Did Linus just waste $50,000?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ค. 2024
- an overly-researched response to • Our MOST Important Pur...
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1,000+ IEMs measured: crinacle.com/graphs/iems
200+ headphones measured: crinacle.com/graphs/headphones
IEM Graph Comparison Tool: crinacle.com/graphs/iems/grap...
Headphone Graph Comparison Tool: crinacle.com/graphs/headphone...
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00:00 Intro
01:55 Context
02:10 TL;DR
02:44 How do measuring rigs work
03:08 Head simulations
03:32 Ear canal simulators
03:40 2cc coupler
05:14 Zwislocki coupler
05:51 IEC60711 "711" coupler
06:01 IEC60318-4 (also "711") coupler
06:27 GRAS RA040X
07:00 Head and Torso Simulator (HATS)
03:40 The Big Three
07:53 GRAS KEMAR
08:38 B&K/Head Acoustics
08:51 ITU-T Type 3.3 pinna
09:16 The New Generation
09:28 Why "711" might be wrong
09:52 B&K Type 4620/5128
10:32 Head Acoustics HMS II.3 LN HEC
11:09 LTTLab's final decision
11:29 Type 5128 vs HMS II.3 LN HEC
11:47 Why use a GRAS KEMAR instead
12:15 Cheaper alternatives?
12:27 711 couplers
12:47 2cc couplers
12:55 GRAS 45CA/43AG
13:06 DIY flatplate system
13:22 MiniDSP EARS
13:39 Binaural recording setups
13:52 Chinese clones
14:37 Why so expensive?
15:30 Caveats and warnings
15:35 Distortion graphs
16:02 Time domain stuff
16:27 Actively update the database
17:17 Sound demos
(For the true nerds, please mentally swap any mention of "inner ear simulator" to "occluded ear simulator" because I'm a fraud that got terms mixed up)
CAMERA: Sony a7S III + FE 35mm f/1.8
MICROPHONE: Motu M2 interface + Neumann TLM 102
SPEAKERS: Neumann KH120 + KH750
MONITOR: LG C1 48" OLED
~ CITATIONS ~
Sachs, R. M., & Burkhard, M. D. (1972). Insert earphone pressure response in real ears and couplers. The Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 52(1A), 183-183.
Burkhard, M. D., & Sachs, R. M. (1975). Anthropometric manikin for acoustic research. The Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 58(1), 214-222.
Larson, V. D., Studebaker, G. A., & Cox, R. M. (1977). Sound levels in a 2-cc cavity, a Zwislocki coupler, and occluded ear canals. J. Am. Aud. Soc, 3, 63-70.
Snaidero, T., Jacobsen, F., & Buchholz, J. (2011). Measuring HRTFs of Brüel & Kjær Type 4128-C, GRAS KEMAR Type 45BM, and Head Acoustics HMS II. 3 Head and Torso Simulators. Lyngby, Denmark: Technical University of Denmark, Department of Electrical Engineering.
Jønsson, S., Schuhmacher, A., & Jørgensen, H. I. (2018). Wideband impedance measurement in the human ear canal; In vivo study on 32 subjects. arXiv preprint arXiv:1811.03389.
IEC 60318-5:2006
IEC 60711:1981
IEC 60318-4:2010
IEC TR 60595:1990
IEC 60318-7:2022
Recommendation ITU-T P.57 (06/21)
Recommendation ITU-T P.58 (06/21) - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Also yes I'm still waiting on the B&K Type 4620 that I ordered a couple of months back... It may not be 50K expensive but still probably-someone's-annual-wage-expensive
So yeah, do support my sponsors and/or my Patreon because they help fund projects like these without having to resort to crowdfunding!
Are you planning on trying the aria snow edition?
YO LINUS WHERE YOU AT?? HIRE THIS GUY!!
@@augustriandyrizkymaris2894 crin is in sg but linus is in ca so nah
@@augustriandyrizkymaris2894 No I rather Crin staying Crin
@@augustriandyrizkymaris2894 he's in Vancouver, Canada.
