this is an amazingly done video, very well thought out and tested. it was very insightful and I'm surprised this doesn't have hundreds of thousands of views
Nice video and with a thorough, systematic test design. One thing I'd like to clarify when you were changing springs. You talked about changing spring "tension" with the different springs, but the tension, or amount of force, the springs produce has to be the same regardless of what springs you use given the same strings because all the springs do is balance the force created by the strings. The difference between the heavier and lighter springs isn't the force they're producing in the balance state, but how the spring force changes as the bar is pushed down (or pulled up). This is called the spring constant, denoted as k in equations. Spring force changes linearly with the change in spring length. The higher the spring constant, the more the force changes with the same change in length. Also, because there are multiple springs, the spring constant of the spring system is sum of the spring constants of springs. The strings also have a spring constant, and that spring constant is another part of the total system. Also that string spring constant changes as some strings go slack as you push down the arm, but for your test that doesn't matter because by the time the arm is pushed down to the body, the strings are mostly slack and not generating any force. Anyway, given the above your results make sense. The heavier springs will make it harder to push the bar down because the force they exert will increase faster (higher k) than the lighter springs. Two springs will have a lower spring constant than three springs, and two heavy springs will almost surely have a spring constant that's lower than three lighter springs, so that result jibes too.
Thank you so much for this excellent info and analysis. I realised when I was editing the video that I probably hadn't used the best terminology, (I used 'pressure' rather than 'force' etc). But I was confident in my results and hoped that I presented the information clearly enough to answer the question. If I do a video like this again, I'll try to use the correct terminology and get my head around the science a bit more!
Do you mean the bridge plate is angled up (i.e. not level with the body), or you angle the springs? I have been wondering about what difference angling the springs actually makes, but I haven’t tested it myself.
Dude you're a legend. Some times you think of something, wonder if someone else has done it, and then see what's up. I can 100% say that you satisfied my needs for knowledge on this subject. Great job. EDIT: I also wanna add that this got me more interested in adding a ESP arming adjuster to my guitar, as it does the same thing to stability as adding heavier strings.
Great! I wanted to know the answers so badly - I figured I wasn't the only one! I looked up the arming adjuster but can't quite get my head around what it does exactly? Watched a couple of videos but they didn't explain much. Seems to serve a similar purpose to the Tremel-No? Let me know how you get on with it!
@@cliffsmithguitarlessons The ESP arming adjuster has an adjustable spring piston that pushes in the opposite direction of the other strings in the cavity. This means that your total force from the string direction grows higher. To counteract this, you need to add tension to the regular springs. The result is that there is more opposing force on the tremolo, which means that the entire system is stabilized. In short, it makes a floating trem more hard-tail like. I JUST installed it on an old PRS CE-22 that was having issues with muddiness in the low-end, and adding the arming adjuster gave it a bit more definition and changed the voice of the guitar a little bit. Conversely, any bending and whammy action is also now harder, but I don't use the whammy so this is OK. One downside is that the spring piston from the adjuster doesn't follow the trem block entirely when you push down the pitch with the whammy. There is a subtle "click" when the spring block touches the adjuster. Doesn't matter to me. Does that make sense?
@@lordgraga I kind of get it. How is this different than just adding more springs? Does it have the same effect, just with more adjustment? Or does the fact that it's a solid bolt of metal rather than thin spring wires give you that tone improvement in addition to the stiffer trem action?
@@cliffsmithguitarlessons It feels like it can make a drastically bigger difference for stiffness than a single spring can. So you can get a tighter trem. I think most tonal change simply comes from the fact that the bridge is more rigid. There may also be some change from having a new semi-rigid resting point for the trem.
This video is absolutely amazing. If you have time, could you make a followup where you test if angling the springs vs. keeping them parallel makes a difference on the force needed to depress the bar? I've scoured the internet but can't find a solid answer.
Thanks for your comment and question! If I have the time, I will make that video! My guess would be that angling the springs loads the springs with a bit more tension, which may be the equivalent (or maybe somewhere in between) of going from, say, a light spring to a medium spring. So two angled springs would make the whammy bar stiffer than two straight springs, but not as stiff as three straight springs. But that is just my hypothesis of course - it needs to be tested! I too have wondered about the answer to this question and couldn't find the answer online!
Lighter strings makes it easier to move the whammy bar. Fewer springs makes it easier to move the whammy bar. Lighter springs makes it easier to move the whammy bar. So in answer to your question, if by 'most responsive' you mean easier to move, light strings and fewer springs will make your Floyd the most responsive. Let me know how you get on!
