@@MichaelStephenson51 totally, I often don't feel like he adds much, but that he's necessarily bad, just not as good as everyone else lol but this one was gold
@@MichaelStephenson51 I would have to disagree. I think he's just as competent as Matt. Your opinion probably comes from the fact that he's a jokester.
There are mysteries at the heart of life. Always have been and always will be. They are the reason for religion. And if you are going to give me the "god of the gaps" BS reply ... then be sure to prove to me that there will come a day when there is nothing in this world that we do not understand. Until you prove that the world is either without mystery or will perhaps some day be without mystery ... then mystery remains. There is no need to invent it. (yes, science is advancing our knowledge every day.... duh).
Tracie is my favorite. She in unbelievable. I love watching her and Matt D. teamed up. Goddamn, they just kill it. He'll be knocking it out and EVERY time she contributes, it's just golden, and then she jumps in and NAILS it. The two of them are an unstoppable ignorance-smashing juggernaut. There's not a theist on the planet, there aren't 50 of them working together, who could touch them.
Anca AS I guess that if you were in the position that matt is in where even after being corrected the theist keeps pushing out points that have been refuted a thousand times.
@@ancaas7945 Have to agree with Oremo on this one. I've seen clips of Matt D. shooting the breeze before debates or whatever and I bet he'd be a really cool guy to hang out with. And as Oremo mentioned, it's got to get incredibly frustrating hearing theists making the same dishonest arguments over and over and over and over again. He just doesn't really have patience for their nonsense and doesn't suffer fools.
Expecting the other person won't believe you no matter what is a very comfortable thought, it takes all the anxiety out of it. Their reactions to anything you say, no matter what they are, can't affect you anymore because you already decided their reaction doesn't have a connection to YOUR ARGUMENT, therefore they can't judge you. Then you can just preach!
I've noticed that religious people have no respect or regard for non-human creatures. They want to feel superior to every other living thing so they dismiss animal feelings and empathy.
@@samanthajayewardene4523 For christian's their bible tells them that the world and everything on it is theirs' to do as they want to it . It's the perfect excuse to abuse the planet and all life on it and be justified in the eye's of their so called god . Religion is the most insidious thing mankind has ever invented . It gets everything wrong .
My mother is big into suffering. She doesn’t follow her doctor’s recommendations because her pain and suffering brings glory to god and helps the poor souls in purgatory. It’s disgusting.
Greater love than throwing yourself on a hand grenade? Easy. Dedicate your life to helping someone else. A split second decision vs a decision to spend decades helping another person.
I have a great personal example of that. My 2nd wife left, and her 4 eldest children followed. Our daughter stayed with me. After a few months, her new situation fell apart, to the point where she and her 4 were going to be homeless. I took them all back in (even her disabled new fella) to prevent further trauma to the kids. Now I'm.helping to raise the oldest child's (now age 34) 2 boys, who have no real father figure. I'm now retired and disabled, still raising kids. My daughter doesn't have her own yet (and may not), so I'm readily doing what many males would call me a sucker for.doing.
@@MCodger I don't know all the details of your situation but I don't think helping others could ever be considered something a "sucker" would do. It sounds to me like more people should be like you and show compassion and love for others... even if you have to sacrifice.
@@MCodger. I’m years late to the convo, but cheers to you for understanding & doing the right thing for the children, whether they are yours. Thank you for being decent.
The soul is a concept that people made up because they didn’t understand what gave us consciousness and had a hard time accepting that we have no consciousness forever after we’ve died.
The thing that finally cause me to admit I was an atheist is that there is NOTHING that my sons could do , or anyone for that matter , that I would want to torture them day and night for eternity yet God would and he is suppose to be Love Incarnate .
No you do not understand. God does not torture anyone. They go there because of their own beliefs. Eternal separation is a result of bad choices not Gods wishes. He has given every human born the chance of redemption from the punishment we all deserve because of our sin. Jesus is the bridge back to God. The first sin we committed automatically separated us from an all perfect creator. You need to understand this and then you will see God.
@@JCisSAVIOR I have found it and it is based on facts and truths, with all their imperfections and warts, but the truth, and it makes sense, no mental gymnastics required, side effects...peace of mind, loss of irrational fear.
@@JCisSAVIOR You're an all-powerful kennel owner, you train dogs to be good guard animals, but not all dogs make the grade, for those that fail what would you do? Find them homes, set them free, destroy them or torture them forever?? You know what your 'God' would do.
@@vashnanerada8757 stuff the Bible. You'd be better off reading a book on English language, so you you can learn the difference between questions and assertions.
@@petermirtitsch1235 can't do that unfortunately. Because iv had a head injury.. That effect my spelling. BUT WHAT A LOVELY TRATE YOU HAVE POINTING THIS OUT. . YOUR PARENTS MUST BE SO PROUD OF YOU POINTING THIS TYPE OF STUFF OUT INSTEAD OF ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS that you obviously understood. So take a step back sit back down and have a shave. Bye.
Don is probably used to Matt keeping the topic focused and to the point. I like Tracie, but both her and the caller were making the "greater love" argument convoluted and longer than it needed to be.
Not interested? Maybe so, but he may possibly be ill-equipped to ask pointed questions or explain his position. Frustration should not guide responses or compel you to move on and dismiss the caller.