They (LTT) do tend to dumb down to cater for the general public but their move to having the lab and this purchase will also give the general public more in depth information which you can only find in enthusiast space. It’s still a win for us consumers regardless.
yes, but even then, if they don't do waterfall graphs i'm going to be malding. soooo. i guess i'm just setting myself up to mald. heh.
even though crinacle says "waterfall doesn't matter" that's not entirely true when it comes to certain professional disciplines, sound design & mixing and mastering.
Their mainstream focus lets them do bigger stuff, I'm fine with it 🤷 I miss tf out of tek syndicate tho 😭
It's not. It's a win for the TH-camrs and ChiFi Companies. Nothing of this is even remotely relevant for the consumer.
Everyone who ever bought an Headphone/Earphone based on measurements and ended up with horrible sounding garbage knows exactly what I mean.
Consumers have no advantage looking at measurements. Most of the best sounding Headphones measure horrible and a lot of painful bad mess measures excellent.
For most people in this Hobbie it doesn't really matter because they don't really listen to music anyway. They buy their gear to listen to their gear but for the People who buy their gear to listen to music, measurements have pretty much no relevance.
@@EliteSniperTV You and me both dude, they had such a good dynamic and aesthetic. Ahead of their time really.
@@Vamp898 These measurements are the tool to help decided purchasing audio gear, especially with these consumer products where mostly unable to test out on the retail shops, only selected few but some just don't have at all and depends where you live. Not to mention, many of these products aren't even available on retail, so you can only buy them online. Not everybody has a friend who has a collection of audio gear for people to borrow.
This gives consumer more informed decision than just being swayed from marketing speak. Which mostly aren't relevant anyways since it's easy to claim "balance sound" or "hifi quality".
I find people actually looking for measurements are the one more likely care about the music, since they care about the fidelity they can get most out from their music collection, it even encourage them to actually acquire looseless and well mastered tracks to really enjoy the music from their better gear.
Most who just buy headphones or IEMs are mostly end up crap ones, wasting money and time. This even limits their genre they can listen since many of the mainstream music will be tuned to at least sound okay with crappy audio devices. That's because they have more money for really master their tracks to work on those, but sometimes that may also limit the creativity on the instruments on the tracks due to having so many layers will easily get muddy tk bad headphones, IEMs or speakers.
LTT has shown Crin's graphs multiple times in their videos. Also given Crin's reputation in the audio space, people clicking on this video probably already know what's up
Also I'm pretty sure they're going to do sound demos anyway because well... dankpods
:yea:
i mean tbf, i think sound demos *can* be helpful as long as its made clear to take it with a pinch of salt and has a reference comparison. for the general viewer, it's a lot easier for them to be able to hear the comparison then just leaving them a graph overlaid onto the neutral target.
@Omega oh of course, but I think they're useful for helping a general audience better understand the tuning of a given headphone/IEM. like i said, it 100% needs to be made clear to take it with a heavy pinch of salt, but i dont think they're useless (especially if the tuning is particularly godawful in some aspect)
how u comment 21 hrs ago
He isn't the only one that does that too. i find it so misleading, the whole "hear the difference" thing, it is something Brian Tong does for instance. I think for the sake of comparison it isn't terrible for changes in frequency response between the two with the knowledge of what your own headphones sounds as a bias but that is about it. However LMG doesn't like to do gimmicky things for real reviews of a products. They may have fun with a gimmick of a product but they are very consumer first from what I can tell and Linus talks about transparency of reviews on The WAN Show often. At the very least if this does happen, like dankpods, they will explicitly say, this is not an accurate test and the factors that make that the case. I like dankpods because he listens to garbage headphones and having the HD six-hundos as reference just adds to the joke. Maybe Dankpods will make a guest appearance on LTT one day after making the jump to Floatplane after Twitch kept letting him down with lack of tech support.
Damn it that Dankpods reference got me good.
THE FREAKISH EARS ON A STAAAND!!!
I love Dankpods, his content is hilarious and has gotten me a little bit more interested in audio quality.
I never would have finished a video like this one if I hadn't seen that Aussie man review things before.
Every dankpods video is a good time yeah
When is the dankpods reference?
