God never gave you authority to preach this false doctrine. You are 100% wrong. Instruments aren’t Judaism. Judaism is the keeping of the law of Moses which was fulfilled in Christ. The musicians weren’t instituted until after David which is not the law of Moses. Christ didn’t fulfill all of the prophets yet just the law. Ephesians 5:19 is saying to sing to yourself in your heart for the Lord. He is not telling you to sing out loud but in your mind to keep you focused on the Lord’s work. And this doesn’t mean you can’t use instruments and sing at all because if that was the case there is a lot of things we can’t do that we do that’s not in the NT. Verse 19 says be not drunk with excess of wine, does that mean he’s commanding us that we must drink wine just not too much? No, he’s saying if we do drink then not to drink too much. The Lord commands us to be perfect in our works he could care less about an instrument. He said as long as we stay away from blood, fornication, idolatry, and things strangled then we are good, he said nothing about music. The scripture states where there is no law there is no sin so stop adding to the scriptures. Preach the gospel and nothing else because we can read for ourselves the Holy Spirit teaches us all things we don’t need another false teacher. Playing instruments for the Lord has always been and will always be of the Lord. David played the harp to get rid of evil spirits and you’re telling me he said stop doing that? You’re a proud man, stand down or be humbled by the Lord.
"Instruments aren't Judaism" - Moses commanded the use of a trumpet during the worship of Yahweh (Num 10:8-10). "Judaism is keeping the law of Moses" - Judaism is keeping the law and prophets. That's what Christ fulfilled (Matt 5:17). "Christ didn't fulfill all of the prophets yet just the law" - Revelation clearly says that at the blowing of the seventh trumpet, the words of God spoken by his prophets will be fulfilled. (Rev 10:7). The seventh trumpet blew as a sign of Jesus being established on his throne at the destruction of Jerusalem (Or Rome depending on your view of Revelation). In a sense, all of the promises of God have found their "Yes" in Christ. We have every spiritual blessing in Christ. "Ephesians 5:19 is saying to sing to yourself in your heart for the Lord" - If that is true, why does it use the words, "Addressing one another" as it talks about our singing. While we sing to one another, we are commanded also to "make a melody in our heart." The melody we are told to have is not a melody created with our hands or feet, but with our hearts. As the vocal chords vibrate, our hearts beat and our souls cry out with praise and joy over what God has done for us. This is intended to be heard by our brothers and sisters. "This does not mean you can't use instruments and sing at all because if that is the case there is a lot of things we can't do that we do that's not in the New Testament." You can interpret this however you would like, but I feel we honor God most by worshipping him with the simple methods he has outlined in his word throughout the New Testament. The instruments of the Old Testament were a shadow, representing the heart believers would have in the future, under the New Covenant. The beautiful music of the Old Testament represents the beautiful music God hears within us who love and adore him as we sing praise. If you feel God is most honored with musical instruments being played, that's fine. You have the freedom to believe what you want. However, I see no scriptures to justify your point of view in the New Testament. The only scriptures you have to point to are found in the Old Testament where they worshipped a physical temple with physical sacrifices to atone for their own sin. The music was played in conjunction with those sacrificial offerings. "The Lord commands us to be perfect in our works he could care less about an instrument. He said as long as we stay away from blood, fornication, idolatry, and things strangled then we are good, he said nothing about music... Where there is no law there is no sin so stop adding to the scriptures" - We add to scriptures by restricting where God has not restricted and by promoting where God has not promoted. The argument, "God didn't say not to" is flawed because it has no end. It doesn't take much to move from there to complete apostacy. God didn't say not to eat cheeseburgers and coke during the Lord's Supper. I know that's a ridiculous example, but it's true. We can come up with all kinds of things to add to our worship that God didn't tell us not to do. At some point, it is no longer about worshipping God. It's about doing what we enjoy and worshipping a God we create in our minds. I would remind you that the Christians in the New Testament had a traditional way of worshipping that was closer to synagogue worship than temple worship. Should we ignore those traditions and replace them with our own? Notice that Paul commended the Corinthians for keeping the traditions he set in order (1 Corinthians 11:2). I don't want to be found guilty of making up laws that God did not make. That's why I worded everything the way I did. The sin is not found in playing musical instruments. The sin is found in the pride of worshipping God however we want to and acting like it pleases him. Today, we see the extent to which men take this "liberty." Worship is more a concert for entertainment than a worship for God. "Preach the gospel and nothing else" - I preach the gospel. In every sermon I try to make it clear that we are not saved because we do all the right things, but we want to do all the right things because God saved us. If I am confined to preaching the gospel only, I will neglect the sound doctrine that brings us closer to the image of Christ in holiness and sanctification. The New Testament isn't only a repetition of the truth that Jesus died to save us. It also contains appeals and commands to have a heart that is true and faithful to all of God's will. If we love him, we will keep his commandments from the heart, not in an external way. I don't preach against musical instruments because I believe religion saves us. I preach against it because I believe we are called to true religion which comes from the heart. "You are a proud man" - I know that I battle with pride like anyone who stands before an audience on a weekly basis. But I pray that my pride has not led me to this conclusion. I have been challenged on many points in the past and I always try to evaluate my beliefs based on what the scriptures actually say. I'm open to change if someone's reasoning is solid. But I feel like most people who argue against me on this topic are heavily invested in their point of view before they come to the scriptures. They are too proud to admit that the current worship trend is plagued with idolatry and selfish pursuits. I'm aware that that last statement is painting with a broad brush. I'm sure not everyone feels idolatrous about their instruments, and many might have a good-hearted desire as they worship God with musical instruments. But those exceptions don't justify altering the traditions handed down, nor do they account for the trend of corrupted hearts. As I said in my sermon, I prefer music, but I firmly believe God prefers singing only. I see the wisdom in that as I look at our current climate. Your words at the beginning, "God never gave you the authority to preach this false doctrine. You are 100% wrong," sound pretty proud to me. I'm sure my response hasn't persuaded you to reconsider. But perhaps others will be helped by this dialogue. God bless.
