1. This is interesting in regards to what do they believe Shabbatai had become after he died? Did he come to the Besht as a dybbuk? And what would they think was he doing for the several decades prior to this encounter if he was a wandering dybbuk? Fascinating stuff. 2. Also of note, I have a book of legends about the Besht as well, and some of the things said about him are really exalted and imo only really should be applied to Christ. So in that the Besht is almost Messianically exalted, its interesting that they would recognize Yeshua or Shabbatai Tzvi a "spark of Messiah". If its talking about our Lord then it makes sense because In the Talmud Sanhedrin 43a when it says that "Yeshu" was hung on Passover Eve, it does make a short end note that He was different because He was close to the kingdom. (אלא שאני ישו דקרוב למלכות הוה) the Steinsalts interprets it as close to the government, but I think Qarov L'Malchut could be a recognition that He, from their perspective, actually could have been the Messiah. 3. I wonder if this story could have developed as an apologetic against criticism of Chassidic Judaism. Many people were still reeling from the Messianic failure of Shabbatai Tzvi and many places had only recently, at the time of the Besht, learned of Shabbatai's apostasy into Islam since news traveled much slower back then. Because of that Chassidic Judaism was looked at as a Secret or Pseudo-Sabbatian Movement for long time and certain heresy hunters really tried to suppress it. Wouldn't it be so convenient then to have a story where the Besht rejects Shabbatai Tzvi himself and throws him in a pit/abyss?
I’m afraid I don’t have much to add to this particular conversation at all, as I am constantly learning and am simply attempting to gain some understanding of a faith I at times struggle to proclaim with confidence, due to my own lack of understanding. I just wanted to say I appreciate your videos a lot, and it has helped me feel a little better about all of this and my own beliefs concerning God, Christ, and the Bible. Blessings to you, sir!
Precisely that point is brought up at the 0:13 mark and again at the 2:13 mark. The video is sharing a Hasidic legend, without requiring one to believe that legend reflects reality.
Shalom salaam It’s very likely Sabbatai Zevi was influenced by Alevism (big in Türkiye) which in itself is super similar to Christian doctrine, most of his followers had been Conversos and a lot of what he did may have seemed erratic but not against the laws of the Ger Toshav or Ger Hagerim aka (Nations or Forgeiners) in English translations. Also Sabbatai Zevi was and is currently the most famous Romaniote Hakham which this Rite of Judaism still reads from Isaiah 53 to a degree
because the Quran is not about a person called Muhammad, a prophet that is proposed by the hadith. in fact, the word MHMD is only mentioned 4 times in the Quran while one of which QS 33 verse 40 rejects the narrative of MHMD proposed by the hadith. If you were to use your critical thinking in textual reading of the Quran, you'd find out that the Quran is actually a Christian text. it tries to convey to its audience (particularly Jewish) that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, He is the 'suffering' Servant and the Angel of the Lord, who, since His ascension, have been living with Allah for more 2.000 years. Furthermore, the word ISLAM in the past, especially in the 7th century and particularly in the Quran, didn't mean the brand of a religion. it simply means 'submission', while the word DYN in the Quran originally meant Way of Life/Worship (According to Encylopedia of the Quran: prior to the 20th century, the Arabic word DYN had no direct equivalent in English, nor had the English word 'religion' in the Arabic). Hence, the original meaning of the words or phrase DYN ISLAM in the Quran was SUBMISSION as the Way of LIfe/Worship. Thus, the original meaning of the Quranic phrase 'the religion (DYN) in the sight of Allah is ISLAM' was 'the way of life (DYN) in the sight of Allah is SUBMISSION (islam)'. the concept of religion didn't exist in the 7th century. let alone the religion of Islam. In fact, the word religion was adopted into English in 1200 AD (Before Religion, A History of a Modern Concept, Brent Nongbri). Therefore, the prophet who lived in the 7th century knew nothing about religion of Islam because the way he understood the phrase DYN ISLAM would have not been 'the religion of Islam', rather 'Submission as the way of life/worship'. Just like other brands of religion such as Hinduism (the way of life in the Indus valley civilization, Catholics (Universal), Protestants , etc, the word Islam has its own original meaning. it simply meant Submission.
@@johncassuri2573 what is MHMD? can yo define what MHMD is? let me ask you a question: are the MHMD mentioned in the Quran and the person of Muhammad according to the hadith, the same thing? How do you know? how if I tell you that the word MHMD, meaning the Praised One, had been used as a divine title decades before Islam? so .. what is the original meaning of the Quranic MHMD? moreover, when did the concept of religion was invented? why did Jesus not establish His own religion? did at the time the modern concept religion exist? if there was no such thing as religion during the time of Jesus, how did the concept of religion suddenly existed in the 7th century .. that a prophet, called Muhammad, suddenly established a religion, a concept that no one knew at the time. In addition to that, he - the prophet - created the name or the brand for the new religion, Islam. So did Muhammad explain the concept of religion to his audience? if you read the Old Testament .. those things that you read are 'religion' .. diet was part of religion .. politics was part of religion .. etc. btw, if there was such thing as religion in the ancient times, what was the word for 'religion' in ancient languages? can you share them with me? just for your information, the word 'religion' was adopted into English in 1200 AD. and its early use, the meaning of the word religion was the way of worship that was exclusively used by Christians to describe various types of worship among Christian denominations. So .. was ISLAM a religion at the time? can you even divine religion?
1. This is interesting in regards to what do they believe Shabbatai had become after he died? Did he come to the Besht as a dybbuk? And what would they think was he doing for the several decades prior to this encounter if he was a wandering dybbuk? Fascinating stuff.