@@Mikasks13:21
From what I understand, the LTT Labs stuff is partly to do more detailed non-TH-cam stuff, and also to do contract work (3rd party testing)
Regardless, they dropped 50 grand, so they're not going to use it a couple times and let it gather dust lol
Yeah, one thing with LTT that most people may not be aware of. They actually also open for business to do contract work for other companies. For example they sometimes do production for ads to some companies, considering they already have high end expensive gear that what you expect from a reputable media companies. They will really make use of it
My understanding is there will be a more 'written' based leaning for the labs' output, whether forum based, or similar.
I really doubt that they'll do 3rd party "official" standards compliance type testing since that requires the lab to be certified. That requires a lot of effort, time, and money. I can see them offering services on a "as time permits" based on LMG needs first to floatplane creators though.
Linus said that he's reluctant to go into 3rd party testing as it becomes a huge conflict for them to cover that product in the future.
Well, they don't *have to* do sound demos from an audio perspective, absolutely.
But for the average viewer who won't even spend 10 seconds learning about graphs, yeah they're going to have sound demos for sure.
Undoubtedly. Also, it just make people think that they can hear the difference, thus more engagement points.
Finna see that huge "Most Replayed" bump on that part real steep whenever a new video with audio demo gets released.
What's the point though? By the time the viewer hears it through whatever random device they're playing the video on, and after compression, it's not going to sound like what the headphones actually sound like.
unless the viewer is listening to it through some perfectly neutral headphones or completely flat speakers it could be misleading though
they'll definitely try to explain the graphs in a way people can understand (hopefully successfully). also there is no way the lab hires aren't aware of crinacle. i'm sure they'll relay what's important.
@@EricBentleyW maybe if it used relatively, it could give an idea of how a headphone sounds?
Therapist: Crinacle snake isn't real. He can't hurt you.
Crinacle snake: 7:17
HS!
I think the most important thing for them to do is to always show the graph with like 3 pairs of headphones that people may have heard in that form factor: like apple buds, qc 35 ii, dt770, hd600. Most people get the graph but tell me it's useless without a reference point of something they understand. Then talk about non graph friendly things like detail retrieval so the listener can get a good idea. I'm actually not against doing recordings either, as long as they are shown with context to products people may have already heard.
exactly, for most users, graphs on their own are useless, for general public i think sound demos are more useful than graphs, but only in reference to other headphones, you dont get exact data, but you get a comparison, of course, distorted and mangled to fuck by youtube compression, but in my opinion sound demo like the ones DankPods does tells you more than a graph on its own
HUH-DUH-SEIX HOONDEREDS??
@@MartyMcFly533 I see you enjoy some pods being dank as well.
HerDer Six Hunders ftw.
How did crinacle not start his channel ages ago, hes an amazing entertainer explainer and overall a fun nerd to listen lol.
he did, but then his old channel got deleted
@@diamondarrow4567 I'm talking about 2019
Seriously. Dude is an actual entertainer. He's got wit coming out of his ears!
@@diamondarrow4567 his old channel wasn't old at all lol. Crin was still blogging, writing articles and stuff when inferior chaps like Z has been growing audience on YT with a GoPro strapped on his head.
@@gigihanmandarin he thought he meant this current channel
That last point is the most important; If you want to be known in this part of the industry (or any industry for that matter), you got to put the work in. No overly grand promises, just do the work and show your results.
Super informative! I had no idea headphone measurements were so standardized, very cool stuff!
Why wouldn't they be standardized, pretty much anything you can think of has been standardized to some extent.
@@Daniel-dj7fh so the companies can make 'accurate' misleading claims about their Freq response.
@@Daniel-dj7fh yeah. Even Tea. haha
@@Random_dud31 You'll definitely find EU-reglements on tea somewhere, therefore it is to some extent standardized.
Sure if you live in some hillybilly country this might not be the case
When I tapped the video and saw crin, I rechecked to see if I tapped the wrong video. Then I saw this is not LTT's channel 😅
Really happy with my clone IEC711 and Pinna (GR-Ass) rather than minidsp ears. It's a good value settup for hobbyists. Glad you covered it since I think it's a good middle ground that many can make use of over things like a flatplate or Minidsp Ears
👀Audiophile Jamie, wot hai
@@GeloOfficialPR Hai!!!
you're probably the defenition of hobbyist. i see you so much on reddit doing audio related stuff lol, a good bit is helpful too.
