychotech. 1:00:20 Meaning crisis, and the reintegration of science and spirituality. 1:05:44 Religion that is not a religion and the ecology of practices/psychotechnologies. 1:17:28 What's wrong with traditional religiions. 1:33:24 Stealing the culture. 1:47:58 Reinventing play. Serious Play. Finite and Infinite Games. 2:03:25 Dialectics and dialogos
This is fantastic, it's very helpful to see you distilling out some essence. I got lost somewhere after the 10th episode of the meaning crisis, and I was feeling quite daunted in starting again. After this I will try and give it another go.
This is probably the best compact summary of JVs work that I have seen. Thank you Eric for your l contribution to this. You really enriched John’s description with great examples and insight. Hamlet, zen, sports this is so stimulating. Love it.
Excellent distillation! I am going to use the description of circling/diologos at the end as a starting point for Rebel Wisdom group discussion. “A flowstate of distributed cognition, in which we come to uncover the serious play of perspectival and participatory intimacy”
What is truly remarkable is it that you've gotten so close without suffering great tragedy. Appears that your relentless, yet seemingly effortless authenticity is key. Never have I seen someone, living, who has come so close. I have something to offer, would like to communicate. Will email you at some point, will add references for security.
A dramatic revision/re-framing of addiction as a 'disease' is urgently needed... good to hear that the interviewer seems to at least understand what addicts are up against... I am an addict and have been so since 1990... Mark Lewis's work may be my next reading material seeing that it is so highly recommended by you, Mr Vervaeke. Another wonderful interview.
Interesting as always. A good summary of John's work. I shall offer my interpretation of the problem. (within a narrower frame than John's) In my model, the differential of ourselves with respect to time are feelings. These make the building blocks of how we speak to each other (and for our cognitive experience facts are just assured feelings). We differentiate feelings to get attitude. Then differentiate our attitude to get spirit. This is to give us a notion of 3 different levels to depth to ourselves and how they relate to each other. We require a long-term understanding of ourselves to sort out meaning in our lives. Our spirit is the most comprehensible long-lasting aspect of our selves, hence the call to spirituality. We want to relate feeling (1st derivative) as that is how we currently speak and comprehend the world with the spirit (3rd derivative). Yet cognitive grammar fails us, Spiritual concepts have a purity so are unwieldy to mould and attach to. The concepts from the feeling end get approximated to the nearest concept. When we are connecting feelings to derivatives of themselves, the concept approximation risks connecting to itself, resulting in misunderstanding. John has a far more detailed picture with more phenomenological connection points and is able to infer a network of connections elsewhere. I know others get round it, with enough comprehension, but it still bothers me. My first thought of a solution is to widen the cognitive grammar at the spiritual end. Why should spiritual concepts not exhibit the same flexibility, as feelings? But if I was to go further with my derivative depth model and take the derivative of spirit I think I get anguish (hope sustains spirit, but anguish I believe is the experience of it changing), which is a state people want to get away from. So to me, that is the reason the language for spirit seems so idealistic. If it extends beyond itself, there is fear. And yet, locating anguish is important to our meaning...
This is the most ads I've ever seen in a TH-cam video. They're about every two minutes for the first third of the video! (If that's the model that works best, fine. I couldn't make it through though. I'll try again when I can use my desktop. Thanks for the excellent conversations.)
I’ve said it before, and I’ll repeat it: TH-cam Premium. LOL. Or use one of those ad blocker thingies (which in turn may track you and stuff). But Premium has more benefits than just being an ad blocker. AND it will still support the one whose videos you're watching/playing if they have any ads.
@@johnvervaeke @John Vervaeke The problem may be on my end. It seemed TH-cam was suddenly pushing an unreasonable amount ads in their mobile app, but not in browsers. It was behaving very strangely. Now the ads are gone! I'll spare you further details. I apologize for the confusion.
@@phiswe I recently declined a free trial. Maybe that's why they started with the excessive ads! I may consider premium, but other than this series I only watch the occasional video on TH-cam.
The Muses do not heed the Enlightened Ones. And without the Muse, there’s no possibility of artifice and art. To live in an Enlightened World means living in a world without music.
John, you call Guy "the creator" of circling, however I would argue that what he is practicing and teaching was developed in community, not by him by himself, just as you state must be the case for the new psychotechnology
Great talk, yes, we need less anti-structuralist, more leaders, strong leaders (Jordan Peterson is right about this, sure there are other hero archetypes, but the one we need now is the one he's pointing at) and more courage. What is touched on here is advocacy against vs. testimony for. We need to, as individuals, be better not worse. If you strike out in anger, you aren't advocating for a thing and you are using your energy up on anger instead of positive change. This is something like a wrong type of protest - which was originally to give testimony for, not against. Not everyone is living in a meaning crisis, those people are basically just religious. They are also largely ignorant of what is going on around them in the way that you are speaking of here. Sure, postmodern thinking makes people play power and status games, because that is the proper lens for that type of thinking. So that is bad, perhaps postmodernism is a bad thing overall. What you see are people going over to religion, christians seem to be heading for orthodoxy, for example. I don't think people steal the culture in the way you are stating. I think that the culture gets stolen by working ideas. I think the thought that we just need more wise men to provide ideals for people mimic. This is a doable way to help people transform themselves in a positive fashion. We can win if we each clean our rooms and advocate for the things we believe in the most.
