I feel like when a book gets an adaptation, the most toxic side of the fandom comes out. It's really disappointing, especially for fandoms that I otherwise typically enjoy. The Shadow and Bone fandom seems to be much better in that regard than most fandoms I've interacted with. They were generally positive when the show was coming out, even when they had critiques of the show
Agreed. I wonder if the original author being directly involved in the adaptation really helps reduce the trend towards toxicity. In other adaptations, the fans can leap to "the adaptors are destroying the memory of the author and have never even read the books!" Can't really say that when Bardugo is writing the adaptations herself.
I think that was because the writers didn’t go away from its original material and stayed quite true to the books and also the author was very much involved and that doesn’t happen with a lot of books unfortunately which why a lot of fans get angry about
Felt that way with wheel of time. The Fandom felt really great when I started reading but the second the show came out I felt a 180 degree shift and now all I see is the negative everywhere
Yeah same, i was thinking that... I loved the whell of time books.. When the series came out I watched a couple episodes... Didnt particularly like. But, sad as i was about not getting the adaptation i wanted, that just meant it wasnt a show id be watching... But i feel some people that didnt like it still watched just to be hatefull about it, and well... Thats not alright
Sadly, the ACOTAR fandom will become even WORSE at any news of the future tv show because actors won’t look exactly like the character or the plot line not following any exact detail. Just how the Witcher fandom also became worse after the release of the tv show. But what I dislike about the Witcher fandom is that they say a lot of gross things about women, like the actresses or even women sexualizing Henry Cavil. These fans are so toxic that Henry doesn’t post on his instagram as much anymore, and he had to make a post defending his relationship.
I hope that doesn’t happen for ACOTAR fans, but I could see it being an issue, especially if the male cast members aren’t deemed “hot enough” by the fandom (which would be horrible)
Some fandoms are big enough that your experience of them can depend on which branch you encounter. I'd say LOTR is one, and even more so HP - back when I was part of the active fandom years ago there were sites and forums I would go to where everyone was lovely, and others where it was the complete opposite.
Yeah, I wonder if the rise of the internet in general has had a big impact, because I’ve heard similar things about stories that are nostalgic to those of us who were teens when the internet was first becoming more popular
I gotta throw the Malazan Community some love here. They have been great to me. The not holding hands thing is a genuine feeling of why they love the series. There is a lot of discovery it offers. I don't think they are trying to put people down or call people dumb. I feel like calling that out as mean or elitist might be missing some of the intent behind the thing they are really saying they love about the series. But now that it is brought up I could totally see how it would come off that way. They have been A+ with me as a new reader with my struggles and criticisms with the series and I have only seen them open up and be welcoming to people giving the series a shot. They have really been super kind. Gotta throw them some love here. Some might use that comment to mock, but in my experience that comment comes from a genuine place about the series they are excited for and not about calling people dumb. This felt like a bit of an unfair portrayal of that particular thing that has them really loving a series.
Yeah I've had nothing but a great time with the community, along with Erikson himself with how often he speaks about the books. "Not holding your hand" is a phrase used ad nauseam and I understand how irritating it is hearing the same thing constantly...but it's not an insult nor a knock on someone's intelligence. It's just a fact about the series that could hopefully help change your expectations and how you read it. It's not written the same as most fantasy so don't read it as though it IS most fantasy and then say it's just bad writing. I've also seen countless times of massive fans understanding why others don't want to read it. Having it on the very bottom right next to the Witcher fans where she said they are disgusting humans beings seems to be a bit of an over reaction.
@@wherespookie1ight. The portrayal of that handholding comment felt a little bit like texting something to a spouse and she reads it with some extra stank that totally misunderstands the intent behind the original comment. I do not get the same impolite subtext behind it but I totally get where somebody could take it that way. Had to throw some love out to some of the nicest people I have come across.
Felt a bit nasty towards Malazan fans. A bit of a misunderstanding of why people say the handholding comments. Isn't intended to belittle but to invite.
Gatekeeping is lame, wherever it is found. I just haven't personally had that same experience with Malazan fans as the negative one portrayed here. It's too bad when it happens in any Fandom. I have adored SE's writing. The depth of his character arcs and lore is just something I have never experienced in quite this way. I see a lot of people chalking it up to bad writing. That is an opinion one can have, but I have had higher highs in books 3, 4, and 5 than I have had in maybe any other series. Hope more turn out to give it a shot. But totally get that the style does not gel for everybody.
@@DanExploresBooks unsurprisingly I agree with you 😄😄 I haven’t gotten to the Malazan part of this video yet but I love the fandom overall. Of course there are a few assholes but you know, there’s assholes everywhere, and the larger the group of people the more assholes there will be. Curious to see what Elliot has to say about it
I think it’s also important to talk about fanfiction and not just visual art when you consider the „being inspired to create“ aspect. 😊 Some fandoms produce a whole lot of written fanfiction. 😊
For me, I had good luck with most of these fandoms due to channels I watch. The TH-camrs (including yours) are all about positivity and being civil while respecting each other’s viewpoints. Fans return that in the comments. We may be passionate sometimes, but we consistently try to agree and disagree in a civil way and have a conversation. I like that. Where I have bad luck (and I can be like this sometimes too) is where someone hammers down on their opinions and does not try to be open minded to others.
I agree! discworld is simultaneously the most fun and relaxed fandom and also the most awful fandom (in a hilarious way). Everyone encourages new readers but they will yell at you if start chronologically, or with Guards Guards, or Mort, or Witches, etc. Essentially there is a ton of infighting as to what you should read first in this 41 book series lol
I get why you ranked it the way you did, but honestly after years of seeing petty fandom bullshit from both inside and out, I have a lot of appreciation and respect for fans that keep to themselves and mind their business 😂 esp when the content can be contentious (The Cruel Prince being a popular enemies to lovers series, it's a prime example of Discourse Target), it's very easy for a Productive conversation to turn sour VERY fast. so instead of having the same conversations/arguments seventeen times a day, it's easier to just respectfully disengage. my FAVORITE types of fandoms are the Sleeper Fans tho, which is especially common for old and/or obscure works. they don't have a visible collective community, but if you make merch for their thing they SHOW UP with SO much enthusiasm, like "oh my god you made a Thing for My Obscure Book/Manga/Movie/Etc??? you have my sword, I owe you my life" lmaooo
Good comments should be acknowledged and appreciated-so thanks for this one. It got me thinking a bit more deeply about conduct in internet spaces. I *_want_* to live in a world where folks are free to discuss whatever they like and vigorous debates help us all work out the good ideas from the bad … but the internet just isn't that world. Most of the tolerable places left seem to have robust spoken or unspoken rules about what topics are on the table. Maybe those sort of guidelines are just necessary to bring down the temperature to a range where people can comfortably coexist.
Loved the video and the honest (but kind) take on some of the popular fandoms! I’d love a part 2 with more!!😄 Dune, Game of Thrones, HP, LotR, Twilight, Eragon, Star Wars, Steven King, Jay Kristoff, Neil Gaiman, etc ☺️
I totally agree with where you put Leigh Bardugo's work!! one thing I find interesting though, and this is just my personal experience of course, but I feel like generally speaking the Shadow & Bone book trilogy brings out a more toxic side while the Six of Crows duology is relatively more nice and positive. wondering if this is other peoples' experiences as well? like you mentioned, there are lots if shipping wars that go on which many times is what has led to more negative interactions between people. I find this to really only be the case for the S&B books (and show ig) while fans of SOC are more chill about shipping discourse as most people just adore the ships which are set in place for them. has anyone experienced this differently?
((and just as an add-on that I didn't really wanna include in my previous comment as this gets into my personal opinion about a certain S&B ship haha)) this kinda goes into another aspect of toxicity in the S&B series since many fans will end up completely believing Alina should've ended up with the Darkling even though he's an abuser. personally I just find this really strange when these people will completely disregard anything other people tell them about this very problematic ship and instead thoroughly believe the Darkling was Alina's best choice. I can understand people who know and understand that this ship is very toxic but simply find it interesting, however, I've seen too many people who truly don't seem to comprehend the Darkling's abusive nature and will argue with others about it (which is a little alarming to say the least) but yeah idk, that's just my observation haha
I’ve seen similar things-almost to a t! So you’re definitely not alone :) I wonder if part of it comes down to SoC having multiple perspectives, and those perspective each representing different viewpoints well, and thus the fandom is more empathetic/varied? Idk!
Idk, while it's true that there is drama with the S&B ships (or mostly that there is a rift bw people who like Darkling/Alina and those who don't), some people who prefer or only like SoC can act very superior about it. Like it's impossible for them to praise SoC without saying negative things about The Grisha Trilogy. This got especially bad after season 2, when the writers talked about a possible SoC spinoff (next to a season 3 of S&B). The fandom is generally insecure about the future of the adaptation, so people feel it's unlikely for Netflix to greenlight both. So many SoC fans started to insist they should just cancel S&B "because nobody cares about those characters anyway" and "most people only watch for the Crows" Saying that a part of the fandom should be screwed over so you get what you want is just rude and the opposite of what a fandom community should be about.
As a big fan of VE Schwab, I have to agree lol there’s not really a sense of a “fandom” with her books but I will say, anytime I post about her books, I always have lovely conversations with others. And I think if there tends to be any kind of merchandise, it’s for shades of magic. I really don’t see much for her other books. Which is always so surprising!
I’m more of a fan of certain books of hers rather than a fan in general. I loved Vicious but my perception of it as a stand-alone has prevented me from trying Vengeful and I did not care for ExtraOrdinary. Did not like Addie or Gallant and found Datker Shades somewhat lacking. Not read her other stuff.
Sad to see Malazan down there with the Witcher fandom! In my experience, at least on places like Reddit, Malazan has been one of the best and most engaging communities. Witcher, WOT and LoTR are a toxic dumpster fire right now due to everyone losing their minds over the terrible adaptations.
It's odd with the Wheel of Time. Before the show I thought the fandom was incredibly reasonable. Now there are 2 extremes. 1) The toxic always negative people who attack individuals relating to the show and everything is doom and gloom, and 2) The toxic show can do no wrong people, who mob attack anyone on social media who voice any criticisms of the show. (I've been called some pretty nasty things for the mildest of criticisms on plot) I have to think both sides are a minority, but it stinks all the same and makes me hope for other stories I love to not get adapted.
34:20 long-ish rant ahead I had the same experience with you with the Fanderson with regards to book titles. Basically, I wasn't aware that referring to the SPs in their titles were a faux pas and I mistakenly referred to Tress by its initials in a post which the admins of the group I am in deleted. Take note: I used the abbreviations. Not the full title. So I made a new post airing my frustration and offering some sort of middle ground because I don't think saying TotES when you don't know what any of those letters mean would spoil anything and throughout the post, I have been called a gaslighter and an unempathic asshole, all while being gaslit and insulted in the threads. Then the admins went on to post passive aggressive posts about those who don't agree with their stance and then falsely accuse me as well and then ban me for 24 hours and close the comment section so I can't respond. I had ANOTHER interaction with the same admin, this time about the swag because enough people voted to treat them as non-spoilers, and some people, including the mods are (for the lack of a better word) whining about it. Even the post announcing the decision was passive aggressive. This time, I confronted him about silencing me and came with receipts and he responded by starting a new thread, falsely accusing me some more, and then kicking me out of the group. I only knew about his new accussations because I checked in with a different account. LOL
I had a good time in the Wheel of Time fandom for a few months before I started really noticing all the sexism underlying so many readers’ opinions on the female characters. When Mat is careless or rude or immature, readers give him a pass every single time. When Elayne or Egwene or Nynaeve are careless or rude or immature, they are apparently the most annoying vile unforgiveable characters ever written. Every thought they have and every action they take is raked over the coals by readers while the boys’ are seen as empathetic and allowed to be flawed. As a woman, it was absolutely unbearable to remain in the fandom. Especially because I LOVE Nynaeve and Elayne and I would waste so much energy trying to defend them to readers who insisted on seeing them in the worst light possible.