The Sup and the Salad reigns supreme
reddit person
Research is gold. Thank you for the up-to-date information.
You're the first audio professional I find who goes really in depth into nerdy shit and doesn't have dog shit audio for some reason.
It's a plague, and I'm delighted by the buttery smoothness of your setup.
Great overview Crin. Though I must say I expected some stronger language in the "no sound demo" portion. I guess you can save the rant for another video.
ASR does group delay graphs and states (to my knowledge) that it’s useful as it is also showing cup resonances, things that can change just by sitting the headphone a bit different, so not frequencies you’d want to EQ.
No one can deny how much the crinacle contributes to the "hobby" for more lay people and beginners
This was great! Can we get an in-depth discussion on how the couplers can accurately measure like an inner ear when they aren't made of the same materials? How do they determine it is closer from an older standard to a newer standard?
Jesus f*cking Christ, when is cron gonna be a teacher in any of the audio universities? My head hurts from this video over how much info it has.
Glad I found your channel, great mix of straight forward info and personality
Goddamm, this was some efficient and entertaining lecturing. Wonderful balance between comprehensive information and unexpected jokes.
Side note; Crin may actually see a major rise in popularity of this entusiasm for audio continues to grow. Dankpods and LTT will be the gateway drugs
Superbly presented video, huge amount of detailed research made digestible. Very cool that you are giving tips to what could be a direct competitor in your sphere.
Something I would be very interested in seeing, that LTT with their rather huge staff numbers at this point could possibly do that's unique, is Subjective testing of 'phones. Keep it separate to the objective testing, but some things like comfort ratings from a wide range of people, could be quite handy.
/me gives my Marshall Major II's the stinkeye.
Any plans for a ranking/graphs update for headphones with the Edition XS soon?
Please measure the hifiman edition xs :) I subscribed to your pro graph comparison tool and want to learn about FR and my preferences by playing around with the eq but my main pair of headphones are the edition xs
Gonna watch this on the big TV when I get home
RIP Freakish ears on a stand
I definitely clicked on this in my sub feed without reading the channel name and was surprised that it was you, thought it was a collab for a moment, then realized 🤣
Here before Linus...
Also...great video! Im not really into audio stuff too much but do like to know the inner workings of things and this was awesome for me.
really great content. i've been subbed for a while but didn't know just how dope you & your database are! love love love it
Video about the Aria Snow Edition perhaps?
I suspect they bought a full head because they don't just do wearables, they will probably use this for sound bars and surround sound systems too. They are building several anechoic chambers.
You nailed it. Turning dry topic into infotainment.
Cool video. Reminds of a rabbit hole I went down years ago and came out of it none the wiser. This was well laid out and very informative! Thanks a bunch, and part way through the video I realized I relied on your IEM shootouts like nearly a decade ago....
nice subject, i did my thesis on sound diffraction and the Fourier transforms were plenty, the comment on the time domain vs the frequency domain resonated with me
Hah, resonated... x)
Is it possible to use crinacles own ear canal as a mold?
Why you managed to make your sentence sounds like making a sex toy? Your Japanese name makes it funnier haha.
The audio quality in this channel is so good. Like I instantly could hear the difference dear god I can never go back to the swill other creators put out
That Neumann mic is several thousands dollar. So yeah.
Personally I would like to see you and LTT measure 3-5 identical headphones/IEMs so we can get a sense of how the two measurement rigs compare. And by identical I mean one party measures all of them, puts them in a box and sends them to the other party.
Crinacle, Question. Are things like soundstage, "attack" timbre and others measurable by methods like multiple simultaneous frequencies for things like timber? Is soundstage relative the decay of resonant waves? Do we actually know how to quantify any of these things? Thats my biggest question.
"The numbers Mason, what do they mean!"
Now I know all of this. I will put that in my vault of information I will never have a use for.