@@saralandfaith What I said is not proud because Christ didn’t give any of you false teachers authority to teach, not just you but all of you. Christ sent out the apostles and the apostles set up the churches until the falling away of the church. If you were not set up by the original churches you took it upon yourself to become a teacher and start you own church. Those days are over. Nowhere in the scriptures did people start their own church. We have the Bible now we don’t need a teacher we can read for ourselves and the Holy Spirit teaches us. That’s why everybody has different teachings because they are all proud and want to be glorified, and God resists the proud and gives his grace to the humble. Teach your own house. All we are commanded to do is preach the gospel to unbelievers and baptize them in the name of the father son and spirit. They don’t need you after that. If they want to learn from you tell them to read for themselves. The blowing of the trumpets in Numbers 10 is not worship in a musical sense, it’s an alarm for war and a sign of feasts. Christ even used music and dancing in his parable of the prodigal son for a celebration of the repented son. If music is against the law of Christ then he would have never gave it as an example of righteousness. That would be confusing. Matthew 5:17 says he came to fulfill the law and the prophets but he only fulfilled the law at the cross. There are prophecies yet to be fulfilled by him until the last day. You even quoted Revelation 10:7 which proves my point. The seventh trump hasn’t sounded YET, meaning the prophets aren’t fulfilled YET, but they will be. Ephesians 5:19 doesn’t say “Addressing one another”. You might have an ESV or something so I don’t fault you if do. But the text says - Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to YOURSELVES in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody IN YOUR HEART to the Lord; If you want to argue over translation the KJV is ordained of God being not the first English translation but the first one to last. There is not a translation before or after that is more used worldwide by a drastic margin. The best selling book of all time is the KJV Bible. And that is by the will of God because nothing can happen without his power. But I’m not faulting other translations, you are just making a doctrine out of a verse that you don’t understand. The Bible touches on every point, just because something isn’t mention verbatim doesn’t mean that it isn’t covered. And if there is something that it doesn’t mention it has something about that too. Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 14 is written for people like you, you should study it. It’s the perfect example for this topic. God gave us no commandment on how to worship him but the keeping of his commandments, that’s worship enough. If you want to sing, dance, play instruments, write, preach, speak or anything Holy it is acceptable with God. As long as you are not doing it in vain, it must be done with faith. If it’s not in faith then it is sin. Praise and worship means nothing if you don’t feed the hungry, clothe the naked, be a father to the fatherless and take care of the widow, visit the sick and imprisoned, bury the dead, judge righteous judgement, show mercy and forgiveness, give all you have to the poor, love how Christ has loved. That is true worship. Check your spirit
@@mychaljedidiah Where do I start? Jesus gave gifts to men to build up the body of Christ (Eph 4:11-12) until we attain to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers were all given gifts. Apostles and prophets lived in the first century and provided the foundation for our beliefs. Today, we have evangelists, shepherds and teachers. I am an evangelist and a teacher. My job is to study and teach the word of God to those who will listen. I read the Bible for myself and interpreted the text, attempting to understand how the Holy Spirit inspired the original author. I work hard to read in context and try hard to clarify when I submit my own opinion that it's my opinion. Your accusations of false doctrine are harsh. What gives you the authority to speak? You assume that authority without really understanding what I'm saying. Everything in your response shows that you are listening, but not hearing. Read Numbers 10, " On the day of your gladness also, and at your appointed feasts and at the beginnings of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings." The trumpets were associated with worship. My other Old Testament quotes in the sermon show that I'm not outlawing musical instruments from every aspect of life. That would be largely hypocritical and contrary to scripture. I never said that. The prophesies of the OT have been fulfilled in Christ. Isaiah 53 is a prime example. Other prophesies have been fulfilled in the spiritual realm, but not fully realized by us yet. Jesus has fulfilled it all and he continues to fulfill it all. You believe Revelation is futurist. I disagree. Look at the opening chapter. It clearly says it is about "things that must soon take place." Or, in your KJV, " to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass." Is 2000 years shortly coming to pass? "Speaking to yourselves" is obviously an indication that the church at Ephesus is not talking to the church at Rome when they sing intheir assemblies. They are speaking to the group in Ephesus. That's why every modern translation translates it differently. Because we don't use that word the same way anymore. Get an updated translation if you are going to be in a Biblical discussion. I won't break out a Spanish translation to make my point. Why are you breaking out a translation from a different country, from a different time, where the language meant things differently than it does today? And you call me a false teacher? How about we use a translation that connects us with the earliest and best Greek manuscripts since the New Testament was originally written in Greek? I'll gladly look at any reasonable modern translation. Your comment, "if there is something that it doesn’t mention it has something about that too" applies to this discussion because idolatry is mentioned, and it is exactly what's happening when people start worshipping God the way they want instead of sanctifying him as holy. They are worshipping a God they created in their minds and give credit to the Holy Spirit. Your texts in Romans don't apply here because idolatry is clearly described in the New Testament as against Christ's law, as you said in your initial response. Refusing to honor God and seeking your own glory is idolatrous behavior and indicates a corrupted heart. But I know many do not know this is what they are doing. They do it in ignorance. God gave us a commandment on how to worship him. For one thing, Jesus said "In spirit and in truth." Jesus said that the true worshippers would worship God in that way. What does that mean? Is it the law keeping of the Jews or the hybrid law keeping/pagan practices of the Samaritans? Jesus' answer is neither. It's about heart felt and sincere worship (Spirit) that is revolving around God's majesty and glory (truth). If we go beyond that command, we also find other commands and examples of the First Century church, we can learn what those Christians did and were commanded to do to honor God. Should we not take those commands and examples into account? 1 Corinthians 11-14 reveals many commands and examples. It reveals many mistakes we can make in the assembled worship. Chapter 12 outlines several spiritual gifts that God has given the church. Interestingly, playing musical instruments was not on that list. I find it fascinating that musical instruments are mentioned 0 times throughout all of their discussions. Why was it absent from the discussion? Because it wasn't done. Are you absolutely certain that this truth does not matter? Is there a 0% chance that musical instruments were added 600 years later as history records? Am I 100% wrong? You are putting faith in your own wisdom and the wisdom of men who do what they want instead of trying to discern God's will. I agree that praise and worship means nothing if you don't feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and love as Christ loved. 100% agree with that. That's 1 Corinthians 13. However, it would be out of place for us to do all those things as a checklist and completely ignore the commands and examples God has given us for praise and worship in assemblies. The answer is do both, not one. Be holy and love. God Bless.
@@saralandfaith You have not refuted my points. David played the harp to get rid of Saul’s evil spirit. Why did God say to no longer play the harp if that’s what it can do? Christ gave an example of music and dance when the prodigal son repented. Tell me why God would say that and it be sin to do so? Ephesians 5:19 said speak to yourselves and make melody in your heart in the KJV. Tell me why the KJV is as renown as it is from when it came out in 1611 even till this day. People understand it no problem no need for an update. 40 of the best Hebrew and Greek scholars translated it authorized by the King of England. No other translation had that much care into its translation, it has stood the test of time. Why is it still the best selling book of all time, Is it because of the spirit of God maybe? Thy kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. In Revelations 8, 14 & 15 why are they singing with harps? 