I grew to like Nynaeve slowly over the course of the books to be one of my favourite characters. 💜Although Verin is my favourite and she isn't even a main character.
I feel like we just need to utter the term, ‘SuperWhoLock’ for a bunch of us to recoil at the memories of easily one of the most toxic fandoms to exist. Dark days hahaha
I credit my almost entirely positive experience with the Sanderson fandom to the moderators at the 17th shard. They are so on top of it, ensuring that people keep discussions respectful. As a whole, I think the cosmere fans tends to "um, actually" each other a bit, but it really depends on your interests. WoT on the other hand, I've just been bashed in the face with people being really awful ever since the TV started production. I don't even want to talk about WoT online, even though I enjoy those books quite a bit.
That’s too bad-I’m sorry the show has brought that out in the fandom. And that’s great about the moderators for the 17th shard! Haha, the “um, actually” point is very accurate
I had to leave Stormlight Archive circles cause 😳. I've read and enjoyed most of the Cosmere books but I have complaints and I think Brandon Sanderson is great but perhaps a little overhyped, and god forbid a Sanderson fan hears anyone say anything like that about their precious Sanderson lol
Great video, obv not going to have 1:1 experiences but i think this roughly lines up with how i feel (also the final fantasy mention was a nice surprise!) a bit of a niche series, but one of the nicest fandoms I've encountered is the tarot sequence, everyone is so lovely and supportive, with a fandom and author thats super receptive to criticism, and one of the rare times i feel the found family vibes in the books are actually reflected in the fandom. it lowkey makes me emotional haha. also has a surprising amount of art/fics/etc. for a fandom so small! one of the worst was easily Dresden Files sadly, i am sure there's lovely fans out there, but most of what I've experienced is dimissive and condescending to criticism, bashing on *other series* for daring to have similar elements (often without even reading them!), extremely rude to minority groups (and speaking as a dude, kind of misogynistic), and honestly I'm almost scared to write this in case they find me here, lol
My favorite series is The Locked Tomb series (gideon the ninth). I'm not super active in the fandom, but from what i've seen, it's a pretty cool fandom. The fanart and cosplay people have done are cool as hell. I actually have a fanart of one of my favorite characters as my lock screen on my phone bc I love it so much!
The Locked Tomb fandom is honestly one of the most fandoms I've ever been a part of. It's everyone being excited about puzzles and theories and sharing theories back and forth and making amazing art.
Also, one fandom you didn't add: Tolkien's. Say anything less than praising the trilogy as a godsend and they would descend on you with the fury of a thousand balrogs. Meanwhile, Silmarillion, which is Tolkien's ACTUAL passion project, is a divisive book for them.
I like your transparency. You are the first one who is talking about this. I practically agree with everything you said, especially about the Cosmere fandom. Even if it’s a little sad.
I’ve seen others discuss this before, but maybe I’m thinking more about my private conversations? 🤔 regardless, I wish collectively we could do a better job (and by we, I mean those of us who are a part of any kind of fandom) of being kind to one another
Hey, I'm sorry you've had that experience with the Malazan fandom. It's my all-time favorite series and I'm disappointed that the message of it hasn't been upheld across the board by its readers.
I feel for Robin Hobb that if someone has a critisism, us fans go like: "Yeah, that's fair. But that's why I like it, though" Also, I need more FFX or FFVII inspired jewellery. T^T there really isn't enough fanart for this fandom.
I really think you are really off on the Malazan fandom. A few vocal trolls does not a fandom make. Being also a huge Jordan/Sanderson fan, i find the Stormlight fandom far more toxic on a regular basis. Yeah, there is a very small vocal minority of Malazan trolls that hang out on r/books, but come by the Malazan subreddit, and you'll find it mostly chill and laid back. The trolls usually get downvoted to oblivion, and most of us get that not all books are for everyone and appreciate that someone at least gave it a go. Conversely, I got absolutely torched on the stormlight subreddit when I said I found RoW boring because of the whole Die Hard with sad-boy John McClain plot line and only finished it for juicy Cosmere drops.
I LOVE the Witcher (all versions, played games then read books then watched show) and it’s one of the worst fandoms I’ve seen… and I’ve been in fandom spaces (and fandoms with multiple adaptations) a long time. I like the show for what it is but god forbid you say that anywhere or people will tell you you’re dumb because you like something they don’t? It’s bizarre. Thanks for bringing awareness to the fact that some fandom spaces are pretty toxic. Also agree that the ACOTAR fandom seems pretty ok overall (I’ve only dipped my toe into that space).
It is really a terrible fandom, sadly. I get being really bummed about an adaptation not being what you hoped-that’s basically how I feel about the Netflix adaptation-but luckily we still have the games and the books. Being horribly cruel and insulting to anyone who likes the show is pointless. I’m sorry you’ve also had negative experiences!
Unfortunately these people don’t understand what the story really is about which baffles me. The books’ premise is to deal with issues of gender, race, inequality, xenophobia but all some people can see is the man with a sword 😅
Interesting topic! I am a voracious reader that doesn't really take time with socializing, but I feel like a part of Vorkosigan's fandom (or, broader, most works of Bujold), and was a happy little Potterhead for nostalgic reasons before the whole thing started going downhill (HP and The Cursed Child marking the spot). I kept putting off Malazan because of some stuff I've seen the fandom do, actually. I started it when a friend of mine encouraged me, and spoke critically about it. So, fandoms really do have an impact on readers behavior. Now, my experience with Malazan fandom is pretty nice, but I think it also has to do with moderators on r/Fantasy who quickly deal with the bad apples. It's interesting to see the topic from your perspective, because you are literally putting yourself out there. I usually appreciate your measured tone (even if I think you could sometimes be more witty, like in your Fourth Wing video), but I've sometimes wondered if you had some bad experience that made you wary of being more direct.
I personally would have ranked Maas Fandom, because it's not just the ACoTaR it's all her books, way lower. I have the worst interactions with them. I'm all for people reading what you want, but her style of writing and the love interests leave a lot to be desired. But they can't accept that there are issues and put her on this untouchable pedestals. Which is why when you meet the rare reader who is like "Her stories are trash, but it's the kind of trash I love." I find it so funny. Like read what you want but realize there are issues and read it anyways.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I might add that I don’t think people HAVE to say they think the series has issues or that it’s bad, but I absolutely think people need to allow other people to have those opinions without being rude, condescending, or outright horrible to them
Very much this. I’m a Maas fan, but her books are full of issues (and legitimate representation issues). There is very little space to discuss these issues within the fandom
I’m exactly the kind of reader who loves trashy romance. I do see the problems but I don’t really care about that in these kind of stories, it’s more about enjoying the ride than some deep thoughts from the author. It’s not like I would want something like that in my real life. It’s basically like “movies for adults” but with tension, and you don’t really expect great stories from those. And part of the fun is watching rant videos after I read those books. But I have to say that some of the die hard fans can act like a bunch of babies - not Maas but similar kind of story is in the series From Blood and Ash from J.L. Armentrout. There is a certain scene in 4th book (that was foreshadowed intensely) where fans are divided, and they are giving it one star reviews because of it (and sometimes they changed it from 5 stars because they gave it ranking before it was released). Honestly, the way these fans (or ex fans at this point I guess) act is pure comedy to me.
@@Deni-mt9bj I love trashy romance too, but that enjoyment is reduced when there are harmful representations in the text. I’m also of the opinion that we should be critically engaging with all the media we consume.
I'm so glad I'm in my own little world then when it comes to The Witcher. I read the whole series because I wanted to see where the show and video game came from. Mind you I've only seen the first season of the show and clips of the games. But I was curious enough. Now it's one of my favorite series. And when someone doesn't like the show, or books, or whatever I'm cool with it. I know and understand everyone has their own taste. Does this mean I'm likely in the minority of this fandom? Yeah probably.
Wouldn't that be nice! 😅 I'm the same way with SJM. I'm in the minority there also cuz I can see where criticisms are, know it's not for everyone, etc. And I enjoy them
You're not the only one. I totally understand the take on fandom. I love the books and games, what they writers did with characters in S2 pretty much killed any interest in the show. But I have loads of friends who like it and that's absolutely fine.
Did you look at age of those that are prominent in the fandom? The middle and lower ranks seem to be a bit of an older/experienced reading group than the overall of the other groups. Also, the experience of the fantasy reader plays a part (ie someone who has been in the genre for a long time). More starter places for Fantasy tend to appeal to people that are going to passionate about their “first” or early experience that made them fall in love with the genre. They want everyone to fall in love with their series too.
I think it depends on individuals. There are teenagers who sound mature and make you think you are debating with an adult, which is fine, but some can be just as mean as the adults. And some adults act like they are children. So do agree that each fandom has a different age range, but feel like it is a case by case basis.
Perhaps, but I'd argue that ACOTAR/SJM would fall in a similar category as those higher tier fandoms in that regard--a springboard fantasy romance for younger or more casual readers, and appeals to a wide audience--and parts of that fandom are toxic af.
I think it’s possible age could play a role! From my personal experiences-which are obviously not going to be shared by everyone-I’ve seen more negativity from adults. I wonder if that’s drastically different for people who use TikTok more, though 🤔
I'm sorry you feel that about the Malazan community. I've only seen the opposite. There are some bad apples, but there are in every community. Any comment of the complexity or focus needed always seemed helpful to me, so potential new readers would know what they're getting into, rather than insulting...
Neat video. I don't think I've seen this done before, and I appreciated the presentation. I now avoid fandom spaces for pretty much everything I read. I've run into way too many toxic people for way too many authors/series/genres to continue investing time trying to engage with them. Poor fandom behavior so obnoxious that I still end up seeing it definitely prejudices me against picking up a book, as does over-zealous proselytizing. I've never read something because someone told me not liking it made me unintelligent/bigoted/generally a bad person, or because someone gushed at me for half an hour that it was a work of genius with such rich themes and deep characters. I think a lot of enthusiastic fans need to work on their elevator pitches. Every recommendation that's gotten me to immediately pick up a book has been a brief, concrete description that offers a hook.
I am certainly guilty of gushing when I love something 😆 I completely understand why you’d want to avoid fandom culture; the pros and the cons can lead to certain levels of fanaticism that are uncomfortable, especially when you don’t match the level of enthusiasm
I know this is more of a book tier but since you added Final Fantasy fandom i just want to give a shoutout to the Neverwinter Nights 1 fandom communities. 💞 I've mainly only had positive and lovely interactions with people from it over the years. (specifically the multiplayer roleplaying communities for different servers) and made a lot of friends since i first started playing the game twenty years ago. A few communities still exists from those days even! And been engaging and helpful to new players.
