Too bad Wizards just spent a couple months destroying their third party developer community. Its almost like Dark Sun would be something they could allow a 3rd party to develop and publish so they get the setting without personally having the backlash.
Minor correction. The city states were ruled by wizard kings who wanted to ascend into becoming dragons. There was only one dragon and it was well beyond anything you see in other D&D settings. Anyways, the problematic part is it not only had slavery but it didn't shy away from the horrors of what that would mean.
You are correct. I realized it after watching the video after editing that I misspoke about the wizard kings. There was only one dragon and he was god-like. There is a lot of mature themes in the game which does make it challenging, but that should be the thing that makes it interesting.
I think their reasoning for not putting it out is "troubling". But just to clear up our rosy-red memories of the setting - NO Dark Sun product (outside of the novels) made any money back in the day. Each product was a loss. You can read all about it in "Slaying the Dragon: History of Dungeons & Dragons" So, some people liked it. Liked it a lot in fact. But not enough people. Most likely because it was "special" and the majority just want their Forgotten Realms with all the normal fantasy stuff in it. But it is a shame if the setting is shelved for the wrong reasons.
I will have to read that book as I find that interesting. As from what I can remember I can believe the financial problem of the setting. They did put a lot of stuff out for it is a rather short time. Maybe the Core setting release would be nice, but a whole line of products would probably not be good financially. There is plenty of source material out there to build campaigns and adventures.
@@ImmortalsInc and it is not alone - Planescape, another well regarded setting likewise made no money. I think those of us who DM have encountered the problem. We read or hear about a great setting but our players just want to play the generic "everything is in this setting" where they can choose any race and class they want and so on.
I read that book as well, and you make a very good point. A small part of me wonders if they said it was problematic because they know it would be a problem profitting from it. I really don't think that the idea of slavery or savagery is their hang up... heck, forgotten realms has that. I think the real moral issue is that it's a game setting that wants the PC dead, and they've been grooming DMs over the last few years to avoid killing players at all costs. My two cents. Good point about the book, though! 👍
@Jason Hawkins give us an example of slavery in the current Forgotten Realms setting? Because... now even the illithids seek consent before you get a tadpole. 😆
@@ImmortalsInc yeah - it’s a really good summary of the business up to the purchase of TSR by WOTC. The overall messaging was that by publishing what -8 different campaigns - by the end (1995) all they were doing was cannibalizing their own sales. X numbers have only x numbers of dollars for sales. If you split that across the 8 different settings - plus the fact there was little crossover - meant that each individual line had a real Problem making money. I had thought it was only Planescape that didn’t make anything - but it could have been Dark Sun as well. That being said - there were a lot of reasons that TSR went under. I mean really boneheaded business decisions. Not making those mistakes makes me feel that TSR cousin have course corrected to be profitable.
Nothing in Dark Sun that is not also in Game of Thrones. Slavery check, War check, Apocalypse After A Calamity check, Loss of Magic check, Hopeless and Desperate Vibes check, The Feeling Only The Protagonists Give A Damn And Everyone Else Is Happy Ruling Over Rubble check. Plus Dark Sun has some great additional lore. It and Eberron are the two most complete feeling setting in my opinion. People embraced Game of Thrones and people would embrace Dark Sun if they presented it correctly. The themes are not problematic, WotC not being able to deliver is.
I think that you guys are right. Challenge is missing from 5e in general and by level 10, your character is a golden age superhero. Also, I don't understand how a game where you battle against slavery and tyranny is "problematic" when you have players that can willingly make deals with devils and not be considered evil.
You’ve hit the nail on the head with the devil deals. WOTC has problematic products but they don’t give a damn about the people that are offended by them because it’s just a game…. Except the terminally left are now the Concern Queens and haven’t been told to suck eggs by the broader community just yet. We WILL recognise this as a weak time for art as a result. The 80s gave us D&D and heavy metal and horror movies - we aren’t getting the same resurgence of culture now.
Dark Sun is amazing, and absolutely my favorite setting of all time. Running the setting was smooth as silk due to all of the tables for weather, special events, and economic fluctuations. Every detail on the Tyr Region map was something mentioned in the first six supplement books, and there was an epic game mode for levels 20 and up that allowed for more powerful versions of everything. Even the rogue classes were special, with bards being more like assassins and merchants being their own rogue class. So much was written out and established that, as a DM, there wasn't much I had to fill in. I just made encounter rolls, react to what the player characters wanted to do, and wove a few compelling npcs in addition to what was in the books already. TSR and WOTC have never made a game since that was so complete, detailed, and enjoyable.
We introduced a person who never played D&D to the game. At first she didn't know what to do, but once I introduced the merchant houses and trading she went all in on being a merchant queen! The campaign went into a 'our merchant house is the best and all others must perish' setting. A lot of fun for a new player and new direction for some veteran players who played along.
Picked up a boxset of dark sun last year, its an awesome setting really unique and makes you feel awesome when you start from nothing in the arena to venturing off on your own and thriving in the harsh world of athas.
I did Judo a few times with Troy Denning. Good guy! That setting was fantastic and evocative with the flavor text sidebars and art by Brom. Rising up against tyranny shouldn't be considered "problematic".
Dark Sun was the perfect example of what could be done using the rule set and a bit of creativity. It occupies a place of honor on my bookshelf because it was absolutely amazing.
One part Scanners, one part Day after Tomorrow, two parts Spartacus, three parts Mad Max Beyond ThunderDome, and a pinch of Dune, that is what Dark Sun is to me. ❤ It is second only to Ravenloft in deadliness. It is a fantasy version of the bronze age collapse. If WotC doesn't want to do anything with it, maybe it can be turned into an OSR product.
Speaking of moral values... maiming, killing, murdering, and stealing are unacceptable values in the modern-day world so why doesn't WotC remove them from Dungeons and Dragons as well? Oh, but wait... we must be allowed to slaughter monsters, creatures, and murder other humans in our RPG game! And we must be allowed to mug, rob, and steal from other people in our game! Theft, killing monsters, and murdering other humans are all PROBLEMATIC since they do not reflect modern social values and must be removed from the game! Now we see the problem with censorship in fictional games. If WotC finds "slavery" morally offensive, then they also need to remove all of the other morally offensive subjects of fictional explorations in alcohol, blood, cannibalism, child labor, cruelty, death, disease, drugs, famine, gambling, gods, gore, heresy, maiming, magic, monsters, murder, nudity, poison, poverty, prostitution, racism, religious concepts, robbery, sex, theft, torture, violence, and war!
Dark Sun was a classic magic world that had basically gone post-apocalyptic. That's how I saw it - Mad Max + Fallout + magic, essentially. I was pretty middle-road about the setting, but it was a very difficult one to survive in and I get how a lot of other D&Ders hated it. I don't see how a return would be 'problematic'. My thought is that this is just an excuse, - and the truth is maybe WOTC has worries about the rights to it?
I've read the Dark Sun boxed set. I don't see any "controversy": The setting paints slavery, exploitation, tyranny, ecological damage, and the individual selfishness vs the survival of the group as the main evils to go up against. This should be embraced with open arms by the Left who appear to find it "controversial" .. But, I'm glad WOTC isn't touching it. The original 2e books are amazing. There's no need to inject 5e "super"-heroic characters .
Personal I am very glad that WotC made their stance on Dark Sun official. They would have screwed it up royal, if they had tried to release it, see 4e Dark Sun and then add ultra PC sensibilities on top of that. The Fan community has been making new content for years, and does a much better job than WotC could ever do. I’ve been making content for the fan community for a few years myself, so I would love to see WotC just forget Dark Sun ever exists.
Great trip down memory lane. I bought it much like you; I was in the military and it showed up and I thought "wow, that looks pretty cool", and it is now one of my top 3 settings easily...I can see how it would be problematic for a corporation who is vulnerable to public opinion to create something exactly like this however I think the setting can definitely be "cleaned up "(although the way WoTC cleans things up is not very effective in my opinion). On a side note, I would have loved for Mickey to have a set of questions such as "what would you change if you could" as you had some great ideas and this would have given a lot of great structure to the conversation. Great job regardless!
The desert setting has always been great for me. I could not live there (I would miss the snow) but to visit and enjoy it is great. Although I do not miss the runs with nothing to look at except the horizon! I like the idea of 'What would you change'. Think we are going to steal that for an upcoming podcast. John was reminding me about the cannibal halflings and I couldn't stop laughing!
My favorite setting. It’s about actually confronting these evil ideas and practices. Tim Brown’s “spiritual successor” to Dark Sun is System-agnostic. The setting book is called Dragon Kings Worldbook. It’s available thru Soldier-Spy at studio2 publishing I think TH-cam nukes links) but it’s even better than Dark Sun and it’s not controlled by Hasbro.
