If the players throw the ring off of the boat in the middle of the ocean, the campaign is now about fighting a possessed invisible evil shark that ate the fish that ate the ring.
I like the idea that much later they would find it in a jewelry shop very costly price but a fish ate it caught caught by a fisher sold at a market carved pawned and just give it a cool story of finding a way back maybe bought for a proposal died on the honeymoon ring stolen by goblins looted by a adventurer died to a dragon dragon took it you can do anything and hype it up but it ends up in a store hit em with a what you didn’t see story kinda deal
1. Avoid repetitive bosses without progression. 2. Avoid mandatory character sacrifice 3. Avoid mandatory "neat thing" sacrifice 4. Avoid "it was a dream all along" storylines where nothing is accomplished 5. Avoid "Just enduring" storylines where nothing can fix anything.
What if the game is designed to abuse the it was a dream segment over and over till the players figured out what was between the dreams is the real game? Kid me had weird ideas.
I did the "it was all just a dream" idea for April Fool's Day, and it was a hit with the players because I started everything normal at first but slowly made it as funny and ridiculous as possible. This seems like the only feasible way to make this kind of adventure work without pissing everyone off.
I don;t see why it automatically would piss everyone off. If it has a purpose, a strong idea, and they get something out of it, then it's not that different to any other. They might not get power ups, gold, and magic items from such an adventure, though you could always run the old "It was all a dream, but one of you wakes up with a strange key/jewel/other maguffin in your hand...." chestnut. But information gained in terms of cryptic or blatant clues can be just as useful in a narrative campaign.
@@andrewtomlinson5237it's just the youtuber can't help himself but to project his specific experience with too little research of "what about other people experience". Or it seems so. But it "seems" so in half of his videos, so I do think that it is it.
@@FirstLast-wk3kc I honestly think that videos like this do carry an inherent danger. I've been at this DM'ing lark for over 40 years, and I have seen a LOT of new rules for how to be DM/GM springing up since the growth of people making a living from advising other people how to play games on social media... And it has become a fight for views and "legitimacy" traction. Very soon that fight became about what is the most definitive "THIS or THAT" standpoint (Got to grab them with a bold title and a shiny thumbnail!) so that new players who often lack the patience to learn over time can quickly take a headline note from a 15 to 20 minute video, and use that as leverage to fake expertise that is generally earned over time through experience. Everybody wants the shortcut... and where is the best place to learn how to fake it? The Internet... not the table top! . It seems that new DMs don't want wishy washy advice like "Here are five things that could go wrong if you're not careful, but here's a couple of ways to avoid fucking it up, and maybe do it well!" "Follow my tick box rules to success and you'll never fail!" Honestly that stuff sounds like someone selling a diet plan, or a new religion... It's all about "THIS is a rule that if you don't stick to, is a BAD thing! And you will be a BAD DM!!! And because I do videos I should know! " It kind of annoys me... because I've found myself in conversations that fast turn into arguments, where people who've been playing TTRPGs about a year or so, who have never run a campaign tell me that I'm a BAD DM because I advocate for things that their favourite TH-camr decries as being "BAD!". What Guy and others who do this generally use as a defence is, "well when I go into the detail I do mention caveats, and ways it can work" but this fails to address the fact that most people don't get that far into the discussion. They see the title, hear "The Rule" assume it is a truism to live by and off they go... "This is GOOD... not doing that is BAD... OK... got it!" The assumed premise for this entire channel to a new, young, player looking for how to be a DM is simple... "This is what it takes to be GOOD... so if you don't do it this way, (and this is reinforced by VERY frequent use of the word...) you willl be BAD!" Had one last year with another popular TH-cam channel who stated in the title and thumbnail that "Monsters should NEVER Attack first!!!" Not "Monster shouldn't always attack first!" no.... they should NEVER attack first! Followed up by some flannel and faff about how this removes "player agency" by not giving them the chance to talk through an ecnounter... never even got into the subject of ambush, surprise, mindless monsters/automata etc... just sending novice players away with a stupid rule they will beat their DM with if they dare to break it... With new players learning, (simply because they only listen to/retain the first line of a given RULE) not even half truths about GMing from people claiming to advise GMs, who then go and quote these rules at even experienced DMs/GMs is it any wonder there are fewer and fewer people taking up the job...
@@andrewtomlinson5237then it's not what he's talking about. They've gotten something out of it. He's referring to all just a dreams that literally give you nothing.
Once, and only once, I was able to make a campaign based on #4 (all an illusion / all a dream) work. The secret that time was that both the players and the characters knew about it ahead of time. The concept of the game was that the realm was cursed by the restless dead, and the only way to quiet them was to enter a series of remembered dream worlds and take part in great battles and other major historical events. The characters knew how all these events played out, and they knew that things would get worse and worse for them the longer they stayed in there, but if they could have enough of an effect on the outcome, the unjustly slain could be brought to a measure of peace and the curse would gradually lift. That's the only way I ever managed to make it work.
That's an awesome storyline. Very psychonauts. I think the key aspect is that there was still progress. I think if you had followed that up with the reveal that the dream world was just an illusion by the BBEG and the restless dead were still suffering, thus rendering all the effort meaningless, it probably wouldn't have gone over as well.
Me, about to click on this video: Please don't be my campaign idea, please don't be my campaign idea... And it wasn't, hooray! Great examples, Guy! Cheers to the editor goblin, loving their work!
To be fair, number one was my last campaign but they never even got to the first big bad. It was chaos. I laid all the clues and they just didn't care, even a little. A demon set a tavern on fire and they cared about that, but even with the piles of clues, including hand outs, they just tucked them away and wandered to the next interesting spot. So my next campaign is just gonna be a sandbox where they can happily do just that and I won't get frustrated.
I admit to planning my games' stories ahead of time, but I always allow my players to change the story if they choose to go in other directions. In fact, I prefer it when they do things I didn't plan for, forcing me to be creative on the fly. Makes the game more exciting for the DM also.
I mean, in Dragon Age: Origins, you find out very early that drinking the demon blood and becoming a Gray Warden (which you must do) is going to very slowly kill you, and also drive you nuts. Later, you find out that on top of this, in order to end the demon invasion one Gray Warden needs to sacrifice themselves to actually kill the Archdemon. Otherwise, it just takes over the body of a lesser demon and essentially respawns. There is a loophole, but some players may find it equally unappealing, and for them there is no happy ending to be had. Granted, DA:O is a video game and so it must have predetermined endings, but it's widely regarded as one of the best RPGs of all time, so I don't think this plot device is quite the sin you make it out to be.
I think it's different in video games because one you don't really create your PC to the same extent and because in video games we are trained to find THE solution to the story and in ttrpgs a lot of the appeal (for a lot of people) is there not being proscribed solutions
Video games have different conventions to ttrpg's in fairness to DA:O I love it but ultimately it's still "just" an old video game that has to deal with the limitations of the technology
I feel there should be an exception to the "It was all a dream" thing rule, make the "dream world" an actual location. I had players that I did that too and they were annoyed at first... until they realized that it wasn't a "just a dream" but rather they were literally, physically transported to the "Dream World" (had a different name, basically a collected subconscious world, inspired by the events of Mario 2 of all things) where the events were happening. Sure they woke up in camp 'as if no time has passed', but they had the scars, physically, mentally, and their bags were a bit fuller somehow. Basically, I had a player be very annoyed until I pointed out his scar that he got from a particularly nasty thing was still there and he started connecting more dots. "It was a dream" is often perfectly fine. It's the "Everything I did was for nothing" feeling that you need to avoid.
The Hydra style example I think can work for a superhero campaign if you make it that the heroes have say capture one conspirator in the first adventure in the campaign and subsequent adventurers aren't about stopping progressively more powerful baddies but figuring out which villains are in on the conspiracy. Like "winning" the campaign means finding out who is still trying to do the evil thing. But once they find out there could be a climactic battle or it could be the Heroes tell their SHIELD equivalent. Sorta turn a game where the players might have made Kryptonian level combat gods into an investigation
I did a single session as a dream, but it wasn't their dream. It was a friend's dream, and I told the players at the start that it was a dream. They were in the middle of a multi-session task with little to no chance of combat, and I didn't want it to be repetitive, so it was like a one-shot with their existing characters.
As Comic Drake always says, "There are no bad stories; only bad writing." This applies in campaigns as well. There are no bad campaign ideas, only bad execution of those ideas that do no support it. Only avoid them if you don't know how to execute those concepts.
Yeah, this is actually one of the things that has kinda exhausted me on the whole "discourse" about TTRPGs. Here are the real tips to have a good campaign. 1. Never, ever, ever, ever, ever play with a bunch of randos!!! Every single bad RPG story seems to extend from people walking in of the first game with them being an outsider, or having some DnD Encounters session at a hobby shop. While these sorts of campaigns are not always bad, they have a much lower chance of being anything approaching what you will want. 2. If the DM does something you don't like, talk to them. If you are the only person at the table that doesn't like something and everyone else at the table is having a time, have a civil discussion about the differences. If they still are intractable, walk away. Life is too short, and if you are not having fun then just leave. 3. Play what you and your table want to play and don't fret too much about the "never do this," stuff. You will lose your mind and burn out if you are the DM, or if you are a player you will just continually be disappointed. 4. Play. Just play. Experience different games, styles, etc. There is unique fun in role-playing heavy campaigns where the players are collaborating with The DM to bring this really cool story to life with all of your hands. Likewise, there is a lot of fun to be had in heavy simulation-based campaigns where the DM is just there to throw scenarios at you and keep you honest about your supplies and abilities. Lastly, tables where you guys just meta-game the fuck out of the book and make busted characters to try and win the game can also be really fun. Try all of them. You will find your style will be some amalgamation of the 3. I know I tend to do Story/Role-Playing mixed with Sandbox, as I am not that good at the simulation stuff, but there are others who will mix it up in different ways. In order to learn how to do this, you need to learn how to play. So play.
Least favorite ending to a campaign: Deus Ex Machina where the NPC's came in and completed the spell for us. Therefore we didn't die and they did. Took all our agency away. Ended on a sour note.😢
Watching NPCs even help the PCs in any kind of end encounter is exhausting. Maybe it's just my confirmation bias, but I swear to god every time I watch this the PCs struggle to complete their abilities because the GM is fudge-succeeding saving throws or making it hard for the PCs to win, but then the NPC's turn comes up and they're basically allowed to use their abilities unmolested. Worse, when the GM realizes they've made the encounter too hard by doing this and the group is now at risk of losing, the NPCs start miraculously scoring critical hits *rolls eyes*
bros production quality only goes up some how. Last time I watched was like 2 years ago, coming back now is like whiplash compared to the older style of doing things. It feels more entertaining more than it feels like im watching a lecture (And yet its still informational)
One of my favorite dungeons to run is a morality test that runs characters through moral quandaries. It culminates in a no-win scenario where the characters only have enough resources to save one character. After the final battle, everyone is revived and the characters are rewarded based on how moral they were, and future opportunities manifest if they were exceptionally moral
An interesting dungeon for the right party, actually. Requires the players to be playing the classical "Goodly Hero" Archetype ofc but if that's the sort of game you're running it's an interesting litmus test.
