Air testing the primary side of the heating /hot water is a great way to check a system prior to filling. But don't do what I did many many years ago. I decided to test the DHW pipework with air before filling up. It was a huge six bedroom detached house we had just built, and because of the amount of pipework involved, decided to use a compressor to fill it. The pressure gauge wasn't budging, so I went and made a cup of tea, leaving the compressor running. I was sat down enjoying my tea, getting stuck into the Roger Bisby column in 'Professional Builder' magazine, when it dawned on me I'd left the compressor running. Went upstairs, turned it off with gauge sitting at eight bar, phew, no harm done. Couple of hours later, opened the airing cupboard door, and there was the brand new 210 litre cylinder, mangled beyond recognition, literally grown six inches in height, destroyed! The pipework could take that pressure no problem , but open vented copper cylinders definitely cannot.
It's not just me then; I installed a new vented indirect cylinder, read all the specs, took note of the max operating pressure well within the scope of the siting, but how to test the installation? I know! fill the tank, close the header feed close the drain cross-feed make sure the hot taps are closed, cap the vent at the header tank, disconnect the hot water tap in the kitchen, cross-feed the main supply into the hot water circuit, go upstairs, get the wife to turn on the mains stop and check for leaks. My head must have been some where else that day, first indication, a slight, puzzling, cracking sound as the insulation separated, then a couple of melodic bongs accompanied by weeping at the vent and by the time I realised my gross error, shouted to the missus to turn off the stop there was a definitely UN-melodic final donnnggg; same capacity, same growth spurt, just with the addition of 210 litres of cold water, which thankfully remained in the cylinder. Specs rated a 33 foot head; my head unaccountably (ex scuba diver ) interpreted this as 33 bar, nowhere near mains pressure, right? The fact that the cylinder remained intact after taking six plus times it's rated pressure impresses me no-end.
So much of this hassle would be saved if houses had some kind of service booklet. You could record anything in it, paint colours, pics of pipe runs, guarantees, boiler certs - everything.
I've just started doing exactly that for my own property. RAL colours for front door, paint used in each room, and I've just finished sketching out the plumbing route of all my pipework (having had to replace a load of corroded gate valves coming from the three header tanks in our loft). Having that service booklet from scratch in every house would be so helpful for everyone.
The way Rodger spoke to this guy is brilliant. Tactful and understanding. As for the house and the problems I would’ve been taking the floor up well before it happened here. £500 a time for leak detection in comparison to a days labour just taking the floor up in places to investigate which you’re going to have to do anyway just seems to make sense. I guess people don’t like having their floor taken up but if you can’t see any evidence of damp it must be below ground. I do like the solution in the end though, not something I would’ve thought of as a home owner.
Yes you sometimes just have to rip the plaster off as it were otherwise you can be faffing around for so long and as Rodger says get rid of all those points of failure, the joints, and bring all the pipework to the surface particularly if you are using any form of underfloor heating otherwise its just asking for problems
first of all i as a timed served plumber of 50 years would never put a push fit fitting anywhere that has not got a view and never in concrete even soldered copper joints in concrete should be covered and finally underfloor heating pipes should be ok to be buried in concrete if they are specified for that job to be laid in a continuous loop without any joints terminated ends above any floor and pressure tested to the maximum bar pressure specified by the pipe manufacturer before any floors concrete or otherwise are laid
Thank you for the excellent video Charles. I work within the insurance and leak detection industry and have dealt with many issues similar to yours where numerous so called ‘experts’ and experienced people have been unable to resolve issues such as the ones you’re describing. Starting from the top I will try to explain my thoughts. 1. The issue with the pressure drop which has been resolved and was found to be the heat exchanger is more common than anyone would have you believe. I have carried out 1000s of leak detection surveys and have found this to be the issue on numerous occasions using pressure testing and isolating various areas of the central heating to narrow down the leak area before using a hydrogen/nitrogen tracer gas to accurately determine the location of the leak. 2. The second leak under the carpet and below the screed level under the boiler I’m assuming was on a cold water pipe and had been going for some time (you say weeks or months) this will have unfortunately caused the insulation layer of the floating floor (floating floor: a floor construction which commonly consists of a cement base, insulation and a cement screed on top in which underfloor heating pipes are laid) and any layers below this to now be wet and this is why you’re seeing water damage in the bottoms of the structural walls and chimney breast as these go down below the level of the top screed and down to the base layer of the floating floors. The floating floors can be dried using a method called pressure drying however this would require the removal or partial removal of the wooden flooring so that the underfloor heating can be traced using a thermal camera, holes can be drilled into the floor and dry air introduced to dry the floor construction. The alternative to this would be removal of the wood flooring, screed, underfloor heating, insulation down to the concrete base where drying to the base would still be required. 3. For the third issue on the second boiler I would recommend that a leak detection survey is carried out stating with systematic pressure testing and followed by narrowing the area down further with acoustic testing and tracer gas testing given the size of the leak/pressure drop. The leak detection company seem to have found one small leak but have not determined whether a second leak is present. Regarding the radiator as an estimate you’re probably loosing a few litres of water when it goes from 2 bar to 0 bar and if this were coming from the radiator you would physically see it coming out; the leak detection engineer should know this. It’s also quantifiable as you can easily fill the system to 2 bar and drain off water into a bucket until you reach 0 bar to determine how much water is being lost each time. If the radiator was leaking that badly the wooden flooring below would have cupped and have been badly water stained by now which it doesn’t appear to have done. The reason they haven’t looked for a further issue is because they charge per successful visit and don’t get paid more for finding a second leak. Do you have trace and access insurance on your household insurance policy? Ask them to appoint a company that will not only find the leaks but also pressure test the system following repairing or temporarily repairing any leaks that have been found. I have picked up the pieces from numerous leak detection companies who have done similar and failed to get resolve the issues 4. Given the age of the original property you’re likely to have suspended floors in the original areas of the property. Suspended floors usually consisted of wooden joists fixed into the internal bricks of the cavity walls and above the level of the damp proof course. The joists would usually have been covered with floorboards and then all of the plumbing to the radiators routed in the void below the floor. Underneath the floor would usually be earth and if you had a leak it would be unnoticeable due to the fact that the water would soak away into the earth below. The presence of a suspended floor can usually be confirmed by looking around the outside of the property and finding air bricks placed usually front and back in the bottoms of the external walls, however these are often covered up or blocked when bad renovations are carried out or poor due to poor maintenance. 5. The old area of the property should have air bricks if it has a suspended floor. Without air bricks you run the risk of elevated moisture levels accumulating in the air under the floor when the temperature rises and then during colder periods this can then cause condensation or cause the joists to rot as a relative humidity above 60% for a prolonged period increases the chance of mould growth which could then rot out the timbers that the floor is constructed from. 6. The gas will eventually come up through the wood (the gas that is being detected is Hydrogen which is the smallest molecule and is only really stopped by materials such as plastic and certain types of tile) they are right that it will make locating the leak more challenging, but it should still be possible to determine if the issue is under the bedroom floor or not.
Glad he got sorted. Why do people continue to want fancy bathrooms and kitchens BEFORE they sort out the plumbing? Usual answer I get is I wouldn’t have been able to afford the bathroom if I’d had to sort the pipework first. Bugs me.
Yes it's always always the way mate. Move into a house, redecorate and fit new carpets or even worse laminate flooring, and then, and only then, decide they need a complete rewire/heating system/two storey extension. 🙄
We made this mistake. To be fair, most of the issues were found after we'd already committed to the spend and in our case, didn't look too bad at first investigations
I would clear the gravel at the bottom of the outside wall and see if there are any air bricks hidden. If there are, is there any water coming through...or perfume if you put it in the system? If they do put gas in the system, see if any gas is coming outside through the gravel. I would also do a plan showing which boiler fed which rooms of the house. Turn one on and see what gets warm. Also see if there is any condensation on any of the windows/metalwork in any of the rooms. Then get a diagram up and running of the pipework and radiators.
I ain't no plumber (!) but key evidence for the pressure loss issue seems that there's obviously a leak, current or past, at 3:39 and it appears to be on the edge of one of the underfloor heating areas. There must be gallons of water coming out a day (or even in the space of a few minutes) and it's going somewhere, obeying gravity and going downwards out of sight. The slightly dodgy underfloor heating pipes are a bit of a red flag. I'd isolate each area I could and pressure test it all. I have a hunch a floor is going to have to come up to repair/relay underfloor heating pipes. Could even be a nail or screw puncturing one of the underfloor pipes but it would have to be significantly damaged to cause such a volume of water to escape so quickly. More likely a failed joint?
Fracture in the water jacket inside the boiler? Opens up when boiler cools down, closes itself up when boiler on. Puddle of water in the combustion chamber which boils off up the flue each time it fires. Just a thought, and simple to check - pull out the burner. Edit: I made the above comment at 41 mins into the video, and have now just watched the ending. Reminded me of a job i did many years ago. Similar problem that only became apparent when i fitted a new system boiler. Obviously header tank no longer required. Losing pressure as soon as commissioned. Thought it may have been the coil in the cylinder . Customer informed me they no longer heard a dribbling from the loft at night time. Thought - leak that was being replenished constantly by former header tank. Realised it must be underfloor pipe, somewhere. All concrete floors downstairs. Guessed where the runs might be to each rad and lifted the carpet. Used a large wooden handled screwdriver pressed to my ear, with the blade on the floor (a technique i used to use to check pumps were working and their speeds). Checking every few inches, on my knees, customer watching, thinking I'm a plonker. Then i heard it. About 2 feet from the outside corner of the living room. Started chipping ing away at the concrete and found the leak on an elbow upturn. Concrete laid straight onto bare copper! Left it a few days to dry out before reconcreting over new sleeved plastic pipe. The inner leaf of brickwork, right in the corner, had fallen away for about three courses. Customer took me outside to show me where he'd been patching the outside corner rendering for years! Must have spent a lot of wasted money on their water bills! Happy days. And believe it or not, the customers were Mr and Mrs Day! I swear that is true.
John, out of interest - why did you join it with plastic? Assuming it wasn't left accessible ;-). I've never understood why people wouldn’t copper pipe (and sleeve) it...given that you were going to reconcrete it - hoping to be enlightened!
Not at the end yet, unlikely to be the heat exchanger as looks like it's not condensing so would have water dripping from the boiler. As said could be the coil on the cylinder if a vented cylinder?
Finally traced a water issue - little pond under the bath - in a basement bathroom. The original water pipes had been installed in a new concrete floor about 30 years previously when the property was renovated. Took three plumbers, I finally persuaded one to pressure test the hot and cold pipework. It turned out the old buried copper pipe (lagged when buried) had finally given way on the hot side (heat being the catalyst) and I'm assuming the client's cold will go eventually too. To save a big excavation - and a new floor - another plumber simply bypassed the hot supply on the surface. I hate the practice of burying pipes - and other elements - without feasible access. You wouldn't buy a car with the bonnet welded shut in the factory...
We never bury push fit joints in concrete, been called to too many leaks where expansion and contraction has caused the joint to go in the concrete. I'd be willing to go have a look but it's a bit far out of Sussex/Surrey. Couple of worrying things with this build; the people you had work on it not great but bad relationships aren't always a signature of bad workmanship. However it's losing water in a suspended floor with no known ventilation under a plywood sub-floor. That's possibly the most worrying as rot can set in and destroy the floor in a very short amount of time in that situation and it won't always show up on your finished floor above. This honestly needs testing circuit by circuit if possible but it's unlikely as it's bodge onto bodge. Edit: I'd advise Charles to look up his house on Rightmove history/old Google Earth pictures etc and see if their are air bricks visible on old photos and where they were. It's free and for a couple hours searching online it can give you a really good base for knowing what has been done and changed on a property and how they might have gone about certain additions. Also, central air and AC is just a more efficient and less costly setup, sadly we're one of the few developed countries in the world that doesn't regularly use it.
basic fault detection isn't it. Isolate and test. Takes time though as you may need to cut pipes add fittings to separate circuits but just starting with entire flow + return is a start and work from there..
Yep I agree…. It pays to pressure test .. I just have a small air compressor that blows of at 3 bar with a 5 bar gauge, so you can see the pressure drop off quickly..I am old school, it’s copper all the time…not into plastic..