1 Corinthians 14:6-8 why is Paul comparing speaking in tongues to musical instruments? A microphone is a musical instrument. It’s adds reverb, projection and sometimes delay and other effects to your vocals. Is it a sin to use a microphone to worship God? In Exodus 15 after delivered out of Egypt (before the law was given) why did Moses sing a song and Miriam and the women played the timbrel and dance? Ezekiel 28:13 In the beginning (before the law) why was Lucifer created with tabrets and pipes in him? Genesis 4:20-22 why were musical instruments created? Ephesians 4:11-12 was for the church of that time whose leaders were chosen by the apostles who were chosen by Christ. The Church has since fallen away due to its persecution of the Roman Empire and finished off by the Ottoman Empire. The many church buildings of today is not the church but men after vain glory and filthy lucre. Tell me did the Lord set you up as a teacher over his church and a pastor over his flock? Or did you feel like you knew enough and jumped the gun? The true church are the people who are out here doing God’s work loving and taking care of his people. Paul had a gift to abstain from women for the sake of worshiping the Lord. Tell me, is it a sin to be with a woman? And 2000 years is shortly coming to pass. That’s only 2 days. The NT stated several times that they were already in the last days even then. Hebrews 9:24-26 says Christ was sacrificed in the end of the world. Here’s one example, If all the prophecies have been fulfilled by Christ tell me is Isaiah 2:1-4 fulfilled? I can go on for days about how wrong how you are, but I know it’s useless to reason with an arrogant man. But as you stated maybe someone he will see the dialog and see your stubbornness. I am not a teacher neither do I desire to be for they have the greater judgment. I’ve seen many teachers try to teach the Bible and I have never seen one teach it correctly, not one. There is always uncleaness found in them. After the other brother humbled you in the other comments you ignored and stuck to your error, and now you still refuse to be corrected. Whatever you say after this is vain, but this is a witness against you, you are marked of the Lord. I wash my hands and shake the dust off of my feet. ***** for those who might view this interaction please watch this and judge for yourself. Is this not an ordained gift of the Lord for his worship? th-cam.com/video/ZJOlS9cXE50/w-d-xo.htmlsi=4iO1aQ5tRSTnQf-c
@@mychaljedidiah This will be my last response. I have work to do. 1. The harp didn't do anything. God gave that gift to David for that purpose. Are you David? 2. I never said singing and dancing is a sin. You are putting words in my mouth. Why would you think I believe it's a sin to celebrate? We are talking about assembled worship, which is supposed to be done decently and in order. 3. The selling of the KJV has nothing to do with it's ability to convey the original message to people of the 21st century in America. Since it was created, thousands of additional and older (More reliable) manuscripts have been found. Read "The King James Only Controversy." It is a great and very reliable version of the Bible, but it's not as useful as the more modern translations for the reasons stated above. 4. The book of Revelation is symbolic. Harps could be seen to represent the beauty of songs with hearts full of love. But even if God finds Harps acceptable in heaven, we aren't in heaven and we aren't talking about playing harps. If our goal is to glorify God, we should imitate the first century church which sought to glorify God while having a direct line of communication to his apostles who established the traditions of worship in our temple (the church). Why go to the widely symbolic and prophetic book of Revelation? Can't you find another example in the book of Acts? What about one of the epistles to the churches? Talk about failing to refute a point... 5. Notice the words of 1 Corinthians 14, "even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the osounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" These are used as an example of lifeless sounds. It is to say speaking in tongues, prophesies, etc. are lifeless without understanding. Read the whole context. No mention of those instruments being used in worship. They are merely an illustration. 6. A microphone is not a musical instrument. It's a mechanical instrument. No one plays the microphone when they are singing. It merely projects the voice for all to hear. I'm not condemning the use of all technology. I see technology as a means of enhancing our worship. I see musical instruments as an addition to worship. 7. Moses, Mariam, and David all sang songs and played music in celebration to God. That's fine and good. If you want to do that, go right ahead. I'm not condemning that, and I believe that is a notable distinction to make. I, myself, listen to Christ-centered music with joy and tears. But our assemblies and church gatherings are not about us. They are about honoring and glorifying God. It is my opinion that God is most glorified in us when we sing and make the melody in our hearts instead of making the melody with musical instruments because that's what I read in scriptures. 8. Ezekiel 28:13 is a prophesy about the king of Tyre, relating him to the perfection of creation. Him being created with tabrets and pipes is fascinating, but I still fail to see how that is relevant to the argument. Does the church's worship need to resemble an angel? Are we trying to imitate what you believe is Satan? We aren't arguing about whether musical instruments are acceptable to God. We are talking about our assembled worship as the temple of God. Are we going to follow the first century church's practice or make up our own practice. That's the heart of the question. 9. I don't know. In Genesis 4:20-22, why did a descendent of Cain create musical instruments? It doesn't say so I don't claim to know. 10. The true church abides in Christ and lives for him. Your statement makes it sound like you are the one focused on your works for righteousness. Do you believe that you are God's chosen one because you take care of God's people? I pursue good works, but I don't consider them to amount to much. They are as filthy rags. I cling to Christ. 11. You are creating a straw man with the talk about Paul's gift. There is no mention of the gift to play instruments and you know it. Is that not significant? If not, why not? Because you say so? Again, you fail to refute my point. 12. The readers of Revelation would not see 2000 years as a short amount of time. That's who the book was originally written to and for (Hence chapters 2-3). If it was primarily for us, would he not have said so in the introduction of the letter? Would he not have said to the readers of this letter originally, "This is about things that will take place at the end of time." Instead, we get the impression that he is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem which did soon take place. For those who view this talking about Rome, that's a whole lot sooner than 2000 years! The futurist view doesn't hold up. 13. Isaiah 2 is fulfilled in Christ. Col 1:13-14 says, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." If the kingdom of God has not been established, how were we translated into that kingdom? Hebrews 12:22-24 says, "22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new qcovenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." The mountain of God represents the eternal kingdom that has been established as the greatest kingdom in Christ. That's what books like Acts and Revelation are all about. We, who put our faith in Christ, are a part of that kingdom. The heavenly city is the church, the bride of Christ portrayed symbolically in Revelation 21. 14. Your statement, "I’ve seen many teachers try to teach the Bible, and I have never seen one teach it correctly, not one," displays your arrogance. You know all, and no one matches you. But you call me arrogant. I have seen many teachers err, but I do not claim to have a monopoly on the truth. I concede that I can be wrong, and probably am wrong about many things. My views have changed as people provide solid reasoning and refutation. I could be wrong about this, but my studies and other's arguments are not yet convincing me of it. I feel your comments are just boastful opinions and ideas that come out of thin air. I don't see how you are connecting the dots of God likes music and we should use musical instruments in worship today. Where is the scripture that shows us we are imitating the first century church and building upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets by creating our own form of worship? That seems idolatrous to me. Who have you listened to and what have you studied to arrive at such erroneous beliefs? I do not believe that you got them from reading the Bible and thinking for yourself. I pray God will open your eyes. God bless.
Absolutely false on so many levels! 🤦🏿♂️ 1. Since when was/is the Roman Catholic &/or Orthodox church THE authority of what is or what is not pleasing and acceptable to YHWH? 🤔 2. When did this aforementioned religious organization become synonymous with the coC denomination? 🤔 3. Who are so-called "Church Fathers" to YHWH/Yeshu'a, let alone the all HEBREW Apostles, or the true body? 🤔 5. When Sha'ul recommended Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs found in the Torah and Prophets, didn't ANY of these allow for use of musical instruments? If they suddenly did not, surely Sha'ul would've added that ONLY the parts w/o use of musical instruments was what he was referring to. 💡 I can go on and on, but this should suffice. Look, PERSONAL PREFERENCE is not Torah for ANYONE else. Beside this, who is FORCING you to use musical instruments in praise and worship to YHWH. Ijs... Hymn
1. I never said they were THE authority. Simply pointing out that musical instruments were not a part of worship initially. They were added hundreds of years later. Is it not significant that Christians in the first century sang only? 2. I'm not a part of any denomination. We are simply Christians who try to follow the Bible. 3. You are really making too much out of those quotes and failing to address the other points made in the lesson. Our Apostles never commanded us to play musical instruments. Nor is there any evidence of first-century churches using musical instruments. 5. Sure, the Psalms had musical instruments recommended in the title, which would be done in temple worship. Where is our temple? What instrument are we commanded to play? That same verse (Eph 5:19) commands that we pluck the strings of our hearts. It's not that anyone is forcing us to use musical instruments. It's simply a matter of discerning God's will and discovering what is truly pleasing to God for his glory. Isn't worship about pleasing God? Thanks for your comments. God Bless.