Very interesting idea. I’d like to hear more about the moral quandaries and ending scenario. Can you give an example? There are lots of use cases for this even if not a full dungeon.
Man I'd fail your plan easily. My characters are always morally.... Grey. I spend my real life tryin to be a good person, I sure as heck don't need to be tied down in my RPGs!
@@dracodominus2800 I spend my real life trying to be a good person too. I take a different approach to the escapism though; all my TTRPG characters are good people with the *power* to make their goodness as consistent and meaningful as possible. I never enjoy playing "grey" characters because it just feels like a stronger version of a real-life "good person". Neat how the experience can be so different!
You could have an alternative version of this based on a dark deity's principles that your villain's placed their headquarters w/in. Also allowing players to cheat, sneak passed, or escape certain quandry rooms would be great for those whose alignments wouldn't allow them to answer.
I have done number 2 just as you described... The paladin npc was there in case no players volunteered. Two of the players actually tried to do it and they did a rock-paper-scissors but the guy that lost just did it anyway. It was an amazing end but then the other players started a new campaign to find a way to save their friend... It went into epic levels (3.5e).
I did it years ago, but just one player had to die. It was literally the end of a campaign that had been running for about 3 years, and three out of the five characters had survived from the start. They had defeated the villain but his lair was collapsing around them as a result, and someone had to stay behind and use a something to sustain a something (it was nearly forty years ago, the details are a little vague...) It was fully expected that the Paladin would be the one who stayed behind to save the rest... but he hesitated. The Ranger walked past him and told them to go. The guy who played the Paladin said to me about ten years ago that he STILL experienced guilt over the death of that Ranger...
I did this as a player mainly eons ago … ranger (sidekick to a magic-user) struck the lunch with fire shield knowing what it would do (again sidekick to a MU) Best PC death I’ve had in 40 years
The Conclave of Evil concept... It can work if taken further. Make each of the Evil Masters distinct in function - say, one Master of the Mines, one Master of the Forestry, one Master of Logistics, one Master of Manufacture, et cetera... you can get far more interesting adventures out of this, when you see the Conclave starts fraying as soon as the party starts kicking the foundations of their evil empire out from underfoot... The heroes aren't just taking down one powerful boss after another, but entire branches of government, as it were.
Personally, I have a lot of success executing a "council of evil" by making each evil boss be a different org with different goals and methods; so like the boss of the Black Flame Brigade wants gold and glory, while Minister Cho wants to put the Usurper on the throne because of promised power; while the Usurper wants the throne because the royal treasury contains a dagger that can be used to revive an ancient god. Most importantly, all of the members of the league of evil present different challenges leading up to defeating them, and potentially can even be pitted against each other
@@nicholasromero238 Indeed, so the "Council of Evil" have very different organizations beneath them, creating different structures to unravel and dismantle on the way. Some of those might have interdependencies, making one weaker by cracking another, while others grow stronger with a rival out of the way...
So, in short, what looks cool on the storyboard of your favorite comic/tv series/movie franchise, will nor translate all that well into an RPG setting, because everybody has equal input into how the campaign goes. Now, you can use those ideas as a template for a cool, and fun, campaign, but keep in mind the players will have their own ideas, and you should incorporate them as you can. As Captain Barbosa said, "they are more like guidelines, rather than rules".
There is one major exception to the "it was all a dream" plotline, and that's if the fact that the party is in a dream *is* the conflict. If the party discover that they are trapped in a dream, or a hologram, or an illusion and their whole objective is to ESCAPE the simulation and return to their own reality then that's potentially a great adventure. Maybe give the party hints in the dream that people/things they care about are in danger, and that the clock is ticking even while they dream and suddenly you've got time pressure, escape the dream and go rescue your loved ones! Maybe they defeat some dream dragon to break themselves free from the dream, only to find themselves faced with the wizard who put them in this dream... but fully restored as though they had taken a long rest and ready to beat down this wizard who is no match for them at their full strength: a fun bit of power and catharsis after a challenging encounter in the dream world.
That is an excellent point. There are other ways as well, but it has to be the point. There is a game series called Pathologic that is all about hurting the player. And I am about to SPOIL THE EVER LIVING SHIT OUT OF: At the end of the first game you get invited to a place inhabited by children that spend their time playing fantasy games. It is an inpossible structure held up by its own staircase and constructed with its own blueprints. At the bottom, you get to meet with the often foreshadowed Powers That Be. They are children that were playing a game in which all the awful things happen to you. You are just a toy. Even at the end of the game, it finds a way to hurt you and make your victory turn to ash.
If the players lose the ring then they get drawn into an extended war against the forces of darkness. Eventually the ring is found again as it always is. In terms of "knowing the ending" I always plan how the events will play out if the players do nothing. I know what "fate" wants the world to do. The players then are basically ta'veren from the Wheel of Time. Fate may want history to play out a certain way but the players can change the course of fate. In my historic games it was always clear that the players could kill a historical figure before his time. Same thing in my Star Wars game... if they do something that upsets canon then canon is upset but, absent some action by the players to change it, history will happen as it was "meant" to.
I actually like a well-executed dream plot. While it doesn't really happen, it will influence the character. And as someone who likes psychological fights more than physical ones, I think that can be utilized very well. (Plus, it usually becomes very obvious very fast, and you get to watch your character think what they see is reality while you know it isn't. And that's always fun)
The problem with Number 4, All a Dream, is the problem with most unsatisfying twist endings: Twist endings need to be just as, if not more so, narratively fulfilling as the expected outcome. Since a dream means the events were less meaningful, it's usually a bad twist, but as you said, if you foreshadow it enough, it can be the better ending, since it makes more sense.
The best campaign i ever was able to end, had a party sacrifice itself for the world. dnd 3.5 went on for 5 years but as it ended all the main characters pulled a heroic move that cost them there lives but also ended the bbeg and the army they had amassed.
"it was a dream" one was a session thing that was alluded to with one of the characters that has the gift of prophecy. They've been having visions before. Several hints dropped during. Most notably the sudden change of where everyone was. It was also used exactly 1 time and never again
Hi Guy! Sam here! Thanks for a great video! I just love the idea of players needing to make a choice on who among ourselves to stab for the greater good. Some how it reminded me of the novel Lord of the Flies, but the stabbings in that novel had nothing to do with the greater good or any good at all. lol
Something like that actually happened in a campaign I was in once! I don't remember the specifics too well, though at the end of the campaign we had to save an important NPC. They had been kidnapped and I believe they were taken through a portal to some place in hell or something along those lines. Anyway, we get the NPC and even as we retreat to the portal, yeah there's still fighting going on and it's chaos, and I'm pretty sure that we find out then that one of us will have to stay behind. I don't remember the reason, but one of us would have to. And the funny thing is, it would make sense for every character to be the one to stay behind, both narratively and just in-character. So what ended up happening was in the midst of a chaotic battle we ended up arguing that we should be the one to stay behind and scrambling to be the one to do so. Fun times.
The last "any" got me. I had to stop watching to get over laughing. Well done sir. The only reason I can see for a "good" version of item 4 is not as a campaign but as an event within it where the "dream" or simulation or whatever it is ends up being a source of useful information that can be applied to the external reality of the campaign.
The only time I can imagine using the "it was all an illusion" gimmick would be if players are able to agree to it and its mid- campaign. For example, those times where a TPK happens for stupid reasons, and nobody wants it, nobody is satisfied, and the story wasnt over. So you decide to ret-con the session. If everyone wants the session rolled back and undone, then to the players surprise you could make it a new quest hook. Take the "you wake up at the inn and it was all a dream" line, and work in some clues that a monster is to blame for their nightmares. Or the BBEG modified their memories. Suddenly an unintended TPK could become part of the plot in a much more intriguing and unexpected way.
So there is a Trope Talks (Overly Sarcastic Productions) about 'all a dream' episodes that points out how such a campaign could work. Essentially it boils down to the events aren't real, but the emotional and psychological effects are. So essentially, the dream needs to have had meaningful character growth.
Ran a campaign years ago that was supposed to culminate with somebody choosing to sacrifice themselves to seal the Gates of Madness (Cthulu inspired fantasy setting). The great evil was already stopped but the gate need to be shut or much evil would befall the lands. However it could only be shut by a willing sacrifice on the other side. The longer they were in the realm of madness the more it drove them insane. As the game fell apart due to scheduling issues before this point I ruled the canonical ending is they went mad before escaping and the last one with any sanity sealed the gate, and locking them all in the depths of Ry'leh. One day I plan to run a sequel dealing with the fallout.
The sacrifice trope can be done well. I will agree that an alternative needs to be presented, but there should always be the possibility of failure. The possible impending failure builds tension. One my favorite gaming experiences was when my character sacrificed themself to save their remaining friends and allies, along with all the innocent folks who would have suffered from the collateral damage. I think it all comes down to communication between the GM and the players. We as players knew the risks we were taking. We knew the irreversible consequences if we failed at the alternative option. We took the chance and unfortunately failed. The price had to be paid , and it was the ultimate price of a selfless heroic act. I would never have had it any other way. It's a moment that me and my friends still talk about to this day.
One of the best things I can think of to do with the first scenario is for the players to not know there is a "laegue of evil" or whatever. They beat a boss as part of something else, maybe find some stuff, but go on about their business without no real knowledge about the big picture. As they go on they might pick up some more pieces and either start putting things together or stay oblivious. They keep going until they realize they've gotten themselves into some deep shit and it's up to them to decide what they're gonna do about it.
To keep my players from dying off during episodes I place convenient medical kits but they have to search for them, or there is a medical bay nearby. I will play a Timmy character to be sacrificed at a reasonable time. You need someone to pilot a ship into a dock send in Timmy. Need a hole to be blown into the side of the ship to extinguish the plasma fire Timmy's your man. However there are rules to use Timmy. One is you may not get another for a long time.
God bless you for this video, this summarizes everything I've been having as an indirect debate with another GM in a server I run a game in. He literally does not understand The Infinite La Mulana Dungeon Of Increasing Power Threats After X Levels is boring, he doesn't understand that you can't just railroad people in eternal dungeons, or funny jokes that praise his own humor, or any time players try to contribute something he strips agency by swearing he's done it and made The Thing but it's nowhere in our rulebooks or lore, it's just dropping in to make sure the player doesn't think to make it and tries to strip agency, he doesn't get how sacrificial endings or flex stories must be set up, and he even goes and tries to change the storybuild he made and established to save his favorite "NPC" which he plays like a PC and. No bro. Stahp omg you're driving us insane this is my GM board anyway why are you trying to establish shit on my players on my board
I once did the second one but put a twist ob it . They had to stop a ritual but "a live willingly given " was nessesary . Well the pcs gave willingly the live of the bbeg they just beat up and kept alive for later interrigation .