This is sometimes hard to watch with the supposed not connected interplay with Tracie & Don. But Tracie is THEE master at having someone admit their position and have them backed into a corner with pure logic that they stumble and stutter trying to back out from. Don't ever debate this woman. You'll be brain frozen.
I'm not a Theist, but the human ability to replicate fundamental scientific discoveries that is innate in all humans and our means of making discoveries of universal principles that allow us to change the universe to increase our power over the universe makes us radically different from animals. The Platonists understood this.
@ady nails That is the opinion of the ancient ruling oligarchies that depend on indoctrinating hapless people like you in that type of thinking which ignores those relative handful of brilliant genius' that look beyond their senses and have uplifted mankind as a result. You can recreate great discoveries yourself just as long as you reject the culture that promotes stupidity as freedom.
@ady nails Oh, I understand what you mean. You're repeating something that you dont know to be true but you saw it repeated on TV a bunch and by your peers and by college professors, etc. and if enough people repeat it, then it must be true, right?
@ady nails Just go through any major scientific discovery such as Eratosthenes' measurement of the circumference of the earth, Keplers investigation into planetary orbits, Madame Curie's work on Plutonium, Gauss's investigation into electro magnetism, etc. to dispense with the lazy reasoning of repeating someone like Sir David Attenboroughs OM CH CVOCBE FRS FLS FZS FSA FRSGS and similar Malthusian crackpots ranting about reducing the human population because we're breeding like rats.
@ady nails Why? Leibniz was a real person and you can work through his discovery of calculus, something no animal can. Ideas make us separate from animals despite how much Hollywood spends on brainwashing you into believing that we're just animals.
Why am I more loving than this God? I wouldn't allow anyone to be tortured forever. Yet God requires this for people being ignorant as well as people who don't believe.
No, Robbie, he meant more. Don't be stupid. The whole "tortured forever" concept, and I can't believe christians miss this, fails when you read words attributed to Jesus: "fear not he who can harm the body, rather fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell.". The hell concept, mistakenly taken from revelation's lake of fire, is not eternal torture (mainly because it isn't real. But I'm being devil's advocate here). The lake of fire is reserved for Satan and the fallen angels, only added for those who take the mark of the beast in revelation. They can't even decipher their own text.
I love his response that a soul is that thing that leaves his body in a NDE. A NDE is your brain hallucinating. So to him a soul is something your brain invents...
19:08 - the moment dude realizes he just got owned. Go back a minute or so and play that back to get the whole exchange in a nutshell. Tracie was brilliant; he was caught completely off guard.
I love the way Tracie handles these discussions. I feel like whenever she gets down to something meaningful (like pinning Joe down to define a "soul," for example), Don kind of throws the conversation off course.
@@chuckm1961 No. For your bitchy little comment is completely untrue, and seems to come from a place of real vicious projection from your own ignorant malicious mind. Fuck off.
@@chuckm1961 What does that have to do with anything? It just shows that he isnt perfect…there are many Christians that treat atheist like pieces of sht as well…use your brain a little bit, moron
@@chuckm1961 well, yea that's why i stopped watching this show at times. I like when Matt calls out illogic but not when he is a jerk about. Ocassionly though some person deersves it
It's like the caller had written down a list of prepared scripts. As each got crushed he distracted onto the next - always avoiding reflection on the flaw in the previous one.
I miss all these hosts. This caller is mistaking the immediate response of taking drugs or being scared with loving someone, which develops over time as you become more fond of that person. It's not comparable.
Don unwittingly interrupts Tracie's carefully built logical scaffolding... Traci moves quickly to fasten a couple of braces and continue to her destination.
this conversation reminds me of the scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian.... crowd - "The Messiah"!!! Brian - "I am not the Messiah" crowd - "Only the true Messiah would deny his own divinity" Brian - "OK, then I am the Messiah"... crowd - "THE MESSIAH"!!!!!! Brian - "Oh fuck off".....
I am a 38-year Army veteran, and a combat veteran. I question your 'Army' service simply because you spoke of a grenade destroying a platoon. A grenade has a small killing zone and a lightly wider wounding zone. To kill an entire platoon (over 30 men in my Army) it would not be able to kill all of them, or even wound all of them unless they were all standing in a circle and hugging each other. I have had grenades explode within feet of me and was unscathed on each occasion so therefore you appear to not understand the killing power of a grenade (a slight hearing loss was the worst I received). I know of two soldiers who were hit by 40mm grenades, one exploded on a belt buckle and split the soldier abdominally up and down - I met again him a year later back home, walking around and showing off his scars. The other soldier received some shrapnel wounds of a minor nature. Grenades kill, for sure ... but unlike the movies they don't bring down buildings or emit clouds of fire. Personally, I think you sound like an educated person but you lack a certain level of cognitive and analytic skill.
I think your post was an attempt at bigging yourself up and talking about yourself. But who cares? Who cares what you’ve done? Sacrificing your own moral agency and critical thinking skills (or lack of) to perform violence on behalf of an entity as disgusting as the state, for little financial recompense, is vile quite frankly. But the point is, the grenade example was used because it represents a threat that can be contained. It was conducive to explain a point and make an argument. The specifics, like kill zone etc don’t matter. You’re either not intelligent to understand that, or, like I said, trying to big yourself up. No one cares.
