Artificial Afterlives
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- For as long as we have had history and likely before, people have contemplated a life after this one, but might we one day create artificial afterlives? And if so, will we create heavens or hells?
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Credits:
Artificial Afterlives
Science & Futurism with Isaac Arthur
Episode 399, June 15, 2023
Written, Produced & Narrated by Isaac Arthur
Editors:
Dillon Olander
Graphics by:
Jeremy Jozwik
Ken York
Music Courtesy of
Markus Junnikkala, "Plotting a Course", "We Roam the Stars"
Stellardrone, "Red Giant", "Between the Rings"
Miguel Johsnon, "Far From Home", "So Many Stars"
Aerium, "Fifth Star of Aldebaran"
Reminds me of Blindsight: where the protagonist goes to visit his mother in the digital afterlife. It had been years of being able to do whatever she wanted and not care about her appearance, so she appeared as some sort of abstract series of shapes. It took a few moments for her to actually be able to communicate properly with him due to how long it had been without human interaction (by her own choice).
I can totally see that happening, afterlife or no. Being able to focus on your hobbies 24/7 with no connection to the outside world whatsoever would drive anyone a little insane, no matter how introverted they claimed to be.
It was partially inspired by that interaction in blindsight, and some other novels, it's a compelling thread because we can understand the lure of it so easily..
@@isaacarthurSFIA Ah, glad to hear we immediately shared that train of thought, hehe! I re-read both Blindsight and Echopraxia recently and there are great ideas in the series that have molded a lot of my tastes for speculative science-fiction in the past few years.
I agree that it is a very compelling idea, if somewhat abstract to us in the here and now. A life without work is a completely foreign idea to most of us - at least one without work before retirement (and even after retirement for some of us).
I was unemployed for a short stint during COVID and the shame of being jobless (even if it wasn't my fault) was largely overridden by a massive lack of a sense of purpose. A gaping hole so large that even reading and hobbies fell away before that great void. If anything, my hope is that a future that complex will allow us to be able to offer to work in any industry we want from within our virtual space - if only to stave off that sense of futility of action.
then just stimulate a world based in real life so they still have human interaction whilst in the digital afterlife?
@@神林しマイケル That sounds like a simple solution, but that kind of defeats the purpose though - Blindsight made it excruciatingly clear that this was a choice the protagonist's mother made of her own volition, not because she was ill or anything.
Naturally, an afterlife for him would have been vastly different from the afterlife his mother envisioned.
Though I would be remiss to forget mentioning that humankind in the Blindsight universe is all kinds of messed up socially. Whenever the protagonist and his father went to visit, both he and his father had to pump themselves full of oxytocin - as if they would forget their attachment to her otherwise. Scary stuff.
@@DeltafangEX What was the point of seeing her anyway? Living that sort of existence it doesn't sound like she would've even felt like their mother anymore. Hell even if you've maintained your human form, if you've spent a century living as a hedonistic teenager you're probably not going to act or think much like a wise and mature mother figure much. They might as well have consulted with an AI trained to emulate her when she was still like that - would've been a closer match to her motherly identity than what she likely was by that point. Which of course raises its own set of questions. 😅
If I was put into an artificial afterlife I would spend a few days marathoning your videos
Perhaps you already are..........
@@Warp10x Bingo!
before collecting my series of doctorates
A few days? Just join the content with your memory-bank.
Aka, flip the switch, and you got it all upstairs. 🤔😇
@@innocentbystander3317 Enjoying it the long way is it's own worthwhile endeavour.
In the eclipse phase rpg i ran, i had the central antagonist be an expansionist seed AI that wanted to protect all life by killing it, uploading it into its virtual afterlife, and managing the physical universe better as the only entity left. Everyone who couldnt handle her as God lived in ignorance of their fate, with her crafting a matrix style reality for them. She was described as a hungry heaven.
Well, as long as they don't charge us monthly fees or use us for experiments when we run out of money, artificial afterlives do sound pretty fun.
You forgot micro payments.
They might have a free version and a subscription one, makes one wonder what the differences would be :)
With how many ads we have to see all the time, if this life is an afterlife one, I know I was as broke before as I am now .😂
"This afterlife is brought to you by RAID Shadow Legends!" 😅
@@isaacarthurSFIA Ads in your dreaaaams
"Nursery Universes", or the concept of them rather, has been something I've been suggesting for *years* , ever since I first learned about the ancestor simulation hypothesis.
I think it would be an effective tool today, let alone in a future where true hardship is even less common.
I have a feeling that we are in a nursery universe right now.
I know that I forgot to remember
What's a nursery universe? Google's got nothing for me.
@@SudoBurger It's too much to type out. Watch the video.
@@SudoBurger Isaac Arthur has a good one one TH-cam explaining.
The PC game Soma touches these concepts amazingly well, highly recommend everyone to play it or watch a let's play of it.
The thing that made that bad for me was that the PC was an idiot. He goes through it HOW many times, is explicitly told each time is a copy, not a transfer, and even at the end he still doesn't understand?