Thanks Vorstreus. What is the difference in the string bend feel when you change the number of springs? I can't quite get my head around it. I would think that adding more springs makes the string feel a bit harder to bend, as the springs are trying to counteract the increased tension created by the string bend. Or do I have that wrong?
Wouldn't the over all tension of the sets play a big part? as in at the same tuning, this case being E standard, the regular slinkys have 20 more pounds of tension than the super, and going up again to power slinkys they have 15 more pounds of tension than the regular. I feel as if tha'ts why changing the strings played a way bigger part in the stiffness of the bar
@@cliffsmithguitarlessons drop A 26.5" scale, and another 26.5" guitar in drop G with 11s, but in my case I think it is the heavy gauge AEA strings under too much tension to allow my Floyd Rose to flutter.
There are a lot of variables there, I’d set up the guitar so it plays how you want it then experiment with the springs. You may find you need an extra spring on the bass side (or one fewer on the treble side) if there is a lot more tension on one side than the other. I don’t have a 7 string so I’m just guessing!
I could use some advice. I'm a new player and my first guitar is an FR. My main gripe is that the whammy moves gets the initial movement too easily. I try hold the whammy while playing and the tone changes, meanwhile my brother has the exact same guitar model but with a Wilkinson 50IIK and it's very easy to hold the whammy while playing and it doesn't just change the tone so easily. Is there something I can do about it or pretty much all FR are built like this?
A FR equipped guitar would be the last thing I'd recommend for a beginner - it's too complicated in my opinion. Most beginners would be better off with a hardtail. You don't need to hold the whammy while playing all the time, just grab it when you need it. Do you mean that there is play in the bar (i.e. it moves a bit without changing the sound) or it changes the sound as soon as you touch it? If it's the former, that is a problem on many FR guitars (mine included) - you have to keep tightening the thread by hand. Some people put plumbers tape or something in the thread to make it lock better. I did this and it worked well for a while but has worn off now. You can also look at a replacement arm which requires an allen key or spanner to attach - they are more hassle to put on and off but more secure. Installing the new arm will require removing all the strings and bridge (if you can even find an arm that is compatible). If it's the latter (the pitch changes as soon as you grab the bar) then that is user error - you need to be more careful. If you make the bar stiffer this would be less of a problem as more force would be required to change pitch with the bar. Follow my recommendations in the video to make the bar stiffer. Also are you resting your picking hand on the bridge? If so you may be resting too hard and moving the bridge which will affect the pitch. I hope this helps!
In a 10-52 set, the EAD strings are from a set of 12s and the GBE strings from a set of 10s. I'd set it up for a set of 12s, then you can experiment with adjusting the spring tension screws. You could also try mixing spring tensions, i..e have a lighter spring on the high E string side. But I haven't tested it so that's just my best guess. I do have a Strat with 10-52 strings on it, but I keep the bridge flush to the body with 5x heavy springs. That's just the way I like it on that guitar - I can hit chords really hard, do unison/harmony bends, drop D etc, and it stays in tune well. You just have to experiment and set it up the way you like it. Be prepared to get it wrong and change the screw settings/spring configuration multiple times until you're happy with the result. Let me know how you get on!
Thx a lot for those test 🙏 in scientist way Long time I was wondering why my shaller floyd was so hard to move , impproved it by using 2x springs , and still wondering the effect of differents springs tension . ( hi from Paris 🫡 )
man, i could not follow any of of the journey... my brain cant handle math. Cheers for the merciful bottom-line afterwards.
Haha I did go pretty deep into the data! I'm glad you stuck with it long enough to hear my conclusions!
Thank you so much for doing this. I've been wondering about this for years.
I’m glad it was helpful!
this is an amazingly done video, very well thought out and tested. it was very insightful and I'm surprised this doesn't have hundreds of thousands of views
Cheers, I'm glad you liked it! Feel free to share. It was a lot of work but I'm glad I found some answers!
Nice video and with a thorough, systematic test design.
One thing I'd like to clarify when you were changing springs. You talked about changing spring "tension" with the different springs, but the tension, or amount of force, the springs produce has to be the same regardless of what springs you use given the same strings because all the springs do is balance the force created by the strings. The difference between the heavier and lighter springs isn't the force they're producing in the balance state, but how the spring force changes as the bar is pushed down (or pulled up). This is called the spring constant, denoted as k in equations. Spring force changes linearly with the change in spring length. The higher the spring constant, the more the force changes with the same change in length. Also, because there are multiple springs, the spring constant of the spring system is sum of the spring constants of springs.