I really hope fourth wing stays a fun welcoming community I loved the video you made about fourth wing and im glad that the community reacted positively your video
I can’t help but notice that the lower tier is fandoms featuring male Uber powerful main characters and the upper mostly female or not classically strong males. I also wonder if the gender of the authors might attracts or deter the most toxic profiles of fans…
This video reminded me of the time when I was posting my top ten books of the year and I put Red Rising in this list but then mentioned how I thought Darrow, because he's a teenager and doesn't know much about the outside world, was really annoying in his attitude sometimes. Someone wrote an entire dissertation in my Instagram comments about how Darrow was supposed to be written that way and how dare I criticize Pierce Brown. I was baffled that I was praising a book and said one tiny negative thing and got absolutely annihilated for it. I agreed with everything they wrote in the comment but they were so absolutely rude about it and I am still salty today.
I love The Witcher ever since I first read it almost 20 years ago. I fell in love but I feel so alone in it, I feel like all those horrible people in the fandom didn’t understand what they actually read. This book series has some of the strongest, most powerful messages, about feminism under patriarchy, racism, parenthood, sexuality, sa, love, toxicity, coming of age struggles. I don’t understand where the hatred is coming from - did we read the same books? I’m sorry for what you and any other person experienced with this fandom, not because I feel somehow responsible, but because no one should experience something like that. I just feel sad about it. I’m lucky because I’m in my own bubble with nice people, but I don’t discuss the series (or a tv show) on the internet.
Interesting choices of fandoms! Its cool to see what other fandoms are out there. Im part of the harry potter fandom and phantom of the opera fandom and starting to get into Howls moving Castle but i stay away from the negativity but the HP fandom is both ways either extremely toxic but most people i talk to are totally accepting and have a really fun time.
My experience with Final Fantasy fandom has been super varied because there tend to be sub-fandoms for each game as well as the broader fandom of the whole series. FF7 especially is practically a franchise of its own with a huge fanbase, and I've had a pretty mixed experience with it. Some people are super great and super excited about the remake (or respectful about it if they don't like it), and there's some amazing fanart and fanfiction. On the other hand, some people can be quite elitist about disliking the remake and the direction its taken with the story. There's also been some pretty bad misogyny such as fans being genuinely outraged that they didn't think Tifa's boobs were 'big enough' in the remake, which I hate as a female fan. The shipping culture with people arguing about the Cloud/Tifa/Aerith love triangle can be pretty terrible and misogynistic as well.
I find that the worst fandoms I have interacted with are LOTR and ASOIAF - they both get really mad if you misremember some minor character that was mentioned literally once. Or, in the case of ASOIAF, have a theory that slightly differentiates from their usual ones. I'm also slightly terrified of Cassandra Clare's fans, because they do NOT take criticism of those books well. On the flip side, the best fandom in my opinion is Discworld. It's just good vibes all around.
People commenting on the wheel of time tv series was right though. The people working on it actively tried to ruin and destroy the books legacy. They even said that they disliked the source material similar to netflix witcher.
@@viktorr7115 why logically, would any producers not want the readers to watch it seeing as they’re the main target viewership? I think they just didn’t care enough to make it properly but they’re too money hungry to not want their main viewership to watch out of spitefulness
@@t0ebeans True it does not make sense but here we are. Showrunners and writes for the witcher hated the books and though they were better than them and the people that like them. Thats how the show became all about Ciri and Yennifer. Less about Geralt for every episode and in the end Cavill had enough.
I think you can be critical of the shows-I definitely am-without saying the writers should “burn in hell” which is among the more mild things I’ve seen
As a wheel of time fan, I knew it was gonna be low. I once made a post in the subreddit about how I didn’t like mat and people literally commented spoilers because mat is one of the most liked characters.
this is such a refreshing video, thank you :) I find this topic very interesting and there are more fantasy book fandoms I would love to see tiered as well. I find it also very interesting to see how the fantasy community responds to problematic writers, such as David Edding (child abuse), Marion Zimmer Bradley (children sexual abuse) and J.K. Rowling (working against trans rights). Some readers have no problem separate the writer from their work while other would never buy or read their books. And both parties often have problems with the others opinions
While I don't know anything about David Edding, I'd ask you to consider the gravity of how this paragraph is written. MZB was accused of HEINOUS crimes - felony offenses (and I believe her accuser). J.K Rowling has opinions which are unpopular (in some circles). These things are WORLDS APART - but the way you've constructed this paragraph, they are lumped together as if they are all similar cases. This is the problem with lumping everyone in a "problematic" category" - people that don't know much about each case will see them "problematized" and judge them without looking into each case separately.
words wielded as a weapon can be extremely dangerous, especially if the speaker has enormous audience and uses many occasions to belittle a certain minority. From my standpoint that is problematic, you don't have to agree with me. I'm not sure if you are mean that I "don't know much" about this, but as a parent of a trans child I know enough. There is a reason why most BookTubers never mention her books anymore
Idk if your child themselves is a book fan, but if it means anything at all-even though I’m just some random derpy girl who makes goofy book videos-they are welcome here! 💗
The amount of Dalinar apologia and open hostility towards Moash and anyone who shows even a single ounce of empathy towards his situation in the Fanderson is ASTOUNDING. Especially the cognitive dissonance. They can excuse a war criminal's war crimes but are ready to go up in arms against a brainwashed assassin doing brainwashed assassin things. It always amazes me.
Man. I belong to some garbage fandoms XD Totally agree though. Love me some Lightbringer, WoT, and Stormlight lol. I haven’t interacted with a lot of other fans though… But always down to talk about them :)
Couldn’t agree more with this list. I’m a huge WoT fan and have seen quite a few not so nice. I always go with “not everything clicks for everyone and that’s ok that the whole fun of reading as long as you’re having fun!” I remember getting bashed for criticism of sandersons work and I’m a big fan of his too. So odd to me to be nasty to people.
Ah, I’m sorry you’ve also seen/had negative interactions in some of these fandoms. I too find it odd when people choose to be hateful or unkind to such extreme degrees
When in comes to movie/tv adaptations, book fandoms are the worst usually, the amount of nit picky details they get mad about is laughable (eye color, actors's height...). I get that books have special place in someone's heart and nothing can do it justice blah blah blah but then just choose not to watch it and move on with your life!
I'm really glad to see someone acknowledge how toxic some of the SA Fandom is, but im SHOCKED you put Cosmere so high. Cosmere fans are some of the meanest people I've ever met online. On the other hand I'm also shocked to see WoT so low. I've never met a Fandom more welcoming than this one. Also kinda surprised to not see LotR mentioned. Obviously everyone has a different experiences and I appreciate the video
The Final Fantasy fandom is pretty bad and circlejerky lol. And Arcane fans can't take critisism at all. In my experience any fandom that's large and draws a passionate fanbase will inevitably have great and terrible parts. I'm willing to bet when First Law gets an adapation, it will become just as bad any other.
Yes, especially if the First law adaptation will be as bad as the Wheel of time adaptation. I'd like to see all this positive fandoms facing a really bad adaptation
Great video El! You’re unfortunately correct about Malazan. It does attract a fandom that has a superiority complex. Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe attracts a similar crowd. I’ve had mostly negative responses to my DNF of that series, with the exception of a few friends who are really nice about it.
It's funny that the Brent Weeks fandom can not handle criticism, the last book is basically a perfect example for how to not end a series. It's crazy how much you can pick it apart.
Funnily enough I just got a notification of getting a reply on a three(!) year old comment about The Witcher books lol :D It began with "some people see sexism everywhere because universities indoctinate them to do so" I didn't read further, there's just no point in debating people like this. (The comment was about how I think the author criticises sexism in the books but he also falls into the trap himself, particularly with the objectiying descriptions of female characters). I even quit all Witcher subreddits it was so toxic there. Also a huge part of the fandom is absolutely horrible towards the showrunner and the actress who plays Yennefer, and none of is constructive criticism, a lot of it is plain sexist (and sometimes racist) comments. Yet many of them lose it when someone criticises the depiction of women in the series or dares to say there are sexist elements. People in glass houses...
I thought this video was so interesting. I don't really interact with fandoms much myself, I just read books, like the stuff I like and don't worry too much about it. The only additionial content I consume is booktube (for book discussions and recs). So I'm completely baffled by the concept of insulting people just because they don't agree with my taste. What I'm wondering though is how involved some of these authors are in their fandoms and how much influence they might have of the direction their fandoms take. The only one I really know of from your list is Sanderson, who is really involved and active, but as far as I have seen always polite and respectful. But apparently he still doesn't have the nicest of fandoms (at least for Stormlight).
I know SE is pretty involved with the Malazan fandom, though I wouldn’t say it’s quite as much as Sanderson. It would be interesting to see how the interactions themselves set a precedent in general, though
fandom size for sure. Negative voices tend to be the loudest, sadly. So I imagine with more people there will always be more drama and a lot more know-it-alls 🫣😅 not sure about age though 🤔 I've seen some savage petty people on both sides 😔 i do think older people tend to get meaner? probably because of nostalgia too, but that's no excuses for treating other fans poorly. I'm thinking lotr and wot fandoms when the tv shows dropped 😂 tho both shows were pretty bad...
There could be a correlation. As the other commenters mentioned, and I think I said something similar in the video, the bigger the fandom, the louder the negativity becomes. Age is harder to pin down, as I’ve seen young, middle-aged, and older individuals behave poorly-obviously I’ve seen kindness as well! It just seems more varied
Loved this! If you do a part 2.... please look into the fandoms of: Supernatural (such a fun and awesome fandom), Game of Thrones, HP, Shadowhunters, Star Wars, Pokemon, LOTR.... that should get ya started lol :)
I love Marissa Meyer fans. I didnt like one of her series, the Renegades, but everyone was still so welcoming. They're all so eccited and happy!! Just as fun as the books :)
I have not read from all of those you mentioned, so I could be off on this. However, it appears that the more fantasy or deeper, more adult the series is , the more likely you will get those people who, shall I say, "go all in"? Meaning, they are the ones who likely resemble how the Star Wars fans are? And I would assume that the more you submerge your life in a fandom, the more you are willing to, for lack of words, defend it? Which is why I think you might get people who would be more nasty because you're not just criticizing the work of the series but in part, them.
I think there’s certainly something to how personally people can take criticisms of their favorite things. Art can have a profound impact on our lives, so in a way I can see why someone would hold it so dearly. I think the problems arise when people don’t reflect on the sensitivity they have toward any bit of criticism someone else might have toward the thing they like 😅
Ive only had good experiences with the malazan fandom, but im sorry you haven't. This probably depends on which corner of the internet we went to. I can totally understand how if you were struggling with the first book, which is very common, and went looking for encouragement or a little help you might not find, which can be frustrating. I have also noticed the compassion theme you mentioned, hopefully those readers can integrate those lessons better on their next reread 😉
Well.. I guess im just not that extroverted online... Ive just not had any particularly negative experience in any of these fandoms... Like, when if ever, i go into the reddits and stuff its mostly just to find clarification on a certain plot point or character background or something like that... So idk maybe that particular aspect of fandoms isnt that toxic? I guess i should just feel lucky ive not had many, if any sour experiences. :) but your vid was definitely interesting!