Joe does realize he's defending an irrational and illogical position . But his unfounded religious belief's won't allow him to be mature enough to admit it . No matter how absurd his position and defense of it becomes he still can't admit it . Religion destroys peoples abilities to think rationally and logically .
It never ceases to surprise me how many people will call this show and expose themselves as shameless liars in public. This was over 30 minutes of Joe pretending not to hear what the hosts told him in order to make the same non-points. I hope Joe has taken this time to fix himself.
" Is there any greater love than sacrificing your own son, to show you love someone? There is so much wrong with that mindset, to such an extreme degree, I would've just give up right there.
"God is the Ultimate Source of Love in the World". I guess that may been before "he" allegedly flooded the world and had some five-hundred-year-old geezer build a boat.
the soldier falling on a hand grenade isnt a loving sacrifice, its part of the training the military imposes on recruits. the individual isnt as important as the unit and the mission
Joe "hooey hooey, personality hooey, spiritual and more hooey back to personality and more hooey." And poor Don can't get a word in edgewise. I felt sorry for him.
If such a guy even existed. It's entirely possible Jesus was based on one crazy person (or con artist) or a group of them combined, and the really clever con artist was Paul. He is really the slick engineer of what Christianity has become.
Agreed. India has several million 'holy men'. I guess it's a good way to fight off perceived gods. If they're ALL 'holy', then holiness can't be that rare or exceptional.
@Master Ikem I agree with you but dumb they're not. They choose to ignore true critical thinking and what can be proven over their want for the magic they believe to be true. Many have said that it doesn't matter what the facts are as long as they can believe in what they want. The problem with that train of thought is that it tends to infringe on the rights of many who don't believe as they do. Just look at what Christian politicians try to push in Texas.
I always prefer to think that it was Mary making it all up Mary: I am pregnant! Joseph: uhh we aren't married yet Mary:... Uh it was god Joseph: ok Mary: phew that was close Years later... Mary: now Jesus your the son of God right Jesus: yes of course and God loves me Mary: good just don't start any new world religions ok Jesus: of course not...
@@franktherealist481 I would argue that anyone who chooses to ignore true critical thinking IS dumb. If you have understood that there are tools that are the best chance you have of arriving at the truth but decide to ignore them and just believe whatever you want does that not suffice as one definition of dumb?
This guy had a script and he didn't want to get off it. And he was so determined not to get off of it that he deliberately misunderstood Tracy's example that disproved his garbage.
Ironically, this is how the New Testament god (Jesus + Christianity) was actually far more cruel than the old testament god (YHWH + Judaism). In Judaism there is no immortality to spend trapped in the eternal torture of hell - no eternal carrot and stick to manipulate you into blind submission.
I'm about 26 minutes in and the frustration is building up in Joe's voice as he doesn't get the responses he was hoping for to his half baked questions.
"You have to fast to know the value of a feast". I have never understood this as an answer to the problem of evil. I have never had to fast yet I enjoy every meal. Even if it is true, how fucked up is it that people have to suffer unimaginable pain for me to enjoy a sandwich. What kind of lunatic would set up a world like that? If that's true, is heaven impossible? There's not meant to be any suffering in heaven but you need suffering to have pleasure. If heaven is perfect without suffering and that isn't an issue, then this is obviously a lie
Giving up your life is pretty easy, it happens so quickly. Compare that to devoting an entire life of caring for others. One moment’s sacrifice is so much easier than giving of yourself day after day for an entire lifetime. Similarly, a day of torture is nothing compared to, say, CSA, or any other torture that lasts a lot longer than one weekend.
I'm sacrificing myself for the betterment of society to go to Hell because I don't follow an immoral God. Hell is eternal infinite torture. Therefore my sacrifice is far greater than Jesus's few hours of finite pain. My love for mankind is thus infinitely greater than God's.
Tracie has left the show. I’m going to miss her. She has a way that is uniquely Tracie that communicates why your theistic beliefs are irrational and more times than not you can hear the cracking of that shield of faith.
Don didn't help here, he kept de-railing Tracie's train of argument - but she carried the day anyway. I keep seeing an AXP host ask the caller a good question, then another host can't resist jumping in with an unrelated point, before the caller feels any pressure to answer.
It felt like the rat morality discussion gave away that the caller was trying to back into what a soul was to fit a narrative, vs really trying to determine what a soul is. “Only humans can have a soul so I need to define a soul so that only humans can have it.” The next question is why do you feel only a human can have a soul, and watch the circular argument or the reliance on the bible says so. Caller at that point was just scrambling to make stuff up.
This call makes me think of when I was a kid playing tag. And there was that one kid who when you caught them, they would shout "No you didn't!" and continue running around endlessly. This guy makes a claim, the hosts show it's incorrect or provide a better line of thought, and he tap dances away to some other line of thinking. Absolutely hilarious 🤣
I think that he doesn’t realize that these chemical reactions can work as fast as they do, so he assumes that he feels things before the reaction takes place. It’s just an argument from incredulity.
I died twice. My near death experience, nothing, nothing at all. No family and friends waiting, no floating above the room, no bright light. In fact had the Doctor not told me after the surgery that I had died, I would have never known.
