Episode 21 Lubricant Choice Guide
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ย. 2022
- In this Episode Adam guides you through the best lubricant choice for your bike chain. As Zero friction cycling continues to conduct more testing we are discovering new products coming onto the market. Our testing is exhaustive so it does take time to move across the whole market. We continue to lead independent testing and hope that you gain the benefits of our research from wathcing this episode.
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Adam, just a quick shout out for the service/info you provide (I even enjoy the rambling-style of your reviews with tangents of frustration/adding nuance where necessary). Keep up the brilliant work mate, very much appreciated.
awww thanks so much ll88 you have made my day! I hoped that somewhere out there in the big wide world someone would find my rambling ok hahahaha!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Rambling can often include amplification of a topic or aspect of it or rephrasing . A danger of rambling is repetition or risking being criticised by others .
@@robertmcfadyen9156 Such as opening my inbox to find such by yourself on multiple videos? Robert - i got it, i suck, your amazing. Cool. Got it. thanks!
What an absolute gem this video is. Well-presented facts with no BS; really appreciate all the hard work and dedication.
Thank you for all the hard work. Can't wait to see the Matrix once it is done.
What a wealth of information. Big thanks
Just the clean part is great, changing a tire on the road is so much easier. And it looks great and works great thanks for letting me know how to wax.
I love your obsession. All my favorite people to listen to are fanatics in their field of expertise.
Ha thanks Al! And yeah good combination of a strange nerdy cyclist + an area in cycling that really needed proper attention! I dont seem to be running out of work anytime soon.....
Great video and advice Adam, you really are the industry benchmark for drive chain lubrication, backed up by detailed data points and real world testing scenarios. No unscientific vendor biased opinions, just independent straight facts backed up with empirical evidence. I knew no better, and ashamed to say I have always used Muc Off wet/dry lubes, and wipe down my chain every post ride with turps on microfibre cloth, not realising damage already done with contaminant penetration, looks like my religious maintenance regime was just surface focused :-(. This video, and your site, has helped me work out my strategy going forward, immersive hot wax, with drip on top up wax, to prolong dry weather chain resetting. 2nd chain prepped and ready for any post ride, when I get caught out on my winter work commute in rain. No more black oil marks on inside of my calf for me again! Thanks again awesome advice, and your testing reports are a data junkies paradise.
Thanks so much for the lovely feedback and i am always very heartened when one finds the content helpful! And on the bright side..... the good part about your M-O journey is that you will notice oh so much better how awesome the new path is!! Wait till you see how much longer things last as well as not fighting the black mess! :)
Nice one mate ! You have reinforced my beliefs !
I agree with Greg. I love how clean my drive train and bike stays clean. Now I am on a routine waxing it is even less time consuming. I started using a bike stand and that help chain removal and install even easy. Off bike is so much cleaner and easier than drip. I only keep drip around for an emergency. I have been using Silica SS immersive and drip. I am very happy with it
Great information. If it takes 50 minutes to provide something approaching an all-encompassing discussion of chain lube options, you know it's a complicated subject. As with all such subjects, the "experts" use similar data to reach wildly divergent conclusions, mostly based on what entity is paying their bills. But here we have what seems to to be an exception to that axiom. Adam knows his subject, lives and breathes it, and doesn't push any solution as the always best and only right solution. For me, and I suspect for most riders, the thoroughness and frequency of chain _cleaning_ has far more effect on chain life (my focus, rather than on chain speed) than does what _lubricant_ we use. A clean chain likes just about any lubricant; a dirty chain hates them all.
And it's still not all encompassing, many tests and recommendations are invalid in humid climates (he may be Australian).
Wax for example can be totally useless if you encounter rains and puddles on a regular basis, also in many regions freezing temperatures are not uncommon a good part of the year and some lubricants don't work well in cold temps, etc.
Great information Thankyou
Great info as always! I would have believed Squirt will end up in your table. :-)
Squirt was a top choice 10 years ago, but the latest gen lubricants..... it really is not matching those at all, and lubricants with significant penetrations issues are hard to recommend because they are just a lot more faff post initial prep or maintenance clean to avoid high wear. If one only rides in dry conditions then it is still a solid choice. If one rides in the wet and so needs to reset contamination post ride, wax lubes with significant penetration issues are hard work. It is much easier to run with an option that you can easily apply post clean with no penetration worries / high wear.
As always really interesting and informative. Great info. Along with most other purchases in the UK going up in price, Silca SS is now £49 / 8oz whereas less than a year ago it was £38 / 8oz.
Yep, a lot of things are going up, a lot. Big increase to msw as well recently. Cost of raw ingredients to everyone has continued to head north. Cost of transporting raw ingredients has continued to really shoot north (the shipping bill is like being punched every time i get a case of msw shipped over! - same for them for ingredients to make it), and also more and more mfg - including mspeedwax and silca - have for awhile needed to get ingredients tested by 3rd party to ensure that a key ingredient is actually the key ingredient. Even though they only source from Tier 1 suppliers, too many mfg have suffered instances of a key ingredient not in fact being what it was supposed to be, ruining that batch of lubricant, which may already be out on market - and that is a PALAVA to sort out - getting back from stores, back from importers, sorting out any use issues from product not performing as it should have etc etc - whilst expensive, it is better to avoid that happening and simply have everything tested independently before it is allowed to go to into production. But the cost of doing this - as with everything - it just adds to final cost. There is a minimum viable margin, so after net cost to produce is calculated, a final price has to be set after that, and the net costs for so many things is just getting rough.
On the plus side - even at high cost per bottle, if a lubricant is genuinely very wear protective it will still pay for itself many times over in total cost to run per 10,000km vs cheaper lubricants with higher wear rates. The lubricant cost is the very small part of the cost to run, component wear is by far the dominant cost per 10,000km. It can be less tangible as too many are very poor at tracking their wear rate vs km's - so they often dont have that concrete confirmation right in front of them for X lubricant vs Y lubricant in their riding, whereas the sticker price on a bottle is very upfront and easy for them. But in so many cases the cheaper product will cost the cyclist a lot more overall. I would definitely refer to the cost to run modelling on the zfc website.
I get around the problem of price increases and profiteering by only using the cheapest possible components on my cheapo bike, and by taking a bit of care over maintenance (my labour's free).The bike cost £130, new, 22 years ago. I use cheap chains (£4), chainrings and rear cassettes (£7). I run parts until they wear out.
The original chainring was steel and lasted 22 years and over 50,000 miles. It's worn, and I'm just about to replace it, now, with a hardened alloy one (£15). I very much doubt that it'll last twenty years. Bring back steel stuff, I say.
It makes no sense for someone in my lowly position to buy expensive, premium-quality maintenance gear in order to prolong the service life of a £5 component. A £50 pot of super-lubricant represents my total cycling budget for half a decade!
Incidentally, I use ordinary car engine oil (new, 10W-40) on my chains and they last for at least 15,000 miles of road cycling in the soggy north of England. I clean them once a week with a rag and white spirit, and maybe once a month with a rotating-brush chain-scrubbing tool, also using white spirit.
I can understand why someone whose bike cost a fortune and which is fitted with top-quality, very expensive components would insist on demanding superior products to keep it running smoothly, but a person like that won't be counting the pennies like me.
The advantage of having low expectations is that everything - EVERYTHING - becomes a bonus.🤭
Love all your content and can't recommend your info enough. However, have you done any research/testing on chain stretch based on power? Clean environment and just testing really high sprint intervals 1000+ W or a high 600+ W steady power vs the std steady test which you already have data for.
Once a gain, great information Adam. Ever since I tried hot melt wax, I can't imagine doing anything else. It's fast, simple, completely clean, and makes the chain silent. I don't like the idea of bringing in contaminants into the wax pot so I will always do a hot water bath before a re-wax, but that's just a personal preference. For people who think it's too much trouble, something to consider is that I NEVER have to clean the rest of my drivetrain. The cassette and chainring are always clean. If I do a wet or muddy ride, it's just a simple rinse with water. Zero scrubbing. That saves a ton of time. The only bike I don't use hot melt wax on is my road bike that lives on the smart trainer. That gets Silca Synergetic and that lasts forever indoors. Thanks as always.
Thanks Catmando! very much appreciate you taking the time to provide great input. And yes boiling water rinse every time is good for offroad IF one ensures properly dry chain before re wax - some that do it all the time start to short cut that and it can affect the re wax. Overall though i do recommend that it is really best for post wet only, and that if you want to do best and easiest for offroad chains then check out the two pot system like a boss - episode 7 waxing FAQ guide - 1hr 39min mark. Two pot system for offroad really is the best and easiest system to reset any dust contamination every time vs boiling water. Boiling water is good for a bulk contamination clean, it isnt a perfect melt off and clean reset, so when there is a lot of contamination such as post wet ride, it is great to remove the bulk, but it doesnt remove all. Typically dust contamination post dry offroad riding is pretty low for the top waxes, and so boiling water may help a little, but it is not a perfect flush clean, and you have the faff of boiling water rinses and drying chain. Two pot system will do a better reset and it is A LOT easier over time.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you Adam. That’s actually really good to know. I don’t blow dry the chain before re waxing so it sounds like it hasn’t been as good as it should have been all this time. Bummer. I didn’t realize that the hot water rinse really is only for wet/muddy rides so I’ll start saving it just for those. I’ll also get another crockpot and start doing the two pot solution, like you recommend, like a boss. :-) Thanks for the feedback as always.
@@CatManDoSocial ah most excellent, and yes sorry there is a bit of info out there all up and its a bit tricky to ensure the right info for the right thing but im trying to clarify better now. Enjoy two pot system it really is brilliant for offroad!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I am now waxing like a boss with the two pot system. Thanks for all the great advice!
Great info as always. Any opinion on using (or avoiding) high pressure compressed air to clean out a chain (with or without a degreaser/soap of some sort)?
Ha love the name! If the chain is cleaned so one isnt going to blast contamination in, compressed air is fine. I just prefer hair dryer or heat gun because it is hard for cold air to dry deep inside the chain (ie from pin / inner plate link bore). Hair dryer (especially off bike, on bike things are harder as cassette / rings are heat sinks taking heat away from chain) - the chain will quickly heat up to hotter than you can touch, and this evaps outs water / solvent really effectively, so one isnt applying lubricant or waxing over the top of things being still wet inside which can impact bond to chain metal deep inside on high load surface where it is best to just not have liquid left that you dont want that may hinder bond.
In short i could remove the chain, completely dry it with a hair dryer, and re install the chain before someone using a compressor could achieve a full dry deep inside the chain. If the chain is off anyway because one is doing a proper job, then hair dryer or heat gun is just way faster and way more certain.
Ive been using pro gold prolink chain lube for awhile now and have been pretty happy but its running out so looking into a replacement. Thank you for all your testing
ah you will be in for a welcome surprise! Pro link gold tested very poorly in the friction facts days - it was 50th out of 55 lubricants tested - which is really bad. The entire premise of conditioning the chain metal for lower friction over time is massively flawed. So if you have been happy with that product, a genuine top product is going to be happy days indeed!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 aww man!! It's probably because I'm a very easy rider. I take my bike out 1-2x a week for 1.5hr max and lube my chain every ride. I'm just ordered the silica synergetic, thank you again for everything you do
I have the Silca Secret road race lubricant composition decrypted thanks to a pathologist I know . They have the exact formulation and it's characteristics worked out .
Started using speedwax 5 years ago and I will tell you once you get use to the process its very easy. I wax 4 or 5 chains at once and then rotate them until I am down to 1 and repeat the process. Most ask how do you know when the chain needs to be changed. I simply listen to the chain. When I start to hear more noise I replace and it works great. I have been using the same 5 chains for the last 5 years and measure them to see if they have stretched.
yall are amazing
Really appreciate the time and effort you put into the testing, videos etc. Adam!
I do have a question about chains and the hot waxing as I have a few KMC chains (10 speed Tiagra group set) and 1 Shimano. They require far more frequent waxing to stay quiet, especially the KMC brand. Looking for recommendations for a chain brand where I'm not waxing every 100km or less. Not much water/wet riding but life happens, some dry street riding, paved trails and some crushed limestone/dirt on the trails are the primary areas where I can ride.
Much appreciate all you do here for us and the others!
Hey Mike! Yes kmc always come up like this re pain for waxing - ybn sla 10spd - the ybn sla chains are great as fast, long life and their coatings get along very well with waxes.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks Adam. Trouble finding them in Canada. What is an OEM chain from YBA without the packaging, is that a scam? Tried to email them for anyone local selling their chains, no reply in several days now.
@@miker8769 I don't know if ybn are oem for any bike brands, just an aftermarket upgrade. Best place for you will be mspeedwax in Minnesota!
Always appreciate your thoughts and efforts.
Would be happy to donate to a fund; you’ve earned my interest and business, for sure!
Thanks William!! At this stage i havent thought about patreon or similar - the ZFC business model is to use testing to find, recommend and stock the genuine best products found - so the retail side of ZFC covers the testing side (it is near impossible to make money from testing as it is too time resource intensive - well the zfc test is, could never charge enough to make it viable as it would be beyond mfg's budget for testing - so the testing depends on the retail side of ZFC selling the best known products for a viable business model). This is working really well with strong and always growing sales, and just a really happy and really loyal repeat customer base, that is also always growing steadily as more and more know of ZFC.