The Farseer Trilogy might even have three different illustrated editions, one from Folio Society, one from Del Ray, and one (I think is illustrated) by Subterranean Press.
RotE has amazing fans, I do feel like everyone who loves the books (like I do) totally respects that they might not work for everyone, but when they work they REALLY WORK :D
Honestly, in my experience, the LotR fandom has been the worst. I am not a fan of the LotR and when I mention that their fandom (online and irl) just calls me an idiot and my opinion bullsh*t. I think the Cosmere fandom is great though!
You and I had vastly different experience with Malazan Fandom... Im really sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with them. It took me a year to finished Malazan... through out the year malazan subreddit was my lifeline... they were some of the nicest and helpful people i have encounterd in fandoms..
You forgot the Animal Crossing fandom. It’s a really solid fandom who still watch gaming streams of it four years after the newest game. In my experience it’s a super positive and welcoming fandom.
I wasn't aware how intense the toxic elements of the Tolkien fandom (or Wheel of Time, Witcher) could be until the shows were announced. From announcement and persisting today, it has just been awful. It's nice to see other fandoms of literature that's adapted to TV remain somewhat positive (eg The Magicians, Shadow & Bone)
I had some serious rose tinted glasses on where the Tolkien fandom is concerned for most of my life because it was one of my first as a kid. But man did I get one rude ass wake up call! XD There was definitely a whole to criticize about the show but the frothing at the mouth vitriol that was mindlessly outpouring all over the place genuinely caught me so off guard.
I'm guessing the Abercrombie (and probably Schwabb) fans are looking at the books more like literature than pop culture. Like you don't really have a Salman Rushdie or Kazuo Ishiguro "fandom," though obviously both writers have fans.
It makes me sad that you’ve had a bad experience with the WoT fandom. They are truly so excited and are welcoming hate the bad people ruined it with the show stuff. The worst experience I’ve had was with Promise of Blood. I put up a video kinda ranting about the book and I had a three part comment from 1 guy basically telling me I was a dumb woman, in not so nice words. Lol 😂
I have been harassed online with messages calling me fat and asking how much I weigh, and calling me a fat feminist from Lotr fans after defending the diversity in Rings of Power. Granted these people were obviously racist and sexist and I judge them as individuals, but my goodness they made me never want to engage with the online Lotr fandom. I am a big VE Schwab and RF Kuang fan. I think RF Kuang fans can be a bit harsh but a lot of her themes have to do with harmful ignorance, so I get it, and think they are more patient than most. I have never met or talked a VE Schwab fan that wasn’t kind. I also love Stephanie Garber and Marissa Meyer’s works and have had no bad experiences with them. Marissa Meyer’s books are so sweet so how can you be an a-hole if you like her books? Even Renegades, which can be pretty dark at times, has an overall optimistic message. I saw Stephanie Garber at Yallwest last year and she was great.
Oh my gosh that's awful! I had generally positive experiences with the lotr fandom until Rings of Power was announced. That show seemed to bring out the worst side of the fandom. I also stopped engaging with the fandom at that time
I’m sorry you had to deal with that. I’ll never understand that level of unkindness. I’m glad some of the other fandoms have been much better for you though!
I was talking to my husband about the Arcane part of this video because he has been playing league since he was a kid, and he is now almost 30 😮😂 he said there is a big difference between the players that just play and the ones that really care about the lore and backstory. The ones that care about the lore are people who really loved that arcane reached so many people and they could all share in the excitement of it. They also tend to be the people who want to bring people over to the game and teach them. He notices that the people who dont care about the lore tend to be the ones who fill the game with negativity. Also curious where you would place Red Rising. I think you kind of have to seek out Red Rising fandom but ive never been in such a chill and relaxed group of people who actually seem to like when people have different takes on things
Yeah, I wish you had included Jim Butcher fans because every single interaction I’ve had with them has been negative. Even just mentioning casually ‘well I’m not really that interested’ even before I’d read the series had people coming for my throat. And I read the first book afterward and then couldn’t read the second. Ofc they defend the sexism of Harry and this series and the author being really weird about women in his personal life 🥲
The most wholesome (that sounds weird) fandom to date for me is the Hannibal (tv-series) fandom. Most of the things created by that fandom is utterly disturbing. Creative but so so dark... Everything comes very much with a 'Dead Dove Do Not Eat' label. But they fully acknowledge that they create some dark things and are just so lovely to each other! I don't think I've ever saw a full on fight between creators, just spiritly discussions. I will never ever forget to check the content tags though when it comes to Hannibal. Once was enough...
I don't get involved in any fandoms so this was a pretty interesting video. I personally would have thought Final Fantasy would have been much worse and Stormlight would be way better. And the Witcher... I've only read the books and played the games but I never would have expected it to have a negative fanbase. Also, I would have thought Arcane would have a pretty bad fanbase because of League. I personally couldn't make it through the series because of one single thing that I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with.
While I agree about what you said about The Grishaverse/Leigh Bardugo fandom for the most part, there is some weird stuff though when you're really into the fandom (which I am). (tw for abuse) Not too long ago Leigh Bardugo opened up about being in an abusive relationship in the past and being in a bad place during the time she wrote Shadow and Bone (the first book). She doesn't outright say that the Darkling is based on this person or relationship, but a lot of the themes and subject matter in her works could be as authors are affected by their personal life and experiences. One would expect the fandom to be sympathetic, and most people were, some Darklinas (Darkling/Alina shippers) had unkind things to say about Leigh. Already, many of them were upset at the King of Scars duology, which doesn't shy away from showing how much suffering the Darkling's deeds have caused. Many Darkling fans like to absolve him of guilt and act like he's not that bad. So obviously this did not go down well, and to this day I still see negative comments about Leigh and her "retconning The Darkling to be a villain" and "using her experience with abuse to justify turning The Darkling into the villain." Which is just horrible, but I'm not making this up sadly. It seems to me that a huge part of Darklina fans are Darklina fans only and not Grishaverse fans. Which is fine in itself, but it can lead to charged interactions with fans who don't agree with them, really don't support their ship or dare to talk about The Darkling as a villain. This is the crux of the issue, for years Darklina shippers sort of pretended that the Darkling is only Alina's love interest and not the villain of the entire series. So when further installments reinforce that he is indeed BAD, many of them didn't cope with it well. And this can lead to a lot of disagreements and discourse. And no wonder, it's hard to find common ground with readers who deliberately misinterpret huge chunks of the books to stan their fave, and get mad at the author when she doesn't validate their headcanon. And Leigh Bardugo has definitely gotten more vocal about Darklina not being a healthy and aspirational ship in interviews and such (aside from alrady writing it in the books).
Im shocked you didnt place acotar in the last tier. I think they are the worst because they not only fight with other people but they fight with each other and people that should be ""on their side" like i feel really sorry for anyone that will be a part of the show if it actually happens and ive seen them treating artist like shit for drawing something inoffensive about the series that they didnt like countless of times. and the subfandoms are always fighting each other and each of them think they are better than the others but they are all the same. Just a bunch of awfull people, honestly. The only nice people i know that are part of the fandon they are not really active on it. But im glad that you had an better experience with them lol (even tho it was not that great either)
I’ve seen some of what you’ve mentioned regarding artists, and it’s very disheartening. I hope what you described with the show doesn’t happen, but idk, that’s probably asking too much 😕 The ones I put on the bottom also have what you mentioned with the infighting. With Malazan in particular, I know people that are in the fandom, but won’t even mention certain criticisms publicly because of how the fandom treats them
@@ebnovels ahh i understand! i guess i just haven't seen much of those other fanbases. im just shocked to think of the existence of one worse than acotar's
As a wheel of time fan I get the ranking of the fandom. I love the books, I love the characters, but there’s always been this element in community that has always been a bit toxic, though tbh I’ve never considered myself part of the fandom. I just quietly enjoy it and talk with friends in it. And I think that’s kind of it. On individual basis every person I’ve known in person who’s read them are great, kind, and like you said love to discuss stuff. Then you move broader and it’s a mess, and the books are this messy thing, from moral ambiguity to certain stances on gender/sex. Most of that is intentional and meant to be “look what ruins these people” and I think the fandom sort of misses that point and instead embraces the problematic. At least the vocal ones. And are prone to just defending everything because they like one bit of it. I’m just quietly here to discuss everything from magic systems, character arcs, plot direction, impactful moments, etc. And just do not look anywhere online at broader community.
I read Fourth Wing and liked it but didn't love it but I'm having so much fun seeing those who loved it hype it up! I have been starting to see more and more artwork. Great fandom so far. Hope it stays that way but I think it will!
@Elliot Brooks That totally makes sense. I thought all your takes were pretty spot on with what I've experienced personally. It's interesting, I've always been a big fantasy fan but I've never really been a part of a Fandom or community of any of the series I love.
I feel like when a book gets an adaptation, the most toxic side of the fandom comes out. It's really disappointing, especially for fandoms that I otherwise typically enjoy. The Shadow and Bone fandom seems to be much better in that regard than most fandoms I've interacted with. They were generally positive when the show was coming out, even when they had critiques of the show
Agreed. I wonder if the original author being directly involved in the adaptation really helps reduce the trend towards toxicity. In other adaptations, the fans can leap to "the adaptors are destroying the memory of the author and have never even read the books!" Can't really say that when Bardugo is writing the adaptations herself.
I think that was because the writers didn’t go away from its original material and stayed quite true to the books and also the author was very much involved and that doesn’t happen with a lot of books unfortunately which why a lot of fans get angry about
Felt that way with wheel of time. The Fandom felt really great when I started reading but the second the show came out I felt a 180 degree shift and now all I see is the negative everywhere
Yeah same, i was thinking that... I loved the whell of time books.. When the series came out I watched a couple episodes... Didnt particularly like. But, sad as i was about not getting the adaptation i wanted, that just meant it wasnt a show id be watching... But i feel some people that didnt like it still watched just to be hatefull about it, and well... Thats not alright
The worst thing is when it’s something you are a huge fan of, and the fandom is soooooo toxic. 😭💀
Sadly, the ACOTAR fandom will become even WORSE at any news of the future tv show because actors won’t look exactly like the character or the plot line not following any exact detail. Just how the Witcher fandom also became worse after the release of the tv show. But what I dislike about the Witcher fandom is that they say a lot of gross things about women, like the actresses or even women sexualizing Henry Cavil. These fans are so toxic that Henry doesn’t post on his instagram as much anymore, and he had to make a post defending his relationship.
I hope that doesn’t happen for ACOTAR fans, but I could see it being an issue, especially if the male cast members aren’t deemed “hot enough” by the fandom (which would be horrible)
I feel like nobody advertises they are Joe Abercrombie fans because if they do, their friends and family will try to get them help or therapy.
omg 😂
😂true. Omg joe is my top 3
Exactly. I personally think that Glokta is endearing, and that is definitely a sign that I have issues 🤣
I felt so seen with this coment 😂
@@sophiel.7930
Some fandoms are big enough that your experience of them can depend on which branch you encounter. I'd say LOTR is one, and even more so HP - back when I was part of the active fandom years ago there were sites and forums I would go to where everyone was lovely, and others where it was the complete opposite.