I think all of the advice you have given here is pretty solid, though I think it is worth mentioning as a reminder to newer GMs that certain campaigns, despite having various possible outcomes, will present the PC “sacrifice” as the most straightforward option in the climax, especially if they created their PC based on the world - and yes, I’m referring to Darkon in van Richten’s 5e. This (actually most of Ravenloft) is an exception to all of the rules mentioned here. Then again, you should really only play Ravenloft with a group that understands how Ravenloft works anyway (I’ve had people freak out during the Masquerade).
I can see the "just a dream" thing working for a first session, with the psychological damage and bad memories still lingering after the players wake up. The campaign then becomes: Who did that to the PCs, why, and how many other people are they doing it to?
I'm running a sandbox where for the past year, the players have seen how their adventures and successes have helped heal a scarred kingdom. Problem is theyre expecting a bbeg and i havent really envisioned one yet lol
Currently doing the "it was all an illusion", but it's not an all for nothing. It's also not the whole campaign. It's just part one for the new players to figure out if they want to continue playing, make new characters and continue, or start a whole new campaign. Of course I didn't tell them it's all an illusion, but I have left hints for the experienced players. We're 5 sessions in and at first they didn't understand why they were doing what they were doing, but we're getting closer to finishing part 1 and even the new players are starting to figure out the plot to it. I think they even figured out the reward for completing part one. For my first time being a DM, I think it's being implemented in a way that works well.
Some good points I only plan one session ahead because I never know what the characters are going to do. I’ve had a few sessions that were all improvised
I have a "its all a dream" campaign where everything is insode of a beholders dream and depending on if the beholder dies in the dream or not he either wakes up and everything is over, or the next campaign is set against a death tyrant and his growing army.
I've done multiple nemesis, but that's in Lost Mines of Phandelver, into Dragon of Icespire Peak, and the Cult of Talos has been a presence until they got to come out as the main threat.
I absolutely love you’re videos and content Guy. The work you do for the community is purely wonderful. I find myself often wondering when I create, WWGD 😂 As a DM I’d love to pick your brain one day and divulge my world setting, lore and campaign layouts to you and discuss in depth your thoughts and opinions as I value yours so highly. I was wondering if this is perhaps a service that you offer through your various platforms or if paid/booked one on one time with yourself is a service you would consider offering? I’m sure many would relish such an opportunity! Keep up the great work, keep being amazing and happy gaming! ✌🏼
I'd say these are great ideas, but are difficult to execute properly. Guy already mentioned good ways to fix the first two 'bad' ideas. Obviously, player agency is the is the reason a lot of people play TTRPG's, so a good GM would have to take the utmost care to not take it away, and this requires quite the skill. If for example the PC already know they are entering a dream, we could have a great segment where they get to do crazy stuff because dream logic. After waking up, they just might find a dream artefact in their possession, or be able to communicate through shared dreams later on in the campign.
For the "And it turns out you are all dead" the simplest solution is... Don't make that a twist. Make it part of the pitch. But, honestly, I think a lot of campaign ideas that would be bad as twists can make for awesome campaigns if the players go in knowing ahead of time.
I once mapped out a campaign where the characters were fighting an evil illusionist known to use deception as his main weapon. There was a dream section where the characters were to go to a town and defeat one of his lieutenants. The town was an amalgam of other places they had been and there were people they had previously met but in different places. If they defeated the dream, they gained an advantage against future illusions and deceptions used by the Illusionist. Sadly we never got to that point in the campaign so I never got to see if they would pick up the clues that it wasn't real.
Generally agree. However, relative to #4, I would remind of the movie, "Total Recall." Not sure the premise would work in an RPG game though. I'm also reminded of some to the twists in the "Altered Carbon" series. Again... acted stories are not exactly RPG sessions, though there are many similarities with good players. Keep up the good work.
i once did the illusion/dream thing. it was a epic trial by a god and it went really well because they passed and got powerful magic items to defeat the bbeg because they proved worthy. it wasnt a disapointment but rmembered as a cool session. the only reason it was a dream was because I felt it was fitting in the situation
6:27 Dude, taking away agency and etc is GOOD WHEN YOU HAVE TALKED WITH PLAYERS ABOUT IT AND EVERYONE LOVED THE CONCEPT. ahem, never say never, you absolutely can do such stuff of the players don't mind and warned at least in the slightest way. Or if you have experienced players who know you very much and etc, etc.
I will say that the dream/illusion thing can end up working, if information from within the dream transcends out of it... For example if players are about to get curbstomped by a tough fight, or drown in a trapped room filling with water.. But then it wasn't real and was all a dream-like premonition.. ... But then a few sessions later the suspiciously same looking enemy from the dream appears, and this time they know to avoid the grass growing under their feet about to swallow them up for a TPK... Or they walk into a suspiciously similar looking room, but this time pull the lever to the right instead of the left... etc.
The boss progression should be a matter of scale. I've had DMs that are always like You have been chosen to save the world, and it's like "WTH are you talk to us bunch of level 1s for? If the world is in danger perhaps you could go talk to King or other people in charge with real power." I basically starts the campaign on feeling like you jumped on a Railroad. And gets boring fast as you go after minion number 456 in evil fortress 5 only to fight Fortress boss 5. Instead start local like breaking up local thug gang, then finding out they were supplying someone with greater plans on the town. After that perhaps that person was working with someone else, maybe not directly for but was getting supplies in exchange for something they provided. Then as you investigate this new party you perhaps find out more about a larger evil group. And so on until finally when your players are at much higher levels you reveal the big bad evil. Basically have the players pull on the thread it unravels more about the world and what's going on. And the bosses don't need to be directly connected with one serving under the other but rather could simply be business partner, allies over a mutual goal, or even rivals. Like a group is kidnapping people to turn them into monsters to fight another unknown evil organization. This kind of twist can rise interesting moral questions as now that the other organization is no longer in conflict they are free to unless their more horrific plans, thus you have the current baddy try to make a deal with the players to allow them to continue abducting people in order to take own the bigger threat.
I ran a "dream" champaign b4. At the end i gave the players the option to either keep everything or keep nothing from it. Whats ur take on that scenario?
"It was all just a dream" tends to be a bad storytelling idea in general, unless everything happens in the context of the dream or else the point is to understand or change the personality of the dreamer. A story is itself a kind of dream, a made-up conflict with imaginary stakes and consequences. The audience has to buy into the idea that the conflict is real if they want to enjoy a story, so if the story itself tells them that the conflict is fake it ruins their engagement.
Him burning the Diablo game made me spit out my drink laughing. And Technically, the hero doesn’t die at the end of Diablo 1. He becomes the wanderer and the villain for the Diablo 2 game..
I've actually done a similar thing to number 4 but i made it very clear. Basically i gave them 3 days to solve a murder mystery with massive repercussions. But at the end of the third day time would repeat itself back to day one with only them retaining knowledge. People would slowly begin to vanish, just one or two the first few times but eventually swathes of people. I made it a super false hydra. Anytime it fed time would go back to the day it was born so that it could grow ever stronger. The end result was a complex the players committed the murder and were responsible got the false hydra. It was born from their collective guilt and desire to forget. They chose to end the hydra which woke them up on day 1 again and they decided to admit to their crimes and be executed, which i didn't really think they'd do haha
The first issue you mentioned was a typical BBEG situation with multiple lieutenants. Could you elaborate further on this? Why is it bad even though it sounds good narratively ? What is a better structure? I am asking for more details on this specific design because the others are clear (player or narrative agency). But this sounds like typical campaign design?
I have returned to the ongoing sagas style of game. Campaigns are only snippets in the lives of the characters. I no longer go by the premise of one villain seeking to rule the world! I have “Bond” villains who have influenced their region of an even larger world. A challenge of some sort is presented and the players decide what to do. Often they ignore it and are diverted by something else. I keep notes of conflict ideas and find ways to allow them to reemerge. They may have grown in scope because an opportunity to deal with them was missed. Even more fun when the players realize that. The world is alive and things continue even outside the party’s presence. Thanks for the reminder of these horrific campaign troupes. I have never liked them either.
I wonder if you could make #4 not as a whole camlaign, but as a one-off kind of encounter (?) where the players wake up from their rest only to find themselves in an illusion created by 1-2 wizards sent to assassinate them in a weird fashion, except the wizards are not super competent and that's why the illusion is "leaking", and dying in the illusion causes them to wake up earlier than expected. Thoughts? Would that be worth it? Also, how would you make these hints that this is an illusion - would it be buildings or people popping up out of nowhere like it's badly rendering or what? Would like to hear some ideas, I find this concept quite intriguing
Funny. The first campaign I ran for my current group was that they were already dead (#5). There were plenty of hints, that they didn't catch, until the reveal at the end, when they caught the hints, and literally climbed out of the land of the dead. They are still playing those characters, who earned a second chance at life.
In his example, the characters died in the end (again) after discovering they were already dead, so I think his problem with it was more how the twist was implemented? Regardless, your take on the idea was a nice one, and I hope your players loved it!
2. is fine, as long as it is known and agreed upon by players in advance. 3. same as 2, For both of them, you should be ready to end (in your mind) the old campaign and switch to a new one with a theme - "You fail, now live with consequences". You lose your chance to destroy the "ring", now enjoy everyone being rolled over by the "dark lord". 5. Some settings and themes require an extremely strong feeling that nothing can be fixed and only "small" victories could happen. Like Cyberpunk, Warhammer, and such. And on a side note, all players and GM agree on what type of story, theme, etc they are playing. If they skip this, they are set for disappointment
If the players discard a key item, they can't complain when it bites them later. One of the main components to playing an RPG is learning about the world the characters are in. The DM can and should remind the players of pertinent information if they are making a decision their character would know is ill-advised. If there's information which would help the players to make informed decisions on a topic, the DM can and should say where they can find it. If players persist in making a decision ill-informed, let them bear the consequences. A game in which the players can do whatever they like with no risk of failure isn't fun.
So, in order: 1. The Five Evils (Whack a mole) - WotC: Princes of the Apocalypse 2. Sacrifice - WotC: Death House 3. Sacrifice/Need Singular Item - LotR, WotC: Storm Kings Thunder Notice a pattern?