@@saralandfaith Blessings. I will attempt keeping this as concise of a response as possible. 1. Ah, yet you are setting the Catholic church as THE/a authority for "New Testament Christian worship", else why use them as some example/blueprint of such? Furthermore, since when did the Catholic church mirror the church our Lord Yeshu'a founded and established, let alone when did the coC body of believers ever consider them as doing such? b. Says WHOM (that "musical instruments were not a part of worship")? Exactly how are you defining "worship"? Per Yeshu'a Himself, true worship is something done in spirit and in truth. So, IF you're defining "worship" as based upon a certain set of acts, my brother, perhaps you should examine your definition accordingly. c. WHY did the Apostles need to "commanded us to play musical instruments"? Did not some of them command Sha'ul to practice Hebrew temple worship (according to 2nd Luke (so-called "Acts") 21:23f? d. WHO says "that Christians in the first century sang only?" How can you possibly know EVERYTHING everyone did when the authors of epistles/books collected into the bible did not mention every single thing everyone did? Moreover, why would said writers have to mention the use of musical instruments (in worship to YHWY) in order for such to be pleasing and acceptable to YHWH? 2. Ah, but you are part of a denomination seeing as, etymologically speaking, the word simply means "to name". Thus, "Saraland Christians" is a name. And, is such not part of the "Churches of Christ" body of believers? That, too, is a name. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a name (in/of itself). 3. HOW am I "really making too much out of those quotes and failing to address the other points made in the lesson"? b. Again, WHY did "Our Apostles never commanded us to play musical instruments."? c. Seeing as there is a PLETHORA of things we observe, secularly and spiritually, that are not mentioned historically, WHY does there need to be "any evidence of first-century churches using musical instruments."? 4. So, it's your position that the use of musical instruments, in praise and worship to YHWH, is/was ONLY confined to "temple worship."? WHO told you that? And, why didn't they inform Moshe and Miryam in order that they would have not sinned before the Lord by singing AND playing musical instruments according to Exodus 15? b. HOW do you ask "Where is our temple?"? Aren't we believers the temple of YHWH; that He dwells IN us? (1 Corinthians 3:16) c. Again, WHO told you to question "What instrument are we commanded to play?"? Who commanded that you be part of a congregation named "Saraland Christians", complete with a building/property/platform bearing the same insignia? Where do you find such anywhere in biblical literature? Yet, are you sinning because you do so? d. Ah, yet doesn't the author of "That same verse (Eph 5:19) commands that we pluck the strings of our hearts." expect good sense/logic/spiritual understanding/maturity to be utilized? If not, then exactly how do you literally pluck the strings of your heart? And, copy and paste the part where your literal heart (a physical organ) is what the author was speaking of, deal? e. WHY would Sha'ul, a Hebrew of the tribe of Binyamin, prescribe Psalms that allow for usage of musical instruments, let alone the Torah and Prophets, when it seems it's your position that such is sinfully under old law? Why didn't he command them to sing, say, a cappella? - Which, btw, is Italian for "in the manner/style of the chapel", and which chapels were small offshoots of the much larger Roman Catholic cathedrals; housing small ensembles who sang along with a pianist/organist in unison. (Nevermind that such did not yet exist when Sha'ul wrote to the Ephesian believers.) 5. Exactly! No one "is forcing us to use musical instruments.". However, you causing people to perceive using musical instruments is (somehow) unacceptable to YHWH, in/of itself, can be said to be binding something onto others that neither YHWH/Yeshu'a nor His Apostles did. b. Ironically, when it comes to "simply a matter of discerning God's will and discovering what is truly pleasing to God for his glory", do you consider it odd that Yochanan wrote this vision of heaven (Rev. 15): 2 "--And I saw as it were a sea of mirror mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his Mark [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of mirror, 👉🏾👉🏾having the harps of YHWH-The Father. 👈🏾👈🏾 3 And they 👉🏾👉🏾sing the song of Moshe 👈🏾👈🏾the slave of YHWH-The Father, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] your works, Lord The Father Almighty; just and true [are] your ways, you King of nations." WHAT in the world are even symbols of harps (if they are symbols) doing in heaven at all, let alone IF/AS they are used in praise and worship to YHWH? I mean, His will in heaven IS NOT to be also His will on earth, right? What was Kefa thinking writing about musical instruments in heaven? An Apostle for crying aloud. 😉 Then again, "Isn't worship about pleasing God?"? Peace and blessing upon you and yours, my brother in faith. 🙏🏾 Hymn
@@i.AmHymn at 30 minutes I started dealing with the false assumption people make, thinking, "We've always had musical instruments." All of my church history quotes are battling that false assumption. I do not consider them to be a scriptural authority. The first 30 minutes were using scripture. It's interesting that you aren't really addressing the scriptures. Do you have a scripture that reveals a spiritual gift to play musical instruments in assembled worship for Christians? There are multiple passages discussing spiritual gifts. None mention playing musical instruments. Why not? Many people just assume that they used musical instruments in the first century to justify what they want to do when worshipping God. I haven't found any evidence of that. The bottom line is that God didn't spend as much time discussing this issue as we have. Much of what is said is speculation. I don't like to hang my hat on speculations. But, this is an interesting dialogue that others might find helpful so I'll respond to your previous post. Am I binding something by saying I consider it to be sinful or are you binding something by saying it is pleasing to God? That door swings both ways. Both of us are working with very limited knowledge and trying to teach others God's will on the matter of assembled worship. I'm well aware of the dangers of binding something God has not bound based on Paul's letter to the Galatians. In a sense, being for instruments is closer to binding OT law than saying no instruments. But either could be guilty if taken to the point of hanging salvation on it instead of the cross. I do not believe either of us are doing that. Romans 14 indicates that whatever we do should be done for God's glory. It is not my goal to hinder anyone from giving God glory, but I hope to increase the glory he receives and decrease the number of self-glorifying men and women by speaking this simple truth: New Testament Christians gathered and sang praises to God. Modern worship is all about the show and not about God. I understand from scripture that God is glorified less in the grand production of men and more by men and women plucking the strings of their hearts as they sing meaningful words of praise to God. Countless times in the Old Testament he could care less about their grand showing of sacrifice. He just wanted them to have a good and obedient heart. I don't think I'm binding anything by recommending we follow the New Testament example here. If I hurt your feelings by saying that I consider it sinful, I'm sorry but it's how I feel. Ultimately, I'm not your judge and do not know other people's hearts. I said I do not consider it condemnable unless someone believes it's sinful and defiantly does it anyway. I trust God to handle the judgment with mercy and grace for all because I know I need it. Also, to address much of your previous reply, I understand that musical instruments are played in heaven, and I do not consider the use of musical instruments in worship to be sinful for all time and everywhere. That would be largely inconsistent with the scriptures. But my goal in worship is to do what pleases God and draw nearer to him. Christians in the New Testament appear to be very near to the heart of God. They appear to be glorifying him in simple synagogue-type worship. The earliest Christian worship services were heavily influenced by Jewish synagogue worship, which was primarily vocal. In the Jewish tradition, the Temple in Jerusalem was where musical instruments were used, whereas synagogues focused on vocal chanting and recitation. It makes sense for musical instruments to be in the temple only because the temple is the shadow of heavenly realities. First-century Christians followed synagogue type worship not temple worship. I know that the church is called a temple and that we are individually temples. But our instruments are our hearts in the New Testament. Literal harps are played in heaven, not on earth in the New Testament. I consider Revelation's pictures of heaven to be a poor example for us to justify playing musical instruments since we aren't in heaven. With love in Christ,
Also, unrelated to this discussion... Nomination is about putting a name forward. Denomination starts with "de" meaning to go down. Denomination is categorizing the whole into sub names. It is similar to the idea of a denominator which is the number in fractions the top number is divided into. Is Christ divided? I don't claim ties to a sub group. I claim ties to Christ and his church in the New Testament. My theology is not based on ties to one theologian or one group of theologians. I am open to any opinions and beliefs out there which further explain the truth in scripture. The Bible is the only standard and Christ's covenant is the only covenant worth our devotion.
@@saralandfaith Ah, but, yet again, actual FACTS beg to differ with you, my brother. 1. De-nomination literally means: "denomination (n.) late 14c., denominacioun, 👉🏾 "a naming, act of giving a name to," 👉🏾 from Old French denominacion "nominating, naming," from Latin denominationem (nominative denominatio) "a calling by anything other than the proper name, metonymy," noun of action from past-participle stem of denominare "to name," from de- "completely" (see de-) + nominare "to name," from nomen "name" (from PIE root *no-men- "name")." The word also didn't have anything to do with a religious sect until the 17th century, and even then it still referred to something named; categorized, grouped, or not. 2. We know He is not divided. However, we've oft divided OURSELVES by imagining branding our churches in a certain manner, let alone claiming to have THE most appropriate biblical church name, is what sets us apart from other believers and the world rather than our fruits of the Spirit. No one told you to go by the name you do; neither did the Apostles command you to do such. Much rather YOU CHOSE to. Who can spiritually speak against YOUR (brand name) choice? 3. Ah, yet your theology is most certainly influenced by the traditions you've been cultured by; just as your traditions are. b. "ties to Christ and His church" mean ALL believers, EVERYWHERE. Who accused you of not doing such? 4. He most certainly is THE standard, whereas the bible speaks of HIM. Also, His covenant IS NOT the new testament canon but, rather, the latter speaks of His covenant - which was ratified in His blood, not ink. 5. NONE of this takes away from the fact Paul was not giving the Ephesian, Colossian, or any other believer, the foundation of a so-called (numbered-act) "worship service". Rather, he was merely ENCOURAGING believers, in their DAILY LIVES, to put forth praise and worship that has ALWAYS been pleasing and acceptable to God: that which is in Spirit and truth from the sincerity of their heart (intents; emotions); with or without musical instruments. Blessings 🙏🏾
God never gave you authority to preach this false doctrine. You are 100% wrong. Instruments aren’t Judaism. Judaism is the keeping of the law of Moses which was fulfilled in Christ. The musicians weren’t instituted until after David which is not the law of Moses. Christ didn’t fulfill all of the prophets yet just the law. Ephesians 5:19 is saying to sing to yourself in your heart for the Lord. He is not telling you to sing out loud but in your mind to keep you focused on the Lord’s work. And this doesn’t mean you can’t use instruments and sing at all because if that was the case there is a lot of things we can’t do that we do that’s not in the NT. Verse 19 says be not drunk with excess of wine, does that mean he’s commanding us that we must drink wine just not too much? No, he’s saying if we do drink then not to drink too much. The Lord commands us to be perfect in our works he could care less about an instrument. He said as long as we stay away from blood, fornication, idolatry, and things strangled then we are good, he said nothing about music. The scripture states where there is no law there is no sin so stop adding to the scriptures. Preach the gospel and nothing else because we can read for ourselves the Holy Spirit teaches us all things we don’t need another false teacher. Playing instruments for the Lord has always been and will always be of the Lord. David played the harp to get rid of evil spirits and you’re telling me he said stop doing that? You’re a proud man, stand down or be humbled by the Lord.
