Stellaris - Should You Build Gene Clinics (The Answer May Suprise You)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- Gene Clinics, that 10% bonus to pop growth seems soooooo inviting. But should you really build one? Is is really worth your time? Today we're going to find out if that's really the case.
for a more in-depth discussion regarding this subject, check out this thread. forum.paradoxp...
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Video Title; Stellaris - Should You Build Gene Clinics
Previous Video; Death Cults Are Coming to Stellaris (In a New Species Pack)
Stellaris Copyright © 2020 Paradox Interactive AB. www.ParadoxPlaza.com
#Stellaris #Mechanics #GeneClinic
The answer is...maybe
It depends...
@@A_Spec Maybe..
Could be
Yes, but no, unless...
mayhaps...
Are you as a ruler of your Empire personally comfortable saying to a greiving parent: we could have saved your child in a gene clinic, but Aspec told us not to build one.
Yes. Just like that easy, barely an inconvenience.
Aspec: "Gene clinics are kind of absolutely terrible"
Me: "Haha list of growth bonuses go brrrrrt"
IKR when you get the adaptive, rapid breeding, fanatical purifying, growth promoted(through consumed Xenos), gene cliniced, cloned Space lizards
@@Jay_Johnson I for one prefer the Devouring Swarm tactic of "hakhak spawning pool go zerg rush"
Literally printing babies
With genetic engineering gene clinics are pretty decent option.
@@Hankalakalakeitto they really aren't because with genetic engineering you have cloning labs which are just better and don't cost pops
Stellaris, the game you should play with Excel on the second monitor to optimize your economy.
Technically that's every game though.
@@A_Specespecially every paradox game
@@vitaliitomas8121 Not when Excel is built into the game
*laughs in Victoria 2 UI*
Welcome to EvE
Ever played satisfactory or factorio. You spent more time with excel than with the original game
Aspec: Instead, build a robot assembly plant.
Me, playing a Fanatic Spiritualist Empire: V I S I B L E D I S G U S T
What do you mean you're not Cylons?!
Bot plants provide zero amenities and early game, the bots can only farm & mine. So even for a fanatic materialist you are right to build gene clinics for the amenities to fix stability issues.
I usually run bots on my spiritual empires whenever i have set up my borders. When i have less use for influence i tend to ignore pop approval abit.
I just build robots and avoid going for synths since that's what can become really fucken problematic
Me playing stellaris: I wonder if gene clinics are useful?
-Aspec uploads a video about gene clinics-
The emperor is listening to my prayers
All hail the Man-Emperor of mankind!
I see Manclessiarch Decius is quite successfull with the spreading of the new revised teachings.
Unfortunately he repeated analysis which is plain wrong ..
Amenities are required and gene clinics provide just enough to help clerks in early game. If you need unity build a proper unity building not a Holo-theatre! This is particularly likely on planets with impaired habitability
Baader meinhof phenomenon
@@RobBCactive They're also really useful for getting up over the 10-pop hurdle for getting the first capital building upgrade, which doubles pop growth. Building one as the first building on a new colony gives it 10% bonus growth, yes, but for about 30 months it actually gives 60% bonus growth. And that's assuming 100% habitability. It gets better the worse the planet is.
"Robot Assembly Yard, a noobs trap or a pros best friend? Who knows. Let's find out."
Pro’s best friend. Pop growth is king!
@@The_Murder_Party say that again in tegards to gene clinics.
@@DzinkyDzink Either ur playing robo and dont need gene clinics, but absolutely need assembly plants or youre biological and 10% pop growth look good when you have rapid breeders, fan xenophobe and inward perfection and migration to the planet. Also add fertile to that if your going bio ascenscion. If youre not doing any of that youre not minmaxing anyway so its irrelevant. But even then youd still build robots, since even 2.3 flat pop growth are insane.
@@sumarbrander3354 For military rushes, youre definitely right (early game alloys), since there you get your pop growth by conquering, you just need to max alloys asap.
For most kinds of tech rush, they are good, since ring world and void dwellers dont need the building slots. Technocracy gets its early game boost by having as many science directors on as many worlds as possible and getting them to 10 pops fast, so assembly plants are important.
Also for egalitarian technocracy, its nice to have them on your homeworld to counter migration.
But youre right, you can delay them, depending on build, until you take your second ascension perk.
Also, im having the impression, that Aspec, playing this game since god knows when, has actually very little idea on how to play it competitively.
Nick Dzink thing is, gene clinic is two jobs (w/higher upkeep) for like... .3 of a pop or something a month, robots is one job for 2.0 a month, return for investment says yes.
I love the background dubstep blackhole effect you started out with, 10/10
Wub wub?
@@A_Spec like the Worm tells stories about empire ruling.
@@A_Spec what wubs will be
What will be wubs
You forgot to add "real emotional, no clikbait" in the title
Reason 4 will blow you away.
I play roleplay a lot, so I usually build them because I care about my people.
Yeah, and you can only build one per planet, so it's not that much of a sacrifice. It may not be optimal, but it's not a real problem. :D
@@shorewall If you are to divide the slots of a planet and assign a surface: Yeah, you build one clinic, of the size of Belarus... ;P
@@josecorchete3732 I mean, if you really want to imagine in roleplay terms what it's supposed to represent, it's not really just one gene clinic but many spread out across the planet. Sometimes I wish the pops weren't as vague in how many people they represent, it'd be nice to know in certain terms in reality how many citisens are in your empire
see that makes sense XD
@ Well I like that they live this part to imagination. Depending on what you think your race is, one pop could be several thousand individuals, or millions.
Aspec: Pops. Are. Life.
Me: Yes, that is what pops is.
What about undead pops?
Is this a Terminator reference
What is this, ADVENT propaganda?!
It’d be Xcom propaganda... ADVENT is all for it.
Commander gather the rest of the squad members we have work to do.
@@Kjrov and don't forget , we will be watching.
What? You want to be liquefied into some weird ooze the Elders are using to create new overpowered bodies for themselves? :P
Gene clinics. The way I can justify giving people amenities when I'm not running a slaver empire XD
Completely agree,first make robots, then gene clinic for amenities, and the slight increase of pop growth until I max out the planet
@@truthert I see that we both have similar builds XD
Well, if it works, it works
Ah a man of culture as well
@@truthert kinda loses to a holo theatre in effectiveness though. Especially on less habitable worlds.
I agree they're not worth it in the early game, however I tend to use them a lot when setting up new colonies in the mid to late game
i just use the cloning vats, bigger bonus - doesnt require pops or resources
@@louischamberlain8636 why not both?
Louis Chamberlain I find doesn’t require pops a bad thing half the time lol. They took our jerbs!
Not mid, Late game.
The T2 building with 5 jobs and 25% bonus is a beastly win more option. I build it one of the last to boost up immigrants for resettling.
Other than that it loses to both Robot Assembley and Holo Theatre.
@@louischamberlain8636 you only get cloning vats with the ascension perk, with that they become my first building, so I can upgrade the admin and build bot assembly right after.
Early game, I want usually build bot assembly first, but a gene clinic may be useful right after upgrading the planet admin employing the ex-colonist. Or the other way around.
Sometimes you need just enough amenities to fix stability, add trade value and boost basic district production.
I've always went for them because of the amenities, after the robotics ofc, if I don't really need more than that might as well get the free pop growth as well, if I end up needing more amenies I end up replacing the clinc
Your strategy is the correct one, the Stellaris "experts" who put this analysis about don't understand economics. In fact "just enough" amenities plus pop growth is optimum.
Holo-theatres make too many amenities and not enough unity to make sense. Unless your faction has no trade or clerks you are better with a unity building.
Holo-theaters do not make 'too many ameneties'. Surplus amenities do give a bonus. The only time I don't actually use holo-theaters is if I'm playing a spiritual empire with temples.
Let's say you have 5 planets, each of which has 1 building slot "spare". You could set up 1 Civ Industry to generate 12 consumer goods, 3 Science Labs (-12 consumer goods, +24 to each research), and 1 Alloy Foundry (+6 alloys). At the cost of 24 minerals per month.