Yeah, I wonder if the rise of the internet in general has had a big impact, because I’ve heard similar things about stories that are nostalgic to those of us who were teens when the internet was first becoming more popular
I gotta throw the Malazan Community some love here. They have been great to me. The not holding hands thing is a genuine feeling of why they love the series. There is a lot of discovery it offers. I don't think they are trying to put people down or call people dumb. I feel like calling that out as mean or elitist might be missing some of the intent behind the thing they are really saying they love about the series. But now that it is brought up I could totally see how it would come off that way.
They have been A+ with me as a new reader with my struggles and criticisms with the series and I have only seen them open up and be welcoming to people giving the series a shot. They have really been super kind. Gotta throw them some love here. Some might use that comment to mock, but in my experience that comment comes from a genuine place about the series they are excited for and not about calling people dumb. This felt like a bit of an unfair portrayal of that particular thing that has them really loving a series.
Yeah I've had nothing but a great time with the community, along with Erikson himself with how often he speaks about the books. "Not holding your hand" is a phrase used ad nauseam and I understand how irritating it is hearing the same thing constantly...but it's not an insult nor a knock on someone's intelligence. It's just a fact about the series that could hopefully help change your expectations and how you read it. It's not written the same as most fantasy so don't read it as though it IS most fantasy and then say it's just bad writing. I've also seen countless times of massive fans understanding why others don't want to read it. Having it on the very bottom right next to the Witcher fans where she said they are disgusting humans beings seems to be a bit of an over reaction.
@@wherespookie1ight. The portrayal of that handholding comment felt a little bit like texting something to a spouse and she reads it with some extra stank that totally misunderstands the intent behind the original comment. I do not get the same impolite subtext behind it but I totally get where somebody could take it that way.
Had to throw some love out to some of the nicest people I have come across.
Felt a bit nasty towards Malazan fans. A bit of a misunderstanding of why people say the handholding comments. Isn't intended to belittle but to invite.
Gatekeeping is lame, wherever it is found. I just haven't personally had that same experience with Malazan fans as the negative one portrayed here. It's too bad when it happens in any Fandom.
I have adored SE's writing. The depth of his character arcs and lore is just something I have never experienced in quite this way. I see a lot of people chalking it up to bad writing. That is an opinion one can have, but I have had higher highs in books 3, 4, and 5 than I have had in maybe any other series. Hope more turn out to give it a shot. But totally get that the style does not gel for everybody.
@@DanExploresBooks unsurprisingly I agree with you 😄😄 I haven’t gotten to the Malazan part of this video yet but I love the fandom overall. Of course there are a few assholes but you know, there’s assholes everywhere, and the larger the group of people the more assholes there will be. Curious to see what Elliot has to say about it
I think it’s also important to talk about fanfiction and not just visual art when you consider the „being inspired to create“ aspect. 😊 Some fandoms produce a whole lot of written fanfiction. 😊
For me, I had good luck with most of these fandoms due to channels I watch.
The TH-camrs (including yours) are all about positivity and being civil while respecting each other’s viewpoints.
Fans return that in the comments. We may be passionate sometimes, but we consistently try to agree and disagree in a civil way and have a conversation. I like that.
Where I have bad luck (and I can be like this sometimes too) is where someone hammers down on their opinions and does not try to be open minded to others.
Yeah, I think an unwillingness to hear a different opinions says a lot 😅
Discworld fandom is the best apart from when it comes to debating reading order.😅
I agree! discworld is simultaneously the most fun and relaxed fandom and also the most awful fandom (in a hilarious way).
Everyone encourages new readers but they will yell at you if start chronologically, or with Guards Guards, or Mort, or Witches, etc. Essentially there is a ton of infighting as to what you should read first in this 41 book series lol
@@koboldmartian4063 hahaha 🤣 I'm a publication order supporter 😁
@@wolervine how dare you. you're wrong. And you should feel bad.
@@koboldmartian4063 I fully support your right to be mad. But I'm right.
@@wolervine that’s the only wrong answer hahaha
I get why you ranked it the way you did, but honestly after years of seeing petty fandom bullshit from both inside and out, I have a lot of appreciation and respect for fans that keep to themselves and mind their business 😂 esp when the content can be contentious (The Cruel Prince being a popular enemies to lovers series, it's a prime example of Discourse Target), it's very easy for a Productive conversation to turn sour VERY fast. so instead of having the same conversations/arguments seventeen times a day, it's easier to just respectfully disengage.
my FAVORITE types of fandoms are the Sleeper Fans tho, which is especially common for old and/or obscure works. they don't have a visible collective community, but if you make merch for their thing they SHOW UP with SO much enthusiasm, like "oh my god you made a Thing for My Obscure Book/Manga/Movie/Etc??? you have my sword, I owe you my life" lmaooo
Good comments should be acknowledged and appreciated-so thanks for this one. It got me thinking a bit more deeply about conduct in internet spaces. I *_want_* to live in a world where folks are free to discuss whatever they like and vigorous debates help us all work out the good ideas from the bad … but the internet just isn't that world.
Most of the tolerable places left seem to have robust spoken or unspoken rules about what topics are on the table. Maybe those sort of guidelines are just necessary to bring down the temperature to a range where people can comfortably coexist.
Loved the video and the honest (but kind) take on some of the popular fandoms! I’d love a part 2 with more!!😄
Dune, Game of Thrones, HP, LotR, Twilight, Eragon, Star Wars, Steven King, Jay Kristoff, Neil Gaiman, etc ☺️
I totally agree with where you put Leigh Bardugo's work!!
one thing I find interesting though, and this is just my personal experience of course, but I feel like generally speaking the Shadow & Bone book trilogy brings out a more toxic side while the Six of Crows duology is relatively more nice and positive. wondering if this is other peoples' experiences as well?
like you mentioned, there are lots if shipping wars that go on which many times is what has led to more negative interactions between people. I find this to really only be the case for the S&B books (and show ig) while fans of SOC are more chill about shipping discourse as most people just adore the ships which are set in place for them. has anyone experienced this differently?
((and just as an add-on that I didn't really wanna include in my previous comment as this gets into my personal opinion about a certain S&B ship haha))
this kinda goes into another aspect of toxicity in the S&B series since many fans will end up completely believing Alina should've ended up with the Darkling even though he's an abuser. personally I just find this really strange when these people will completely disregard anything other people tell them about this very problematic ship and instead thoroughly believe the Darkling was Alina's best choice. I can understand people who know and understand that this ship is very toxic but simply find it interesting, however, I've seen too many people who truly don't seem to comprehend the Darkling's abusive nature and will argue with others about it (which is a little alarming to say the least)
but yeah idk, that's just my observation haha
I’ve seen similar things-almost to a t! So you’re definitely not alone :) I wonder if part of it comes down to SoC having multiple perspectives, and those perspective each representing different viewpoints well, and thus the fandom is more empathetic/varied? Idk!
Idk, while it's true that there is drama with the S&B ships (or mostly that there is a rift bw people who like Darkling/Alina and those who don't), some people who prefer or only like SoC can act very superior about it. Like it's impossible for them to praise SoC without saying negative things about The Grisha Trilogy.
This got especially bad after season 2, when the writers talked about a possible SoC spinoff (next to a season 3 of S&B). The fandom is generally insecure about the future of the adaptation, so people feel it's unlikely for Netflix to greenlight both. So many SoC fans started to insist they should just cancel S&B "because nobody cares about those characters anyway" and "most people only watch for the Crows" Saying that a part of the fandom should be screwed over so you get what you want is just rude and the opposite of what a fandom community should be about.
As a big fan of VE Schwab, I have to agree lol there’s not really a sense of a “fandom” with her books but I will say, anytime I post about her books, I always have lovely conversations with others. And I think if there tends to be any kind of merchandise, it’s for shades of magic. I really don’t see much for her other books. Which is always so surprising!
I have met her twice and each time the fans I was surrounded with were so fun and awesome. 😊
I’m more of a fan of certain books of hers rather than a fan in general. I loved Vicious but my perception of it as a stand-alone has prevented me from trying Vengeful and I did not care for ExtraOrdinary. Did not like Addie or Gallant and found Datker Shades somewhat lacking. Not read her other stuff.
Sad to see Malazan down there with the Witcher fandom! In my experience, at least on places like Reddit, Malazan has been one of the best and most engaging communities. Witcher, WOT and LoTR are a toxic dumpster fire right now due to everyone losing their minds over the terrible adaptations.
It's odd with the Wheel of Time. Before the show I thought the fandom was incredibly reasonable. Now there are 2 extremes. 1) The toxic always negative people who attack individuals relating to the show and everything is doom and gloom, and 2) The toxic show can do no wrong people, who mob attack anyone on social media who voice any criticisms of the show. (I've been called some pretty nasty things for the mildest of criticisms on plot)
I have to think both sides are a minority, but it stinks all the same and makes me hope for other stories I love to not get adapted.
34:20 long-ish rant ahead
I had the same experience with you with the Fanderson with regards to book titles. Basically, I wasn't aware that referring to the SPs in their titles were a faux pas and I mistakenly referred to Tress by its initials in a post which the admins of the group I am in deleted.
Take note: I used the abbreviations. Not the full title. So I made a new post airing my frustration and offering some sort of middle ground because I don't think saying TotES when you don't know what any of those letters mean would spoil anything and throughout the post, I have been called a gaslighter and an unempathic asshole, all while being gaslit and insulted in the threads. Then the admins went on to post passive aggressive posts about those who don't agree with their stance and then falsely accuse me as well and then ban me for 24 hours and close the comment section so I can't respond.
I had ANOTHER interaction with the same admin, this time about the swag because enough people voted to treat them as non-spoilers, and some people, including the mods are (for the lack of a better word) whining about it. Even the post announcing the decision was passive aggressive. This time, I confronted him about silencing me and came with receipts and he responded by starting a new thread, falsely accusing me some more, and then kicking me out of the group. I only knew about his new accussations because I checked in with a different account. LOL
I had a good time in the Wheel of Time fandom for a few months before I started really noticing all the sexism underlying so many readers’ opinions on the female characters. When Mat is careless or rude or immature, readers give him a pass every single time. When Elayne or Egwene or Nynaeve are careless or rude or immature, they are apparently the most annoying vile unforgiveable characters ever written. Every thought they have and every action they take is raked over the coals by readers while the boys’ are seen as empathetic and allowed to be flawed.
As a woman, it was absolutely unbearable to remain in the fandom. Especially because I LOVE Nynaeve and Elayne and I would waste so much energy trying to defend them to readers who insisted on seeing them in the worst light possible.
If it helps, I found Mat very annoying 😂
@@ebnovels THANK YOU 🤣
I grew to like Nynaeve slowly over the course of the books to be one of my favourite characters. 💜Although Verin is my favourite and she isn't even a main character.
I feel like we just need to utter the term, ‘SuperWhoLock’ for a bunch of us to recoil at the memories of easily one of the most toxic fandoms to exist. Dark days hahaha
I credit my almost entirely positive experience with the Sanderson fandom to the moderators at the 17th shard. They are so on top of it, ensuring that people keep discussions respectful.
As a whole, I think the cosmere fans tends to "um, actually" each other a bit, but it really depends on your interests.