Dark Sun being problematic is BS. Remember when game of thrones, a “grim dark” fantasy, was the hottest thing on tv in the 2010s? No one cried because of slavery, gore, SA, or any the shit happening on the show. Dark Sun can be done, and if done properly twitter would not care at all. Thing is, WotC has cultivated a PG-13 mainstream image, and thus claims Dark Sun is “problematic” to avoid having to challenge that. They’re just cowards
I think they may be waiting on this release as now are recent times would not have been the best time to release this campaign. I think they should take the more cautious route on this one before they have a Spelljammer repeat where the whole project comes to an abrupt stop.
I can get why some elements might need revamping for modern sensibilities like the backstory for the muls and half-giants, but overall I think you could salvage it.
A friend introduced me to Dark Sun over 20 years ago. I actually like the setting more now than it did then. Does wizards not wanna touch dark material in their dnd settings. I get that it might not appeal to the mainstream. Dark Sun didn't back in the day. Are dnd campaign settings today to be all sweetness and light?
We could use more difficult settings in the D&D Universe. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of great villains in the D&D world that people could use to make great campaigns. We did another podcast on The Lost City where I also talk about how difficult the start of the adventure is and how it builds characters.
The more I've read about it, the more I've come to love it. Its a terrible world, but its definitely a world where if you want to make a change, there's lot of stuff you can do to try and fix it. Outwardly it might look impossible, but that's the challenge. I probably wouldn't run it myself as is, as I like to create my own settings to play in and there's some trivial things that I'd personally include for myself, but this is definitely one I'm cribbing from for a future world-building project.
I would have appreciated a review of the setting as is versus the "controversary" behind it. Just tell us what the world is like and how it was to play in it.
This was more of a personal choice to have people who have never heard of it take a look at it. I think in the comments there are a few videos linked that guys give a way better description of the setting then I could ever do.
The real reason the devs won't touch Dark Sun is that the D&D game has evolved to rely so much on spellcasting (and even more so in 6E) that they'd have to completely redesign their game to allow most people to even play in it, either by changing how magic works or changing the setting into something it isn't. Their game model doesn't really do psionics well and they don't want to put the money into rebuilding it, so even then the most we'd get is a spell list that's just reflavored to ape psionics. You'll get people saying the slavery is the problematic bit but you can honestly not have slavery in it and not destroy the setting. The world is a harsh place and people are gonna flock to the only sources of safety they can get, even if they're not slaves they're not gonna have a great time. Realistically that and maybe one or two of the more grimy bits I can't name off the top of my head could be scrubbed without killing the character of the game, and really who cares about some greasy washed-up loser who goes off to bemoan the woke bogeyman stealing their nostalgia by removing it from the published book?
I did forget about the psionics and how it played a part in the setting. That would have to be reworked into something that kept the setting. I think the point of the setting was to keep magic in check or at least harder to use, which was also a challenge in itself. Good point. Like I said, you can always change what you don't like in any setting. Fury Road comes to mind when you say people flocking somewhere to safety. Their life was terrible around the mountains but at least there was water once in a while.
I remember buying the Dark Sun boxed set from my local game store when it first came out. I still have my copy of that and the revised edition. The setting was new and different and brilliant and I feel like Wizards of the Coast is missing a big opportunity by not revising it. I mean what's better than a story of a bunch of people from different walks of life finding a way to liberate themselves and work their way from powerless to powerful. Dark Sun was, in a lot of ways, way ahead of its time.
For me, TTRPG's and D&D especially has never been about being a hero or becoming a hero. I just want to play a character, that isn't me. One that doesn't have my, or modern morality. One that thinks and acts like they live in the world of that setting or game. The idea of being a hero in Dark sun is kinda funny. Your ultimate hero moment I suppose would be killing one of the remaining Sorcerer Kings / Queens. Then, you would have to rule the city and territory in their place, and look after it's inhabitants. While defending your territory from the other living SK's. What do you do when, after being the conquering hero who "frees" the city, the people want a little more water, food, freedom. You might say, well I give it to them, but does your new city have the resources to give more food and water? What happens when you tell the people, hey your cut off for the week, rely on your given weekly ration, which you should still have. They go, well I drank it all, your a hero, give me some. At what point do you become a dictator, rather than a hero?
First time watching a video on your channel. As soon as you mentioned you roll stats the classic(and correct) way by 3d6 in order, then working with what you got instantly earned my respect. You earned your Like, this comment and my subscription.
Thanks! Lol...I love random placed '3's that you have to deal with. How great are powerful wizards with a 3 in constitution and epic warriors with a a 4 in intelligence?
@@joshuaabe4832 I didn't know that, so what happens if you roll 20? Does it go into exceptional stats? I haven't played Dark Sun nor do I own it. I just recently got into old school/OSR and I've been building up a collection of BX and AD&D modules, some originals and some reprints. I'm happy I just completed my collection of the entire B series.
I don't get how fighting slavers in the pursuit of freedom is a negative somehow. "It removes agency" sure, it also happened to - a lot - of people over history, everywhere. It's unfortunately part of the human experience, ignoring it and pretending it never happened is much more disrespectful than acknowledging it and writing better stories for those wrapped up in it.
The old school White Box on the shelf lends you credence as a real authority on D&D games, just as you've tackled Dark Sun here, plus the OG Dark Sun boxset just seals the deal for me. I needed a new campaign world around the time this one came out. I remember Planescape, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, Maztica, Kara-tur, even Gamma World and many others from that same era, but needed just one more entire fantasy setting to sink our fangs into. We easily were able to dive into enough well-written material (as well as masterfully and artistically drawn by BROM) that our thirst for world hopping adventure was well slaked. It was intensely overpowered with not only starting out at 3rd level, but also nearly everyone was multi-classed, typically having three classes. I loved the Gladiator class, and the Half-Giant race. I would make sure to pay attention to size differences not only for characters and gear, but for the architecture and transportation needs in Athas; this high energy/desiccated world of extremes. I'm trying to understand what the problematic part was exactly, people seem to dance around the point. I can only assume it was because of the slavery issue, but when we ran campaigns I don't remember ever making note of that or keeping track of it or what exactly any influence that had on the game. This wasn't exactly a recreation of a Gor-like fantasy world. (even though it certainly could be if you wanted to weird-out like that). Perhaps it was so overwhelming that maybe the whole purpose of playing was to escape slavery and become one of the Dragon Kings (and a slave master) as the point of reaching end-game. If there were die roll tables listing numbers of slaves etc I guess my mind blocked that out and we did something else. If so, slavery could have not have been included at all and we'd still want to be rulers of the world. I mean come on, didn't everyone use the Deities and Demigods hardbook just like a Monster Manual 1.5 fighting and defeating every single entry in the book, (except for Elric who was cool enough to hang with us), or fly a Flit or Bubble Car around the towers of the City of Greyhawk making the Avengers look like a Boy Scout troop of Cubs, right? That's also including the insanely powerful Psionic abilities nearly every single creature on the planet had. So the power levels of Dark Sun were exactly what we needed to match our desire for Monty Hall levels of power. I'm sure that wasn't the cringe part of Dark Sun. I would also think the environmental factors of magic-use destroying everything around and having the choice to follow the progression path of a supreme Arch-Druid of some kind to save the world of Dark Sun would fit in well with any generation of players. To us it was a John Carter, Mad Max-like experience, certainly one where you started out as relatively weak with no resources or social standing maybe even held in captivity, but also playing in a high-fantasy world setting with power-level extremes players could still strive to attain. Slavery was not something I can imaging anyone would actually incorporate into their acted out role playing, even in this setting. Simply ignore or remove that aspect and this setting could easily make a come-back. Or maybe players these days only play games without any cringe factors like a Tele-tubbies campaign with She-Ra and My Magic Pony collaborating with a magic fairy dust snorting, benevolent multicolored scatological ambrosia pooping unicorn god(ess) that will make the entire world a socially non-politcal safe place (with bad voice acting). AND even THAT could be done in a Dark Sun setting!
I think you kind of nailed it on the head. Between the slavery and environmental concerns there was enough there to get people complaining. Back when we originally played we never even thought of it that way. It was more the challenge of getting out of the terrible situation we were in and ending up in another. I know they recently announced they would not be revisiting DARK SUN anytime soon so that is good. Maybe in the future they can bring it back with some honor. Lol...thanks by the way for giving me the 'street creed' of the white box D&D. I do love my old stuff.
I think the reason for its problems have more to do with character creation than anything else. First they have been shafted for every attempt at a PSI system they tried so far. Second the races in Dark Sun have been way more forced than other settings, with a very specific understanding about what a halfling, dwarf, elf or half giant should be. This breaks the "be anything" freedom that 5e was founded on. So as he said, they would have to really decide hard on many things and no matter what they do they will face major criticism.
Dark Sun is a great setting of a super dark world. Comparing any other game setting maybe Warhammer either medieval or 40k. If you read the books if can get really,really dark. Now generally you created 2 level 3 character's. The main character adventures getting full experience points. The second character got half from each adventure. The setting was a super lethal game. Just like Call of Cthulthu due to it's insanity feature. You play the game knowing your character probably will not survive. That made it fun.
