Great video. I’ve enjoyed many of the previous discussions on this topic but I like the way you chose to break them down and especially like how you approached the pros and cons and counters elements. Happy to be introduced to your channel.
Thanks so much. Glad to have you on board. I've been wanting to make that video for awhile but the opportunity to make it didn't come around until this media wars game. If you have suggestions for other videos feel free to post them here.
The key is to find out which of the other player is the loyalist. Even if you know they are in the room, that doesn't mean you can identify them in time.
Indeed. It's the prisoner's dilemma. If both sides cooperate, they both win. But if one side tries to cooperate and one side tries to take advantage of them, then the guy trying to cooperate gets screwed.
The funniest thing about this video is that you fell into your own trap judging BrotherBored's style of play: having now seen his videos on the Media Wars game, we know that he isn't at all a "Gunboat Tactician". He sent literal walls of text to the other players, just not to you. In reality, he was being a "Shapeshifter" with you, simulating a quiet and succinct player because he didn't trust you. He also described you as a player driven by emotion, or a "Loyalist" in your list, at least in that phase of the game when you were very very loyal to Russia. I don't mean to criticize though, great video! It's just hard to get a solid read on such experienced players, because probably they are all adapting their style of play, acting as Shapeshifters, every game they play.
Spot on assessment. It wasn't until late in the game that BB revealed to me through small essays that he was trying hard to be the strong silent type so people wouldn't identify and target him. Ironically, it was his silence that caused me to target him early. I think the higher level players are much more atuned to using particular roles at particular times. The Shapeshifter is in fact the person you need to be most worried about. But it can also backfire on you because people may feel you're not being genuine. I did indeed start as a loyalist and was trying to project that image. I was also trying hard to mirror the style of communication that I was getting from my opponents. If they were brief, so was I. I'm still undecided if that was effective, but in the end, I worked with every nation at some point. Thanks for your thoughts. I'm looking forward to seeing more of the other players' insights.
I have never played Diplomacy, but I recognise the types from the (very similar in the geopolitical aspect) games I used to play, for the most part that is. And also in real life most people fall in one of a limited set of characters. So games like Diplomacy have a lot to teach people, especially if you use a playstyle that is directly transferable to real life (architect, diplomat, etc). Personally, when I was a newb in the game I used to play, I was a diplomat, I soon changed to play an architect, puppet mastering the entire map to do my bidding, which was destroying those who refused to be my puppets, and blasted out very long and detailed proposals that ultimately made me the primary, and often sole benefactor. I was good at creating the situations where people depended on me, as against me it'd be worse for them than with me, and create such situations on the map that naturally forced everyone else in a state of conflict with someone else. Ideally permanently. The only characteristic of yours that I didn't do was backstabbing, because it wasn't as much of a requirement, and the cost of future business would be driven up. The others, like paranoia and too much communication, definitely applied. And once that became boring in the last games I played I turned into a warmonger, which isn't on your list, maybe Diplomacy isn't all that suited for that one. Once I was successful even with that, I stopped playing, because I had gotten everything out of it there was to gain, including some skills that are very valuable in real life.
This is a very thoughtful response. The Warmonger is a great idea. In the late game I think it does apply to Diplomacy. Once a player no longer needs Diplomacy and can just overwhelm the board, they could become the Warmonger. Diplomacy is well known to be the most backstabbing game out there. For casual and social games and gamers, that element doesn't play well. What's the game that you were thinking of applying this framework to? It sounds like one I'd enjoy. You're absolutely right that these techniques bleed into reality and who we are in the real world.
@@LegendaryTactics You probably heard of or maybe even played M2TW back in the day. It had a multiplayer campaign mode that very few people knew of, however. Basically to run a game you'd get as many people as you could (in my case, fill every faction = 19 players), and they'd take turns and send each other the saves. Each faction having a loading screen that was password protected. It wasn't bad, definitely had its strengths, but I can't recommend it now. The game is very old, and it did have some shortcomings. But those games could run very long if properly maintained, I know for a fact that some of the players also played Diplomacy, and depending on how the game was set up the same geopolitical struggle would happen. The battles (which TW also is famous for) are by most rounds usually set to always be resolved automatically. The game mode was popular enough though that some mods were created more or less specifically with this in mind. Obviously the most important distinctions were, that the maps (lots of them, including mods) are/were much more detailed, which, as a flipside, can also destract from what's really important, and unlike Diplomacy, where there's no luck and warfare only pertains to the commands you give to your armies and fleets, you could use choke points and other natural obstacles to stop multiple armies with just one, and if you were skillful, defeat superior forces. So with the good there was always and equal amount of bad, and like Diplomacy rounds can take a while. But in Diplomacy that's while everyone is actually doing their moves simultaneously, whereas in M2TW hotseats you'd wait for someone else to do their move. These days I've gotten older and prefer simplicity. Hotseats had too much stuff. As far as I'm aware there are still active (though somewhat small) communities playing these games in many countries even today though.