Thinking about it, the sacrifice camping can work, but in a call pf CTHULU Game or delta green, horror games that are about the insignificance of Mankind, but yeah in a more heroic setting is horrible
1) Its all about presentation. If you have 5 bosses, all feel super dangerpus, all evil and irredeemable, etc then it gets dull. Plan personalities, goals, and alternatives. Maybe some are fought, some can be talked down, some may even help the party. 2) Yeah, dont put people in a doomed state. It should either be a choice or an EARNED consequence that had its warnings spelled out and talked about. 3) tied to 2. Make it a choice, not required. Forced should be a narrative thing that everyone agrees on or was clearly telegraphed as a consequence of actions and warned meta wide. 4) Dont make it so it doesnt matter! You can do this, shoet term, but make it matter. If the dream is a premonition, or a Fae attempt to kill the party,etc. Give it MEANINGFUL context OUTSIDE the dream. 5) Depends. You need to talk to the party and agree upon it. Even if you do, have tact and be careful HOW its done. Can somethjng be done about it? Or can they turn it into a positive somehow? Can it be useful to the players? Is it short term? Long term? Permanent? Those details are VITAL. Usually, the more severe or more long term, the nicer you are about the affliction. No one wants a paladin that cannot use divine powers just because. May be fun for a single session, not 4 or 5
Hoping the dice and coins get in a store at some point, as I don't like the current option with the coins. I only want 4 coins, one of each coin type/color, but with the same motif.
I would say as usually. It depends, what you have said is true in most cases and in most systems and if it's a campaign. We playing CoC for the moment and we are in a #4 state of horror and it works as a charm for us as players. When we have played crime/agent story games I have preferred #1 when you or the npc's don't know who the opposition are. So even if you are up against a gang, even in a fantasy setting I see it unlikely that the PC's understand who the boss is, So if the PC's pisses someone off the boss will probably only send 1-2 men to deal with the problem. And when they don't come back the boss will send out more to investigate and deal with with x2 more people than the PC's. I don't see a problem with that and if the players are cleaver, which they are they will handle it.
I agree that requiring a sacrifice is lame, but I do think it can be pretty interesting to tell them a sacrifice is required while being open to seeing how they try to figure out alternative solutions. Maybe there's a prophecy or some smart guy that tells them a sacrifice is needed, but the prophecy was misinterpreted, or the "required sacrifice" is actually the ploy of the BBEG. Or maybe the person who made the prophecy simply hadn't considered the power of a certain spell of 5th level or higher.
i would love an expansion on campaign bloat. I think thats what im experiencing right now but i dont exactly know what it means. Let alone how to fix it
i think total party sacrifice could work if you plan on continuing the game after the final boss is defeated, in a way like heroes have to battle their way through hell to live again. possibly as a whole followup campaign.
players would always have the choice of not doing it though, and you could do a followup to that as well, maybe like the group needs to find sacrifices in their place to seal him, or their is another method somehow, or something
Okay so to summarize: - Always have a sense of progression, no video game boss fights that serve no purpose. Perhaps alternatively, have each villain be in charge of a different aspect of the overall Empire of Evil and trashing them denies the rest of the Legion of Doom a particular asset that makes them that much more vulnerable. - That... was the ending of the first Diablo game. And the only reason they ended it that way was... okay, so that was exactly where you were going with that reference. Yeah that was a terrible ending. Realistically the hero should have locked the Soulstone in one of the countless small chests that littered the dungeon, chartered a boat, sailed far enough away that the coastline disappeared, and yeeted the chest right off the starboard side. - Avoid Deus Ex Machina situations in general where the players' actions don't matter.
I hope someone sees this and can give me their honest thought on a plot point I'm thinking through for a campaign. I'm going somewhere with it, so don't freak out immediately, please. I'm thinking about at one point having a forced party death. However, it will be relevant to the plot, as the party finds them selves as spirits in the afterlife. They meet a couple of NPCs, get a reward, solve a puzzle and return to their bodies again. The thing that makes me worried, is the forced death part. I feel like it could be a cool section, but I know how attached to their characters players become, and I might get crucified at the very second I explain the forced death, not having time to continue before getting nailed to the cross. I don't really want to tell them first either, that it'll happen but it has a point, as I don't want to spoil the moment. Gaah, I don't know. I really want to include this, but part of me is like "they will HATE me".
Because I'm a contrarian, and love challenging myself with tropes: 1. Avoid repetitive bosses without progression. - Every "mini-boss" in my campaign is, in some way, related to a characters backstory. The party is working their way through the players of a grand conspiracy, and they're loving it. 2. Avoid mandatory character sacrifice - Nothing is "mandatory" in D&D, just that one particular ending may require a sacrifice. The group may choose a selfish ending. As long as that ending is prepared, and you don't force their actions, agency prevails! 3. Avoid mandatory "neat thing" sacrifice - See above, really. 4. Avoid "it was a dream all along" storylines where nothing is accomplished - Largely agree, but I'm going to try a fun spin on my characters once they hit undermountain. It's going to involve a *lot* of TPK's, and finding themselves back at the Yawning Portal after each one with a particular song playing. 5. Avoid "Just enduring" storylines where nothing can fix anything. - I feel like each role playing group could try this once, the problem is once the cats out of the bag. It's out of the bag for your players, but not mine! A good list, all in all. Plenty to think about, and I love the fact that we keep returning to agency as the key to a good campaign.
Read the Practical Guide to Becoming a Great GM. The channel has helped, and the book is giving me the exercise I need to level up. I know evolving takes time, but I've never felt more in control of it. Thank you. On the topics of the video... 1. I've watched animes with too much of a repetitive story in the sense that the opening conflict didn't end even when they added new ones. It bored and annoyed me because the villains felt a bit more important than the MCs. 2. and 3. War of the Burning Sky hinges on sacrifice. The story needs to be bought into for the sacrifice to work. It is a railroad too. However, with enough buy in and GM preparation, it also full of player agency opportunities. That hinges on the GM's ability to engage the players through the campaign's railroady stuff. Not easy to do. 4. The dream sequence is important to Strange Aeons. It's presented well but I can see how opening with a dream, even in cosmic horror, could grate players. It practically writes a TPK the party survives purely for narrative reasons. 5. I won't even attempt a good example of a "You find out you're dead" campaign. Even the Dark Souls TTRPG doesn't go that far and you play as an Undead in that. I suppose the players could figure out how to break their curse, but they choose that in character design rather than as an imposed plot.
Awesome video, thanks a lot. Constructive criticism: shave the little zooms out of the editing, irritates more than „youtube-attention-break“. Just my 2 Cents.
So, thoughts? My players are doing a fetch quest. It's basically go get a crystal of energy. The crystal will be used to create the Warforged. "Ah yes imagine, an army that never sleeps, eats and never disobeys orders." Bring crystal back. Warforged are created but oh no...They go full Ultron mode. BUT the Warforged all go by ONE name. Vecna. Let me know what you think.
Oh boy... I've watched 2 of your vids so far. And I can tell you, I've HAD that DM. Unkillable bosses Un-seeable enemies changing how abilites work mid session because it hampers a bad guy knowing what a player is going to do ahead of time, and just vetoing the whole thing. giving one player too much power, getting annoyed when said player dunks the boss, only to bring in another boss that wasnt supposed to be in the fight at all. Giving a boss 24 (no thats not a typo, 24) 3rd level spell slots... vs a party of 4 lvl 9's. (oh he also had 25AC and his lowest save was like +9 or something. But it was 'balanced' [not]
So a question about #3, the sacrificial maguffin. Let's take the ring example, in our case what about if the ring is both cursed and... I dunno, vampiric? Like, simply having the ring on your person drains you, not HP but something like all your rests count as one step less, and if the players try getting rid of it they always find it again in their pockets or backpacks or whatever. So Oh no, we dropped it in the ocean. Hey I'm feeling a lot better this morni... What is that in my pocket?
In addition, even in the Lord of the Rings, the destruction of the ring was not certain, it was not destined, in several parts there is talk of the different possibilities that could occur and that could easily have happened (Galadriel talks about what would happen if she took the ring, Tolkien's letters talk about what would have happened if Gandalf or Aragorn claimed the ring, and even what would have happened if Frodo managed to escape with the ring out of the volcano (even in the animated movies of the late 1970s and early 1980s, what would happen if Sam claimed the ring was explored a bit)). The destruction of the ring was just the least likely option, in fact Sauron was quite confident that no one would ever try it but he thought that Gandalf or Aragorn were looking for the ring or hiding it for them to use against Sauron himself. The business of doing prophesied things or introducing chosen characters is a bit boring, besides being already a literary cliche, even if it tries to subvert or deceive the viewer by saying that this destiny could be aborted or altered... but then there was no fate then.
i think several of these are resolved by not having the expectation that the campaign actually ends nor the expectation that the players have to do things according to your plans. i suppose thats a bit of a copout but you can certainly set up mandatory character sacrifice or mandatory item sacrifice as an element of the campaigns design so long as you have a way to react to the players not choosing to make those sacrifices. for instance the comparison to lord of the rings. frodo didn't have to throw the ring into mount doom for the story to progress, but the story beyond that point would be both a different story and would have consequences for that choice. the story would have continued even if we the readers didn't read beyond it.
If the players throw the ring off of the boat in the middle of the ocean, the campaign is now about fighting a possessed invisible evil shark that ate the fish that ate the ring.
Sharknado =b
But they found an abandoned civilisation and now the ring is meaningless to the campaign
"Who wants to give me a history check on Dragonturtles?"
I like the idea that much later they would find it in a jewelry shop very costly price but a fish ate it caught caught by a fisher sold at a market carved pawned and just give it a cool story of finding a way back maybe bought for a proposal died on the honeymoon ring stolen by goblins looted by a adventurer died to a dragon dragon took it you can do anything and hype it up but it ends up in a store hit em with a what you didn’t see story kinda deal
The ring wants to be found. Let them chuck it and they'll have to deal with whomever dm decides gets it next.
1. Avoid repetitive bosses without progression.
2. Avoid mandatory character sacrifice
3. Avoid mandatory "neat thing" sacrifice
4. Avoid "it was a dream all along" storylines where nothing is accomplished
5. Avoid "Just enduring" storylines where nothing can fix anything.
You could have number 4 be how magic items are attained.
All of those made me cringe
What if the game is designed to abuse the it was a dream segment over and over till the players figured out what was between the dreams is the real game? Kid me had weird ideas.
Number 4 is like saying the Wizard Of Oz film is pointless when its a classic
#6. One PC is the true born ..... whatever. Don't hang the story around one person's character.
I did the "it was all just a dream" idea for April Fool's Day, and it was a hit with the players because I started everything normal at first but slowly made it as funny and ridiculous as possible. This seems like the only feasible way to make this kind of adventure work without pissing everyone off.
I don;t see why it automatically would piss everyone off.