5:27 He was born in second Polish republic in 1922 (in the city of Lviv which is modern day Ukraine) and apparently he was around up until 2018 so yeah quite an impressive number I'd say, I'm Polish myself but I've never actually heard of him... This might be just the time to do dig a bit deeper into his history
Surprise surprise he was also the grandson of Ignacy Mościcki (probably the most notable person in the history of the mid war Poland except for Józef Piłsudski) and after the Nazi and Soviet invasion he fled Poland, first going to Romania then Switzerland where he studied for 4 years and in the end he landed himself an assistant position at Harvard. And that's basically all there is on Wikipedia on him lol
Nationalism is gay
You should be proud 😘😍
Hey Crinicle! I need to hear your thoughts on the Edifier STAX Spirit S3! Are they worth the money considering they are planar and wireless??
AHHH WHY DOES THE MUSIC LOOP LIKE THAT
18 minutes. 18 minutes packed with so much information I feel like sitting through a 3h presentation just half-way through. Crazy. Thank you
What would you recommend for someone who is interested in measuring their headphones and IEMs generally but has no experience? I want something more accurate than just shoving a mic in some foam, but don't want to spend a thousand+ dollars. I just want to get frequency response graphs on the headphones and IEMs I own to compare.
Should mention that I was able to follow most of this video, but have no idea how one would get started (e.g. what software is needed, how to interface with my PC, how to set things up, etc.). Any resources and recommendations on a budget would be good.
@UCIV1OBxFvNTi6GbI8HWCGlA Thanks. Appreciate the information. Will have to look into that on Aliexpress. Any tips on software to use and/or links to resources on how to set up with your computer?
Great video! I was glued to it for the whole time.
They mentioned this video in this week's Wan Show. I followed you before they mentioned so them mentioning you just further validates your obvious expertise in this tech space ^-^
quite interesting. would love to hear more on ltt's progress as it comes
New audio lore video just dropped, let's go.
Hi Crin, can you measure Fidelio x2hr and Fidelio T1 (TWS), I guess the first is in pair with HD650 and the second one is something you have never heard before (even better than most of IEMs on cable). Thanks.
Thanks crin... need to watch this again. It was like a machine gun...
So you are saying that the ASMR girls need to up their game?
Interesting!
A whole new level in my understaning of binaural audio and headphone stuff.
I've been making mics since 2015 and still learning thanks to you!
This video was way more detailed and in depth than I was thinking it would have been.
Typo at 15:00
Crin r u gonna rev the Thieaudio elixir?
I always wanted to ask, but could you do an audio frequency response measurement of the 3M Worktunes? I have been seeing a lot of people I know get fascinated by them and I was wondering if you could put some information about them out there. They're supposed to be noise cancelling bluetooth headphones that are used in high noise areas or something.
They are actually hearing protection with headphones inside them. They don't use ANC.
Are you going to make a video about the new moondrop aria snow edition? just wondering
Józef Zwisłocki - read as something like Yoozef Zveeswotsky
That was so sick. Thank you for all the research, nerd vomit is very welcome with me and you taught me a lot today!
Bro just summed up weeks of research under 20mins
bruh.
ok but is there a reason i cant just make a silicone mold of my own ear and cram it in a foam block?
Unless you're willing to make a mold of your entire ear canal and potentially destroying your eardrums in the process, it's not going to be quite as accurate as the mentioned ear simulators.
Crin, you say pinna gain is to compensate for the external part of the ear (aka ear gain). So wouldn't it make sense to not have a raise pinna gain section in the tuning of IEMs since the IEM by passes this area of the ear??
Most IEMs are tuned with raise pinna and therefore require raised bass (in most cases) to make it sound neutral. A flat tuned IEM would sound natural and bassy...
I love how in all this time it doesnt seem to have been used a single time by LMG. Much like their cable tester to test HDMI cable singals and such - They used it a single time and never brought it back again.
They don't have it yet. The one they used for the video was a rental. They're still waiting to get their own
What was not pointed out is the obvious. Good frequency response could easily result still in crappy sound same with speakers, IEM and headphones. You just can't replace assessment of music sound quality with this simplistic tools that are more than inadequate as it makes you appear your on to something when your not. Maybe that's why there are so many products with dysfunctional tonality still. Even the high end to ultra high end speaker market those above USD 10k has them unfortunately. One simply has to strike the guitar, piano instrument or speak and you'll hear it. Most won't let you distinguish between mass production musical instruments with those handcrafted by craftsmen recently or in the past ie Stradivarius and the like. We listen with our ears not our eyes notwithstanding the immense effort done by Crinnacle but frequency response is really just a side bar when you assess sound quality. It's a very rough tool but a tool nonetheless so hoping measurements don't rule the final product or we will continue to get mediocre sounding products made probably by those without passion for music .