I do remember really enjoying the books. Great stories in the setting. Most characters did not make it. As we used to the say...the Halflings got them!
It’s the dying planet theme, it is clearly influenced by such novels. It is in my opinion “problematic” because it is anti magic and uses psionics & WotC has made every class basically have magic and the few classes with psionics are totally done differently. So they would have to rework classes for the product. They imply it’s for other reasons but anyone into it knows it’s that desperate world of messed up societies which PCs might or might not be able to change.
Good point on the psionics. I kind of forgot about that. That was kind of a big part of the background. I will have to take a look at how psionics work in 5e, but I am going to guess it would not fit as well.
@@ImmortalsInc They made a couple classes, pretty uniform and that’s it… so you won’t get the tag on modularity you really need, then they have over magiced 5E. Can it be converted? Yes, but it will take love and more uniqueness than WotC is probably willing to do.
It is problematic from a design perspective. 5E is a casual game designed to make every round feel heroic. Darksun wanted you to feel oppressed for a few levels despite being much stronger than a typical D&D character. Another thing is that so much would have to be changed in the base game too work for Darksun, most classes are casters and the isn't much design space to make psionics a thing this late in the life of the game. The settings books for 5E are dandified adventures with a few pages for settings. It is probably best to just play Dark Sun in 2nd or 4th editions.
I am starting to see that the mechanics could also be a problem with 5e from all the other comments. If the problem is the cost of coming up with a whole new system I can agree with that.
Wizards of the Coast is located in woke USA and in their eco-centric bubble they believe that the majority of all D&D players are equally woke. The heroic themes are; Inclusion, the environment and censorship of anyone who doesn't agree with them. Having a world with slaves and environmental disaster will trigger some of the snow flakes who play D&D. Personally I don't care who plays D&D, what their world view is or how they like to play the game, I just wish we can have an official game world that is gritter than the fluff we normally see. If it triggers some people they don't have to play it. Fortunately there are some good 3rd party campaign settings that have a gritty feel.
The idea that there shouldn't be a dark sun publication for 5e because the content is "problematic" is so insane to me. Like yeah... everything is problematic that's why I'm the hero...to solve the problem. Slavery is bad, let's free them!
I wouldn't mind a dark sun game myself. In fact I also wouldn't mind seeing a greyhawk sourcebook or a dragonlance sourcebook(instead of the small campaign book that came out) but back on Dark Sun. Even though I would like to see a Dark Sun 5e, I am aware of some players in one of my groups who consist of people who only know and played 5e that also show interest in Dark Sun also seem to to sound like they would "nerf" the world. Like they talk on how they would like the idea of playing in this bleak world, but also seem to be going in it acting like they are playing overpowered Mary Sues, and if I tell them that Dark Sun deals with having to snuggle with a dying world and trying to survive they either glare at me or then bring the idea on being murder hobos and go off killing everyone.
@@ImmortalsInc That is true. Was just that they say they want to go in it because it is "harsh and cruel" but are also seem to be wanting to do it like a cartoon to where they are gods in this harsh world and, again, not realizing how hardcore it is.
I've loved Dark Sun since it first came out. I used AD&D2e and then a C&C conversion about a decade ago and it was great. But I wish Whalers of the Coast would just sell the IP if they won't use it to another system. D100 type like OpenQuest or Savage Worlds would be perfect if officially set in (though Savage Worlds had Dragon Kings setting which was a copy of DS). In the end, just stick w/the pre-novel Tyr.
In the beginning of the game I think you belong to King Tectuktitlay of Draj. The reason they let you edit stats pre-game is so you can transfer existing characters to the game, like from a tabletop D&D game.
@@ImmortalsIncIt was the first D&D game I really liked better than Ultima (not a D&D game but it was my standards bar). It had everything... music, decent graphics, huge world, an actual story that didn't suck... SSI was awesome.
As many people have already mentioned the "problematic," content is actually handled really well in Dark Sun. You are literally fighting to restore a corrupt world that has been literally defiled by evil wizards. It's a fantastic setting and I wish they would bring it back..
You are preaching to the choir. Your rise to be the great hero of the land is actually filled with real challenges. Starting out at the bottom and making it to top is rewarding in this type of setting. Not everyone is going to make it. As long as you don't become stew for the halflings consider yourself ahead of the game.
You need to face the bad stuff, slavery, racial hate, evil in power, to know what a hero looks like. They need to fight evil to truly be good. Leave dark sun as is.
It's amazing that things like dark sun, oriental adventures, etc is considered problematic....and yet the very some groups of people probably devour books and shows such as game of thrones(disclaimer: the early seasons) with relish at their grimness and " realism".
That WotC doesn't want to revist the setting because it finds it "problematic" isn't such a terrible thing based on the last nearly 20 years of D&D setting rewrites. I mean they have destroyed every setting TSR created, real trash tier souless garbage that invokes none of the feelings I remember having the first time I opened up a Greyhawk, original Forgotten Realms book so why should we trust WotC after the garbage fire that was Dark Sun 4th edition. WotC has never added anything of value to the D&D line, only watering down the settings more and more with each revision. Original Dark Sun is easily ported to and runs perfectly well with many OSR games like Old School Essentials Advanced edition.. WotC products are completely unneeded. There's enough material for DS out and easily and cheaply available on POD and PDF to run a game forever if you so desire.
Nice. Dark Sun will always have a special place in gaming for me. It was the first box set I purchased when I got out of the service and was happy to enjoy the setting with some new gaming friends. Hopefully your players have the same experience with you.
The problem isn't the settings it's the a-holes that like to glorify the problematic aspects of the settings but it hasn't stopped them from printing Strahd the number one great written villain that horrible people give D&D a bad name by glorifying nor should they because the game's about freedom and people just shouldn't play with those a-holes and they they should BRING BACK DARKSUN!
I'd love to see Dark Sun make a return. Though with the themes of slaves, eugenics, and cannibalism it would have a very hard time on twitter. Large companies put a lot of resources into their online presence and take the loud voices there seriously. Not sure wotc could weather such a storm after recent events. That stuff besides the mechanical challenges, which I don't think the current wotc is up to. Hopefully 3d party developers find the audience to warrant a box set type release. I would trust them more to do it right anyway.
Why would you want WotC to weather the storm? TSR printed the first set of rules in 1974. There's been five and a half editions plus Basic D&D in the intervening forty nine years. They could never print another rule book, setting, module, etc, and it wouldn't matter at all. How many editions of the same thing do we need? How many watered down, soulless reprints of the classics are required? Fuck WotC. They can keep their Woke garbage. I've been playing this game since I was 10, back in 1983. Yeah, im fucking old as dirt. I remember when D&D was a popular fad, until the Satanic Panic, Phil Donahue, Mazes and Monsters, and all that BS. Then came the Dark Years of D&D. Myself and the other guardians of the flame stayed with the game for the 30+ years that D&D was not cool. Not cool to the point of being social suicide if you admitted to most people that you played the game. Recently I watched a movie on the art of Dungeons and Dragons. Some chick said something along the lines of the game needing to be "rescued from white guys in their Mother's basement" or some such tripe. Apparently WotC agrees with her statement, it wasn't edited out. So yeah, this white guy who loves the game can't wait til WotC completely destroys itself, the fair weather players flee, and the game once again becomes the antithesis of cool. Then those of us who truly love it can go back to rolling dice in the shadows. Thus endeth my rant But really, to the Hellfires with WotC Like Gary Gygax himself once said, "The Dirty little secret of D&D is, you don't need any rulebooks to play the game" or something to that effect. And he's right. All you need is pencil, paper, dice, consistent rulings, and imagination. Plus two to four friends. In person, sitting around a table. Ok, now I'm done
I think I would have loved gaming with this host. He has my same feelings about character development. I loved this setting. Every creature having psionics was a different and big part of it. I think it struggled in identity. Many of the familiar races and classes were gone or changed. The creatures were mostly all new rather than from traditional AD&D. Putting a couple of novels or comics out ahead of the release would have helped with enthusiasm and acceptance. It was pretty much desert. That made it nearly impossible to create some types of scenarios. I don't think there was metal in Athas either, so weapons and armor and money were way different. It was really foreign to regular players.
Thanks! Numbers can build a character over time and make great stories and games. I totally forgot a lack of metal in the game! I remember introducing a metal sword in game and all Hell broke loose. I didn't think it was a big deal, but the players really played it up as a sacred item willing to maintain possession at almost any cost.
This is the problem with so many things these days: everything gets watered down (or shelved outright) to cater to the most hypersensitive person imaginable. If you don't like Dark Sun's themes, then don't buy it or buy it and change them. I'm tired of us all being expected to tiptoe through life because some emotionally frail person somewhere MAY be offended by something.
Yeah, exactly. If people find something so "problematic" that they don't want to engage with it, then they should just NOT ENGAGE WITH IT. It's that simple lol
@@Arthas30000 Yeah, but attention is addicting, and we all know that babies get attention by crying and howling about whatever they are upset by in the moment.