2. Also of note, I have a book of legends about the Besht as well, and some of the things said about him are really exalted and imo only really should be applied to Christ. So in that the Besht is almost Messianically exalted, its interesting that they would recognize Yeshua or Shabbatai Tzvi a "spark of Messiah". If its talking about our Lord then it makes sense because In the Talmud Sanhedrin 43a when it says that "Yeshu" was hung on Passover Eve, it does make a short end note that He was different because He was close to the kingdom. (אלא שאני ישו דקרוב למלכות הוה) the Steinsalts interprets it as close to the government, but I think Qarov L'Malchut could be a recognition that He, from their perspective, actually could have been the Messiah.
3. I wonder if this story could have developed as an apologetic against criticism of Chassidic Judaism. Many people were still reeling from the Messianic failure of Shabbatai Tzvi and many places had only recently, at the time of the Besht, learned of Shabbatai's apostasy into Islam since news traveled much slower back then. Because of that Chassidic Judaism was looked at as a Secret or Pseudo-Sabbatian Movement for long time and certain heresy hunters really tried to suppress it. Wouldn't it be so convenient then to have a story where the Besht rejects Shabbatai Tzvi himself and throws him in a pit/abyss?
Excellent comment. Had to pin it.
I’m afraid I don’t have much to add to this particular conversation at all, as I am constantly learning and am simply attempting to gain some understanding of a faith I at times struggle to proclaim with confidence, due to my own lack of understanding. I just wanted to say I appreciate your videos a lot, and it has helped me feel a little better about all of this and my own beliefs concerning God, Christ, and the Bible. Blessings to you, sir!
Thank you. That’s interesting
doesn't make sense. if i am correct the baal shem tov was chronologically 80-100 yrs after Zevi died.
Precisely that point is brought up at the 0:13 mark and again at the 2:13 mark.
The video is sharing a Hasidic legend, without requiring one to believe that legend reflects reality.
Shalom salaam It’s very likely Sabbatai Zevi was influenced by Alevism (big in Türkiye) which in itself is super similar to Christian doctrine, most of his followers had been Conversos and a lot of what he did may have seemed erratic but not against the laws of the Ger Toshav or Ger Hagerim aka (Nations or Forgeiners) in English translations.
Also Sabbatai Zevi was and is currently the most famous Romaniote Hakham which this Rite of Judaism still reads from Isaiah 53 to a degree
Every Judaism has Isaiah 53. There is not one Jewish publication that censors Isaiah at all. I challenge you to find one. Just one.
fine , but still does not subject a trinity .Even Rambam talked about this and Mohamad spreading god of Israel .
The Baal Shem Tov would khli dar bouh.
4:19 asking to be a dönmeh
because the Quran is not about a person called Muhammad, a prophet that is proposed by the hadith. in fact, the word MHMD is only mentioned 4 times in the Quran while one of which QS 33 verse 40 rejects the narrative of MHMD proposed by the hadith.
If you were to use your critical thinking in textual reading of the Quran, you'd find out that the Quran is actually a Christian text. it tries to convey to its audience (particularly Jewish) that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, He is the 'suffering' Servant and the Angel of the Lord, who, since His ascension, have been living with Allah for more 2.000 years.
Furthermore, the word ISLAM in the past, especially in the 7th century and particularly in the Quran, didn't mean the brand of a religion. it simply means 'submission', while the word DYN in the Quran originally meant Way of Life/Worship (According to Encylopedia of the Quran: prior to the 20th century, the Arabic word DYN had no direct equivalent in English, nor had the English word 'religion' in the Arabic). Hence, the original meaning of the words or phrase DYN ISLAM in the Quran was SUBMISSION as the Way of LIfe/Worship. Thus, the original meaning of the Quranic phrase 'the religion (DYN) in the sight of Allah is ISLAM' was 'the way of life (DYN) in the sight of Allah is SUBMISSION (islam)'.
the concept of religion didn't exist in the 7th century. let alone the religion of Islam. In fact, the word religion was adopted into English in 1200 AD (Before Religion, A History of a Modern Concept, Brent Nongbri). Therefore, the prophet who lived in the 7th century knew nothing about religion of Islam because the way he understood the phrase DYN ISLAM would have not been 'the religion of Islam', rather 'Submission as the way of life/worship'.
Just like other brands of religion such as Hinduism (the way of life in the Indus valley civilization, Catholics (Universal), Protestants , etc, the word Islam has its own original meaning. it simply meant Submission.
Wrong it's all about Mohammad, from the start to the end..
@@johncassuri2573 what is MHMD? can yo define what MHMD is?
let me ask you a question: are the MHMD mentioned in the Quran and the person of Muhammad according to the hadith, the same thing? How do you know?
how if I tell you that the word MHMD, meaning the Praised One, had been used as a divine title decades before Islam?
so .. what is the original meaning of the Quranic MHMD?
moreover, when did the concept of religion was invented? why did Jesus not establish His own religion? did at the time the modern concept religion exist?
if there was no such thing as religion during the time of Jesus, how did the concept of religion suddenly existed in the 7th century .. that a prophet, called Muhammad, suddenly established a religion, a concept that no one knew at the time. In addition to that, he - the prophet - created the name or the brand for the new religion, Islam.
So did Muhammad explain the concept of religion to his audience? if you read the Old Testament .. those things that you read are 'religion' .. diet was part of religion .. politics was part of religion .. etc.
btw, if there was such thing as religion in the ancient times, what was the word for 'religion' in ancient languages? can you share them with me?
just for your information, the word 'religion' was adopted into English in 1200 AD. and its early use, the meaning of the word religion was the way of worship that was exclusively used by Christians to describe various types of worship among Christian denominations. So .. was ISLAM a religion at the time?
can you even divine religion?