@@colinsmith1495 or because the main character knows but wants to avoid the truth too hard because it hurts him
@@colinsmith1495i think he understands, just not accepting it. Like everyone knows that all living organisms are mortal, but it's another thing to accept the fact that you too will die at some point. Most people prefer just not thinking about it.
Also the character may be written like that in order to show the player that every copy feels and consider itself as alive and real as original person.
@@colinsmith1495I wondered while playing that if we were meant to get the impression that the original Simon Jarrett’s brain injury combined with the limitations of the technology used to scan and resurrect him had resulted in some degree of cognitive impairment. Almost all of the copies we encounter in the game seem to have very limited self awareness and seem incapable of recognising that they aren’t human.
This major issue I have in 99% of scifi, be it digital transfer. Transporters for Star Trek, cloning. Or a wide variety of other things similar, they often gloss over the consciousness of the person.
Yeah. Is it you, or just an identical copy?
That’s really important, because the benign nature of the tech relies on a base “soul”, as it were.
If mind upload creates an identical copy, then you were just murdered.
to be fair, Trek and a lot of other shows with that sort of tech have an episode in a later season contemplating that sort of issue, but yeah, for most it's a convenient plot device to cut down on SFX costs or allow rapid transport to help keep pace and tension high.
Yes there are two problems. First is the assumption that it is possible to copy a human consciousness into an artificial device. Effectively speaking there isn’t the slightest hint that can be done, or how, so we are just assuming that can be done. (Assume you are on a desert island. Assume a crate of canned food washes ashore. How do you get into the food? Answer; I assume I have a can opener.) In the Amazon series on this subject, Upload, it appears that the problem is solved by using a laser that scans your brain at the molecular level and vaporizes your head leader by layer. The information is somehow used to run a software program in virtual reality that thinks it is you. You are now a headless corpse.
Bigger question is how a simulation of you, is actually you. The present you is dead, it’s just a simulation on that device. Why would anyone care about creating a copy of themselves that will live indefinitely, unless their ego is so big they think humanity will be ever so grateful there is a copy of them out there. (Perhaps the motivation of the billionaire tech moguls who are hoping this trans-humanism is doable).
At one point Arthur touches on the speculation that perhaps we all have souls in the theological sense, and the soul will migrate with your upload so it is more than a copy. Of course a soul means you are already immortal, and therefore you actually do have a can opener, so why bother uploading yourself?
If consciousness emerges from the structure (brain) then it's palatable
@@Veganoto The problem is you are making a copy of the structure in these cases and not preserving the original structure.
When I was a kid my parents told me in heaven everyone stood in a circle around God and sang hymns about how great he was for eternity and that terrified me almost as much as the lake of fire. I can't think of any scenario that I'd be happy repeating ad nauseum for all time but if I were to craft one I think my starting point would involve pizza and maidens.
Mine involves peanut butter and sunsets. I would get tired of peanut butter if I ate if every meal. But I find I can eat it every day. I don't care to watch a sunset every day, but I like to repeat the experience of watching a sunset and a night sky, and I think those can be repeated indefinitely as long as there is enough in between to avoid monotony.
I personally think one of the more usual ones would be essentially world-hopping to the person in the afterlife. You die in one world, and then respawn in the next one and experience that world instead. I imagine people would customize this to high degree in order to meet their preference, with some choosing essentially a never-ending isekai adventure powerfantasy where they keep collecting power while the challenges keep getting stronger, while others might choose a more traditional "reincarnate and have a fresh start" sort of thing.
I remember a short story about someone who is in an digital afterlife, and can stay there as long as it's paid. Eventually, the money dwindles and he's forced to take a job or have final death. He chooses to take a job, and he becomes a spamfilter, reading mails and sorting them. Can't remember who wrote it though... can't find the story anymore.
I don't know man a lot of people rag on this existence as being an imperfect hellscape but if i were to sit down with pen and paper i seriously doubt i could create something better than this thing we call reality
Well said, the devil tends to be in the details and its much easier to imagine perfection than to create a system that works decently-well, or even decently-badly. Most utopian settings in fiction I've read usually horrified me when I tried to contemplate how they made it happen or kept it that way. For my part I'm quite fond of this reality :)
@@isaacarthurSFIA exactly. A system that functions AT ALL, and accommodates billions if not trillions of organisms, as well as an immense timescale of self sustainability, is an amazing accomplishment... Double so if it truly is a blind unguided system as many believe.
I mean I can. Just remove a lot of negatives and things would improve drastically. Get rid of diseases, health problems and people you don't like. For me at least that would make the world a thousand times better.
Oh Iain M. Is grinning from his own personal heaven right now, just a little surface detail.
He did tend to discuss artificial afterlvies in a lot of the culture books.
Rather than digital afterlives I think people would figure out ways to live virtual simulations at higher speeds so they can essentially have more hours in a day.
About the moving cities episode idea, I think the easiest way to build one would be constructing an artificial floating island and not anchor it in the seabed. This should allow for following preferred climate conditions and avoiding storms, though if winds and currents are too strong and push it too close to a shore the whole city might be destroyed.
So, a cruise ship?
Does anyone else think that our afterlives might end up resembling a videogame, whether it's the peace, tranquility, and stimulating challenges of Minecraft, or the sheer struggle to survive, let alone thrive, in Don't Starve?