@@TheBrick2 I wonder if anyone has developed an externally mounted sensor that could clip around a pipe and measure flow rate? If you could measure all the inlets and outlets, whichever circuit didn’t have equal in & out flow would be the target for more destructive testing….
Will start off by saying that I am anything but a pro but how about drilling some small holes in inconspicuous areas and putting a camera or even just a wooden stick down to dip test under the wooden floor, easy to fill and make good or if the floor then has to come up you can replace the boards? Sorry in advance if this is a stupid idea!
Check your house insurance, the search and find aspect of the works are generally covered. The fix is not covered. All the multi occupant buildings we work on are covered for search and find. Love the detective work Roger, more like this, it was a real treat, thank you.
So glad he got the problem fixed my heart goes out to him and his family as I've had bad experiences with some trades myself but think most of them saw the dodgy pipework and ran for the hills after taking call out charge - good on the guy who did the pressure test and found the air leaking 😊😊😊
Nice video, Roger. As a general builder, I guessed there was a leak as soon as he said he'd tested the chimney breast and damp was creeping up a metre. Such a shame that a beautiful house had basic issues that should have been sorted long before those finishes were installed. The plastic pipe is brilliant but Id avoid fittings in inexcessable places at all costs.
The moral is: if you have a significant leak, FFS use your ears **first**, before you spend precious time digging up floorboards, isolating off areas, compressing the system, trying to understand dog's dinner pipe runs or introducing perfume. Ears are free, handy and fairly reliable. I was lying in the bath late one night shortly after moving into a new house and heard the gravity feed cistern filling when no water should have been running. Why? I wondered. Why are we wasting water? A quick check showed no leaking tap or overflow. My ears had already told me the problem, so I followed their advice. I took a piece of flexible plastic pipe (a doctor's stethoscope would have been better) and went round listening to the radiators and pipework. I quickly found where the sound was loudest but there was no obvious problem -- until I took up a floorboard and was greeted by water spraying out from a pipe which had obviously been leaking for many years. The floorboard had been carefully nailed down through the pipe when the board was replaced over the new pipe work for the central heating system. Much water and heat had been turning the subfloor in to a tropical greenhouse over the years and we were lucky that the sodden floorboards and joists (invisible under carpet and lining) were not well rotten. They had clearly and fortunately been rot-proofed and all eventually dried out fine. Stethoscope: as important a piece of a plumber's toolkit as a doctor's. Mechanics know to use them.
If you do decide to put a fragrance into your heating system , please make sure its compatible with the materials of the heating system, specially the boiler, pumps, O-rings etc. For instance a presence of KCI & NaCI (Alkalis) will accelerate high temperature corrosion of Stainless Steel. I certainly wouldn't use any Chloride solutions or sodium chloride.
Good luck! I'm an electrical engineer, landlord and homeowner who does my own plumbing... since childhood when I learned it from my father. I'm also a seasoned troubleshooter... based in Southern California... so I'm not familiar with English heating systems. But my Dad was a steam fitting contractor and I recognize "wet heat" radiators, etc. No you wouldn't get water out of a leaky bleeder at the top of a radiator because of the location. "Location location location"applies to more than real estate TRANSACTIONS. ;) Pardon my attempts at humor. Getting back to the point of my entry into this fray: Since childhood, people tossed mysterious appliances and equipment at me, asking me to "FIX it." The #1 rule of hardware troubleshooting is that you need a COMPLETE WIRING DIAGRAM. In this case, a piping diagram. Complete means that all intra-conduit components are characterized. Your BIG PROBLEM is lack of information, and you are "swinging in the dark" at problems now that you have a wild, pissed-off tiger by the tail. The object is not only to quiet all such inconveniences, but to master the KNOWLEDGE PROBLEM. THEN, you can bring in specialists who charge £500/hr to give you specific answers to complex questions. So hire an engineer who likes to dissect problems, and document his finding with excellent diagrams. Expect to pay 5 figures, in a mess like you have. PLAN B? You need a barrister.
A real shame whilst renovating (nicely), the house they didn't sort out the plumbing and wiring when they had all the floors up. Hopefully Charles doesn't have any more issues with that rats nest of pipework. Great video Roger.
Really shows the danger of focusing on the cosmetic side and ignoring the actual services and infrastructure of the house. So many people have built lovely bathrooms/kitchens on top of plumbing and wiring that's either badly done or past it's useful service life.
Not long into the vid as Charles was explaining all that had happened, I was starting to think it was something simple, because in my experience it usually is. I would have been isolating circuits and testing one by one, and labelling behind me as I worked. I have a very good label printer for less than £25, I label everything. This is the type of job I love, I relish being called in after many others have failed, it’s good to be tested. I don’t know how some people sleep at night charging £500/day and not even finding the problem, at that fee you’re setting yourself up as the expert so you’d better find it ( Good tip about the perfume. I’ve not heard of that one before) and if not at least offer a huge discount for a follow up. Your right about the quality of engineers these days, slap dash and not interested in doing anything difficult
@@martinranson4262 looseing almost a var an hour, but no sign of water, must be the bleed valve, scary how they tried to blame ot on this, just a bit of common sense needed.
51:03 for the answer, I only say this as it would seem (from the comments) not many have watched to the end, as they are still speculating what the root issue is!
So happy to hear another to say no push fit hidden, manifold with many pipes just don’t make sense unless one charges 3x for every fitting and wants dosh rather than a good job, even buying 90° braces can be difficult pvc bends so beautifully no 90° needed and a fluid flow to boot so much less resistance no brainier Roger your a gem 👍🏽nice stance you take humble admiration. I helped a plumber friend in the states where plumbing is inspected even having to use a purple primer on solvent weld on waste which is swimming pool quality 3-4 mm wall thickness on 1 ½ no purple visible take that section out and redo, i learned some of my plumbing from a German guy with welded poly just like they do the underground yellow gas i’m surprised we don’t do that here too several makes cuprax italia and the German green can’t remember the name but what a system, thanks again for the video Roger. Perhaps just pressure up between rads.
Great video, that's standard practice here in Australia, they use a listening device to locate the position of the noise, if the leaks too small they pump up the lines with air and it makes the location more obvious, they can normally pin point the area down to around 300mm by 300mm square, all the best mate
I hope you guys found a solution to your problem by now! I agree with Roger the problem is likely under the slab. First thing I would do is set the boiler good and hot and turn on all the heating, then I'd use a thermal imaging camera to identify where all the lines are running, and take pictures using the camera so I know what is happening under the floor. If the leak is bad enough you may see a strange heat spot where the leak is happening. Next I would install shut off valves on each of the zones supply and returns. This will allow you to isolate each heating loop one at a time and determine which zone is losing pressure. Once you determine which zone is losing the pressure you can refer to the images you took with the thermal imaging camera to see what the associated piping in that loop does. The leak is likely happening at a fitting under the slab, they should be visible as tight bends or tees in the images. This should bring you much closer to a solution to your problem. Good luck with this! I would look to have a long term goal of consolidating all heating to one heat source. A good conveniently located boiler. I would then determine how to chase insulated mains from the boiler's location to feed the lines from the eliminated second boiler. Best of luck from Vancouver, Canada.
Excellent strategy. Another consideration is, if the boiler leak is under the slab, it is probably undermining the ground around it. This could eventually trigger a collapse of the slab.
I guess adding bad plumbing onto bad plumbing will result in long term problems. Such a bad situation he was in . As a retired heating engineer I personally would have Isolated the boilers and put them under test for pressure loss. Same on the underfloor heating. I am pleased to hear the customer got it all sorted. The fact that there was no leaking water seen above kind of leads us to say the problem was under the floor so why wasnt the uf circuits tested for pressure loss, worrying that so many engineers overlooked this. I would have quoted for the time it would take to do the job, nothing is free except a bit of friendly advice.
Love your sincere interest in people, problems, tyrants and resolve... Thank you for your educating work that helps many of us with some 'tool' ability, but not always the correct knowledge. Super guy 👍
cudos Roger... honestly, I was totally frustrated with his take from the minute he spoke. You handled it brilliantly. And, the 2nd leak company.. brilliant❤ Your input is awesome, Roger. And Dillan did perfect moderating😎
Very good video Roger, felt sorry for Charles paying out all that money, as you say recommendations worth their weight in gold. Glad he got it sorted though. I'm an electrician, semi retired in Portugal now, but my last job in the UK the owner of a flat asked me to replace the old lead cold and hot water system. It was a pretty simple job as some pipework had been replaced by copper already. However I did mark all the exposed pipework in the boiler cupboard and screwed a laminated map of where all the pipework ran. Same as I did for my electrical work, it just makes it so easy for anyone else comin later on to either extend the system or fix a leak etc.
I remember having to repair a big mains leak. Not showing anywhere. Turns out anglian picked up on it from the meter which they mislabelled and piped up to next doors the wrong way. The leak was from a pin hole in copper under the damp proof membrane. The leak detection services in this video don't sound too good tbh.
Excellent presentation. I agree entirely that the compressed air is a far better way of finding what was a fairly major leak. One issue is that sealing everything away with sealed floors and concrete etc makes life very hard to find these sorts of problems. Easy access being possibly less attractive but more practical.
I had a leak in my Central Heating system. Having checked all the radiators using tissue paper wrapped around the valve joints to see if they had been affected by water - None of them indicated a joint leak. No indication from any ceiling marks then led me to investigate under the ground floor rooms. Luckily for me I was able to peal back the carpet in the ground floor rooms and look for a leak(s). Given previous work plumbing/electric work had meant that there were easy sections of floorboards that could be unscrewed. I was able to use a £18 3mtr Boroscope attached to my laptop to look for a leak. It wasn't long before I found that a 15mm pipe had not been given enough clearance against a corner brick and with the constant expansion and contraction of the copper pipe - had worn away part of it to create a pin hole. If the plumber had only given the pipe another 10mm of clearance the original pipe all would still be OK today. I managed to cut out the damaged pipe and fit a new 1 mtr section to stay clear of the brick corner. Total cost of parts - around £15 (early 2017). I also sleeved the pipe with 20mm plastic pipe where it had to go through a gap in the under floor brickwork where the floor joists where supported (another section was sitting on top of a brick where it went from one room to another). Also used the opportunity to fill some insulation over the 15mm pipe work to ensure that more heat go to the radiators. Quite satisfying to be able to do the repair myself - not being a plumber. Use compression fittings rather than soldered joints. Have now over two years replaced all my 30 year old radiators with Myson Premier Compact ones all with slightly more BTU than the previous ones. All now have Drayton TRV4's attached so they can be turned down if necc. 10 Rads cost me a total of £1200. Looking at the price of the Rads now - they are all nearly twice what I paid in 2017/18. I do feel sorry for those that have no practical ability to do some of their own "DIY" work and have to totally relay on the ability of others to sort things out. I even fitted the Geberit Toilet and Basin frames (both Villeroy & Boch off floor mounted) for my bathroom refub back in 2013 as the plumber/tiler that I had to do the work had no idea what they were. They also said they had never seen a shower install that had a separate diverted valve to allow for a wall outlet for a flexi hose as well as an overhead shower head. To be fair it had taken me 5 years of design and planning and acquiring all the necessary fitments before work started on the Bathroom. 9 years on and it still looks like it was done yesterday. I have nearly 100 pics from the way it was before any work started to every stage of the refurb so the joists and pipe runs can easily be seen. From working on Cars - one thing I've learned is that you take pictures - and lots of them so you know what things look like during and after the event. Isolating valves fitted on all the service pipes. Nuff Said,
I watch Laura Kampf, on TH-cam, who's just bought an old house, she's a carpenter. Ripping the whole place out so not so bad but came in one morning to find pool of water in and outside the downstairs toilet. They pulled the wall part to find an old pipe with a tiny pin prick of a leak. Shows how much damage can be done from even a small pin prick in a pipe.