OR you could build 4 Gene Clinics and 1 Civ Industry, netting 4 of your planets 10% population growth, with a surplus of 4 consumer goods/month, at the cost of 12 minerals per month.
Those Gene Clinics will take 100+ years to pay off, during which time the other approach will generate an extra 29,000+ of EACH tech type.
I know (hands down) which of those I'd rather have. +16 pops or 15-20 more techs. Especially if those techs let you get further passive (always on) population growth. Or earlier access to megastructures. Or getting your gene sequencing techs 10-20 years earlier. Etc.
For Gene clinics to be good, they need to break even in 10-20 years, not 50.
I'll absolutely build Cloning Vats. But never Gene Clinics. There's just too high of cost.
@@RobBCactive Having 'too much amenities' isn't always particularly bad, especially if your on a habitat, ringworld or Gaia world. Immigration and more importantly refugees select their planets based on habitability, free housing and amenities. Once you have a habitable planet with free housing (and free jobs if your attracting immigrants and not refugees) you can't really do more than that but what you can do to weigh your chances of attracting pops even more in your favour is stack shit tons of amenities.
@@scottsnelling5610 amenities have large effects crossing thresholds, I saw immediate pay back building a gene clinic, because the whole planet was more productive. The whole pay back argument is totally bogus as it ignores amenities produced by an amenity building.
What I suspect is empire types have different optimum buildings, so it can be better to build a holo-theatre than a gene clinic but I do not see this in my games. In fact I regret holo-theatres as they solve a short term problem better fixed by more flexible clerks and planet admin upgrades plus investing in art.
Later upgrading holo-theatres back to gene clinics is a smooth process without production losses, the unproductive entertainers become medics producing plenty of amenities and helping pop-growth meaning 10 colonies with them have pop growth of 11 with holo-theatres. Following this video I experimented and tracked the numbers carefully, the cyto-clinics give more growth use 5 jobs, which otherwise would be clerks, so the cost of +0 75 is the trade value.
Empires which have trade, can afford art and fairs, which give planet/empire amenity, pop-growth and direct happiness bonuses.
Megacorps can build an executive retreat in a branch office, for a similar effect to a resort world.
There's lots of better ways to generate amenities than holo-theatres, but I suspect people who gear up for a military rush dislike gene clinics as they want to unemploy 1 entertainer and the excess enforcers to maximise production workers.
@@CM-db5cg immigration pull has emigration pull elsewhere, without migration agreements and mixed pops your migrants suppress growth on the mature world. That's actually an argument to put a gene clinic on homeworld mitigating pop stalls if clerks fill medic jobs.
With gene clinics, when at habitat building phase (which many suggested as better alternative) the main planets have huge amenity values, because is generated by other sources like administrators.
Of course in habitats I put in clone vats and bot assembly too.
At the game stage I can start building habitats, I already have 5 extra pops compared to the holo-theatre solution.
The general case made against gene clinics is fallacious, based on a spurious "pay back" argument ignoring amenities
I always build gene clinics on my lifeseeded Gaia-world and my planets that are going to become Ecumenopolises, 22+ district Relic worlds, Ringworlds, and as early as justifiable (when I start going negative on amenities). The Amenety bonus combined with the one from the Monument keep you positive for a long time, and you also get the extra pop growth as an extra bonus.
Facts
What about your regular planets?
@@iqbalindaryono8984 not worth on those. Archology project planets maybe. If you have a habitable object that basically has no boundries on how many pops it can have then built it.
Is there any good on having amenities anything above 1? Or I can Just have 1 and "be happy"?
@@dinamosflams you get extra happiness
I'd be careful about setting them up on recently conquered primitive worlds. They do have tendency to be firebombed and/or raided by local paramilitary ex-oficial forces.
Damn those local ex-official forces, flying around on their giant flying ship.
Missile go zoom zoom boom
@@A_Spec Flying around on YOUR giant flying ship.
What I always do is that at some point during the early development of a planet i need more amenities. Early game there are basically two options: gene clinics and entertainment centers. The thing with entertainment centers is that I almost never use all the amenities that they offer, only marginally contributing to stability. So instead i build gene clinics. using pops that would have been used anyways and sacrificing some amenities for pop growth speed. As later on you get lots of amenities from clerks and stuff.
Ye but unity tho
Not marginally. T1 Holo gives almost max happiness boost on a 80% world and it is big.
You can disable 1 entertainer job in that case.
Or just disable one job and have that pop do something productive? Of course holo theatre is inefficient if you have it staffed to the brim early on. But it is still a better option than the gene clinic since that leaves you one more pop instead of using 2 pops for a miniscule pop growth bonus and a very small amount of amenities.
You can play how you like but it is a fairly big waste of time and resources outside of rp purposes of being a benevolent empire.
That is correct, the entertainer/culture districts in habitats are balanced better, under many conditions gene clinics sort stability, give world bonuses and the arguments about wasted pops are fallacies.
You either employ 5 clerks, 2 medics or 2 entertainers and I rather have an additional unity building that adds soceity research or the corp culture adding trade value than inefficient wastefully expensive Holo-theatres that burns a slot to generate excess amenities.
Do some analysis yourself and you soon find errors in the arguments against gene clinics, which provide just enough amenities.
An alternative is 5 clerks but often organics are in short supply early game or the 2 entertainers, which are equally expensive and don't promote pop growth or enough unity to be worthwhile
Clinics can be upgraded to +25% population growth AND consumer good, come on Aspec how can you say no to that?
Well technically 1 worker gives 5% growth, so u went from 2 for 10% to 5 workers for 25% growth, based on wat aspec pointed out, is it rly tht great?
@@THEDARKSIDE95 It's wrong to focus just on the pop growth. The extra ameneties helps you to not need a theatre for a very long time.
That's just the same problem, though. You go from subtracting 2 pops for a +10% bonus as described, to subtracting 3 more pops on top of that for the listed +25% bonus. It's actually even worse, because all you're doing is setting yourself back again and needing even more time to break even.
@@LuckystrikeNQ Very long time? I'm on a phone so can't really do math, but iirc Holo Theatre allows you to build 2 extra buildings before you start running into amenities shortages on a 80% habitable world without Charismatic trait.
And from then on it is not a long way from 40 pops and upgraded Capital that allows to push the second or T2 Holo Theatre even further.
Gene Clinic as a replacement can't compete.
@@KaptenAmurika on a fully populated planet it's a win more option for boosting pops for resettling.
Gene Clinics is one of my favourite buildings. Whether to build them is always an interesting decision with considerable opportunity cost as opposed to something like robot assembly. The situations when they are good coincide very well with the times when they are flavorful.
That is the best point I've read here! The game to be fun, relies on meaningful decisions .. things like +10% ship fire rate that people often love are red herrings as +10% economic productivity has more effect overall and allows a fleet with +10% ships. They over focus on cost savings and ignore productivity effects and the diminishing utility of money.
Most of these buffs can be compensated, the bad building is actually Holo-theatre which always wastes untradeable amenities and fails to generate a worthwhile amount of unity.
The real strategy in game is identifying the bottle necks and finding ways of widening those, which might involve alliances and diplomatic subtlety rather than just building alloy foundries everywhere.
Its gonna be soon 1 AM so I'm really not in a mood to do a lot of math BUT LET'S CALCULATE IT IN LONG RUN
Let's say we talk about planet that has already *10 pops* which means Lvl 2 Capital.
To get all buildings open planet need *75 pops* which in our case is going to be *65 pops* .
Planet that has Clinic at this point is upgrading it to 5 work places which means *+0,75* , that gives us *+3,75* growth a month.
Now to get *65 pops* :
On planet *without Clinic* , with *flat +3* it will take *~180 years*
On planet *with Clinic* , that has *+3,75* it will take *~145 years*
This means that planet *with Clinic* will have *35 years* of having *all building slots* aswell it will keep on making even more *pops* .