Surface Detail, by Banks, is an excellent novel.
As a coroner I have spent 10 years working with the dead and the loved ones they leave behind. The death industry is very slow to change especially since culture and religion are intertwined with it. I look forward to a future like this even if I will probably never benefit from it. It gives us a lot to think about as how it would be regulated. The Chronicles of Ethan by John L. Monk is based on the idea of an artificial afterlife and since I read the series I have often pondered on the possible realities we could create for ourselves.
Indeed, I also often wonder how these afterlives would be regulated. I think it says a lot about human nature that a lot of religions detail some form of heavenly "bureaucracy" - literally in the case of Chinese mysticism.
You could even argue if such an "escape" from society and culture at large would even be encouraged, if allowed at all to anyone without special privileges. I say that because significant life extension technology should exist before complete digitization of consciousness is even possible (theoretically at least). But I suppose that might be a moot point overall with either a post-scarcity society, or at least one with strong enough AGI that no one really needs to work that much anymore. Any job still left over that would require human intervention would presumably still be easily doable from your place in that afterlife server. "Nothing is certain but death and taxes", only death is now an option while the taxes remain.
That's somewhat brought up in a good series I read nearly a decade ago at this point: "The Quantum Thief" series by Hannu Rajaniemi (specifically the eponymous first book). On Mars, they have a culture where people use their "time" as the main currency. When you run out of time, your mind is put to work in machines that build and maintain infrastructure for an equal amount of time as you had in the last cycle. Your friends and family treat it like a combination of death and a retirement. You don't have to die, but you still have to pay your taxes. Not sure I prefer the idea of 40-100 years on, 40-100 years off instead of a 40-hour workweek, to be honest.
As for your book reference, I actually hadn't heard of The Chronicles of Ethan, but I will definitely give it a look! I've become a big fan of progfantasy and LitRPG in the past few years, so its always great to have more material to devour.
Individuals get their own personal afterlife, but can visit other peoples; the equivalent of having your own room in your home. You can leave your room to interact with family, friends and guests; or leave your home to enter public heaven.
Instances.
What of those that walk the middle road?
@@nureyevhaas1299
What middle road? I kinda figured alternating between spending time socializing with people and in your personal realm would be the middle road. The extreme roads would be only spending time with others or only living inside your personal realm.
@MrNote-lz7lh you've got the right idea. A healthy mix of the living, the dead, and the living dead.
I really enjoy your ability to dig deep into and adroitly handle such complex topics with philosophical and religious implications.
I learn something and get quite the mental buzz hearing them explained so well.
Excellent work Isaac.
Right... 👍
This series of videos you mention at the beginning starting with The Omega Point and ending with this video are some of my favorites you’ve done! I really enjoy your more esoteric and philosophical topics.
Excellent coverage, and as usual incredibly respectful to both religious and philosophical angles. Aside from the topics you cover this is a defining feature of your channel that I've not really found anywhere: The willingness to discuss and cover things in a way that is enlightening rather than lecturing.
(It says a lot about the topic that education's still on the backburner since it couldn't meet those requirements 😂)
Agreed I am not a fan of religious people being made unwelcome in the scientific community
@@lucasgibbs4879 Maybe it's because there's an incentive to do, like with medicine, to purposefully disregard the actual science and just give [insert being of worship here] all the credit? Or how all over religious radio networks, they'll eventually try to pretend that [something something quantum mechanics something something] scientifically proves their religious belief? Science has the credibility religion lacks, and so science gets used like a wing-man. Religion makes all these promises it has no intention of keeping, and when it is eventually achieved through science the religion then incorporates it and pretends to have led to it.
So, maybe if religious people actually tended to care about science itself, instead of just as a tool to grant false credibility, they wouldn't be made unwelcome?
_You come to my planet with friction and strife, you somehow believe that I could flee the afterlife?_
Where does this quote come from? Is it even a quote? :)
So...what is your planet anyway?
@@tamtam-bx5ng It's from If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device, a series of videos set in the Warhammer 40k setting. This is quoting the Mechanicus Lord of Mars during what is effectively an Epic Rap Battle for diplomacy.
@@dqakanic As a followup: _It's a favor I seek, not some sort of brawl; were it not for my Lord, I'd not be here at all._
Surface Detail, by Iain M. Banks, is an absolutely fantastic novel dealing with simulated afterlives in a super-advanced civilization!
Came here to write that too. Surface detail goes really into detail what it means to go through a digital hell. Really recommend it.
Isaac with the subtle 40k Lore concerning the Eldar Infinity Circuit
What a coincidence, i started my reread of Dodge in Hell this week and just got to the chapter where Sophia gives the DB write permission
Surprisingly perhaps, considering I'm a Stephenson fan, I've never actually read it. Good book?
@@isaacarthurSFIA It's a very divisive title among the fanbase. The first half of the book establishes the process by which an artificial afterlife is instituted and deployed, and is largely entertaining, classic Stephenson fodder. The second half delves into what the beings within the construct actually make of it, and takes the form of a somewhat Tolkienesque adventure epic. I found the book very thought provoking and enjoyed it, but many others seem to have a really visceral dislike of the second half.