Looks a mess, but I doubt it needs a total overhaul. Needs a reasonable amount of time to go though and establish what's going on, and go from there. Customers rarely like paying for this (I can understand, it's days of effectively just looking at things) however, it may save on overhauling decorative finishes. A drawn up system layout would be hugely beneficial for future trades too. What I don't like is the two boiler arrangement, I would be upfront in recommending taking a F&R and a hot from the suprima boiler cupboard over to the combi. Lose the combi. Lose the complication of two separate systems that share spaces. The damp could be caused by other factors, but pressure dropping suggests a leak - as it sounds like the expansion vessel is still good. There are a plethora of ways to find a leak, and we've all got our favorites. I like using a compressor as it often gives you hissing noise or blows apart a failing joint - makes locating problem areas very easy.
As it is a S-plan type system i would isolate each zone and pressure test each zone to find where the drop lies, including the coil in the cylinder, going through it this way is the most cost effective way imo
I feel totally gutted for this chap, and for me the money spent there so far to sort this, it's just so sad,I cannot help wondering as somebody else has mentioned that it might be a combination of a pipe leak and groundwater because of the levels outside, also I feel those floors have to come up to be 100 percent certain of fixing the problem, i also feel this all needs starting again, one new boiler, and a completely new system from start to finish,i cannot help thinking unless you do this,the probs will just continue, forever, Throwing loads more cash at repairs and guess work is a nonsense.
let me add a 'Yes' to many of the comments below. Just to add that its people like Roger, and others like Robin Clevett, who give Builders a good name, both in terms of their knowledge, and intellect about how things work. Also, like Jon mentions below, the way these guys engage with people, and you can tell its not put on for the camera but sincere, is inspiring. Thanks Roger.
Watch till the end Re hot air heating , it was never popular in the UK almost all the new property's where it was fitted have over ther years had it removed. Yes wet heating can leak but , ducts need space (preferably inside), cause compartmentalisation issues (fire safety) can transmit noise , filters need changing frequently etc... but one possible advantage is the air movement they create means condensation issues are likely reduced .
Hi ya Pal .that was one extremely interesting video .... OMG that poor chap ... The fix .... That was nice ..Ear ear as they say .... lol ..please keep them coming .think I might be addicted now , up till 4:20am watching you .... THANKS
I’m a general builder rather than a plumber, and over 40 odd years I’ve come across similar situations. Generally I only work by recommendation, and that goes both ways. A good relationship with the customer, honest and communicative is essential. Using unknown builders of whatever nationality is a no no. Don’t be in a hurry to get the work done. The best people are worth waiting for and worth seeking out. Sometimes a good customer and a good tradesman don’t gel for whatever reason - move on ! Another point maybe that a foreign builder may be working on unfamiliar systems and regulations causing them to produce an unsatisfactory job. Suspended floors on timber joists should never be in ground contact, but up on Dpc on dwarf walls - air bricks essential. Never take external reader to the ground, it can lead to capillary damp up the wall - use a bell cast bead at the render base at least 150mm above ground. On the plumbing side, I’m just surprised that Charles didn’t rationalise the whole system to 1 boiler and mega flow etc for all the house, with continuous new pipe work under the floors and renew the manifolds, pumps and valves with a properly designed system for full peace of mind. Relative to the property prices in Datchet, the cost though significant would in the long run be beneficial. More efficient system cheaper to run, and should he wish to sell, a fully certificated system as a selling point.
Hi Roger a very interesting video, i'm a retired plumber (heating engineer of 45 years) when the second boiler came into the equation running the hot water system my thoughts were immediately drawn to the domestic hot water rather than the heating, so many tradesmen turn automatically to the new installations rather than looking at the basic pipework in plain view. Good to see it was resolved and what a price for a leaky bath tap pipe.
The house bashers in Scotland tend to do a cover up as the customers don’t want to spend money. It’s only when the floor rots out that you find the bodges. My own house has had a fire and it was just covered over in every room. Could never get rid of the burning smell …. All smoke damage was just clad over. Found some amazing bodges like a single 2.5 mm cable running an entire kitchen extension. Cable was red hot however it was lying in a damp clay basement and that was helping to keep it going…
Roger you are great , I feel a bit of confidence just watching this , you are old school I just love the fact you suggested using “ BRUT “ cologne as the smell . I bet you still use ‘enry’s ‘ ammer soap- on- a-rope , all the best Roger
Hopefully push fit connections under the floor are illegal in the UK as they are in other countries in Europe? A home inspection should also have marked this as an alarming fault before sale so you as a buyer would have a fighting change of getting the price reduced. If they are not able to inspect it because it's hidden the change of ownership insurance should cover the cost. The floor needs to come up and all the piping work needs to be replaced without any push fittings under the floor boards. Otherwise you will keep finding new problems for years to come
Hi Roger, this is such an interesting tale!, there is obviously a leak somewhere in the heating system, exactly where it is is obviously a mystery, sadly it could easily be buried under the floor somewhere and could well be some distance from where the wet is showing. I like the idea of using a smelly soluble compound in the system, I also like the way you work so hard to explore as many possibilities as you can think of and encourage the man to explore the place for you. The point that I would make is that regardless of exactly where the leak is a substantial length of defective pipe will have to be replaced and that will mean taking up quite a lot of the floor!, someone is going to have to open it all up and get at it!. Cheers, Richard.
I agree..... Most people buy a house, sugar coat it, then realise the plumbing and electrics are shot, and in need of upgrading. Bugs me too. Get the basics done: Plumbing, electrics, general building works. Then put your nice kitchen and bathroom in last.
Hi Roger during the Video I wanted to say just pressurise the system and listen for the air it works ….and then at the end that is exactly what they did. Customers don’t like it they just want it fixed but I totally agree a manifold bring all the pipes to valves good quality and neaten the job up. I am now semi retired at 69 I have had it with the poor workmanship out there. I am not saying pushfit don’t have a role but good old copper and compression joints on a manifold above the floor. I have a £12m house sold screeded floor with compression plastic fittings loosing pressure. The Customer only wants work done if I can guarantee success. During lockdown I let that job go leak after leak
Well done Roger for helping. One reasons trades are trouble free in North America is due to liability and legal system. In the UK you have to be rich to get justice. Trading Standards will laugh at you if you complain.
I would isolate the boiler ,and isolate each circuit and pressure test individual hopefully find the leak ,pressure testing is the only way you get this sorted
Great outcome. Hopefully the guy can enjoy his beautiful house now. Patients and using all the senses is the key. It's a shame that some of the commentators below aren't patient enough to listen to the end of the video!!
Watching and typing my assumptions/observations on the fly. 9:54 - my immediate interest would be the Danfoss valve that seems to lead nowhere, I have seen homes that had radiators removed but the pipes were just closed with the uninstalled valves and in this situation the pressure leak is just really quick so I would close the Danfoss valve completely and try to observe any change. Anyway, let's watch further 52:00 - *sigh* who in their right mind leaves a valve beneath the floor? It's basically the most probable point for a leak. I am happy to hear it's been sorted out. I, myself prefer tracking down the issue and solving it without hastily change/modify parts without proper diagnose. I had a customer that had an issue with an electric boiler/heating system that just randomly lost pressure and then shut itself off. He had a tennant in the apartment and during winter it was a big issue because she couldn't heat up the apartment or use hot water for a longer period of time without having issues. The owner requested a complete replacement of the system because he had multiple people come and look at it but to me it wasn't reasonable for a 3 year old system to behave that strangely because I pressure tested the pipes and there was no loss. After two short visits with some testing I ruled out every single option and I was left with a faulty pressure sensor inside the boiler. Ordered the part, replaced and saved the owner tons of money. That is a job well done in my book, not going after the priciest option at hand
In New Zealand it is illegal to have any joints within a concrete floor, all pipework is joined as a continuos length at the manifold... my heart goes out to this guy...the host I believe has nailed it that its a leaky press fit connection
Whenever I hear ‘character’ I hear money pit. Assuming he solves that one problem, he’ll soon be discovering more. Full strip out and a complete one design system is needed. Or years of headaches and passing tradesmen
It depends really. We bought a characterful cottage in Devon. It didn't involve a mortgage so I opted to forgo a survey because we considered them to be poor value for money in the past. I was satisfied with the likely overall condition of the property and so was my daughter-in-laws father who is quite handy. That said, there was (and is) no central heating, so in that regard comparatively little to go wrong. It has solid floors, a newish cylinder and wood burner and we installed new electric rads. The roof was also converted around twenty years ago so there shouldn't be much trouble there. We rated the kitchen and bathroom usable and we've been here for three and a half years with no real problems. Of course I understand that bigger, more complicated houses pose more risk.
Been in the house for a year. No pressure loss on the suprima side until 4 weeks due to open ball fix's buried in the floor, very curious. Do like both ideas of using fragrance and compressed air to find leaks but more the air as its immediate and shouldn't contribute to water damage. Great patience from all but whereabouts exactly were the leaks and is the fireplace drying out?
I lived in a very old cottage where the radiators in the new extension never really got hot. The Problem turned out to be undersized pipes. 15mm instead of 22mm. Once they were replaced - meant tearing up floors to do it. No more issues but it took 3 separate plumbers to get it fixed.
Great video Roger and good sleuthing. Sorry you had this mess to deal with Charles. I'm still living in your old Canadian town and have no plans to return to the UK.
Delighted that the snag was resolved. I have a long and extended system in my house . Mercifully only one boiler. I will now go and label all the components!!!
No. 1 get rid of that old boiler, two get rid of all push fit on combi. boiler, you should never concrete over push fit. I'd cut area of wet, yes bloke doesn't want the hassle as you can see how nice his house is. I'd be ripping up floors where the wet is as that push fit in floor screams bad work. Think overhaul of pipework and boiler needed. That heating valve in the wall streams bodge, bet behind that is leaking rad. Shame I done my shoulder in and had a stroke otherwise I'd help out. The amount of jobs we done fixing bodges. But Roger all the best mate. Thanks from Bill
I remember years ago the heating system at my fathers house started to drain completely in less than an hour. It would empty completely. But there was no sign of any water anywhere. That quantity of water could not be draining inside the house and not be visible. After a lot of head scratching we found the problem. Under an access panel in the floor there was a drain valve installed when the system was built and connected to a soakaway. The rubber washer in this valve had perished and once water started to flow it washed away the crumbly rubber resulting in a complete failure. The floor in question was a parquet floor that had later been carpeted. If I hadn't seen the hatch when the carpet was replaced it would have been extremely difficult for anyone else to find. We lifted the fitted carpet and opened the hatch and there was the drain valve connected to a pipe leadtng towards the outside. When the system was filled with water by using a screwdriver as a listening rod you could hear water running. All I needed to do now was repair or replace the valve.The job was made more urgent by the fact it happened on Christmas Eve and all the shops were shut. Luckily there was a tap washer available, but that was too big in diameter. I mounted it on a bolt in the chuck of a drill and used a file to turn it down to the right diameter. Not ideal but it worked. A few pence worth of washer caused what could have been extremely difficult and very expensive to find. The hatch was a long way from any radiator and not where you would expect to find a pipe. Ideally when a heating system is installed there should be a complete diagram of the system, especially if there is something like this drain valve, useful at times but only if you know it is there.
Simple way to check the heat exchanger of a condensing boiler is to check the condense pipe with the boiler turned off, if there's water running out it's definitely the exchanger leaking.
I'm responding from Toronto, very familiar with Oakville, and as much as I have great sympathy for the subject in this video, forced air heating is hardly preferable, for many reasons, not least health. In many Cdn homes, a huge mistake was made two generations ago when the 'old-fashioned' 'rad systems' (hot water, almost always pumped since the Forties) was ripped out and replaced by forced air. The only advantage to forced air is that you can install a cooling unit for summer use, and even that's a compromise, as the optimal location for heating vs cooling vents is diametrically opposite. Cheap houses have forced air. Well-built pricier/quality homes have rad heating, or electric, but the latter also isn't ideal save for supplementary use or add-ons. *Done right* hot water via a plex distribution system is the way to go. As Roger mentioned, manifold distribution costs more for materials, but it's vastly superior in a number of ways, not least zone isolation and adjustment, let alone trouble-shooting. There's also the plus of integrating solar heated water into the system, and heat pumps. And you're not going to do underfloor heating with forced air, albeit the latter *is* making a reappearance in new-build, North Am being supplied by a Cdn company bases on Swedish developed tech and implementation. The problem in the case of this video isn't that it's hot water, it's that some of the workmanship is shid. It could be forced-air and even more of a nightmare to fix. For the latest leading-edge forced-air underfloor heating, Google "Swedtec" and "Legalett", the latter being quite popular in the US. Google: "Matt Risinger Legalett" to see an episode on it, and examples of both in the US and Canada. It has some real advantages *in some instances*. For this video instance though, pump assisted pressure flow hot water is by far the best way to go. Just be prepared to find the right service company to fix it. Hot water rads are by far the superior way to heat for many reasons.