No greater love than dying for a friend. Nope. Wouldn’t die for a friend. I’d die to save my children. And I don’t love my neighbors. I like them. It’s creepy to love people especially if they didn’t ask for it.
Many ways to sacrifice a son/ daughter without having to kill. My ex and I lost our son to drugs endig in schizophrenia because she chose to Bible-bang instead of being a mother for him.
Is the power to forgive outright without demanding blood sacrifice a power worth having?As a parent of (rather fine but not invariably perfect) children, I'd think this power indispensable to functioning well within a family, not to mention wider society. Seems rather odd to say that an all-powerful moral agent somehow lacks the power of bloodless forgiveness. Ah, well.
"You're inventing a mystery so that God can explain it." Perfect, Don
No offense to Don but normally he seems a little out of his depth on these shows. However, that quote was pretty brilliant.
@@MichaelStephenson51 totally, I often don't feel like he adds much, but that he's necessarily bad, just not as good as everyone else lol but this one was gold
@@MichaelStephenson51 I would have to disagree. I think he's just as competent as Matt. Your opinion probably comes from the fact that he's a jokester.
Killer!
There are mysteries at the heart of life. Always have been and always will be. They are the reason for religion. And if you are going to give me the "god of the gaps" BS reply ... then be sure to prove to me that there will come a day when there is nothing in this world that we do not understand. Until you prove that the world is either without mystery or will perhaps some day be without mystery ... then mystery remains. There is no need to invent it. (yes, science is advancing our knowledge every day.... duh).
I am always just in awe of Tracies brilliance and complete lack of arrogance within that brilliance.
Tracie is my favorite. She in unbelievable. I love watching her and Matt D. teamed up. Goddamn, they just kill it. He'll be knocking it out and EVERY time she contributes, it's just golden, and then she jumps in and NAILS it. The two of them are an unstoppable ignorance-smashing juggernaut. There's not a theist on the planet, there aren't 50 of them working together, who could touch them.
I love her. As for Matt, he is kinda narcissistic and I, as an atheist person, wouldn't like to have coffee with him. He's too full of himself.
Anca AS I guess that if you were in the position that matt is in where even after being corrected the theist keeps pushing out points that have been refuted a thousand times.
@@ancaas7945 Have to agree with Oremo on this one. I've seen clips of Matt D. shooting the breeze before debates or whatever and I bet he'd be a really cool guy to hang out with. And as Oremo mentioned, it's got to get incredibly frustrating hearing theists making the same dishonest arguments over and over and over and over again. He just doesn't really have patience for their nonsense and doesn't suffer fools.
@@venga3 Funny you do.
The irony of Joe first saying that he doesn’t actually believe the Bible, and then using the Bible to back up his point wasn’t lost on me.
"I know you won't believe this either, but....." - is one hell of an intro to a convincing argument.
Expecting the other person won't believe you no matter what is a very comfortable thought, it takes all the anxiety out of it. Their reactions to anything you say, no matter what they are, can't affect you anymore because you already decided their reaction doesn't have a connection to YOUR ARGUMENT, therefore they can't judge you. Then you can just preach!
I guess this guy never had a dog . Most dogs I know have great empathy and can give unconditional love .
I've noticed that religious people have no respect or regard for non-human creatures. They want to feel superior to every other living thing so they dismiss animal feelings and empathy.
@@samanthajayewardene4523 For christian's their bible tells them that the world and everything on it is theirs' to do as they want to it . It's the perfect excuse to abuse the planet and all life on it and be justified in the eye's of their so called god . Religion is the most insidious thing mankind has ever invented . It gets everything wrong .
Samantha Jayewardene
You are right and it’s absolutely DISGUSTING.
Rich Dandanell
My animals show me a far more beautiful love than any human ever has!!!!
And cats. They may not be as obvious about it as dogs, but you can see when a cat loves and trusts you.
My mother is big into suffering. She doesn’t follow her doctor’s recommendations because her pain and suffering brings glory to god and helps the poor souls in purgatory. It’s disgusting.
Mother Theresa syndrome
@@starlaminde8436 exactly. And she this mother Theresa was this perfect saint.
@@trishayamada807 actually she was an evil woman but I digress
Greater love than throwing yourself on a hand grenade? Easy. Dedicate your life to helping someone else. A split second decision vs a decision to spend decades helping another person.
Very damned true. Your answer is something only weathered people, instead of hotblooded and indoctrinated juveniles, would come up with.
I have a great personal example of that. My 2nd wife left, and her 4 eldest children followed. Our daughter stayed with me. After a few months, her new situation fell apart, to the point where she and her 4 were going to be homeless.
I took them all back in (even her disabled new fella) to prevent further trauma to the kids.
Now I'm.helping to raise the oldest child's (now age 34) 2 boys, who have no real father figure.
I'm now retired and disabled, still raising kids. My daughter doesn't have her own yet (and may not), so I'm readily doing what many males would call me a sucker for.doing.
@@MCodger I don't know all the details of your situation but I don't think helping others could ever be considered something a "sucker" would do. It sounds to me like more people should be like you and show compassion and love for others... even if you have to sacrifice.
@@MCodger. I’m years late to the convo, but cheers to you for understanding & doing the right thing for the children, whether they are yours. Thank you for being decent.
The soul is a concept that people made up because they didn’t understand what gave us consciousness and had a hard time accepting that we have no consciousness forever after we’ve died.