I'm going to count only these 35 years only for Scientists (+8 _b_ ase _p_ roduction for Labs, +20 _bp_ for Complex, +32 _bp_ for Advanced Complex), at this point planet *without Clinic* has *62* pops
Basic 3 jobs Research Lab:
On planet *with Clinic* - 30'240 points (3 Scientists x 8 _bp_ x 12 months x 35 years x 3 buildings)
On planet *without Clinic* :
0) *8 years* of growing pops compared to planet *with Clinic*
1) 1st slot opens at *65 pops* , until then production from that slot equals *nothing*
2) 2nd slot opens at *70 pops* which is after *~14 years* that gives us 4'032 points (3 Scientists x 8 _bp_ x 12 months x 14 years x 1 building)
3) 3rd slot opens at *75 pops* which is after another *~14 years* gives us in total 12'096 points (3 Scientists x 8 _bp_ x 12 months x 14 years x 2 buildings + 4032)
Difference of 18'144 Science points
Advanced 5 jobs Research Complex:
On planet *with Clinic* - 126'000 points (5 Scientists x 20 _bp_ x 12 months x 35 years x 3 buildings)
On planet *without Clinic* :
0) Same
1) Same
2) 16'800 points (5 Scientists x 20 _bp_ x 12 months x 14 years x 1 building)
3) 50'400 points (5 Scientists x 20 _bp_ x 12 months x 14 years x 2 buildings + 16'800)
Difference of 75'600 Science points
Final 8 jobs Advanced Research Complex:
On planet *with Clinic* - 322'560 points (8 Scientists x 32 _bp_ x 12 months x 35 years x 3 buildings)
On planet *without Clinic* :
0) Same
1) Same
2) 43'008 points (8 Scientists x 32 _bp_ x 12 months x 14 years x 1 building)
3) 129'024 points (8 Scientists x 32 _bp_ x 12 months x 14 years x 2 buildings + 43'008)
Difference of 193'536 Science points
Additionally for these *35 years* planet *with Clinic* is going to pop out another *~18,5* pops that we can use to fuel another planet.
"But what about an early planet stage? State where you have Science (Advanced) *Complex* all the time, *instead* *Clinic* "
So we were starting from 10 pops which is already a Complex, it gets upgraded at 40 pops which means:
*~83,25* years of Complex running before advancement and *~69,5* years of Complex being Advanced before we reach the *65 pops* on planet *with Clinic*
Formula for this case will be
5 Scientists x 20 _bp_ x 12 months x 83,25 years x 1 building + 8 Scientists x 32 _bp_ x 12 months x 69,5 years x 1 building
Which gives us 313'704 Science points.
Also It's gonna work for these *35 years* which means
8 Scientists x 32 _bp_ x 12 months x 35 years + 313'704
Which gives us 421'224 Science points.
To be honest I was NOT expecting such outcome. It's hitting 2 AM already so I spent over hour on this but it lead us to intressting conclusion:
Outcome in a long run is either almost 20 pops for another planet or in case of resources, in this case Science points - about 2 times more of points on planet *without Clinic* .
I'm not gonna lie I was quite skeptical about the video but after doing the math myself (hoping that i haven't hecked up at some point since I'm almost sleeping when typing) I am now ensured that these Clinics aren't as good as I though and ASpec was right, again!
If any1 really survived reading this up to this point - good job.
Also I hope I haven't hecked up this thing in terms of proper english too much since it's my second language.
I know aspec likes must be enough but I would like to say that I'm impressed and you have my respect from a nameless internet person to another nameless Internet person
Simply: 10 colonies with gene clinics produce pops at the rate of 11, that's a saving of 1,500 alloys and 150 influence for even a starter habitat.
In my current run, I started constructing my first habitat in 2275, I already had overtaken pop wise every other empire, I had 8 gene clinics before I could colonise a habitat.
Not building gene clinics is a trap, created by shoddy Stellaris analysis.
This is the way
When you’ve been is space so long the black holes start talking to you
“Use them to get civilian facilities” but aspec, the gene clinic is a civilian facility
Whey
ASpec yehw
Well yeah but imagine now from PR standpoint. Your pops can save their children from being ginger
So does the soul exist because of genetic composition? That makes no bloody sense!
Ah yes... human eugenics, the forbidden science.
I always build them. You can fight me on this all you want. However as the time progresses, I get more pops of MY OWN species and subspecies, while you get significantly less. It's an investment which pays off.
I don't like synths. They're the easy mode of Stellaris. I like to micromanage, I like to build my species and modify them for planets, along with managing my specialized worlds.
With robot assembly plant you will have more pops than if you just build the gene clinic. Robots are also very good at worker jobs, you can easily specialize them to maximize resource extraction, and more importantly they have 100% guaranteed habitability everywhere. Although they are not as OP as before since they cost alloys to build...
@@arbermancaj2124 then why not go for both? Especially if you dont go all in on ascending to synthetics and just have them as metal citizens.
@@arbermancaj2124 In planets with mostly technician jobs aren´t worthwhile investing into robots, other then that yeah i like robots. Unless i am playing religious.
@@arbermancaj2124 But... why not both? Genetic ascension path is really efficient if you get at least somewhat of a good start. Combine that with various dig sites, anomalies and mods and you have very efficient way of stomping everyone through sheer power of pop numbers.
If you're going for bio ascension, you're very likely also playing slavers. Pops aren't going to be a problem. You have Thrall worlds and slave market for that. All it takes is a bit of science investment to make them into obedient, specialized pops for specific planets. Combine that with army of robots, you're nigh unstoppable without succumbing to easy mode of synths.
Im at point where I just... gave up on synths. They're too damn powerful. They're not fun anymore and they have barely any weaknesses.
Gene clinics themselves aren't optimal. They're not that good. Everyone playing for a while knows that. But combined with other bonuses they make up for considerable boost to your pop growth. More so if you upgrade them later on. Plus since I play my games modded, there's SO MANY other ways to make them even better by stacking pop growth from events, modifiers, special buildings or relics.
The way you play is absolutely your own bussiness, and if you enjoy it, go at it. I never build them and it works just fine
They're built to be later torn down
at best, and even then you're wasting pops, minerals, and society research to even get there.
I might be the odd one out, but I think I'd like the following:
1) you start out with the genetic traits you choose for your species.
2) you have to unlock the others through society research (biology).
3) having different species in your empire allows for genetic special projects. special projects makes the traits that species has available for gene modding.
4) higher tier versions of genetic traits are created. these are only unlockable through society research or special projects. you need the lower tier versions of a specific trait before you can unlock the higher tier through either.
5) gene clinics provide a research bonus to biology tech and speeds up genetic special projects. it's an available upgrade for the science lab (science lab, into society research lab, into gene clinic). still provides the yields of the first two buildings.
6) have gene modding cost minerals and energy instead of society research.
That, in my mind at least, solves a lot of issues with the building and creates opportunities to have more fun with gene modding.
Having it be an upgraded science lab dramatically increases it's value. A science lab is always valuable.
Having genetic traits be unlocked through research, and creating better versions of traits that can be unlocked through research, gives the player more opportunities to be excited for traits. Like a wizard learning a new spell.
Having special projects unlock genetic traits makes things like immigration, taking captives, and purchasing/selling slaves more exciting. Getting new species can help you get new traits, which lead into other traits. When players see a new species with a trait they will get excited and try to do things to get that species into their empire.
Having gene modding cost minerals and energy instead of society research allows players to mod their species a lot more. Plus you're already spending society for the tech research and/or special projects
The same should apply to engineering and physics.
@@DzinkyDzink Agreed. Just adds a little extra variety that I think everyone would enjoy.
But if you analyse gene clinics as they are properly deploying them as a "just enough" amenity building with a dash of pop growth, they actually are well balanced now. Adding more growth or unity bonuses would make building them a no brainer.
The game needs real choices and 2 medics, 2 entertainers or 5 clerks minus 3 technicians output all provide +10 unity but with different side effects and costs.
The developers have done a far better job than the Stellaris Analyst community, it's not heir fault that some players build a gene clinic thoughtlessly first in every colony, that's a player choice.
Actually, if you account for the early arrival of the new pops since they grow faster, and the accumulated production from those pops over time compared to a non-boosted growth, the results presented here are not correct. From a purely production point of view the Gene Clinic reimburses itself fully in a 110 years.
