We had a 2011 Equinox towed in with a chain that jumped and caused the valves to hit the piston. After talking with several other shops around me, I learned this is a fairly common issue these engines are having. The vehicle we saw only had 99,000 miles on it. I really enjoyed watching your diagnosis.
When ours was done, the mechanic changed just about every sprocket that chain touched as they were all worn compared to new. He also changed the water pump, the tensioner, oiler (newer ones have a bigger orifice), and broken guides. What a royal pain!!
Someone had replaced both the timing chain and the water pump/balance shaft chain before, the timing chain from the factory had 2 red links and 1 green link and the water pump/balance shaft chain had 2 white links and a green one. But the give away for me was the front cover gasket being cut! GM doesn't cut those gaskets, techs do so they don't have to take off the engine mount! Great video and great explanation using the scope!
Wow, thank you for those observations! And I was surprised this one made it to 180k miles. So it seems there is no way one of these Ecotec engines makes it past 110k mikes without "surgery" lol
Right, ive seen some chains wear though that upper guide shearing off the metal and wrapping it around the crank making it not rotate.. Its a shame when the ecotecs were in the 2.2 form they were bullet proof as long as you changed the oil. Those engines are capable of some serious power but the fact that the chain is the weak point kind of puts a damper on that!
They really seem to have screwed the pooch with the timing system on the later Ecotec engines. Like you say, the older engines were never known for such issues.
This has to be one of the best series you have done this year. Very interesting case study. I can't believe GM has had so much trouble with their timing chains. I've seen a few petrol Vauxhalls which have suffered from jumped timing, no start, smashed valves and bits of tensioner in the bottom of the oil pan.
Ivan, great video showing the final results proved in previous episodes of this problem.You really dig into problem to prove conclusive test to find cause. Wish all auto repair people had the same resolve that you have. Keep up the work and great video. You and Eric at SMA are rare finds, I`am hooked on both of your videos.
If all that was caused by the low oil, which is very likely. you need pistons and rings as well. depending on the history of the vehicle. a high pressure fuel pump balance shaft chain and guides should also be changed. there are many special policies on these motors. My guess is when the high pressure pump leaks fuel into the crankcase, it thins the oil and causes all these problems. If you can monitor the high pressure fuel rail pressure on the scanner after priming it with engine off and it drops, I'd replace it. or get the recall done
My 07 chevy cobalt 2.0L supercharged had cracked piston rings, used to blow fuel into the oil lots. Thin oil caused the cam chain bolts to break (because the tensioner is pushed by oil pressure, no spring loaded).
One quick tip on that timing cover gasket, don't cut it with wire cutters. Your snips got right through it but I have seen guys try with some dull cutters and deform the gasket and have a leak right after. I cut it with a Dremel just so no pressure is applied to distort the gasket. If just changing the timing cover you don't need to remove the engine mount if you snip that piece out if you want to leave it intact the engine mount goes through the gasket for some ungodly reason, this comes in handy when you have to reset the balancer shaft chain tensioner after someone incorrectly replaced the water pump on those and you get a big whine from the motor that sounds like a bad alternator but is the balance shaft chain too tight.
Hi Ivan, I have a similar issue. Same codes but also had P228D, but engine just rebuilt, but still has original cam actuators. Also replaced the cheap aftermarket tensioner with the latest updated tensioner from GM. That has helped some, but after doing idle relearn, the car would not learn a new idle. Hunted like crazy from 500 to 1000 rpm. Base oil pressure at idle hot is 25 psi and 80 at 4K. Measured at block from oil pressure sensor port. Engine is noisy as hell at hot idle. LIke a diesel. P228D, P0016, P0011, P0089, P0300 were all codes in the engine. Was redone due to excessive oil consumption. Only code now is p0300 which only happened after 15 min at idle. when cold, engine idles good, and quiet. fuel trims look good. Less then 10% on short term. O2 cycles well but the cat is done. 175K miles. Other mechanic used Dorman solenoids for the cam actuators. The major hunting at idle issue was simply carbon and sludge buildup in the throttle body. After doing a idle relearn it could not relearn it's idle because of the sludge build-up. So after I cleaned the throttle body the idle hunting issue has gone away and currently it's not throwing any more codes but it's still will occasionally have a small minor stumble at idle but not enough to throw any codes and the idle will ever-so-slightly hunt. I have not checked the misfire codes at this point since I've had the battery disconnected and I believe most all of those counters have been cleared out at this point but I will check. The other thing that was interesting about this one is that the engine has been completely rebuilt about a hundred fifty to two hundred miles ago and all the timing chain components have been replaced other than the phasers. They put some cheap aftermarket tensioner which was the old style tensioner I replaced that also. Which seems to have helped with Cam and crankshaft timing correlation issues. The other interesting thing is is that when this engine is hot you have 25 psi oil pressure in the block and only 2 to 3 PSI in the head. When the engine is cold do you have you have about 80 psi on the Block in about 60 PSI in the head. The other thing is when at idle and the engine is hot you can hear a large amount of timing chain and valve train noise however if you disconnect the exhaust cam actuator solenoid, all the valve train noise goes away and the engine is very quiet. If you look at your camshaft pids' you'll see that at idle the exhaust cam is commanded at 5 degrees and the intake cam is commanded at 16 degrees which both correspond to the desired specs, and there is no variance issues. If you command higher or lower timing Advance on the cams they correspond accordingly even with that low of oil pressure in the head. If you command exhaust cam to 0 degrees or disconnect the solenoid, the valve train noise dissappears. As far as closed-loop operation this engine won't even begin to stumble or Miss until after 30 or 40 minutes of driving and only does it at idle after it's been idling for 5 or 10 minutes after a decently Long Highway Drive. Also noticed if you let it idle for extended time, the noise will clear up. Almost like oil starvation to the head? Thoughts?