It’s been difficult to get started with Vervaeke because in this and in the first lecture on the meaning crisis, he does not define or describe what he means by the term. At least in this one, he briefly mentions having felt the promise of "connection and meaning" in his early religious life, which ultimately did not materialize in that context. He also mentions wisdom. But there must be broader family, societal and cultural aspects to such a crisis worth describing. Perhaps his books contain this information. Not knowing what problems he’s trying to solve makes the rest of the talk seem shallow.
Regarding the "angry activist" archetype, it seems a waste of time & energy. If you spend all or most of your time & attention acting against the malfunctioning stuff, you are not creating the alternative (well-functioning stuff) the world may need. Better to create the new ways than to stand there cursing at the old ways. To some degree, creating new ways may compete for resources with maintenance of the old ways, so some recruitment of resources from the the old ways may be needed. Still, it seems better to address the old ways from the position of starting replacement cultural practices than from stopping the old with no proposed substitutes.
Fifty episodes of awakening from the meaning crisis compressed in approximately in two hours and 15min. Great questions!
That's what we were going for! Glad to hear it landed. :)
Precisely!
1:43 John's background. (starting with the dialogos 'prayer').
36:03 Looking at vs looking through feelings/emotions.
39:26 Human nature as perennial problems as an endless void, source of meaning crisis.
42:35 Tools for use in obtaining wisdom. Four types of knowing and psychotech.
1:00:20 Meaning crisis, and the reintegration of science and spirituality.
1:05:44 Religion that is not a religion and the ecology of practices/psychotechnologies.
1:17:28 What's wrong with traditional religiions.
1:33:24 Stealing the culture.
1:47:58 Reinventing play. Serious Play. Finite and Infinite Games.
2:03:25 Dialectics and dialogos
Astounding summations, gratitude from the howling void.
Hope you enjoyed Todd! Thanks for being here. :)
I’m with you in the howling void! In fact it’s crowded in here 🤣❤️
This is fantastic, it's very helpful to see you distilling out some essence. I got lost somewhere after the 10th episode of the meaning crisis, and I was feeling quite daunted in starting again. After this I will try and give it another go.
Glad to hear this, hope you enjoyed. :)
This is probably the best compact summary of JVs work that I have seen. Thank you Eric for your l contribution to this. You really enriched John’s description with great examples and insight. Hamlet, zen, sports this is so stimulating. Love it.
High praise Matthew! Thank you so much, I really appreciate that. 🤘
Excellent distillation! I am going to use the description of circling/diologos at the end as a starting point for Rebel Wisdom group discussion.
“A flowstate of distributed cognition, in which we come to uncover the serious play of perspectival and participatory intimacy”
Cheers Stephen, thanks for being here. 🙏🏻
I've been looking for a single video to send to friends that can concisely explain your project, John. This might be the one!
Yes I think it is.
What is truly remarkable is it that you've gotten so close without suffering great tragedy. Appears that your relentless, yet seemingly effortless authenticity is key. Never have I seen someone, living, who has come so close. I have something to offer, would like to communicate. Will email you at some point, will add references for security.
A dramatic revision/re-framing of addiction as a 'disease' is urgently needed... good to hear that the interviewer seems to at least understand what addicts are up against... I am an addict and have been so since 1990... Mark Lewis's work may be my next reading material seeing that it is so highly recommended by you, Mr Vervaeke. Another wonderful interview.
This was one of the best episodes. Thank you both.
Amazing to hear, and thanks for tuning in. 🤙🏻
Interesting as always. A good summary of John's work.
I shall offer my interpretation of the problem. (within a narrower frame than John's)
In my model, the differential of ourselves with respect to time are feelings. These make the building blocks of how we speak to each other (and for our cognitive experience facts are just assured feelings). We differentiate feelings to get attitude. Then differentiate our attitude to get spirit. This is to give us a notion of 3 different levels to depth to ourselves and how they relate to each other.
We require a long-term understanding of ourselves to sort out meaning in our lives. Our spirit is the most comprehensible long-lasting aspect of our selves, hence the call to spirituality. We want to relate feeling (1st derivative) as that is how we currently speak and comprehend the world with the spirit (3rd derivative).
Yet cognitive grammar fails us, Spiritual concepts have a purity so are unwieldy to mould and attach to. The concepts from the feeling end get approximated to the nearest concept. When we are connecting feelings to derivatives of themselves, the concept approximation risks connecting to itself, resulting in misunderstanding.