"Instruments aren't Judaism" - Moses commanded the use of a trumpet during the worship of Yahweh (Num 10:8-10).
"Judaism is keeping the law of Moses" - Judaism is keeping the law and prophets. That's what Christ fulfilled (Matt 5:17).
"Christ didn't fulfill all of the prophets yet just the law" - Revelation clearly says that at the blowing of the seventh trumpet, the words of God spoken by his prophets will be fulfilled. (Rev 10:7). The seventh trumpet blew as a sign of Jesus being established on his throne at the destruction of Jerusalem (Or Rome depending on your view of Revelation). In a sense, all of the promises of God have found their "Yes" in Christ. We have every spiritual blessing in Christ.
"Ephesians 5:19 is saying to sing to yourself in your heart for the Lord" - If that is true, why does it use the words, "Addressing one another" as it talks about our singing. While we sing to one another, we are commanded also to "make a melody in our heart." The melody we are told to have is not a melody created with our hands or feet, but with our hearts. As the vocal chords vibrate, our hearts beat and our souls cry out with praise and joy over what God has done for us. This is intended to be heard by our brothers and sisters.
"This does not mean you can't use instruments and sing at all because if that is the case there is a lot of things we can't do that we do that's not in the New Testament." You can interpret this however you would like, but I feel we honor God most by worshipping him with the simple methods he has outlined in his word throughout the New Testament. The instruments of the Old Testament were a shadow, representing the heart believers would have in the future, under the New Covenant. The beautiful music of the Old Testament represents the beautiful music God hears within us who love and adore him as we sing praise. If you feel God is most honored with musical instruments being played, that's fine. You have the freedom to believe what you want. However, I see no scriptures to justify your point of view in the New Testament. The only scriptures you have to point to are found in the Old Testament where they worshipped a physical temple with physical sacrifices to atone for their own sin. The music was played in conjunction with those sacrificial offerings.
"The Lord commands us to be perfect in our works he could care less about an instrument. He said as long as we stay away from blood, fornication, idolatry, and things strangled then we are good, he said nothing about music... Where there is no law there is no sin so stop adding to the scriptures" - We add to scriptures by restricting where God has not restricted and by promoting where God has not promoted. The argument, "God didn't say not to" is flawed because it has no end. It doesn't take much to move from there to complete apostacy. God didn't say not to eat cheeseburgers and coke during the Lord's Supper. I know that's a ridiculous example, but it's true. We can come up with all kinds of things to add to our worship that God didn't tell us not to do. At some point, it is no longer about worshipping God. It's about doing what we enjoy and worshipping a God we create in our minds. I would remind you that the Christians in the New Testament had a traditional way of worshipping that was closer to synagogue worship than temple worship. Should we ignore those traditions and replace them with our own? Notice that Paul commended the Corinthians for keeping the traditions he set in order (1 Corinthians 11:2). I don't want to be found guilty of making up laws that God did not make. That's why I worded everything the way I did. The sin is not found in playing musical instruments. The sin is found in the pride of worshipping God however we want to and acting like it pleases him. Today, we see the extent to which men take this "liberty." Worship is more a concert for entertainment than a worship for God.
"Preach the gospel and nothing else" - I preach the gospel. In every sermon I try to make it clear that we are not saved because we do all the right things, but we want to do all the right things because God saved us. If I am confined to preaching the gospel only, I will neglect the sound doctrine that brings us closer to the image of Christ in holiness and sanctification. The New Testament isn't only a repetition of the truth that Jesus died to save us. It also contains appeals and commands to have a heart that is true and faithful to all of God's will. If we love him, we will keep his commandments from the heart, not in an external way. I don't preach against musical instruments because I believe religion saves us. I preach against it because I believe we are called to true religion which comes from the heart.
"You are a proud man" - I know that I battle with pride like anyone who stands before an audience on a weekly basis. But I pray that my pride has not led me to this conclusion. I have been challenged on many points in the past and I always try to evaluate my beliefs based on what the scriptures actually say. I'm open to change if someone's reasoning is solid. But I feel like most people who argue against me on this topic are heavily invested in their point of view before they come to the scriptures. They are too proud to admit that the current worship trend is plagued with idolatry and selfish pursuits. I'm aware that that last statement is painting with a broad brush. I'm sure not everyone feels idolatrous about their instruments, and many might have a good-hearted desire as they worship God with musical instruments. But those exceptions don't justify altering the traditions handed down, nor do they account for the trend of corrupted hearts. As I said in my sermon, I prefer music, but I firmly believe God prefers singing only. I see the wisdom in that as I look at our current climate.
Your words at the beginning, "God never gave you the authority to preach this false doctrine. You are 100% wrong," sound pretty proud to me. I'm sure my response hasn't persuaded you to reconsider. But perhaps others will be helped by this dialogue. God bless.
@@saralandfaith What I said is not proud because Christ didn’t give any of you false teachers authority to teach, not just you but all of you. Christ sent out the apostles and the apostles set up the churches until the falling away of the church. If you were not set up by the original churches you took it upon yourself to become a teacher and start you own church. Those days are over. Nowhere in the scriptures did people start their own church. We have the Bible now we don’t need a teacher we can read for ourselves and the Holy Spirit teaches us. That’s why everybody has different teachings because they are all proud and want to be glorified, and God resists the proud and gives his grace to the humble. Teach your own house. All we are commanded to do is preach the gospel to unbelievers and baptize them in the name of the father son and spirit. They don’t need you after that. If they want to learn from you tell them to read for themselves.
The blowing of the trumpets in Numbers 10 is not worship in a musical sense, it’s an alarm for war and a sign of feasts.
Christ even used music and dancing in his parable of the prodigal son for a celebration of the repented son. If music is against the law of Christ then he would have never gave it as an example of righteousness. That would be confusing.
Matthew 5:17 says he came to fulfill the law and the prophets but he only fulfilled the law at the cross. There are prophecies yet to be fulfilled by him until the last day. You even quoted Revelation 10:7 which proves my point. The seventh trump hasn’t sounded YET, meaning the prophets aren’t fulfilled YET, but they will be.
Ephesians 5:19 doesn’t say “Addressing one another”. You might have an ESV or something so I don’t fault you if do. But the text says - Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to YOURSELVES in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody IN YOUR HEART to the Lord;
If you want to argue over translation the KJV is ordained of God being not the first English translation but the first one to last. There is not a translation before or after that is more used worldwide by a drastic margin. The best selling book of all time is the KJV Bible. And that is by the will of God because nothing can happen without his power. But I’m not faulting other translations, you are just making a doctrine out of a verse that you don’t understand.
The Bible touches on every point, just because something isn’t mention verbatim doesn’t mean that it isn’t covered. And if there is something that it doesn’t mention it has something about that too.
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 14 is written for people like you, you should study it. It’s the perfect example for this topic.