Thanks! It kind of threw me for a loop at first and I thought the calibration was off...but those were indeed the real pressure values in the cylinder!
I just saved one of these motors today, chain hadn't jumped yet but was just as loose as yours. Only found it because of a leaky valve cover I recommended to a customer just finished the primary and balance chain kit installs. Crank sprocket plastic sections had fallen apart on one side of the sprocket, and the balance shaft chain was loose beyond the max tensioner adjustment. 96000 miles
For anybody that is watching with a newer than 2012 vehicle. You WILL need the special tool that he didn't use. Gm redesigned the gears so the outer portions of the gears are not attached to the camshaft and so even holding the camshaft with a wrench. that Center piece can turn when making your final 180 degree torque. Which will make the phaser portion of the gear not be set right.
I’d never buy direct injection. Not until they find a way to keep the intake valves from getting crud built up on them and causing leakage. Nice diagnosis 👍🏼 job well done.
Hey Ivan. Check out the Brownline torque angle meter. It has a magnetic base that you can just stick it to a ratchet or breaker bar. I bought one about 2 years ago from the Matco guy. I tested out and is 100% accurate. Tons cheaper than the electronic torque wrenches. I do a lot of 6.0 Powerstroke head gaskets for a cheapskate who won't pay for the studs. Works awesome with a breaker bar and cheater pipe for the final 90 degree pull.
Thank you so much this was the troubleshoot that I was looking for my GMC terrain got the same symptoms and I appreciate you I’ve been looking for this information for the last couple months searching and searching and nothing , and finally I find the right information with you thank you so much bro !! You definitely know what you doing !!! Thanks again and good luck
Hello Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics, Love you video series and this one was quite interesting, but have issue with your proposed timing chain elongation question. The timing due to chain "stretch" is negligible at the sprocket (proposed 8deg off) as the chain is captive by each tooth. The problem with elongated timing chains is most evident in the longest distance between sprockets under tension. In this case is would be between the intake cam and the crank shaft. Would be surprised if timing off by more than 1deg with elongated chain. Most failures are chain guides, followers, or tensioning system. Cheers and keep posting, Mr. P
I drive like an old granny, never speed, race or over-rev 3500 max. Keep an eye on oil dip and watch the actual engine coolant temp reported by the ECM (not what the dash-gauge says). Why those kids rev at 5000 rpm to show off, bloody idiots.
My friend has such a car and the diagnosis is p0011 the car is working fine but when I press a little bit on the accelerator pedal a little bit by 1 percent the engine suddenly turns off what is the reason I replaced a new cvvt the wires are all good what is the reason why I doubt that the malfunction is mechanical
When crankshaft position sensor is not working the car turs off. Or in my case, my car started turning off suddenly in the traffic lights or turning. When the chain was completely loose, it did't turn on anymore. When I opened it, I could see what I am saying. The chain was loose and completely out of position. And all the plastic tensioner broke into pieces, which clogged the oil pan filter completely.
great series. theory testing math and it all lines up and makes sense.torque and turn as we called it (torque to yeild)requires one part to remain statonary. thus why the special tool.impossible to hold by hand and turn with the other.although i doubt you'll have any problems with this repair , but it is a concern. and really im not sure how much i'd trust that torque wrench.i tried one and it was off. i think you were right thinking paint marker.
Great video I had the broken tensioner with codes P0016 P0017 Replaced it with timing kit # Duralast / Timing Set Part Number: 7620 No cam phasers included Upon start up ran rough with a P0011 P0014 P0017 I didn't use any specialty tools ! Disappointment came to mind. Slept on it ...zzz picoscope!! Zzz... Next day I Actuated cam phasers thru scan tool Did that once....twice and then it idle properly My conclusion ? Air in the hydraulic system after my rebuild. The replacement guide didn't look updated. I wonder how long til it needs to be disturbed
Hey man. Just wanted to correct you. The new part as mentioned "Actuator" @ 7:25 is actually the cam phaser. The actuators or solenoids are located behind them vertically up and down. They are what allows oil flow to the phasers to correlate variable valve timing
Awesome work gentlemen. The critical thinking pauses are great. They force me reach for the calculator. Nice to see that the degrees of mismatch in theory matched the actual. Kinda reminds me of science labs in college - LOL!
Your friend Jim seems a decent and knowledgeable mechanic.Great fix and great torque wrench. I love it when it lights up and buzzes and includes angles.Does Snap on have giveaways ? Pico seems up to the task.When I see you do the maths, I see an engineer in action. Must take after your dad.
did you inspect oil filter for metal shavings? what about the guide, was it broken? and if yes did the chain eat into the guide bolt? if yes to any of these questions the car will be back
I am not sure about a Torque Wrench that beeps/buzzes ... I am still enthralled with the J.C. Penny torque wrench I bought in 1973 it SNAPS with authority at the proper setting
Yeah, the new tech is nice, but nothing beats an old reliable click-type wrench. Almost like automatic vs. stick-shift...you know which one I'll take any day of the year ;)
o 'Having calibrated torque wrenches, the internal springs lose their "power" and must be calibrated at least once a year. I like the "click type also." My shop calibrated torque wrenches that were used on the propellers of Pratt & Whitney R-2800 engines. (2,000 HP). These were BIG wrenches - think it took two men when torquing.
Love ya work mate. You can see you are still learning new techniques and not quite sure of yourself at times but the way you think it through to get the correct diagnosis is awesome. Nine thumbs down wow, Must be Eric O havin some fun ;)
Would be interesting to see the oil change history on this engine. Never thought they used spring timing tensioners on the ecotec. More dependable than hydraulic when people let the oil level go low which is pretty common. I worked on a GM 3.5L with a four quart capacity that was three quarts low and still ran well! Iam sure neglect and stupidity is accounted for somewhat in the engine design.
3.8 liter is a great engine had 07 buick lacrosse with the series 3 in it one of the best cars i've owned 230000 miles nothing but oil changes and a wheel bearing. Deer ended it's life last year.