For int'l it is tricky as shipping costs out of Aus are pretty horrendous (ginormous continent with relatively tiny outbound commerce so our rates are shizen) - it starts to make sense on multiple prepped chains as we have competitive pricing there as i am able to recycle back solvents saving a lot of cost - but otherwise it is best to try buy local if international. Great support for ZFC can still be done without buying stuff - literally just positively engaging on you tube and podcasts featuring ZFC (check media room on website), as well as comments on media articles on this topic - that all really helps as it keeps raising awareness, and ZFC gets invited to more media articles / interviews and able to get better information out to more cyclists etc. All of that side is going really well thanks to the support of peeps like yourself!
I tried Rex Black Diamond for some touring this Winter. While using it I was never blown away by it's longevity. It didn't seem to handle dusty conditions well or the heat of Southeast Asia. I did find it to be pretty clean as while traveling I only really wipe the chain down once a week or so and that was easy.
However after 6,000 dirty loaded poor maintenance kilometers the chain still.passed the first chain check test. I was shocked and possibly sold on this lube. That's never come close happening.
I may try the Silca sunergetic as it's more accessible in shops
Great stuff as always Adam!
I'm really interested in trying the Effetto Mariposa's wax. When you say it's long lasting, how long in-between applications are we talking about? I'm asking since the single application longevity results haven't been released yet.
Also, I've had the chance to talk about the Rex's prototype wax you're testing with their CEO on the Weightweenies forum, according to them it's bound to be close to revolutionary as far as longevity goes. Do you have any potential updates or info you can share with us so far?
Thanks a lot for your work Adam!
Hi thomas! For the first question it is still actually quite hard to put km figures to things for ones cycling - there are a bunch of variables, some stem from trying to relate the test kms over to real world, and some come from other tricky issues with the single application longevity testing. I will try not to go to long here.
Firstly though real world kms for people vary A LOT due to that person power (even power profile, lots of high power intervals for same avg power = shorter lifespan vs pretty stead at same avg power), as is the level and type of contamination exposure.
Re the single application longevity testing - for drip lubricants an issue has really made itself apparent re test kms vs real world. For the S.A.L test, the lubricants are applied immersively. this is done because this test is to assess lubricants longevity performance assuming perfect prep. This method also helps provide data re possible penetration issue concerns from block 1 of the main test as lubricant is applied as per mfg instructions in main test. So in essence we get best possible longevity result for the lubricant as it is applied via immersive.
However - a tricky issue for drip lubricants, is that assuming in real life one is NOT applying via immersive, which will be very uncommon for drip lubricants - the amount of drip lubricant one can effectively apply to a chain varies. Ie. Silca SS drip and UFO drip - UFO drip you can get a good 8ml application on chain. SS drip try and get more than about 3ml on for an application and it just all slides off chain onto the floor. I havent control S.A.L tested SS drip but i know from real world testing that it is shorter lifespan by feel vs UFO - even though overall in main test they were both very high performing and had no trouble with the interval lengths of main test - but i do know that when i get to the S.A.L test for SS Drip, its immersive longevity result will be a good % better than what one could attain via normal application in real life - other drip lubricants will be less affected depending on that lubricants behaviour on applicaton.
Having said all that - from test observations and control test data (effetto will be up soon for S.A.L), it is around double the treatment lifespan of UFO / Ss drip. It is very smooth for a good stretch. It is blacker so not as clean and this type of wax rides kind of like an oily wax which will suit some that like a more damped feel, but it doesnt attract abrasive contamination - however others who prefer very clean chain / drivetrain with minimal effort will still prefer to apply the very refined paraffin base lubes like ufo / ss drip more regularly - so trading treatment lifespan for a cleaner chain.
With the Rex Wax, that has been a lot of fun testing so far, and the race blend in dry conditions, it is massively ahead of its competitor waxes in say dry road. HOWEVER - again there are tricky differences between control test and real world. Rex wax shows an amazing ability to just be run and run and run without chain wearing - the magic stuff they put in the wax and the wax base itself, it is just amazing at protecting the chain metal from wear.
This doesnt mean though that the wax treatment still wont feel quite dry when riding past a certain point, a point that will come way before the protection is giving out. So whilst it will definitely be clearly longer lasting, i dont think that huge gap will make itself known as starkly in ones actual ride experience, as past a certain kms when wax treatments become quite thin - even though they may still be providing wear protection - they just can feel and sound really dry and not that pleasurable to ride, and so it is best to still re wax when that is the case.
A great benefit for Rex wax though will be that if one does tend to keep pushing treatment lifespans (some do, they just dont notice the really dry feel and sound of chain with very thin solid wax layer left) that they will still be left with outstanding wear protection at a level greater than key competitors. I think this will be the bigger point vs cool i have just re waxed my chain now im off for a 1500km flag to flag ride.
I also really like how Rex will be going to market with different blends and ability to play with blend by selling base and modifier blocks. Some cyclists just want a super clean, super enviro friendly wax. They do not need or want fancy friction modifiers. So in other top waxes they are paying a premium for stuff they do not want anyway. So they can get training blend / more base blocks and the bare minimum needed friction modifiers. Others can go heavy on friction modifiers for maximum treatment lifespan and wear protection when pushed etc. I just think giving consumers more power to adjust based on their needs & wishes is a great approach vs one blend for all - does an intrepid commuter really need a high concentration of fancy modifiers or do they just want a super clean and super low wear chain for getting to work and back etc.
hope all that waffle waffle waffle made sense i apologies i am currently lacking sufficient caffeine and thus working neurons to type better at this time :)
I'd like top put ChainL No.5 on the list. I get nearly 500 miles between applications, sometimes more depending on the weather.
Thanks Rob yes Chain L has been requested a bit over time ( i get emails re lube test requests all the time) - i have it on my long list to try to test if i get a spot in between testing for mfg's which is very busy (where else can a mfg get robust independent test data for their product?) - best chance will be if CHain L book in.... but i will try to get too one day.
I’ve looked at your website to help me choose a lubricant, and it’s so complicated and wordy. It’s good to go through the research and analysis, however reading the conclusions on each lubricant and then trying to use these conclusions to judge other lubricants is too complicated I gave up.
If you could make a concise and simplified comparison charts that would be most helpful.
Thanks for the hard work
Hi Bikepacking! Yes concise can be something i struggle with, apologies for that - however also please try to understand the challenge. There is a huge variance in every persons riding (volume, length of rides, huge range of conditions, lubricant type preferences, maintenance preferences). It is a bit like oh ok you do this riding, then clearly the absolute best bike for you is X. There is a lot of nuance and personal preference that goes in to what bike one ends up buying.
A lubricant choice matrix is under development, but the matrix needs to be able to take into account all the above, as well as focus on environmental friendliness which is frequently a top consideration for cyclists - and provide top recommended options.
They key takeaways from all the testing is a) if you ride offroad, do not run a wet lubricant, b) if you ride a lot in the wet the best lubricant is the one that is easiest for you to reset contamination post wet ride - ie for you is removing to put in a pot of wax easier or solvent flush cleaning chain easier? and c) Overall dont overly stress - all the lubricants that have tested extremely well and are stocked and recommended by ZFC - you really cannot go very wrong. You will land somewhere on the scale of really happy to super mega happy.
But all the block by block data test data is also there in an easy table on lubricant test page. Ride on dry road - you can see the super low wear rates of the options in the top 10 - pick anyone of those based on preferences (wet lube? wax lube?). Ride offroad, pick one of the lowest wear wax lubricants. Dont be too stressed about having to nail the absolute definite perfect lubricant for you for ever and ever - you are not getting married to it - if it not exactly what you were looking for you can try another one next time.
Whilst there is a lot material there - remember this is what ZFC does. It would be remiss after 6 years and over 300,000km of testing we didnt have a lot of knowledge to put out for all cyclists to learn from. If stuck, the best way is again just to look at the block by block wear rates and see which block is most applicable for your riding, as well as the Key Learnings - that is obviously a summing up of the key knowledge from the testing. This is overall still a lot easier than say going to one products website and reading all the marketing about that lubricant, then going to another products website and reading all their marketing, and doing that for 5 or 10 lubricants and try to decide. If you read the key learning section applicable to your riding, and check the wear rate for your type of riding, you will have quickly and easily and with KNOWLEDGE, not marketing - greatly narrowed down to a few best options to try.
Hei Adam, great content. I am cycling nerd and i really appreciate work you do with all those lubricants and with testing them. I am wondering if you have considered to test two products: Bike 7 pro wax and Morgan blue dry wax. They are really popular in Europe. It would be very interesting to see how they compete in your test. Greetings
Thanks so much! i havent heard of bike 7 pro wax so will have a look, morgan blue i have more requests to test the race oil vs the dry wax, but have both on the long list. Just soo many lubes - but the more requests i get the more i can hone dow which ones next :)
Thoughts on Absolute Black GraphenWax?
I ride bmx. Our chains are like $15-20. But i still like a smooth drive train and not having greasy dirty pant legs.
Looked up rex BD and it was like $40 in the states for the wee bottle you have there. Think I'll stick to rock n roll for now. But good to know how expensive these top shelf lubes can get.
Hey! Thanks so much for all the amazing write ups online. Recently switched from my old choice, squirt lube, over to the Silca option. I mostly do MTB these days and the chain does indeed get dry. I typically wait for any sign of dry chain noise and I'll lube immediately after that ride. Not sure if that's a good enough regimen but I guess it works for me. I also usually don't do a chain removal unless I need to. My question is what's the best way to keep my chain clean without removing it? I saw on your guide there's a bunch of boiling water bath recommendations, but I assume it involves a chain removal. I'm trying to strike the best balance between keeping my chain maintained and also keeping it practical, I think I'd go nuts if I had to take off my chain every 3-4 rides. Cheers man!
Hey zadius yes overall that is good, however maximum chain and drivetrain lifespan is achieved by not pushing treatment lifespans. By the time you feel / hear it is getting dry, a very thing coating only is left. Unlike wet lubricants where over application can be a problem as attracts so much more contamination, it is hard to over apply a very clean refined wax lube like ss drip, so it is better to err on re lube earlier vs pushing - and then lifespans are really something. Over time, if you get say 6 hours in general of ride time before you notice it is feeling and sounding dry - try to pre empt that and re lube after 4 to 5 hrs etc.
Maintenance of SS drip on bike is pretty easy with the right products - you need a a product that works effectively on wax - the two best i know of are either UFO drivetrain clean or effetto mariposa alpine extra. Spray on, allow 10 mins soak, rinse off with hot / or even better, boiling water (just pour over chain), dry (try to dry thoroughly, hairdryer is best as heats chain so evaps water out from deep inside chain effectively). Applying drip lubricant over dried chain is more effective vs wet, but if you cant dry - just allow more set time for lubricant and re apply next treatment after first ride as the water inside chain will very likely shorten that first applications lifespan.
I have a new chain maintenance guide on website - instructions tab - covering maintenance for dry road, dry offroad, wet conditions etc, and based on lubricant type, and covering on or off bike for all of those combo's - check that out and follow the flow chart for your riding :)
Thanks man
The Flowerpower is a mix of plant based and paraffin wax. Airolube and Toniq have a drip wax that is 100% plant based wax.
I hate to hear that about the WT-1 from Wolf Tooth. I've been using SCC Slick chain lube since last fall. It's the same stuff. I do know that the instructions specifically say to apply, backpedal to distribute the lube, wait some time, then wipe off. Then wipe off after every ride. That way it's not too wet to attract grit. I know it is still going to attract some grit even if it is wiped per instructions but just wondering if you wiped it down after applying?
Hi the beans! Yes, initial lubrication and re lubrications are always done as per mfg instructions. Wt-1 is still a very wet lubricant, and as such - all contamination that comes into contact with the chain sticks and becomes part of the lubricant. Being wetter also enables and easier transport part for contamination to move from outside to inside, if it is dry or paste like top wax lubricants, there is no path to migrate in (most times it is then brought in on re lube if one is not careful).
It is just a completely flawed approach for lubricants to "clean as they lube" and have some detergent or similar.
For one - you are adding 3ml maybe to over 100 links of chain. That is 0.03ml per link. Of which how much is detergent? how much cleaning is that doing?
For two - it is supposedly cleaning whilst actively attracting a lot more contamination. It is like you filling in a trench whilst a team of ten people next to you are all digging trenches. It is a not even a zero sum game, it is a losing game - wet lubricants and offroad = you are creating a lapping compound vs lubricant remaining very clean and low friction. Take the seals of your bearings and ride around offroad and see how they feel. How do you think what is happening with chain and wet lubricant is any different (it is worse as it is much more exposed).
For three - Having supposed methods to deal with contamination vs taking the approach of not gathering contamination begin with is massively flawed. If you had the option of not being stabbed a thousand times with a pen knife, or being stabbed a thousand times but im going to give you a first aid kit - which option are you going to take.
Wet lubricants and offroad is just a complete miss match. A very wet lubricant marketed to offroad and that things will be great because it can clean as it lubricates... It is just marketing praying on the fact that most cyclists a) will not twig re how flawed this really is and b) that most especially mtb riders do not track at all parts wear to km's. Pretty much however fast a chain wears - well, that must be normal / good - man imagine if i wasnt using this wonder lube it would have been even worse!
If you have been happy with scc slick or wt-1, then trying an option that does not become a grinding paste is going to really make you happy. I understand emotional to a product that mentally you have bought into and supported, it is never easy to switch that around. Alas WT-1 is just very very clearly a poor product vs oh so many others in ZFC testing, and wet lubircants like that just so clearly not suited for offroad use - in the end it takes one some quite good cognitive disassociation to still believe it is a great way to go if one has thought about the knowledge above for chain lubrication offroad. If your life depended on your chain lasting X thousand kms in your riding offroad - is one really going to choose this path or top wax lubricants proven to have such high contamination resistance and extremely low wear rates. And if one would go the latter to ensure lower wear for chain, it is lower wear for everything else, and vastly lower wear = vastly lower cost.... in this case the comparisons are just not even close - with WT-1 so so many times higher wear rate than the top lubricants tested in dry contamination.