WoT on the other hand, I've just been bashed in the face with people being really awful ever since the TV started production. I don't even want to talk about WoT online, even though I enjoy those books quite a bit.
That’s too bad-I’m sorry the show has brought that out in the fandom. And that’s great about the moderators for the 17th shard! Haha, the “um, actually” point is very accurate
I had to leave Stormlight Archive circles cause 😳. I've read and enjoyed most of the Cosmere books but I have complaints and I think Brandon Sanderson is great but perhaps a little overhyped, and god forbid a Sanderson fan hears anyone say anything like that about their precious Sanderson lol
Great video, obv not going to have 1:1 experiences but i think this roughly lines up with how i feel (also the final fantasy mention was a nice surprise!)
a bit of a niche series, but one of the nicest fandoms I've encountered is the tarot sequence, everyone is so lovely and supportive, with a fandom and author thats super receptive to criticism, and one of the rare times i feel the found family vibes in the books are actually reflected in the fandom. it lowkey makes me emotional haha. also has a surprising amount of art/fics/etc. for a fandom so small!
one of the worst was easily Dresden Files sadly, i am sure there's lovely fans out there, but most of what I've experienced is dimissive and condescending to criticism, bashing on *other series* for daring to have similar elements (often without even reading them!), extremely rude to minority groups (and speaking as a dude, kind of misogynistic), and honestly I'm almost scared to write this in case they find me here, lol
My favorite series is The Locked Tomb series (gideon the ninth). I'm not super active in the fandom, but from what i've seen, it's a pretty cool fandom. The fanart and cosplay people have done are cool as hell. I actually have a fanart of one of my favorite characters as my lock screen on my phone bc I love it so much!
I’ve seen some of the fanart! I’m glad it’s such a cool and creative fandom :D
The Locked Tomb fandom is honestly one of the most fandoms I've ever been a part of. It's everyone being excited about puzzles and theories and sharing theories back and forth and making amazing art.
Also, one fandom you didn't add: Tolkien's. Say anything less than praising the trilogy as a godsend and they would descend on you with the fury of a thousand balrogs. Meanwhile, Silmarillion, which is Tolkien's ACTUAL passion project, is a divisive book for them.
I like your transparency. You are the first one who is talking about this. I practically agree with everything you said, especially about the Cosmere fandom. Even if it’s a little sad.
I’ve seen others discuss this before, but maybe I’m thinking more about my private conversations? 🤔 regardless, I wish collectively we could do a better job (and by we, I mean those of us who are a part of any kind of fandom) of being kind to one another
Hey, I'm sorry you've had that experience with the Malazan fandom. It's my all-time favorite series and I'm disappointed that the message of it hasn't been upheld across the board by its readers.
I feel for Robin Hobb that if someone has a critisism, us fans go like: "Yeah, that's fair. But that's why I like it, though"
Also, I need more FFX or FFVII inspired jewellery. T^T there really isn't enough fanart for this fandom.
I haven't been in any kind of fandom for years but wow your bookshelf is so pretty and shiny 😍
I really think you are really off on the Malazan fandom. A few vocal trolls does not a fandom make. Being also a huge Jordan/Sanderson fan, i find the Stormlight fandom far more toxic on a regular basis. Yeah, there is a very small vocal minority of Malazan trolls that hang out on r/books, but come by the Malazan subreddit, and you'll find it mostly chill and laid back. The trolls usually get downvoted to oblivion, and most of us get that not all books are for everyone and appreciate that someone at least gave it a go.
Conversely, I got absolutely torched on the stormlight subreddit when I said I found RoW boring because of the whole Die Hard with sad-boy John McClain plot line and only finished it for juicy Cosmere drops.
I LOVE the Witcher (all versions, played games then read books then watched show) and it’s one of the worst fandoms I’ve seen… and I’ve been in fandom spaces (and fandoms with multiple adaptations) a long time. I like the show for what it is but god forbid you say that anywhere or people will tell you you’re dumb because you like something they don’t? It’s bizarre.
Thanks for bringing awareness to the fact that some fandom spaces are pretty toxic. Also agree that the ACOTAR fandom seems pretty ok overall (I’ve only dipped my toe into that space).
It is really a terrible fandom, sadly. I get being really bummed about an adaptation not being what you hoped-that’s basically how I feel about the Netflix adaptation-but luckily we still have the games and the books. Being horribly cruel and insulting to anyone who likes the show is pointless. I’m sorry you’ve also had negative experiences!
@@ebnovels Thank you ❤️ Fingers crossed that one day we get a closer TV/movie adaptation!
Unfortunately these people don’t understand what the story really is about which baffles me. The books’ premise is to deal with issues of gender, race, inequality, xenophobia but all some people can see is the man with a sword 😅
Interesting topic!
I am a voracious reader that doesn't really take time with socializing, but I feel like a part of Vorkosigan's fandom (or, broader, most works of Bujold), and was a happy little Potterhead for nostalgic reasons before the whole thing started going downhill (HP and The Cursed Child marking the spot).
I kept putting off Malazan because of some stuff I've seen the fandom do, actually. I started it when a friend of mine encouraged me, and spoke critically about it. So, fandoms really do have an impact on readers behavior. Now, my experience with Malazan fandom is pretty nice, but I think it also has to do with moderators on r/Fantasy who quickly deal with the bad apples.
It's interesting to see the topic from your perspective, because you are literally putting yourself out there. I usually appreciate your measured tone (even if I think you could sometimes be more witty, like in your Fourth Wing video), but I've sometimes wondered if you had some bad experience that made you wary of being more direct.
Not the Song of Ice and Fire erasure 😭
I personally would have ranked Maas Fandom, because it's not just the ACoTaR it's all her books, way lower. I have the worst interactions with them. I'm all for people reading what you want, but her style of writing and the love interests leave a lot to be desired. But they can't accept that there are issues and put her on this untouchable pedestals. Which is why when you meet the rare reader who is like "Her stories are trash, but it's the kind of trash I love." I find it so funny. Like read what you want but realize there are issues and read it anyways.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I might add that I don’t think people HAVE to say they think the series has issues or that it’s bad, but I absolutely think people need to allow other people to have those opinions without being rude, condescending, or outright horrible to them
Very much this. I’m a Maas fan, but her books are full of issues (and legitimate representation issues). There is very little space to discuss these issues within the fandom
I’m exactly the kind of reader who loves trashy romance. I do see the problems but I don’t really care about that in these kind of stories, it’s more about enjoying the ride than some deep thoughts from the author. It’s not like I would want something like that in my real life. It’s basically like “movies for adults” but with tension, and you don’t really expect great stories from those. And part of the fun is watching rant videos after I read those books. But I have to say that some of the die hard fans can act like a bunch of babies - not Maas but similar kind of story is in the series From Blood and Ash from J.L. Armentrout. There is a certain scene in 4th book (that was foreshadowed intensely) where fans are divided, and they are giving it one star reviews because of it (and sometimes they changed it from 5 stars because they gave it ranking before it was released). Honestly, the way these fans (or ex fans at this point I guess) act is pure comedy to me.
@@Deni-mt9bj I love trashy romance too, but that enjoyment is reduced when there are harmful representations in the text. I’m also of the opinion that we should be critically engaging with all the media we consume.
I'm so glad I'm in my own little world then when it comes to The Witcher. I read the whole series because I wanted to see where the show and video game came from. Mind you I've only seen the first season of the show and clips of the games. But I was curious enough. Now it's one of my favorite series. And when someone doesn't like the show, or books, or whatever I'm cool with it. I know and understand everyone has their own taste. Does this mean I'm likely in the minority of this fandom? Yeah probably.
I wish everyone in the fandom reacted in a similar fashion as you 😂
Wouldn't that be nice! 😅 I'm the same way with SJM. I'm in the minority there also cuz I can see where criticisms are, know it's not for everyone, etc. And I enjoy them
You're not the only one. I totally understand the take on fandom. I love the books and games, what they writers did with characters in S2 pretty much killed any interest in the show. But I have loads of friends who like it and that's absolutely fine.
Did you look at age of those that are prominent in the fandom? The middle and lower ranks seem to be a bit of an older/experienced reading group than the overall of the other groups. Also, the experience of the fantasy reader plays a part (ie someone who has been in the genre for a long time). More starter places for Fantasy tend to appeal to people that are going to passionate about their “first” or early experience that made them fall in love with the genre. They want everyone to fall in love with their series too.
I think it depends on individuals.
There are teenagers who sound mature and make you think you are debating with an adult, which is fine, but some can be just as mean as the adults.
And some adults act like they are children.
So do agree that each fandom has a different age range, but feel like it is a case by case basis.
Perhaps, but I'd argue that ACOTAR/SJM would fall in a similar category as those higher tier fandoms in that regard--a springboard fantasy romance for younger or more casual readers, and appeals to a wide audience--and parts of that fandom are toxic af.
I think it’s possible age could play a role! From my personal experiences-which are obviously not going to be shared by everyone-I’ve seen more negativity from adults. I wonder if that’s drastically different for people who use TikTok more, though 🤔
I'm sorry you feel that about the Malazan community. I've only seen the opposite. There are some bad apples, but there are in every community. Any comment of the complexity or focus needed always seemed helpful to me, so potential new readers would know what they're getting into, rather than insulting...
Neat video. I don't think I've seen this done before, and I appreciated the presentation.
I now avoid fandom spaces for pretty much everything I read. I've run into way too many toxic people for way too many authors/series/genres to continue investing time trying to engage with them. Poor fandom behavior so obnoxious that I still end up seeing it definitely prejudices me against picking up a book, as does over-zealous proselytizing. I've never read something because someone told me not liking it made me unintelligent/bigoted/generally a bad person, or because someone gushed at me for half an hour that it was a work of genius with such rich themes and deep characters.
I think a lot of enthusiastic fans need to work on their elevator pitches. Every recommendation that's gotten me to immediately pick up a book has been a brief, concrete description that offers a hook.
I am certainly guilty of gushing when I love something 😆 I completely understand why you’d want to avoid fandom culture; the pros and the cons can lead to certain levels of fanaticism that are uncomfortable, especially when you don’t match the level of enthusiasm
I know this is more of a book tier but since you added Final Fantasy fandom i just want to give a shoutout to the Neverwinter Nights 1 fandom communities. 💞 I've mainly only had positive and lovely interactions with people from it over the years. (specifically the multiplayer roleplaying communities for different servers) and made a lot of friends since i first started playing the game twenty years ago. A few communities still exists from those days even! And been engaging and helpful to new players.
This is great, I don't get too involved in fandoms, I can barely keep up with everything 😅 but this is a great video
I really hope fourth wing stays a fun welcoming community I loved the video you made about fourth wing and im glad that the community reacted positively your video
I’m pretty scared that FW will become like the ACOTAR fandom since the story and fans are of a very similar profile
@@sophiel.7930why does that scare you? Just curious
@@athiyamia7579 Scared on the toxic aspects, not of the good 😊
I hope they stay that way as well!