A LOT of stuff relating to roller chains comes from France. Over here they still spell the bicycle part "derailleur" because that's where that piece of technology came from. Basically, bicycles have driven all development of roller chain tech.
What's with the wonky chain stretch mathinomics. I don't agree with that critical thinking question one bit. If what you said is remotely true there would be a visible length difference in the two chains. I would lean towards lack of tension allowed to much whip in the chain causing it to skip across the gear probably upon deceleration.
Hey Ivan! I loved the information on your video. I have a question regarding the 2014 Equinox 2.4L. I've run into the same exact problem(PO016). Upon inspection of all the old timing parts I realized the right chain guard which is black had snapped. When I try to put the new timing chain on the marks don't line up and I don't know which cam to rotate in which direction. Should I figure TDC at cylinder 1 then proceed to degreeing the cams? Do you have any advice if there's a faster or easier way of solving this problem? TIA!
I was fixing an Sorento xm.p0011 & p0014.its keep telling exhaust cam over advanced or inlet cam.112.38°,which over 0.38°.hope u can do more video about counting degree way to help us how to count.apreciate very much.
Funny, we had similar truck at work not long ago (Maybe Terrain) with a solenoid fault code with the chain rattling. The customer had already replaced the intake and exhaust oil control solenoids. We told them that the chain was likely stretched and required disassembly for inspection and they decided to take it with them. It quit about 5 min. away.....The chain jumped and bent all of the exhaust valves. The customer decided he wanted a low mileage salvage engine as it was burning a lot of oil too.
is that the 3.6 litre engine. those are so common for the timing chain stretch, because GM had the chains made in China. the updated ones are made else where, or so they say.
now that I look at that engine, its not. its been awhile since I did one, but the 3.6 has 3 timing chains. an you have to drop the whole engine/trans and subframe out the bottom to do the chains.
kenman1717 that's a 2.4l 4 cylinder engine found in several gm vehicles. It has two chains. One is used to drive the cam shafts. The second is used to drive the counter ballance shaft.
Great video series sir. Love the diagnostic process and post repair scope captures. Was curious why you didn't replace the exhaust phaser also? Not a criticism, just curious. I've always been of the school that you do everything when it comes to timing components, especially in cases like this. Nevertheless an excellent job!
I may have missed something over the course of these three videos, but I have a sick 2010 Equinox with similar symptoms and codes, and I would like to know if fixing the timing chain/phaser/tensioner issues took care of the ALL of the original codes that popped up at the beginning of the first video, or was something else done to take care of them? If one had been on a budget, or just trying to get it to run long enough to trade it, would simply changing the intake phaser and repositioning the existing chain on the intake sprocket in the correct place, along with a new, or carefully cleaned & reset chain tensioner, have been sufficient to fix the problem?
Am working on the same Chvy, the car came with engine stalling , I scanned the the car and the faults code is p0011 which is intake camshaft actuator range performance, I changed the sensor into new one but still the same intake appear if you spark and press full acceleration, I checked all the wire continuity everything is ok, I need your.
If that was run low on oil and perhaps pooched the intake actuator, would it not be wise to change out the exhaust one while you were there ? Don't know how much the actuators are but if reasonable put them both in and your not buying another gasket, pre-loaded tensioner, cam bolts etc. Just a thought.
That cross member on the gasket is supposed to be there. If you have everything disassembled properly it would fit perfectly.with the piece you cut off.
Ivan Re the stretched chain. Surely the whole length is not important. The length from the cam sprocket to the crank sprocket on the tight or tension side that actually drives the cam is what matters, I would have thought there could be lots of extra length on the tensioner side as that doesn't matter it's only slack that's not used productively. I think?
Right...but the entire chain stretches evenly, so it's easier to measure the total chain stretch and then divide in half to see how far the cam was off. This is what I showed in the video :)
I'm not sure on the math explanation on that part is quite right. You said it was off 1/2 tooth over half the chain. And one tooth is 15.6 degrees. If it's off 1/2 tooth over half the chain, then it's off 1 tooth over the whole chain, or the whole 720 degree engine cycle. Which is 15.6 degrees. But then as stated above, only half the chain is tensioned and driving the gear, which puts us back to 1/2 of 15.6. The end result is 7.8 degrees retarded on timing because the chain is 15.6 degrees stretched.
No, the slack doesn't just all go to the tensioner side of the chain. It will pull all the sprockets towards the tensioner. Usually this retards the timing of the camshafts.
How is it that my old 500cc Yamaha motorcycle has a double-row chain and all these new chain drive motors have single row chains? All of a sudden timing belts with normal change intervals don't look so bad eh?
Exactly! Granted my '89 MPV 4-banger has a single-row chain, but beefier than this junker for sure. Minimal chain stretch in 242k miles and original tensioner is doing fine. I think timing belt and non-interference design is the best combination ;)
Where you located, i have a 2014 terrain same engine, might need some work like that, but only have 65k on it with a P0011 code I already had those position sensors replaced already hasn't been a whole year, & engine light on again.
how did the cam timing get 3 teeth off was the whole assembly that worn so much that it was able to jump teeth? great video series thanks for taking the time to show us
Did you check to see if the pistons had contacted the valves? That happened to my Vauxhall Corsa (UK) when the timing chain jumped and totaled the engine
Ouch, sorry to hear that. In this case since the intake valve timing was late and engine still ran, there was no engine damage. Owner got lucky, once again.