@@jeremymtc Yeah Hamilton did something similar with his void series, and Reynolds does a bit of it with house of Suns, like they want to write fantasy novel but they're genre is scifi so they feel obliged to splice one in :) Tends to be a bit of mixed success at best in my experience. I'm always a bit surprised how much his work varies from Snow Crash, which was my first and favorite book by him.
@@isaacarthurSFIA Yes, the fantasy aspects are certainly kind of an indulgence on Stephenson's part, and it does show as you read the book. Given that you're already conversant with most of the concepts of artificial afterlife contained in Fall (your video covered just about every plot point on the subject in the book), I'd really only recommend reading it as a bookend to the Cryptonomicon/Baroque Cycle/Reamde arc, as it does wrap up the stories of some of the characters and bloodlines of those books.
One of the issues with infinite or near infinite experiences is that strange things come up. For example you said something like "I feel like I would have come up with something better than this for an afterlife" but as you said you will eventually experience everything, including being Isaac Arthur the entertainer of millions.
Maybe quantum mechanics is an example of memor saving. The entire universe doesnt have to be simulated either, like draw distance in a video game. Also that assumes the 'creators' universe follows the same rules as what they programmed into ours.
I read a story years ago about the last civilization in the universe, billions and billions of years into the future when there was just a cold death for everything… they uploaded themselves to their digital machines and set the passage of time within their digital world to be so fast that they gave themselves trillions of years to exist…
Sounds like Isaac's civilizations at the end of time series.
‘The Last Question’ By Asimov?
Great episode, it really puts in perspective my virtual reality worlds ideas, something needs to keep them running, maybe our solar system will be harvested to fuel some alien civilizations afterlife machine
Convenient reply for easy reference? 🤔
Maybe..
Isaac your voice, your speech sounds amazing! Congratulations on your surgery being a huge success, you & the your Mrs must be over the Moon with joy with this outcome! I am so happy for you both 😄
The idea that everybody will eventually be the same person, given enough time to accumulate experience, is an interesting one. It reminds me a bit the reason why I prefer videogames with character classes and races instead of those without such things. In a videogame experiences are way more limited than in real (?) life and after some point all characters do end up too similar to each other if they can achieve the same list of powers.
I am not sure if we must consider the experience possible "finite", necessarily. Perhaps even if that is the case we can still not end up with the same person repeated endless. Because memory is not just the pieces you have, it is also the way you organize your pieces of past experience. The hierarchy you stablish, between the pieces. Which is presumably changeable.
Alright! Let's go full "eternity mode". We all have experienced all the possible experiences, enough times to see them for all their possible angles. And we have minds that can and do handle all that information without effort. Still, we are not in any give instant all the same person.
Perhaps there is a limited number of "persons" we can be, and we all have passed through all those persons. But the way I organize and hierarchise my memories in this instant is no identical to the way the majority of people organize and hierarchise their memories. Perhaps I will became tomorrow who you are today, and a trillion people is doing the exact same change in the exact same time I am doing it. Still, change is taking place. And there is difference between who I am now and who I will be tomorrow.
If those changes and differences remain meaningful or not, given the circumstances of infinite repetition, is arguable. However, that is my point: it is arguable.
The change between a instant and the next under those circumstances is not, necessarily, meaningless. We will have to go there, and judge the matter by ourselves, as beings of super-human intelligence and memory capacity, before we can make the judgement.
I think human minds can continue indefinitely, because memories are more a network of associations than a recording. The brain is constantly forming new connections and pruning old ones, while its net complexity remains about the same. So around the 1000-year mark, you might not remember anything about your childhood or young adulthood, although the pathways and skills developed then are foundational to who you are now.
Also, a virtual brain isn't confined to the limits of a human skull, so I guess it could continue to form new connections, while only trimming those that are actively counterproductive.
human motivation never cease to amaze me. If enough people with computer powered brains wanted to relive life, Best to believe the focus would be a cyborg type body that can feel, have senses, repairable, that can down /upload brains to the body. which would remain a young age of 20 to 25 with spiderman type abilities.
Isaac Arthur in the footsteps of Fjodorov, Teilhard, Tipler and Dyson.
So, you hit two of my "favorites" in the first bit, both coming from Neuromancer by William Gibson. The concept of saving an expert's brain in box and essentially putting them into eternal servitude is terrifying, but maybe the leapfrogging through time of the ludicrously wealthy is actually far scarier. Gibson should have marketed those books as horror, lol.
The concept of 'hell' is just as terrifying, and just as fictional, and impossible. Neuromancer is a great piece of fantasy literature, but it's concepts are just as ridiculous and PROVEN FALSE as Dune's 'genetic memory' (Dune being my favorite fiction book of all time).
@@kennethc2466 what do you mean proven false? That doesn't even make sense. I mean, no, the Matrix is unlikely, but it's not "false" because it can't be "true." Its an idea that, while implausible, is possible. We don't actually know if a person's brain can be digitized. Right now its implausible, but it's no more impossible than the Star Trek tricorder, which is now just an advanced smartphone. That idea was impossible in the 60s and is now basically assumed to be the next thing. No genetic memory (nor transporter beams to continue with the Trek analogy) are not possible by our understanding of how memories work, but the actual story has truths about the nature of power among many other things that transcend the fiction to give us a very real story about the dynamics of power, politics, and religion.