If it has a purpose, a strong idea, and they get something out of it, then it's not that different to any other. They might not get power ups, gold, and magic items from such an adventure, though you could always run the old "It was all a dream, but one of you wakes up with a strange key/jewel/other maguffin in your hand...." chestnut.
But information gained in terms of cryptic or blatant clues can be just as useful in a narrative campaign.
Yes
@@andrewtomlinson5237it's just the youtuber can't help himself but to project his specific experience with too little research of "what about other people experience".
Or it seems so. But it "seems" so in half of his videos, so I do think that it is it.
@@FirstLast-wk3kc
I honestly think that videos like this do carry an inherent danger.
I've been at this DM'ing lark for over 40 years, and I have seen a LOT of new rules for how to be DM/GM springing up since the growth of people making a living from advising other people how to play games on social media... And it has become a fight for views and "legitimacy" traction. Very soon that fight became about what is the most definitive "THIS or THAT" standpoint (Got to grab them with a bold title and a shiny thumbnail!) so that new players who often lack the patience to learn over time can quickly take a headline note from a 15 to 20 minute video, and use that as leverage to fake expertise that is generally earned over time through experience.
Everybody wants the shortcut... and where is the best place to learn how to fake it?
The Internet... not the table top!
.
It seems that new DMs don't want wishy washy advice like "Here are five things that could go wrong if you're not careful, but here's a couple of ways to avoid fucking it up, and maybe do it well!"
"Follow my tick box rules to success and you'll never fail!"
Honestly that stuff sounds like someone selling a diet plan, or a new religion...
It's all about "THIS is a rule that if you don't stick to, is a BAD thing! And you will be a BAD DM!!! And because I do videos I should know! "
It kind of annoys me... because I've found myself in conversations that fast turn into arguments, where people who've been playing TTRPGs about a year or so, who have never run a campaign tell me that I'm a BAD DM because I advocate for things that their favourite TH-camr decries as being "BAD!".
What Guy and others who do this generally use as a defence is, "well when I go into the detail I do mention caveats, and ways it can work" but this fails to address the fact that most people don't get that far into the discussion.
They see the title, hear "The Rule" assume it is a truism to live by and off they go... "This is GOOD... not doing that is BAD... OK... got it!"
The assumed premise for this entire channel to a new, young, player looking for how to be a DM is simple... "This is what it takes to be GOOD... so if you don't do it this way, (and this is reinforced by VERY frequent use of the word...) you willl be BAD!"
Had one last year with another popular TH-cam channel who stated in the title and thumbnail that "Monsters should NEVER Attack first!!!" Not "Monster shouldn't always attack first!" no.... they should NEVER attack first!
Followed up by some flannel and faff about how this removes "player agency" by not giving them the chance to talk through an ecnounter... never even got into the subject of ambush, surprise, mindless monsters/automata etc... just sending novice players away with a stupid rule they will beat their DM with if they dare to break it...
With new players learning, (simply because they only listen to/retain the first line of a given RULE) not even half truths about GMing from people claiming to advise GMs, who then go and quote these rules at even experienced DMs/GMs is it any wonder there are fewer and fewer people taking up the job...
@@andrewtomlinson5237then it's not what he's talking about. They've gotten something out of it. He's referring to all just a dreams that literally give you nothing.
3:19 Number One
5:45 Number Two
8:44 Number Three
11:09 Number Four
13:17 Number Five
PLEASE put the time signatures back in the videos
@@oldskoolgamer7246 I second that
Once, and only once, I was able to make a campaign based on #4 (all an illusion / all a dream) work. The secret that time was that both the players and the characters knew about it ahead of time. The concept of the game was that the realm was cursed by the restless dead, and the only way to quiet them was to enter a series of remembered dream worlds and take part in great battles and other major historical events. The characters knew how all these events played out, and they knew that things would get worse and worse for them the longer they stayed in there, but if they could have enough of an effect on the outcome, the unjustly slain could be brought to a measure of peace and the curse would gradually lift. That's the only way I ever managed to make it work.
That's an awesome storyline. Very psychonauts. I think the key aspect is that there was still progress. I think if you had followed that up with the reveal that the dream world was just an illusion by the BBEG and the restless dead were still suffering, thus rendering all the effort meaningless, it probably wouldn't have gone over as well.
Them dice cubes and coins are super clever, and gorgeous!
And good GM advice as always.
Me, about to click on this video: Please don't be my campaign idea, please don't be my campaign idea...
And it wasn't, hooray! Great examples, Guy! Cheers to the editor goblin, loving their work!
To be fair, number one was my last campaign but they never even got to the first big bad. It was chaos. I laid all the clues and they just didn't care, even a little. A demon set a tavern on fire and they cared about that, but even with the piles of clues, including hand outs, they just tucked them away and wandered to the next interesting spot. So my next campaign is just gonna be a sandbox where they can happily do just that and I won't get frustrated.
I admit to planning my games' stories ahead of time, but I always allow my players to change the story if they choose to go in other directions. In fact, I prefer it when they do things I didn't plan for, forcing me to be creative on the fly. Makes the game more exciting for the DM also.
I mean, in Dragon Age: Origins, you find out very early that drinking the demon blood and becoming a Gray Warden (which you must do) is going to very slowly kill you, and also drive you nuts. Later, you find out that on top of this, in order to end the demon invasion one Gray Warden needs to sacrifice themselves to actually kill the Archdemon. Otherwise, it just takes over the body of a lesser demon and essentially respawns. There is a loophole, but some players may find it equally unappealing, and for them there is no happy ending to be had.
Granted, DA:O is a video game and so it must have predetermined endings, but it's widely regarded as one of the best RPGs of all time, so I don't think this plot device is quite the sin you make it out to be.
I think it's different in video games because one you don't really create your PC to the same extent and because in video games we are trained to find THE solution to the story and in ttrpgs a lot of the appeal (for a lot of people) is there not being proscribed solutions
Video games have different conventions to ttrpg's in fairness to DA:O
I love it but ultimately it's still "just" an old video game that has to deal with the limitations of the technology
DAO was pretty depressing. I liked 2 much more.
This is more railroady than the Baltimore and Ohio and really wouldn't work well on the tabletop.
I usually don't stick around for the ad, let alone click the link, but as a dice goblin this took my interest. Looked really smart.
I feel there should be an exception to the "It was all a dream" thing rule, make the "dream world" an actual location. I had players that I did that too and they were annoyed at first... until they realized that it wasn't a "just a dream" but rather they were literally, physically transported to the "Dream World" (had a different name, basically a collected subconscious world, inspired by the events of Mario 2 of all things) where the events were happening. Sure they woke up in camp 'as if no time has passed', but they had the scars, physically, mentally, and their bags were a bit fuller somehow. Basically, I had a player be very annoyed until I pointed out his scar that he got from a particularly nasty thing was still there and he started connecting more dots.
"It was a dream" is often perfectly fine. It's the "Everything I did was for nothing" feeling that you need to avoid.
The Hydra style example I think can work for a superhero campaign if you make it that the heroes have say capture one conspirator in the first adventure in the campaign and subsequent adventurers aren't about stopping progressively more powerful baddies but figuring out which villains are in on the conspiracy. Like "winning" the campaign means finding out who is still trying to do the evil thing. But once they find out there could be a climactic battle or it could be the Heroes tell their SHIELD equivalent. Sorta turn a game where the players might have made Kryptonian level combat gods into an investigation
I did a single session as a dream, but it wasn't their dream. It was a friend's dream, and I told the players at the start that it was a dream. They were in the middle of a multi-session task with little to no chance of combat, and I didn't want it to be repetitive, so it was like a one-shot with their existing characters.
As Comic Drake always says, "There are no bad stories; only bad writing." This applies in campaigns as well. There are no bad campaign ideas, only bad execution of those ideas that do no support it. Only avoid them if you don't know how to execute those concepts.
I came to say the same thing.
Yeah, this is actually one of the things that has kinda exhausted me on the whole "discourse" about TTRPGs.
Here are the real tips to have a good campaign.
1. Never, ever, ever, ever, ever play with a bunch of randos!!! Every single bad RPG story seems to extend from people walking in of the first game with them being an outsider, or having some DnD Encounters session at a hobby shop.
While these sorts of campaigns are not always bad, they have a much lower chance of being anything approaching what you will want.
2. If the DM does something you don't like, talk to them. If you are the only person at the table that doesn't like something and everyone else at the table is having a time, have a civil discussion about the differences. If they still are intractable, walk away. Life is too short, and if you are not having fun then just leave.
3. Play what you and your table want to play and don't fret too much about the "never do this," stuff. You will lose your mind and burn out if you are the DM, or if you are a player you will just continually be disappointed.
4. Play. Just play. Experience different games, styles, etc. There is unique fun in role-playing heavy campaigns where the players are collaborating with The DM to bring this really cool story to life with all of your hands.
Likewise, there is a lot of fun to be had in heavy simulation-based campaigns where the DM is just there to throw scenarios at you and keep you honest about your supplies and abilities. Lastly, tables where you guys just meta-game the fuck out of the book and make busted characters to try and win the game can also be really fun.
Try all of them. You will find your style will be some amalgamation of the 3. I know I tend to do Story/Role-Playing mixed with Sandbox, as I am not that good at the simulation stuff, but there are others who will mix it up in different ways. In order to learn how to do this, you need to learn how to play. So play.
Least favorite ending to a campaign: Deus Ex Machina where the NPC's came in and completed the spell for us. Therefore we didn't die and they did. Took all our agency away. Ended on a sour note.😢
Watching NPCs even help the PCs in any kind of end encounter is exhausting. Maybe it's just my confirmation bias, but I swear to god every time I watch this the PCs struggle to complete their abilities because the GM is fudge-succeeding saving throws or making it hard for the PCs to win, but then the NPC's turn comes up and they're basically allowed to use their abilities unmolested. Worse, when the GM realizes they've made the encounter too hard by doing this and the group is now at risk of losing, the NPCs start miraculously scoring critical hits *rolls eyes*
The “Raiders of the Lost Ark” campaign. Without the party, everything would’ve happened exactly that way anyhow….
bros production quality only goes up some how. Last time I watched was like 2 years ago, coming back now is like whiplash compared to the older style of doing things. It feels more entertaining more than it feels like im watching a lecture (And yet its still informational)
Backed Lord of the Dice before I even finished listening to your plug. Just beautiful.
One of my favorite dungeons to run is a morality test that runs characters through moral quandaries. It culminates in a no-win scenario where the characters only have enough resources to save one character. After the final battle, everyone is revived and the characters are rewarded based on how moral they were, and future opportunities manifest if they were exceptionally moral
An interesting dungeon for the right party, actually. Requires the players to be playing the classical "Goodly Hero" Archetype ofc but if that's the sort of game you're running it's an interesting litmus test.