You can set the Snap-on Tech Angle torque wrench for torque plus angle and as soon as you get done with the torque you can go right into the angle. You can also set it for the # of bolts you have and it records every bolt...lots of menu features TSB PIP5203C for the P0089 & P228D concerns PN issues with intake camshafts, intake camshaft actuators being different 2010 and 2011& up so the waveform was off & you proved it...your ears and pressure transducer told the real story b/c no way was that retarded only @20 degrees. Getting it back in time fixed the P0089 & P228D also. Awesome repair time and now you have a good waveform to share to the Pico library...it'll save some other Pico user a lot of time & hair pulling...maybe me Pico buffer is great for long screen captures and any other scope would be aliasing. As usual great interesting case study, diagnosis & repair and as soon as you posted it my Sunday was complete :D Thanks Ivan
I have to say, you write some of the most informative comments on my channel, and I don't even know your first name! Mr. Hayward? Anyways, I might have to come up with a "commenter of the year" award :)
HAHA It's Bob. I'm originally from Johnstown, NY and whenever I'm driving up there to visit my family I plan on stopping by to see you, Eric, and Keith just to shake your hand. :D
I wish service data put out how long the chain is new and how long it can stretch to so it makes it easier to measure instead of guessing or buying a new one to compare but by the time you compare it, it makes it harder to return a open package.
Nice case study. Great use of Pico and AES adapters. How much did you charge for troubleshooting? I find that customers STILL think that they should only pay for the repair, and maybe one hour for diagnosis.
I wonder how long this owner was driving with the camshaft codes. They were really flirting with disaster. Btw, pull that PCV clean air tube and see if it's full of coffee. Haha
chungaleta1234 His die hard fans own the parts cannon copywrite. "Hey scotty my cavalier is stumbling. I've replaced the plugs wires coils fuel pump MAF IAC all filters and knock sensor. What could it be?". "Its probably the transmission. Those automatic transmissions are the worst. Just get a toyota"
Lol!!!! And in spite of that and everything else, I watch his show. the guy is funny and created a diff style of making vids. I've always wondered if he was the first mechanic who got fame by posting repair vids on youtube.
i just did this about 4 months ago for my girl and she let the oil get low and now she got the p0016 and 17 codes and i just took it apart and i do not see anything out of time. the crank is at 12 o clock and the cams are 10 and 2 o clock so i;m not sure what to do. i changed the crank sensor the other day and the code returned, do you have any ideas? i wonder if the chain wore in that drive enough to cause both cams to go out of adjustment? i do not have a good chain to compare only the old one. thanks.
Hey, same shit. I replaced the timing chain and i used the improved tensioner bolt, i also replaced phasers and actuators. It sounds great but now i have p0016, p0014 and sometimes p0011. So, i was thinking of replacing the sensor like you. Did you solve it?
are those a hydraulic/spring loaded tensioner? I would imaging that lack of oil and changes probably buggered up the actuator and tensioner on that car.....nice repair BTW! Thanks for sharing, look forward to more!
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We had a 2011 Equinox towed in with a chain that jumped and caused the valves to hit the piston. After talking with several other shops around me, I learned this is a fairly common issue these engines are having. The vehicle we saw only had 99,000 miles on it. I really enjoyed watching your diagnosis.
Thanks! Seems like this is the epitome of the "modern disposable vehicle"...
Mine did the same thing
When ours was done, the mechanic changed just about every sprocket that chain touched as they were all worn compared to new. He also changed the water pump, the tensioner, oiler (newer ones have a bigger orifice), and broken guides. What a royal pain!!
Someone had replaced both the timing chain and the water pump/balance shaft chain before, the timing chain from the factory had 2 red links and 1 green link and the water pump/balance shaft chain had 2 white links and a green one. But the give away for me was the front cover gasket being cut! GM doesn't cut those gaskets, techs do so they don't have to take off the engine mount! Great video and great explanation using the scope!
Wow, thank you for those observations! And I was surprised this one made it to 180k miles. So it seems there is no way one of these Ecotec engines makes it past 110k mikes without "surgery" lol
Right, ive seen some chains wear though that upper guide shearing off the metal and wrapping it around the crank making it not rotate.. Its a shame when the ecotecs were in the 2.2 form they were bullet proof as long as you changed the oil. Those engines are capable of some serious power but the fact that the chain is the weak point kind of puts a damper on that!
They really seem to have screwed the pooch with the timing system on the later Ecotec engines. Like you say, the older engines were never known for such issues.
This has to be one of the best series you have done this year. Very interesting case study.
I can't believe GM has had so much trouble with their timing chains. I've seen a few petrol Vauxhalls which have suffered from jumped timing, no start, smashed valves and bits of tensioner in the bottom of the oil pan.
man the mathematics of this is spot on Ivan, older video but learning never stops.. amazing work!!!
Ivan, great video showing the final results proved in previous episodes of this problem.You really dig into problem to prove conclusive test to find cause. Wish all auto repair people had the same resolve that you have. Keep up the work and great video. You and Eric at SMA are rare finds, I`am hooked on both of your videos.
Sweet just sat down and cracked a beer open on my day off and here is part three I've been waiting for what perfect timing.
Extremely helpful for us equinox owners 👍🏼😎🏁🏁🏁🏁
always nice when the diagnosis proves to be spot on. Great work
I was amazed how well the numbers matched up. Warm and fuzzy feeling lol
If all that was caused by the low oil, which is very likely. you need pistons and rings as well. depending on the history of the vehicle. a high pressure fuel pump balance shaft chain and guides should also be changed. there are many special policies on these motors. My guess is when the high pressure pump leaks fuel into the crankcase, it thins the oil and causes all these problems. If you can monitor the high pressure fuel rail pressure on the scanner after priming it with engine off and it drops, I'd replace it. or get the recall done
My 07 chevy cobalt 2.0L supercharged had cracked piston rings, used to blow fuel into the oil lots. Thin oil caused the cam chain bolts to break (because the tensioner is pushed by oil pressure, no spring loaded).