The thing that finally cause me to admit I was an atheist is that there is NOTHING that my sons could do , or anyone for that matter , that I would want to torture them day and night for eternity yet God would and he is suppose to be Love Incarnate .
No you do not understand. God does not torture anyone. They go there because of their own beliefs. Eternal separation is a result of bad choices not Gods wishes.
He has given every human born the chance of redemption from the punishment we all deserve because of our sin. Jesus is the bridge back to God. The first sin we committed automatically separated us from an all perfect creator.
You need to understand this and then you will see God.
@@JCisSAVIOR Pretty weak defense, read the Bible, your god killed millions, the Devil killed eight.
@@liberalinoklahoma1888
Keep searching and you will hopefully find the truth before it’s too late.
@@JCisSAVIOR I have found it and it is based on facts and truths, with all their imperfections and warts, but the truth, and it makes sense, no mental gymnastics required, side effects...peace of mind, loss of irrational fear.
@@JCisSAVIOR You're an all-powerful kennel owner, you train dogs to be good guard animals, but not all dogs make the grade, for those that fail what would you do?
Find them homes, set them free, destroy them or torture them forever??
You know what your 'God' would do.
The grenade analogy is one of the greatest arguments I've ever heard that highlights just how ridiculous the crucifixion story is.
People did use to get crucified.
@@vashnanerada8757 did they CHOOSE to be crucified?
@@petermirtitsch1235 oh did they. Can you show me the bible passage that says that or is it just you asserting
@@vashnanerada8757 stuff the Bible. You'd be better off reading a book on English language, so you you can learn the difference between questions and assertions.
@@petermirtitsch1235 can't do that unfortunately. Because iv had a head injury.. That effect my spelling. BUT WHAT A LOVELY TRATE YOU HAVE POINTING THIS OUT. . YOUR PARENTS MUST BE SO PROUD OF YOU POINTING THIS TYPE OF STUFF OUT INSTEAD OF ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS that you obviously understood.
So take a step back sit back down and have a shave. Bye.
Don is clearly not interested in listening to bullshit, I wonder if Tracie bought him a drink after making him sit through it? Kind of funny.
Don is probably used to Matt keeping the topic focused and to the point. I like Tracie, but both her and the caller were making the "greater love" argument convoluted and longer than it needed to be.
Not interested? Maybe so, but he may possibly be ill-equipped to ask pointed questions or explain his position. Frustration should not guide responses or compel you to move on and dismiss the caller.
@@dennismagee9486 I^m not sure about that, but I can see myself in Don, thinking more and yapping less .................
yeah defo Don is not his usual self in this call. he just isn't taking any shit lol
@@nickydaviesnsdpharms3084 I understand him so well ...............
This is sometimes hard to watch with the supposed not connected interplay with Tracie & Don. But Tracie is THEE master at having someone admit their position and have them backed into a corner with pure logic that they stumble and stutter trying to back out from. Don't ever debate this woman. You'll be brain frozen.
I'm at a point where if I hear her say something I don't agree with, I automatically assume I am wrong :P
Theists are desperate to draw a hard line between humans and other animals to say we are somehow separate and superior.
I'm not a Theist, but the human ability to replicate fundamental scientific discoveries that is innate in all humans and our means of making discoveries of universal principles that allow us to change the universe to increase our power over the universe makes us radically different from animals. The Platonists understood this.
@ady nails That is the opinion of the ancient ruling oligarchies that depend on indoctrinating hapless people like you in that type of thinking which ignores those relative handful of brilliant genius' that look beyond their senses and have uplifted mankind as a result. You can recreate great discoveries yourself just as long as you reject the culture that promotes stupidity as freedom.
@ady nails Oh, I understand what you mean. You're repeating something that you dont know to be true but you saw it repeated on TV a bunch and by your peers and by college professors, etc. and if enough people repeat it, then it must be true, right?
@ady nails Just go through any major scientific discovery such as Eratosthenes' measurement of the circumference of the earth, Keplers investigation into planetary orbits, Madame Curie's work on Plutonium, Gauss's investigation into electro magnetism, etc. to dispense with the lazy reasoning of repeating someone like Sir David Attenboroughs OM CH CVOCBE FRS FLS FZS FSA FRSGS and similar Malthusian crackpots ranting about reducing the human population because we're breeding like rats.
@ady nails Why? Leibniz was a real person and you can work through his discovery of calculus, something no animal can. Ideas make us separate from animals despite how much Hollywood spends on brainwashing you into believing that we're just animals.
Last time I checked, Yahweh approved of rape, genocide and slavery.
I hesitate to call that love.
What about if you love rape, genocide and slavery??😂
My chemical processes and emotional feedback say that I am falling for Tracie!!
Alek Panta Rei Enjoy the clips of her. She’s left the show and the ACA.
You're just in heat, that's all.
@@jerrylong6238 maybe Who knows
You won't be the first
"[The Jesus story] is like gory performance art."
This one made my day, thanks for that, Don!
I have an invisible, unknowable friend who wants to have a relationship.
Why am I more loving than this God? I wouldn't allow anyone to be tortured forever. Yet God requires this for people being ignorant as well as people who don't believe.
I think you mean 'less' loving.
No, Robbie, he meant more. Don't be stupid.