Plastic pushfit fittings are going to be a future liability issue for the house building industry.They have a shelf life, unlike conventional copper/solder joints.
@@stevenwatson3963 true. All problems I've had with copper have been from poorly soldered joints. I've had a couple of issues with plastic but only because the installer didn't push then in properly.
@@gdfggggg I use little bit of silicone lubricant if I am ever having trouble, to help make sure the fitting is home. Don't know if its recommended or not but has helped me.
Firstly, I am not familar with the systems employed, in the UK. However, plumbing is basically the same, Worldwide. 1) If there is any water leak, in the system, then the relief valve will not expel water, as the static pressure is not high enough, to activate the valve, hence the relief line being dry. 2) if there is any leak, above the concrete slab, then there will be evidence of mould/water damage, to the wall: wallpaper, paintwork, skirting, etc.. 3) the only real way to resolve an issue like this is start at the beginning: cap off the flow/return pipes, to the underfloor heating system, one at a time, pressurise the line, & gauge any pressure drop. When the system maintains pressure (that's called soundness), then you have identified the pipe leg with the issue. nb. the radiator: if the tradesman used any type of sensing device, then the tracer gas (whatever he meant, by that) could simply be residual gas,on the radiator's cap. They are extremely sensitive. When I used to go gasfitting, I would do dual checks; with a secondary test, using soapy-water solution, as the detectors are just too sensitive. Unable to tell, from the video, but was the white cap some sort of relief? If so, then obviously, there would be detection. Another way is to cap off all the pipe legs, & pressure test, with air, or any inert gas, to determine the one, with the leak. All the underfloor heating pipes should be solid, with zero joins, under the slab. My suspicion is, during installation, either a mistake was made, by the installer, or someone has drilled partially through one of the legs. The first area I would look at is, are any of the toilet pans screwed into the concrete floor? I have come across installers running the pipes under tha pan (which should never be the case). I would start with the leg where the removed motorised valve was dry. The smacks of it losing pressure. Disconnect that line -both flow & return (they should be marked; but if installed poorly, they may not be), & check that line, with a pressurised air gauge -like a Kulhmann gauge (used for pressure testing gas lines, after installation). I am afraid, if the leak is under-slab, there is no way to rectify the issue, without digging it up. An absolute waste of time putting a DIY pipe leak additive in; just someone playing on the client's ignorance. The simplest solution is to leave the effected leg capped. The way to find a tradesman, anywhere in the World, is ask friends, etc., if they have had a good experience, with their ones. Be careful to ensure the employed tradesman doesn't contract the job, out to another person. I have seen this happen, to the customer's detriment. caveat: I wrote this without watching the entire video. An antipodean plumber, over over 40 years experience. I hope you get an acceptable solution. Believe when I say I spend hours, every week, fixing other tradesmen's poor workmanship. I would say camera work is an extra expense, that {most likely} will not show any obvious issue. Just FF to end of video. Nice to see the customer found someone who knew what they were doing. One of the first things I ever learned,as an apprentice, was NEVER to put nutted fittings/valves, into enclosed spaces. It is just as disaster, waiting to happen. It is now done with reckless abandon.
If was me I would cut my losses and replace the lot.Seeing how much you have spent on just finding and fixing leaks etc.You could be having leaks for next 10yrs and spending 10k+ and be no better off.The investment would pay off in lower bills,warmer house higher house value and alot less stress. As for hot air heating I used to have this in my first house built in 1970,Barretts I think, it worked well until the boiler packed up and then there was no way to replace the parts.
Remove the burner from the boiler and inspect. It's an old boiler and could be leaking internally. Plastic pipe and fittings may be messy but that's not an indication its leaking. Also being an older system and building, could have external drain valves poking out the wall which need checking. Usually found in the back of flower beds!
Great video sums up how lots of us feel. This customer is knowledgeable and seems to have done his research. I think This would make a great use case for the channel. Hopefully there is a part 2. Good luck hope you can help him 👍
I read in France , if you are a tradesman you have to be registered at the town hall to work in the area . If there are any disputes , the council sort it out . There is no such animal as a cowboy builder there.
you my friend are 100% wrong I have been developing in France for about 15 years - yes tradesmen need to be registered (not all are) and no the council don't sort it out and taking people to court is very expensive as the insurance company don't always pay for this - listen to Roger and get proper contracts etc drawn up...
That was an excellent result then Roger, for Charles, I am so pleased a professional turned up in the end. I had years in the heating business running my own business, I never asked for payment until the job was completed and the customer satisfied. Like yourself, I detest non honest so-called tradesmen. It would have been nice to know which room it was in. Its a nice ending to a disturbing story. By the way I do enjoy your channel even though I was in the game once, before I retired.
Continued wetness = location of leak. The perfume trick sounds good to find a general area. I suspect the chimney area. At 16:27 there is the feed to existing house. Could that be an old leaky feed that was feeding the other area which caused the install of the other boiler and left a leaky feed to be shut off? (maybe even in the ceiling?) Could that have been reconnected when that mechanical valve was removed? If the rest of system isn't wet, don't worry about it. That gas testing doesn't sound like you could find a leak behind walls or ceiling where you can't meter it.
Although it's unrelated to the main story having external floor level same as internal floor level is a red flag... I'm not surprised Roger spent time looking at that during the call. It's so common as well. Like nobody who builds patios has ever thought about the consequences of a high water level at the exterior side of the wall.
Obviously mentioned the usual suspects...PRV etc. To be honest, didn't like the chap slating every plumber that had attended, when faced with push fit fittings that had been buried under the screed/concrete etc the alarm bells would be ringing, as in this could turn nasty really quick. Would the customer be willing to pay if the job was carried out until conclusion? Really good to see the Leak Detection company was able to sort out the poor work done previously.
It's a really good situation. Shark bite or a push fittings are only for temporary fix. You have to do individual pressure test of each loop. It's a pretty simple . Do not do pressure test with boiler connected to all floor heating loops. The bottom line your floor pex piping are done.. I will keep spending money in to the big hole.
Great vid, especially for non trades people. Done right, including showing the resolution to the problem can only serve to help reputable trades people.
This is one of the best videos you have done pls do more like this you get paid thecustomer is happy the prob get sorted truly shows your years of exsperianced all come to in to play and your quality from following you for years is second to none thank you all adds to knowledge base thank do more like this please
lovely, with the floor vents under the extention you should have vents because if you haven't moisture can't escape and joists can be damaged with that. Check under the gravel to see if there is any under it. That's what happened with my house. They fitted new slabs on top of old ones and buried all the vents at the rear of the house. Felt with you regarding trademen.
I had a situation on a boiler after >13 years of use which is good, the rear of the heat exchanger was pressed against rubber ring seals 4 in oil & just one of them was leaking not enough to pinpoint because it was over time it was drying off before it was going to be noticed, anyway I carry spares, so I asked Viessmann to change the heat exchanger over to get better hot warer flow, then when removing it off noticed it was leaking because sure rubber O ring seals do fail after 13 Years, I'm very pleased with Viessmann great combination Boilers ❤👍 It's a pitty you cannot isolate boiler, apply external pressure say 1.5bar then meter that to see if the radiators or pipes are at fault, you could do the same say with the boiler, not operating just to see if the say main heat exchanger in the boiler thats got a pinhole
my best advise would be to take out a british gas contract (make sure its a call out fee/no annual service type contract as this means they won't come out and do a "first visit/inspection") then after about 2 weeks call them out, and their have to repair under terms and conditions as they are regulated by the FCA.
shocking advice basically shafting the trades person ! how about accept that you have a problem and pay for it out of your own pocket because guess what its yours . big company or not its a bad attitude to conduct yourself like that.
Not sure if it was mentioned, but the thermostat he had sticking out of the wall which looks like a TRV is a RTL (Return Temperature Limiter) these are used to fit UFH off the existing radiator circuit, so no manifold as such and just relies on the system pump of the boiler for circulation same as the radiators
Another possibility in my experience (although not so in this case) is a leaking heat exchanger on a condensing boiler where you don't see the leak until you check the condense outlet because the leak can be internal and the water finds it's way into the condensate system. I've also come across a leaking heat exchanger on a non condensing boiler that was leaking when the boiler was running and water was spraying into the combustion area and then evaporating creating steam that came out via the flue.
Fitting air bricks when the external ground level is so high could allow surface water to enter the under-building - or form a gravel drainage channel at wall base off to suitable outfall (a hit & miss hopper at a downpipe?)
Good luck with that Roger, your client is looking at several days of disconnecting and isolating bits of the system so seperate pressure tests can be carried out. Then when we have worked out what is leaking we can remedy and then decide weather to re-pipe up the worst of the spiders nest of push fit nonsense. personally I would leave the boilers in as long as they are in decent nick, but those red Calafi? EVs don't last long, mind you they are only a hundred quid all in. Your client is looking at a fair amount of disruption just to find the problem, but when found probably an easy fix. all the best from J & H Builders
if Canadian building trades are universally polite, efficient and effective - how did that Mike Holmes make a living correcting all the disasters he found? In most programmes he virtually demolished the addition, roof, etc to put it right!
exactly ! I don't know about the U.K. but as an immigrant from the Netherlands my experience with Canadian trades people do not match that glowing review. I wouldn't say they try to rip you off but they are often not very reliable in the sense of showing up and do the work timely.
If he hadn’t come across Skill builder, I would suggest doing away with all the underfloor stuff, drain it down, detach everything and forget it was ever there! Then create a new heating system above the floor boards. It means pipes would have to be surface mounted, but there are ways of hiding that. Never have to worry about underfloor leaks again!
Here in the states we have shark bite fittings and push fittings which should never be used inside of a wall or cavity because the only thing preventing the leak is an o-ring.
I don't trust the Push to Connect fittings. They will eventually fail because the O ring is vulnerable. I recommend cinch fittings. They are cheap and very reliable. I use a Ryobi power cinch tool that makes a perfect cinch and shows a green or red light to verify it is complete. It is made for pex piping, which is great material.
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Air testing the primary side of the heating /hot water is a great way to check a system prior to filling. But don't do what I did many many years ago. I decided to test the DHW pipework with air before filling up. It was a huge six bedroom detached house we had just built, and because of the amount of pipework involved, decided to use a compressor to fill it. The pressure gauge wasn't budging, so I went and made a cup of tea, leaving the compressor running. I was sat down enjoying my tea, getting stuck into the Roger Bisby column in 'Professional Builder' magazine, when it dawned on me I'd left the compressor running. Went upstairs, turned it off with gauge sitting at eight bar, phew, no harm done.
Couple of hours later, opened the airing cupboard door, and there was the brand new 210 litre cylinder, mangled beyond recognition, literally grown six inches in height, destroyed! The pipework could take that pressure no problem , but open vented copper cylinders definitely cannot.
It's not just me then; I installed a new vented indirect cylinder, read all the specs, took note of the max operating pressure well within the scope of the siting, but how to test the installation? I know! fill the tank, close the header feed close the drain cross-feed make sure the hot taps are closed, cap the vent at the header tank, disconnect the hot water tap in the kitchen, cross-feed the main supply into the hot water circuit, go upstairs, get the wife to turn on the mains stop and check for leaks. My head must have been some where else that day, first indication, a slight, puzzling, cracking sound as the insulation separated, then a couple of melodic bongs accompanied by weeping at the vent and by the time I realised my gross error, shouted to the missus to turn off the stop there was a definitely UN-melodic final donnnggg; same capacity, same growth spurt, just with the addition of 210 litres of cold water, which thankfully remained in the cylinder. Specs rated a 33 foot head; my head unaccountably (ex scuba diver ) interpreted this as 33 bar, nowhere near mains pressure, right? The fact that the cylinder remained intact after taking six plus times it's rated pressure impresses me no-end.