One quick tip on that timing cover gasket, don't cut it with wire cutters. Your snips got right through it but I have seen guys try with some dull cutters and deform the gasket and have a leak right after. I cut it with a Dremel just so no pressure is applied to distort the gasket. If just changing the timing cover you don't need to remove the engine mount if you snip that piece out if you want to leave it intact the engine mount goes through the gasket for some ungodly reason, this comes in handy when you have to reset the balancer shaft chain tensioner after someone incorrectly replaced the water pump on those and you get a big whine from the motor that sounds like a bad alternator but is the balance shaft chain too tight.
Hi Ivan, I have a similar issue. Same codes but also had P228D, but engine just rebuilt, but still has original cam actuators. Also replaced the cheap aftermarket tensioner with the latest updated tensioner from GM. That has helped some, but after doing idle relearn, the car would not learn a new idle. Hunted like crazy from 500 to 1000 rpm. Base oil pressure at idle hot is 25 psi and 80 at 4K. Measured at block from oil pressure sensor port. Engine is noisy as hell at hot idle. LIke a diesel. P228D, P0016, P0011, P0089, P0300 were all codes in the engine. Was redone due to excessive oil consumption. Only code now is p0300 which only happened after 15 min at idle. when cold, engine idles good, and quiet. fuel trims look good. Less then 10% on short term. O2 cycles well but the cat is done. 175K miles. Other mechanic used Dorman solenoids for the cam actuators.
The major hunting at idle issue was simply carbon and sludge buildup in the throttle body. After doing a idle relearn it could not relearn it's idle because of the sludge build-up. So after I cleaned the throttle body the idle hunting issue has gone away and currently it's not throwing any more codes but it's still will occasionally have a small minor stumble at idle but not enough to throw any codes and the idle will ever-so-slightly hunt. I have not checked the misfire codes at this point since I've had the battery disconnected and I believe most all of those counters have been cleared out at this point but I will check. The other thing that was interesting about this one is that the engine has been completely rebuilt about a hundred fifty to two hundred miles ago and all the timing chain components have been replaced other than the phasers. They put some cheap aftermarket tensioner which was the old style tensioner I replaced that also. Which seems to have helped with Cam and crankshaft timing correlation issues. The other interesting thing is is that when this engine is hot you have 25 psi oil pressure in the block and only 2 to 3 PSI in the head. When the engine is cold do you have you have about 80 psi on the Block in about 60 PSI in the head. The other thing is when at idle and the engine is hot you can hear a large amount of timing chain and valve train noise however if you disconnect the exhaust cam actuator solenoid, all the valve train noise goes away and the engine is very quiet. If you look at your camshaft pids' you'll see that at idle the exhaust cam is commanded at 5 degrees and the intake cam is commanded at 16 degrees which both correspond to the desired specs, and there is no variance issues. If you command higher or lower timing Advance on the cams they correspond accordingly even with that low of oil pressure in the head. If you command exhaust cam to 0 degrees or disconnect the solenoid, the valve train noise dissappears. As far as closed-loop operation this engine won't even begin to stumble or Miss until after 30 or 40 minutes of driving and only does it at idle after it's been idling for 5 or 10 minutes after a decently Long Highway Drive. Also noticed if you let it idle for extended time, the noise will clear up. Almost like oil starvation to the head?
Thoughts?
So carbon and sludge cleaning from throttle took off all the codes away?
you're such a scientist, Ivan ..!!
nice troubleshooting
Great case study!! The psi transducer waveform was pretty sweet. Nice job
Thanks! It kind of threw me for a loop at first and I thought the calibration was off...but those were indeed the real pressure values in the cylinder!
Threw me too. I'm like where's the intake valve opening at. And math was never my thing. Lol
I just saved one of these motors today, chain hadn't jumped yet but was just as loose as yours. Only found it because of a leaky valve cover I recommended to a customer just finished the primary and balance chain kit installs. Crank sprocket plastic sections had fallen apart on one side of the sprocket, and the balance shaft chain was loose beyond the max tensioner adjustment. 96000 miles
Also, my "suitable tool" was the rubber handle of my cornwell 3lb sledge lmao.
For anybody that is watching with a newer than 2012 vehicle. You WILL need the special tool that he didn't use. Gm redesigned the gears so the outer portions of the gears are not attached to the camshaft and so even holding the camshaft with a wrench. that Center piece can turn when making your final 180 degree torque. Which will make the phaser portion of the gear not be set right.
Is that so for a 2012 or no?
@@cottonhi-sk1yh just did a 2012 regal 2.4 today. Cams are indexed to the sprockets, used a 24mm wrench to hold the cams.
@@archangel3237He said newer than 2012 so 2013 and up
I’d never buy direct injection. Not until they find a way to keep the intake valves from getting crud built up on them and causing leakage. Nice diagnosis 👍🏼 job well done.
Catch cans work wonders.
once again you have proved that math doesn't lie. awesome closure.
haha if the math lies, then it's 100% guaranteed user error!
So true, and with terrible math skills that's normally the case. Thanks for the support.
Hey Ivan. Check out the Brownline torque angle meter. It has a magnetic base that you can just stick it to a ratchet or breaker bar. I bought one about 2 years ago from the Matco guy. I tested out and is 100% accurate. Tons cheaper than the electronic torque wrenches. I do a lot of 6.0 Powerstroke head gaskets for a cheapskate who won't pay for the studs. Works awesome with a breaker bar and cheater pipe for the final 90 degree pull.
Thank you so much this was the troubleshoot that I was looking for my GMC terrain got the same symptoms and I appreciate you I’ve been looking for this information for the last couple months searching and searching and nothing , and finally I find the right information with you thank you so much bro !! You definitely know what you doing !!! Thanks again and good luck
Thanks for the comment, Felix. Good luck with your GMC Terrain!
Hello Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics,
Love you video series and this one was quite interesting, but have issue with your proposed timing chain elongation question.
The timing due to chain "stretch" is negligible at the sprocket (proposed 8deg off) as the chain is captive by each tooth. The problem with elongated timing chains is most evident in the longest distance between sprockets under tension. In this case is would be between the intake cam and the crank shaft. Would be surprised if timing off by more than 1deg with elongated chain. Most failures are chain guides, followers, or tensioning system.