This is not counting the bonus production that you get from the amenities. A simple 2% bonus prod from amenities reduces the reimbursement time proportionally to the available pop on a world. For a 25 pop world, this goes down to 76 years. For a newly colonized planet, with 5 pops, the difference in accumulated production disappears after 88 years.
your forgetting about the snowball affect of resources from an alloy or science building instead, you could have 2 more technologies by then by simply skipping the tech in the first place or you could have made a habitat and upgraded it for that amount of alloys. The gene clinic takes far to long for it to be useful the pop growth is practically negligible and the 2% is also irrelevant, since early game you have three choices, either tech, rush or mass expand but its always the choice of alloys or science. Even if you completely left alone your better off rushing science than that getting pops 10% faster, and this doesn't even count the wasted cons goods that could be used on science, like the cons alone is near 4000 science. within the first 27 months, thats 2 techs early game, base without science modifiers and thats only counting one scientist when you get 2 per building. And even in mass expanding your better off building alloys to fund the robo buildings on all your planets. it quite literally is the worst building in the game. and this isnt even considering that 10 amenities will not always give you 2% more resources, Depending on happiness, its significantly more likely to be closer to 1% based on the formulae in the wiki.
Considered analysis shows the gene clinic is far more effective, the amenities are the reason to build it and they increase stability, add happiness, obtain production and trade bonuses as you notice.
The people arguing for alloys are simply ignoring the effect of stability.
@@tuskular I find that hilarious, I have been doing every tech towards bots and got them, but also every void tech at every reasonable opportunity including starhold but suspect habitats may still be a long way off, though I have done the planetry capital as I think that's a pre-condition. But habitats are moot, I am rolling in planets that I can develop and an unusually healthy surplus in amenities because I used envoys and using Market Place of Ideas are on my 3rd tech tree, still early game.
The presented choice simply doesn't exist, the gene clinic was the cheapest option in society at the time and kept my genetics specialist pushing towards more gene tech, but you're talking about stuff in the engineering tree. I didn't even plan to build a clinic but noticed later that prejudice aside it happened to be the best choice for my first colony.
The analysis that Aspec repeated in this video is simply bogus, as anyone who cares to actually record a situation where they are inclined to build a gene clinic in response to amenity shortfall will discover.
You go from planet debuffs to buffs without the overkill that a Holo-theatre has, freeing up 3 clerks to be specialists or technicians that the basic bots cannot be, until you have droids.
It's Holo-theatres that have been a waste of a slot in all of my games, those things that are supposed to be more efficient
They were much better when they had Unity generation.
If you need more amenities and want unity instead of the pop growth you build a theatre. If not the Gene Clinics are a good early alternative, especially on larger worlds, ecumenopolises etc, and if you plan to stay biological anyways.
Imo, gene clinics could do much more. In a balance mod I use, gene workers produce 5% habitability each as well, which makes them better for low hab planets especially.
Honestly this!
Actually the developers have balanced them, intuitive players using them are correct, the analysis presented ignores the fact that gene clinic is an amenity building so makes a false theoretical comparison with alloy foundry, when the pop growth is a side effect and gene clinic should be compared with Holo-theatre (2 entertainers) or 5 clerks minus 3 technician outputs.
I got planet bonuses from debuffs because of fixing amenity shortage and later housing needs will provide plenty of clerks as the immediate labour shortage and droid tech solves the non-mine/farm labour shortage.
One medic came from the hard to employ colonist after administration upgrade, the other from a clerk and you can move them later in the game to help develop a new colony, when you want the clinic slot for something else.
The Stellaris analysts generally ignore the economic theory of the diminishing utility of money, despite their being abundant evidence in game that widening bottle necks is the successful strategy.
You cannot ignore a stability crash .. planets need sufficient amenities but no more
I use them early for amenities. This generally makes the bonus to growth just frosting on the cake. I usually do not need to build another building for that on a capital.
I am finding the capital doesn't need it, because it came with developed administration, housing clerks and a commerce centre, so a viable gene clinic play needs to do something with the 3 free clerks that don't get to be medics. May be, I could resettle them to become metallurgists on a planet with less labour resources? :) ;)
Yeah there is a big debate on the official forum but... IMO the numbers are not the one we should chose. Let me explain :
- 112 years can be long in the first approach yeah but it is considering that you WILL stay at 3 growth per month and it will never be the case. In fact you will have have a return on investment way more sooner than that. Like for example with Xenophobe, Inward perfection, A new life and a Clinic you already are at +40% growth speed at the beginning of the game. In the end game it is even more crazy and I'm with the psionic ascension not the bio one... here : i.goopics.net/12qVe.png
- If you do it good, you can forget the holotheater in colonies that have less than 90 pops and it's a big win. Here some example : i.goopics.net/nkPRm.png
- The fact is... You are never limited to constructions. Yeah build a habitat can take some time but in the end... You will wait far more to have the ~90 pops and make you habitat running at 100%
- Resources are a soft cap in the game. Pops are a hard barrier (also research) BUT piercing the hard cap of research is way more easy with pops than piercing the hard cap of pops with research
- The limit of buildings on a planet/habitat is a non argument in the recent versions of the game. You have virtually an illimited amount of these with ring worlds and habitats. The number of buildings is again a soft cap.
All of this is a major thing if you will not use robots. With robots... It's a different story but I think it can be effective too. Not the way I play so I can not be sure but there is no reasons.
In Stellaris snowballing is the key.
And snow balling is why you SHOULD build gene clinics early game, when you need +10 amenities, you don't get to build alloy or research indefinitely without fixing the stability problem with some amenity building. Every alternative amenity source costs as much in reality but has different spin off effects. You can redeploy the medics to new colonies when redeveloping the gene clinic slot if you built say commercial zones or similar.
On console edition with the void dweller origin start now, I've found myself making a habitat or two with clone vats and gene clinics while "greater than ourselves" is active. It's not worth doing it too early most of the time because I need to get as many alloys as possible to make other habitats quickly but if I'm left alone for a while, I'll start setting one up going into midgame. It helps make up for the early tech focus and get snowballing
Playing as inward perfectionist on habbitat origin it pays of rather fast and you still can add robots too.
Mind you this empire gets a civic +1 and ascession +2 building slots fast.
I build it for being a amenity building instead with longterm benefits.
Voidborne inward empire can get mediocrity for + 25% specalist & +15% worker output.
And its of the gate since it also applies to your alloy production. So a year 11 finished habbitat is the goal, with one more on the way already.
In the beginning of this video I was like: Hell yeah, you build it! And robot assembly plants, because more pops are always good :D And by the way: I'm not only always build these as the second building after the robot assembly plants for pop growth but also for amenities.
But after this video I see your point and it's quite compelling. Thank you, I'll will try to go without gene clinics in my next run! :)
Ironically, since I am a hard-line long game player you have convinced me that they are slightly better than I thought. I am quite surprised you didn't emphasize the comparison to holo theatres though since in my mind that's the main competitor for the building slot
When I saw the answer may surprise me I thought ASpec discovered some unknown advantage of gene clinic LOL.
Still it's good for RP.
I use clinics and cloning vats for new planets. Once they’re fully established and populated I destroy the structure and replace it with something more important.
I play the long game. The first two buildings I build on a new planet are the Gene Clinic and the Robot Assembly, to ramp up pop growth to maximum aasap, then I replace those buildings with more useful buildings. Yes, there's an immediate opportunity cost, but the growth rate and happiness the Gene Clinic provides gives some stability and allows for snow balling earlier than otherwise.
But you probably get to develop that new colony sooner because you built clinics on previous worlds that gave you more pops sooner than if you hadn't or you had used alternative amenity sources.
You cannot spam alloy foundries, you face insurrection due to stability tanking
I saw a thread on the forum about this and IMO Medical workers from gene clinics should provide +2 or +5 habitability to the world, (making the locals more genetically attuned to the world), rather than popgrowth.
That will always be useful and using less CGs in habitability upkeep means saving slots elsewhere on CG factories.
Would you consider doing a video on the other threads?
Like the Armour is useless one, saw a cool discussion in there on re-balancing ship-classes to be more distinct and have specific roles, like cruisers being fast response ships.