God gave us no commandment on how to worship him but the keeping of his commandments, that’s worship enough. If you want to sing, dance, play instruments, write, preach, speak or anything Holy it is acceptable with God. As long as you are not doing it in vain, it must be done with faith. If it’s not in faith then it is sin.
Praise and worship means nothing if you don’t feed the hungry, clothe the naked, be a father to the fatherless and take care of the widow, visit the sick and imprisoned, bury the dead, judge righteous judgement, show mercy and forgiveness, give all you have to the poor, love how Christ has loved. That is true worship.
Check your spirit
@@mychaljedidiah Where do I start?
Jesus gave gifts to men to build up the body of Christ (Eph 4:11-12) until we attain to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers were all given gifts. Apostles and prophets lived in the first century and provided the foundation for our beliefs. Today, we have evangelists, shepherds and teachers. I am an evangelist and a teacher. My job is to study and teach the word of God to those who will listen. I read the Bible for myself and interpreted the text, attempting to understand how the Holy Spirit inspired the original author. I work hard to read in context and try hard to clarify when I submit my own opinion that it's my opinion. Your accusations of false doctrine are harsh. What gives you the authority to speak? You assume that authority without really understanding what I'm saying. Everything in your response shows that you are listening, but not hearing.
Read Numbers 10, " On the day of your gladness also, and at your appointed feasts and at the beginnings of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings." The trumpets were associated with worship. My other Old Testament quotes in the sermon show that
I'm not outlawing musical instruments from every aspect of life. That would be largely hypocritical and contrary to scripture. I never said that.
The prophesies of the OT have been fulfilled in Christ. Isaiah 53 is a prime example. Other prophesies have been fulfilled in the spiritual realm, but not fully realized by us yet. Jesus has fulfilled it all and he continues to fulfill it all. You believe Revelation is futurist. I disagree. Look at the opening chapter. It clearly says it is about "things that must soon take place." Or, in your KJV, " to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass." Is 2000 years shortly coming to pass?
"Speaking to yourselves" is obviously an indication that the church at Ephesus is not talking to the church at Rome when they sing intheir assemblies. They are speaking to the group in Ephesus. That's why every modern translation translates it differently. Because we don't use that word the same way anymore. Get an updated translation if you are going to be in a Biblical discussion. I won't break out a Spanish translation to make my point. Why are you breaking out a translation from a different country, from a different time, where the language meant things differently than it does today? And you call me a false teacher? How about we use a translation that connects us with the earliest and best Greek manuscripts since the New Testament was originally written in Greek? I'll gladly look at any reasonable modern translation.
Your comment, "if there is something that it doesn’t mention it has something about that too" applies to this discussion because idolatry is mentioned, and it is exactly what's happening when people start worshipping God the way they want instead of sanctifying him as holy. They are worshipping a God they created in their minds and give credit to the Holy Spirit.
Your texts in Romans don't apply here because idolatry is clearly described in the New Testament as against Christ's law, as you said in your initial response. Refusing to honor God and seeking your own glory is idolatrous behavior and indicates a corrupted heart. But I know many do not know this is what they are doing. They do it in ignorance.
God gave us a commandment on how to worship him. For one thing, Jesus said "In spirit and in truth." Jesus said that the true worshippers would worship God in that way. What does that mean? Is it the law keeping of the Jews or the hybrid law keeping/pagan practices of the Samaritans? Jesus' answer is neither. It's about heart felt and sincere worship (Spirit) that is revolving around God's majesty and glory (truth).
If we go beyond that command, we also find other commands and examples of the First Century church, we can learn what those Christians did and were commanded to do to honor God. Should we not take those commands and examples into account? 1 Corinthians 11-14 reveals many commands and examples. It reveals many mistakes we can make in the assembled worship. Chapter 12 outlines several spiritual gifts that God has given the church. Interestingly, playing musical instruments was not on that list. I find it fascinating that musical instruments are mentioned 0 times throughout all of their discussions. Why was it absent from the discussion? Because it wasn't done. Are you absolutely certain that this truth does not matter? Is there a 0% chance that musical instruments were added 600 years later as history records? Am I 100% wrong? You are putting faith in your own wisdom and the wisdom of men who do what they want instead of trying to discern God's will.
I agree that praise and worship means nothing if you don't feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and love as Christ loved. 100% agree with that. That's 1 Corinthians 13. However, it would be out of place for us to do all those things as a checklist and completely ignore the commands and examples God has given us for praise and worship in assemblies. The answer is do both, not one. Be holy and love. God Bless.
@@saralandfaith You have not refuted my points. David played the harp to get rid of Saul’s evil spirit. Why did God say to no longer play the harp if that’s what it can do?
Christ gave an example of music and dance when the prodigal son repented. Tell me why God would say that and it be sin to do so?
Ephesians 5:19 said speak to yourselves and make melody in your heart in the KJV. Tell me why the KJV is as renown as it is from when it came out in 1611 even till this day. People understand it no problem no need for an update. 40 of the best Hebrew and Greek scholars translated it authorized by the King of England. No other translation had that much care into its translation, it has stood the test of time. Why is it still the best selling book of all time, Is it because of the spirit of God maybe?
Thy kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. In Revelations 8, 14 & 15 why are they singing with harps?
1 Corinthians 14:6-8 why is Paul comparing speaking in tongues to musical instruments?
A microphone is a musical instrument. It’s adds reverb, projection and sometimes delay and other effects to your vocals. Is it a sin to use a microphone to worship God?
In Exodus 15 after delivered out of Egypt (before the law was given) why did Moses sing a song and Miriam and the women played the timbrel and dance?
Ezekiel 28:13 In the beginning (before the law) why was Lucifer created with tabrets and pipes in him?
Genesis 4:20-22 why were musical instruments created?
Ephesians 4:11-12 was for the church of that time whose leaders were chosen by the apostles who were chosen by Christ. The Church has since fallen away due to its persecution of the Roman Empire and finished off by the Ottoman Empire. The many church buildings of today is not the church but men after vain glory and filthy lucre. Tell me did the Lord set you up as a teacher over his church and a pastor over his flock? Or did you feel like you knew enough and jumped the gun?
The true church are the people who are out here doing God’s work loving and taking care of his people.
Paul had a gift to abstain from women for the sake of worshiping the Lord. Tell me, is it a sin to be with a woman?
And 2000 years is shortly coming to pass. That’s only 2 days. The NT stated several times that they were already in the last days even then. Hebrews 9:24-26 says Christ was sacrificed in the end of the world.
Here’s one example, If all the prophecies have been fulfilled by Christ tell me is Isaiah 2:1-4 fulfilled?
I can go on for days about how wrong how you are, but I know it’s useless to reason with an arrogant man. But as you stated maybe someone he will see the dialog and see your stubbornness. I am not a teacher neither do I desire to be for they have the greater judgment. I’ve seen many teachers try to teach the Bible and I have never seen one teach it correctly, not one. There is always uncleaness found in them. After the other brother humbled you in the other comments you ignored and stuck to your error, and now you still refuse to be corrected. Whatever you say after this is vain, but this is a witness against you, you are marked of the Lord. I wash my hands and shake the dust off of my feet.
***** for those who might view this interaction please watch this and judge for yourself. Is this not an ordained gift of the Lord for his worship?
th-cam.com/video/ZJOlS9cXE50/w-d-xo.htmlsi=4iO1aQ5tRSTnQf-c
@@mychaljedidiah This will be my last response. I have work to do.
1. The harp didn't do anything. God gave that gift to David for that purpose. Are you David?
2. I never said singing and dancing is a sin. You are putting words in my mouth. Why would you think I believe it's a sin to celebrate? We are talking about assembled worship, which is supposed to be done decently and in order.
3. The selling of the KJV has nothing to do with it's ability to convey the original message to people of the 21st century in America. Since it was created, thousands of additional and older (More reliable) manuscripts have been found. Read "The King James Only Controversy." It is a great and very reliable version of the Bible, but it's not as useful as the more modern translations for the reasons stated above.