Cheers and keep posting,
Mr. P
Hey Ivan, nice diagnostics and repair
long timing chains are built to break, to wear one out before it time , fast acceleration, and don,t change the oil!
I drive like an old granny, never speed, race or over-rev 3500 max. Keep an eye on oil dip and watch the actual engine coolant temp reported by the ECM (not what the dash-gauge says). Why those kids rev at 5000 rpm to show off, bloody idiots.
My friend has such a car and the diagnosis is p0011 the car is working fine but when I press a little bit on the accelerator pedal a little bit by 1 percent the engine suddenly turns off what is the reason I replaced a new cvvt the wires are all good what is the reason why I doubt that the malfunction is mechanical
When crankshaft position sensor is not working the car turs off. Or in my case, my car started turning off suddenly in the traffic lights or turning. When the chain was completely loose, it did't turn on anymore. When I opened it, I could see what I am saying. The chain was loose and completely out of position. And all the plastic tensioner broke into pieces, which clogged the oil pan filter completely.
Good to see the Fix, Thank's Ivan.
great series. theory testing math and it all lines up and makes sense.torque and turn as we called it (torque to yeild)requires one part to remain statonary. thus why the special tool.impossible to hold by hand and turn with the other.although i doubt you'll have any problems with this repair , but it is a concern. and really im not sure how much i'd trust that torque wrench.i tried one and it was off. i think you were right thinking paint marker.
You da man Ivan!
Great vid. Ivan Chock full of information and great workmanship! Keep it up son!(I am old so I can call you son)
Great video
I had the broken tensioner with codes
P0016 P0017
Replaced it with timing kit #
Duralast / Timing Set
Part Number: 7620
No cam phasers included
Upon start up ran rough with a
P0011 P0014 P0017
I didn't use any specialty tools !
Disappointment came to mind.
Slept on it ...zzz picoscope!! Zzz...
Next day I Actuated cam phasers thru scan tool
Did that once....twice and then it idle properly
My conclusion ?
Air in the hydraulic system after my rebuild.
The replacement guide didn't look updated. I wonder how long til it needs to be disturbed
Hey man. Just wanted to correct you. The new part as mentioned "Actuator" @ 7:25 is actually the cam phaser. The actuators or solenoids are located behind them vertically up and down. They are what allows oil flow to the phasers to correlate variable valve timing
Do you know what part # for that cam phaser is?
Great series Ivan. Thanks!
Awesome work gentlemen. The critical thinking pauses are great. They force me reach for the calculator. Nice to see that the degrees of mismatch in theory matched the actual. Kinda reminds me of science labs in college - LOL!
good job....although you need to use your seatbelt during test drives! Sure hate to lose good diagnostics from you ;)
Leo Jimenez also hate those annoying bing sounds.
Leo Jimenez good point! don't want Ivan injured. always always always wear your seatbelt
Your friend Jim seems a decent and knowledgeable mechanic.Great fix and great torque wrench. I love it when it lights up and buzzes and includes angles.Does Snap on have giveaways ? Pico seems up to the task.When I see you do the maths, I see an engineer in action. Must take after your dad.
did you inspect oil filter for metal shavings? what about the guide, was it broken? and if yes did the chain eat into the guide bolt? if yes to any of these questions the car will be back
watching you rip open that chain package was like watching my kids at christmas
I am not sure about a Torque Wrench that beeps/buzzes ...
I am still enthralled with the J.C. Penny torque wrench I bought in 1973
it SNAPS with authority at the proper setting
you may not be able to find it one day and the wife will have it :))
I still have It ..!!
not the Ex, tho .. :))
Yeah, the new tech is nice, but nothing beats an old reliable click-type wrench. Almost like automatic vs. stick-shift...you know which one I'll take any day of the year ;)
Ivan could not do 100 degrees in one stroke. He needed every feature that thing had.
o
'Having calibrated torque wrenches, the internal springs lose their "power" and must be calibrated at least once a year. I like the "click type also." My shop calibrated torque wrenches that were used on the propellers of Pratt & Whitney R-2800 engines. (2,000 HP). These were BIG wrenches - think it took two men when torquing.
Love ya work mate. You can see you are still learning new techniques and not quite sure of yourself at times but the way you think it through to get the correct diagnosis is awesome. Nine thumbs down wow, Must be Eric O havin some fun ;)
I love TH-cam... LOL! Thanks for the informative video! At 5:50... Crazy!!
Cool case study Ivan. Nice work with the Pico and pressure transducer. You should give Erik's light back by the way..
I knew it jumped time. I didn't think it jumped 3 teeth though. I was think one or two. guess I should have done the math. nice work buddy.
Would be interesting to see the oil change history on this engine. Never thought they used spring timing tensioners on the ecotec. More dependable than hydraulic when people let the oil level go low which is pretty common. I worked on a GM 3.5L with a four quart capacity that was three quarts low and still ran well! Iam sure neglect and stupidity is accounted for somewhat in the engine design.
Or the Buick 3.8 pushrod V6...no maintenance required lol
3.8 liter is a great engine had 07 buick lacrosse with the series 3 in it one of the best cars i've owned 230000 miles nothing but oil changes and a wheel bearing. Deer ended it's life last year.
You look better without the beard thing now. Yea I'm scooping out the older videos.
A LOT of stuff relating to roller chains comes from France. Over here they still spell the bicycle part "derailleur" because that's where that piece of technology came from. Basically, bicycles have driven all development of roller chain tech.
What's with the wonky chain stretch mathinomics. I don't agree with that critical thinking question one bit. If what you said is remotely true there would be a visible length difference in the two chains. I would lean towards lack of tension allowed to much whip in the chain causing it to skip across the gear probably upon deceleration.