So much of this hassle would be saved if houses had some kind of service booklet. You could record anything in it, paint colours, pics of pipe runs, guarantees, boiler certs - everything.
I've just started doing exactly that for my own property. RAL colours for front door, paint used in each room, and I've just finished sketching out the plumbing route of all my pipework (having had to replace a load of corroded gate valves coming from the three header tanks in our loft). Having that service booklet from scratch in every house would be so helpful for everyone.
Like a logbook for a car, but better?
The way Rodger spoke to this guy is brilliant. Tactful and understanding. As for the house and the problems I would’ve been taking the floor up well before it happened here. £500 a time for leak detection in comparison to a days labour just taking the floor up in places to investigate which you’re going to have to do anyway just seems to make sense. I guess people don’t like having their floor taken up but if you can’t see any evidence of damp it must be below ground. I do like the solution in the end though, not something I would’ve thought of as a home owner.
Totally logical Jon and I agree completely with what you suggest.
Yes you sometimes just have to rip the plaster off as it were otherwise you can be faffing around for so long and as Rodger says get rid of all those points of failure, the joints, and bring all the pipework to the surface particularly if you are using any form of underfloor heating otherwise its just asking for problems
first of all i as a timed served plumber of 50 years would never put a push fit fitting anywhere that has not got a view and never in concrete even soldered copper joints in concrete should be covered and finally underfloor heating pipes should be ok to be buried in concrete if they are specified for that job to be laid in a continuous loop without any joints terminated ends above any floor and pressure tested to the maximum bar pressure specified by the pipe manufacturer before any floors concrete or otherwise are laid
The money this guy suck in investigating would have been better spent running new pipe. Crazy costs!
The whole floor? Could work out pricey and if I done that it would be the last board I lifted 😩
Thank you for the excellent video Charles.
I work within the insurance and leak detection industry and have dealt with many issues similar to yours where numerous so called ‘experts’ and experienced people have been unable to resolve issues such as the ones you’re describing.
Starting from the top I will try to explain my thoughts.
1. The issue with the pressure drop which has been resolved and was found to be the heat exchanger is more common than anyone would have you believe. I have carried out 1000s of leak detection surveys and have found this to be the issue on numerous occasions using pressure testing and isolating various areas of the central heating to narrow down the leak area before using a hydrogen/nitrogen tracer gas to accurately determine the location of the leak.
2. The second leak under the carpet and below the screed level under the boiler I’m assuming was on a cold water pipe and had been going for some time (you say weeks or months) this will have unfortunately caused the insulation layer of the floating floor (floating floor: a floor construction which commonly consists of a cement base, insulation and a cement screed on top in which underfloor heating pipes are laid) and any layers below this to now be wet and this is why you’re seeing water damage in the bottoms of the structural walls and chimney breast as these go down below the level of the top screed and down to the base layer of the floating floors. The floating floors can be dried using a method called pressure drying however this would require the removal or partial removal of the wooden flooring so that the underfloor heating can be traced using a thermal camera, holes can be drilled into the floor and dry air introduced to dry the floor construction. The alternative to this would be removal of the wood flooring, screed, underfloor heating, insulation down to the concrete base where drying to the base would still be required.
3. For the third issue on the second boiler I would recommend that a leak detection survey is carried out stating with systematic pressure testing and followed by narrowing the area down further with acoustic testing and tracer gas testing given the size of the leak/pressure drop. The leak detection company seem to have found one small leak but have not determined whether a second leak is present. Regarding the radiator as an estimate you’re probably loosing a few litres of water when it goes from 2 bar to 0 bar and if this were coming from the radiator you would physically see it coming out; the leak detection engineer should know this. It’s also quantifiable as you can easily fill the system to 2 bar and drain off water into a bucket until you reach 0 bar to determine how much water is being lost each time. If the radiator was leaking that badly the wooden flooring below would have cupped and have been badly water stained by now which it doesn’t appear to have done. The reason they haven’t looked for a further issue is because they charge per successful visit and don’t get paid more for finding a second leak. Do you have trace and access insurance on your household insurance policy? Ask them to appoint a company that will not only find the leaks but also pressure test the system following repairing or temporarily repairing any leaks that have been found. I have picked up the pieces from numerous leak detection companies who have done similar and failed to get resolve the issues
4. Given the age of the original property you’re likely to have suspended floors in the original areas of the property. Suspended floors usually consisted of wooden joists fixed into the internal bricks of the cavity walls and above the level of the damp proof course. The joists would usually have been covered with floorboards and then all of the plumbing to the radiators routed in the void below the floor. Underneath the floor would usually be earth and if you had a leak it would be unnoticeable due to the fact that the water would soak away into the earth below. The presence of a suspended floor can usually be confirmed by looking around the outside of the property and finding air bricks placed usually front and back in the bottoms of the external walls, however these are often covered up or blocked when bad renovations are carried out or poor due to poor maintenance.
5. The old area of the property should have air bricks if it has a suspended floor. Without air bricks you run the risk of elevated moisture levels accumulating in the air under the floor when the temperature rises and then during colder periods this can then cause condensation or cause the joists to rot as a relative humidity above 60% for a prolonged period increases the chance of mould growth which could then rot out the timbers that the floor is constructed from.
6. The gas will eventually come up through the wood (the gas that is being detected is Hydrogen which is the smallest molecule and is only really stopped by materials such as plastic and certain types of tile) they are right that it will make locating the leak more challenging, but it should still be possible to determine if the issue is under the bedroom floor or not.
Glad he got sorted. Why do people continue to want fancy bathrooms and kitchens BEFORE they sort out the plumbing? Usual answer I get is I wouldn’t have been able to afford the bathroom if I’d had to sort the pipework first. Bugs me.
Was there an issue before the work on new bathrooms etc.?.Could indicate when the problems started happening.
Yeah because most people assume there would be a complicated issue that 10 qualified plumbers can't fix
Yes it's always always the way mate. Move into a house, redecorate and fit new carpets or even worse laminate flooring, and then, and only then, decide they need a complete rewire/heating system/two storey extension. 🙄
We made this mistake. To be fair, most of the issues were found after we'd already committed to the spend and in our case, didn't look too bad at first investigations
I always ask how often they plan to renovate this room? "Oh never again" then spend a little more and do it properly
I would clear the gravel at the bottom of the outside wall and see if there are any air bricks hidden. If there are, is there any water coming through...or perfume if you put it in the system? If they do put gas in the system, see if any gas is coming outside through the gravel. I would also do a plan showing which boiler fed which rooms of the house. Turn one on and see what gets warm. Also see if there is any condensation on any of the windows/metalwork in any of the rooms. Then get a diagram up and running of the pipework and radiators.
I ain't no plumber (!) but key evidence for the pressure loss issue seems that there's obviously a leak, current or past, at 3:39 and it appears to be on the edge of one of the underfloor heating areas. There must be gallons of water coming out a day (or even in the space of a few minutes) and it's going somewhere, obeying gravity and going downwards out of sight. The slightly dodgy underfloor heating pipes are a bit of a red flag. I'd isolate each area I could and pressure test it all. I have a hunch a floor is going to have to come up to repair/relay underfloor heating pipes. Could even be a nail or screw puncturing one of the underfloor pipes but it would have to be significantly damaged to cause such a volume of water to escape so quickly. More likely a failed joint?
Fracture in the water jacket inside the boiler? Opens up when boiler cools down, closes itself up when boiler on. Puddle of water in the combustion chamber which boils off up the flue each time it fires. Just a thought, and simple to check - pull out the burner.
Edit: I made the above comment at 41 mins into the video, and have now just watched the ending. Reminded me of a job i did many years ago. Similar problem that only became apparent when i fitted a new system boiler. Obviously header tank no longer required. Losing pressure as soon as commissioned. Thought it may have been the coil in the cylinder . Customer informed me they no longer heard a dribbling from the loft at night time. Thought - leak that was being replenished constantly by former header tank. Realised it must be underfloor pipe, somewhere. All concrete floors downstairs. Guessed where the runs might be to each rad and lifted the carpet. Used a large wooden handled screwdriver pressed to my ear, with the blade on the floor (a technique i used to use to check pumps were working and their speeds). Checking every few inches, on my knees, customer watching, thinking I'm a plonker. Then i heard it. About 2 feet from the outside corner of the living room. Started chipping ing away at the concrete and found the leak on an elbow upturn. Concrete laid straight onto bare copper! Left it a few days to dry out before reconcreting over new sleeved plastic pipe. The inner leaf of brickwork, right in the corner, had fallen away for about three courses. Customer took me outside to show me where he'd been patching the outside corner rendering for years! Must have spent a lot of wasted money on their water bills! Happy days. And believe it or not, the customers were Mr and Mrs Day! I swear that is true.
John, out of interest - why did you join it with plastic? Assuming it wasn't left accessible ;-). I've never understood why people wouldn’t copper pipe (and sleeve) it...given that you were going to reconcrete it - hoping to be enlightened!
Not at the end yet, unlikely to be the heat exchanger as looks like it's not condensing so would have water dripping from the boiler. As said could be the coil on the cylinder if a vented cylinder?
Finally traced a water issue - little pond under the bath - in a basement bathroom. The original water pipes had been installed in a new concrete floor about 30 years previously when the property was renovated. Took three plumbers, I finally persuaded one to pressure test the hot and cold pipework. It turned out the old buried copper pipe (lagged when buried) had finally given way on the hot side (heat being the catalyst) and I'm assuming the client's cold will go eventually too. To save a big excavation - and a new floor - another plumber simply bypassed the hot supply on the surface. I hate the practice of burying pipes - and other elements - without feasible access. You wouldn't buy a car with the bonnet welded shut in the factory...
Underfloor heating is buried pipework!!?
New floor every 30 years sounds reasonable.
@@Sussy-Walter It sounds reasonable if it's due 30 years in the future. When it's overdue 6 months in the past, it's a disaster.
We never bury push fit joints in concrete, been called to too many leaks where expansion and contraction has caused the joint to go in the concrete. I'd be willing to go have a look but it's a bit far out of Sussex/Surrey. Couple of worrying things with this build; the people you had work on it not great but bad relationships aren't always a signature of bad workmanship.
However it's losing water in a suspended floor with no known ventilation under a plywood sub-floor. That's possibly the most worrying as rot can set in and destroy the floor in a very short amount of time in that situation and it won't always show up on your finished floor above.
This honestly needs testing circuit by circuit if possible but it's unlikely as it's bodge onto bodge.
Edit: I'd advise Charles to look up his house on Rightmove history/old Google Earth pictures etc and see if their are air bricks visible on old photos and where they were. It's free and for a couple hours searching online it can give you a really good base for knowing what has been done and changed on a property and how they might have gone about certain additions.
Also, central air and AC is just a more efficient and less costly setup, sadly we're one of the few developed countries in the world that doesn't regularly use it.
spot on mate.
And the heat loss at each joint, although not detectable, adds up when you have a load of them.
I've learnt in over the years that doing an air pressure test is time well spent. As well as shut offs on the flow and returns of each loop.
basic fault detection isn't it. Isolate and test. Takes time though as you may need to cut pipes add fittings to separate circuits but just starting with entire flow + return is a start and work from there..
Yep I agree…. It pays to pressure test .. I just have a small air compressor that blows of at 3 bar with a 5 bar gauge, so you can see the pressure drop off quickly..I am old school, it’s copper all the time…not into plastic..
@@TheBrick2 I wonder if anyone has developed an externally mounted sensor that could clip around a pipe and measure flow rate?
If you could measure all the inlets and outlets, whichever circuit didn’t have equal in & out flow would be the target for more destructive testing….
Will start off by saying that I am anything but a pro but how about drilling some small holes in inconspicuous areas and putting a camera or even just a wooden stick down to dip test under the wooden floor, easy to fill and make good or if the floor then has to come up you can replace the boards? Sorry in advance if this is a stupid idea!
Check your house insurance, the search and find aspect of the works are generally covered. The fix is not covered.
All the multi occupant buildings we work on are covered for search and find.
Love the detective work Roger, more like this, it was a real treat, thank you.
Roger, you are such a top Bloke. Thank you so much for all the help you give to everyone.