Plenty of alternative to D&D exist if you are not a fan of WOTC. One could also modify any of the worlds out there to reflect the tastes of the DM and the players. Corporations are going to act like corporations however we all can play the game as we see fit.
You failed to mention any reason why it could be considered problematic and any argument against it. This video feels like just groaning while adding nothing to any meaningful conversation. I dont know the setting and now I just know you are personally nostalgic about it, not a very interesting video.
You are correct. It seems from the comments why the main reason people think it is problematic, which maybe the reason, but I am also seeing others. The use of psionics and changes to the spellcasting. The poor financial showings from the first print. The environmental concerns and lack of moral compass that the setting can inspire and, of course, the large part that slavery played in the setting. I am personally nostalgic about it. It means something to me and hated to have someone call it a problem and let a good setting or story not get enjoyed. Most of our videos are pretty straight forward about a game with an occasion foray into opinions. We are working on it and your comment will help us improve. I truly mean that as we want to succeed and do better. If you have never entered the setting I would suggest grabbing one of the novels by Troy Denning. He does an excellent job getting you involved in the world and would help you way better then I could in knowing all about it.
I think there are two main arguments to the setting being problematic. One is kinda valid, the sterotyping of races. WotC is stearing away from beings born evil, lineage is the hereditary but a lot of stuff is upbringing and culture. But simply move these elements, aka subrace, into background. To counter, almost everyone is shifted to evil or at least selfishness. Just to survive. So no evil races at all. While law and tyranny go hand in hand, so does freedom and crime. Personally I like a grey moral area and difficult choices for players. The other is slavery, and for any fantasy setting that should imo be the default. Most settings are far worse. Not only are almost all people powerless peasants, they are assumed to be 0 level npc's that never can amount to anything. In any medieval society you have a handfull of nobles, a small caste of free citizens like guildsmen and officers but most people are like slaves. Children are literally the property of their parents, and sadly often women are too. Dark Sun is a tough world, but is fully gender equal and anyone can rise up to become anything. Maybe slavery is more in-your-face, but I think it's less problematic than having all the misery and just ignoring its existence. Btw, in my campaign lineage wasn't even fixed, elemental priest can transform themselves slowly into one of the four genie types, turning into a bloodline, halfbreed or eventually full genie. Mystics, a mix of monk and psion can also metamorphose into an outsider. If mixed with druid they can become pyreen, a shapeshifting psion that collects traits from all species. Mages (mixing wizard and sorceror freely) can start their dragon metamorphosis like the sorceror-monarchs or become a mysterious avengion. I love these epic elements, and prefer a gradually accumulation of these benefits instead after a silly amounts of levels. So I made a complete overhaul based on multiclassing. Half your levels are your main class, the rest a mix of secondary classes, psion and the mystic, which contains the "racial" supernatural passive abilities, similar to monks and druids have and anything 3E would have ECL for.
Like I get why you have feelings for this setting, but maybe you should explain what the controversy is instead skirting around it the entire video before begging for a subscription.
I think other people have said plenty about the controversy so I was leaving that for them. I just wanted to let people know to get out and look at the setting. I appreciate the comment and will use it to improve as we go forward and venture more into opinion and timely material.
I think, if the official channel doesn't want to make the thing you like? You should just make it yourself. Or just go pirate it. They don't want to make the money? Then don't give money to them.
I hate today’s current mindset of everything must be for everyone. Really ruins stuff, you can’t handle a dark grim setting well then go find something else. Just because you see something you don’t like doesn’t mean you have to get rid of it because remember other people live in this planet too you ain’t the main character.
In the early days of DND, the game in general was considered problematic (Evil) to many because of the presence of demons and magic. Now by the same logic Dark Sun is problematic because of the existence of slavery and racism. These games were never praising or exalting bad things, but had your characters rise up to fight against wickedness and tyranny, whether for the greater good or just simply survival.
Get a grip: the problem with Dark Sun is not that it deals with slavery, racism and sexism but that it creates a world where playing into slavery, racism and sexism are incentivized. It's completely normal for players to own women, slaves and torture NPCs in Dark Sun because that's how that world works, and that makes it very problematic considering racism, sexism and slavery and not just fantasy but actual dangers in our society.
Aren't most things in fantasy actual dangers in society? At least in one form or another. I am also not sure what version you are reading, but as players characters none of those things should be incentivized. Unless of course you are playing an evil character which kind of goes against the whole point of the game.
@@ImmortalsInc maybe you missed the point: in Dark Sun you're not the hero, freeing slaves and emancipating women. You're just a dude trying to survive and battling evil sorcerers. The setting doesn't deal with problematic themes in a meaningful way for players to develop their own critique about them, they are just presented as part of the "natural" way Dark Sun works.
They could just reflavor it a bit. Instead of slaves the players would be wage slaves. Instead of being subjected to the evil tyranny of dragons, they would have to fight the evil tyranny of capitalism. It would sell loke hotcakes in todays market lol
What do you mean when you say "problematic"? Does this book contain woke things? Does it spew hate against normal family units? Is it inherently Christophobic? Remember, the majority of the world thinks radically different than secular californians and it makes no sense to use their language.
I am not sure where you were going with that, but this game supplement would be considered anything but 'woke'. Pretty 'anti-woke' if you ask me. Nothing about family units specifically unless you count the noble and trade houses that are a major part of the world. Christianity really isn't mentioned at any point that I remember. There is a lot of religious mentions or character classes of a large variety. I would agree that certain parts of this Country have their own language, at a least a variation of English. Other then that I am unsure where you were going with that last sentence either.
Of course the setting about environmentalism and a critique of the worse excess of capitalism in fantasy form would be seen as problematic. :/ People are so stupid.
I think an adaptation of Dark Sun that softens the expression but in no way alters the core of the misery of society is entirely possible. If the word "slavery" is so offensive. (Which it isn't of course. Most slavery in human history was not race-based and most slaves' lives were much more miserable than those of the Blacks in America.) The themes of environmental preservation and a corrupt oligarchic society are also excellent starting points for creating the world.
Great Game System. It was Kenshi the Table top RPG. Serious people, and it was Gorkamorka before Gorkamorka. These sucky Wizards of the Woke are just dumb. These are the parasites we were warned about that when you open up your hobby to EVERYONE, they come in and take over and destroy it from the inside. Played a Maul for a few levels. The game was tough. You end up wanting to kill your magic users, because they start hurting everyone. Mauls were your Conan/ Thundarr type players.
I do remember a few sessions where we had to deal with some magic-users. But then that is where good role-playing came into the picture. Great story telling as you resolve disputes within the party and the moral implications of what you are doing.
Best setting ever. Ran dark sun for a number of years and people still visit my obsidian portal campaign despite it not being run for years.
I agree as the best setting. The challenges it brings are what molds heroes.
That's not a good thing, you're just lazy.
Too bad Wizards just spent a couple months destroying their third party developer community. Its almost like Dark Sun would be something they could allow a 3rd party to develop and publish so they get the setting without personally having the backlash.
There is a game called Dragon Kings we did review that I think did a pretty good job of it.
Minor correction. The city states were ruled by wizard kings who wanted to ascend into becoming dragons. There was only one dragon and it was well beyond anything you see in other D&D settings. Anyways, the problematic part is it not only had slavery but it didn't shy away from the horrors of what that would mean.
You are correct. I realized it after watching the video after editing that I misspoke about the wizard kings. There was only one dragon and he was god-like. There is a lot of mature themes in the game which does make it challenging, but that should be the thing that makes it interesting.
@@ImmortalsInc Agreed, well spoken. In a recent example George RR Martin covered several contriversal themes and was celebrated for it.
the sorcerer kings all had at least one or two levels in in dragon though which makes them dragons but only fledglings.
I think their reasoning for not putting it out is "troubling".
But just to clear up our rosy-red memories of the setting - NO Dark Sun product (outside of the novels) made any money back in the day. Each product was a loss.
You can read all about it in "Slaying the Dragon: History of Dungeons & Dragons"
So, some people liked it. Liked it a lot in fact. But not enough people. Most likely because it was "special" and the majority just want their Forgotten Realms with all the normal fantasy stuff in it.
But it is a shame if the setting is shelved for the wrong reasons.
I will have to read that book as I find that interesting. As from what I can remember I can believe the financial problem of the setting. They did put a lot of stuff out for it is a rather short time. Maybe the Core setting release would be nice, but a whole line of products would probably not be good financially. There is plenty of source material out there to build campaigns and adventures.
@@ImmortalsInc and it is not alone - Planescape, another well regarded setting likewise made no money.
I think those of us who DM have encountered the problem. We read or hear about a great setting but our players just want to play the generic "everything is in this setting" where they can choose any race and class they want and so on.