I can’t help but notice that the lower tier is fandoms featuring male Uber powerful main characters and the upper mostly female or not classically strong males. I also wonder if the gender of the authors might attracts or deter the most toxic profiles of fans…
i really want the follow-up video!! this was so fun to watch :)
This video reminded me of the time when I was posting my top ten books of the year and I put Red Rising in this list but then mentioned how I thought Darrow, because he's a teenager and doesn't know much about the outside world, was really annoying in his attitude sometimes. Someone wrote an entire dissertation in my Instagram comments about how Darrow was supposed to be written that way and how dare I criticize Pierce Brown. I was baffled that I was praising a book and said one tiny negative thing and got absolutely annihilated for it. I agreed with everything they wrote in the comment but they were so absolutely rude about it and I am still salty today.
Realm of the Elderlings wasn’t really for me, but that fandom will always be my favorite
Same! I think it’s one of the kindest I’ve interacted with :)
I love The Witcher ever since I first read it almost 20 years ago. I fell in love but I feel so alone in it, I feel like all those horrible people in the fandom didn’t understand what they actually read. This book series has some of the strongest, most powerful messages, about feminism under patriarchy, racism, parenthood, sexuality, sa, love, toxicity, coming of age struggles. I don’t understand where the hatred is coming from - did we read the same books?
I’m sorry for what you and any other person experienced with this fandom, not because I feel somehow responsible, but because no one should experience something like that. I just feel sad about it. I’m lucky because I’m in my own bubble with nice people, but I don’t discuss the series (or a tv show) on the internet.
Spot on.
So true 😢
Interesting choices of fandoms! Its cool to see what other fandoms are out there. Im part of the harry potter fandom and phantom of the opera fandom and starting to get into Howls moving Castle but i stay away from the negativity but the HP fandom is both ways either extremely toxic but most people i talk to are totally accepting and have a really fun time.
Also a lot of the fandom actually think fanfiction is more cannon that the OG story which is pretty awesome in my opinion lol
My experience with Final Fantasy fandom has been super varied because there tend to be sub-fandoms for each game as well as the broader fandom of the whole series. FF7 especially is practically a franchise of its own with a huge fanbase, and I've had a pretty mixed experience with it. Some people are super great and super excited about the remake (or respectful about it if they don't like it), and there's some amazing fanart and fanfiction. On the other hand, some people can be quite elitist about disliking the remake and the direction its taken with the story. There's also been some pretty bad misogyny such as fans being genuinely outraged that they didn't think Tifa's boobs were 'big enough' in the remake, which I hate as a female fan. The shipping culture with people arguing about the Cloud/Tifa/Aerith love triangle can be pretty terrible and misogynistic as well.
As a very passionate stormlight fan, i get it.. .
I find that the worst fandoms I have interacted with are LOTR and ASOIAF - they both get really mad if you misremember some minor character that was mentioned literally once. Or, in the case of ASOIAF, have a theory that slightly differentiates from their usual ones. I'm also slightly terrified of Cassandra Clare's fans, because they do NOT take criticism of those books well.
On the flip side, the best fandom in my opinion is Discworld. It's just good vibes all around.
People commenting on the wheel of time tv series was right though. The people working on it actively tried to ruin and destroy the books legacy. They even said that they disliked the source material similar to netflix witcher.
And tbh the witcher tv makers except for Cavill hated the fans from the start and did not want the book readers to watch the show.
@@viktorr7115 why logically, would any producers not want the readers to watch it seeing as they’re the main target viewership? I think they just didn’t care enough to make it properly but they’re too money hungry to not want their main viewership to watch out of spitefulness
@@t0ebeans True it does not make sense but here we are. Showrunners and writes for the witcher hated the books and though they were better than them and the people that like them. Thats how the show became all about Ciri and Yennifer. Less about Geralt for every episode and in the end Cavill had enough.
I think you can be critical of the shows-I definitely am-without saying the writers should “burn in hell” which is among the more mild things I’ve seen
As a wheel of time fan, I knew it was gonna be low. I once made a post in the subreddit about how I didn’t like mat and people literally commented spoilers because mat is one of the most liked characters.
this is such a refreshing video, thank you :) I find this topic very interesting and there are more fantasy book fandoms I would love to see tiered as well. I find it also very interesting to see how the fantasy community responds to problematic writers, such as David Edding (child abuse), Marion Zimmer Bradley (children sexual abuse) and J.K. Rowling (working against trans rights). Some readers have no problem separate the writer from their work while other would never buy or read their books. And both parties often have problems with the others opinions
While I don't know anything about David Edding, I'd ask you to consider the gravity of how this paragraph is written. MZB was accused of HEINOUS crimes - felony offenses (and I believe her accuser). J.K Rowling has opinions which are unpopular (in some circles). These things are WORLDS APART - but the way you've constructed this paragraph, they are lumped together as if they are all similar cases. This is the problem with lumping everyone in a "problematic" category" - people that don't know much about each case will see them "problematized" and judge them without looking into each case separately.
words wielded as a weapon can be extremely dangerous, especially if the speaker has enormous audience and uses many occasions to belittle a certain minority. From my standpoint that is problematic, you don't have to agree with me. I'm not sure if you are mean that I "don't know much" about this, but as a parent of a trans child I know enough. There is a reason why most BookTubers never mention her books anymore
Idk if your child themselves is a book fan, but if it means anything at all-even though I’m just some random derpy girl who makes goofy book videos-they are welcome here! 💗
I agree with all of these. Especially Meyer. That and the Dragon Age game fandom are my two favorites I'm part of.
I definitely agree with all your tier rankings, that's where I would have put them as well.
The amount of Dalinar apologia and open hostility towards Moash and anyone who shows even a single ounce of empathy towards his situation in the Fanderson is ASTOUNDING. Especially the cognitive dissonance. They can excuse a war criminal's war crimes but are ready to go up in arms against a brainwashed assassin doing brainwashed assassin things. It always amazes me.
This was fun!!
Man. I belong to some garbage fandoms XD Totally agree though. Love me some Lightbringer, WoT, and Stormlight lol. I haven’t interacted with a lot of other fans though… But always down to talk about them :)
Couldn’t agree more with this list. I’m a huge WoT fan and have seen quite a few not so nice. I always go with “not everything clicks for everyone and that’s ok that the whole fun of reading as long as you’re having fun!” I remember getting bashed for criticism of sandersons work and I’m a big fan of his too. So odd to me to be nasty to people.
Ah, I’m sorry you’ve also seen/had negative interactions in some of these fandoms. I too find it odd when people choose to be hateful or unkind to such extreme degrees
When in comes to movie/tv adaptations, book fandoms are the worst usually, the amount of nit picky details they get mad about is laughable (eye color, actors's height...). I get that books have special place in someone's heart and nothing can do it justice blah blah blah but then just choose not to watch it and move on with your life!
My guess is Fourth Wing’s fandom has potential to, unfortunately, be similar to SJM’s. Sigh 😔…I hope not
Yeah, I’m worried about that. Hopefully it won’t 😅
Same.
Same. Love the book, but I'm scared lolol
I'm really glad to see someone acknowledge how toxic some of the SA Fandom is, but im SHOCKED you put Cosmere so high. Cosmere fans are some of the meanest people I've ever met online. On the other hand I'm also shocked to see WoT so low. I've never met a Fandom more welcoming than this one. Also kinda surprised to not see LotR mentioned.
Obviously everyone has a different experiences and I appreciate the video
The Final Fantasy fandom is pretty bad and circlejerky lol. And Arcane fans can't take critisism at all.
In my experience any fandom that's large and draws a passionate fanbase will inevitably have great and terrible parts. I'm willing to bet when First Law gets an adapation, it will become just as bad any other.
Yes, especially if the First law adaptation will be as bad as the Wheel of time adaptation. I'd like to see all this positive fandoms facing a really bad adaptation
First off Nice editing❤❤❤❤
Great video El! You’re unfortunately correct about Malazan. It does attract a fandom that has a superiority complex. Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe attracts a similar crowd. I’ve had mostly negative responses to my DNF of that series, with the exception of a few friends who are really nice about it.
It's funny that the Brent Weeks fandom can not handle criticism, the last book is basically a perfect example for how to not end a series. It's crazy how much you can pick it apart.
Yeah, for a series which main strength was plot twists, that was underwhelming to say the least.
Funnily enough I just got a notification of getting a reply on a three(!) year old comment about The Witcher books lol :D It began with "some people see sexism everywhere because universities indoctinate them to do so" I didn't read further, there's just no point in debating people like this. (The comment was about how I think the author criticises sexism in the books but he also falls into the trap himself, particularly with the objectiying descriptions of female characters).
I even quit all Witcher subreddits it was so toxic there. Also a huge part of the fandom is absolutely horrible towards the showrunner and the actress who plays Yennefer, and none of is constructive criticism, a lot of it is plain sexist (and sometimes racist) comments. Yet many of them lose it when someone criticises the depiction of women in the series or dares to say there are sexist elements. People in glass houses...
I thought this video was so interesting. I don't really interact with fandoms much myself, I just read books, like the stuff I like and don't worry too much about it. The only additionial content I consume is booktube (for book discussions and recs). So I'm completely baffled by the concept of insulting people just because they don't agree with my taste.
What I'm wondering though is how involved some of these authors are in their fandoms and how much influence they might have of the direction their fandoms take. The only one I really know of from your list is Sanderson, who is really involved and active, but as far as I have seen always polite and respectful. But apparently he still doesn't have the nicest of fandoms (at least for Stormlight).
I know SE is pretty involved with the Malazan fandom, though I wouldn’t say it’s quite as much as Sanderson. It would be interesting to see how the interactions themselves set a precedent in general, though
Great Video!
Is there a relationship between fandom ranking and fandom size or age?
fandom size for sure. Negative voices tend to be the loudest, sadly. So I imagine with more people there will always be more drama and a lot more know-it-alls 🫣😅
not sure about age though 🤔 I've seen some savage petty people on both sides 😔 i do think older people tend to get meaner? probably because of nostalgia too, but that's no excuses for treating other fans poorly. I'm thinking lotr and wot fandoms when the tv shows dropped 😂 tho both shows were pretty bad...
There could be a correlation. As the other commenters mentioned, and I think I said something similar in the video, the bigger the fandom, the louder the negativity becomes. Age is harder to pin down, as I’ve seen young, middle-aged, and older individuals behave poorly-obviously I’ve seen kindness as well! It just seems more varied
Loved this! If you do a part 2.... please look into the fandoms of: Supernatural (such a fun and awesome fandom), Game of Thrones, HP, Shadowhunters, Star Wars, Pokemon, LOTR.... that should get ya started lol :)
Oh gosh! I've seen long reviews on books on Amazon that's like "are you trying to rewrite the book in your own words?" I always skip those.
I love Marissa Meyer fans. I didnt like one of her series, the Renegades, but everyone was still so welcoming. They're all so eccited and happy!! Just as fun as the books :)
SO EXCITED!!!🌺💕🪻💘🪷🪷🤎🖤📙📚📖❤️🔥🌺💘💘🪷🌹❣️💜🪷🌹🧡🧡🩵🩵💜🩷🌷💙🌻🌻💙🩷🌷🌻💙❣️💜💜🧡🧡🧡🤎🤎💓🌺💖💚🪷❣️❣️🧡🧡📖📖📚📙🖤🖤🤎🤎💛💜❣️🧡🧡🌻💙💛💛🧡
I have not read from all of those you mentioned, so I could be off on this. However, it appears that the more fantasy or deeper, more adult the series is , the more likely you will get those people who, shall I say, "go all in"? Meaning, they are the ones who likely resemble how the Star Wars fans are? And I would assume that the more you submerge your life in a fandom, the more you are willing to, for lack of words, defend it? Which is why I think you might get people who would be more nasty because you're not just criticizing the work of the series but in part, them.