Very interesting idea. I’d like to hear more about the moral quandaries and ending scenario. Can you give an example? There are lots of use cases for this even if not a full dungeon.
Man I'd fail your plan easily. My characters are always morally.... Grey. I spend my real life tryin to be a good person, I sure as heck don't need to be tied down in my RPGs!
@@dracodominus2800 I spend my real life trying to be a good person too. I take a different approach to the escapism though; all my TTRPG characters are good people with the *power* to make their goodness as consistent and meaningful as possible. I never enjoy playing "grey" characters because it just feels like a stronger version of a real-life "good person". Neat how the experience can be so different!
You could have an alternative version of this based on a dark deity's principles that your villain's placed their headquarters w/in.
Also allowing players to cheat, sneak passed, or escape certain quandry rooms would be great for those whose alignments wouldn't allow them to answer.
I have done number 2 just as you described... The paladin npc was there in case no players volunteered. Two of the players actually tried to do it and they did a rock-paper-scissors but the guy that lost just did it anyway. It was an amazing end but then the other players started a new campaign to find a way to save their friend... It went into epic levels (3.5e).
I did it years ago, but just one player had to die. It was literally the end of a campaign that had been running for about 3 years, and three out of the five characters had survived from the start.
They had defeated the villain but his lair was collapsing around them as a result, and someone had to stay behind and use a something to sustain a something (it was nearly forty years ago, the details are a little vague...)
It was fully expected that the Paladin would be the one who stayed behind to save the rest... but he hesitated. The Ranger walked past him and told them to go.
The guy who played the Paladin said to me about ten years ago that he STILL experienced guilt over the death of that Ranger...
I did this as a player mainly eons ago … ranger (sidekick to a magic-user) struck the lunch with fire shield knowing what it would do (again sidekick to a MU)
Best PC death I’ve had in 40 years
The Conclave of Evil concept... It can work if taken further. Make each of the Evil Masters distinct in function - say, one Master of the Mines, one Master of the Forestry, one Master of Logistics, one Master of Manufacture, et cetera... you can get far more interesting adventures out of this, when you see the Conclave starts fraying as soon as the party starts kicking the foundations of their evil empire out from underfoot... The heroes aren't just taking down one powerful boss after another, but entire branches of government, as it were.
Personally, I have a lot of success executing a "council of evil" by making each evil boss be a different org with different goals and methods; so like the boss of the Black Flame Brigade wants gold and glory, while Minister Cho wants to put the Usurper on the throne because of promised power; while the Usurper wants the throne because the royal treasury contains a dagger that can be used to revive an ancient god.
Most importantly, all of the members of the league of evil present different challenges leading up to defeating them, and potentially can even be pitted against each other
@@nicholasromero238 Indeed, so the "Council of Evil" have very different organizations beneath them, creating different structures to unravel and dismantle on the way. Some of those might have interdependencies, making one weaker by cracking another, while others grow stronger with a rival out of the way...
So, in short, what looks cool on the storyboard of your favorite comic/tv series/movie franchise, will nor translate all that well into an RPG setting, because everybody has equal input into how the campaign goes. Now, you can use those ideas as a template for a cool, and fun, campaign, but keep in mind the players will have their own ideas, and you should incorporate them as you can. As Captain Barbosa said, "they are more like guidelines, rather than rules".
There is one major exception to the "it was all a dream" plotline, and that's if the fact that the party is in a dream *is* the conflict. If the party discover that they are trapped in a dream, or a hologram, or an illusion and their whole objective is to ESCAPE the simulation and return to their own reality then that's potentially a great adventure.
Maybe give the party hints in the dream that people/things they care about are in danger, and that the clock is ticking even while they dream and suddenly you've got time pressure, escape the dream and go rescue your loved ones! Maybe they defeat some dream dragon to break themselves free from the dream, only to find themselves faced with the wizard who put them in this dream... but fully restored as though they had taken a long rest and ready to beat down this wizard who is no match for them at their full strength: a fun bit of power and catharsis after a challenging encounter in the dream world.
That is an excellent point. There are other ways as well, but it has to be the point. There is a game series called Pathologic that is all about hurting the player. And I am about to SPOIL THE EVER LIVING SHIT OUT OF:
At the end of the first game you get invited to a place inhabited by children that spend their time playing fantasy games. It is an inpossible structure held up by its own staircase and constructed with its own blueprints. At the bottom, you get to meet with the often foreshadowed Powers That Be. They are children that were playing a game in which all the awful things happen to you. You are just a toy. Even at the end of the game, it finds a way to hurt you and make your victory turn to ash.
If the players lose the ring then they get drawn into an extended war against the forces of darkness. Eventually the ring is found again as it always is.
In terms of "knowing the ending" I always plan how the events will play out if the players do nothing. I know what "fate" wants the world to do. The players then are basically ta'veren from the Wheel of Time. Fate may want history to play out a certain way but the players can change the course of fate.
In my historic games it was always clear that the players could kill a historical figure before his time. Same thing in my Star Wars game... if they do something that upsets canon then canon is upset but, absent some action by the players to change it, history will happen as it was "meant" to.
I actually like a well-executed dream plot. While it doesn't really happen, it will influence the character. And as someone who likes psychological fights more than physical ones, I think that can be utilized very well. (Plus, it usually becomes very obvious very fast, and you get to watch your character think what they see is reality while you know it isn't. And that's always fun)
The problem with Number 4, All a Dream, is the problem with most unsatisfying twist endings: Twist endings need to be just as, if not more so, narratively fulfilling as the expected outcome. Since a dream means the events were less meaningful, it's usually a bad twist, but as you said, if you foreshadow it enough, it can be the better ending, since it makes more sense.
You snagged my attention and I have been binging your content all day!
The best campaign i ever was able to end, had a party sacrifice itself for the world. dnd 3.5 went on for 5 years but as it ended all the main characters pulled a heroic move that cost them there lives but also ended the bbeg and the army they had amassed.
"it was a dream" one was a session thing that was alluded to with one of the characters that has the gift of prophecy. They've been having visions before. Several hints dropped during. Most notably the sudden change of where everyone was. It was also used exactly 1 time and never again
I love this channel!!
Hi Guy! Sam here! Thanks for a great video! I just love the idea of players needing to make a choice on who among ourselves to stab for the greater good. Some how it reminded me of the novel Lord of the Flies, but the stabbings in that novel had nothing to do with the greater good or any good at all. lol
Something like that actually happened in a campaign I was in once! I don't remember the specifics too well, though at the end of the campaign we had to save an important NPC. They had been kidnapped and I believe they were taken through a portal to some place in hell or something along those lines. Anyway, we get the NPC and even as we retreat to the portal, yeah there's still fighting going on and it's chaos, and I'm pretty sure that we find out then that one of us will have to stay behind. I don't remember the reason, but one of us would have to. And the funny thing is, it would make sense for every character to be the one to stay behind, both narratively and just in-character. So what ended up happening was in the midst of a chaotic battle we ended up arguing that we should be the one to stay behind and scrambling to be the one to do so. Fun times.
The last "any" got me. I had to stop watching to get over laughing. Well done sir.
The only reason I can see for a "good" version of item 4 is not as a campaign but as an event within it where the "dream" or simulation or whatever it is ends up being a source of useful information that can be applied to the external reality of the campaign.
The only time I can imagine using the "it was all an illusion" gimmick would be if players are able to agree to it and its mid- campaign. For example, those times where a TPK happens for stupid reasons, and nobody wants it, nobody is satisfied, and the story wasnt over. So you decide to ret-con the session. If everyone wants the session rolled back and undone, then to the players surprise you could make it a new quest hook. Take the "you wake up at the inn and it was all a dream" line, and work in some clues that a monster is to blame for their nightmares. Or the BBEG modified their memories. Suddenly an unintended TPK could become part of the plot in a much more intriguing and unexpected way.
So there is a Trope Talks (Overly Sarcastic Productions) about 'all a dream' episodes that points out how such a campaign could work. Essentially it boils down to the events aren't real, but the emotional and psychological effects are. So essentially, the dream needs to have had meaningful character growth.
Guy, again you do well. Thank you very much for some insight as always. 😊
Ran a campaign years ago that was supposed to culminate with somebody choosing to sacrifice themselves to seal the Gates of Madness (Cthulu inspired fantasy setting). The great evil was already stopped but the gate need to be shut or much evil would befall the lands. However it could only be shut by a willing sacrifice on the other side. The longer they were in the realm of madness the more it drove them insane. As the game fell apart due to scheduling issues before this point I ruled the canonical ending is they went mad before escaping and the last one with any sanity sealed the gate, and locking them all in the depths of Ry'leh. One day I plan to run a sequel dealing with the fallout.
Great info as usual, as well as humorous!!
The sacrifice trope can be done well. I will agree that an alternative needs to be presented, but there should always be the possibility of failure. The possible impending failure builds tension. One my favorite gaming experiences was when my character sacrificed themself to save their remaining friends and allies, along with all the innocent folks who would have suffered from the collateral damage. I think it all comes down to communication between the GM and the players. We as players knew the risks we were taking. We knew the irreversible consequences if we failed at the alternative option. We took the chance and unfortunately failed. The price had to be paid , and it was the ultimate price of a selfless heroic act. I would never have had it any other way. It's a moment that me and my friends still talk about to this day.
One of the best things I can think of to do with the first scenario is for the players to not know there is a "laegue of evil" or whatever. They beat a boss as part of something else, maybe find some stuff, but go on about their business without no real knowledge about the big picture. As they go on they might pick up some more pieces and either start putting things together or stay oblivious. They keep going until they realize they've gotten themselves into some deep shit and it's up to them to decide what they're gonna do about it.
To keep my players from dying off during episodes I place convenient medical kits but they have to search for them, or there is a medical bay nearby. I will play a Timmy character to be sacrificed at a reasonable time. You need someone to pilot a ship into a dock send in Timmy. Need a hole to be blown into the side of the ship to extinguish the plasma fire Timmy's your man. However there are rules to use Timmy. One is you may not get another for a long time.
God bless you for this video, this summarizes everything I've been having as an indirect debate with another GM in a server I run a game in. He literally does not understand The Infinite La Mulana Dungeon Of Increasing Power Threats After X Levels is boring, he doesn't understand that you can't just railroad people in eternal dungeons, or funny jokes that praise his own humor, or any time players try to contribute something he strips agency by swearing he's done it and made The Thing but it's nowhere in our rulebooks or lore, it's just dropping in to make sure the player doesn't think to make it and tries to strip agency, he doesn't get how sacrificial endings or flex stories must be set up, and he even goes and tries to change the storybuild he made and established to save his favorite "NPC" which he plays like a PC and. No bro. Stahp omg you're driving us insane this is my GM board anyway why are you trying to establish shit on my players on my board
I once did the second one but put a twist ob it . They had to stop a ritual but "a live willingly given " was nessesary . Well the pcs gave willingly the live of the bbeg they just beat up and kept alive for later interrigation .