Yayyy LTT is another channel I've been watching since my first pc, nice to see a little bit of a crossover (although it's not Collab)
Wow didn’t know it was so in-depth
I hope we see a collab or 2 between you 2!
Will you be venturing into the speaker measurements anytime soon?
Loved this video. I'm at the stage of the hobby where it's calling me but I'm scared because I don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes and I don't know if I have the time.
The only thing I disagree on is the time domain section. Sorta.
Some headphones (Hifiman Sundara's for example) have AUDIBLY terrible spectral decay, and so if you listen to any tone that cuts off, you will hear an inevitable short reverb to it. It definitely has a noticeable effect on the sound, and a spectral decay waterfall can show that really well.
The small differences and details between these measurements don't matter so much, but there are sometimes big differences that matter. So maybe don't show it for every headphone, but if it's got a noticeably bad spectral decay, perhaps mention that.
what do u think is better the dt990 250omh vs the kz x crinacle?
Yo HIT 100K AGAIN!!! GOOD SHIT 🤙🏻🤙🏻 the grind continues to 1 mil now
6:21 i wish there was a short part of information like that more often, that actually very interesting.
how do u make ur microphone sound so nice bassy and crips over that distance?
Why do i know that music in the background
Is that from club penguin
It rings such an obscure bell
The ears on a stick are fine for someone like dankpods. We expect more from our Crinicle. Thanks for helping us understand just how much is involved.
Yeah it works for Dank since he mostly uses them to compare garbage/gimmicky headphones to industry recognized titans. So you can hear the difference in quality easily, even a normal person will be able to tell. For anything more they're not enough. But they make for great content.
Thank you for this very informative video! This was a great learning experience
Congrats on reaching 100k twice now.
i hope linus sees this amazing video dude
I like peanuts.
Crin just hit 100k...again. Nobody is surprised lol. The formula he has works
13:20
dankpods reference?
A dankpods "freakish ears on a stand" reference, in a ltt centered video made by the headphones data guy? The Linusverse is slowly unravelling.
100k special vid? when
The 711 coupler might be highly specialized but it's not so mechanically advanced as some might think. The specs on how to make it is even stated in the IEC60318-4 standard. Clones of the 711 coupler, such as CrySound CRY711, is basically indistinguishable from B&K/GRAS when it comes to transfer- and input impedances.
Why do you always have the club penguin fishing music playing?
I was literally writing a comment to ask your opinions on the "freakish ears on a stand" when the words left your lips. Good man.
Knowing LTT, there's a slim chance that a collar could happen. Regardless, thanks for the context on LTT's Lab Vid. I was wondering about your perspective.
I love the club penguin ice fishing music just looping in the background lol
If Linus is doing headphones reviews and measurements, Crinacle should start a keyboards reviews channel... Oh wait...
anyone else curious about how a type 5128-B would sound as an asmr mic (a massive waste of money) compared to 3dio or ku100 ?
YOU HIT 100K TWICE!
Bro 10/10 thumbnail i straight up thought i had clicked on a linus video.
For anyone new from LTT, I watch tech youtubers (the real ones) and keep in touch with audiophile communities. Uncle Crinacle is to LTT for audio what GamersNexus is to UserBenchmark for tech. Credible and test data-driven.
No idea who and what GN or UB are. It's okay don't need to explain to me. I'm not even bothered to type them out into the search bar.
@@gigihanmandarin alright
@@gigihanmandarin but...yet you took time to type this?
@@gigihanmandarin W-why did you bother to make your comment??
@@SahiPie Why did you need to comment about my comment? Welcome to the internet.
Using zombie heads is best if you can get them but watch out for your fingers!
hi Crin, great stuff you are doing.
was wondering if you could do measurements of common iem/earphones you can in retail stores compared and compare them against the best in class ones.
Never seen or heard you before but your microphone quality makes me trust you. Oh think I've seen your name on forums before though.