4. The book of Revelation is symbolic. Harps could be seen to represent the beauty of songs with hearts full of love. But even if God finds Harps acceptable in heaven, we aren't in heaven and we aren't talking about playing harps. If our goal is to glorify God, we should imitate the first century church which sought to glorify God while having a direct line of communication to his apostles who established the traditions of worship in our temple (the church). Why go to the widely symbolic and prophetic book of Revelation? Can't you find another example in the book of Acts? What about one of the epistles to the churches? Talk about failing to refute a point...
5. Notice the words of 1 Corinthians 14, "even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the osounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" These are used as an example of lifeless sounds. It is to say speaking in tongues, prophesies, etc. are lifeless without understanding. Read the whole context. No mention of those instruments being used in worship. They are merely an illustration.
6. A microphone is not a musical instrument. It's a mechanical instrument. No one plays the microphone when they are singing. It merely projects the voice for all to hear. I'm not condemning the use of all technology. I see technology as a means of enhancing our worship. I see musical instruments as an addition to worship.
7. Moses, Mariam, and David all sang songs and played music in celebration to God. That's fine and good. If you want to do that, go right ahead. I'm not condemning that, and I believe that is a notable distinction to make. I, myself, listen to Christ-centered music with joy and tears. But our assemblies and church gatherings are not about us. They are about honoring and glorifying God. It is my opinion that God is most glorified in us when we sing and make the melody in our hearts instead of making the melody with musical instruments because that's what I read in scriptures.
8. Ezekiel 28:13 is a prophesy about the king of Tyre, relating him to the perfection of creation. Him being created with tabrets and pipes is fascinating, but I still fail to see how that is relevant to the argument. Does the church's worship need to resemble an angel? Are we trying to imitate what you believe is Satan? We aren't arguing about whether musical instruments are acceptable to God. We are talking about our assembled worship as the temple of God. Are we going to follow the first century church's practice or make up our own practice. That's the heart of the question.
9. I don't know. In Genesis 4:20-22, why did a descendent of Cain create musical instruments? It doesn't say so I don't claim to know.
10. The true church abides in Christ and lives for him. Your statement makes it sound like you are the one focused on your works for righteousness. Do you believe that you are God's chosen one because you take care of God's people? I pursue good works, but I don't consider them to amount to much. They are as filthy rags. I cling to Christ.
11. You are creating a straw man with the talk about Paul's gift. There is no mention of the gift to play instruments and you know it. Is that not significant? If not, why not? Because you say so? Again, you fail to refute my point.
12. The readers of Revelation would not see 2000 years as a short amount of time. That's who the book was originally written to and for (Hence chapters 2-3). If it was primarily for us, would he not have said so in the introduction of the letter? Would he not have said to the readers of this letter originally, "This is about things that will take place at the end of time." Instead, we get the impression that he is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem which did soon take place. For those who view this talking about Rome, that's a whole lot sooner than 2000 years! The futurist view doesn't hold up.
13. Isaiah 2 is fulfilled in Christ. Col 1:13-14 says, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." If the kingdom of God has not been established, how were we translated into that kingdom? Hebrews 12:22-24 says, "22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new qcovenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." The mountain of God represents the eternal kingdom that has been established as the greatest kingdom in Christ. That's what books like Acts and Revelation are all about. We, who put our faith in Christ, are a part of that kingdom. The heavenly city is the church, the bride of Christ portrayed symbolically in Revelation 21.
14. Your statement, "I’ve seen many teachers try to teach the Bible, and I have never seen one teach it correctly, not one," displays your arrogance. You know all, and no one matches you. But you call me arrogant. I have seen many teachers err, but I do not claim to have a monopoly on the truth. I concede that I can be wrong, and probably am wrong about many things. My views have changed as people provide solid reasoning and refutation. I could be wrong about this, but my studies and other's arguments are not yet convincing me of it. I feel your comments are just boastful opinions and ideas that come out of thin air. I don't see how you are connecting the dots of God likes music and we should use musical instruments in worship today. Where is the scripture that shows us we are imitating the first century church and building upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets by creating our own form of worship? That seems idolatrous to me.
Who have you listened to and what have you studied to arrive at such erroneous beliefs? I do not believe that you got them from reading the Bible and thinking for yourself. I pray God will open your eyes. God bless.
Absolutely false on so many levels! 🤦🏿♂️
1. Since when was/is the Roman Catholic &/or Orthodox church THE authority of what is or what is not pleasing and acceptable to YHWH? 🤔
2. When did this aforementioned religious organization become synonymous with the coC denomination? 🤔
3. Who are so-called "Church Fathers" to YHWH/Yeshu'a, let alone the all HEBREW Apostles, or the true body? 🤔
5. When Sha'ul recommended Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs found in the Torah and Prophets, didn't ANY of these allow for use of musical instruments? If they suddenly did not, surely Sha'ul would've added that ONLY the parts w/o use of musical instruments was what he was referring to. 💡
I can go on and on, but this should suffice.
Look, PERSONAL PREFERENCE is not Torah for ANYONE else. Beside this, who is FORCING you to use musical instruments in praise and worship to YHWH.
Ijs...
Hymn
1. I never said they were THE authority. Simply pointing out that musical instruments were not a part of worship initially. They were added hundreds of years later. Is it not significant that Christians in the first century sang only?
2. I'm not a part of any denomination. We are simply Christians who try to follow the Bible.
3. You are really making too much out of those quotes and failing to address the other points made in the lesson. Our Apostles never commanded us to play musical instruments. Nor is there any evidence of first-century churches using musical instruments.
5. Sure, the Psalms had musical instruments recommended in the title, which would be done in temple worship. Where is our temple? What instrument are we commanded to play? That same verse (Eph 5:19) commands that we pluck the strings of our hearts.
It's not that anyone is forcing us to use musical instruments. It's simply a matter of discerning God's will and discovering what is truly pleasing to God for his glory. Isn't worship about pleasing God?
Thanks for your comments. God Bless.
@@saralandfaith Blessings. I will attempt keeping this as concise of a response as possible.
1. Ah, yet you are setting the Catholic church as THE/a authority for "New Testament Christian worship", else why use them as some example/blueprint of such? Furthermore, since when did the Catholic church mirror the church our Lord Yeshu'a founded and established, let alone when did the coC body of believers ever consider them as doing such?
b. Says WHOM (that "musical instruments were not a part of worship")? Exactly how are you defining "worship"? Per Yeshu'a Himself, true worship is something done in spirit and in truth. So, IF you're defining "worship" as based upon a certain set of acts, my brother, perhaps you should examine your definition accordingly.
c. WHY did the Apostles need to "commanded us to play musical instruments"? Did not some of them command Sha'ul to practice Hebrew temple worship (according to 2nd Luke (so-called "Acts") 21:23f?
d. WHO says "that Christians in the first century sang only?" How can you possibly know EVERYTHING everyone did when the authors of epistles/books collected into the bible did not mention every single thing everyone did? Moreover, why would said writers have to mention the use of musical instruments (in worship to YHWY) in order for such to be pleasing and acceptable to YHWH?
2. Ah, but you are part of a denomination seeing as, etymologically speaking, the word simply means "to name". Thus, "Saraland Christians" is a name. And, is such not part of the "Churches of Christ" body of believers? That, too, is a name. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a name (in/of itself).
3. HOW am I "really making too much out of those quotes and failing to address the other points made in the lesson"?
b. Again, WHY did "Our Apostles never commanded us to play musical instruments."?
c. Seeing as there is a PLETHORA of things we observe, secularly and spiritually, that are not mentioned historically, WHY does there need to be "any evidence of first-century churches using musical instruments."?