WAXING RULES sounds hard but is super easy Cheers for the TESTING
Thanks
Any update on the Dynamic lubes?
I would be interested in you testing a regular car engine oil. I know the chain would probably end up black after a ride or two but if it degreases easily then that's not much of a problem, I'm only concerned with efficiency and wear.
Hey Richard! Yes i would be curious keen too if the test didnt take so much valuable time and machine time resources - alas i really do have to be careful to a large degree what i test re the value it will bring re knowledge. We know that motor oil would be messy, and slow. It should easily degrease but then so do many other wet lubricants - many would likely degrease much easier ie silca synergetic and rex black diamond where you are only applying 1-2ml per application every circa 500 to 800km - it is about as easy a maintenance as possible for a wet lubricant - and they are the right viscosity and efficiency performance that motor oil would kinda struggle to match.
So it is something where we pretty much already know the answers. Its a bit like, that black super heavy grease they use on the coupling plates for semi trailers - should we test that in bearings.... It just is not its intended use case, and we know it is going to be slow - is there a need to test. In my case is there a need to take up a month of machine time + a lot of my time to test a product that really only the smallest fraction of a % of the cycling demographic would consider using, and those that do likely have no thoughts around performance, and are unlikely to be a large audience demo for ZFC!
If i run out of other testing for sure i can this one, but man - testing is busy, aside from testing for mfg's, i have a long list of higher value knowledge tests to do - sadly this one will be awhile to make it....
Is it a good idea to immersive wax the 12-speed SRAM hard chrome chains like X01 and XX1? I tried it once but felt like I had to rewax quite often. My conclusion was, maybe the wax does not stick that good because of the hard chrome surfaces. Can you confirm my findings or did I maybe just mess up the initial degreasing of the chain?
interesting - i would check prep as sram factory grease is really stubborn stuff and needs more work than other chains. But properly prepped, sram eagle chains actually have one of the best wax bonding - eagle chains typically stay silky smooth for (depending on rider and conditions) typically around 6 to 12hrs. Really only kmc and to a certain degree shimano 10 /11 spd have shown to have less than optimal wax bonding, ybn, sram all chains, campy all chains - excellent bonding and treatment lifespan if factory grease clean done properly (refer to chain prep guide in instructions tab).
Where in the USA can you get the Rex Black Diamond?
Hi,
I read another post where you recommend two pot for hot wax.
Can you describe how that work? Do you have wax on the two pot?
Thanks!
Hey the flyer for sure - For just dry road cyclists, single pot is all you need as there is so little contamination getting into chain. However if one rides in the dirt and dust, or frequently in the wet - there is absolutely no easier, more cost effective and more time effective way to reset chain contamination in chain than by simply re waxing. However each re wax will bring some contamination into wax in the pot, and over time the wax will become less amazing.
To slow that down and really retain a very long lifespan from a bag of wax before it starts to become impacted with abrasive contamination, two pot system can be brilliant option for offroad / frequent wet weather riders.
Go to the 1hr 39 min mark in episode 7 - waxing FAQ guide - where i demonstrate two pot system like a boss. Basically pot one, chain goes into first, have a little raised bed so old coating can melt off, contamination will settle to the bottom of that wax pot. Then move chain to pot 2, swishing and hang to set. After about 30 re waxes (circa 8000 to 10,000km of normal road riding, will be less for harsh conditions riding), move to fresh bag of wax - pot 2 wax moves over to be pot 1 wax, pot 1 wax is discarded. So it costs no more you are just pre buying your next bag of wax to go two pot, as well as one more $20 slow cooker that will last a very very long time - its a small investment over say 10yrs of its life...
Remember though even if one does not go to two pot and they ride a lot in high contamination environments, and bring a bunch of stuff into wax, it takes A LONG time for the wax in the pot to approach what is going on with those who just add more lube to a chain. Even if one re lubes with a heavy application each time adding say 5ml, that is less than 0.05ml per link. There is only so much flush cleaning that can do, and so over subsequent re lubes and riding, the ratio of abrasive contamination to lubrication in chain gets pretty bad. with an immersive re wax, chain is going into a bath of 400 to 500ml of lubricant.
If one only gets caught in wet occasionally, again they dont need to worry re two pot, a boiling water flush rinse will get rid of the worst of the contamination that dirty water brough in, however if this is frequent, it can still be a pain to boil up the kettle, flush baths, properly dry chain before re wax. It is just really really easy to turn the pots on, pop chain on top of pot one wax, go have a shower, coffee (preferably with a donut), lunch, beer, more coffee - comeback whenever later to spend 30 secs moving to pot 2, swishing, hanging to set, and boom, magnificent super low friction, low wear, looking like brand new chain again with no degreasing or solvent reset post harsh conditions riding.
Would be good if you could do some rust tests on the chains, especially useful for us cyclists in the U.K.
I’ve done wax and they appear good for one day cycling but for more than one day, they just don’t appear to stop rusting and seem to be labour intensive.
The ‘rust’ when waxing really puts me off. For cycling everyday I’m back to wet lube.
Thoughts
If it is rusting i would gather you have ridden in the wet, in which case i would read the section re wet riding in key learnings document - instructions tab. If you ride in the wet with wax, then yes you will have no wax on outside of rollers, they will be unprotected, and they are a high carbon steel for hardness so oxidise readily. You can run wet lubricant to prevent that and sure they wont rust - but all that contamination thrown onto chain by water, which gets deep inside chain - that isnt going anywhere unless you remove it. So just adding more lube and riding, you dont have wet lube, you have a lapping compound.
the best lubricant for wet riding is the one that the cyclist can reset the easiest so that next rides in the sun are not as high wear as if one is still riding in the rain.
With immersive waxing, you either need to just a) re wax post wet ride which will reset contamination, b) add wax compatible drip lubricant to prevent rusting and re lube until your next re wax to re set. 2 chains on rotation if one rides a lot in harsh conditions is a great idea. If you ride a lot in the wet, sooner or later you need a new chain. SO pre buy next one, it costs no more, and guarantees two chains through cassette vs one, and it makes it very easy to keep on top of re waxes - pop one in pot, pop re waxed one on.
Testing for rusting is counter productive as that is testing to see what happens when someone is doing the wrong thing re their lubrication. People should not have a rust concerns, they should have the easy knowledge to protect their chain from both rust and high wear - those two will be very much linked.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 For weekend riding your explanation is good.
However, I wanted low contamination into the chain and a fast ride. Waxing in the U.K. in all weathers 5 days a week is just not feasible. I ride fast on my commute on a road bike. When you get home at 10am after a wet ride and you have to get up at 6.30am you don’t want to be changing chains or re waxing or apply an add on wax based lubricant, it’s just not practical. I’m doing a minimum 300miles a month 5 days a week.
So for my weekend ride maybe, for anything else, it’s difficult to keep up with the waxing, too labour intensive and in the end the chain rusts whatever you do.
Sadly I’ve reverted to wet lube for riding everyday and I’ll just take the hit and buy a new chain sooner due to wear.
@@bikepackingadventure7913 Yes indeedy, not saying it is not without challenges, and those challenges wont suit all. It is important to remember that your situation really is an EXTREME lubrication challenge. Not many machine components on anything in the world face such high pressure workload with such high levels of contamination. IF you opened up your cars engine block directly into a dirty water flow and removed the oil filter - it will be badly damaged pretty quickly from abrasive stuff in the lubrication mix.
For me, and also many others your situation - it is still easier to do the hybrid approach of immersive wax used with compatible wax drip lubricant - Tru-tension tungsten all weather is a great one as does a bit better in wet with a shorter set time vs UFO / ss drip. So if you cannot re wax during week, you have to put up with whatever happens contamination wise for the week, but at least you can easily reset on the weekend with a rewax. Taking 20 secs wipe chain with cloth and apply wax drip lube when home each night is not very time consuming, and will prevent rust issue.
If this isnt feasible then absolutely, just stick with a top wet lubricant that doesnt wash off. If you can do perioding maintenance to flush clean - even if it is super quick cleaning spray on bike, rinse, dry, re apply - you will save a lot of wear vs just letting contamination build and build and build as you add circa 0.03mp per link of new lube per re lube. The contamination to lubrication ratio's just get really bad over time (a short time), and so wear rates ramp up in non linear manner, and people often get caught up by the increasing rate of wear, get caught running chain too long, and so need new cassette with new chain, and made some good inroads into chain rings.
Wet lube is not a wrong choice for many at all. A top wet lube is still a great choice. it is just in my opinion, faster and easier to keep chain low friction by wax, re lube with wax compatible lube during week, re wax to reset on weekend. To try to keep some sort of low friction low wear chain with a wet lube, you will need to solvent flush clean - preferably frequently -(again - weekly would be great) - and this is just more time consuming, costly, and less effective overall vs popping chain into a wax spa bath. But if solvent flush clean is easier for anyone - it is not a wrong answer. If not doing this at all and taking the hit on friction and wear is suits best - it is not a wrong answer - each cyclist should choose what suits them. I am mostly overall trying to ensure cyclists understand the pro's and cons of each path and make an informed choice on which path suits them best.
But - for all an accurate chain checker, and check regularly so that you save other components from being taken out by worn chain which can just happen so quickly. And lastly of course, again if simply staying on top of re lube with a great wet lubricant, rust will not be an factor. Habit of 20 secs to wipe chain and re lube when back from wet ride just solves that issue, if it is rusting on a wet lube, that is a really bad sign re pushing lubricant treatment far too long for the conditions.
I’ve been using DuMonde Tech Classic lubricant for as long as I can remember and it’s always done the job for me so I have never seen any reason to switch. I haven’t seen this product on any of your reviews but I’d be curious how it stacks up! Cheers from California!
Hi rob! Yep i would like to test one or two of dumonde tech lubricants too as overall they seem to have a great reputation in USA. I did try a few years ago, but unfortunately their international formula was different to domestic formula (not sure if that has changed). I believe the domestic formula has / had a volatile carrier that flashed off, but this could only be economically transported via road freight as dangerous goods for air travel (like ufo drip v1 - pain in the arse to ship). As such the int'l formula - the lubricant stayed pretty wet, and so as soon as we hit dry contamination block 2 - things went not well like all wet lubricants really once dust is involved. I didnt bother releasing test as i didnt feel it would reflect at all the experience of their main customer base which is USA - it is likely their domestic formula works a lot better than the int'l.
Dumonde did make contact awhile ago about booking in for testing, but they didnt follow up to book in. Im not chasing as i can barely keep up with booked in tests, and if i get a break, there are a bunch of other products i am more curious about that i would like to test first.
So... i dont know - without testing i just do not know how Dumonde compare to the other top products tested to date. Cyclists anecdotal data can be very wobbly. Ie a lot (A LOT) of cyclists keep buying muc off c3 dry or finish ceramic - likely also thinking its done the job for them, and they have not kept any accurate km data to an accurate 0.5% wear rate mark, and then tried a top tested lubricant vs what they have been using to see if one is actually better - which in the case of those lubricants one can easily get many times the lifespan on a top tested product. So it is great that dumonde has a great reputation - but how much basis in fact this is based on vs well didnt actively eat my drivetrain so yeehaa, must be good! i just do not know...
If they book in, then that is a great sign as the ZFC test is very hard, and only mfg that have a lot of confidence in their products make a booking - it is not a cheap exercise to then get a not happy result back.
DuMonde Tech was a favorite of mine. It works.
Wax is a complete game change, in my opinion. No way any oil based lube can be compared to wax.
Im glad i found this. Ive not been impressed by any of the fancy lubes i come across. Thry are always a gunky mess regardless of my efforts. I assumed it was me. My recent disappointment with the Wolftooth lube brought me looking for reviews to see if i was the anomaly.
Im not claiming the basic Park Tools lube is great but it works so much better for me than "exotic" lubes ive tried. It lasts long enough and is easy to wipe down. Thats all i need for touring. I dont need the longest lasting or cleanest or least friction. I need a satisfactory combination of a lot of things. Im happy to stop questioning my gut.
Hey Michael! yes welcome to this product demographic - it is a NIGHTMARE for consumers as mfg can claim whatever they like, and the market is so crowded with every clamouring for their business. Hence why zfc is here. I havent tested park tool, but odds are super high they have not developed a lubricant specifically to be great for a bicycle chain, it will be a re bottled and re branded X lubricant from somewhere. which means it is probably in a big area of meh to not bad re performance.
you are correct, quite a number of fancy and powerfully marketed products have tested very badly, like WT-1, like muc-offs. But if you pick one from the say top 15 of the league table - then you will be on a proven top lubricant for a bicycle chain, and a product developed specifically for that purpose, and with a lot of genuine R&D and testing by mfg for that product to perform for that use case which really is a very tough one - chains are under very high pressure load, do a huge amount of mechanical work, and are fully exposed to all contamination. Most lubricants from industry are for sealed environments.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I will likely try the Silca wet lube but I suppose if I'm happy with the Park lube I have no need to do so until I run out. I picked up the Wolftooth only because I was making a small credit card purchase from a small shop and wanted to raise the sale a little. I despise that lube 😂
@@michaelviglianco6121 yep for sure - just take note mostly of cost of your components - if cheap groupset, then running a who knows what performance lube - if it turns out to have double the wear rate vs synergetic - which would be very easily done - then not really that much of a stress. if your components are worth a good bit of coin, then using up $10 worth of lubricant to potentially double the wear rate vs a proven extremely wear protective high performing product- that $10 could literally cost a lot more re avoidable wear = thousands more kms from the components. Even if the park too lubricant is decent, many decent wet lubes are a fair way behind the likes of synergetic / black diamond etc - and if ones cassette & Rings are worth a lot, that means a lot.