So glad he got the problem fixed my heart goes out to him and his family as I've had bad experiences with some trades myself but think most of them saw the dodgy pipework and ran for the hills after taking call out charge - good on the guy who did the pressure test and found the air leaking 😊😊😊
Nice video, Roger. As a general builder, I guessed there was a leak as soon as he said he'd tested the chimney breast and damp was creeping up a metre. Such a shame that a beautiful house had basic issues that should have been sorted long before those finishes were installed. The plastic pipe is brilliant but Id avoid fittings in inexcessable places at all costs.
It's a horrible feeling when you can't find a leak, and know that it's soaking in _somewhere._ Great to (literally) hear that resolution.
The moral is: if you have a significant leak, FFS use your ears **first**, before you spend precious time digging up floorboards, isolating off areas, compressing the system, trying to understand dog's dinner pipe runs or introducing perfume. Ears are free, handy and fairly reliable.
I was lying in the bath late one night shortly after moving into a new house and heard the gravity feed cistern filling when no water should have been running. Why? I wondered. Why are we wasting water? A quick check showed no leaking tap or overflow.
My ears had already told me the problem, so I followed their advice. I took a piece of flexible plastic pipe (a doctor's stethoscope would have been better) and went round listening to the radiators and pipework.
I quickly found where the sound was loudest but there was no obvious problem -- until I took up a floorboard and was greeted by water spraying out from a pipe which had obviously been leaking for many years. The floorboard had been carefully nailed down through the pipe when the board was replaced over the new pipe work for the central heating system. Much water and heat had been turning the subfloor in to a tropical greenhouse over the years and we were lucky that the sodden floorboards and joists (invisible under carpet and lining) were not well rotten. They had clearly and fortunately been rot-proofed and all eventually dried out fine.
Stethoscope: as important a piece of a plumber's toolkit as a doctor's. Mechanics know to use them.
If you do decide to put a fragrance into your heating system , please make sure its compatible with the materials of the heating system, specially the boiler, pumps, O-rings etc. For instance a presence of KCI & NaCI (Alkalis) will accelerate high temperature corrosion of Stainless Steel. I certainly wouldn't use any Chloride solutions or sodium chloride.
Good luck! I'm an electrical engineer, landlord and homeowner who does my own plumbing... since childhood when I learned it from my father. I'm also a seasoned troubleshooter... based in Southern California... so I'm not familiar with English heating systems. But my Dad was a steam fitting contractor and I recognize "wet heat" radiators, etc. No you wouldn't get water out of a leaky bleeder at the top of a radiator because of the location. "Location location location"applies to more than real estate TRANSACTIONS. ;) Pardon my attempts at humor. Getting back to the point of my entry into this fray: Since childhood, people tossed mysterious appliances and equipment at me, asking me to "FIX it." The #1 rule of hardware troubleshooting is that you need a COMPLETE WIRING DIAGRAM. In this case, a piping diagram. Complete means that all intra-conduit components are characterized. Your BIG PROBLEM is lack of information, and you are "swinging in the dark" at problems now that you have a wild, pissed-off tiger by the tail. The object is not only to quiet all such inconveniences, but to master the KNOWLEDGE PROBLEM. THEN, you can bring in specialists who charge £500/hr to give you specific answers to complex questions. So hire an engineer who likes to dissect problems, and document his finding with excellent diagrams. Expect to pay 5 figures, in a mess like you have.
PLAN B? You need a barrister.
A real shame whilst renovating (nicely), the house they didn't sort out the plumbing and wiring when they had all the floors up.
Hopefully Charles doesn't have any more issues with that rats nest of pipework.
Great video Roger.
Really shows the danger of focusing on the cosmetic side and ignoring the actual services and infrastructure of the house. So many people have built lovely bathrooms/kitchens on top of plumbing and wiring that's either badly done or past it's useful service life.
Not long into the vid as Charles was explaining all that had happened, I was starting to think it was something simple, because in my experience it usually is. I would have been isolating circuits and testing one by one, and labelling behind me as I worked. I have a very good label printer for less than £25, I label everything.
This is the type of job I love, I relish being called in after many others have failed, it’s good to be tested. I don’t know how some people sleep at night charging £500/day and not even finding the problem, at that fee you’re setting yourself up as the expert so you’d better find it ( Good tip about the perfume. I’ve not heard of that one before) and if not at least offer a huge discount for a follow up.
Your right about the quality of engineers these days, slap dash and not interested in doing anything difficult
Good on ya mate
£500 to try and say it was loosing that much pressure/water through a vent plug !
@@martinranson4262 looseing almost a var an hour, but no sign of water, must be the bleed valve, scary how they tried to blame ot on this, just a bit of common sense needed.
51:03 for the answer, I only say this as it would seem (from the comments) not many have watched to the end, as they are still speculating what the root issue is!
So happy to hear another to say no push fit hidden, manifold with many pipes just don’t make sense unless one charges 3x for every fitting and wants dosh rather than a good job, even buying 90° braces can be difficult pvc bends so beautifully no 90° needed and a fluid flow to boot so much less resistance no brainier Roger your a gem 👍🏽nice stance you take humble admiration. I helped a plumber friend in the states where plumbing is inspected even having to use a purple primer on solvent weld on waste which is swimming pool quality 3-4 mm wall thickness on 1 ½ no purple visible take that section out and redo, i learned some of my plumbing from a German guy with welded poly just like they do the underground yellow gas i’m surprised we don’t do that here too several makes cuprax italia and the German green can’t remember the name but what a system, thanks again for the video Roger.
Perhaps just pressure up between rads.
Great video, that's standard practice here in Australia, they use a listening device to locate the position of the noise, if the leaks too small they pump up the lines with air and it makes the location more obvious, they can normally pin point the area down to around 300mm by 300mm square, all the best mate
When pressure loss is not attributed to a failed expansion vessel or prv …..then the best solution is to isolate circuits to find/prove the leak
I hope you guys found a solution to your problem by now! I agree with Roger the problem is likely under the slab.
First thing I would do is set the boiler good and hot and turn on all the heating, then I'd use a thermal imaging camera to identify where all the lines are running, and take pictures using the camera so I know what is happening under the floor. If the leak is bad enough you may see a strange heat spot where the leak is happening.
Next I would install shut off valves on each of the zones supply and returns. This will allow you to isolate each heating loop one at a time and determine which zone is losing pressure. Once you determine which zone is losing the pressure you can refer to the images you took with the thermal imaging camera to see what the associated piping in that loop does. The leak is likely happening at a fitting under the slab, they should be visible as tight bends or tees in the images. This should bring you much closer to a solution to your problem.
Good luck with this! I would look to have a long term goal of consolidating all heating to one heat source. A good conveniently located boiler. I would then determine how to chase insulated mains from the boiler's location to feed the lines from the eliminated second boiler. Best of luck from Vancouver, Canada.
Excellent strategy. Another consideration is, if the boiler leak is under the slab, it is probably undermining the ground around it. This could eventually trigger a collapse of the slab.
I guess adding bad plumbing onto bad plumbing will result in long term problems. Such a bad situation he was in . As a retired heating engineer I personally would have Isolated the boilers and put them under test for pressure loss. Same on the underfloor heating. I am pleased to hear the customer got it all sorted. The fact that there was no leaking water seen above kind of leads us to say the problem was under the floor so why wasnt the uf circuits tested for pressure loss, worrying that so many engineers overlooked this. I would have quoted for the time it would take to do the job, nothing is free except a bit of friendly advice.
Really interesting. I’m so glad this guy got sorted as it was clearly driving him crazy.
Is it sorted out now ..?.....?
Love your sincere interest in people, problems, tyrants and resolve...
Thank you for your educating work that helps many of us with some 'tool' ability, but not always the correct knowledge. Super guy 👍
cudos Roger... honestly, I was totally frustrated with his take from the minute he spoke. You handled it brilliantly. And, the 2nd leak company.. brilliant❤ Your input is awesome, Roger. And Dillan did perfect moderating😎
Very good video Roger, felt sorry for Charles paying out all that money, as you say recommendations worth their weight in gold. Glad he got it sorted though. I'm an electrician, semi retired in Portugal now, but my last job in the UK the owner of a flat asked me to replace the old lead cold and hot water system. It was a pretty simple job as some pipework had been replaced by copper already. However I did mark all the exposed pipework in the boiler cupboard and screwed a laminated map of where all the pipework ran. Same as I did for my electrical work, it just makes it so easy for anyone else comin later on to either extend the system or fix a leak etc.
I remember having to repair a big mains leak. Not showing anywhere. Turns out anglian picked up on it from the meter which they mislabelled and piped up to next doors the wrong way. The leak was from a pin hole in copper under the damp proof membrane. The leak detection services in this video don't sound too good tbh.
Excellent presentation. I agree entirely that the compressed air is a far better way of finding what was a fairly major leak. One issue is that sealing everything away with sealed floors and concrete etc makes life very hard to find these sorts of problems. Easy access being possibly less attractive but more practical.
I had a leak in my Central Heating system. Having checked all the radiators using tissue paper wrapped around the valve joints to see if they had been affected by water - None of them indicated a joint leak. No indication from any ceiling marks then led me to investigate under the ground floor rooms. Luckily for me I was able to peal back the carpet in the ground floor rooms and look for a leak(s). Given previous work plumbing/electric work had meant that there were easy sections of floorboards that could be unscrewed. I was able to use a £18 3mtr Boroscope attached to my laptop to look for a leak. It wasn't long before I found that a 15mm pipe had not been given enough clearance against a corner brick and with the constant expansion and contraction of the copper pipe - had worn away part of it to create a pin hole. If the plumber had only given the pipe another 10mm of clearance the original pipe all would still be OK today. I managed to cut out the damaged pipe and fit a new 1 mtr section to stay clear of the brick corner. Total cost of parts - around £15 (early 2017). I also sleeved the pipe with 20mm plastic pipe where it had to go through a gap in the under floor brickwork where the floor joists where supported (another section was sitting on top of a brick where it went from one room to another). Also used the opportunity to fill some insulation over the 15mm pipe work to ensure that more heat go to the radiators. Quite satisfying to be able to do the repair myself - not being a plumber. Use compression fittings rather than soldered joints. Have now over two years replaced all my 30 year old radiators with Myson Premier Compact ones all with slightly more BTU than the previous ones. All now have Drayton TRV4's attached so they can be turned down if necc. 10 Rads cost me a total of £1200. Looking at the price of the Rads now - they are all nearly twice what I paid in 2017/18. I do feel sorry for those that have no practical ability to do some of their own "DIY" work and have to totally relay on the ability of others to sort things out. I even fitted the Geberit Toilet and Basin frames (both Villeroy & Boch off floor mounted) for my bathroom refub back in 2013 as the plumber/tiler that I had to do the work had no idea what they were. They also said they had never seen a shower install that had a separate diverted valve to allow for a wall outlet for a flexi hose as well as an overhead shower head. To be fair it had taken me 5 years of design and planning and acquiring all the necessary fitments before work started on the Bathroom. 9 years on and it still looks like it was done yesterday. I have nearly 100 pics from the way it was before any work started to every stage of the refurb so the joists and pipe runs can easily be seen. From working on Cars - one thing I've learned is that you take pictures - and lots of them so you know what things look like during and after the event. Isolating valves fitted on all the service pipes. Nuff Said,
Well done mate. 👍🏼
I watch Laura Kampf, on TH-cam, who's just bought an old house, she's a carpenter. Ripping the whole place out so not so bad but came in one morning to find pool of water in and outside the downstairs toilet. They pulled the wall part to find an old pipe with a tiny pin prick of a leak. Shows how much damage can be done from even a small pin prick in a pipe.
Hi Steven. 👋
It's so sad to see how one be depressed. Gotta do something Roger. That man needs you out there
Looks a mess, but I doubt it needs a total overhaul. Needs a reasonable amount of time to go though and establish what's going on, and go from there. Customers rarely like paying for this (I can understand, it's days of effectively just looking at things) however, it may save on overhauling decorative finishes. A drawn up system layout would be hugely beneficial for future trades too.
What I don't like is the two boiler arrangement, I would be upfront in recommending taking a F&R and a hot from the suprima boiler cupboard over to the combi. Lose the combi. Lose the complication of two separate systems that share spaces.