@@jasonGamesMaster Genetic memory and 'brain uploading' is PROVEN FALSE. A 'brain in a jar' is PROVEN FALSE.
You rely on arguments from ignorance (a logical fallacy), while ignoring the actual science.
"We don't actually know if a person's brain can be digitized"
Even if it could, you would BE DEAD along with your biological body, because THAT IS YOU. It could NEVER be YOUR 'afterlife'.
Why are you ignoring my main point?
Your consciousness is NOT a transferable 'code', it is PURELY biological.
PS, your brain is NOT digital, nor ever could function as it. I can tell you're young, so I implore you to read MORE SCIENCE, and less fantasy fiction...before you speak about reality as if it's fiction.
"transcend the fiction to give us a very real story about the dynamics of power, politics, and religion."
If you cared about those things first and foremost, then you'd read peer-reviewed sociology, political science, etc...and not OLD fantasy fiction.
@@jasonGamesMaster
You don't even need to digitize a brain to put them into a simulated hell or any other simulation. Just put their brains in a nutrients jar that keeps it alive and hook it up to whatever FDVR system you have.
You got a good shoutout on Wendover’s latest video about Nebula. I vaguely recall you saying your video was the first on Nebula, but it’s still a little surprising you were the first as opposed to one of the biggest channels. Though I don’t know how the behind the scenes stuff actually went down of course.
Probably one of the few channels that could discuss something as emotionally charged as the concept of an afterlife and present it as a realistic scenario without in turn taking a hard stance for or against the actual idea of one. It's also amusing at the very end that you acknowledge a very obvious thing people would want in their paradisal afterlife while managing to avoid going into any detail.
I would like to go to the Afterlive and ask for a shot of vodka on the rocks, lime juice, ginger beer and a splash of love.
Thoughts of the game "SOMA" come to mind. Though (major spoilers) that's more of an upload. They were already "dead" for a long time. Just awaiting an escape from their nightmarish reality. Only to turn out that it was "copy-paste" and not the (much more preferable) "cut-and-paste".
Happy summer, and happy Arthur’s day!
Like all of Iain M Banks' books, 'Surface Detail' is amazing. He even wrote about virtual afterlives in 'Feersum Endjinn'
Love Surface Detail
A "moble city on tracks"?
There's a concept I NEVER would have thought of!
Can't wait for that episode, going to be EPIC!👍🏿🥂🏆😁
There was one in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy (I can't recall which -- either Green Mars or Blue Mars) and the pseudo-sequel, 2312. Both featured a city on Mercury that had to remain on the terminator (i.e., right at dawn on a planet with a 59 "day" rotation period) to avoid excessive heat or cold. It followed tracks that wrapped around the whole planet.
I'm also looking forward to the episode!
Mortal engines is a fiction book series based on it - the downside is it sacrifices realism for the steampunk vibe, it's a great read though
27:30 don’t think you can sneak Moghgwyn Palace in here without notice 🤣
Happy Arthursday!
Great episode with a wide view.
My personal reason to create a simulation might be morality, especially when taking the consequentialist view. You simulate a virtual universe with entities that possibly suffer less than those in your level. You see their interactions and use that to make decisions at your level. Decisions which are presumably leading to the best consequence.
The visual aspect of this video was truly superb, I sometimes take for granted how it compliments the informative content.
It is kinda funny, how extremely careful Sir Isaac Arthur is, whenever he chooses to speak about topics that might be related to religion, politics, etc. 😅 But it seems to me that this audience - slowly but certainly growing towards the 1M subscribers milestone - is mature enough to treat the others with respect, regardless of religious differences. Good for us 😇 Thanks for the upload! Stay safe and have a great week, everyone 🍀
I find this episode very relaxing. I'd never be everyone though. You just always keep a still copy of the original you brain for comparison to prevent huge random personality drift.
There is only one afterlife with two options, one is through Him and one away from Him.
Whether or not an infinite number of experiences is possible and, if not, - just how long such a list could be sort of hinges on how many different types and variations of sense organs exist, and/or could be artificially reproduced via technology. One could experience life of a bacterial colony in a Methane lake on Titan (assuming bacteria have experiences), a sea horse living its life on a coral reef, or an elephant in the Indian jungle. It is entirely possible that one will eventually get sick and tired of positive or neutral experiences and would want to (as a sea horse) experience being consumed by thousands of different sea creatures or succumbing to thousands of viral, fungal and bacterial infections. Then there's the matter of memory, and just how many of such experiences could actually be remembered vividly enough so as not to be curious about them again.
I often wonder about this, as nearing my 50th birthday I often feel tired of experience itself, only feeling content shortly before falling asleep. But part of me does realise that this isn't just due to Treatment Resistant Depression, or age affecting the state of my neurons, but also due to my experiences as a human being incredibly limited. Worse yet, they aren't just limited by my belonging to the Homo genus, but by my employment, habitation and generally economical situation not to mention my sex, gender and sexual orientation. I really don't see a definitive answer to whether a situation in which one gets so tired of existing that he willingly decides to check whether or not there is a "more traditional afterlife" is actually feasible when you have limited capacity for remembering, and at the same time - any conceivable experience available to you via technology.