Me: Never build gene clinics
Aspec: pop growth is god!
Me: Builds gene clinics
Aspec: Gene clinics suck btw
Me: Should really do my own maths
I´d argue Gene clinics are bloody worthwhile when you have planets dedicated to pop growth.
Personally i like to have habitats or small planets colonized just for the sake of pumping out pops, therefore those planets get buildings like Gene clinics, spawning pools etc. to crap out more pops to relocate.
One can argue that a Gene clinic is not quite useful on a capital world or a production hub tho.
I agree. I think there some things missing from the arguement ASpec is mentioning.
I'd agree that just based on non-fractional pop, it takes 50yrs for the GC to payback on the pop investment. However, the GC also gets you each pop 3 months EARLIER (assuming no other mods). So you've pop to start producing "whatever" quicker. Over 50 years, that's 54 months of production you get earlier than without the GC...Effectively the production of an "additional" +10% producion on new pops...pretty much "what's on the can". With compound "interest" over an "average" game length of 300yrs, that's not nuthin'...like getting every new building slot quicker. Howeevr, when you hit late game, you may not have the time left to get the compounding payoff for new GCs.
There's also the +5 Amenities bump per Health Worker that wasn't discussed...and Amenities->Happiness->Stability->Resources from Jobs/Trade Value/Immigration Pull. So on a non-specialised resource/trade world (like most early-mid game homeworlds), that can also add up...especially if you're playing the Immigration Game (e.g. Life Seed+Diplo). So on a planet which didn't produce resources or trade goods (e.g. Specialised Science, Consumer or Alloys), the GC is less useful.
I feel like by the time your dedicating planets to resources then you dont really need the population growth as you get your multipliers elsewhere. Easiest way to get pops of you really need them quick is build colonist ships, send them a planet.. And then relocate those colonists.. That is 2 pops each time you do it at the cost of some resources. Or send them over from core..
I just feel like mid game it could be useful to expand quick but late game you end up with huge population excesses.. Draining resources and stability..
The problem is that the growth bonus applies on the base growth, which is 3, as do every other growth modifiers. That means if you pop growth is 6 due to a 100% growth modifier, and you add a gene clinic, it'll turn to 6.3, not 6.6, as the 10% from the GC adds onto the 100% growth from earlier to get 110% increase in growth, NOT a 10% increase of 6, as 6 is the end result of the 100% modifier. If it and/or it's upgraged DID worked like that, or alternatively it increased the base growth, then there will be VERY valid to build these things everywhere. Otherwise, as much as I would've like to build them, it's shit, outclassed by every other buildings in the game.
As for the Spawning Pools, it's 5 times more effective than medical workers. So instead of ~50 years to get a return on investment, it's about ~10 years. So build it. Everywhere. Even if it's late game. Same goes for just about every other pop growth buildings. Just not the Gene Clinic or it's upgrade, sadly.
@@grizzlednerd4521 but the 2 medics pops are not lost, they are amenity producers just like entertainers or clerks. Furthermore you can redevelop clinics and open new ones on new small colonies that need amenities and pop growth, especially where the rate is lower than 3.0 the +0.3 becomes more significant.
if you don't build a gene clinic for +10 amenities, you will have to build 5 clerk or 2 entertainer jobs instead.
@@daddysempaichan but that flip side is, it works in favour where growth is supressed perhaps a 30% faster pop production rate is not uncommon early game when colony pops are pulling from a single home world.
I built a gene clinic today and saw an immediate economic return, 2 clerks could go back to being technicians, 2 new medics generated enough amenities to swing production and trade de-buffs into buffs.
The fixed costs are insignificant, you know you need some amenities, they come either from clerks, medics or entertainer jobs. Furthermore when a colony has developed so you wish to redevelop the gene clinic not needing +10 amenities, then you can resettle them to a clinic built in a new colony to help develop that rapidly.
The pay back on pop idea was fallacious, as if you ignore stability and keep building alloy foundries you will have rebellion or need to declare martial law to avoid damage
I just use Gene clinics to max out the building slots on my planets. Seeing those red boxes of such potential... I need to unlock them all! Efficiency be damned, my completionism demands it!
Exactly, I want to embiggen my empire, not just win the game. :D
I'm 99% sure the overflow growth as the month rolls over to the next *does* start into the next pop when a pop that was growing finishes.
So, one thing I think would be neat, is a later game upgrade or possibly a variant of the genetech ascension perk would be something like 'epigentic toggles'. If you've got a gene clinic, a pop will, slowly over the course of a year or so, adapt to their job, essentially giving you all of the various racial boosters without the micromanagement (maybe not the tech ones). Make it cost 4 points and the gene clinic, or the upgraded version, and I think it might balance out. Probably allow it to also slowly adjust the species planet preference type, including increasing migration bonuses.
This is flawed for a few reasons:
1) What about the +10 amenities bonus? That was omitted entirely in the "56 years" calculation
2) The conclusion that gene clinics arnt worth it because it takes 56 years to pay off is just wrong. If your playing wide, and especially if your playing multiplayer, having an extra pop _for each planet you have_, is a game-breaking advantage. If I told you in 56 years you could have 5-10 more pops (NOT just 1) than your opponents, Id take that deal in a heartbeat. The extra pops you get early have a much much more greater impact than they would later in the game.
3) What about migration? If you have a few dense worlds with gene clinics and are resettling to colony worlds to rush to upgrade the colony ship, the benefit isnt just about pop growth speed anymore since your getting more building slots per planet.
The conclusion that gene clinics arnt worth it only makes sense in mid-late game since clone vats exist. However in early game, id love to see a replay of a game where someone without gene clinics has a higher score in multiplayer vs someone that did build them
Good analysis! Clone vats do obsolete the clinics, but early game there's actually even more in favour of gene clinics short term economically. For the +10 "just enough" amenities, I find the alternative 2 entertainers amenity overkill a disadvantage as slight differences in charisma cause them to be unemployed as the game thinks +155 amenities is an improvement on +152. 2 entertainers give you +8 unity but that's not very significant in my games by the time I have the tech and colonies to build gene clinics.
Then you can recycle medics building new clinics in new colonies and redeveloping the slots, so 2 colonists, some districts employing workers and 2 medics can get you to 10, so planet admin upgrade followed by robot assembly employs the colonist who doesn't get the enforcer job.
The analysis on gene clinics I have heard before, Aspec is repeating stuff as "it is known" with a flawed argument.
I thought pop growth overflow rolling over to the next pop was supposed to have been fixed a while back. Is it still not?
It is fixed. That’s not what he’s talking about.
@@peterknutsen3070 I'm guessing this comment was referring specifically to ASpec's remark at about 1:57 into the video. I can't really think of a different way to interpret that.
Also yes, I checked, and surplus growth when finishing a pop does carry over to the next one.
Thanks a lot I have been playing this game for a lot of time and Been clinics were always the second thing I make
Whelp, guess I have to replace a few gene clinics with robot factories
I'm liking the all knowing black hole that tells me how to not suck at the game.
Thank you very much oh Mr Black Hole
Maybe the Gene Clinics need some other extra modifiers to make them better?
Black holes are experts on sucking so I'm not sure if I should believe it when it tells me how to not suck
I'd say gene clinics are worthwile when you dont have a lot of amenities (which wasnt mentioned at all in the video) and the 10% pop growth is just a bonus. Also don't forget that you can upgrade the building
I use the gene clinics as my amenities building. I think the real comparison isn't between gene clinics vs alloy foundries/civilian industry/research labs but gene clinics vs holo-theaters/temples.
Or 5 clerks .. that's why trade habitats don't need amenity buildings
There's a mod that adds new gene modifying traits (twilightning traits). One of the traits makes the pop useless for any production or research (productivity -1000%), but they reproduce 200% faster. They are also happier.
I used this in combination with other traits to make my species one that lives in cycles - when a critical mass of pops accumulates they mature (are genetically altered to the "mature" preset) they stop reproducing (-200%) and become very productive (+10% to general productivity and +300% to research specifically).