@@jonesjohnson6301 We are huge fans of the original Rome total war. Haven't played it forever, but that game was so much fun. I just loved building custom armies and then battling with friends online. So cool.
I almost felt like you were describing me, when you were talking about The Architect. But I am definitely a bit different when it comes to the social part. I think I may be something between The Architect and The Calculator. Damn, Diplomacy is an amazing game...
@@LegendaryTactics Yeah, that's very interesting. I think Diplomacy is one of my favourite games ever. I really like games where I can show my strategic and tactic genius XD
Saw this on Supremacy 1914 subreddit. Funny how this applies to a completely different game just because it gives complete freedom to players when it comes to diplomacy. We could use more players that focus on diplomacy though (wink wink)
Very cool. I've never played it, but it sounds like I need to give it a try. I just checked out the sub reddit. Looks like it's a game right up my alley.
@@LegendaryTactics Please do! put my sweat and tears into that game. I recommend joining the official discord server, the community is always willing to help with any questions you might have.
I immediately recognized my ally as number one, and the advice was really helpful, I never considered that they might be talking to everyone else as well
I'm glad it was helpful to you. I've been meaning to do the follow up to this video based on playstyles. There's just too much content to make about this game, and never enough time to do it.
Having never played Diplomacy, but speaking with experience in other "big" war games (like Twilight Imperium, Dune, etc.) I think I am a cross between the Calculator and the Architect. Great video!
I don't know anything about Diplomacy beyond it's reputation but I found this video remarkably relevant to my favourite board game, Twilight Imperium. I could recognize myself and my friends in a lot of the archetypes mentioned, and it's definitely going to change how I go about approaching deals and alliances in all types of games going forward!
You're right. These archetypes do fit a lot of other negotiation based games. Risk is another game that has a surprising amount of cross over with this.
@@LegendaryTactics but for me it also happens unconsciously. I make in depth strategies and share complex plans like the architect in the late game when scrambling to the finish line or holding out against a winning nation. I act duplicitously when it serves my interests. There isn't much consistency or deep thought.
@@emperorleroy6747 I'm interested in whether there's a pattern that could be used to maximize success. Ex - Start as the Loyalist, morph into the Architect, and finish as the Calculator.
Great video man! Just asking that next time u put the video in chapters just so it’s easier to navigate. If u don’t want to that’s okay too. Have a good omw
Thanks. I wonder if they didn't work in your browser. I just went to put them in and found that I had already done it. I'm working on a Loyalist video atm. 2 loyalists working together and then battling it out. Should be out next week sometime. I'll be sure to chapter it up too. =TIMESTAMPS= 0:00 - Introduction 1:09 - Other Internet Lists 1:53 - 8 Diplomacy Archetypes 2:57 - The Architect / The Puppet Master 4:55 - The Diplomat / The People Pleaser 6:47 - The Gunboat Tactician / The Quiet Type 7:47 - The Rookie / The Dissembler 8:57 - The Calculator / The Ruthless Stabber 10:13 - The Loyalist / The Devotee 11:23 - The Equivocator / The Irresolute 12:17 - The Shapeshifter / The Wildcard 13:45 - Media Wars Game
@@starhalv2427 The architect can have some real success in the game so long as you aren't too pushy. You definitely need to let other players chart their own course, but be there in the background subtly guiding what they see on the board. Try not to be the direct reason that another nation dies and you'll avoid future bad blood. Keep steepling your fingers and good luck applying your schemes.
I would like France as my prize, please. Just for a decade. Or if that is too much to ask, Sympathy for the Devil by The Rolling Stones playing in one of your upcoming videos.
Ooo, that's a great question. I haven't played against them, so I don't know for sure. But now you've got me thinking. Umble is likely a calculator. I would guess Tanya is the Diplomat. I wonder if Edi is the Architect?
@@LegendaryTactics I am definitely not experienced enough for my opinion to count for much but I definitely agree that Tanya is the Diplomat, and I like Edi as the architect.