Hey Ivan! I loved the information on your video. I have a question regarding the 2014 Equinox 2.4L. I've run into the same exact problem(PO016). Upon inspection of all the old timing parts I realized the right chain guard which is black had snapped. When I try to put the new timing chain on the marks don't line up and I don't know which cam to rotate in which direction. Should I figure TDC at cylinder 1 then proceed to degreeing the cams? Do you have any advice if there's a faster or easier way of solving this problem? TIA!
I was fixing an Sorento xm.p0011 & p0014.its keep telling exhaust cam over advanced or inlet cam.112.38°,which over 0.38°.hope u can do more video about counting degree way to help us how to count.apreciate very much.
good fix Ivan thanks for all that info. cheeeeeers
South main auto have that torque wrench you should have one too.
My birthday is coming up this week...want to send me one? ;)
That'd be a sweet birthday present at @$600 for the flex head and @$560 for the std head. Ebay @$250-300.
I just bought one two weeks ago. There great
Wowww very scientific and precise diag!
Well done, guys. It sure could have been a lot worse. At least it should go a few more miles without the problem returning.
Just enough time for the customer to save some more $$ to dump into the "GM money pit" haha
Funny, we had similar truck at work not long ago (Maybe Terrain) with a solenoid fault code with the chain rattling. The customer had already replaced the intake and exhaust oil control solenoids.
We told them that the chain was likely stretched and required disassembly for inspection and they decided to take it with them. It quit about 5 min. away.....The chain jumped and bent all of the exhaust valves.
The customer decided he wanted a low mileage salvage engine as it was burning a lot of oil too.
Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics yup gm money pit.. and just all round made cheap
Since power on the road test was disappointing, would have been nice to see the re-do on the compression and vacuum tests.
is that the 3.6 litre engine. those are so common for the timing chain stretch, because GM had the chains made in China. the updated ones are made else where, or so they say.
now that I look at that engine, its not. its been awhile since I did one, but the 3.6 has 3 timing chains. an you have to drop the whole engine/trans and subframe out the bottom to do the chains.
kenman1717 that's a 2.4l 4 cylinder engine found in several gm vehicles. It has two chains. One is used to drive the cam shafts. The second is used to drive the counter ballance shaft.
you can do them in the car, its a lot easier to drop everything out, but its faster to do them in the car!
Great video series sir. Love the diagnostic process and post repair scope captures. Was curious why you didn't replace the exhaust phaser also? Not a criticism, just curious. I've always been of the school that you do everything when it comes to timing components, especially in cases like this. Nevertheless an excellent job!
I was thinking the same ,great video.
I don’t know why everyone worries so much about being Exact on angle. As long as you’re close its fine, it ain’t gonna come apart.
Where can I find someone like you in Philadelphia i got 2012 Equinox that given me problems with variable valve timing I need help
I don’t think chain stretch is the issue is usually the tensioning mechanism or the guide
I may have missed something over the course of these three videos, but I have a sick 2010 Equinox with similar symptoms and codes, and I would like to know if fixing the timing chain/phaser/tensioner issues took care of the ALL of the original codes that popped up at the beginning of the first video, or was something else done to take care of them? If one had been on a budget, or just trying to get it to run long enough to trade it, would simply changing the intake phaser and repositioning the existing chain on the intake sprocket in the correct place, along with a new, or carefully cleaned & reset chain tensioner, have been sufficient to fix the problem?
How long was the whole process I'm in the state of Georgia and trying to get this done any of your shots out here
Great video...i want to know what is the website that you used for your reference in fixing your suv? Tnx
What software are u using on the computer? That info is incredible. How much does it cost?
ivan put ur seatbelt on other wise you might end up in whats at your left 31:10
Am working on the same Chvy, the car came with engine stalling , I scanned the the car and the faults code is p0011 which is intake camshaft actuator range performance, I changed the sensor into new one but still the same intake appear if you spark and press full acceleration, I checked all the wire continuity everything is ok, I need your.
If that was run low on oil and perhaps pooched the intake actuator, would it not be wise to change out the exhaust one while you were there ? Don't know how much the actuators are but if reasonable put them both in and your not buying another gasket, pre-loaded tensioner, cam bolts etc.
Just a thought.
They are like $200 a pop...if it ain't broke then leave it alone is my policy :)
Thanks brother for info
That cross member on the gasket is supposed to be there. If you have everything disassembled properly it would fit perfectly.with the piece you cut off.
Ivan
Re the stretched chain. Surely the whole length is not important. The length from the cam sprocket to the crank sprocket on the tight or tension side that actually drives the cam is what matters, I would have thought there could be lots of extra length on the tensioner side as that doesn't matter it's only slack that's not used productively. I think?
Right...but the entire chain stretches evenly, so it's easier to measure the total chain stretch and then divide in half to see how far the cam was off. This is what I showed in the video :)
I'm not sure on the math explanation on that part is quite right. You said it was off 1/2 tooth over half the chain. And one tooth is 15.6 degrees. If it's off 1/2 tooth over half the chain, then it's off 1 tooth over the whole chain, or the whole 720 degree engine cycle. Which is 15.6 degrees. But then as stated above, only half the chain is tensioned and driving the gear, which puts us back to 1/2 of 15.6. The end result is 7.8 degrees retarded on timing because the chain is 15.6 degrees stretched.
The chain has jumped 3 teeth on the cam sprocket, thats where the 45 ish deg comes in. The chain stretch is probably negligible if it were only that
No, the slack doesn't just all go to the tensioner side of the chain. It will pull all the sprockets towards the tensioner. Usually this retards the timing of the camshafts.
How is it that my old 500cc Yamaha motorcycle has a double-row chain and all these new chain drive motors have single row chains? All of a sudden timing belts with normal change intervals don't look so bad eh?