The damp could be caused by other factors, but pressure dropping suggests a leak - as it sounds like the expansion vessel is still good.
There are a plethora of ways to find a leak, and we've all got our favorites. I like using a compressor as it often gives you hissing noise or blows apart a failing joint - makes locating problem areas very easy.
Spoke too soon! Another win for compressed air then :)
As it is a S-plan type system i would isolate each zone and pressure test each zone to find where the drop lies, including the coil in the cylinder, going through it this way is the most cost effective way imo
I feel totally gutted for this chap, and for me the money spent there so far to sort this, it's just so sad,I cannot help wondering as somebody else has mentioned that it might be a combination of a pipe leak and groundwater because of the levels outside, also I feel those floors have to come up to be 100 percent certain of fixing the problem, i also feel this all needs starting again, one new boiler, and a completely new system from start to finish,i cannot help thinking unless you do this,the probs will just continue, forever, Throwing loads more cash at repairs and guess work is a nonsense.
let me add a 'Yes' to many of the comments below. Just to add that its people like Roger, and others like Robin Clevett, who give Builders a good name, both in terms of their knowledge, and intellect about how things work. Also, like Jon mentions below, the way these guys engage with people, and you can tell its not put on for the camera but sincere, is inspiring. Thanks Roger.
Watch till the end
Re hot air heating , it was never popular in the UK almost all the new property's where it was fitted have over ther years had it removed. Yes wet heating can leak but , ducts need space (preferably inside), cause compartmentalisation issues (fire safety) can transmit noise , filters need changing frequently etc... but one possible advantage is the air movement they create means condensation issues are likely reduced .
Mold is a major and common health issue in the UK. Ventilation is all too often ignored.
Hi ya Pal .that was one extremely interesting video .... OMG that poor chap ... The fix .... That was nice ..Ear ear as they say .... lol ..please keep them coming .think I might be addicted now , up till 4:20am watching you .... THANKS
I’m a general builder rather than a plumber, and over 40 odd years I’ve come across similar situations. Generally I only work by recommendation, and that goes both ways. A good relationship with the customer, honest and communicative is essential. Using unknown builders of whatever nationality is a no no. Don’t be in a hurry to get the work done. The best people are worth waiting for and worth seeking out. Sometimes a good customer and a good tradesman don’t gel for whatever reason - move on !
Another point maybe that a foreign builder may be working on unfamiliar systems and regulations causing them to produce an unsatisfactory job.
Suspended floors on timber joists should never be in ground contact, but up on Dpc on dwarf walls - air bricks essential. Never take external reader to the ground, it can lead to capillary damp up the wall - use a bell cast bead at the render base at least 150mm above ground.
On the plumbing side, I’m just surprised that Charles didn’t rationalise the whole system to 1 boiler and mega flow etc for all the house, with continuous new pipe work under the floors and renew the manifolds, pumps and valves with a properly designed system for full peace of mind. Relative to the property prices in Datchet, the cost though significant would in the long run be beneficial. More efficient system cheaper to run, and should he wish to sell, a fully certificated system as a selling point.
Hi Roger a very interesting video, i'm a retired plumber (heating engineer of 45 years) when the second boiler came into the equation running the hot water system my thoughts were immediately drawn to the domestic hot water rather than the heating, so many tradesmen turn automatically to the new installations rather than looking at the basic pipework in plain view.
Good to see it was resolved and what a price for a leaky bath tap pipe.
1st thing I’d be looking at is the expansion vessels on both systems.
The house bashers in Scotland tend to do a cover up as the customers don’t want to spend money. It’s only when the floor rots out that you find the bodges.
My own house has had a fire and it was just covered over in every room. Could never get rid of the burning smell …. All smoke damage was just clad over.
Found some amazing bodges like a single 2.5 mm cable running an entire kitchen extension.
Cable was red hot however it was lying in a damp clay basement and that was helping to keep it going…
Roger you are great , I feel a bit of confidence just watching this , you are old school I just love the fact you suggested using “ BRUT “ cologne as the smell . I bet you still use ‘enry’s ‘ ammer soap- on- a-rope , all the best Roger
Hopefully push fit connections under the floor are illegal in the UK as they are in other countries in Europe? A home inspection should also have marked this as an alarming fault before sale so you as a buyer would have a fighting change of getting the price reduced. If they are not able to inspect it because it's hidden the change of ownership insurance should cover the cost. The floor needs to come up and all the piping work needs to be replaced without any push fittings under the floor boards. Otherwise you will keep finding new problems for years to come
Hi Roger, this is such an interesting tale!, there is obviously a leak somewhere in the heating system, exactly where it is is obviously a mystery, sadly it could easily be buried under the floor somewhere and could well be some distance from where the wet is showing.
I like the idea of using a smelly soluble compound in the system, I also like the way you work so hard to explore as many possibilities as you can think of and encourage the man to explore the place for you. The point that I would make is that regardless of exactly where the leak is a substantial length of defective pipe will have to be replaced and that will mean taking up quite a lot of the floor!, someone is going to have to open it all up and get at it!.
Cheers, Richard.
I agree..... Most people buy a house, sugar coat it, then realise the plumbing and electrics are shot, and in need of upgrading. Bugs me too. Get the basics done: Plumbing, electrics, general building works. Then put your nice kitchen and bathroom in last.
Hi Roger during the Video I wanted to say just pressurise the system and listen for the air it works ….and then at the end that is exactly what they did.
Customers don’t like it they just want it fixed but I totally agree a manifold bring all the pipes to valves good quality and neaten the job up. I am now semi retired at 69 I have had it with the poor workmanship out there. I am not saying pushfit don’t have a role but good old copper and compression joints on a manifold above the floor. I have a £12m house sold screeded floor with compression plastic fittings loosing pressure. The Customer only wants work done if I can guarantee success. During lockdown I let that job go leak after leak
Well done Roger for helping. One reasons trades are trouble free in North America is due to liability and legal system. In the UK you have to be rich to get justice. Trading Standards will laugh at you if you complain.
[trades are trouble free in North America] lol...surely you jest?
I would isolate the boiler ,and isolate each circuit and pressure test individual hopefully find the leak ,pressure testing is the only way you get this sorted
Great outcome. Hopefully the guy can enjoy his beautiful house now.
Patients and using all the senses is the key.
It's a shame that some of the commentators below aren't patient enough to listen to the end of the video!!
Watching and typing my assumptions/observations on the fly.
9:54 - my immediate interest would be the Danfoss valve that seems to lead nowhere, I have seen homes that had radiators removed but the pipes were just closed with the uninstalled valves and in this situation the pressure leak is just really quick so I would close the Danfoss valve completely and try to observe any change. Anyway, let's watch further
52:00 - *sigh* who in their right mind leaves a valve beneath the floor? It's basically the most probable point for a leak. I am happy to hear it's been sorted out. I, myself prefer tracking down the issue and solving it without hastily change/modify parts without proper diagnose. I had a customer that had an issue with an electric boiler/heating system that just randomly lost pressure and then shut itself off. He had a tennant in the apartment and during winter it was a big issue because she couldn't heat up the apartment or use hot water for a longer period of time without having issues. The owner requested a complete replacement of the system because he had multiple people come and look at it but to me it wasn't reasonable for a 3 year old system to behave that strangely because I pressure tested the pipes and there was no loss. After two short visits with some testing I ruled out every single option and I was left with a faulty pressure sensor inside the boiler. Ordered the part, replaced and saved the owner tons of money. That is a job well done in my book, not going after the priciest option at hand
In New Zealand it is illegal to have any joints within a concrete floor, all pipework is joined as a continuos length at the manifold... my heart goes out to this guy...the host I believe has nailed it that its a leaky press fit connection
Whenever I hear ‘character’ I hear money pit. Assuming he solves that one problem, he’ll soon be discovering more. Full strip out and a complete one design system is needed. Or years of headaches and passing tradesmen
bollocks
I’d tend to agree. Anyone would be put off from countless add-ons from the years.
I agree, systems get old, inefficient & dangerous, sometimes you must bite the bullet and start again.
It depends really. We bought a characterful cottage in Devon. It didn't involve a mortgage so I opted to forgo a survey because we considered them to be poor value for money in the past. I was satisfied with the likely overall condition of the property and so was my daughter-in-laws father who is quite handy. That said, there was (and is) no central heating, so in that regard comparatively little to go wrong. It has solid floors, a newish cylinder and wood burner and we installed new electric rads. The roof was also converted around twenty years ago so there shouldn't be much trouble there. We rated the kitchen and bathroom usable and we've been here for three and a half years with no real problems. Of course I understand that bigger, more complicated houses pose more risk.
Been in the house for a year. No pressure loss on the suprima side until 4 weeks due to open ball fix's buried in the floor, very curious. Do like both ideas of using fragrance and compressed air to find leaks but more the air as its immediate and shouldn't contribute to water damage. Great patience from all but whereabouts exactly were the leaks and is the fireplace drying out?
I lived in a very old cottage where the radiators in the new extension never really got hot. The Problem turned out to be undersized pipes. 15mm instead of 22mm. Once they were replaced - meant tearing up floors to do it. No more issues but it took 3 separate plumbers to get it fixed.
Great video Roger and good sleuthing. Sorry you had this mess to deal with Charles. I'm still living in your old Canadian town and have no plans to return to the UK.
Delighted that the snag was resolved. I have a long and extended system in my house . Mercifully only one boiler. I will now go and label all the components!!!
No. 1 get rid of that old boiler, two get rid of all push fit on combi. boiler, you should never concrete over push fit. I'd cut area of wet, yes bloke doesn't want the hassle as you can see how nice his house is. I'd be ripping up floors where the wet is as that push fit in floor screams bad work. Think overhaul of pipework and boiler needed. That heating valve in the wall streams bodge, bet behind that is leaking rad. Shame I done my shoulder in and had a stroke otherwise I'd help out. The amount of jobs we done fixing bodges. But Roger all the best mate. Thanks from Bill
Great job Roger .....a video like a crime.......
I remember years ago the heating system at my fathers house started to drain completely in less than an hour. It would empty completely. But there was no sign of any water anywhere. That quantity of water could not be draining inside the house and not be visible. After a lot of head scratching we found the problem.
Under an access panel in the floor there was a drain valve installed when the system was built and connected to a soakaway. The rubber washer in this valve had perished and once water started to flow it washed away the crumbly rubber resulting in a complete failure.
The floor in question was a parquet floor that had later been carpeted. If I hadn't seen the hatch when the carpet was replaced it would have been extremely difficult for anyone else to find.
We lifted the fitted carpet and opened the hatch and there was the drain valve connected to a pipe leadtng towards the outside. When the system was filled with water by using a screwdriver as a listening rod you could hear water running.
All I needed to do now was repair or replace the valve.The job was made more urgent by the fact it happened on Christmas Eve and all the shops were shut.
Luckily there was a tap washer available, but that was too big in diameter. I mounted it on a bolt in the chuck of a drill and used a file to turn it down to the right diameter. Not ideal but it worked.
A few pence worth of washer caused what could have been extremely difficult and very expensive to find. The hatch was a long way from any radiator and not where you would expect to find a pipe.
Ideally when a heating system is installed there should be a complete diagram of the system, especially if there is something like this drain valve, useful at times but only if you know it is there.
Simple way to check the heat exchanger of a condensing boiler is to check the condense pipe with the boiler turned off, if there's water running out it's definitely the exchanger leaking.
Great point!
I'm responding from Toronto, very familiar with Oakville, and as much as I have great sympathy for the subject in this video, forced air heating is hardly preferable, for many reasons, not least health. In many Cdn homes, a huge mistake was made two generations ago when the 'old-fashioned' 'rad systems' (hot water, almost always pumped since the Forties) was ripped out and replaced by forced air. The only advantage to forced air is that you can install a cooling unit for summer use, and even that's a compromise, as the optimal location for heating vs cooling vents is diametrically opposite.
Cheap houses have forced air. Well-built pricier/quality homes have rad heating, or electric, but the latter also isn't ideal save for supplementary use or add-ons.