The popular theory for the simulation hypothesis is that this universe could be used for ancestor simulations for an advanced species to learn about their past. I think that if there's an advanced civilization that is technologically advanced enough to create a simulated universe, then they have likely overcome death as well. Or, they may be an entirely non-corporeal existence to begin with. If that's the case, then this simulated universe could just be used as entertainment that breaks the monotony of eternal existence. They could insert themselves into a random individual and experience a whole lifetime in the world through that individual's point-of-view. Of course, knowledge of the outside reality would spoil the experience, so it's shut off while inside the simulation. After a lifetime, they go back to their immortal reality with the experience they had from the simulation. It would be the same as when we go to watch a movie at a theater.
Yes! I've been waiting for this one
inb4 the comments mentioning THAT Black Mirror episode. Also, since some of the recent videos on this channel mentioned w40k, the Eldar preserve their souls in 'infinity circuits', which are basically an artificial afterlife too. See also the show Caprica and game Soma.
The Empire of mankind mind is kept alive, by the sacrifice of thousands of psyker each day.
Interesting you mentioned Caprica. Been looking for that show..
I remember even D'Anna (?) mentioning visions between reincarnation. Maybe a code-error where she was temporarily connecting to the local Hybrid, or something else? The one true God might know... 😂
"Caprica" YES! I have not thought about it in years. Thx!
Haha I was searching all over for a mention of San Junipero
This is actually pretty cool!!! You know you're dying so you upload your consciousness to the metaverse ahead of time!
2:30, storage/memory is not necessary for experience, at least not that much of it. You mostly need a processing system that can keep up with its environment (including and especially us) well enough to offer continuous "seamless" input for us and to handle our output (and us as output). Gaming is starting to lay out some of those through-put requirements.
the topic isaac arthur long waited for. He gave us all of our topics to wait out for his - well he said 'my turn' and went for it :) Well deserved.
I've always said if I was to have an artificial afterlife I would make it set in the Avatar the Last Airbender world.
bro same. kingdom hearts and pokemon are also acceptable
Warhammer 40k, welcome to a true hell lol
@@poolee77 HARD pass
Probably the Star Wars Galaxy or a Rdr2 old west type setting
I have literal nightmares about this. I'm a firm proponent of oblivion upon death, and an heartily looking forward to it.
Honestly we really shouldn't because we could die any day. Humans are mortal in the present. But I'm excited for the future generations of humans that will live forever.
@@cdemr Same.
Observe.
1. *Hits every key on piano* "Brain that knows everything from every angle".
2. *Hits leftmost to rightmost key in order* "Time added to brain".
3. *Plays 10 notes randomly evoking tune of sadness* "Sad soul within infinity."
4. *Plays same 10 notes evoking tune of happyness.* "Happy soul within infinity."
Even though I'm not using the concepts in it. This is definitely going to become fanfiction fuel. I'm trying to create a story that merges some of the concepts in your videos with Resident Evil. And I had an idea for a gardener ship for my story "Darwin's Casket". In the story I'm making, one of the core 5 protagonists in the series, Chris Redfield, wakes up on the gardener ship to find that its a hundred years after the world ended. The end came about because of an apocalyptic war between a newly sentient Megamycete mold pathogen and a WBE based AI of one of the early and most loved antagonists, Albert Wesker. The last thing he remembers is Ethan's death at the end of RE8. Because the original him messed with his own brain scans to make sure the new him didn't remember all the pain and suffering of the last 20 years of life on earth. His sister, Claire, spent a hundred years afraid of bringing him back, until an attempt to revive Ethan goes drastically wrong, causing Claire to catch the Megamycete mold infection. She cuts off her digital backup system so the next version of her doesn't remember the pain she's going through, (like brother like sister, sadly) and then collects as much data on her own infection as she can before venting the air out of the contaminated parts of the ship. The new incarnation of Claire wakes up fully herself and is able to deal with her fear of the process, and greenlights Chris being revived. Meanwhile the ship's doctors and scientists discover that the megamycete actually has other minds within it, and one of those is the original Claire. Her mind is very altered by the process, bringing some interesting questions about identity. And the concept is basically Chris exploring and learning about these concepts as he settles into his new life on the gardener ship.
Resident Evil is not a franchise that rewards humans drastically altering themselves or that rewards big changes in what it means to be human. They're very pessimistic about things like life extension and gene tailoring. So I like the idea of trying to push characters that have only seen the dark side of Futurism, into a world where they have to use these tools and techniques in order to survive. Every time a person in these games has tried to change who they are using genetic engineering in some form (usually in the form of a pathogen) its always been rewarded with a monsterous transformation. Some so much so that there's clearly nothing human left but a mind. Its often used as a metaphor for things like losing one's mind to greed or maintaining your pride at the cost of the people you're obligated to protect. I haven't gotten to RE7 and 8 yet. I'm seriously considering picking them up ahead of RE6 and without finishing the side games, as I feel like they're self contained enough as far as a whole story goes that I don't have to worry about having missed anything or being spoiled.