So in this 500+gm pot of wax that doesn't contaminate too easily, the boiling water immersion step helps slow the rate of decline much further, with warm or hot chains most likely accepting wax better too? If putting wet chains into wax could be a problem, does bringing the wax & chain/s above 100C eliminate such problems? How does the temp at which chains are removed the final retained wax level within the chain? Wax transition temps are approx 68 & 360C. Silca's wax and others, can't be filtered and must be adequately stirred before adding chains to ensure even particle distribution. So what lifetime benefit would you estimate coming from doubling the amount of wax used in the 'crockpot'? It's unlikely to be doubled, but wax is relatively cheap.
Hey David,
1) No you dont need a warm hot chain - the wax will heat up the chain and melt old coating off - just give it 10 mins once wax is melted.
2) There is conflicting information on wet chains in wax - yes the water should evap off even when wax is not 100dg c. SIlca have tested and advised it does, msw have tested and advised it doesnt - so i need to do some of my own, in there interim based on customer experience i am still recommending it is best to dry chain post boiling water rinses.
3) only do boiling wate rinses post proper wet rides, there is no need to at all post dry riding it is a waste of elec, time and faff.
4) no you do not need to stir wax prior, a 20 sec swish of chain in wax will distribute friction modifiers through the wax that will then be what is coating inside of chain
5) yes more wax will dilute the amount of abrasive contamination inside - but two pot system is more effective vs doubling in one pot. Refer to the two pot system like a boss at the 1hr 39 min mark on wax FAQ vid (episode 7)
6) waxes like hot melt and msw typically have a transition temp around 60dg c. Dont worry about final temp when removing. If you remove near set temp to "lock in more wax" it is just more excess that will be pressed out when you pedal. The pressures inside chain are extremely high - after 10mins of riding you will the same layer left for removing at 60dg c and immediately cooling as you do removing at 100dg c and hanging up on a 40dg c summers day.
Adam, wouldn‘t it be possible to top-up a hot waxed chain also with Rex Black Diamond besides/instead of UFO drip or SS drip?
No, black diamond is a wet lube. Putting a wet lubricant on your chain will really stuff up wax being able to bond to chain
What do you think of stuff like White Lightning “clean ride” / finish line “ceramic wax” / etc? Where it’s a wax, goes on liquid, the wax dries on the chain, It surely must be some kind of black magic?
Ah both of those are terrible! Clean ride is like 90% carrier and so little actual lubrication - just super high wear rates. White lightning epic ride held the record as the worst lubricant tested by friction facts coming in at a whopping 9w loss - on a perfectly clean chain in clean lab test!! Epic ride is believed to be even worse. Those types of traditional dry lubricant - muc-off c3 dry, finish line dry, clean ride etc - they arent black magic, just a tiny bit of lubricant in mostly carrier where the carrier evaps off - they just have far too little actual lubricant so are very high wear.
Ceramic is just pure bullshit. The mental map the marketing creates is one of the chain parts are coated in ceramic which is then wear protective. What a load of baloney. There is such a tiny amount of ceramic - a token amount to claim it on the label - even if a ton of it was in there - how is it going to for a hard coating on chain parts? are you going to bake your chain in a kiln? The amount of, type, and application involved to achieve a ceramic coating on the internal load surfaces of ones chain - fook me that is so far from being able to be achieved by dripping a lubricant on from a bottle.
So if that is not happening, what is happening? well, if a small amount of very fine, very hard ceramic particles is added to a lubricant - would this not be abrasive? who adds tiny very hard particles into their lubricant expecting that to help lower wear and friction. I have some iron filings and sand i can sell people to add to their chain lubricant to help if they still believe in ceramic lubricants after reading this.
if you have been using any of the above and been happy, and then switch to using any lubricant in the top 10 of test leaderboard, you will soon be doing cartwheels of joy.
Will ‘pressure cooking’ be the next frontier for getting ‘long-chain’ penetration resistant lubricants properly applied within tight chains? Heat is one dimension of application; pressure is another, agitation is yet another still. (Don’t get me started on ultrasonic injection molding!)
ha yes you should see the increasing number of emails i get re vacuum waxing!! I dont think that will ever be a thing. Firstly if one is taking chain off for an immersion application, then penetration issue is resolved - be it immersive wax or if it is a wax drip lubricant that has penetration issues (ie squirt is perfect if applied immersive). Chains are not really very water tight so submerge them in lubricant and shake, and all is sweet, nothing fancier needs to be done to ensure 100% penetration after that. it is just that will a wax liquid lube, it is a bit of a faff re excess.
As such many of the latest gen stuff they work REALLY hard on ensuring the penetration issue is solved for normal application. Ie Silca SS drip, ufo drip, effetto mariposa flower power - all with zero penetration issues applying normally. That has really been the new trend. I think even i would find a pressure cooker a step too far. Same with using a vacuum chamber to immersive wax. It is going a long way to solve a problem that's already fine and solved.
@@zerofrictioncycling992, I would agree that for current bicycle transmission designs, immersive wax gives a great combination of low friction and low wear despite the need for fairly frequent renewal. Perhaps there is another balance point available where the use of a high molecular weight ultra-pure long chain lubricating polymer could be co-molded into an assembled chain for a somewhat higher friction but much longer lasting pre-lubricated transmission chain? (An E-bike chain?)
Actually my experience is opposite. Vacuum actually get better penetration
@@goixiz yep not saying vacuum wouldnt be better - just saying the amount it is better vs a normal swishing would be so small that it could not be tangible measured and as such unlikely to gain much take up in general demographic of immersive waxers
You stated in regards to drip waxing - to not over apply & to make sure to wipe off excess. However, UFO recommends a constant stream of lube 2x on the chain without wiping off excess. Does this seem right to you or are they just trying to get us to use more of their product? Thanks!👍
I havent seen the part re not wiping excess - if i get a min i will try and re check instructions. The 2x is a good thing however, and no - it is all sort of relative - ie others might be 1x , but they are not giving you 180ml of product.
UFO drip is a heavier application and this does help get some more wax layer in. Others that are a lesser application, such as ss drip - can have a pretty short treatment lifespan. If you try to apply more than a few ml of ss drip or a number of others, it just drips off chain on to the floor. UFO drip will largely stay on the chain with a heavy application and able to be worked in. Overall this is a good trait, and UFO drip feels very smooth for a good stretch after application as a good layer can be attained.
It would make no sense to me not to wipe excess - excess will set on outside and over a few applications start to gunk up. You need lubrication on the inside of the chain, not sitting on the outside.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 That’s what I was thinking. It makes more sense to me to apply the lube on each link rather than putting a constant stream of it for 2 cycles. Thanks
Just wondering when you put the chain in boiling water, what length of time do you keep it in?
Hey herb, about 20 to 30 secs, then swish for about 20 secs - x 3 baths of about 500ml (one kettles worth) - does a great flush post wet rides - do not do post dry rides it is not really any benefit unless it is been an extremely dusty ride - for constant dust or wet riding two pot system like a boss (1hr 39min mark of waxing FAQ vid) is most efficient and effective. Have seen issues over the years for those doing boiling water rinses all the time when there is no benefit, they can have worse longevity over the long run as they get lazy on drying chain before waxing. (heat gun / hair dryer makes it easy). It is a bulk contamination removal clean not a perfect clean, if there is no bulk contamination because it was dry ride, there is no benefit to doing.
Hello, thanks for your videos and tests! Thanks to you I bought the rex black diamond chain lube and I applied it after cleaning all the parts of my bike with ufo clean, however I have a question: do I have to clean all the parts again (cassette, crankset, etc) and chain with ufo before reappliying lube ?
Ah most excellent - are you road riding? if dry road then no you dont need to clean very often with that lubricant other than just wiping excess is good with a microfiber cloth. The lubricant is black, so chain, cogs, rings etc - they will always be a little black when running a wet lubricant, but BD needs very little vs most other wet lubricants, and lasts much longer per treatment, so you have much less faff to ever have to worry about re keeping low friction and low wear.
i have a chain maintenance guide - instructions tab - for BD you can really extend the periodic cleaning intervals out a bit.
Thanks bro I will read the guide, I was worried because after the first ride my hands were black when they touched the chain, but if it's normal everything's fine!@@zerofrictioncycling992
I use and ultrasonic cleaner at 75degC with 5 containers
First container: wax and grease remover.
Second container: Potassium hydroxide solution.
Third container: plain water with a couple of drops of detergent.
Fourth pot: Acetone or isopropyl alcohol.
Fifth container: Chain wax
I process 3 chains at a time once a year, none of my chains or sprockets have shown substantial wear after 3 years of trail riding.
that is quite a process. Not saying its not the ultimate - but i do wonder how that was tangibly assessed to arrive at that process.
I would still say for most simply mineral turpentine baths followed by methylated spirits is simple and perfect and generally quite cheap, or one bath of UFO DT clean or silca stripper, rinse with boiling water, dry - and so literally a 10 to 15 min process and boom done.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 not really a big process, just fill the tubs in the ultrasonic with the fluids and transfer the chains from one container to the other after 5 minutes, takes 25 minutes from dirty to clean and waxed.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 they are all chemicals I use frequently for cleaning processes on engine parts and are always ready to go btw
Great video! Immersion waxing is best for high performance bikes, but I'm still struggling to find the best lube for winter use on my commuter bike. I'm running two 40minute rides every day on wet salted roads (as well as some longer rides). With wax it rusts (at least on the outside). With oil based it gets dirty really fast. Any suggestions?
Hey morten!
Yes overall it is a tough one. The first part though is to recognize that really this is an EXTREME lubrication challenge. Imagine if you took the seals of all your bearings - how would they be fairing after a week, and they do SO MUCH less mechanical work than your chain, and still much less exposed.
My advice is that you want the least worst. Abrasive contamination is what is going to kill the chain, and for me there is still no easier or cheaper way to reset contamination than doing an immersive re wax, vs a solvent clean and re lube.
Re waxing frequently during the week may not be feasible, so it is best to use in conjunction with a wax compatible lubricant such as (in your case) tru-tension tungsten all weather - - wipe chain dry when home, and apply so chain is protected from rust, then re wax on weekend to reset.
For intrepid commuters two chains in rotation also really helps, as you can swap chains halfway during week so one chain isnt hammered. You always need a new chain sooner or later, so pre buying one costs no more, can greatly help extend lifespan of two chains vs same of one then another, ensures you get two chains through cassette vs getting caught out just getting one etc - and it takes no more time really to re wax two at once as it does one. Just wrap the removed chain in a microfiber cloth until weekend spa.
If waxing path just isnt for you for commuter, then top wet lubricant like synergetic (best in wet so far). I would still rotate two chains - but you can probably do weekly vs during week. The chain that is off can then just get a quick flush with something on the weekend when you can and then re apply, whilst the other chain takes up the running for the upcoming week. With a top lubricant like synergetic, if you prevent too much abrasive build up by doing something each weekend and rotating chains, you will definitely enjoy a much greater lifespan for everything vs what you current plan has been - i would be very confident of that. Either the wax path or the synergetic path as above is as good as you can do for commuting in such conditions regularly - i just personally find a wax bath more pleasing (and super easy) vs faffing with a solvent clean even if its just a quick solvent flush job - and it only takes about 30 secs when hope to quickly throw on an immersive wax compatible drip lubricant like TTAW so that it is protected and re lubed for next commute until its chain swap day.
hope that helps!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 , Thanks for the tips!
I will buy a bottle of tru-tension tungsten all weather and try.
Previous years I've been using cheap sram pc-1110 chains and thrown away after one winter. Tried wax, but the pc-1110 chain just rusts like crazy. So then it was back to oil based lubes. But they get grimy and grindy very quickly, and eats chainrings and casettes.
This winter I think I will be trying waxing again - but have to do some effort i reducing rust.
Have one XX1 and one KMC x11 EPT that hopefully resists rusting better.
I know a few people have had sucess on their car applying Bilt-hamber Atom Mac corrosion inhibitor to the brake discs after washing and during winter.
It might be worth it trying Atom mac and de-ionized water (from the tumble dryer) on the chain post-ride...? It might protect the steel where the wax doesn't I think.
edit: Atom Mac test: www.detailingworld.co.uk/threads/atom-mac-neutralising-salt.400186/
@@Morten_B Ah interesting - yeah i am not sure i would try that just from worries it may impact wax bonding / contaminate the wax. Alas i dont have snowy / salted roads here to personally test - but - i would think (and from many others cycling in such around the world on waxing) - that simply wiping chain dry and applying wax lube as top up should protect and prevent rust just fine. If you are finding it really bad it may be something you quickly do when get to work (just slam on a couple ml of TTAW and ensure it is covering chain) and then same at home. Do same before removing and wrapping in cloth if swapping chains mid week until the weekend re wax. Mspeedwax themselves are based in minnesota so they and huge local customer base trains through salted snow roads all winter, and just ensuring chain is either re wax post ride or top up with wax lubricant post ride - all is sweet, and the VASTLY lower wear and sweeter running of having a chain running on super slippery wax vs becoming a grinding paste sure is a more pleasurable thing for riding and for ones components over winter. I would give the above a crack first before looking at anti rust additives. Let me know how you go this winter!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I've never known anyone to spend so much attention responding to viewers' questions and comments. Really appreciated, thanks!