I think there’s certainly something to how personally people can take criticisms of their favorite things. Art can have a profound impact on our lives, so in a way I can see why someone would hold it so dearly. I think the problems arise when people don’t reflect on the sensitivity they have toward any bit of criticism someone else might have toward the thing they like 😅
Ive only had good experiences with the malazan fandom, but im sorry you haven't. This probably depends on which corner of the internet we went to. I can totally understand how if you were struggling with the first book, which is very common, and went looking for encouragement or a little help you might not find, which can be frustrating. I have also noticed the compassion theme you mentioned, hopefully those readers can integrate those lessons better on their next reread 😉
You did this with such grace, Elle. Thank you!!
Well.. I guess im just not that extroverted online... Ive just not had any particularly negative experience in any of these fandoms... Like, when if ever, i go into the reddits and stuff its mostly just to find clarification on a certain plot point or character background or something like that... So idk maybe that particular aspect of fandoms isnt that toxic? I guess i should just feel lucky ive not had many, if any sour experiences. :) but your vid was definitely interesting!
The Farseer Trilogy might even have three different illustrated editions, one from Folio Society, one from Del Ray, and one (I think is illustrated) by Subterranean Press.
Fun video, thanks
Haha, you’re welcome 😄
THE LONG-WINDED COMMENT KILLED ME HAHAHA
RotE has amazing fans, I do feel like everyone who loves the books (like I do) totally respects that they might not work for everyone, but when they work they REALLY WORK :D
The two absolute worst fandoms are the Star Wars and the LotR fans. No one comes close to their level of awfulness, except maybe the Witcher fandom.
Honestly, in my experience, the LotR fandom has been the worst. I am not a fan of the LotR and when I mention that their fandom (online and irl) just calls me an idiot and my opinion bullsh*t.
I think the Cosmere fandom is great though!
Wow, your experience of the Sanderson fandom is very different from mine. I’d rank it at the bottom
You and I had vastly different experience with Malazan Fandom... Im really sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with them.
It took me a year to finished Malazan... through out the year malazan subreddit was my lifeline... they were some of the nicest and helpful people i have encounterd in fandoms..
You forgot the Animal Crossing fandom. It’s a really solid fandom who still watch gaming streams of it four years after the newest game. In my experience it’s a super positive and welcoming fandom.
I wasn't aware how intense the toxic elements of the Tolkien fandom (or Wheel of Time, Witcher) could be until the shows were announced. From announcement and persisting today, it has just been awful. It's nice to see other fandoms of literature that's adapted to TV remain somewhat positive (eg The Magicians, Shadow & Bone)
I had some serious rose tinted glasses on where the Tolkien fandom is concerned for most of my life because it was one of my first as a kid. But man did I get one rude ass wake up call! XD There was definitely a whole to criticize about the show but the frothing at the mouth vitriol that was mindlessly outpouring all over the place genuinely caught me so off guard.
I'm guessing the Abercrombie (and probably Schwabb) fans are looking at the books more like literature than pop culture. Like you don't really have a Salman Rushdie or Kazuo Ishiguro "fandom," though obviously both writers have fans.
That’s an interesting theory :)
I feel lucky so far that I have yet to interact with the negative side of any fandom, knock on wood! 🤣🤣
It makes me sad that you’ve had a bad experience with the WoT fandom. They are truly so excited and are welcoming hate the bad people ruined it with the show stuff.
The worst experience I’ve had was with Promise of Blood. I put up a video kinda ranting about the book and I had a three part comment from 1 guy basically telling me I was a dumb woman, in not so nice words. Lol 😂
I have been harassed online with messages calling me fat and asking how much I weigh, and calling me a fat feminist from Lotr fans after defending the diversity in Rings of Power. Granted these people were obviously racist and sexist and I judge them as individuals, but my goodness they made me never want to engage with the online Lotr fandom.
I am a big VE Schwab and RF Kuang fan. I think RF Kuang fans can be a bit harsh but a lot of her themes have to do with harmful ignorance, so I get it, and think they are more patient than most. I have never met or talked a VE Schwab fan that wasn’t kind.
I also love Stephanie Garber and Marissa Meyer’s works and have had no bad experiences with them. Marissa Meyer’s books are so sweet so how can you be an a-hole if you like her books? Even Renegades, which can be pretty dark at times, has an overall optimistic message. I saw Stephanie Garber at Yallwest last year and she was great.
Oh my gosh that's awful! I had generally positive experiences with the lotr fandom until Rings of Power was announced. That show seemed to bring out the worst side of the fandom. I also stopped engaging with the fandom at that time
I’m sorry you had to deal with that. I’ll never understand that level of unkindness. I’m glad some of the other fandoms have been much better for you though!
I was talking to my husband about the Arcane part of this video because he has been playing league since he was a kid, and he is now almost 30 😮😂 he said there is a big difference between the players that just play and the ones that really care about the lore and backstory. The ones that care about the lore are people who really loved that arcane reached so many people and they could all share in the excitement of it. They also tend to be the people who want to bring people over to the game and teach them. He notices that the people who dont care about the lore tend to be the ones who fill the game with negativity.
Also curious where you would place Red Rising. I think you kind of have to seek out Red Rising fandom but ive never been in such a chill and relaxed group of people who actually seem to like when people have different takes on things
Yeah, I wish you had included Jim Butcher fans because every single interaction I’ve had with them has been negative. Even just mentioning casually ‘well I’m not really that interested’ even before I’d read the series had people coming for my throat. And I read the first book afterward and then couldn’t read the second. Ofc they defend the sexism of Harry and this series and the author being really weird about women in his personal life 🥲
It’s always unfortunate when you don’t want to try a series and people get upset, then yo try it and don’t really like it…and people still get upset 😅
🤣 OK, but the second book is really bad and Dresden is sexist. I thought these things were generally agreed upon.
"People get weird about the ships." *HARD CUT* … very curious what you said/were about to say there, lol.
Hahaha, it’s more that I just didn’t think more needed to be said 😂
The most wholesome (that sounds weird) fandom to date for me is the Hannibal (tv-series) fandom. Most of the things created by that fandom is utterly disturbing. Creative but so so dark...
Everything comes very much with a 'Dead Dove Do Not Eat' label. But they fully acknowledge that they create some dark things and are just so lovely to each other! I don't think I've ever saw a full on fight between creators, just spiritly discussions.
I will never ever forget to check the content tags though when it comes to Hannibal. Once was enough...
I don't get involved in any fandoms so this was a pretty interesting video. I personally would have thought Final Fantasy would have been much worse and Stormlight would be way better. And the Witcher... I've only read the books and played the games but I never would have expected it to have a negative fanbase.
Also, I would have thought Arcane would have a pretty bad fanbase because of League. I personally couldn't make it through the series because of one single thing that I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with.
While I agree about what you said about The Grishaverse/Leigh Bardugo fandom for the most part, there is some weird stuff though when you're really into the fandom (which I am).
(tw for abuse)
Not too long ago Leigh Bardugo opened up about being in an abusive relationship in the past and being in a bad place during the time she wrote Shadow and Bone (the first book). She doesn't outright say that the Darkling is based on this person or relationship, but a lot of the themes and subject matter in her works could be as authors are affected by their personal life and experiences. One would expect the fandom to be sympathetic, and most people were, some Darklinas (Darkling/Alina shippers) had unkind things to say about Leigh.
Already, many of them were upset at the King of Scars duology, which doesn't shy away from showing how much suffering the Darkling's deeds have caused. Many Darkling fans like to absolve him of guilt and act like he's not that bad. So obviously this did not go down well, and to this day I still see negative comments about Leigh and her "retconning The Darkling to be a villain" and "using her experience with abuse to justify turning The Darkling into the villain." Which is just horrible, but I'm not making this up sadly.
It seems to me that a huge part of Darklina fans are Darklina fans only and not Grishaverse fans. Which is fine in itself, but it can lead to charged interactions with fans who don't agree with them, really don't support their ship or dare to talk about The Darkling as a villain.
This is the crux of the issue, for years Darklina shippers sort of pretended that the Darkling is only Alina's love interest and not the villain of the entire series. So when further installments reinforce that he is indeed BAD, many of them didn't cope with it well. And this can lead to a lot of disagreements and discourse. And no wonder, it's hard to find common ground with readers who deliberately misinterpret huge chunks of the books to stan their fave, and get mad at the author when she doesn't validate their headcanon. And Leigh Bardugo has definitely gotten more vocal about Darklina not being a healthy and aspirational ship in interviews and such (aside from alrady writing it in the books).
Im shocked you didnt place acotar in the last tier. I think they are the worst because they not only fight with other people but they fight with each other and people that should be ""on their side" like i feel really sorry for anyone that will be a part of the show if it actually happens and ive seen them treating artist like shit for drawing something inoffensive about the series that they didnt like countless of times. and the subfandoms are always fighting each other and each of them think they are better than the others but they are all the same. Just a bunch of awfull people, honestly. The only nice people i know that are part of the fandon they are not really active on it. But im glad that you had an better experience with them lol (even tho it was not that great either)
I’ve seen some of what you’ve mentioned regarding artists, and it’s very disheartening. I hope what you described with the show doesn’t happen, but idk, that’s probably asking too much 😕
The ones I put on the bottom also have what you mentioned with the infighting. With Malazan in particular, I know people that are in the fandom, but won’t even mention certain criticisms publicly because of how the fandom treats them
@@ebnovels ahh i understand! i guess i just haven't seen much of those other fanbases. im just shocked to think of the existence of one worse than acotar's
As a wheel of time fan I get the ranking of the fandom. I love the books, I love the characters, but there’s always been this element in community that has always been a bit toxic, though tbh I’ve never considered myself part of the fandom. I just quietly enjoy it and talk with friends in it.
And I think that’s kind of it. On individual basis every person I’ve known in person who’s read them are great, kind, and like you said love to discuss stuff. Then you move broader and it’s a mess, and the books are this messy thing, from moral ambiguity to certain stances on gender/sex. Most of that is intentional and meant to be “look what ruins these people” and I think the fandom sort of misses that point and instead embraces the problematic. At least the vocal ones. And are prone to just defending everything because they like one bit of it.
I’m just quietly here to discuss everything from magic systems, character arcs, plot direction, impactful moments, etc. And just do not look anywhere online at broader community.
I read Fourth Wing and liked it but didn't love it but I'm having so much fun seeing those who loved it hype it up! I have been starting to see more and more artwork. Great fandom so far. Hope it stays that way but I think it will!
I hope it does!
I was kind of surprised to not see LOTR or ASOIAF on here, seeing as those are maybe the two biggest.
I was trying to focus on ones I’ve had more experience with, but they are indeed some of the biggest
@Elliot Brooks That totally makes sense. I thought all your takes were pretty spot on with what I've experienced personally. It's interesting, I've always been a big fantasy fan but I've never really been a part of a Fandom or community of any of the series I love.