I read that book as well, and you make a very good point. A small part of me wonders if they said it was problematic because they know it would be a problem profitting from it. I really don't think that the idea of slavery or savagery is their hang up... heck, forgotten realms has that. I think the real moral issue is that it's a game setting that wants the PC dead, and they've been grooming DMs over the last few years to avoid killing players at all costs. My two cents. Good point about the book, though! 👍
@Jason Hawkins give us an example of slavery in the current Forgotten Realms setting? Because... now even the illithids seek consent before you get a tadpole. 😆
@@ImmortalsInc yeah - it’s a really good summary of the business up to the purchase of TSR by WOTC. The overall messaging was that by publishing what -8 different campaigns - by the end (1995) all they were doing was cannibalizing their own sales. X numbers have only x numbers of dollars for sales. If you split that across the 8 different settings - plus the fact there was little crossover - meant that each individual line had a real
Problem making money. I had thought it was only Planescape that didn’t make anything - but it could have been Dark Sun as well.
That being said - there were a lot of reasons that TSR went under. I mean really boneheaded business decisions. Not making those mistakes makes me feel that TSR cousin have course corrected to be profitable.
Nothing in Dark Sun that is not also in Game of Thrones. Slavery check, War check, Apocalypse After A Calamity check, Loss of Magic check, Hopeless and Desperate Vibes check, The Feeling Only The Protagonists Give A Damn And Everyone Else Is Happy Ruling Over Rubble check. Plus Dark Sun has some great additional lore. It and Eberron are the two most complete feeling setting in my opinion. People embraced Game of Thrones and people would embrace Dark Sun if they presented it correctly. The themes are not problematic, WotC not being able to deliver is.
Well said.
I think that you guys are right. Challenge is missing from 5e in general and by level 10, your character is a golden age superhero.
Also, I don't understand how a game where you battle against slavery and tyranny is "problematic" when you have players that can willingly make deals with devils and not be considered evil.
You’ve hit the nail on the head with the devil deals. WOTC has problematic products but they don’t give a damn about the people that are offended by them because it’s just a game…. Except the terminally left are now the Concern Queens and haven’t been told to suck eggs by the broader community just yet. We WILL recognise this as a weak time for art as a result. The 80s gave us D&D and heavy metal and horror movies - we aren’t getting the same resurgence of culture now.
disagree, 5e monsters are just unbalanced its easy to challenge a party
Dark Sun is amazing, and absolutely my favorite setting of all time. Running the setting was smooth as silk due to all of the tables for weather, special events, and economic fluctuations. Every detail on the Tyr Region map was something mentioned in the first six supplement books, and there was an epic game mode for levels 20 and up that allowed for more powerful versions of everything. Even the rogue classes were special, with bards being more like assassins and merchants being their own rogue class. So much was written out and established that, as a DM, there wasn't much I had to fill in. I just made encounter rolls, react to what the player characters wanted to do, and wove a few compelling npcs in addition to what was in the books already. TSR and WOTC have never made a game since that was so complete, detailed, and enjoyable.
We introduced a person who never played D&D to the game. At first she didn't know what to do, but once I introduced the merchant houses and trading she went all in on being a merchant queen! The campaign went into a 'our merchant house is the best and all others must perish' setting. A lot of fun for a new player and new direction for some veteran players who played along.
Picked up a boxset of dark sun last year, its an awesome setting really unique and makes you feel awesome when you start from nothing in the arena to venturing off on your own and thriving in the harsh world of athas.
That is the best part. You start with nothing so every little thing found it a great treasure.
I did Judo a few times with Troy Denning. Good guy!
That setting was fantastic and evocative with the flavor text sidebars and art by Brom. Rising up against tyranny shouldn't be considered "problematic".
The artwork by Brom of course is one of the best. I didn't even get into that!
Dark Sun was the perfect example of what could be done using the rule set and a bit of creativity. It occupies a place of honor on my bookshelf because it was absolutely amazing.
It was one of the more creative worlds at the time of the release. If anyone enjoyed a desert setting this the was the campaign for you.
One part Scanners, one part Day after Tomorrow, two parts Spartacus, three parts Mad Max Beyond ThunderDome, and a pinch of Dune, that is what Dark Sun is to me. ❤ It is second only to Ravenloft in deadliness. It is a fantasy version of the bronze age collapse.
If WotC doesn't want to do anything with it, maybe it can be turned into an OSR product.
Very nicely put.
Speaking of moral values... maiming, killing, murdering, and stealing are unacceptable values in the modern-day world so why doesn't WotC remove them from Dungeons and Dragons as well? Oh, but wait... we must be allowed to slaughter monsters, creatures, and murder other humans in our RPG game! And we must be allowed to mug, rob, and steal from other people in our game! Theft, killing monsters, and murdering other humans are all PROBLEMATIC since they do not reflect modern social values and must be removed from the game! Now we see the problem with censorship in fictional games. If WotC finds "slavery" morally offensive, then they also need to remove all of the other morally offensive subjects of fictional explorations in alcohol, blood, cannibalism, child labor, cruelty, death, disease, drugs, famine, gambling, gods, gore, heresy, maiming, magic, monsters, murder, nudity, poison, poverty, prostitution, racism, religious concepts, robbery, sex, theft, torture, violence, and war!
Well said.
Dark Sun was a classic magic world that had basically gone post-apocalyptic. That's how I saw it - Mad Max + Fallout + magic, essentially. I was pretty middle-road about the setting, but it was a very difficult one to survive in and I get how a lot of other D&Ders hated it.
I don't see how a return would be 'problematic'. My thought is that this is just an excuse, - and the truth is maybe WOTC has worries about the rights to it?
Love the Mad Max + Fallout + Magic reference. I haven't even given a thought to the rights part. I will have to look into that.
I've read the Dark Sun boxed set. I don't see any "controversy": The setting paints slavery, exploitation, tyranny, ecological damage, and the individual selfishness vs the survival of the group as the main evils to go up against. This should be embraced with open arms by the Left who appear to find it "controversial" .. But, I'm glad WOTC isn't touching it. The original 2e books are amazing. There's no need to inject 5e "super"-heroic characters .
The liberal center is hardly left lol, every communist I know likes Dark Sun
Personal I am very glad that WotC made their stance on Dark Sun official. They would have screwed it up royal, if they had tried to release it, see 4e Dark Sun and then add ultra PC sensibilities on top of that. The Fan community has been making new content for years, and does a much better job than WotC could ever do. I’ve been making content for the fan community for a few years myself, so I would love to see WotC just forget Dark Sun ever exists.
There you go. Make the game play the way you want it to play.
@@toddsummerwind exactly, I scrub through 2e canon for the setting, and make my content feel like original Dark Sun.
a comment for the comment gods...
seriously keep em comin bois, well done...
Thanks!
Great trip down memory lane. I bought it much like you; I was in the military and it showed up and I thought "wow, that looks pretty cool", and it is now one of my top 3 settings easily...I can see how it would be problematic for a corporation who is vulnerable to public opinion to create something exactly like this however I think the setting can definitely be "cleaned up "(although the way WoTC cleans things up is not very effective in my opinion). On a side note, I would have loved for Mickey to have a set of questions such as "what would you change if you could" as you had some great ideas and this would have given a lot of great structure to the conversation. Great job regardless!
The desert setting has always been great for me. I could not live there (I would miss the snow) but to visit and enjoy it is great. Although I do not miss the runs with nothing to look at except the horizon!
I like the idea of 'What would you change'. Think we are going to steal that for an upcoming podcast. John was reminding me about the cannibal halflings and I couldn't stop laughing!
My favorite setting. It’s about actually confronting these evil ideas and practices. Tim Brown’s “spiritual successor” to Dark Sun is System-agnostic. The setting book is called Dragon Kings Worldbook. It’s available thru Soldier-Spy at studio2 publishing I think TH-cam nukes links) but it’s even better than Dark Sun and it’s not controlled by Hasbro.
I think I can get that. I will grab a few copies for the store.
Dark Sun being problematic is BS. Remember when game of thrones, a “grim dark” fantasy, was the hottest thing on tv in the 2010s? No one cried because of slavery, gore, SA, or any the shit happening on the show. Dark Sun can be done, and if done properly twitter would not care at all. Thing is, WotC has cultivated a PG-13 mainstream image, and thus claims Dark Sun is “problematic” to avoid having to challenge that. They’re just cowards
I think they may be waiting on this release as now are recent times would not have been the best time to release this campaign. I think they should take the more cautious route on this one before they have a Spelljammer repeat where the whole project comes to an abrupt stop.
I can get why some elements might need revamping for modern sensibilities like the backstory for the muls and half-giants, but overall I think you could salvage it.
I think a 3rd party would do it justice today. The muls and half-giants are what kind of set the tone for the whole setting.
A friend introduced me to Dark Sun over 20 years ago. I actually like the setting more now than it did then. Does wizards not wanna touch dark material in their dnd settings. I get that it might not appeal to the mainstream. Dark Sun didn't back in the day. Are dnd campaign settings today to be all sweetness and light?
We could use more difficult settings in the D&D Universe. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of great villains in the D&D world that people could use to make great campaigns. We did another podcast on The Lost City where I also talk about how difficult the start of the adventure is and how it builds characters.