In this, admittedly modded, scenario, I found using the gene clinics actually worth it. The negative pop productivy modifier doesn't affect some resources - like pop growth increase from clinics and other modded multiplicating jobs, for example. Since the "immature" pops of my species don't do much anyway, having them sit in high level gene clinics is a net positive.
I could see an argument for clinics in a high habitable worlds game where the bonus is going to effectively be multiplied by # of worlds, however they replace the holo-theater slot if anything and i prefer the higher amenities increasing stability and the unity output to an additional population per planet every 28 years, however i also play on smaller galaxies with .25 habitables so less planets to amplify the growth boost into an extra pop ever 1 or 2 years, which with resettlement or migration could perhaps be pretty powerful over a long game. Having said that if you can push the growth that high you probably have ~1k or more pops and is an extra 50 over the late game really going to affect anything? Good video either way, thanks for the thoughts Aspec.
Two remarks:
- Robot assemlby is not universally usefull. It gives you materialsit attraction wich may be unwanted. Nevermind the whole AI rights kerfluffle or the management of limited worker only pops!
Robot assemlby is a must have before gene clinic if you can use them, but beyond that the question is not answered. You literally only moved the question one building slot backwards.
- I think I figured out the main issue with the "no Gene Clinic" argument. What do you *use* those extra Alloys for? You may think fleet, but then the question is why you get a fleet? The ultimate Answer is: To get more pops.
Alloys are used to get more pops and planets via conquest, by using your fleet.
For colonyships to colinize planets, wich get more base growth.
For habitats you can colonize, to get more base growth.
*Every single resource* in the game is either for *getting* more pops, *sustaining* more pops or *make use* of more pops (minerals for districts and buildings pops work in).
Hmmmm, well in my games as UNE & CoM, I didn't have trouble with materialist factions; basically I make sure research is done and am open to agreements.
The "no gene clinic" argument is totally bogus because you MUST have ENOUGH amenities or face damaging stability debuffs, sure build the alloy building, but then you'll need an amenity building anyway.
I think the advocates of the narrow Military-Industrial complex are old time players who focus on conquest and dominating the galaxy, rather than the entertaining emergent behaviours of allies and other AI factions.
In Multi-player the culture will determine viable styles (like Poker); if everyone dog piles the weakest fleet empire but doesn't attack their buddies who are losing fleet at war, then a totally different style works to a community where cooperative allies gang up on bullies.
Can we now get a video about how Hive Minds are so OP and how to counter act that?
For context a robot factory is 7 gene clinics working at double the efficiency (because you only need one pop rather than two). They're even better on colonies where the biologocal pop growth has a 50% malice after bonuses.
Here's how I would change the gene clinics (and bio-ascension in general): I would have them remove the malice for being a colony (as a reason to get them early game, I'd up the amenities to 7.5 each and put the growth modifier to 10% for each medical worker and I'd make clone vats a straight up +50% growth rate, I'd give hive minds a mid-game upgrade to their spawning vat (that unlocks with the second bio ascension perk) so they don't fall behind comparatively in terms of the pop growth they can get in mid/late game and an upgrade to sentinel posts building.
The thing is I build them, especially early on, because they give pop-growth AND amenities. Instead of wasting a spot for an entertainment building, I get some amenities and gain some pop-growth on top of that. I almost never build entertainment buildings aside from ecumenopolis planets or low-habitability worlds etc. Gene clinics rely on the compound effect, it is about the long game and late game snowball effect. It also has role-play value, I am a benevolent God Emperor ;)
+1 I fell for the gene clinic hate absolutism, but noticed the clerk strategy can fail especially if as in my current game the planets are mineral poor, whilst Holo-theatres generate wasteful excess. If you do your own analysis comparing gene clinic vs 5 clerks minus 3 technician's output vs 2 Entertainers from Holo-theatre, you'll not regard the clinic as extravagant.
The intuitive players who fix the problems they see in early game colonies have this one right, and it's not hard to see the difference to economy, if you flip a planet to a gene clinic which moved technicians to employ 4 pops as clerks.
If you upgrade planet admin before the gene clinic, then the unemployed colonist becomes a medic, so you disturb production even less and benefit from higher immigration pull and productivity.
Would love a breakdown of the other controversial building, the Autocthon Monument. I build one in my capitol in the early game to accelerate my unity and help with all the "you discovered X mysterious species please waste a few months of society research on translating their barbaric tongue to get some influence" challenges that appear, but it never really feels like a great use of a building slot.
Rather than comparing it to an alloy foundry, you should be comparing them to entertainers, since medical workers provide amenities. I pretty much always build them as my first amenity building, rather than an entertainment complex, so they're really competing with entertainers rather than other stuff. An entertainer provides 10 amenities and 2 unity. A medical worker provides 5 amenities and 5% pop growth. Is 5% pop growth worth 5 amenities and 2 unity? I'd say generally, yes, especially since entertainers are often overkill on amenities.
The "56 years" thing is also acting as if you get zero value from that growth for the entirety of that time. But during that time, you're also getting your pops earlier. For example, at year 28, you have one more pop than the alternative of an entertainer half the time. It works out to being 50% of a pop during that time. Half an entertainer is 2.5 amenities and 1 unity. Is losing that over 56 years worth having 5% growth for the rest of the game?
If you're not in late game, but you're in it for the long haul, rather than using some kind of rush strategy, I think it's usually worth it.
Plus you can redevelop the building, move the medics or let them be unemployed and re-employ .. as you noticed the alternative is entertainers or 5 clerks, so that pay back is total rubbish.
Aspec has repeated material I heard before elsewhere, which hasn't received proper scrutiny.
It's just plain wrong, in my game today, I built a gene clinic and saw IMMEDIATE planetary economic benefit, I don't care about the fixed costs when it's 2250, just the running costs.
The pop growth buff is a nicer side effect than the small amount of unity the holo-theatre makes.
If you go with rapid breeders and just spec heavy into pop growth (new life tradition, growth edicts, etc.), they definitely help give a substantial edge in terms of growth on a per planet basis over just a few decades. Otherwise yeah, they're not worthwhile.
Edit: I guess it also depends on how comfortable you are on gambling on whether or not robot pops'll try to seize the means of production, too. Definitely a lot less dread when it's your own pops you're growing and not a potential army of Robo-Lenins.
i think you are fogetting something: the "replace" button. the pops you assign to gene clinics are not lost forever at any thime you can replace the building and put any number of specialist buildings in its place. what gene clinics are good for is getting a wide empire up and running faster. when you have half a dozen colonies waiting 10% less time for all of tehm to have a productinve number of pops is great. then you just switch the building for another.
additionally it helps if you dont know what you are goung to specialize the planet in yet.
And if your build order has the gene clinic or robot assembly immediately following the planet administration upgrade, you get to re-employ the colonist that doesn't become an enforcer.
But build them for the +10 amenities, the stability improvement can help the whole planet productivity.
Personally when I have clone vats, I never need gene clinics, other tech fixes habitability problems and clerks generate enough amenities as I don't "purge" them.
You are much better with the holo theatre because the unity it produces will help you get bio ascension earlier, which will give you actual decent bonuses to pop growth in the form of clone vats and the advanced trait.
You don't waste 2 pops working, what you do is create 2 specialist jobs with the good and the bad that it implies. Also the RoI is higher and faster than in most other specialist buildings that aren't production focus, and the RoI time that you should give is (100/0.3)/{this is a complex variable that basically adds the production increase and substracts the production from the 2 pops working, something like ([(Y1+Y2+....+Yn) - X] - 2*(Y)) where Y is the Production of a single pop currently working on Z (job that currently doesn't have any bonuses or maluses when worked by ANY species of the civilization), and X is absolute sum of the production of the planet minus the percentage gained from pop growth}, 0.3 is 10% of a base growth of 3 so it only has to be changed if the species has a different one than 3, which should give you a more effective way to actually decide. Also to notice that would reflect more accurately the situation of species that have different base growth rates, like lithoids, where the simple calculation of time investment would show an inaccurate terrible ratio, while the efficiency will display a complete need. Thing is what is your production focus and civilization: If you play using food as currency, you are actively producing in the pop growth branch, so may aswell power it up, same as if your focus is genetics, even though this is longer to explain cause you need to add the Cloning Vats, and the building slot they take, into the calculation.