Squirt just works. No big money and my gravel bicycle chain lastet for a year, before salt on the road +no little lubbing got it.
One downside is that you need a 2nd bottle for low temperatures (it just started to freeze again in Europe...)
I am about to hotwax my road bike chain for the first time, my only concern is I will be away from home for over a month and riding around 700kms a week for that time. I intend to keep the wax topped up with Silca Super secret chain lube. However if it rains I cannot re-hotwax, what would you suggest would be the best approach?
Hey steve! Yep for sure silca ss drip is the normal go to top up lube, just re apply in between waxings as needed. However, if it is looking to be wet, its wet weather longevity is pretty short - especially if it has not had a long sent time (ie they recommend at least 24hrs before wet ride). It would be worth seeing if you can get some tru-tension tungsten all weather to use instead, and you can just boiling water flush rinse on return to get out the crap all the water brought in, dry, re wax
Ride mechanic is founding a research in Griffith University for the chain lube efficiency.
I am looking forward their result.
That would be great. Hopefully he doesnt fall for the usual traps (ie do via electrical power consumption vs torque sensor) - so what equipment, the calibration and test protocol, what data we see etc - hopefully that will be open. If we have an accurate efficiency loss lab in Aus that i could use that would be amazing.
How are you able to take of your chain off and put it back on using the same masterlink? Shimano say not to reuse masterlinks once they are off, this means everytime I take my chain off to immersive wax I have to spend £10 on a chain link. What chain would you therefore recommend to use for immersive waxing that is conpatiable for shimano 12 speed and that I can take off every month or so for an immersive wax?
Hi, Michael! 🙂 Twelve quid for a single link? Blimey, I can get two new tyres for that! I use chain links multiple times. The one on my current bike is more than five years old and must have been removed and reused at least twenty times.
I only buy cheap chains (£4.00), and find that as long as I clean them regularly - once a week with white spirit on a rag, and maybe once a month in a (£6) rotating-brush automatic chain-scrubbing tool (also with white spirit) - they last for thousands of road miles.
I use ordinary new car-engine oil for chain lubrication (10W-40), and it works perfectly well (for me). That admission will horrify bike nuts, but that's their problem, not mine. I'm based in the north of England where the weather is always lousy, so I favour wet lubrication.
I'm skint, and have no interest in keeping up to date with developments in the cycling world, and I'm not a gear-snob. I use whatever works, as long as it's cheap.
I work chains and chainrings till the chains won't stay on under pressure on the way up my local big hill. Yes, that makes me a terrible person in the eyes of most 'proper' cyclists and all manufacturers, but I don't mind. My current chainring is the original cheapo steel one; more than two decades old, its teeth are now very worn, so I've decided to replace it. Couldn't find anything affordable in steel (boo!), so I've had to go for a 53-tooth hardened alloy one for £15. I hope it lasts.
My current bike's a basic all-steel one (£130, new). It's 22 years old and has done well over 50,000 miles. I must be a bike and accessory manufacturer's worst nightmare, because I don't buy new stuff every week and am content with what I've got. I don't obsess about weight, watts, friction , rolling-resistance or efficiency; I just want a reliable workhorse. I quite often tow a homemade 2-wheel trailer loaded with anything up to 120 lbs of shopping, groceries, or building supplies.
In my non-professional experience, chain links [Quicklinks? Masterlinks?] will last and last - IF you're willing to ignore peer pressure and the manufacturers' dire warnings. Yes, their recommendations are based on facts, empirical data and accurate laboratory tests, but that doesn't mean that a removable link CAN'T be reused multiple times; it just means that Shimano's tech-dudes can prove that it's not as reliable as a brand new one. Still reliable, but not AS reliable. Oh, those weasel-words...😁
So, they advise swapping them every time to maintain the company's excellent reputation, but it's not strictly necessary [IMHO]. I decided to try it and see, and haven't had a chain fail in 30+ years of cycling.
The manufacturers need people to buy new stuff. There's no profit in a satisfied customer. They invent better, lighter, faster, greener, cooler 'essential' trends and bits of kit to keep the cash rolling in. Tubeless tyre systems, hydraulic disc brake systems, titanium doobries, electric shifters, carbon frames and wheels, special anti-puncture tech, and now dry-wax chain immersion treatment systems. Yep - it has to be a complete SYSTEM, because that's where the profit lies.
But when you're on a tiny budget and as cheap as I am, none of that matters; it's easy to ignore their blandishments and warnings. 🤭 Reuse those links, my friend!
My chain tear tests are done using a Heine 200 tonne brake press and jewelled gauge and sensors . More reliable and accurate than "YOUR TESTS" .
that is awesome - pls link to the tests and results
What's the latest on Effetto Mariposa Flowerpower wax? Can you conclude if it is a good idea to use it for topping up paraffin based hot waxes, like Silca and Rex black diamond for example?
i havent been able to field test any futher, at this stage it does seem like the more oily sunflower base will shorten treatment lifespan of the paraffin base blend immersive waxes - so it is not the recommended choice as a top up lube for immersive waxing. It is a great product, but really it is going to be a great wax lube option for those who are not immersive waxing
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for the reply. My usage scenario is a multi-day ultra race, where I could re-lube before 2-3h sleep stops. I thought Flower power would be a better choice than SS drip, because of shorter wax set time. But since there's also a high chance my chain is wet at the time of my stops, I'll switch to Synergetic entirely.
@@v2rv yes i would say synergetic is a safer bet for sure. I need to find a time / good way to test wax drip set times but i would say 2 to 3hrs is optimistic, and if they are not set they will wash off easily as the water is carrier. Set times certainly will be extended if chain is wet. Whilst you will get a faster build up of contamination - riding without sufficient lubricant will usually be worse. For such events if there is a support stop you can put a fresh waxed chain on halfway through and start 2nd of event on super low friction chain again, that is a great way to go if one can.
If 99% of my rides is in road and dry conditions, do you think I should change my lube from Smoove to Silca synergetic? Reason why I want to change because I think im not getting 100% out of smoove, Ive degreased my chain with mineral turps and isoprophyl alcochol but couldnt heat my chain properly because before I put my chain back on bike its already cold, also when reaplying Im not heating smoove too. At the moment I have almost 3000 km on this chain with Smoove and it doesnt fit to 0.75% chain checker yet so i have no complain with chain longetivity but the main reason why i would like to change to Synergetic lube is that Smoove is not very silent (maybe because of penetration issue?), not very clean and is not that long lasting as Synergetic would be, also collect some grime on cassete even though i reaply every 300~km with 2 revolutions. I think in my riding conditions (99% road and dry) I would be more happy with Synergetic lube, I suppose it would be much more silent, much longer lasting, and would be pretty much same dirty as smoove is, also I much more prefer very silent drivetrain than little bit black casssete. What do you think, I should make this lube change, will i get results what im looking for? Or maybe change to something else (dont want hot wax). And also If i should change, what would be best way to clean old chain with smoove before aplying Synergetic lube? Thank you very much if you will have time to answer me.
Hey David - yep for sure thats probably worth switching. Smoove can be great for some, but it does take a bit to get the best out of it. Really it is offroad riders that need to ensure on a good wax option vs wet lube option, for road riders - a top wet lubricant is definitely a brilliant path for many. yes they will run black, but they will not be any more unsightly really than wax option thats gunking up over time, and wet lube for road is very easy to maintain as most anything will wipe off / remove excess - smoove is a tough clean.
Especially for options like synergetic where you need very little of the product to effectively lubricant for a very long time, the chains are less wet / easier to maintain than many other wet lubes.
Most should expect to get around 8000km for road riding using synergetic, it is extremely wear protective. Follow the chain maintenance guide for best results for any drip lubricant - but overall any periodic (every 2000 to 3000km etc) flush clean and re lube with a top wet lubricant is easy for road riders to reset any contamination starting to make a bit abrasive as you have no penetration issues etc.
zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/chain-maintenance-guide-v5.pdf
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thank you!
I started using rice cooker for my chains in January this year. I have new Tiagra 4700 groupset and I'm keeping original wheels ,chain(KMC X10) and cassette for training. I gor lighter wheels, Ultegra 6700 cassette and another KMC X10 chain for race ( or PB attempts). Im satisfied in general but have more space for improvement. Instead of my cheap wax I'm trying to buy Silca Hot wax + Supersecret lube to top of. I have damaged one of my chains with to aggressive ultrasonic bath-cavitation. Now I'm in market for best training and best race 10spd chain . Suggestions PLEASE!
Hi ten sapphires! Definitely a proper wax vs DIY is going to help A LOT, and move to a slow cooker / crock pot vs rice cooker - rice cooker heats wax way too fast and damages the wax. so just going to hot melt + ss drip and moving to a slow cooker will make a huge difference. And it is difficult to damage chain with ultrasonic so extra points there! Maybe skip that, you really really do not need ultrasonic at all unless going full chain optimisation, in which case follow guide in instructions tab. Best race chain is going to be shimano DA 10 spd, best overall chain is going to be ybn sla 10spd. KMC typically very fast chains - similar to DA, but we have seen issues re wear rate and wax adhesion to chain (the low friction coating they use seems to not get along with waxes).
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thank you ZFC! Some small points: it's slow cooker I'm using, not rice cooker. I made mistake earlier. I live and learn. My DIY wax is parafin wax + 0,6 microns Teflon powder. I thought that chain needed to be as clean as it can before waxing (every time) so I used hot water, degreaser, steam and 2l ultrasonic unit made for dental tehnician lab (Renfert). I switched to waxing in first place to keep my calf clean 😂
@@zerofrictioncycling992 So, I can't find anywhere DA 10spd chain. CN95HG, Ultegra 6700, KMC x10, x10sl, x10sl gold, YBN 5 different models, Wipperman 4 different models, SRAM 1030,Campagnolo 2 models...
@@TenSapphires ah i see. But when you say its paraffin wax - there are a gazillion grades and purities - dirt cheap paraffin will be pretty bad, lab grade / food grade paraffin can be great but it can also be bad if one gets a grade that is too soft or too brittle. And if you can, it is time to move away from PTFE. But definitely cleaning every time before waxing like that often causes a lot of problems. It just isnt needed at all - you will not track a longevity benefit even if done perfectly if you mostly ride in dry conditions vs just re waxing and skipping all that hoohaa. And what we see most often is those who do every time typically have issues as they start to skimp on ensuring chain is dry before re waxing etc - they are often doing a worse re wax than if they just re wax. Post wet rides only - boiling water flush rinse, DRY, re wax. Best yet if one rides a lot in wet, dry chain and two pot system like a boss as demonstrated at the 1hr 39min mark in waxing FAQ vid (episode 7)
@@TenSapphires Hey there! Not sure where you are located but definitely in some areas a lot of chain stocks are really hard to get at the moment. But we sell ybn sla 10spd and 11spd - they will run on any 10spd and 11spd drivetrain perfectly...in fact they are the rolls royce of chains for 10 & 11spd systems indeed. Int'l shipping is flat rate $65 so if getting multiple chains it works out not too bad re shipping - If you are in Aus its only 9.95.
Any thoughts on pre-warming drip wax lube mate ??
Hey ron - for some wax lubes / some temps definitely that an be a great idea. If ambient temp is over 20dg c - most are fine, but some (like smoove / squirt etc) that dont penetrate as well, warming them in a cup of hot water (not boiling water - hot tap water) - can help - but also if doing that it can really help to warm the chain as well. Remember about 0.03 ml of lube per link is going on - if the chain is cool, the warmed lube will pretty much instantly cool to the same temp as the chain. So if one stores bike somewhere and chain is 15dg c or 10 dg c - so quite cool to cold - if you warm the lube, it is not going to be warm half a second after it hits the chain, it will be cold by the time it is past roller - which wont aid it getting through the narrow gap between inner link plate shoulders to get to the pin where it is really needed.
Adam, I do extended self supported bicycle touring. I often carry a spare chain that I swap and clean opportunistically. What do you recommend to carry for lubricant. Surfaces and weather varies.
There is always a bit of in and out re this and it will also depend a lot on what you are using at the moment ie i am not sure if you are waxing, wax drip, wet lube etc.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Currently road cycling using oil plus cling and low friction additive rotating 3 chains every about 500 km. Also use commercial industrial chain lube. Have used hot wax in the past but find it needs shorter intervals. Clean chains with petrol same on tour (what i have). By the time 3 chains are worn the cassette is warn too. 6 chains to a crank set or there abouts. The oil is messier than wax but that does not bother me.
@@dan2304 In that case it kinda depends what your main goal is with change. What immersive wax previously? some diy can be not great vs top waxes. However vs an industrial oil, wax treatment lifespan will be shorter for sure, but it will also not become an industrial griding paste. It depends if re applying a wax lubricant on top frequently inbetween re waxes is better for you than using petrol to maintain current path etc. This is where personal preferences come into account. Personally i would find it similarly painful to have a pineapple shoved into dark place as having to run a black oil and maintenance with petrol / solvents to try keep that low friction in a completely exposed to all contamination application. Others find re applying a wax lube relatively frequently to be a pain. There are long lasting wax drips, but they are a tougher clean generally when clean time comes, and they dont really mix with immersive waxing if one is looking to do wax - use wax compatible drip next X re lubes, re wax to reset any contamination - which is rather vastly better (in my opinion ) vs solvent maintenance.