I think all of the advice you have given here is pretty solid, though I think it is worth mentioning as a reminder to newer GMs that certain campaigns, despite having various possible outcomes, will present the PC “sacrifice” as the most straightforward option in the climax, especially if they created their PC based on the world - and yes, I’m referring to Darkon in van Richten’s 5e. This (actually most of Ravenloft) is an exception to all of the rules mentioned here. Then again, you should really only play Ravenloft with a group that understands how Ravenloft works anyway (I’ve had people freak out during the Masquerade).
I can see the "just a dream" thing working for a first session, with the psychological damage and bad memories still lingering after the players wake up. The campaign then becomes: Who did that to the PCs, why, and how many other people are they doing it to?
I imagine throwing the ring down to the bottom of the Mariana Trench is a great way to keep it away for a long time.
Till an Aboleth finds it.
I'm running a sandbox where for the past year, the players have seen how their adventures and successes have helped heal a scarred kingdom. Problem is theyre expecting a bbeg and i havent really envisioned one yet lol
Video starts at 3:18
Or 2:22 if you want the long winded intro
Thank you. I concur.
Currently doing the "it was all an illusion", but it's not an all for nothing. It's also not the whole campaign. It's just part one for the new players to figure out if they want to continue playing, make new characters and continue, or start a whole new campaign. Of course I didn't tell them it's all an illusion, but I have left hints for the experienced players. We're 5 sessions in and at first they didn't understand why they were doing what they were doing, but we're getting closer to finishing part 1 and even the new players are starting to figure out the plot to it. I think they even figured out the reward for completing part one. For my first time being a DM, I think it's being implemented in a way that works well.
Some good points
I only plan one session ahead because I never know what the characters are going to do. I’ve had a few sessions that were all improvised
I have a "its all a dream" campaign where everything is insode of a beholders dream and depending on if the beholder dies in the dream or not he either wakes up and everything is over, or the next campaign is set against a death tyrant and his growing army.
I've done multiple nemesis, but that's in Lost Mines of Phandelver, into Dragon of Icespire Peak, and the Cult of Talos has been a presence until they got to come out as the main threat.
Brilliant, thank you, good to have some reminders of what to avoid. Also, stupid things are always funnier than sensible things to listen to.
I absolutely love you’re videos and content Guy. The work you do for the community is purely wonderful. I find myself often wondering when I create, WWGD 😂
As a DM I’d love to pick your brain one day and divulge my world setting, lore and campaign layouts to you and discuss in depth your thoughts and opinions as I value yours so highly.
I was wondering if this is perhaps a service that you offer through your various platforms or if paid/booked one on one time with yourself is a service you would consider offering?
I’m sure many would relish such an opportunity!
Keep up the great work, keep being amazing and happy gaming! ✌🏼
Once again, I am spending money on something Guy is recommending - but it looks like a lot of fun! Thanks, Guy! =)
I'd say these are great ideas, but are difficult to execute properly. Guy already mentioned good ways to fix the first two 'bad' ideas.
Obviously, player agency is the is the reason a lot of people play TTRPG's, so a good GM would have to take the utmost care to not take it away, and this requires quite the skill.
If for example the PC already know they are entering a dream, we could have a great segment where they get to do crazy stuff because dream logic. After waking up, they just might find a dream artefact in their possession, or be able to communicate through shared dreams later on in the campign.
For the "And it turns out you are all dead" the simplest solution is... Don't make that a twist. Make it part of the pitch. But, honestly, I think a lot of campaign ideas that would be bad as twists can make for awesome campaigns if the players go in knowing ahead of time.
I once mapped out a campaign where the characters were fighting an evil illusionist known to use deception as his main weapon. There was a dream section where the characters were to go to a town and defeat one of his lieutenants. The town was an amalgam of other places they had been and there were people they had previously met but in different places. If they defeated the dream, they gained an advantage against future illusions and deceptions used by the Illusionist. Sadly we never got to that point in the campaign so I never got to see if they would pick up the clues that it wasn't real.
Generally agree. However, relative to #4, I would remind of the movie, "Total Recall." Not sure the premise would work in an RPG game though. I'm also reminded of some to the twists in the "Altered Carbon" series. Again... acted stories are not exactly RPG sessions, though there are many similarities with good players. Keep up the good work.
choice is a game, but the artifice of choice is an art.
i once did the illusion/dream thing. it was a epic trial by a god and it went really well because they passed and got powerful magic items to defeat the bbeg because they proved worthy. it wasnt a disapointment but rmembered as a cool session. the only reason it was a dream was because I felt it was fitting in the situation
6:27
Dude, taking away agency and etc is GOOD WHEN YOU HAVE TALKED WITH PLAYERS ABOUT IT AND EVERYONE LOVED THE CONCEPT.
ahem, never say never, you absolutely can do such stuff of the players don't mind and warned at least in the slightest way.
Or if you have experienced players who know you very much and etc, etc.
I hope nobody tells him Rise of the Runelords, the most famous Paizo adventure path, absolutely is the first idea.
I will also say that illusory stuff can be amusing in the short term.
I think this is a really cool build. Did you think about going artificer for his gadgets and magic weapons?
Thanks for the tips, I find the insight on the intricacy of these pitfalls very valuable. Can you do a video on running illusion and enchantment?
I will say that the dream/illusion thing can end up working, if information from within the dream transcends out of it...
For example if players are about to get curbstomped by a tough fight, or drown in a trapped room filling with water.. But then it wasn't real and was all a dream-like premonition..
... But then a few sessions later the suspiciously same looking enemy from the dream appears, and this time they know to avoid the grass growing under their feet about to swallow them up for a TPK... Or they walk into a suspiciously similar looking room, but this time pull the lever to the right instead of the left... etc.
One I see is the villain/villains are just out to get the hero…. I always feel in these situations the most heroic thing your hero could do is quit.
The boss progression should be a matter of scale. I've had DMs that are always like You have been chosen to save the world, and it's like "WTH are you talk to us bunch of level 1s for? If the world is in danger perhaps you could go talk to King or other people in charge with real power." I basically starts the campaign on feeling like you jumped on a Railroad. And gets boring fast as you go after minion number 456 in evil fortress 5 only to fight Fortress boss 5.
Instead start local like breaking up local thug gang, then finding out they were supplying someone with greater plans on the town. After that perhaps that person was working with someone else, maybe not directly for but was getting supplies in exchange for something they provided. Then as you investigate this new party you perhaps find out more about a larger evil group. And so on until finally when your players are at much higher levels you reveal the big bad evil.
Basically have the players pull on the thread it unravels more about the world and what's going on. And the bosses don't need to be directly connected with one serving under the other but rather could simply be business partner, allies over a mutual goal, or even rivals. Like a group is kidnapping people to turn them into monsters to fight another unknown evil organization. This kind of twist can rise interesting moral questions as now that the other organization is no longer in conflict they are free to unless their more horrific plans, thus you have the current baddy try to make a deal with the players to allow them to continue abducting people in order to take own the bigger threat.
I ran a "dream" champaign b4. At the end i gave the players the option to either keep everything or keep nothing from it. Whats ur take on that scenario?
"It was all just a dream" tends to be a bad storytelling idea in general, unless everything happens in the context of the dream or else the point is to understand or change the personality of the dreamer. A story is itself a kind of dream, a made-up conflict with imaginary stakes and consequences. The audience has to buy into the idea that the conflict is real if they want to enjoy a story, so if the story itself tells them that the conflict is fake it ruins their engagement.
Him burning the Diablo game made me spit out my drink laughing. And Technically, the hero doesn’t die at the end of Diablo 1. He becomes the wanderer and the villain for the Diablo 2 game..
I've actually done a similar thing to number 4 but i made it very clear. Basically i gave them 3 days to solve a murder mystery with massive repercussions. But at the end of the third day time would repeat itself back to day one with only them retaining knowledge. People would slowly begin to vanish, just one or two the first few times but eventually swathes of people. I made it a super false hydra. Anytime it fed time would go back to the day it was born so that it could grow ever stronger. The end result was a complex the players committed the murder and were responsible got the false hydra. It was born from their collective guilt and desire to forget. They chose to end the hydra which woke them up on day 1 again and they decided to admit to their crimes and be executed, which i didn't really think they'd do haha
The first issue you mentioned was a typical BBEG situation with multiple lieutenants. Could you elaborate further on this? Why is it bad even though it sounds good narratively ? What is a better structure? I am asking for more details on this specific design because the others are clear (player or narrative agency). But this sounds like typical campaign design?
I have returned to the ongoing sagas style of game. Campaigns are only snippets in the lives of the characters.
I no longer go by the premise of one villain seeking to rule the world! I have “Bond” villains who have influenced their region of an even larger world.
A challenge of some sort is presented and the players decide what to do. Often they ignore it and are diverted by something else.
I keep notes of conflict ideas and find ways to allow them to reemerge. They may have grown in scope because an opportunity to deal with them was missed. Even more fun when the players realize that.
The world is alive and things continue even outside the party’s presence.
Thanks for the reminder of these horrific campaign troupes. I have never liked them either.
I wonder if you could make #4 not as a whole camlaign, but as a one-off kind of encounter (?) where the players wake up from their rest only to find themselves in an illusion created by 1-2 wizards sent to assassinate them in a weird fashion, except the wizards are not super competent and that's why the illusion is "leaking", and dying in the illusion causes them to wake up earlier than expected. Thoughts? Would that be worth it? Also, how would you make these hints that this is an illusion - would it be buildings or people popping up out of nowhere like it's badly rendering or what? Would like to hear some ideas, I find this concept quite intriguing
Id like the poster of this video to actually identify ANY Star Trek episode where it was actually a dream? I think he may just struggle
Funny. The first campaign I ran for my current group was that they were already dead (#5). There were plenty of hints, that they didn't catch, until the reveal at the end, when they caught the hints, and literally climbed out of the land of the dead. They are still playing those characters, who earned a second chance at life.
In his example, the characters died in the end (again) after discovering they were already dead, so I think his problem with it was more how the twist was implemented? Regardless, your take on the idea was a nice one, and I hope your players loved it!
@@MrPitchblackwarwolf That's why I pointed out the difference. The start was the same, but the execution was different. And, they loved it.
2. is fine, as long as it is known and agreed upon by players in advance.
3. same as 2,
For both of them, you should be ready to end (in your mind) the old campaign and switch to a new one with a theme - "You fail, now live with consequences". You lose your chance to destroy the "ring", now enjoy everyone being rolled over by the "dark lord".
5. Some settings and themes require an extremely strong feeling that nothing can be fixed and only "small" victories could happen. Like Cyberpunk, Warhammer, and such.