The strings also have a spring constant, and that spring constant is another part of the total system. Also that string spring constant changes as some strings go slack as you push down the arm, but for your test that doesn't matter because by the time the arm is pushed down to the body, the strings are mostly slack and not generating any force.
Anyway, given the above your results make sense. The heavier springs will make it harder to push the bar down because the force they exert will increase faster (higher k) than the lighter springs. Two springs will have a lower spring constant than three springs, and two heavy springs will almost surely have a spring constant that's lower than three lighter springs, so that result jibes too.
Thank you so much for this excellent info and analysis. I realised when I was editing the video that I probably hadn't used the best terminology, (I used 'pressure' rather than 'force' etc). But I was confident in my results and hoped that I presented the information clearly enough to answer the question. If I do a video like this again, I'll try to use the correct terminology and get my head around the science a bit more!
I have the spring claw angled for a smooth flowing motion of tremolo
Do you mean the bridge plate is angled up (i.e. not level with the body), or you angle the springs? I have been wondering about what difference angling the springs actually makes, but I haven’t tested it myself.
Dude you're a legend. Some times you think of something, wonder if someone else has done it, and then see what's up. I can 100% say that you satisfied my needs for knowledge on this subject. Great job. EDIT: I also wanna add that this got me more interested in adding a ESP arming adjuster to my guitar, as it does the same thing to stability as adding heavier strings.
Great! I wanted to know the answers so badly - I figured I wasn't the only one! I looked up the arming adjuster but can't quite get my head around what it does exactly? Watched a couple of videos but they didn't explain much. Seems to serve a similar purpose to the Tremel-No? Let me know how you get on with it!
@@cliffsmithguitarlessons The ESP arming adjuster has an adjustable spring piston that pushes in the opposite direction of the other strings in the cavity. This means that your total force from the string direction grows higher. To counteract this, you need to add tension to the regular springs. The result is that there is more opposing force on the tremolo, which means that the entire system is stabilized.
In short, it makes a floating trem more hard-tail like. I JUST installed it on an old PRS CE-22 that was having issues with muddiness in the low-end, and adding the arming adjuster gave it a bit more definition and changed the voice of the guitar a little bit. Conversely, any bending and whammy action is also now harder, but I don't use the whammy so this is OK.
One downside is that the spring piston from the adjuster doesn't follow the trem block entirely when you push down the pitch with the whammy. There is a subtle "click" when the spring block touches the adjuster. Doesn't matter to me.
Does that make sense?
@@lordgraga I kind of get it. How is this different than just adding more springs? Does it have the same effect, just with more adjustment? Or does the fact that it's a solid bolt of metal rather than thin spring wires give you that tone improvement in addition to the stiffer trem action?
@@cliffsmithguitarlessons It feels like it can make a drastically bigger difference for stiffness than a single spring can. So you can get a tighter trem. I think most tonal change simply comes from the fact that the bridge is more rigid. There may also be some change from having a new semi-rigid resting point for the trem.
@@lordgraga Thanks, I'll have to try one one day!
I hope you liked the video! What is your spring/string gauge set up, and which tuning are you in?
Amazing video, absolutley great
Thank you! I was worried I'd gone too deep and people would find it boring! I'm sure some will 😁
That is a great idea! Exactly what i was looking for!
Thanks Rodolfo, I hope you get the whammy bar tension you are looking for!
This video is absolutely amazing. If you have time, could you make a followup where you test if angling the springs vs. keeping them parallel makes a difference on the force needed to depress the bar? I've scoured the internet but can't find a solid answer.
Thanks for your comment and question! If I have the time, I will make that video! My guess would be that angling the springs loads the springs with a bit more tension, which may be the equivalent (or maybe somewhere in between) of going from, say, a light spring to a medium spring. So two angled springs would make the whammy bar stiffer than two straight springs, but not as stiff as three straight springs. But that is just my hypothesis of course - it needs to be tested! I too have wondered about the answer to this question and couldn't find the answer online!
AMAZING work!!! 👏
Cheers Matt!
Thanks cuz
oh man that Koa LTD is pretty
Cheers it is an amazing guitar for the price - I was blown away by the quality when I first played it - and I still love it years later.