I love being able to put on your videos and get lost in them while getting things done. ❤
I like one in Complex Numbers' opera "We, 22nd Century", i recommend it to watch
Looks like TH-cam's scripts are blocking links again, but it easily to find here on TH-cam
Removing or resetting specific memories sounds like something we would come up with long before we can create artificial worlds, and I for one would love to be able to just flag some of them for deletion.
Just imagine being able to read your favourite books again for the first time!
It's hard enough looking through the 6.755^34 pictures on my hard drive to find the one I'm thinking of.
@@marshallodom1388In the future, super advanced memory indexing will be all the rage
I too would be excited but I would also be afraid of accidentally deleting something core to my identity. Same reason I would be almost entirely against altering my own past if that was possible
I don't think so. We would need to truly understand how the brain works to erase memories. While we would only need to hijack our senses to simulate worlds.
That first season of upload was great.
I think it is an interesting thought experiment, but my thought on this is you are basically giving a clone of you an afterlife. I never seen a good transfer of person to digital without making a copy
Yeah that one is always a problem, a backup 'me' is still valuable to me because it means someone is still around to do important things I cared about like the show or taking care of my wife and kids, but it really isn't me even if it's a genuine person with as much claim on being me as I have.
But it needn't necessarily be digital, we could probably find a way to constantly repair neurons and grow new ones, while syncing the sense organs into some elaborate VR, like NEO from he matrix or a brain in a jar. Or even run the VR on a neuron based computer interwoven into some expanding brain to cover new memories.
I will be surprised if the Necrodome from doctor Who and the afterlife from Upload don't get mentioned in this episode. They are both pretty interesting ideas for artificial afterlives. Also, it always blows my mind how this channel doesn't regularly get millions of views. This is easily the best channel on all of youtube
you can extend the interest of eternity a little by having you experience the same event from a different perspective or outlook, creating a different qualia to that experience. You can also consider temporary memory suppression, disallowing the memories of something to be retrieved so it can be experienced again.
Bro ive been waiting too long for this episode. Thank you! :)
This man is a content beast
San Junipero is all I can think of from the prompt "Artificial afterlife"
Well brother, you took it there. And it was EXCELLENT! 👍🏽👍🏽
18:47 Something like the Great Deceiver impressive but one can see that that isn't up to the same level? "Where is your glory? The Other was to bright to look upon, but I can see you with my natural eyes."
24:05
Even a 2D universe with hyperbolic space would be more efficient for data retrieval than a universe with 50 euclidian dimentions. This is because a circle with a certain radius in hyperbolic space grows exponentially at a certain point, rather than being bound by some polynomial.
There's a possible problem with artificial afterlives (or any virtual reality where mind uploading is permanent and irreversible) that I've never seen discussed, and that's the psychological phenomena of *_derealization._*
I've experienced it myself a few times -- many people do, if only briefly -- and it belongs in the same qualitative category as deja vu (the feeling that you've seen or done something before, even when you haven't), jamais vu (the feeling you have NOT seen something before, even when you have, e.g., feeling that an everyday word is strange and new), or presque vu (the feeling you're about to have some major insight, even when you're not, e.g., feeling that a word or name is on the tip of your tongue). Derealization is the feeling that the world around you isn't real, even when you know intellectually that it is. It's not a delusion, at least not as far as your conscious mind is concerned; it's more like a short circuit in your lizard brain that throws off your equilibrium and senses. The whole world looks and feels like it's hidden behind thick glass.
My question is: What happens when you _know_ the world around you is virtual? More than that, what happens when your senses experience "impossible" events that could only happen in VR, e.g., people or things appearing before you in less than an eyeblink? I think such events would _at the very best_ be incredibly jarring, and at worst, would trigger severe derealization episodes. It would throw your lizard brain out of whack.
This is why I think "dreamlike" VR is a very bad idea. In fact, I think many -- if not most! -- communities of uploaded minds would agree on some basic rules to make daily life as realistic as possible, purely for the sake of everyone's mental health. They might prohibit the alteration of "concrete" objects in the presence of another person, or encourage everyone to maintain the ability to feel everyday pain and discomfort, or even maintain the need to use the bathroom. Little things like that might keep you sane.
Thank you. Those were some excellent points I'm going to need to let percolate for a while. But it could be a major issue with some of these approaches
mindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipemindwipe
or atleast lock it away
I can't watch this video yet in its full glory because I'm at work, but in the Axiom Verge games a lot of the story has to do with simulated realities and even simulated afterlives - great stuff :)
Philip K. Dick wrote a book about artificial afterlife. The title is "Ubik," and it's fairly interesting.
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here,
it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened."
(Douglas Adams)
Wow that got really intense very quickly.
One of your better episodes. However, in the future, it might be possible to visit the original "Heaven" via (hyper?)spaceship and return from it…
Whether we could exist literally forever or not is not the most useful of questions. We certainly could fill thousands of years just by watching every television show ever made, analyzing and discussing and iterating on them, until by the end of the process we would have forgotten enough of where we started to be worth going back and starting again.