I also like Dark Sun better than I did in the 90s and I loved it back then. Such a well crafted world.
The more I've read about it, the more I've come to love it. Its a terrible world, but its definitely a world where if you want to make a change, there's lot of stuff you can do to try and fix it. Outwardly it might look impossible, but that's the challenge.
I probably wouldn't run it myself as is, as I like to create my own settings to play in and there's some trivial things that I'd personally include for myself, but this is definitely one I'm cribbing from for a future world-building project.
I would have appreciated a review of the setting as is versus the "controversary" behind it. Just tell us what the world is like and how it was to play in it.
This was more of a personal choice to have people who have never heard of it take a look at it. I think in the comments there are a few videos linked that guys give a way better description of the setting then I could ever do.
The real reason the devs won't touch Dark Sun is that the D&D game has evolved to rely so much on spellcasting (and even more so in 6E) that they'd have to completely redesign their game to allow most people to even play in it, either by changing how magic works or changing the setting into something it isn't. Their game model doesn't really do psionics well and they don't want to put the money into rebuilding it, so even then the most we'd get is a spell list that's just reflavored to ape psionics.
You'll get people saying the slavery is the problematic bit but you can honestly not have slavery in it and not destroy the setting. The world is a harsh place and people are gonna flock to the only sources of safety they can get, even if they're not slaves they're not gonna have a great time. Realistically that and maybe one or two of the more grimy bits I can't name off the top of my head could be scrubbed without killing the character of the game, and really who cares about some greasy washed-up loser who goes off to bemoan the woke bogeyman stealing their nostalgia by removing it from the published book?
I did forget about the psionics and how it played a part in the setting. That would have to be reworked into something that kept the setting. I think the point of the setting was to keep magic in check or at least harder to use, which was also a challenge in itself. Good point.
Like I said, you can always change what you don't like in any setting. Fury Road comes to mind when you say people flocking somewhere to safety. Their life was terrible around the mountains but at least there was water once in a while.
@@ImmortalsInc no argument here
I remember buying the Dark Sun boxed set from my local game store when it first came out. I still have my copy of that and the revised edition. The setting was new and different and brilliant and I feel like Wizards of the Coast is missing a big opportunity by not revising it. I mean what's better than a story of a bunch of people from different walks of life finding a way to liberate themselves and work their way from powerless to powerful. Dark Sun was, in a lot of ways, way ahead of its time.
It truly was.
For me, TTRPG's and D&D especially has never been about being a hero or becoming a hero. I just want to play a character, that isn't me. One that doesn't have my, or modern morality. One that thinks and acts like they live in the world of that setting or game.
The idea of being a hero in Dark sun is kinda funny. Your ultimate hero moment I suppose would be killing one of the remaining Sorcerer Kings / Queens. Then, you would have to rule the city and territory in their place, and look after it's inhabitants. While defending your territory from the other living SK's. What do you do when, after being the conquering hero who "frees" the city, the people want a little more water, food, freedom. You might say, well I give it to them, but does your new city have the resources to give more food and water? What happens when you tell the people, hey your cut off for the week, rely on your given weekly ration, which you should still have. They go, well I drank it all, your a hero, give me some. At what point do you become a dictator, rather than a hero?
That is part of the challenge. People do often forget the 'what happens after' the adventure or uprising.
Domain management is not fun, you’d retire the character once you killed a sorcerer king or two, especially if you’d leveled the character past 20.
First time watching a video on your channel. As soon as you mentioned you roll stats the classic(and correct) way by 3d6 in order, then working with what you got instantly earned my respect. You earned your Like, this comment and my subscription.
In Dark Sun you roll 5d4
Thanks! Lol...I love random placed '3's that you have to deal with. How great are powerful wizards with a 3 in constitution and epic warriors with a a 4 in intelligence?
@@joshuaabe4832 I didn't know that, so what happens if you roll 20? Does it go into exceptional stats?
I haven't played Dark Sun nor do I own it. I just recently got into old school/OSR and I've been building up a collection of BX and AD&D modules, some originals and some reprints. I'm happy I just completed my collection of the entire B series.
I don't get how fighting slavers in the pursuit of freedom is a negative somehow. "It removes agency" sure, it also happened to - a lot - of people over history, everywhere. It's unfortunately part of the human experience, ignoring it and pretending it never happened is much more disrespectful than acknowledging it and writing better stories for those wrapped up in it.
The old school White Box on the shelf lends you credence as a real authority on D&D games, just as you've tackled Dark Sun here, plus the OG Dark Sun boxset just seals the deal for me. I needed a new campaign world around the time this one came out. I remember Planescape, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, Maztica, Kara-tur, even Gamma World and many others from that same era, but needed just one more entire fantasy setting to sink our fangs into. We easily were able to dive into enough well-written material (as well as masterfully and artistically drawn by BROM) that our thirst for world hopping adventure was well slaked. It was intensely overpowered with not only starting out at 3rd level, but also nearly everyone was multi-classed, typically having three classes. I loved the Gladiator class, and the Half-Giant race. I would make sure to pay attention to size differences not only for characters and gear, but for the architecture and transportation needs in Athas; this high energy/desiccated world of extremes.
I'm trying to understand what the problematic part was exactly, people seem to dance around the point. I can only assume it was because of the slavery issue, but when we ran campaigns I don't remember ever making note of that or keeping track of it or what exactly any influence that had on the game. This wasn't exactly a recreation of a Gor-like fantasy world. (even though it certainly could be if you wanted to weird-out like that).
Perhaps it was so overwhelming that maybe the whole purpose of playing was to escape slavery and become one of the Dragon Kings (and a slave master) as the point of reaching end-game. If there were die roll tables listing numbers of slaves etc I guess my mind blocked that out and we did something else. If so, slavery could have not have been included at all and we'd still want to be rulers of the world.
I mean come on, didn't everyone use the Deities and Demigods hardbook just like a Monster Manual 1.5 fighting and defeating every single entry in the book, (except for Elric who was cool enough to hang with us), or fly a Flit or Bubble Car around the towers of the City of Greyhawk making the Avengers look like a Boy Scout troop of Cubs, right? That's also including the insanely powerful Psionic abilities nearly every single creature on the planet had. So the power levels of Dark Sun were exactly what we needed to match our desire for Monty Hall levels of power. I'm sure that wasn't the cringe part of Dark Sun.
I would also think the environmental factors of magic-use destroying everything around and having the choice to follow the progression path of a supreme Arch-Druid of some kind to save the world of Dark Sun would fit in well with any generation of players.
To us it was a John Carter, Mad Max-like experience, certainly one where you started out as relatively weak with no resources or social standing maybe even held in captivity, but also playing in a high-fantasy world setting with power-level extremes players could still strive to attain. Slavery was not something I can imaging anyone would actually incorporate into their acted out role playing, even in this setting. Simply ignore or remove that aspect and this setting could easily make a come-back. Or maybe players these days only play games without any cringe factors like a Tele-tubbies campaign with She-Ra and My Magic Pony collaborating with a magic fairy dust snorting, benevolent multicolored scatological ambrosia pooping unicorn god(ess) that will make the entire world a socially non-politcal safe place (with bad voice acting). AND even THAT could be done in a Dark Sun setting!
I think you kind of nailed it on the head. Between the slavery and environmental concerns there was enough there to get people complaining. Back when we originally played we never even thought of it that way. It was more the challenge of getting out of the terrible situation we were in and ending up in another.
I know they recently announced they would not be revisiting DARK SUN anytime soon so that is good. Maybe in the future they can bring it back with some honor.
Lol...thanks by the way for giving me the 'street creed' of the white box D&D. I do love my old stuff.
I think the reason for its problems have more to do with character creation than anything else. First they have been shafted for every attempt at a PSI system they tried so far. Second the races in Dark Sun have been way more forced than other settings, with a very specific understanding about what a halfling, dwarf, elf or half giant should be. This breaks the "be anything" freedom that 5e was founded on. So as he said, they would have to really decide hard on many things and no matter what they do they will face major criticism.
Dark Sun is a great setting of a super dark world. Comparing any other game setting maybe Warhammer either medieval or 40k.
If you read the books if can get really,really dark.
Now generally you created 2 level 3 character's. The main character adventures getting full experience points. The second character got half from each adventure.
The setting was a super lethal game. Just like Call of Cthulthu due to it's insanity feature.
You play the game knowing your character probably will not survive. That made it fun.
I do remember really enjoying the books. Great stories in the setting. Most characters did not make it. As we used to the say...the Halflings got them!
It’s the dying planet theme, it is clearly influenced by such novels. It is in my opinion “problematic” because it is anti magic and uses psionics & WotC has made every class basically have magic and the few classes with psionics are totally done differently. So they would have to rework classes for the product. They imply it’s for other reasons but anyone into it knows it’s that desperate world of messed up societies which PCs might or might not be able to change.