If staying wet lube then for sure lubricants like Silca Synergetic, synerg-E, Rex Black diamond, revolubes - they are much better by way of needing very little product to lubricate and protect from wear for long stints - as such they remain less abrasive for much longer, and are an easy clean when its time to flush clean periodically depending on riding conditions.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks Adam, I think i am getting good wear. Something simple like the black diamond and a spare chain sounds suitable for multi week tours. I have not tried modern waxes. At my age 74 and with a high load touring bike and a credit card touring bike (couple of changes of cloths and a credit card) to ride i doubt I will wear anything out. Neither chain wheel is showing wear with a combined nearly 30,000 km. I do think regular maintenance and rotating 3 chains is the secret to long cog life. Chains are low cost compared to good cassettes and chain rings.
So WT-1 is considered a wet lube? I thought that the cleaning action of this lube was helping to keep the dirt out but if I understand correctly I’d still better use a dry lube than this modern WT-1?
ah my wordy lordy yes WT-1 is very wet. I have covered in a latest news update article (i forget which one, and i am overdue to get the proper detail review done - will be soon) but the marketing re "cleaning as lubricate" for a wet lubricant, offroad, is completely flawed and completely BS. If it is wet, it is ATTRACTING abrasive contamination at a rapid rate. If it has detergent in it to supposedly clean, well maybe post ride, if you put and entire bottle through it, and wipe excess, sure - you may have cleaned your chain a small (very small) amount. But whilst it is out riding? It is like me handing you a packet of bandaids whilst i start manically stabbing you.
This one really disappoints me because i think wolf tooth overall are much better than this. but to go to market with a wet lube, for offroad riding, and that it is self cleaning - that is just really really disappointing for such a company. Just check the wear rates for dry contamination block 2 to see if their marketing is correct or not....(its not....) - and in testing it is extremely apparent, contamination was absorbed immediately, readily, and the very high wear rate shows self cleaining is not happening - which, for reasons too long to explain here, are sadly just a BS marketing claim.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks a lot for these details! I did order WT-1 yesterday just before I see your post, damn haha. I guess I will keep it for my fatbike riding and will keep using a dry lube on my mountain bike.
13:51 for MTB info
Hello! Do you buy these from the market or do you get these from the manufacturer? Be sure that you get the same stuff as we mere mortals, so that you don't get a "special" mix.
I have been using Rex black diamond for two weeks and its amazing, but for MTB use its so expensive. After 40km dry offroad ride my chain is full of sand and grime. The rollers look clean and the grime is on the "side". So I am not sure how bad it is. I usually just wipe the chain with paper and try to wash my bike with water every third ride. I might have to start washing my bike every ride now that the autumn has arrived.
Do you have any plans to test the cheaper Rex Domestique?
Thanks!
Mostly bought - even if booked paid test for exactly that reason. Some testing is direct from mfg as testing various formulas and control's and then the production formula needs to be tested.
Whilst Rex Black diamond is the only "wet" lubricant i can endorse for use offroad IF one has to use a wet lubricant offroad, i am trying to really hammer home that overall ZFC really recommends to use a top wax base lubricant as wet lubricant and offroad is a mis match of product type to purpose. IF too much of certain type / grade of dust - it is just not going to go well. whilst BD is the lowest wear of all wet lubricants tested in dry contamination block it is still multiple times greater wear than the top wax lubricants tested. I would try effetto mariposa flower power wax, lowest wear record for a drip lubricant, long last, and 5x the dust resistance even vs black diamond.
Rex domestique i have tested (test data is up on lubricant test page i am just very behind getting to detail reviews). But overall recommendation is not to skimp on lubricant - over 10,000km the lubricant cost is a very minor portion of total cost to run, component wear is by far the dominant cost, so the lower wear option is always the cheaper option by far. And again, if harsh offroad is your riding, it is just time to move from wet lubricant to extremely dust resistant options.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks! Your Rex Black Diamond review says that it costs $20, but the cost is now $40 or 40e here in Finland. Rex Domestique is $20.
Thats the thing I don't think that my riding environment is that harsh. It's a dry ridge with forest trails and ocassional sandy sections. I have only ridden in dry environment.
Maybe it's because I have only been mountaing biking for 3 months that the drive train maintenance has got me off guard.
Anyway great channel and I will try the sunflower wax next!
@@Zetbo my rex black diamond review has it as $59.90 aud. How did you prep chain? if environment not extremely harsh that is a super short life for the longest lifespan lubricant tested to date.....
@@Zetbo What we have found at rex is that if you do not remove factory grease or previous lubrication with degreaser, it will effect significantly on the longevity of our BD or Domestique. So, good cleaning before applying rex is advised. After that you should be quite on the safe side of friction.
@@zerofrictioncycling992
Oh my bad on the price. I got confused with the last table on the review, but it's the amount used in 10,000km.
For first apply I used a degreaser and then washed with water. Then wipe it with a clean microfiber rag and let it dry for 4-5 hours. Then apply one drop for every roller wait 30-60 seconds before going forward with the chain.
Maybe I am just over zealous about my chain and it's ok to ride. The rollers were clean, but around the rollers had sand and grime there. I have SRAM Eagle AXS drivetrain and it's expensive AF, so I don't want to be buying new casette anytime soon.
Great video. For a year I´ve been using Rex Domestique but I´m thinkig to giving a try to Effeto Flowerpower. It is a way cheeper. What do you think? Thank you. Martin
I like domestique - it is a solid product at a great price point - but for many who just want a top drip lubricant - it is really hard not to rate flower power higher. It simply has recorded the lowest wear rate of any drip lubricant tested to date, so overall quite a measurable gap in wear rate vs domestique.
A consideration would be if you ride a fair bit in the wet. Whilst its performance in the wet will be overall better, you do have to always consider post wet ride care. Water brings a lot of contamination into chain, and it will be pressed into lubricant deep inside. Effetto being wax will really need to be reset with cleaner that works on wax - ie UFO drivetrain clean or effetto's alpine extra. Domestique you can do a flush reset with any cheap solvent really. If you rarely ride in the wet and so rarely need to reset - then flower power is an easy yes to try in ZFC opinion. If you ride a lot in wet and so need to regularly do a reset to keep things low friction - just consider need to a solvent that works on wax.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks alot for a nice summary :) I never ride in the wet. Only time the water gets onto my bike is when I'm cleaning my whole bike. But same is with Rex Domestique or not? Yesterday I had to clean my bike so I´ve relubed the chain with Rex. I just wipe the chain with the cloth and relube. So I´m doing it wrong? I should degrease the chain? I can´t just top of with Effetto with just wiping the chain with cloth? I would have to use a degreaser? thank you.
@@sheen675 No if just riding in dry road conditions - rex domestique is a solid choice. Over time airborne dust will make the lubricant more abrasive, and so periodic degreaser maintenance is recommended - but you are looking at every approx 1500km+ at least, certainly far from every ride.
If moving to effetto then yes you would want to fully solvent flush clean chain. Degreaser spray on bike wont do a great job for this - you would want to follow the chain prep guide as you want to reset the chain back to clean and clear chain metal so the wax lube can bond to chain (instructions tab on zfc website).
Once on effetto though, you wont really need to ever do any maintenance as dust resistance is very very high. You would just do surface cleaning maintenance for aesthetics, you wouldnt really need to bother actually resetting chain. do so every now and then would still be beneficial but we are talking long intervals between a full clean - circa 3000km+ for flower power on road.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks alot again for a nice answer. Of course before first application of Rex I did very thorough strip of a factory lub. I´ve used technical petrol, let it stay overnight, than I used technical alcohol for few hours and as last step I use a degreeser with boling water. This should be enough :) I want to use Effetto for road and XC. With and XC for sure I will have lots of dust in summer. So with Effetto I would strip factory lube with same procedure and then just aply. After each ride maybe clean by the cloth and from time to time reapply. Yea with XC it is easy chain last 800-1500km. Mostly I switch to a new chain with 1000km and I leave it in my box. last year I was switching between 3 chains. But sure my road bike chain last longer so here I could do a full reset/strip off after long period as you.
@@sheen675 Groovy - with effetto even for offroad you will not need to do a full clean very often (unless wet, like all lubricants need re setting after wet). Just wipe outside with microfiber cloth and alcohol to lift surface dust so that re lube doesnt bring it inside chain. You should get A LOT longer chain lifespan than 1500km on effetto even offroad. A lot lot longer.
Has anyone tried baking on a layer of non-stick coating like with seasoning a cast iron pan? Soak in oil, wipe off, then bake in an oven?
Hey wonchoe - no doubt somewhere someone has tried it! I am not sure of the benefit though. External, you dont need a non stick coating, you just want to avoid excess wet lubricant attracting contamination. But what you really need is very low friction lubricant INSIDE the chain, which your cast iron pan wont help much with.
I really like the idea and would use immersive wax treatment on my chains though I am a bit worried about reusing the chain power lock link. I use Campag Ekar on my Gravel bike and Sram Force 11 speed on my road bike. Do you have any words that could possibly allay my worry in this regard?
Hey paul yep for sure - i cover in better detail on page 8 of master link faq guide (instructions tab on zfc website) - but in short - whilst these links are officially singe use, we have seen zero issues over time (a long time, and oh so many waxers, including me) re using circa 5x - however you need to make that call to go against the mfg instructions yourself. If not keen, no stress - then wax, re lube next 5x with ss drip or ufo drip, then re wax to reset any contamination that may have started to build and use a new link. No cleaning is needed before re wax using those lubricants. This however only solves your powerlock link chain, ekar links last i saw, in good ol campy style, cost basically half as much as the chain!! It could be they need to try to recoup some costs for including a novel of manual for every chain they sell having not quite realised yet that the internet is up and running and they can put instructions online instead of massive book.
If not happy to re use the ekar link, a lot, then you will want to move to either just ss drip, ufo drip, effetto 's new flower power wax - all very high dust resistance and super low wear. SS drip and ufo are visually cleaner, but relatively short treatment lifepsan. Flower power runs more black, but much longer treatment lifespan and new record for lowest wear rate for a drip lubricant. Use UFO clean for periodic maintenance to flush out dust contamination that will still build over time even for the best known lubricants as chain is operating in a harsh external environment, this is an extreme lubrication challenge - but it is easy, a UFO flush clean every approx 1000km - yeehaa. You wont match immersive waxing, but you will be in a very good next best ballpark. (refer chain maintenance guide - instructions tab).
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Perfect, thanks for this info I find it very useful. Yes I am already using the UFO drip and have the cleaner which I bought after analysing your website - it took me a while to figure out which was the best for my use - with the Ekar chain link costing 160DKK, as you say almost half the price of a full chain...
I had been wondering how frequently to lube and clean chain etc... with UFO, so feel more comfortable now with the advice you provided above.
Still the immersive waxing intrigues me so will contemplate further about the chain link thing, probably start on my road bike which uses the Sram 11 speed chain.
which one is the most quiet for indoor riding?
if you just want a dampening but very long lasting and low wear for indoor - try silca's synerg-E wet lube. You will probably only need to re apply that once a year :)
The only thing that kept me from starting immersive waxing is there's no reusable 12 speed quick link. Even if i open and close one a couple of times before replacing (against the manufacturer's recommendation), it seems quite wasteful.
yes it is not viable to use a new link every couple of times. Around 5 is the minimum. Check lastest vid re waxed life like a boss, the hybrid / combo approach is usually best for those not wanting to re use officially single use links - you get the vast majority of the benefits of immersive waxing every time, but without the pressure of re waxing every time.
Also - it looks like wippermann is finally out with a 12spd chain, and thus we should be able to get wippermann connex link in 12spd - we will see what chains that will be compatible with - but that will help some with some systems for sure as well as you can re use those links for the life of the chain.
So after you clean/wash your bike after a gravel ride. Do you have to rewax the chain?
It depends. If its dry - personally i am not one to water my bike - i use a spray to spray water + detergent onto microfiber cloth, and i wipe frame - easy as and im not flooding the bike with water for no reason. If you tend to water your bike, the rollers which are now exposed to air may oxidise if wetted and left.
So most times for me, no i just re wax as i need to for wax treatment lifespan, i only need to re wax after a ride if it has been a wet ride. If one takes a hose to bike after a dry ride including chain - maybe.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 alright, crock pot is ordered. I was using SSSCL. I'll keep it for maintenance
👍
Is there a list of these lubricants somewhere or a simple summery available? I can't determine what they are just by looking at the little bottles on a screen. I would prefer not to watch an hour long analysis. I just want to find a good wet lube for dry conditions. I watched your video on T-9 and was shocked to discover my go-to lube did not perform so well. You mentioned T-9 performing worse than the "top 5" wet lubes. I was hoping to find out what they are in this video, but all I can see are small bottles on the table. (My eyes are not so good.) I went to your website hoping to find a list from good to bad, but I found the spreadsheets confusing. Maybe I am too lazy to interpret the voluminous data, but I just can't tell quickly at a glance whether particular lubes are going from good to bad in a descending order.. If would be great if there was a little summary listing by name the "top five" wet lubes and the "top five" dry lubes. Obviously things are more complicated, but it would begin to point people in the right direction.
Hey there yes apologies we do currently have a lot of information and it is currently not as easy for some to parse through. I am trying to get to work on a lubircant choice matrix - but what seems simple on the surface has quite a number of factors still even just basing on type of riding and lubricant type preference + maintenance ability / preference. Overall the easiest way is just the main data table - the lower the wear, the better performing the lubricant. And then if one rides offroad predominantly dry conditions, they can look at how it performed in just block 2 - dry contamination test block. If they ride a lot in the wet, they can look at just block 4 result etc etc to select either a wax or a wet lubricant that performed highly (lowest wear number).