Exactly! Granted my '89 MPV 4-banger has a single-row chain, but beefier than this junker for sure. Minimal chain stretch in 242k miles and original tensioner is doing fine. I think timing belt and non-interference design is the best combination ;)
Did you have to loosen the driver side motor mounts to jack the motor up?
This all would have been prevented if the owner had stuck to the maintenance interval regarding timing chain
now make sure they change the oil more than frequently! Those motors are super hard on oil.
Where you located, i have a 2014 terrain same engine, might need some work like that, but only have 65k on it with a P0011 code I already had those position sensors replaced already hasn't been a whole year, & engine light on again.
Nice repair!
So with the extra 100 degrees what's the inch pound go up to after that? After that looks to be just a flat 30 to 35 inch pounds total.
how did the cam timing get 3 teeth off was the whole assembly that worn so much that it was able to jump teeth? great video series thanks for taking the time to show us
What is the name of the device that checks this car?
Did you check to see if the pistons had contacted the valves? That happened to my Vauxhall Corsa (UK) when the timing chain jumped and totaled the engine
Ouch, sorry to hear that. In this case since the intake valve timing was late and engine still ran, there was no engine damage. Owner got lucky, once again.
Good stuff Ivan
With the oil level so critical on these vvt engines, why is there no warning light. Or engine shut down, until oil level is replenished.
Because when gm made that seonor they sprayed over it and it senses that it's full
You can set the Snap-on Tech Angle torque wrench for torque plus angle and as soon as you get done with the torque you can go right into the angle. You can also set it for the # of bolts you have and it records every bolt...lots of menu features TSB PIP5203C for the P0089 & P228D concerns PN issues with intake camshafts, intake camshaft actuators being different 2010 and 2011& up so the waveform was off & you proved it...your ears and pressure transducer told the real story b/c no way was that retarded only @20 degrees. Getting it back in time fixed the P0089 & P228D also. Awesome repair time and now you have a good waveform to share to the Pico library...it'll save some other Pico user a lot of time & hair pulling...maybe me Pico buffer is great for long screen captures and any other scope would be aliasing. As usual great interesting case study, diagnosis & repair and as soon as you posted it my Sunday was complete :D Thanks Ivan
I have to say, you write some of the most informative comments on my channel, and I don't even know your first name! Mr. Hayward? Anyways, I might have to come up with a "commenter of the year" award :)
HAHA It's Bob. I'm originally from Johnstown, NY and whenever I'm driving up there to visit my family I plan on stopping by to see you, Eric, and Keith just to shake your hand. :D
Was just in your old hometown today.. I'm SW of there, toward the hall of fame. Used to spend many Saturdays in Fonda.
Blazer02LS Raced at Fonda Speedway DIRT Modified & deer hunted in Cherry Valley
If you line all the marks up and rotate the crank (engine) 720 degrees should the marks be backed aligned.
same engine almost same issue, but we kissed the valves. how did you now this one didnt? Didnt get the 0016 code till after we repaired it :/
I wish service data put out how long the chain is new and how long it can stretch to so it makes it easier to measure instead of guessing or buying a new one to compare but by the time you compare it, it makes it harder to return a open package.
Easy... When it sets the timing code, it's stretched 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics lol well there’s that too lol
Major win for your pressure transducer.
Nice case study. Great use of Pico and AES adapters. How much did you charge for troubleshooting? I find that customers STILL think that they should only pay for the repair, and maybe one hour for diagnosis.
I wonder how long this owner was driving with the camshaft codes. They were really flirting with disaster. Btw, pull that PCV clean air tube and see if it's full of coffee. Haha
Yeah people will just let it go till she blows haha
Pine Hollow for the win!
Always satisfying to show the diag and repair with verification :)
What was the part number for that cam phaser?
scotty kilmer: "should have just gotten a toyota"
annoying dude but hes got a point.
He would've fixed it in 3 minutes. LOL
chungaleta1234 His die hard fans own the parts cannon copywrite. "Hey scotty my cavalier is stumbling. I've replaced the plugs wires coils fuel pump MAF IAC all filters and knock sensor. What could it be?". "Its probably the transmission. Those automatic transmissions are the worst. Just get a toyota"
Lol!!!! And in spite of that and everything else, I watch his show. the guy is funny and created a diff style of making vids. I've always wondered if he was the first mechanic who got fame by posting repair vids on youtube.
I used to be a GM guy. Now I only recommend HONDA to friends and family, or as Eric O. says, Hondoo! And if it has a timing belt, I won't buy it!
Спасибо за Ваши видео.
going with the low oil and mileage, I'd have called engine swap.
12 on up 2.4 have updated chain and in proved lubrication.
and it didn't help
that things flat the ones I've driven are not that sluggish,then 180k that's why.
i just did this about 4 months ago for my girl and she let the oil get low and now she got the p0016 and 17 codes and i just took it apart and i do not see anything out of time. the crank is at 12 o clock and the cams are 10 and 2 o clock so i;m not sure what to do. i changed the crank sensor the other day and the code returned, do you have any ideas? i wonder if the chain wore in that drive enough to cause both cams to go out of adjustment? i do not have a good chain to compare only the old one. thanks.
Hey, same shit. I replaced the timing chain and i used the improved tensioner bolt, i also replaced phasers and actuators. It sounds great but now i have p0016, p0014 and sometimes p0011. So, i was thinking of replacing the sensor like you. Did you solve it?
Other than the codes what were the symptoms of the vehicle
would be nice if you had a sprocket gear tool. it would be so much moor correct and moor easy
Great video, but wear your seatbelt hehe
You never added the transducer test and or compression check. Just the pico timing information.
are those a hydraulic/spring loaded tensioner? I would imaging that lack of oil and changes probably buggered up the actuator and tensioner on that car.....nice repair BTW! Thanks for sharing, look forward to more!
I think it's a hybrid hydraulic/spring tensioner with a weird ratcheting mechanism...that in this case caused all the commotion!
Ivan, we like your videos: wear your SEATBELT!