So is heavier strings and less springs, or light strings and less springs? What is the definitive answer to what makes the most responsive Floyd?
Lighter strings makes it easier to move the whammy bar. Fewer springs makes it easier to move the whammy bar. Lighter springs makes it easier to move the whammy bar. So in answer to your question, if by 'most responsive' you mean easier to move, light strings and fewer springs will make your Floyd the most responsive. Let me know how you get on!
Its all in the springs, sometimes i go for 4 springs on a floyd to make bends feel a little bit more like a fixed bridge
Thanks Vorstreus. What is the difference in the string bend feel when you change the number of springs? I can't quite get my head around it. I would think that adding more springs makes the string feel a bit harder to bend, as the springs are trying to counteract the increased tension created by the string bend. Or do I have that wrong?
@@cliffsmithguitarlessons Different springs vs tension and claw adjustment and strings. Physics.
@@keithclark486 thanks for your comment, but I’m not sure what you are trying to say?
Wouldn't the over all tension of the sets play a big part? as in at the same tuning, this case being E standard, the regular slinkys have 20 more pounds of tension than the super, and going up again to power slinkys they have 15 more pounds of tension than the regular. I feel as if tha'ts why changing the strings played a way bigger part in the stiffness of the bar
Yes.
This is fantastic
Thank you!
Imagine my bar force with 7 strings, 4 stock springs, and 10s. I need to lighten it up. I will also try 9s and 3 purples
Standard tuning with low B? Let me know what happens!
@@cliffsmithguitarlessons drop A 26.5" scale, and another 26.5" guitar in drop G with 11s, but in my case I think it is the heavy gauge AEA strings under too much tension to allow my Floyd Rose to flutter.
There are a lot of variables there, I’d set up the guitar so it plays how you want it then experiment with the springs. You may find you need an extra spring on the bass side (or one fewer on the treble side) if there is a lot more tension on one side than the other. I don’t have a 7 string so I’m just guessing!
I could use some advice. I'm a new player and my first guitar is an FR. My main gripe is that the whammy moves gets the initial movement too easily. I try hold the whammy while playing and the tone changes, meanwhile my brother has the exact same guitar model but with a Wilkinson 50IIK and it's very easy to hold the whammy while playing and it doesn't just change the tone so easily.
Is there something I can do about it or pretty much all FR are built like this?
A FR equipped guitar would be the last thing I'd recommend for a beginner - it's too complicated in my opinion. Most beginners would be better off with a hardtail. You don't need to hold the whammy while playing all the time, just grab it when you need it. Do you mean that there is play in the bar (i.e. it moves a bit without changing the sound) or it changes the sound as soon as you touch it? If it's the former, that is a problem on many FR guitars (mine included) - you have to keep tightening the thread by hand. Some people put plumbers tape or something in the thread to make it lock better. I did this and it worked well for a while but has worn off now. You can also look at a replacement arm which requires an allen key or spanner to attach - they are more hassle to put on and off but more secure. Installing the new arm will require removing all the strings and bridge (if you can even find an arm that is compatible). If it's the latter (the pitch changes as soon as you grab the bar) then that is user error - you need to be more careful. If you make the bar stiffer this would be less of a problem as more force would be required to change pitch with the bar. Follow my recommendations in the video to make the bar stiffer. Also are you resting your picking hand on the bridge? If so you may be resting too hard and moving the bridge which will affect the pitch. I hope this helps!
What about 10-52 strings?
In a 10-52 set, the EAD strings are from a set of 12s and the GBE strings from a set of 10s. I'd set it up for a set of 12s, then you can experiment with adjusting the spring tension screws. You could also try mixing spring tensions, i..e have a lighter spring on the high E string side. But I haven't tested it so that's just my best guess. I do have a Strat with 10-52 strings on it, but I keep the bridge flush to the body with 5x heavy springs. That's just the way I like it on that guitar - I can hit chords really hard, do unison/harmony bends, drop D etc, and it stays in tune well. You just have to experiment and set it up the way you like it. Be prepared to get it wrong and change the screw settings/spring configuration multiple times until you're happy with the result. Let me know how you get on!
Thx a lot for those test 🙏 in scientist way
Long time I was wondering why my shaller floyd was so hard to move , impproved it by using 2x springs , and still wondering the effect of differents springs tension .
( hi from Paris 🫡 )
I'm glad you found it useful - I just had to know the answer after years of guessing!