*Done right* hot water via a plex distribution system is the way to go. As Roger mentioned, manifold distribution costs more for materials, but it's vastly superior in a number of ways, not least zone isolation and adjustment, let alone trouble-shooting. There's also the plus of integrating solar heated water into the system, and heat pumps. And you're not going to do underfloor heating with forced air, albeit the latter *is* making a reappearance in new-build, North Am being supplied by a Cdn company bases on Swedish developed tech and implementation.
The problem in the case of this video isn't that it's hot water, it's that some of the workmanship is shid. It could be forced-air and even more of a nightmare to fix.
For the latest leading-edge forced-air underfloor heating, Google "Swedtec" and "Legalett", the latter being quite popular in the US. Google: "Matt Risinger Legalett" to see an episode on it, and examples of both in the US and Canada. It has some real advantages *in some instances*.
For this video instance though, pump assisted pressure flow hot water is by far the best way to go. Just be prepared to find the right service company to fix it. Hot water rads are by far the superior way to heat for many reasons.
Plastic pushfit fittings are going to be a future liability issue for the house building industry.They have a shelf life, unlike conventional copper/solder joints.
Conventional soldering has its issues to. I’ve seen pushfits that are very old and they still work, no leaks.
@@gdfggggg Fair comment, but well installed (hair felt)solder and copper have a far greater lifespan than rubber "0" rings.
@@stevenwatson3963 true. All problems I've had with copper have been from poorly soldered joints. I've had a couple of issues with plastic but only because the installer didn't push then in properly.
Plastic joints should last 50yrs, no problem.
@@gdfggggg I use little bit of silicone lubricant if I am ever having trouble, to help make sure the fitting is home. Don't know if its recommended or not but has helped me.
Firstly, I am not familar with the systems employed, in the UK. However, plumbing is basically the same, Worldwide.
1) If there is any water leak, in the system, then the relief valve will not expel water, as the static pressure is not high enough, to activate the valve, hence the relief line being dry.
2) if there is any leak, above the concrete slab, then there will be evidence of mould/water damage, to the wall: wallpaper, paintwork, skirting, etc..
3) the only real way to resolve an issue like this is start at the beginning: cap off the flow/return pipes, to the underfloor heating system, one at a time, pressurise the line, & gauge any pressure drop. When the system maintains pressure (that's called soundness), then you have identified the pipe leg with the issue.
nb. the radiator: if the tradesman used any type of sensing device, then the tracer gas (whatever he meant, by that) could simply be residual gas,on the radiator's cap. They are extremely sensitive. When I used to go gasfitting, I would do dual checks; with a secondary test, using soapy-water solution, as the detectors are just too sensitive. Unable to tell, from the video, but was the white cap some sort of relief? If so, then obviously, there would be detection.
Another way is to cap off all the pipe legs, & pressure test, with air, or any inert gas, to determine the one, with the leak.
All the underfloor heating pipes should be solid, with zero joins, under the slab.
My suspicion is, during installation, either a mistake was made, by the installer, or someone has drilled partially through one of the legs. The first area I would look at is, are any of the toilet pans screwed into the concrete floor? I have come across installers running the pipes under tha pan (which should never be the case). I would start with the leg where the removed motorised valve was dry. The smacks of it losing pressure. Disconnect that line -both flow & return (they should be marked; but if installed poorly, they may not be), & check that line, with a pressurised air gauge -like a Kulhmann gauge (used for pressure testing gas lines, after installation).
I am afraid, if the leak is under-slab, there is no way to rectify the issue, without digging it up. An absolute waste of time putting a DIY pipe leak additive in; just someone playing on the client's ignorance. The simplest solution is to leave the effected leg capped.
The way to find a tradesman, anywhere in the World, is ask friends, etc., if they have had a good experience, with their ones. Be careful to ensure the employed tradesman doesn't contract the job, out to another person. I have seen this happen, to the customer's detriment.
caveat: I wrote this without watching the entire video.
An antipodean plumber, over over 40 years experience. I hope you get an acceptable solution.
Believe when I say I spend hours, every week, fixing other tradesmen's poor workmanship. I would say camera work is an extra expense, that {most likely} will not show any obvious issue. Just FF to end of video. Nice to see the customer found someone who knew what they were doing. One of the first things I ever learned,as an apprentice, was NEVER to put nutted fittings/valves, into enclosed spaces. It is just as disaster, waiting to happen. It is now done with reckless abandon.
If was me I would cut my losses and replace the lot.Seeing how much you have spent on just finding and fixing leaks etc.You could be having leaks for next 10yrs and spending 10k+ and be no better off.The investment would pay off in lower bills,warmer house higher house value and alot less stress.
As for hot air heating I used to have this in my first house built in 1970,Barretts I think, it worked well until the boiler packed up and then there was no way to replace the parts.
Remove the burner from the boiler and inspect. It's an old boiler and could be leaking internally. Plastic pipe and fittings may be messy but that's not an indication its leaking. Also being an older system and building, could have external drain valves poking out the wall which need checking. Usually found in the back of flower beds!
Great video sums up how lots of us feel. This customer is knowledgeable and seems to have done his research. I think This would make a great use case for the channel. Hopefully there is a part 2. Good luck hope you can help him 👍
Roger you are such an helpful bloke and love your posts. Please update if you manage to resolve it. Best regards Mick
Watch it till the end...💡💡💡
Watch the end 4 minutes
I read in France , if you are a tradesman you have to be registered at the town hall to work in the area . If there are any disputes , the council sort it out . There is no such animal as a cowboy builder there.
you my friend are 100% wrong I have been developing in France for about 15 years - yes tradesmen need to be registered (not all are) and no the council don't sort it out and taking people to court is very expensive as the insurance company don't always pay for this - listen to Roger and get proper contracts etc drawn up...
In France some people work 'on the black' which is opposite to your statement.
That was an excellent result then Roger, for Charles, I am so pleased a professional turned up in the end. I had years in the heating business running my own business, I never asked for payment until the job was completed and the customer satisfied. Like yourself, I detest non honest so-called tradesmen. It would have been nice to know which room it was in. Its a nice ending to a disturbing story. By the way I do enjoy your channel even though I was in the game once, before I retired.
Continued wetness = location of leak. The perfume trick sounds good to find a general area.
I suspect the chimney area. At 16:27 there is the feed to existing house. Could that be an old leaky feed that was feeding the other area which caused the install of the other boiler and left a leaky feed to be shut off? (maybe even in the ceiling?) Could that have been reconnected when that mechanical valve was removed? If the rest of system isn't wet, don't worry about it.
That gas testing doesn't sound like you could find a leak behind walls or ceiling where you can't meter it.
Although it's unrelated to the main story having external floor level same as internal floor level is a red flag... I'm not surprised Roger spent time looking at that during the call. It's so common as well. Like nobody who builds patios has ever thought about the consequences of a high water level at the exterior side of the wall.
Talking through that with the guy is a nice thing to do.
I wish I had gone there with my perfume
@@SkillBuilder No good 21st Century builder would leave home without some.
@@SkillBuilder Not Brute or Hai Karate though, i hope...lol
Obviously mentioned the usual suspects...PRV etc.
To be honest, didn't like the chap slating every plumber that had attended, when faced with push fit fittings that had been buried under the screed/concrete etc the alarm bells would be ringing, as in this could turn nasty really quick. Would the customer be willing to pay if the job was carried out until conclusion?
Really good to see the Leak Detection company was able to sort out the poor work done previously.
Were there any videos after this one? Would love to know what the outcome was
It is on the end of the video
@@SkillBuilder Sorry, must've left too early! Thanks SB
It's a really good situation.
Shark bite or a push fittings are only for temporary fix.
You have to do individual pressure test of each loop.
It's a pretty simple .
Do not do pressure test with boiler connected to all floor heating loops.
The bottom line your floor pex piping are done..
I will keep spending money in to the big hole.
Great vid, especially for non trades people. Done right, including showing the resolution to the problem can only serve to help reputable trades people.
Could be as simple as a screw or nail gone through a pipe when the boarding went down over the main beams.
This is one of the best videos you have done pls do more like this you get paid thecustomer is happy the prob get sorted truly shows your years of exsperianced all come to in to play and your quality from following you for years is second to none thank you all adds to knowledge base thank do more like this please
Is there any update how things turned up?
lovely, with the floor vents under the extention you should have vents because if you haven't moisture can't escape and joists can be damaged with that. Check under the gravel to see if there is any under it. That's what happened with my house. They fitted new slabs on top of old ones and buried all the vents at the rear of the house. Felt with you regarding trademen.
I had a situation on a boiler after >13 years of use which is good, the rear of the heat exchanger was pressed against rubber ring seals 4 in oil & just one of them was leaking not enough to pinpoint because it was over time it was drying off before it was going to be noticed, anyway I carry spares, so I asked Viessmann to change the heat exchanger over to get better hot warer flow, then when removing it off noticed it was leaking because sure rubber O ring seals do fail after 13 Years, I'm very pleased with Viessmann great combination Boilers ❤👍
It's a pitty you cannot isolate boiler, apply external pressure say 1.5bar then meter that to see if the radiators or pipes are at fault, you could do the same say with the boiler, not operating just to see if the say main heat exchanger in the boiler thats got a pinhole
27:00 fill the system with some bubble bath and just wait till you have a bubble room given how much it's leaking! :)
my best advise would be to take out a british gas contract (make sure its a call out fee/no annual service type contract as this means they won't come out and do a "first visit/inspection") then after about 2 weeks call them out, and their have to repair under terms and conditions as they are regulated by the FCA.
shocking advice basically shafting the trades person ! how about accept that you have a problem and pay for it out of your own pocket because guess what its yours . big company or not its a bad attitude to conduct yourself like that.
Not sure if it was mentioned, but the thermostat he had sticking out of the wall which looks like a TRV is a RTL (Return Temperature Limiter) these are used to fit UFH off the existing radiator circuit, so no manifold as such and just relies on the system pump of the boiler for circulation same as the radiators
Another possibility in my experience (although not so in this case) is a leaking heat exchanger on a condensing boiler where you don't see the leak until you check the condense outlet because the leak can be internal and the water finds it's way into the condensate system.
I've also come across a leaking heat exchanger on a non condensing boiler that was leaking when the boiler was running and water was spraying into the combustion area and then evaporating creating steam that came out via the flue.
dealing with plumbers is never good, great video roger
One of the best video's yet !! Very enjoyable hope it works out the man horrible situation to be in
Fitting air bricks when the external ground level is so high could allow surface water to enter the under-building - or form a gravel drainage channel at wall base off to suitable outfall (a hit & miss hopper at a downpipe?)
Which floor in the house had to be dug up? Was it the bedroom, bathroom or the foyer area in front of the cupboard where the boiler is?
Good luck with that Roger, your client is looking at several days of disconnecting and isolating bits of the system so seperate pressure tests can be carried out. Then when we have worked out what is leaking we can remedy and then decide weather to re-pipe up the worst of the spiders nest of push fit nonsense. personally I would leave the boilers in as long as they are in decent nick, but those red Calafi? EVs don't last long, mind you they are only a hundred quid all in. Your client is looking at a fair amount of disruption just to find the problem, but when found probably an easy fix.
all the best from J & H Builders
if Canadian building trades are universally polite, efficient and effective - how did that Mike Holmes make a living correcting all the disasters he found? In most programmes he virtually demolished the addition, roof, etc to put it right!
exactly ! I don't know about the U.K. but as an immigrant from the Netherlands my experience with Canadian trades people do not match that glowing review. I wouldn't say they try to rip you off but they are often not very reliable in the sense of showing up and do the work timely.
If he hadn’t come across Skill builder, I would suggest doing away with all the underfloor stuff, drain it down, detach everything and forget it was ever there! Then create a new heating system above the floor boards.
It means pipes would have to be surface mounted, but there are ways of hiding that.
Never have to worry about underfloor leaks again!
Here in the states we have shark bite fittings and push fittings which should never be used inside of a wall or cavity because the only thing preventing the leak is an o-ring.
Good video learnt loads yep a compressor will cause a leak to whistle if the pipes are dry but i never thought to use aromatics, a brilliant idea..
I don't trust the Push to Connect fittings. They will eventually fail because the O ring is vulnerable. I recommend cinch fittings. They are cheap and very reliable. I use a Ryobi power cinch tool that makes a perfect cinch and shows a green or red light to verify it is complete. It is made for pex piping, which is great material.