If you are a riding predominantly dry road for instance, then you can look mostly at block 1 wear result.
However - skipping past all that, the best wet lubricants tested to date - you really wont go wrong with any of these - Silca Synergetic, Silca Synerg-E, Rex Black Diamond, Rex Domestique, Revolubes. All are quite superior to T-9. T-9 can be a great product for some applications, but it was not developed for use on a bicycle chain, it has just been re bottled for that because they think hey its a good lubricant, im sure its fine for bicycle chains. At the end of the day they are selling it across as many applications as they can to make more money. And it is a fine lubricant, there are way worse, it is just not matching the best tested that have been developed specifically for the task. the other products recommended above will save you $$ in lower wear.
hope that helps!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you. I just put in an order for Silca Synergetic. When my current chains wear-out I will start waxing. I am glad I found your channel!
@@cinmay2000 me too! :)
I have been doing using paraffin wax in a pot on the stove for close to 8 years and I will never go back to any other method.
Adam, what is the reason you recommend not waxing KMC chains?
Kmc chains use a low friction coating that just seems to hinder wax / wax lubes / even some wet lubricants - from bonding. Often KMc chains just feel and sound very dry, very quickly. Ie they feel like they need re waxing again not long after you have set off on your ride, which is not that pleasurable, and so unless re waxed VERY often, a) it feels and sounds bad and b) comes with a wear rate penalty.
If i get 10 emails in a year re man this waxing is not what i hoped - 9 out of 10 the rider will be on a kmc chain, the other 1 out of 10 will be an error on initial prep. The reset - as per the reviews you see - have a magnificent time. I have field tested kmc myself, and yeah - just far from the silky smoothness one should have. Kmc do in general make very fast chains - but so do other brands that allow the wax to bond to the chain.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Appreciate the explanation. Been waxing for 6 or so months, both my road and gravel bike following your process. Love it.
I’ve been using Squirt on the road but also on gravel. I’ve reviewed some ZFC results.
Squirt is not so good on long wet gravel conditions.
Would Tru Tension All Weather be compatible, and vice versa, with Squirt, or should I re-prep the chain before changing lubricants like these two?
Yep squirt i would have liked to have seen better results in ZFC test, and i think they may have improved the formula since that test (i need to chat with them again). You can mix and match with other wax drip lubricants but it wont be as optimal with the likes of TTAW / ss drip / ufo drip etc. They use a much more refined wax base, squirt i believe (not 100% certain, but pretty certain) they use a slack wax base. Which is a big part of why squirt is about 1/3rd the price. So that base is a lot more oily, which is why squirt tends to gunk up much more quickly.
So nothing really bad will happen if you mix them, just overall it would probably be better to pick one. Ie if you went TTAW only, you have some easier cleaning options as that base will largely melt off with boiling water for an easy flush rinse post wet rides - not a perfect clean at all, but does an impressive bit just for water. Oilier waxes you dont really get that benefit, they dont melt off that well, and the oilier base left behind can hold more contamination - so squirt can be more involved clean with stronger solvents than some other options. It is still for many a good performance option for a very cheap price - but all options have their pros and cons. If one doesnt over apply squirt, and not often ride in wet and so dont often need to reset - then it can be a very good choice. If one over applies its a mess, and then its a tougher clean (and it can be hard work to clean off chain rings and cassette - over time it sets pretty hard on those), and it can be more work than others to reset after wet etc - these are the factors one should try to weigh up between one option and another
as always, the best lubricant for A cyclist is the one that a) has sufficient treatment lifespan for their ride and b) is the easiest for them to keep it low friction for their riding - something that is very individual with some only ever dry road, some often wet road, some offroad on hard pack, others on very dusty tracks, others out in the mud etc, others on snow and salted roads etc etc
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks for the full reply. Generally I’ll continue with Squirt for road, and try TTAW on the gravel bike, when the rides are often long duration over variable often dusty terrain and capricious weather conditions. For example this weekend’s 280km ride round Christchurch NZ, in what promises to be wet conditions. Squirt is likely not to last. And reapplication in wet conditions will be distinctly suboptimal.
When I next clean the chain I’ll look at wax immersion with Silca.
@@stefis6 yep TTAW for sure wont last that either, no drip lube really would save for maybe AB graphen lube, but that would need to be applied via immersive application on a fully stripped chain, and that application will cost you about $60 :). I would be packing some synergetic to top up (or other wet lube you like).
@@zerofrictioncycling992 just one more question. I ordered TT Tungsten All Weather. I got sent the cheaper TTAW not Tungsten. Obviously have raised the issue with the retailer. Is there a big difference in practice?
@@stefis6 ah bugger - alas i dont know without having tested the other product. It might be a relatively minor difference if the base product is the same and all it is missing is a bit of ws2 additive, or it could be pretty tangible. Definitely modifiers like ws2 can certainly improve treatment longevity, add good protection against wear when treatment is wearing thin, improves efficiency etc - if you paid the extra for it i would definitely want to get that - hope the retailer sorts asap!
what is the best bio friendly degreaser to use for cleaning wet lubricants?
ooh thats a bit tricky. 1) i havent had time to really test degreasers as its not main focus and the main focus has me super flat out. 2) what are you cleaning? Just note that if what you are cleaning off is not also 100% environmentally friendly, you still want to ensure product is properly disposed. For most wet lubricants - it can be enormously cheaper to use stuff from an auto store and avoid the bike tax - ie i use liquid moly as it leaves next to no film and is $10 a can, vs i can get a bike brand for $22 for the same thing for a much smaller can. There is silca bio degreaser which i have and use as well for fun when field testing lubricants - that is super enviro friendly, so it is good to use if the lubricant is also 100% enviro friendly.
To wrap - if it is for a clean where you remove chain and you have a volume of product to dispose post clean - dispose responsibly regardless of if degreaser is enviro friendly as what you have to dispose of will not be. In which case, save a ton of money and go with stuff from an auto store like liquid moly.
If it is on bike clean and any excess spray is just going onto an old towel, and you are more concerned re handling / fumes - then sure - go enviro friendly like silca bio degreaser if it fits budget - for quick better than nothing flush cleans on bike - i think they are claiming highest enviro credentials for a degreaser (it is direct release rated meaning it is fine to be poured straight into your drain / water ways - few degreasers can claim that).
@@zerofrictioncycling992 r
Thanks for the detailed reply I am using silca wet lube. What is liquid moly ? In Canada what would be equivalent brand.have a Amazon link to degreaser?
@@spartanbike2260 liquid moly is just an auto parts brand, they do a good brake cleaner - brake cleaners are great as they leave basically no film unlike degreasers. wouldnt have to be liquid moly if they dont stock in canada, just and auto brand brake cleaner typically going to be great but you may need to be careful on some paints - not sure. Liquid moly is fine on mine - i think most brake cleaners should be fine, they all seem to be more or less aerosolised acetone which is often used for metal prep to ensure perfect surface for moving to painting etc.
someone's asking what the greeny coloured cranks are on that Cervélo behind you! Anyone know?
Greeny coloured?! they are gold!!! Ingrid components crank - took ages to get, not sure if that has improved or is better in some countries (depending on importer) vs Aus. Just style watts for me in lieu of having many actual watts :)
Lovely! Finest gold, not finest green! 😂
Can I use different wax lube on top of another wax lube or I need to degrease everything to perfection once again? As example : Ive degreased new chain in turps and iso and other components with chain degreaser, used Smoove for 1000 km and now Im out of smoove and want to use another wax based lubricant such as squirt, dynamic potion speed wax, etc. To achieve best results should I degrease everything once again with turps/iso till its perfectly clean or its not needed ? Or it will be enough if i clean chain with clean rag and apply new lube on top?
If you are using wax lubricants of same / similar base type - ie paraffin base or slack wax base (which is just not very refined paraffin so a lot more oil), then no issues - ie squirt / smoove swap no probs, or even going to the much more refined silca ss drip etc. If it is a different wax base, ie going to effetto which is sunflower seed based, or s-wax which is carnuaba wax) then a clean before moving to a different base is best. Turps and degreases dont do too much to most waxes - it will help with oil content of lubricants like squirt, but most waxes themselves are unaffected, an easy and good clean is to use some UFO drivetrain clean, that is effective on waxes - you can spray on , let soak 10 mins, rinse boiling water, dry - apply new wax lubricant and you will have done a great quick maintenance job as well. Cleaning with a rag etc that is only cleaning outside, inside where it needs clean will be unaffected
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thank you!
@@zerofrictioncycling992related question: what about long events like randonneuring where I don't have X hours to wait for the drip wax to solidify? Could I start from a wax (either immersive or drip) and reapply with oil-based lube mid-event without issue? Or does it become an anything-is-better-than-nothing scenario?
@@Buttato99 Yes definitely - this is coming up a lot for ultra endurance events - if its dry moving to something like rex black diamond or silca synergetic as very long lasting wet lubricants is a great idea vs running a not set wax lube as then you are running more water than lubricant. If it is wet, synergetic hangs on better than most. If it is wet, running most wax drip lubricants does not go well as again, they are over 50% water as carrier, so are largely quickly washed off. Anything is better than nothing, but there are events for sure where moving to a wet lubricant is the best play by far, and just reset chain when home after the event
What would be your strategy for a long (700+km) bikepacking trip?
would vary a bit for weather - if dry it is pretty easy - start waxed then just top up each night with either silca ss drip / ufo drip / tru-tension tungsten all weather - or for a longer lasting treatment - smoove goes groovy for a treatment or two and still re wax ok without needing to clean.
If it is wet - you would start waxed still but you may want to move to synergetic after as wax drip lubes typically will not set properly on wet chains over night, and if not set wash off easily, and re applications in wet wont last as their carrier is water - they will wash off easily vs an oil - then just full reset when home before re waxing
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks!!! Starting with wax chain and taking synergetic is the best scenario then since in such a long distance weather can be unpredictable
Could you review the peatys range please?
yep maybe - i have them on my periphery to check out one of theirs one day - but yeah they just one mfg of oh so many, i havent had a chance for deeper look but on the surface i havent seen anything compelling - ie either really outlandish claims, or a likely high chance they could be an industry leading product - they appear to be just another of 1000 lubricants claiming basically the same thing as everyone else with nothing tangible to back the claims. but if i have missed something or you can help with a compelling reason they should be tested let me know
@@zerofrictioncycling992 they seem to be gaining a lot of popularity and are competitively priced in the uk, some reviewers rave about them as being one of the best lubes ever and others don't. I applied some and have done a few rides but to me they seem to attract a lot of grit, maybe I over lubed. One ride though my chain sounded very crunchy due to grit accumulation. One plus was the grit washed if super easy though which was good.
Any recommendations for people that use a bike as their main mode of transportation? Imagine you could only clean/lube the chain during the weekend. You have no worries about wear and tear or losing a Watt or two. You ride in all conditions. Which product(s) would you recommend?
It would depend a bit on how many kms, how often wet etc. Most commuters a wax chain will get through a commuting week just fine, and there is no easier way to clean a chain than just to re wax it on the weekend, and boom - it comes out looking brand new again. If its wet during week, then top up after wet ride with tru tension tungsten all weather for the next day, and with that lubricant you can just re wax to re set again on weekend.
If immersive waxing off the table, then cleanest lubricants are SIlca ss drip but you need to apply relatively frequently, Tru tension tungsten all weather, and ceramic speed ufo drip. You wont need to clean very often at all unless constantly wet. Smoove is also a good choice for more budget option but will be a bit like squirt especially if over apply, and smoove / squirt are not designed for frequent cleaning as tough clean + penetration issues post clean.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks for the reply! 👍
30:48 for a roadie like me, this picture looks like a disaster😄 Sand is everywhere, in the chain that looks creaky dry, in the bb bearings, in the shifter and rollers.
ha yep i can say a wet mtb race / cx race - there is some maintenance to do! Often bearings can be fine - but this can also depend a lot on the bearings and the maintenance. Many people will just race a wet mtb / cx - and hope things will be fine - and sometimes they are, often they are not. water can easily bring a lot of abrasive stuff past seals and into bearings. The level of sealing in hubs, bb's, pulleys etc varies a lot, as does grease fill level. if bearings have a good amount of grease fill, this forms a pretty good barrier behind seal lip. too low, that seal is not there and water and crap gets in easily.
if i have a known wet race coming up - if i get the time in the days leading up - i quickly re fill bearings with CS long life grease, and pulleys with TT grease. This adds A LOT of protection. Sometimes i dont get time to do so, but then it means time flush cleaning and re grease after. it is not uncommon for peeps post full mudder mtb or cx events to have to replace a bunch of bearings.
But..... chain wise - with immersive waxing, the job is pretty easy re resetting woohoo :)
Love the depth and detail as you have taken all the socially and historically accepted norms and broken them down to the actual facts.
As each episode has a large quantity of elements covered,it would be really helpful to be able to skip to the relevant section IE. Any CX or wet weather specific section are not relevant to me.
Thanks boyacki! And yes absolutely correct on that feedback - i am trying to get time to put together a lubricant choice matrix, when when i do get completed - i will do a run through on how that works, and how one can select their riding demographic to look at the top options for them & the pro's / cons of those top options. I have been promising this for a bit and so am disappointed i havent been able to complete v1 yet - its all been just pretty flat out and im quite behind a bunch of project stuff & detail reviews - but im slowly chipping away when i can - stay tuned - i will be aiming to for realz get done and release by about mid this year.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 it's very promising that you took the time to consider the comments so thank you! The contents, as with all your work, is extensively and thorough. I don't want to miss a word because it is fascinating and harrowing. I would love to know that timings of the graphs and charts as I constantly find myself reverting back every few sentences but again, thank you for the tremendous efforts!