Excellent episode been waiting for your thoughts on this.
I feel like if a soul exists and afterlives exist, all the digitisation and other backup methods will indeed just make clones. But I'm also of the opinion that teleportation or brainscans are lethal and the person stepping out the other side is a copy. Which means that, if this sort of thing does happen, and there really is an afterlife, eventually there are going to be a lot of copies of individuals in it. Something like a regular digital backup could end up creating millions or billions of copies of someone.
Anyone who wants a really good dive into this in sci fi should read 'Surface detail,' by Ian M Banks.
Imagine how embarrassed you will be if, after struggling for trillions of years to maintain your life, committing atrocities in order to gain dwindling resources, and struggling desperately for every remaining watt, as the universe dwindles to the final Heat Death, you finally die.
Only to discover that there was an after life, and "Saint Peter" is not amused.
without continuity of conciousness uploading yourself to a afterlife computer or robot is just making a copy while your conciousness is still stuck in your dying body
Agreed. To me, uploading is really closer to making a digital descendant. Not a child, but a new sort of offspring. I don't find it particularly appealing. I have kids, so that might affect my feelings on that part.
I do personally believe in God and afterlife, but I don't think that's the core of it. I am pretty sure that I would feel the same if I were an atheist. I am me; a copy is not me.
Let's here it for isekai progression programs where we can level up to god tier! And then redo it again and again with fresh mods and new hot takes, like endless adventures of Skyrim!
There really is no way to know for sure if there are forces outside the universe that has rules that don't directly affect this physical universe. Meaning, even with a perfect copy of every atom of your body at the point just before you die (with the exception of fixing the reason you are dying), you can't know the unknowable and outer things beyond the physical universe. So perhaps it would appear that you live on, and the living on thing feels that it is the same as your old body, there may be a rule outside the universe that says, "nope, you died bro. You are moving on...". Since you can't interact with things outside the universe, you can't really know nor change it or how it works. I've often wondered if on Star Trek, the very first time someone transports with the transporters, do they just simply die? And then after that, an artificial version of them "lives" on? And then they are not dying on the next transport because they are already dead. Just a copy of a copy. This may be a concept of "soullessness " or "with a soul".
San Junipero would be pretty cool.
What dreams may come.. To go to a new world, and after return to the prime self, and once more dive into the unknown just to see how things turn out. Sometimes remember who you truly are, other times selectively forget certain aspects. If my wish could be granted.. it would be to always be curious. I love being human, even if I do not love my life, I appreciate every moment of it I am permitted to experience.
reminds me almost of altered carbon, a show that centers around people's consciousnesses being able to be "spun up" upon death or given a new "sleeve" or body.
Had the thought that if we are in a VR world the soul can be our mind that gets uploaded to real life, so the day we copy the mind and lose the soul "they" on the higher plane will only see it as an duplication error. The soul spins up to a body and your resent self is copied in the simulation until real death. Sounds like a cool story in my mind.
Interesting hypothesis
I've watched Vanilla Sky too.
Greeting! been looking forward to this topic for years
Hope you enjoyed it!
The TV show Caprica.
Lol for a moment I confused this with the anime Paprika (also awesome btw). 😅
If I recall that was, more using a program to create a digital "copy" of a person using all their "social" media.
A rare example of a spinoff that was better than the last season of the show it spun off from :) Not that it was all that great either IMHO tbh
Watching this episode made me realize that "eternal life" even in digital afterlife form would be a hell, non-literarily speaking. I may as well just enjoy this life now and hope for a real afterlife or wait until science comes up with something that could effectively mitigate all the problems. Mostly with how the mind deals with infinite time, similar experiences and memory storage. Definitely memory storage.
For all we know we have an advanced self ‘out there’ somewhere. This is a download with suppressed memories.
Always bringing interesting and mindblowing concepts and content👏👏👏God bless 🙏
Thank you 🙌
Interestingly enough there would also almost definitely need to be a one to one reproduction rate. That's an issue that's overlooked because people think it's in the wings but it's more important than many other details.
Maintaining a stable population should be trivial. Especially for the uploaded where you generate minds on the timescale of seconds, but artificial wombs & AI education(if u can't find teachers/caretakers) works for squishies.
@@virutech32 should be trivial but it wouldn't be. Reproduction would be an issue if people could experience no contact sexual euphoria in a simulation. The population would need to be stable in order to produce the resources needed to achieve their utopia... Even a simulated one
I rather think that at some point we would abandon the "fiction" of separate individuals (it's a reality here, but a fiction in digital worlds/maybe also future reality), and transition to a "sea of thought" model of some kind.
You'll have personal AIs recording your whole life as it's training data set so when you die, what appears to everyone else is chat bot with your exact personality traits, and they'll have conversations with "you" through a picture frame on the shelf, until you have a big argument and they throw your consciousness into the digital soup of the collective hivemind.
I love these topics
There's a hilarious dystopian comedy on this very topic, called "Upload".
Thank God, this is just a fantasy, because the truth of an artificial after life would be hell, It will be the worst kind of hell.