4. So, it's your position that the use of musical instruments, in praise and worship to YHWH, is/was ONLY confined to "temple worship."? WHO told you that? And, why didn't they inform Moshe and Miryam in order that they would have not sinned before the Lord by singing AND playing musical instruments according to Exodus 15?
b. HOW do you ask "Where is our temple?"? Aren't we believers the temple of YHWH; that He dwells IN us? (1 Corinthians 3:16)
c. Again, WHO told you to question "What instrument are we commanded to play?"? Who commanded that you be part of a congregation named "Saraland Christians", complete with a building/property/platform bearing the same insignia? Where do you find such anywhere in biblical literature? Yet, are you sinning because you do so?
d. Ah, yet doesn't the author of "That same verse (Eph 5:19) commands that we pluck the strings of our hearts." expect good sense/logic/spiritual understanding/maturity to be utilized? If not, then exactly how do you literally pluck the strings of your heart? And, copy and paste the part where your literal heart (a physical organ) is what the author was speaking of, deal?
e. WHY would Sha'ul, a Hebrew of the tribe of Binyamin, prescribe Psalms that allow for usage of musical instruments, let alone the Torah and Prophets, when it seems it's your position that such is sinfully under old law? Why didn't he command them to sing, say, a cappella? - Which, btw, is Italian for "in the manner/style of the chapel", and which chapels were small offshoots of the much larger Roman Catholic cathedrals; housing small ensembles who sang along with a pianist/organist in unison. (Nevermind that such did not yet exist when Sha'ul wrote to the Ephesian believers.)
5. Exactly! No one "is forcing us to use musical instruments.". However, you causing people to perceive using musical instruments is (somehow) unacceptable to YHWH, in/of itself, can be said to be binding something onto others that neither YHWH/Yeshu'a nor His Apostles did.
b. Ironically, when it comes to "simply a matter of discerning God's will and discovering what is truly pleasing to God for his glory", do you consider it odd that Yochanan wrote this vision of heaven (Rev. 15):
2 "--And I saw as it were a sea of mirror mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his Mark [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of mirror, 👉🏾👉🏾having the harps of YHWH-The Father. 👈🏾👈🏾
3 And they 👉🏾👉🏾sing the song of Moshe 👈🏾👈🏾the slave of YHWH-The Father, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] your works, Lord The Father Almighty; just and true [are] your ways, you King of nations."
WHAT in the world are even symbols of harps (if they are symbols) doing in heaven at all, let alone IF/AS they are used in praise and worship to YHWH? I mean, His will in heaven IS NOT to be also His will on earth, right? What was Kefa thinking writing about musical instruments in heaven? An Apostle for crying aloud. 😉
Then again, "Isn't worship about pleasing God?"?
Peace and blessing upon you and yours, my brother in faith. 🙏🏾
Hymn
@@i.AmHymn at 30 minutes I started dealing with the false assumption people make, thinking, "We've always had musical instruments." All of my church history quotes are battling that false assumption. I do not consider them to be a scriptural authority. The first 30 minutes were using scripture. It's interesting that you aren't really addressing the scriptures.
Do you have a scripture that reveals a spiritual gift to play musical instruments in assembled worship for Christians? There are multiple passages discussing spiritual gifts. None mention playing musical instruments. Why not? Many people just assume that they used musical instruments in the first century to justify what they want to do when worshipping God. I haven't found any evidence of that.
The bottom line is that God didn't spend as much time discussing this issue as we have. Much of what is said is speculation. I don't like to hang my hat on speculations.
But, this is an interesting dialogue that others might find helpful so I'll respond to your previous post.
Am I binding something by saying I consider it to be sinful or are you binding something by saying it is pleasing to God? That door swings both ways. Both of us are working with very limited knowledge and trying to teach others God's will on the matter of assembled worship. I'm well aware of the dangers of binding something God has not bound based on Paul's letter to the Galatians. In a sense, being for instruments is closer to binding OT law than saying no instruments. But either could be guilty if taken to the point of hanging salvation on it instead of the cross. I do not believe either of us are doing that.
Romans 14 indicates that whatever we do should be done for God's glory. It is not my goal to hinder anyone from giving God glory, but I hope to increase the glory he receives and decrease the number of self-glorifying men and women by speaking this simple truth: New Testament Christians gathered and sang praises to God. Modern worship is all about the show and not about God. I understand from scripture that God is glorified less in the grand production of men and more by men and women plucking the strings of their hearts as they sing meaningful words of praise to God. Countless times in the Old Testament he could care less about their grand showing of sacrifice. He just wanted them to have a good and obedient heart.
I don't think I'm binding anything by recommending we follow the New Testament example here. If I hurt your feelings by saying that I consider it sinful, I'm sorry but it's how I feel. Ultimately, I'm not your judge and do not know other people's hearts. I said I do not consider it condemnable unless someone believes it's sinful and defiantly does it anyway. I trust God to handle the judgment with mercy and grace for all because I know I need it.
Also, to address much of your previous reply, I understand that musical instruments are played in heaven, and I do not consider the use of musical instruments in worship to be sinful for all time and everywhere. That would be largely inconsistent with the scriptures. But my goal in worship is to do what pleases God and draw nearer to him. Christians in the New Testament appear to be very near to the heart of God. They appear to be glorifying him in simple synagogue-type worship. The earliest Christian worship services were heavily influenced by Jewish synagogue worship, which was primarily vocal. In the Jewish tradition, the Temple in Jerusalem was where musical instruments were used, whereas synagogues focused on vocal chanting and recitation. It makes sense for musical instruments to be in the temple only because the temple is the shadow of heavenly realities. First-century Christians followed synagogue type worship not temple worship. I know that the church is called a temple and that we are individually temples. But our instruments are our hearts in the New Testament. Literal harps are played in heaven, not on earth in the New Testament. I consider Revelation's pictures of heaven to be a poor example for us to justify playing musical instruments since we aren't in heaven.
With love in Christ,
Also, unrelated to this discussion... Nomination is about putting a name forward. Denomination starts with "de" meaning to go down. Denomination is categorizing the whole into sub names. It is similar to the idea of a denominator which is the number in fractions the top number is divided into. Is Christ divided? I don't claim ties to a sub group. I claim ties to Christ and his church in the New Testament. My theology is not based on ties to one theologian or one group of theologians. I am open to any opinions and beliefs out there which further explain the truth in scripture. The Bible is the only standard and Christ's covenant is the only covenant worth our devotion.
@@saralandfaith
Ah, but, yet again, actual FACTS beg to differ with you, my brother.
1. De-nomination literally means:
"denomination (n.)
late 14c., denominacioun, 👉🏾 "a naming, act of giving a name to," 👉🏾 from Old French denominacion "nominating, naming," from Latin denominationem (nominative denominatio) "a calling by anything other than the proper name, metonymy," noun of action from past-participle stem of denominare "to name," from de- "completely" (see de-) + nominare "to name," from nomen "name" (from PIE root *no-men- "name")."
The word also didn't have anything to do with a religious sect until the 17th century, and even then it still referred to something named; categorized, grouped, or not.
2. We know He is not divided. However, we've oft divided OURSELVES by imagining branding our churches in a certain manner, let alone claiming to have THE most appropriate biblical church name, is what sets us apart from other believers and the world rather than our fruits of the Spirit.
No one told you to go by the name you do; neither did the Apostles command you to do such. Much rather YOU CHOSE to. Who can spiritually speak against YOUR (brand name) choice?
3. Ah, yet your theology is most certainly influenced by the traditions you've been cultured by; just as your traditions are.
b. "ties to Christ and His church" mean ALL believers, EVERYWHERE. Who accused you of not doing such?
4. He most certainly is THE standard, whereas the bible speaks of HIM.
Also, His covenant IS NOT the new testament canon but, rather, the latter speaks of His covenant - which was ratified in His blood, not ink.
5. NONE of this takes away from the fact Paul was not giving the Ephesian, Colossian, or any other believer, the foundation of a so-called (numbered-act) "worship service". Rather, he was merely ENCOURAGING believers, in their DAILY LIVES, to put forth praise and worship that has ALWAYS been pleasing and acceptable to God: that which is in Spirit and truth from the sincerity of their heart (intents; emotions); with or without musical instruments.
Blessings 🙏🏾