The whole "tortured forever" concept, and I can't believe christians miss this, fails when you read words attributed to Jesus: "fear not he who can harm the body, rather fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell.". The hell concept, mistakenly taken from revelation's lake of fire, is not eternal torture (mainly because it isn't real. But I'm being devil's advocate here). The lake of fire is reserved for Satan and the fallen angels, only added for those who take the mark of the beast in revelation.
They can't even decipher their own text.
@@Robbie32 If hell exist then God must be evil.
Typically people mean: soul/ spirit= frontal lobe + magic
I wouldn't even grant them a frontal lobe.
@@lyndonbauer1703 Maybe they need a frontal lube or a frontal lobotomy.
I love his response that a soul is that thing that leaves his body in a NDE. A NDE is your brain hallucinating. So to him a soul is something your brain invents...
A loving god who ceated a Hell to torture people for Eternity for not accepting "his" existance sounds like an entity best to avoid...
19:08 - the moment dude realizes he just got owned. Go back a minute or so and play that back to get the whole exchange in a nutshell. Tracie was brilliant; he was caught completely off guard.
Or more than that. The topic of "any greater love" started at 15:45.
I love the way Tracie handles these discussions. I feel like whenever she gets down to something meaningful (like pinning Joe down to define a "soul," for example), Don kind of throws the conversation off course.
Absolutely... his intervention loses the momentum.
Joe's "argument".... a constant stream of "but let's look at it THIS way" after being backed into a logical corner over and over again....
Amazing how quickly Joe went from starry "love" to vicious defensive aggression when his precious notions were deconstructed before his eyes.
You mean like how Matt talks about the morals he holds ... and then treats callers like pieces of shit?
@@chuckm1961 No. For your bitchy little comment is completely untrue, and seems to come from a place of real vicious projection from your own ignorant malicious mind. Fuck off.
@@chuckm1961 is it immoral now to call out a stupid arguement???
@@chuckm1961 What does that have to do with anything? It just shows that he isnt perfect…there are many Christians that treat atheist like pieces of sht as well…use your brain a little bit, moron
@@chuckm1961 well, yea that's why i stopped watching this show at times. I like when Matt calls out illogic but not when he is a jerk about. Ocassionly though some person deersves it
"Is there a greater love than X?" - "yeah, Y is a greater love" - "Well I'm only talking about X" WTF are you talking about? YOU ASKED.
Absolutely lost it when Don mutters "bullshit" at 23:43.... he looks so sick of it
"He could have said treat people well and I will judge you on that instead of people must die" - Tracie Harris
Tracie's mind is as sharp as a finely honed samurai sword.
You hear what he slipped in at the end there? "Hell is eternal suicide for hating love." Wow. That's so utterly depraved and pernicious.
It's like the caller had written down a list of prepared scripts. As each got crushed he distracted onto the next - always avoiding reflection on the flaw in the previous one.
The grenade analogy. A few additional details. He also invented the grenade, he's the one who declared war, and he's the general of both armies.
~ Two years later and still interesting to watch and hear Don and Tracie - many thanks!! Cheers, DAVEDJ ~
I miss all these hosts.
This caller is mistaking the immediate response of taking drugs or being scared with loving someone, which develops over time as you become more fond of that person. It's not comparable.
the grenade analogy is spot on and hilarious 😂
I love when Don gets feisty.
Don unwittingly interrupts Tracie's carefully built logical scaffolding... Traci moves quickly to fasten a couple of braces and continue to her destination.
I think serious Don is a lot better than the Don who giggles all the time trying to be funny
@@reasonablespeculation3893 Bro Ik this is an old comment but you just fuckin' gobble up thesaurus' like damn 🤣
this conversation reminds me of the scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian.... crowd - "The Messiah"!!! Brian - "I am not the Messiah" crowd - "Only the true Messiah would deny his own divinity" Brian - "OK, then I am the Messiah"... crowd - "THE MESSIAH"!!!!!! Brian - "Oh fuck off".....
I love this woman.
... please stop talking Don.
I can't believe they let this painful conversation go on for a half hour.
Surely you watched it?
And I quote Matt: "This guy is just pulling stuff out of his ass."
I am a 38-year Army veteran, and a combat veteran. I question your 'Army' service simply because you spoke of a grenade destroying a platoon. A grenade has a small killing zone and a lightly wider wounding zone. To kill an entire platoon (over 30 men in my Army) it would not be able to kill all of them, or even wound all of them unless they were all standing in a circle and hugging each other. I have had grenades explode within feet of me and was unscathed on each occasion so therefore you appear to not understand the killing power of a grenade (a slight hearing loss was the worst I received). I know of two soldiers who were hit by 40mm grenades, one exploded on a belt buckle and split the soldier abdominally up and down - I met again him a year later back home, walking around and showing off his scars. The other soldier received some shrapnel wounds of a minor nature. Grenades kill, for sure ... but unlike the movies they don't bring down buildings or emit clouds of fire. Personally, I think you sound like an educated person but you lack a certain level of cognitive and analytic skill.
I think your post was an attempt at bigging yourself up and talking about yourself. But who cares? Who cares what you’ve done? Sacrificing your own moral agency and critical thinking skills (or lack of) to perform violence on behalf of an entity as disgusting as the state, for little financial recompense, is vile quite frankly.