I would say that they aren't really worthy to focus in: Planets below a ceiling of 18-20 tiles (dependant in the housing factor/s of the species), planets founded 25 years before the Late Game Crisis, and if your species currently include the bonus as a trait (quite literally your entire population work in the Gene Clinics, but you don't need to lose a building slot or the entire production of 2 of them per planet, so may aswell not lose it then). Sure, they will increase your power, cause population always does, but not efficiently. Completely worthy: Lithoids (seriously, build it always), pop farms (planets/habitats made with the sole purpose of feeding pops to Ecumenopolis, Industrial Centers, etc...), Ring Worlds, and Fortress Worlds.
The rest of the spectrum is in the hands of your current species, civilization, time until End Game, production focus, etc... Gene Clinics are clearly not the type of yes or no choices.
Gene clinics are an amenity building; any video or analysis which doesn't consider planet stability in the decision to build a gene clinic is missing the point. The alternative is 5 clerks or an entertainer for >= +10 amenities
I never build them and always do fine.
I knew aspec was the worm.. always watching.. waiting for our views..
i usualy need a building for amenities anyways, may as well get some growthspeed while im at it.
i rather have the clinic than clerks or entertainers.
ASpec, at least in v2.6 of the game, you DON'T lose excess pop growth or assembly progress it gets counted towards the next pop, I just tested to be certain. The only exception is when the following pop is of a different species and even then I don't think you lose the progress. It might have changes in v2.7 but I doubt it.
Weird, I could swear this was the case in earlier versions
@@A_Spec It might not have been, although I'm not sure. I've been playing since 1.1 and I remember that at least in the case of research any excess was "stored" and it counted towards the next project so I think pop growth should have worked the same even back then, but I honestly don't remember. Anyway, thanks for the video, cheers.
lets try and see how fast you can bounce back from gene clinics vs Alloy (we are assuming that there's always a open building slot and don't count consumption and materials for the buildings)
56 years = 2 pop, or 2016 Alloys
28 years = 1 pop, or 1008 Alloys
the gene clinics uses 2 pop so after the first pop you can cut the "theoretic" alloy in half since the new pop is ready to work
aka 1 worker = 504 alloy pr 28 years (or 18 pr year)
so by year 28 you get an extra pop to work at alloy
56 years = 1512 alloys missed (the 56 years = 2016 missed alloys was wrong as it did not account for the extra pop on the half way)
if we replace the gene clinics whit a alloy foundry now to capitalize on our two extra pop advantage we can calculate how long it take to make up our losses and the break point for profit
1512 / (18x2) = ~42 years
so yes after (56 + 42) = 98 years you are making a 2 pop advantage resource output ! (not worth it imo as you losses a lot of early game momentum)
but what if you keep the gene clinic's?
so by 56 you have +2 worker but still 1512 alloy down but you no longer making a net loss.
by year 84 you have + 3 worker but still 1512 alloy down
by year 112 you have +4 workers but 1008 alloy down
by year 140 you have +5 workers and made it even !!!
by year 168 you have +6 workers and made 1512 alloy extra ! a twice the normal production
so 56 years of gene clinics will even itself out at 98 years (aka 49 years pr extra pop)
or a 140 years of gene clinics (aka 28 years pr extra pop)
so I say if you want to go gene clinics consider keeping it for the long run, likely only viable if your into a pacifist Tall game fun.
What about slave empires which have a ton of pops and different species? If you have a lot of different species dont they grow and breed alongside the one you chose to bred specifically (for example having a human being the main pop grower but there are 3 other species growing alonside them) the gene clinic and its upgrade are significant and can boost the pop grow speed for all 4 species on one planet. At least that's how I imagine they would work not actually tested it out but if it works that way, slave empires just have to have one of these on every planet.
Also robot assembly is incredibly good but you can get only 1 per planet and if you have a lot building space you can put a gene clinic and you will as well get a pretty nice 25% bonus growth speed alongside the robots. (If you have the tech for the upgraded gene clinic of course)
Gene clinics are decent on an ecumenopolis or ringworld segment because of how the districts work. There's a few buildings you'll want to make before gene clinics, yes, no doubt, but you're not trading off opportunities for resources as severely as with other planet types. Some will prefer to build an entertainment/culture district and while I get that I think using an ecumenopolis district slot for that can be a waste. I usually build one around when amenities are getting low for the first or second time because while it won't provide as many amenities long term and I will have to produce a second amenity building sooner that long-term pop growth and significantly less opportunity cost compared to gene clinics on regular planets pays itself back in the long run.
As someone who got sandwiched between my two ally empires and a fallen empire, with only 4 habitable worlds and 2 inhabitable worlds, I’m going to build my gene clinics and go for genetic ascendancy because I need lots of pops and to specialize them hyper focused. These are generally suboptimal options but I see the purpose of it.
maybe changing it to 0.5 flat growth per job (1 per building) to make it more valuable
Sounds insanely OP. They are good enough as the are as situational for bigger planets, Ecumenopolises and Ringworlds for players going biological, providing just the amount of amenities you need for some time, while at the same time giving you extra pop growth.
Remember that the benefit of 10 amenities is not just the amenities->happiness->stability->resource production
It's also the opertunity cost of having to take some other action to avoid negative amenities, like for instance placing a pop on clerk.
*So you'll have to do SOMETHING about amenities ANYWAY* and that narrows down the cost difference between gene clinics and the e.g. alloy foundry.
Is that big? No.
But its not just 10 amenities.
I personally think they are very good early on where you need to squeeze as much pop growth as possible on as little slots as possible coupled with the amenities. Get rid of them once you have enough planets for growth slots or robotics.
you forgot to mention C: geneclinic jobs upkeep are luxuries, resource that you primarily get from a another building (which produces 6 lux, so it takes 1/3 of that), competeing with obviously useful buildings
It might be worthwhile to note that those 10% pop growth are a planet modifier, so they can only ever be 0.3 pop growth value, where Genome Mapping is a 10% empire modifier, meaning it scales with planets. ~2k alloy can literally mean that u have more planets, which - even without modifiers - are a 3.0 pop growth boost.
Stellaris is a game of modifiers, so if u wanna know whats good, follow the Modifier Trail.
Building a alloy foundry and then building a habitat with the alloys is way better for pop growth.
I think you really underestimate how much the amenities make a difference. I always build gene clinics as the first amenity producing building and while, yes, holo-theatres are more efficient, they are overkill at the time your colony first goes negative on amenities for all but the highest habitability planets. So unless you manually restrict the entertainer work slots (lets be honest, nobody does), you are producing useless extra amenities, which could be a 10% pop growth bonus instead. The 10 amenities, together with the ones from upgrading your capital building will be enough to stay in the positives for quite some time and allow you to build holo-theatres much later, at which point you can directly upgrade them and replace the gene clinic with another building of your choice.
Clone vats obsolete gene clinics, but they require a research gated ascension perk. I found restricting specialist slots results in unemployed pops, as I haven't the knack of catching them at the 0/2 employment stage; besides in general I convert a colonist into a medic.
Following the anti-gene clinic advice lead to less good solutions with more micro, I was never happy with the late game results of building Holo-theatres (upgrade purely to employ pops), so wanted an option that helped increase organic pop numbers.
People build amenities too soon to just fix negative stability. It is more worthwile to build more special resources production than gain 8 stab.
Think about it, your colony is producing about 2buildings worth of research. Is it better to build 3rd research or fix stab? 3rd lab WILL INCREASE production more than 5%! Only when you start to drop below 40 stab you build The best amenities building: holotheaters.
Random semi-related topic question. Every single time I play the game as a xenophile safe-haven race, and I end up adopting lithoid pops, the lithoids always outpace the pop growth rate of organic pops, with one species even eclipsing my starter race every time even when I've canceled migration treaties. Why is this? What causes this growth?
Do you set your type of pop you want to grow or do you handle it automatically. It'll grow the pop most useful the available jobs.
Habitability +50% in the Lithoid trait. Your planet is always growing one pop at the time. As long as it is automatic and not manually selected, it might choose a Lithoid over others.