A quick look at the data sheets of several cosmetic grade sunflower waxes suggests that the melting point is max 78 celcius... On that basis I would expect the effetto mariposa flower power drip wax to be removed by boiling water?
I'll feedback once tested.
Yes i need to test too - it is just a lot blacker more oily feel vs the very refined paraffin based wax lubes, and i have been too time stretched to try to properly test (holy batman running 3 test machines, 3 field tests and up to 100 pre pre chains a week + rest of zfc work - busy.....)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 work harder!!! Haha... Seriously though, really appreciate the work you've done, the likes of you and hambini are cleaning up the cycling industry. No more relying on BS reviews like "holds its speed well", we have data! So cheers mate!
I'm just sharing a thought 😉. Agree it does seem to be darker, might have a go at hot wax in the summer 🤔.
hi, have you tested the dynamic portion wax?
Hey Jack - yes, but i havent put up on data table yet as im still discussing results with Dynamic and Team Jumbo. TJV asked me to test dynamic potion which they are using - and Dynamic are definitely very genuinely passionate about their product, its performance and the R&D and tech behind it. Almost always in such cases, the ZFC testing goes extremely well. This is a very rare case where the ZFC testing for such a mfg has not gone well, and we dont yet have an answer re what might be behind it. Have tested immersive on ultegra chain, drip on on an ultegra chain, immersive on a ybn chain - all 3 results very similar and sadly very high wear, and with a quality wax base and modifiers - the only thing i can think of at the moment is that i received a bad batch, or the wax was cooked in transit from europe to me and damaged. I am not sure if they are willing to go ahead with testing another batch, it may remain a mystery. I am hesitant to publish the data without better understanding of what might be behind it, at this stage my plan is to wait for autumn and purchase another bottle for test 4.
@@zerofrictioncycling992
Thanks for the reply,
I also experienced a lot more wear with the dynamic wax compared to SSS chain blend.
@@jackmorrissey5318 very interesting. Yep for my 3 tests basically each one pretty dead on 40% of wear allowance by end of clean block one which is just really very high, and it is hard to have that much metal wearing that quickly without having some pretty big concerns on friction, and it is very odd as this is BY FAR the highest for a wax base lube (not counting wend wax or absoluteBlack graphenwax both of which really let the wax base community down). Something is up, it doesnt not appear to be like a muc-off situation with a mfg being very concerning with their testing and information, Dynamic seem very genuine - so i am hoping it is something as simple as the wax base was ruined in transit (which brings a different concern to the masses, but better than overall a bad product ) - some waxes dont like sustained high temps, which can happen in transit - so i will do my best to find a spot to re test from a different batch in a different season and keep my fingers crossed. If i was team jumbo however, i would definitely be tracking a lot of teams chains wear rates vs other team members on other proven products like mspeedwax / hot melt / ufo etc - there is no escaping that it takes friction to rapidly wear hardened steel....
@@zerofrictioncycling992
I also had high hopes for the dynamic wax.
Switched to it because I previously used muc off dry lube.
I tried it on several chains dura ace and sram force 11 spd chains.
Dura ace lasted only 3000km and force 1500km. Wouldn‘t recommend cheap sram chains they really wear out fast.
I concluded for myself to take the time for a full immersive wax, might be a bit tricky at first but in hindsight it‘s worth it.
@@jackmorrissey5318 yes that is very quick wear for a very premium product. More investigation needed there for sure when i can, and hopefully they are still talking to me..... But especially moving from muc-off dry, wow thats been a tough run :)
waxing is very easy - check out episode 17 which i think shows better than most other vids on immersive waxing out there just how easy it really is - too many vids make immersive waxing out to be so much more involved than it really is - and of course these days you can use in conjunction with products like silca ss drip, ufo drip or tru tension tungsten all weather, and so you dont need to re wax all the time you can wax, re lube with any one of those next 3 to 5 times, then re wax to reset any contamination that may have started to build. This gives the huge majority of the benefits of immersive waxing all the time, but takes the pressure off for those that may find immersive waxing ever re lube difficult.
I believe for regions with constantly high humidity, wax lubricants are not really suitable as the components are more prone to rusting. Also never use an oil based lube (wet lube) on a waxed chain as it will create a paste
what is this belief based on? You have extensive data from cyclists immersive waxing in high humidity? If one just re waxes normally - they are fine and dandy. We have tropics in northern Aus, and a large customer base in across all of australia including tropics - in 6 years i have not had a single customer from a high humidity area write in re issue with rusting. There is plenty enough protection unless one rides wax treatment into the ground and then just parks bike for ages outside. Even remotely normal use - there is no issue. I imagine your belief came from a forum on chain lubrication. Alas i havent seen a forum on chain lubrication yet that hasnt made me depressed about how much work i still have to do re getting proper information out more widely. So much of the input can be frankly bonkers and pulled out from strange places...
@@zerofrictioncycling992 well not extensive data but a few friends in my region (constantly 80-100% humidity) experience some form of rusting with waxed chains. We are near the equator with frequent showers
@@genotabby ah i see - i have in the key learnings guide ( i know lotso info so it hard for peeps to zero in on things specifically - working on it) - but for immersive waxing one does need to re wax post wet riding. Wet rides will abrade wax off the outside of roller first, and rollers can oxidise rapidly as are a high carbon steel for hardness. It is a good general rule as even though solid wax is most contamination resistant possible, dirty water from road will run right through chain, and contamination will be pressed into set wax under pedalling loads. so a re wax post wet ride to reset is great as it will have chain back to super low friction, and the re wax takes care of potential start of rusting. If this is not practical as riding a lot in the wet, immersive waxers should simply complement with silca ss drip / ufo drip / tru tension tungsten all weatjhre - so spend 20 secs to wipe chain when home and apply a quick coating of one of the above - repeat as needed until one has time to re wax and re set contamination. This path will still deliver VASTLY lower wear in such riding vs the typical approach of wet lube, were sure it wont rust if you ride and park bike for days, but unless you spend ages and lots of $$ all the time doing a solvent flush clean post wet ride, what you have in short order is a grinding paste masquerading as a lubricant. All the contamination being thrown at the chain is largely absorbed by wet lube, and there is only one outcome longer term for this.
So sorry i thought you just meant in general waxers in high humidity environments having chains / parts rusting - which just doesnt happen again unless treatment run thin and then just left for an extended period. Post rain - as covered in key learnings on wet weather riding, waxers should re wax or do the above, and overall enjoy a vastly better outcome, wet lube riders can have less oxidation worries, but they got way bigger other problems.
Hot paraffin wax with Teflon powder has been my chain lubricant for a long time. Works great.
if you have a good grade of paraffin (food grade / lab grade re purity) and it is not either too soft or too brittle - then ones DIY waxing will be great. Overall we do try to steer people away from adding teflon. Many of the top mfg have removed teflon as friction modifier - typically replaced with tungsten disulphide - due to the environmental impact especially re production of teflon. Some DIY blends i have seen online have been to include 50 grams of PTFE per pound of wax which is frankly bonkers, and just not great. Even the original UFO wax had 5 grams of PTFE - not 50 - people are pulling amounts out of their butt with zero tangible reason to back X amount vs y amount and why their recommended amount is what it is - it is just simply lets ensure we safely cover this base, and so pull a figure out of their arse that they think should definitely cover it.
If you must continue using PTFE - pls consider ensuring you use a small amount only.
This is the most persuasive argument I’ve ever heard for immersion waxing a MTB chain.
We want to send you a sample!
Hey lyndsay, i just followed link to you and saw a groovy vid on lubing roller skate bearings - you have stuff in cycling too? For any test request / info - email me at info@zerofrictioncycling.com.au and i can send the standard template info and costs first - but a quick heads up at the moment we are pretty solidly booked until approx september ish this year. Alas we cant just test samples sent in as testing is very labour intensive and i would be testing until i was about 1000 years old if just anyone could send stuff into test - the mfg really needs to be able to back their product performance hopefully with a) some good information on how they can back marketing claims at the moment and b) backing their product & claims with a booked in test because they have the confidence in the product performance.
Everybody who sees my drivetrain think its new. Then I tell them about immersive waxing.
Great info overall but not a fan of unedited rambling with occasional hesitation due to mistakes. This would make a better presentation if separate. Great info and effort.
i know i apologise max i really am going to try harder now to improve a lot - you tube is definitely not my natural skillset and i am always rushing as no time to properly prep - but i am focussing more on getting better - check out last vid - still not great but hopefully trending up :)
I can't believe MTB/Group manufacturers haven't developed suitable sealed drive trains with a drive shaft. Altogether eliminate the chain.
its very tough. A) much higher losses. B) Shifting? Gearbox - very high loss, and very hard to get to work - look at the evolution of pinion - which are not awesome, but again due to very high loss are mostly really best for E-mtb. Hub - similar plus a lot more sprung weight. Shaft / gearbox require specific frames vs mass market frames for derailleur etc etc.
I think / hope pinions latest gearbox + motor really sets the new standard and direction in this space (and watching what driven are doing) - but then - there is also cost. It will not compete with say GX axs. And so then, all one needs to do is ensure the right lubricant for a still very good time. My xx1 chain on training bike is 6 years and over 11,000km old - and that sees the winter training . A litte bit of knowledge helps hugely. People have trouble when put a crap lube on that is for sure.
ℹ️
I wonder how Adam would feel after doing a 6 - 8 hour lecture on TH-cam in one day . My lectures have gone this long and the students had their breaks while under tuition . I let them have refreshments during the time I am speaking when prompted with a time allocation . I go into deep detail in my lectures and spend up to 90 minutes fielding questions . I didn't cough or grunt during thes long teaching sessions .
it is likely that as this is your profession you are no doubt vastly more skilled than i. I never expected to be on YT, and am a complete hack at this.
*goes and starts wax pot*
(no I'm not joking)
Video starts at 4:10. 😂
🆚
It's pretty obvious this is all very road biased.
Personally I do a full clean of my bike after every single time I use it because I do trail riding, and it will get mud everywhere. It's a complete lie that no dirt, muck and grime will stick to the drivetrain especially when trail riding, and a waxed chain won't really like to be scrubbed down either. I have to get mud and grime off the drivetrain somehow, and doing a full waxjob everytime is just not going to happen.
I've tried wax for 2 years straight when I was an all year commuter rider, and yes, I rode my bike 365 days a year no matter what weather, even in the winter. I've tried wax in all the elements, got the t-shirt and all of that...
My conclusion is that it's ok the first day. The next day you notice a big difference in noiselevel when most of what was on the outside of the chain now has fallen off. If you go through any wet weather at this point, the noiselevels get quickly worse as well as the gearchanges also are impacted by this.
If that bike is left over night and you go for a ride the day after, that chain is now very dry as well as sand and grit will be in the drivetrain like anywhere else on your bike.
Wax is no magic. It has limitations like anything else you throw onto that chain. I feel it's sad how much hype it still get, and I just wonder what kind of perfect indoor facility do these people ride in all year round... Where I live they throw salt on the roads during winter, and try convincing me that the salt will just magically bounce off the drivetrain lol
Hey Af - i think you either had a poor wax option previously, and or have missed some key information re wax / vs wet and the wear & maintenance, and how wax can sound / feel different in the wet.
There is a reason why it is getting so much attention, and a reason why wax is dominating the league tables. Overall you just need a bit more understanding of what is happening and why.
If you are not immersive waxing, and you are riding in wet + mud - remember water will bring a lot of abrasive contamination deep into chain. And after that ride, unless you remove it (doesnt matter if wax or wet lube) - it is still going to be in there and causing a huge amount of wear. Maintenance of wax chain may be different vs wet, and may differ from one wax lube to another as their base wax may be completely different and respond / not respond to certain solvents or methods. I have a full maintenance guide on website.
If you get a chance - perhaps watch my video on does wax work in the wet, and some marginal gains episodes covering wax and wet - what the differences are re sound, but more importantly - wear rates.
No - wax drip is not like magic - which is more the territory of the top immersive waxes. Simply water will run right through chain, bringing abrasive contamination with it, which will be pressed into wax or wet lube coating. Post ride, unless you remove it - where does one think it goes? this is where immersive waxing is magic - there is no faster and easier way to reset chain back to amazing than just re wax it. You may think immersive waxing is far too much hassle - balance against how much hassle is it to solvent clean to reset chain post any wet ride, and that if you do not - you pay for that in extremely high friction and wear. And if on a good immersive wax, and it hasnt been wet - you can then just top up with a number of top wax drip lubricants for next circa 5 re lubes, so you dont need to re wax everytime.
Then the magic is in 3, or 5, to 10x less wear depending on what lube choice comparing too. Which on expensive parts - saves a fortune. And for racers - it is multiple watts every pedal stroke less friction.
Both of the above, as well as so much cleaner drivetrain, clean to handle in case of rear puncture and more - is why it gets so much attention, and why about 9 in 10 new high profile lube releases over last few years have been wax.
Hope that helps a bit, but all the information resources are there for you on zfc website / channels to help you understand better, and get you saving a ton of wear and money (and MUCH easier and less time consuming and costly maintenance)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Magic = manipulation = lies. Santa Claus is also all lies by the way...
Try to add all expenses regarding proper wax jobs and see if any less wear is worth it when we are talking money. I have no excessive wear on my drivetrain so is that magic as well... Damn, I just said magic is lies damnit. Nevermind.
video version of tl;dr