But the point is, the grenade example was used because it represents a threat that can be contained. It was conducive to explain a point and make an argument. The specifics, like kill zone etc don’t matter. You’re either not intelligent to understand that, or, like I said, trying to big yourself up. No one cares.
Joe does realize he's defending an irrational and illogical position . But his unfounded religious belief's won't allow him to be mature enough to admit it . No matter how absurd his position and defense of it becomes he still can't admit it . Religion destroys peoples abilities to think rationally and logically .
The best part of these interactions are the 4 to 5 second pauses when the caller realizes 'Oh, fuck, I have NO answer for that!'
32:32 "Hell is eternal suicide for hating love." Such a bizarre closing comment. What a warped, inhuman way to view humankind.
It never ceases to surprise me how many people will call this show and expose themselves as shameless liars in public. This was over 30 minutes of Joe pretending not to hear what the hosts told him in order to make the same non-points. I hope Joe has taken this time to fix himself.
" Is there any greater love than sacrificing your own son, to show you love someone?
There is so much wrong with that mindset, to such an extreme degree, I would've just give up right there.
The entity that drowns, burns, and kills children after hardening Pharos heart so Pharos couldn't do what God demands, is the source of love?
"God is the Ultimate Source of Love in the World". I guess that may been before "he" allegedly flooded the world and had some five-hundred-year-old geezer build a boat.
the soldier falling on a hand grenade isnt a loving sacrifice, its part of the training the military imposes on recruits. the individual isnt as important as the unit and the mission
Joe "hooey hooey, personality hooey, spiritual and more hooey back to personality and more hooey."
And poor Don can't get a word in edgewise. I felt sorry for him.
In my opinion Jesus was a damn good con man and his resurrection story is a great con.
If such a guy even existed. It's entirely possible Jesus was based on one crazy person (or con artist) or a group of them combined, and the really clever con artist was Paul. He is really the slick engineer of what Christianity has become.
Agreed. India has several million 'holy men'. I guess it's a good way to fight off perceived gods. If they're ALL 'holy', then holiness can't be that rare or exceptional.
@Master Ikem I agree with you but dumb they're not. They choose to ignore true critical thinking and what can be proven over their want for the magic they believe to be true. Many have said that it doesn't matter what the facts are as long as they can believe in what they want.
The problem with that train of thought is that it tends to infringe on the rights of many who don't believe as they do. Just look at what Christian politicians try to push in Texas.
I always prefer to think that it was Mary making it all up
Mary: I am pregnant!
Joseph: uhh we aren't married yet
Mary:... Uh it was god
Joseph: ok
Mary: phew that was close
Years later...
Mary: now Jesus your the son of God right
Jesus: yes of course and God loves me
Mary: good just don't start any new world religions ok
Jesus: of course not...
@@franktherealist481 I would argue that anyone who chooses to ignore true critical thinking IS dumb. If you have understood that there are tools that are the best chance you have of arriving at the truth but decide to ignore them and just believe whatever you want does that not suffice as one definition of dumb?
It's clear to see that Don is way too ruled by his emotions for these conversations.
Lol he asks a rhetorical question about the sappy “greatest love” and Tracie knocks it down in an instant. Lmao and dude just couldn’t take it
Beg to differ: "god" is the ultimate source of hate and depravity in the world.
I walk on my soul.
😂😂 you are more miraculous than Jesus then as you walked over nonexistent thing. Hail you. 😂😂
Believe me when I say, there are cats with higher cognitive functions than PLENTY of theists...
This guy had a script and he didn't want to get off it. And he was so determined not to get off of it that he deliberately misunderstood Tracy's example that disproved his garbage.
Seraphina Aizen ... yep.. she nailed him down, pun not intended... and he was just ssssssttttrrrruuugggllliiiinngg to stick to his nonsense...
The "fix" of theism is the promise of immortality. Take that away and the drug of theism will disappear.
Ironically, this is how the New Testament god (Jesus + Christianity) was actually far more cruel than the old testament god (YHWH + Judaism). In Judaism there is no immortality to spend trapped in the eternal torture of hell - no eternal carrot and stick to manipulate you into blind submission.
What an amazing tap dance in the last 10 minutes! Up to then, there was no mention of God and ultimate love at all.
ha ha ha for real ...
rather pointless
"If we just take the premise that..."
Translated: "If you just give me this point for free so I can win..."
"Self-righteous suicide" keeps ringing in my head from the song Chop Suey
Things go up. Things go down.
This proves that things move.
What makes them move ?
Beans.
John was always such a patient guy. Especially when the cohost is on a roll
I think you mean “Don”
it`s sweet to lay down your life for a country but sweeter yet is live for the country,jack!
Ephesians 1:11. "All things happen according to God's will and decision"
He made them do it
I'm about 26 minutes in and the frustration is building up in Joe's voice as he doesn't get the responses he was hoping for to his half baked questions.
The phrase " flogging a dead horse " springs to mind.
Magic beans.
Are there any giants and golden egg laying geese in that magic bean realm? LOL!
"You have to fast to know the value of a feast".