"Habitability is a major factor in Pop growth. Pops with very low habitability for a planet will only slowly reproduce or migrate to it or may not at all. Species can be chosen manually for growth if the Population Controls policy is set to Allowed." - taken from stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Population
Even if your starter species has 100% and few bonuses from traits and research, it may happen that your Lithoid immigrant has a higher habitability. And in that case your starter species is considered to be kind of a low habitability one in comparison. And all non-trait bonuses usually apply to all species living on your planet, so they apply to immigrant Lithoids as well. This is where habitability over 100% really applies. Like 80%+Lithoid > 100%+Nomad.
Usually I've just let pop growth be automatic, but I didn't know that lith pops could take priority over other pops with 100% habitability. That's insane, and seems like an oversight of the habitability modifiers to be honest, pushing past 100% shouldn't really be a thing in auto growth pop selection.
@@A_Spec It might not. I had my starter species get priority over the Brain Slug Host pops from the event on the relic world with 7/9 unworked jobs being scientists. Luckily I wasn't playing a species that would allow citizens to reproduce however they want.
@@walter1383 For the needs of Syncretic Evolution and any colonies or conquered planets with multiple species sharing same planet type preference there must be a difference between 100%+ habitability. This can help or hinder your primary species out growing conquered species on conquered worlds. If you RP it and care about it - you must micromanage it. Otherwise, ASpec is right, usually free jobs will dictate the growth - but multiple species can be equally best for many jobs. It is not an oversight.
I build them when i am already satisfied with all productions, and already got a temple in there (playing as spiritual).
Its honestly faster to just build a few colony ships, colonize a few planets and either A: Use them as farms to create new pops that you transfer to grow your capital or B: Immediately transfer the pops that spawn on the new colonies back to your capital, if you get the expansion ascension perk that gives an extra pop per colony this can be very worthwhile, if short term expensive.
But gene clinics are amenity buildings first .. the alternative is other amenity sources which fix stability problems
I'm rarely limited anymore by alloys or minerals, and very limited by influence and pop growth.
Valid points for the first 100 years.
After that you should start to prepare for upgraded clinic +25% and the clone vats +33% to fill up all the ring worlds and ecumenopoli with pops.
I've always thought that gene clinics should generate society research. What better way is there to get information on the genetic makeup of every person in your empire, AND their illnesses? At the very least, it should provide a bonus chance for pops to self-modify and provide a cost reduction for genetic tailoring
Personally I never found a need for gene clinics unless I had a world where I felt I needed that 10% bonus. Normally, if I need pops early/mid game I find rushing colonies or conquests does it well enough. Not sure if it’s a “top tier strat” but seems to work well enough.
Good to know when they are useful though.
There are a lot of science video in my subscription feed and when I saw the video at first I thought it was gonna be about Crispr and gene therapy.
Can't always be a winner
Acclaration for 1:43 , extra pop growth over 100 carries over;if you reach 99 and you have 3 pop growth, you will generate 1 pop and 2/100 growth the next month. BTW: For a overhaul mod, i changed gene clinics for using just 1 job (3 upgrades) and that job provides 5% pop growth and 10% habitability for the planet, that can be inverted based on policies
Quite numerous comments around about how they build Gene clinic / Holo theater to help with their pop growth and amenities. Personaly after thousands hours IG I fully agree with ASpec and here is why: I stopped building those before my last 500 hours or so IG (when playing as a militarist or techie or xenophil). Now using Ecology Mod sure helps, but the habit to *not* build these buildings started for me before even discovering this excellent mod. And all my games end up with over 5k pop all having >15% amenities.
The answer on how to change the building is to increase the bonus to +15-20% and put it on to the building and change the medical workers to produce 1-2 points of green science + amenities. The upgraded lab needs to provide at least 35%. A different way would be to enable it via governmental policy with the clinic improving the output on the planet.
You know, I don't think I've ever built a clinic for the pop growth. I've always built them for the early amenities production and then you can replace them later.
... have i been doing it wrong?
Nope. You are more clever then Aspec.
No, you have been doing it correctly! I think Aspec repeated some received wisdom by a Stellaris analyst without scrutinising the case made for flaws.
Having carefully analysed the true cost comparison in a best case scenario for amenity producing clerks, I can say under decent living standards your strategy is better, but under social welfare in late game then gene clinic workers don't need added consumer goods.
Deploy gene clinics where amenities are low so +10 fixes stability de-buffs and you are happy to have slightly faster pop growth.
@@LuckystrikeNQ it's funny how wrong the Stellaris Analysts can be, because they are obsessed with cost cutting micro, but miss key effects like +10 amenity which could be swinging a planet from -5% production & trade value to +6% bonus. They think is +10 if good, then +40 plus +8 unity must be more efficient then attack the side effect pop growth bonus, when actually most people end up with more than enough clerks and trade value for amenity generation without holo-theatres.
The intuitive players see an amenity problem, decide gene clinic suffices and rejoice in a pop growth bonus side effect.
But this view on Gene Clinics, wasn't Aspec's own work, unfortunately he didn't present counter arguments to the forum consensus, which would actually explain when to build gene clinics and when other buildings like clone vats, commerce centres, resource silos and holo-theatres are better
The answer is: Yes but only in the early life of a planet. Many times you need it anyway for the amenities. And although you loose the gene clinic slot you gain new slots faster from the extra growth which in the long run allows you to recover the science lost from this single slot. The calculation you have to do is not how many years it will take to grow the pops but how many years faster you will get an extra slot. Also you'll need the pops to quickly resettle and populate your ecumenopoly that are quite common with relicworlds. So more pops better, unless your playing 1v1 tiny galaxy.
I can't agree.
It gives amenities which is necessary for any new colony, and also - You can replace gene clinics. The 2 pops working the job are not permanently lost. You can get them back at any point. They can quickstart colonies while you don't have the 10 pops to upgrade your main building and unlock useful buildings. If you go into it with the mindset of replacing the gene clinic when your colony has the necessary amount of pops to actually be worth it, then gene clinics are a lot better than you give them credit for.
Regarding robot assembly plants - Those aren't always available nor are they always great. The robot assembly can be expensive and robots can be rather crap compared to proper pops. Robots can also be worthless clunk in the late-game that you have to play around to optimize your colonies.
Robots pop r OP af
You did a great job highlighting everything that makes Gene Clinics not as powerful as they might naively seem while completely ignoring the reason they're much better than this video implies, partly because your ad hoc analysis was incomplete. Your calculation of the amortization time is entirely incorrect because it fails to account for the fact that a pop finishing its growth sooner is now producing economic value before it otherwise would have. Those earlier pop growth completions start to pay off the sunk cost and eventually even amortize the opportunity cost, however, because you don't necessarily know what jobs those pops are going to work, its extremely hard to try and estimate the amortization time, however it's definitely less than 50 years, and I suspect is more in the 20-30 range. The Robot Assembly Plant is a much better building to make, you are not wrong about that at all, but ideally you should have both (Robot first, then clinic).
I found them to be alright in my inward perfectionist run where I tried to maximize pop growth the clinics with some other modifiers got me to about 7.5 pop growth although I remember a few updates ago where you could push 10 pop growth a month
its good if you're doing inward perfection bio ascension because the modifier applies to clone vats
@ASpec, if you want to max your population, colonise everything? Colonise the good worlds because they're good. Grab the bad ones and remove the pops to good worlds. Then rinse/repeat with the bad worlds for more pops?
Carrying capacity mod goes brrrrr
The Medical Worker job gives +5 Amenities and +5% pop growth, the amenities alone is already pretty decent, it's 2.5 Clerk's worth of Amenities, but no Trade Value, obviously, so let us call that roughly 1 Clerk worth of value (even 0.75 if you want to treat Amenities as being of lower value compared to TV from the Clerk job). That's just the Amenities, let alone the pop growth, taken together, the the total value of the Medical Worker job is pretty solid, and pop growth is extremely value in the long run because it's a growth multiplier, so it increases the rate at which your empire grows which makes you snowball a little bit harder.
This video reminds me once again that using the Carrying Capacity mod instead of vanilla growth mechanics was absolutely the right choice