Good point on the psionics. I kind of forgot about that. That was kind of a big part of the background. I will have to take a look at how psionics work in 5e, but I am going to guess it would not fit as well.
@@ImmortalsInc They made a couple classes, pretty uniform and that’s it… so you won’t get the tag on modularity you really need, then they have over magiced 5E. Can it be converted? Yes, but it will take love and more uniqueness than WotC is probably willing to do.
Anyone who uses words like "Problematic" when they are talking about gaming, need to be avoided at all costs.
Some puzzle with mathematics In d&d game are problematic.
Amen.
Said the InCel
I mean, if they're talking about fatal, I'll make an exception.
@@john-lenin go post about the current thing, you don’t have friends here.
It is problematic from a design perspective. 5E is a casual game designed to make every round feel heroic. Darksun wanted you to feel oppressed for a few levels despite being much stronger than a typical D&D character. Another thing is that so much would have to be changed in the base game too work for Darksun, most classes are casters and the isn't much design space to make psionics a thing this late in the life of the game.
The settings books for 5E are dandified adventures with a few pages for settings. It is probably best to just play Dark Sun in 2nd or 4th editions.
I am starting to see that the mechanics could also be a problem with 5e from all the other comments. If the problem is the cost of coming up with a whole new system I can agree with that.
Wizards of the Coast is located in woke USA and in their eco-centric bubble they believe that the majority of all D&D players are equally woke. The heroic themes are; Inclusion, the environment and censorship of anyone who doesn't agree with them. Having a world with slaves and environmental disaster will trigger some of the snow flakes who play D&D. Personally I don't care who plays D&D, what their world view is or how they like to play the game, I just wish we can have an official game world that is gritter than the fluff we normally see. If it triggers some people they don't have to play it. Fortunately there are some good 3rd party campaign settings that have a gritty feel.
Why not just make the world you want to play in more gritty? If you and your players want it that way then make it that way.
Everything I don't like is woke. Red traffic lights are woke.
I mean...maybe?
The idea that there shouldn't be a dark sun publication for 5e because the content is "problematic" is so insane to me. Like yeah... everything is problematic that's why I'm the hero...to solve the problem. Slavery is bad, let's free them!
Thank you!...lol.
I wouldn't mind a dark sun game myself. In fact I also wouldn't mind seeing a greyhawk sourcebook or a dragonlance sourcebook(instead of the small campaign book that came out) but back on Dark Sun. Even though I would like to see a Dark Sun 5e, I am aware of some players in one of my groups who consist of people who only know and played 5e that also show interest in Dark Sun also seem to to sound like they would "nerf" the world. Like they talk on how they would like the idea of playing in this bleak world, but also seem to be going in it acting like they are playing overpowered Mary Sues, and if I tell them that Dark Sun deals with having to snuggle with a dying world and trying to survive they either glare at me or then bring the idea on being murder hobos and go off killing everyone.
Dark Sun is not a world for everyone, but those that loved it are hardcore about it.
@@ImmortalsInc That is true. Was just that they say they want to go in it because it is "harsh and cruel" but are also seem to be wanting to do it like a cartoon to where they are gods in this harsh world and, again, not realizing how hardcore it is.
I've loved Dark Sun since it first came out. I used AD&D2e and then a C&C conversion about a decade ago and it was great. But I wish Whalers of the Coast would just sell the IP if they won't use it to another system. D100 type like OpenQuest or Savage Worlds would be perfect if officially set in (though Savage Worlds had Dragon Kings setting which was a copy of DS).
In the end, just stick w/the pre-novel Tyr.
That is another idea that might be good.
In the beginning of the game I think you belong to King Tectuktitlay of Draj. The reason they let you edit stats pre-game is so you can transfer existing characters to the game, like from a tabletop D&D game.
That brings back memories...I think you are right. It was also a hard world to survive. 1st levels characters barely got out of the starting gate.
@@ImmortalsIncIt was the first D&D game I really liked better than Ultima (not a D&D game but it was my standards bar). It had everything... music, decent graphics, huge world, an actual story that didn't suck... SSI was awesome.
As many people have already mentioned the "problematic," content is actually handled really well in Dark Sun. You are literally fighting to restore a corrupt world that has been literally defiled by evil wizards. It's a fantastic setting and I wish they would bring it back..
You are preaching to the choir. Your rise to be the great hero of the land is actually filled with real challenges. Starting out at the bottom and making it to top is rewarding in this type of setting. Not everyone is going to make it.
As long as you don't become stew for the halflings consider yourself ahead of the game.
You need to face the bad stuff, slavery, racial hate, evil in power, to know what a hero looks like. They need to fight evil to truly be good. Leave dark sun as is.
Cheers!
It's amazing that things like dark sun, oriental adventures, etc is considered problematic....and yet the very some groups of people probably devour books and shows such as game of thrones(disclaimer: the early seasons) with relish at their grimness and " realism".
Thank you! Lol...
I dont get it, whats the controversy ? :)
Love Dark sun by the way.
That is what I said!...lol.
@@ImmortalsInc no but I mean whats the subject of the controversy ? Haha
That WotC doesn't want to revist the setting because it finds it "problematic" isn't such a terrible thing based on the last nearly 20 years of D&D setting rewrites. I mean they have destroyed every setting TSR created, real trash tier souless garbage that invokes none of the feelings I remember having the first time I opened up a Greyhawk, original Forgotten Realms book so why should we trust WotC after the garbage fire that was Dark Sun 4th edition. WotC has never added anything of value to the D&D line, only watering down the settings more and more with each revision. Original Dark Sun is easily ported to and runs perfectly well with many OSR games like Old School Essentials Advanced edition.. WotC products are completely unneeded. There's enough material for DS out and easily and cheaply available on POD and PDF to run a game forever if you so desire.
I'm almost done re writing dark sun for 5e so I can introduce my party to the wonderfully reflavored dark sun world known as kalm.
Nice. Dark Sun will always have a special place in gaming for me. It was the first box set I purchased when I got out of the service and was happy to enjoy the setting with some new gaming friends. Hopefully your players have the same experience with you.
better no dark sun than a wokewashed version of dark sun
We'll just enjoy what we have until we can see something that is written properly.
The problem isn't the settings it's the a-holes that like to glorify the problematic aspects of the settings but it hasn't stopped them from printing Strahd the number one great written villain that horrible people give D&D a bad name by glorifying nor should they because the game's about freedom and people just shouldn't play with those a-holes and they they should BRING BACK DARKSUN!
I'd love to see Dark Sun make a return. Though with the themes of slaves, eugenics, and cannibalism it would have a very hard time on twitter. Large companies put a lot of resources into their online presence and take the loud voices there seriously. Not sure wotc could weather such a storm after recent events. That stuff besides the mechanical challenges, which I don't think the current wotc is up to. Hopefully 3d party developers find the audience to warrant a box set type release. I would trust them more to do it right anyway.
The more comments we get the more I see where this could be many layered problem for them. 3rd party might be the way to go on this.
Why would you want WotC to weather the storm? TSR printed the first set of rules in 1974. There's been five and a half editions plus Basic D&D in the intervening forty nine years. They could never print another rule book, setting, module, etc, and it wouldn't matter at all. How many editions of the same thing do we need? How many watered down, soulless reprints of the classics are required?
Fuck WotC.
They can keep their Woke garbage. I've been playing this game since I was 10, back in 1983. Yeah, im fucking old as dirt. I remember when D&D was a popular fad, until the Satanic Panic, Phil Donahue, Mazes and Monsters, and all that BS. Then came the Dark Years of D&D. Myself and the other guardians of the flame stayed with the game for the 30+ years that D&D was not cool. Not cool to the point of being social suicide if you admitted to most people that you played the game.
Recently I watched a movie on the art of Dungeons and Dragons. Some chick said something along the lines of the game needing to be "rescued from white guys in their Mother's basement" or some such tripe. Apparently WotC agrees with her statement, it wasn't edited out.
So yeah, this white guy who loves the game can't wait til WotC completely destroys itself, the fair weather players flee, and the game once again becomes the antithesis of cool. Then those of us who truly love it can go back to rolling dice in the shadows.
Thus endeth my rant
But really, to the Hellfires with WotC
Like Gary Gygax himself once said, "The Dirty little secret of D&D is, you don't need any rulebooks to play the game" or something to that effect.
And he's right. All you need is pencil, paper, dice, consistent rulings, and imagination.
Plus two to four friends. In person, sitting around a table.
Ok, now I'm done
This video makes me want to buy dark sun.
Screw wotc and their woke bs.
Buy it to enjoy a good setting and story!
I think I would have loved gaming with this host. He has my same feelings about character development.
I loved this setting. Every creature having psionics was a different and big part of it. I think it struggled in identity. Many of the familiar races and classes were gone or changed. The creatures were mostly all new rather than from traditional AD&D. Putting a couple of novels or comics out ahead of the release would have helped with enthusiasm and acceptance. It was pretty much desert. That made it nearly impossible to create some types of scenarios. I don't think there was metal in Athas either, so weapons and armor and money were way different. It was really foreign to regular players.