I have never understood this as an answer to the problem of evil. I have never had to fast yet I enjoy every meal. Even if it is true, how fucked up is it that people have to suffer unimaginable pain for me to enjoy a sandwich. What kind of lunatic would set up a world like that? If that's true, is heaven impossible? There's not meant to be any suffering in heaven but you need suffering to have pleasure. If heaven is perfect without suffering and that isn't an issue, then this is obviously a lie
Shut up Don. He kept derailing Tracie’s brilliance.
Literally, he was getting on my nerves
Thaaaank you
Giving up your life is pretty easy, it happens so quickly. Compare that to devoting an entire life of caring for others. One moment’s sacrifice is so much easier than giving of yourself day after day for an entire lifetime.
Similarly, a day of torture is nothing compared to, say, CSA, or any other torture that lasts a lot longer than one weekend.
John McCain spent 5.5 years of hell in a POW camp. Jesus had one bad weekend.
It was more like a few bad hours on a Friday afternoon...lol.
McCain was a treasonous cowardly scumbag who is rotting in a fictous hell, which in McCains case I would hope it was real.😅 19:13
This guy must be thick. Almost all their well reasoned logic about self-sacrifice went right over his head!
God's sacrifice was fake. Jesus got up again after a few days. Nothing was sacrificed.
I'm not impressed.
I agree 100%
I'm sacrificing myself for the betterment of society to go to Hell because I don't follow an immoral God.
Hell is eternal infinite torture.
Therefore my sacrifice is far greater than Jesus's few hours of finite pain.
My love for mankind is thus infinitely greater than God's.
Tracie has left the show. I’m going to miss her. She has a way that is uniquely Tracie that communicates why your theistic beliefs are irrational and more times than not you can hear the cracking of that shield of faith.
Scott Carter They will fill in but nobody will take her place.
@@paulmillbank3617 Agreed!!
Does she have her own channel or something? I want to hear her excellent arguments.
Don didn't help here, he kept de-railing Tracie's train of argument - but she carried the day anyway. I keep seeing an AXP host ask the caller a good question, then another host can't resist jumping in with an unrelated point, before the caller feels any pressure to answer.
Don’s a very lateral thinker, his remarks are always relevant just not necessarily linear.
I sometimes wonder if dons listening to the same conversation
"Let him finish..." and then she cuts off the caller to talk. 🤦🏽♂️🤣 Pretty annoying
It felt like the rat morality discussion gave away that the caller was trying to back into what a soul was to fit a narrative, vs really trying to determine what a soul is. “Only humans can have a soul so I need to define a soul so that only humans can have it.” The next question is why do you feel only a human can have a soul, and watch the circular argument or the reliance on the bible says so. Caller at that point was just scrambling to make stuff up.
You can have no greater love than your love of tomatoes.
I like cucumbers more.
Why are you bringing up cucumbers? I'm talking your love of tomatoes.
So God us Dr. Strange in Endgame trying to find the winning world?
Except he failed
Isaiah 45:7 says God created EVIL. How is a god that creates EVIL good?
This call makes me think of when I was a kid playing tag.
And there was that one kid who when you caught them, they would shout "No you didn't!" and continue running around endlessly.
This guy makes a claim, the hosts show it's incorrect or provide a better line of thought, and he tap dances away to some other line of thinking. Absolutely hilarious 🤣
I think that he doesn’t realize that these chemical reactions can work as fast as they do, so he assumes that he feels things before the reaction takes place. It’s just an argument from incredulity.
God is actually the ultimate source of hate in this world that caller has it backwards
*belief in god(s) is the ultimate source of hate in the world
Tracies analogies continually fly over this guys head
If this pretend god is the ultimate source of love, Its a complete failure at it.
The greatest love I can think of is letting someone go even when you desperately don't want to.
Joe....you have a very warped way of lookung at the world....
A good example of what religion can do to the mind.
I died twice. My near death experience, nothing, nothing at all. No family and friends waiting, no floating above the room, no bright light.
In fact had the Doctor not told me after the surgery that I had died, I would have never known.
No greater love than dying for a friend. Nope. Wouldn’t die for a friend. I’d die to save my children. And I don’t love my neighbors. I like them. It’s creepy to love people especially if they didn’t ask for it.
Don't forget Jesus loves you hahaha what a creep
Times have changed. These days someone as confused as Joe wouldn't get 10 minutes, let alone over 30 minutes.
Theres no hate like christian love
Joe: “We’re both just seeking the truth.”
Wrong, you believe you already found the truth.🙈
Many ways to sacrifice a son/ daughter without having to kill. My ex and I lost our son to drugs endig in schizophrenia because she chose to Bible-bang instead of being a mother for him.
“There’s a couple of corollaries which go along with that.”
Until you prove the claim, nothing goes along with it.😏
The soul is the memory of you by others after your dead and gone
I would think that the preist expected to go to heaven and "live" again.
Is the power to forgive outright without demanding blood sacrifice a power worth having?As a parent of (rather fine but not invariably perfect) children, I'd think this power indispensable to functioning well within a family, not to mention wider society. Seems rather odd to say that an all-powerful moral agent somehow lacks the power of bloodless forgiveness. Ah, well.
Well said and true.
Really, so when you love a spouse you tell them they must love you or you will punish them forever and ever. Fantastic love
Sacrifice is a great show of love...... dont mean you gotta die
How do you quantify what a “greater love” even is? How do you quantify love?
Don...I wish I lived close to Don. He is the best.