And on a side note, all players and GM agree on what type of story, theme, etc they are playing. If they skip this, they are set for disappointment
If the players discard a key item, they can't complain when it bites them later. One of the main components to playing an RPG is learning about the world the characters are in. The DM can and should remind the players of pertinent information if they are making a decision their character would know is ill-advised. If there's information which would help the players to make informed decisions on a topic, the DM can and should say where they can find it. If players persist in making a decision ill-informed, let them bear the consequences. A game in which the players can do whatever they like with no risk of failure isn't fun.
So, in order:
1. The Five Evils (Whack a mole) - WotC: Princes of the Apocalypse
2. Sacrifice - WotC: Death House
3. Sacrifice/Need Singular Item - LotR, WotC: Storm Kings Thunder
Notice a pattern?
Thinking about it, the sacrifice camping can work, but in a call pf CTHULU Game or delta green, horror games that are about the insignificance of Mankind, but yeah in a more heroic setting is horrible
These are great ideas. I think I have seen those movie plots... Lol
1) Its all about presentation. If you have 5 bosses, all feel super dangerpus, all evil and irredeemable, etc then it gets dull. Plan personalities, goals, and alternatives. Maybe some are fought, some can be talked down, some may even help the party.
2) Yeah, dont put people in a doomed state. It should either be a choice or an EARNED consequence that had its warnings spelled out and talked about.
3) tied to 2. Make it a choice, not required. Forced should be a narrative thing that everyone agrees on or was clearly telegraphed as a consequence of actions and warned meta wide.
4) Dont make it so it doesnt matter! You can do this, shoet term, but make it matter. If the dream is a premonition, or a Fae attempt to kill the party,etc. Give it MEANINGFUL context OUTSIDE the dream.
5) Depends. You need to talk to the party and agree upon it. Even if you do, have tact and be careful HOW its done. Can somethjng be done about it? Or can they turn it into a positive somehow? Can it be useful to the players? Is it short term? Long term? Permanent? Those details are VITAL. Usually, the more severe or more long term, the nicer you are about the affliction. No one wants a paladin that cannot use divine powers just because. May be fun for a single session, not 4 or 5
Hoping the dice and coins get in a store at some point, as I don't like the current option with the coins. I only want 4 coins, one of each coin type/color, but with the same motif.
I would say as usually. It depends, what you have said is true in most cases and in most systems and if it's a campaign. We playing CoC for the moment and we are in a #4 state of horror and it works as a charm for us as players. When we have played crime/agent story games I have preferred #1 when you or the npc's don't know who the opposition are. So even if you are up against a gang, even in a fantasy setting I see it unlikely that the PC's understand who the boss is, So if the PC's pisses someone off the boss will probably only send 1-2 men to deal with the problem. And when they don't come back the boss will send out more to investigate and deal with with x2 more people than the PC's. I don't see a problem with that and if the players are cleaver, which they are they will handle it.
I agree that requiring a sacrifice is lame, but I do think it can be pretty interesting to tell them a sacrifice is required while being open to seeing how they try to figure out alternative solutions. Maybe there's a prophecy or some smart guy that tells them a sacrifice is needed, but the prophecy was misinterpreted, or the "required sacrifice" is actually the ploy of the BBEG. Or maybe the person who made the prophecy simply hadn't considered the power of a certain spell of 5th level or higher.
i would love an expansion on campaign bloat. I think thats what im experiencing right now but i dont exactly know what it means. Let alone how to fix it
Has anyone read Dave Morris' gamebook "Heart of Ice"? The ending of that book subverts Guy's (2) and (3) really satisfyingly.
i think total party sacrifice could work if you plan on continuing the game after the final boss is defeated, in a way like heroes have to battle their way through hell to live again. possibly as a whole followup campaign.
players would always have the choice of not doing it though, and you could do a followup to that as well, maybe like the group needs to find sacrifices in their place to seal him, or their is another method somehow, or something
Okay so to summarize:
- Always have a sense of progression, no video game boss fights that serve no purpose. Perhaps alternatively, have each villain be in charge of a different aspect of the overall Empire of Evil and trashing them denies the rest of the Legion of Doom a particular asset that makes them that much more vulnerable.
- That... was the ending of the first Diablo game. And the only reason they ended it that way was... okay, so that was exactly where you were going with that reference. Yeah that was a terrible ending. Realistically the hero should have locked the Soulstone in one of the countless small chests that littered the dungeon, chartered a boat, sailed far enough away that the coastline disappeared, and yeeted the chest right off the starboard side.
- Avoid Deus Ex Machina situations in general where the players' actions don't matter.
I hope someone sees this and can give me their honest thought on a plot point I'm thinking through for a campaign.
I'm going somewhere with it, so don't freak out immediately, please.
I'm thinking about at one point having a forced party death. However, it will be relevant to the plot, as the party finds them selves as spirits in the afterlife. They meet a couple of NPCs, get a reward, solve a puzzle and return to their bodies again.
The thing that makes me worried, is the forced death part. I feel like it could be a cool section, but I know how attached to their characters players become, and I might get crucified at the very second I explain the forced death, not having time to continue before getting nailed to the cross. I don't really want to tell them first either, that it'll happen but it has a point, as I don't want to spoil the moment. Gaah, I don't know. I really want to include this, but part of me is like "they will HATE me".
Anybody else get a “Eddie/Suzy Izzard discusses D&D” vibe when listening?
If you fail at task and roll doubles it’s a Fumble - casting magic that’s a miscast … I don’t see an exception for petty spells
Because I'm a contrarian, and love challenging myself with tropes:
1. Avoid repetitive bosses without progression.
- Every "mini-boss" in my campaign is, in some way, related to a characters backstory. The party is working their way through the players of a grand conspiracy, and they're loving it.
2. Avoid mandatory character sacrifice
- Nothing is "mandatory" in D&D, just that one particular ending may require a sacrifice. The group may choose a selfish ending. As long as that ending is prepared, and you don't force their actions, agency prevails!
3. Avoid mandatory "neat thing" sacrifice
- See above, really.
4. Avoid "it was a dream all along" storylines where nothing is accomplished
- Largely agree, but I'm going to try a fun spin on my characters once they hit undermountain. It's going to involve a *lot* of TPK's, and finding themselves back at the Yawning Portal after each one with a particular song playing.
5. Avoid "Just enduring" storylines where nothing can fix anything.
- I feel like each role playing group could try this once, the problem is once the cats out of the bag. It's out of the bag for your players, but not mine!
A good list, all in all. Plenty to think about, and I love the fact that we keep returning to agency as the key to a good campaign.
Read the Practical Guide to Becoming a Great GM. The channel has helped, and the book is giving me the exercise I need to level up. I know evolving takes time, but I've never felt more in control of it.
Thank you.
On the topics of the video...
1. I've watched animes with too much of a repetitive story in the sense that the opening conflict didn't end even when they added new ones. It bored and annoyed me because the villains felt a bit more important than the MCs.
2. and 3. War of the Burning Sky hinges on sacrifice. The story needs to be bought into for the sacrifice to work. It is a railroad too. However, with enough buy in and GM preparation, it also full of player agency opportunities. That hinges on the GM's ability to engage the players through the campaign's railroady stuff. Not easy to do.
4. The dream sequence is important to Strange Aeons. It's presented well but I can see how opening with a dream, even in cosmic horror, could grate players. It practically writes a TPK the party survives purely for narrative reasons.
5. I won't even attempt a good example of a "You find out you're dead" campaign. Even the Dark Souls TTRPG doesn't go that far and you play as an Undead in that. I suppose the players could figure out how to break their curse, but they choose that in character design rather than as an imposed plot.
Awesome video, thanks a lot. Constructive criticism: shave the little zooms out of the editing, irritates more than „youtube-attention-break“. Just my 2 Cents.
So, thoughts?
My players are doing a fetch quest.
It's basically go get a crystal of energy.
The crystal will be used to create the Warforged.
"Ah yes imagine, an army that never sleeps, eats and never disobeys orders."
Bring crystal back.
Warforged are created but oh no...They go full Ultron mode.
BUT the Warforged all go by ONE name.
Vecna.
Let me know what you think.
Oh boy...
I've watched 2 of your vids so far. And I can tell you, I've HAD that DM.
Unkillable bosses
Un-seeable enemies
changing how abilites work mid session because it hampers a bad guy
knowing what a player is going to do ahead of time, and just vetoing the whole thing.
giving one player too much power, getting annoyed when said player dunks the boss, only to bring in another boss that wasnt supposed to be in the fight at all.
Giving a boss 24 (no thats not a typo, 24) 3rd level spell slots... vs a party of 4 lvl 9's. (oh he also had 25AC and his lowest save was like +9 or something.
But it was 'balanced' [not]
So a question about #3, the sacrificial maguffin. Let's take the ring example, in our case what about if the ring is both cursed and... I dunno, vampiric? Like, simply having the ring on your person drains you, not HP but something like all your rests count as one step less, and if the players try getting rid of it they always find it again in their pockets or backpacks or whatever. So Oh no, we dropped it in the ocean. Hey I'm feeling a lot better this morni... What is that in my pocket?
In addition, even in the Lord of the Rings, the destruction of the ring was not certain, it was not destined, in several parts there is talk of the different possibilities that could occur and that could easily have happened (Galadriel talks about what would happen if she took the ring, Tolkien's letters talk about what would have happened if Gandalf or Aragorn claimed the ring, and even what would have happened if Frodo managed to escape with the ring out of the volcano (even in the animated movies of the late 1970s and early 1980s, what would happen if Sam claimed the ring was explored a bit)). The destruction of the ring was just the least likely option, in fact Sauron was quite confident that no one would ever try it but he thought that Gandalf or Aragorn were looking for the ring or hiding it for them to use against Sauron himself.
The business of doing prophesied things or introducing chosen characters is a bit boring, besides being already a literary cliche, even if it tries to subvert or deceive the viewer by saying that this destiny could be aborted or altered... but then there was no fate then.
1. You can do it if every boss is different with their own powers and weakneses, and defeat everyone weaken the whole enemy team.
Did you just say the LOST Finale was clever?
Hot take :-D
i think several of these are resolved by not having the expectation that the campaign actually ends nor the expectation that the players have to do things according to your plans. i suppose thats a bit of a copout but you can certainly set up mandatory character sacrifice or mandatory item sacrifice as an element of the campaigns design so long as you have a way to react to the players not choosing to make those sacrifices. for instance the comparison to lord of the rings. frodo didn't have to throw the ring into mount doom for the story to progress, but the story beyond that point would be both a different story and would have consequences for that choice. the story would have continued even if we the readers didn't read beyond it.
also your 5th example is literally a 3rd edition campaign setting called ghostwalk. its a pretty good campaign setting