John has a far more detailed picture with more phenomenological connection points and is able to infer a network of connections elsewhere.
I know others get round it, with enough comprehension, but it still bothers me.
My first thought of a solution is to widen the cognitive grammar at the spiritual end. Why should spiritual concepts not exhibit the same flexibility, as feelings?
But if I was to go further with my derivative depth model and take the derivative of spirit I think I get anguish (hope sustains spirit, but anguish I believe is the experience of it changing), which is a state people want to get away from. So to me, that is the reason the language for spirit seems so idealistic. If it extends beyond itself, there is fear. And yet, locating anguish is important to our meaning...
Thanks to you both! Yes, as John says, you need love.
"How you play is what you win." Ursula LeGuin
Wowwww. Great (and surprising... or not) to see you here, brother! Much love from The Netherlands. ~Nick
So wonderful to have this resource available to share. Thank you Eric and John -- I'll be sharing this as a key resource for a long time.
Thanks Eric and John.
Thanks Lee
Thanks for being here!
A wonderful conversation, I'm amazed
Greatest series out there
sooooo refreshing!
This is the most ads I've ever seen in a TH-cam video. They're about every two minutes for the first third of the video!
(If that's the model that works best, fine. I couldn't make it through though. I'll try again when I can use my desktop. Thanks for the excellent conversations.)
I have set it so there are only adds before and after! I do not what is happening. I will check into it.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll repeat it: TH-cam Premium. LOL. Or use one of those ad blocker thingies (which in turn may track you and stuff). But Premium has more benefits than just being an ad blocker. AND it will still support the one whose videos you're watching/playing if they have any ads.
@@johnvervaeke @John Vervaeke The problem may be on my end. It seemed TH-cam was suddenly pushing an unreasonable amount ads in their mobile app, but not in browsers. It was behaving very strangely. Now the ads are gone! I'll spare you further details. I apologize for the confusion.
@@phiswe I recently declined a free trial. Maybe that's why they started with the excessive ads! I may consider premium, but other than this series I only watch the occasional video on TH-cam.
Christopher O No worries at all.
The Muses do not heed the Enlightened Ones. And without the Muse, there’s no possibility of artifice and art. To live in an Enlightened World means living in a world without music.
At 1:58 onward I hear "the journey is the destination" rather than completion, closure and perfectionism
John, you call Guy "the creator" of circling, however I would argue that what he is practicing and teaching was developed in community, not by him by himself, just as you state must be the case for the new psychotechnology
Well said!
Bless you guys. Unfortunately Johns sound quality makes this difficult to listen to. Thank you.
Great! But I always think it would be really cool to have you in a dialog with a lacanian psychoanalyst. It could be really rich conversion.
Yes that was suggested to me today!
Great talk, yes, we need less anti-structuralist, more leaders, strong leaders (Jordan Peterson is right about this, sure there are other hero archetypes, but the one we need now is the one he's pointing at) and more courage. What is touched on here is advocacy against vs. testimony for. We need to, as individuals, be better not worse. If you strike out in anger, you aren't advocating for a thing and you are using your energy up on anger instead of positive change. This is something like a wrong type of protest - which was originally to give testimony for, not against.
Not everyone is living in a meaning crisis, those people are basically just religious. They are also largely ignorant of what is going on around them in the way that you are speaking of here. Sure, postmodern thinking makes people play power and status games, because that is the proper lens for that type of thinking. So that is bad, perhaps postmodernism is a bad thing overall. What you see are people going over to religion, christians seem to be heading for orthodoxy, for example.
I don't think people steal the culture in the way you are stating. I think that the culture gets stolen by working ideas. I think the thought that we just need more wise men to provide ideals for people mimic. This is a doable way to help people transform themselves in a positive fashion. We can win if we each clean our rooms and advocate for the things we believe in the most.
It’s been difficult to get started with Vervaeke because in this and in the first lecture on the meaning crisis, he does not define or describe what he means by the term. At least in this one, he briefly mentions having felt the promise of "connection and meaning" in his early religious life, which ultimately did not materialize in that context. He also mentions wisdom. But there must be broader family, societal and cultural aspects to such a crisis worth describing. Perhaps his books contain this information. Not knowing what problems he’s trying to solve makes the rest of the talk seem shallow.
"Jesus is a midwife helping us give birth to ourselves" - John Vervaeke 2020
Regarding the "angry activist" archetype, it seems a waste of time & energy. If you spend all or most of your time & attention acting against the malfunctioning stuff, you are not creating the alternative (well-functioning stuff) the world may need. Better to create the new ways than to stand there cursing at the old ways. To some degree, creating new ways may compete for resources with maintenance of the old ways, so some recruitment of resources from the the old ways may be needed. Still, it seems better to address the old ways from the position of starting replacement cultural practices than from stopping the old with no proposed substitutes.