Thanks! Numbers can build a character over time and make great stories and games. I totally forgot a lack of metal in the game! I remember introducing a metal sword in game and all Hell broke loose. I didn't think it was a big deal, but the players really played it up as a sacred item willing to maintain possession at almost any cost.
Words are problematic. If you control words you control people.
I will not disagree.
Just got with several of the supplements I will run it through ShadowDark or with the newly released Wight-Box :-)
All the adventures that I remember were well written. Probably a good fit for Shadow Dark.
@@ImmortalsInc Wuw!! but one day already doing to much and not enough time ha thanks again :-)
This is the problem with so many things these days: everything gets watered down (or shelved outright) to cater to the most hypersensitive person imaginable. If you don't like Dark Sun's themes, then don't buy it or buy it and change them. I'm tired of us all being expected to tiptoe through life because some emotionally frail person somewhere MAY be offended by something.
Yeah, exactly. If people find something so "problematic" that they don't want to engage with it, then they should just NOT ENGAGE WITH IT. It's that simple lol
@@Arthas30000 Yeah, but attention is addicting, and we all know that babies get attention by crying and howling about whatever they are upset by in the moment.
@@nathanmorgan3647 Legit 😂
Plenty of alternative to D&D exist if you are not a fan of WOTC. One could also modify any of the worlds out there to reflect the tastes of the DM and the players. Corporations are going to act like corporations however we all can play the game as we see fit.
Well said.
You failed to mention any reason why it could be considered problematic and any argument against it. This video feels like just groaning while adding nothing to any meaningful conversation. I dont know the setting and now I just know you are personally nostalgic about it, not a very interesting video.
You are correct. It seems from the comments why the main reason people think it is problematic, which maybe the reason, but I am also seeing others. The use of psionics and changes to the spellcasting. The poor financial showings from the first print. The environmental concerns and lack of moral compass that the setting can inspire and, of course, the large part that slavery played in the setting.
I am personally nostalgic about it. It means something to me and hated to have someone call it a problem and let a good setting or story not get enjoyed. Most of our videos are pretty straight forward about a game with an occasion foray into opinions. We are working on it and your comment will help us improve. I truly mean that as we want to succeed and do better.
If you have never entered the setting I would suggest grabbing one of the novels by Troy Denning. He does an excellent job getting you involved in the world and would help you way better then I could in knowing all about it.
I think there are two main arguments to the setting being problematic.
One is kinda valid, the sterotyping of races. WotC is stearing away from beings born evil, lineage is the hereditary but a lot of stuff is upbringing and culture. But simply move these elements, aka subrace, into background.
To counter, almost everyone is shifted to evil or at least selfishness. Just to survive. So no evil races at all. While law and tyranny go hand in hand, so does freedom and crime. Personally I like a grey moral area and difficult choices for players.
The other is slavery, and for any fantasy setting that should imo be the default. Most settings are far worse. Not only are almost all people powerless peasants, they are assumed to be 0 level npc's that never can amount to anything. In any medieval society you have a handfull of nobles, a small caste of free citizens like guildsmen and officers but most people are like slaves. Children are literally the property of their parents, and sadly often women are too.
Dark Sun is a tough world, but is fully gender equal and anyone can rise up to become anything. Maybe slavery is more in-your-face, but I think it's less problematic than having all the misery and just ignoring its existence.
Btw, in my campaign lineage wasn't even fixed, elemental priest can transform themselves slowly into one of the four genie types, turning into a bloodline, halfbreed or eventually full genie. Mystics, a mix of monk and psion can also metamorphose into an outsider. If mixed with druid they can become pyreen, a shapeshifting psion that collects traits from all species. Mages (mixing wizard and sorceror freely) can start their dragon metamorphosis like the sorceror-monarchs or become a mysterious avengion.
I love these epic elements, and prefer a gradually accumulation of these benefits instead after a silly amounts of levels. So I made a complete overhaul based on multiclassing. Half your levels are your main class, the rest a mix of secondary classes, psion and the mystic, which contains the "racial" supernatural passive abilities, similar to monks and druids have and anything 3E would have ECL for.
Like I get why you have feelings for this setting, but maybe you should explain what the controversy is instead skirting around it the entire video before begging for a subscription.
I think other people have said plenty about the controversy so I was leaving that for them. I just wanted to let people know to get out and look at the setting. I appreciate the comment and will use it to improve as we go forward and venture more into opinion and timely material.
I'm sure dark sun isn't the problem as much as d&d trying to position itself as a mainstream product.
I am starting to see why people want WOTC to leave the product alone.
I think, if the official channel doesn't want to make the thing you like? You should just make it yourself. Or just go pirate it.
They don't want to make the money? Then don't give money to them.
The more I see the comments the more I think a 3rd party solution would be the way to go.
I hate today’s current mindset of everything must be for everyone. Really ruins stuff, you can’t handle a dark grim setting well then go find something else. Just because you see something you don’t like doesn’t mean you have to get rid of it because remember other people live in this planet too you ain’t the main character.
If you don't like something don't play it. Stop ruining other people's enjoyment.
Hasbro is too big and their shareholders can't deal with anything spicier than oatmeal. It's not about "Good" it's about "Safe".
Yeah, I cannot disagree with you. Eventually they will need to make good stuff again so it sells to please them.
In the early days of DND, the game in general was considered problematic (Evil) to many because of the presence of demons and magic. Now by the same logic Dark Sun is problematic because of the existence of slavery and racism. These games were never praising or exalting bad things, but had your characters rise up to fight against wickedness and tyranny, whether for the greater good or just simply survival.
Excellent comment. I feel the same way. It's hard to fight evil and be a good character when evil is not a challenge.
Get a grip: the problem with Dark Sun is not that it deals with slavery, racism and sexism but that it creates a world where playing into slavery, racism and sexism are incentivized. It's completely normal for players to own women, slaves and torture NPCs in Dark Sun because that's how that world works, and that makes it very problematic considering racism, sexism and slavery and not just fantasy but actual dangers in our society.
Aren't most things in fantasy actual dangers in society? At least in one form or another. I am also not sure what version you are reading, but as players characters none of those things should be incentivized. Unless of course you are playing an evil character which kind of goes against the whole point of the game.
@@ImmortalsInc maybe you missed the point: in Dark Sun you're not the hero, freeing slaves and emancipating women. You're just a dude trying to survive and battling evil sorcerers.
The setting doesn't deal with problematic themes in a meaningful way for players to develop their own critique about them, they are just presented as part of the "natural" way Dark Sun works.
They could just reflavor it a bit. Instead of slaves the players would be wage slaves. Instead of being subjected to the evil tyranny of dragons, they would have to fight the evil tyranny of capitalism. It would sell loke hotcakes in todays market lol
Your not wrong...but it just wouldn't be the same.
What do you mean when you say "problematic"? Does this book contain woke things? Does it spew hate against normal family units? Is it inherently Christophobic?
Remember, the majority of the world thinks radically different than secular californians and it makes no sense to use their language.
I am not sure where you were going with that, but this game supplement would be considered anything but 'woke'. Pretty 'anti-woke' if you ask me. Nothing about family units specifically unless you count the noble and trade houses that are a major part of the world. Christianity really isn't mentioned at any point that I remember. There is a lot of religious mentions or character classes of a large variety.
I would agree that certain parts of this Country have their own language, at a least a variation of English. Other then that I am unsure where you were going with that last sentence either.
@@ImmortalsInc i gues we have the same angle.
My point is the language is loaded one way and we ought to reload it our way.
Lmao, they cannot touch our table of grognards. Athas is too inhospitable, wokeness cannot survive the light of the Dark Sun.
I mean...you are probably right.
Of course the setting about environmentalism and a critique of the worse excess of capitalism in fantasy form would be seen as problematic. :/ People are so stupid.
Now that you put it that way....I might agree...lol.
I think an adaptation of Dark Sun that softens the expression but in no way alters the core of the misery of society is entirely possible. If the word "slavery" is so offensive. (Which it isn't of course. Most slavery in human history was not race-based and most slaves' lives were much more miserable than those of the Blacks in America.) The themes of environmental preservation and a corrupt oligarchic society are also excellent starting points for creating the world.
Bad take
Wizards is junk anyway. It's better that they stay away from the setting.
Maybe it is better if they leave it for another time.
Great Game System. It was Kenshi the Table top RPG.
Serious people, and it was Gorkamorka before Gorkamorka. These sucky Wizards of the Woke are just dumb. These are the parasites we were warned about that when you open up your hobby to EVERYONE, they come in and take over and destroy it from the inside.
Played a Maul for a few levels. The game was tough. You end up wanting to kill your magic users, because they start hurting everyone. Mauls were your Conan/ Thundarr type players.
I do remember a few sessions where we had to deal with some magic-users. But then that is where good role-playing came into the picture. Great story telling as you resolve disputes within the party and the moral implications of what you are doing.