Mbti correlates The Architect- xNFJ The Diplomat- xSFJ The Gunboat Tactician- IxTP The Rookie- ExFP The Calculator- xNTJ The Loyalist- xSTJ The Equivocator- IxFP The Shapeshifter- ExTP
I'm an INTP. I'm an Architect/Loyalist (guess you could call this coalition builder: I build a 2 or even 3 way alliance, and then push my allies into the fray and often will place fleets or armies to simultaneously block them from attacking me and leave them open to attack by me. In other words, I won't stab you (for a while), but you can't stab me, or I'll kill us both ^^ Kinda easy to do this as France with England and Italy, but it does limit your options. I find myself really hesitant to stab even though it'd be the best move
[This comment detailing my play style has been deleted in order to eliminate a possible disadvantage of an enemy player finding this comment and using it against me.]
I'm so glad you've come to the channel. Your comments are giving me a good chuckle. You've given too much away though. Based on the comments, I'd say you're the affable sort or the people person.
Thanks! Looking forward to playing against you sometime. Not looking forward to getting stabbed by you though. Can't believe you edged me out for best Russia in the tournament. Well done.
@@LegendaryTactics I'm in the midst of watching DiploStrats's 10 hour video on the media wars game mentioned in this video. Flash is definitely my favorite player there. Edit: Got to the part where Flash quoted The Princess Bride. Amazing.
Great video. I’ve enjoyed many of the previous discussions on this topic but I like the way you chose to break them down and especially like how you approached the pros and cons and counters elements. Happy to be introduced to your channel.
Thanks so much. Glad to have you on board. I've been wanting to make that video for awhile but the opportunity to make it didn't come around until this media wars game. If you have suggestions for other videos feel free to post them here.
A loyalist plus another loyalist is a game won, a loyalist plus anyone else can really screw the loyalist over.
Lol. So true. Loyalist and Puppet Master don't mix well.
That's true. But for some reason, one loyalist always seems to stab just a little prematurely and then they end up taking each other down.
The key is to find out which of the other player is the loyalist. Even if you know they are in the room, that doesn't mean you can identify them in time.
Indeed. It's the prisoner's dilemma. If both sides cooperate, they both win. But if one side tries to cooperate and one side tries to take advantage of them, then the guy trying to cooperate gets screwed.
The funniest thing about this video is that you fell into your own trap judging BrotherBored's style of play: having now seen his videos on the Media Wars game, we know that he isn't at all a "Gunboat Tactician". He sent literal walls of text to the other players, just not to you. In reality, he was being a "Shapeshifter" with you, simulating a quiet and succinct player because he didn't trust you. He also described you as a player driven by emotion, or a "Loyalist" in your list, at least in that phase of the game when you were very very loyal to Russia.
I don't mean to criticize though, great video! It's just hard to get a solid read on such experienced players, because probably they are all adapting their style of play, acting as Shapeshifters, every game they play.
Spot on assessment. It wasn't until late in the game that BB revealed to me through small essays that he was trying hard to be the strong silent type so people wouldn't identify and target him. Ironically, it was his silence that caused me to target him early.
I think the higher level players are much more atuned to using particular roles at particular times. The Shapeshifter is in fact the person you need to be most worried about. But it can also backfire on you because people may feel you're not being genuine.
I did indeed start as a loyalist and was trying to project that image. I was also trying hard to mirror the style of communication that I was getting from my opponents. If they were brief, so was I. I'm still undecided if that was effective, but in the end, I worked with every nation at some point.
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm looking forward to seeing more of the other players' insights.
It's crazy to see how diverse the community is! And also how you all know each other.
Archetypes are a deeply flawed model of human behavior, but really fun! ♊💞loved the meta at the end my shapeshifter friend!
Thanks for checking it out and taking the time to leave a comment.
Legendary Tactics is definitely a shape shifter...
You never know what you're going to get!
I have never played Diplomacy, but I recognise the types from the (very similar in the geopolitical aspect) games I used to play, for the most part that is. And also in real life most people fall in one of a limited set of characters. So games like Diplomacy have a lot to teach people, especially if you use a playstyle that is directly transferable to real life (architect, diplomat, etc).
Personally, when I was a newb in the game I used to play, I was a diplomat, I soon changed to play an architect, puppet mastering the entire map to do my bidding, which was destroying those who refused to be my puppets, and blasted out very long and detailed proposals that ultimately made me the primary, and often sole benefactor. I was good at creating the situations where people depended on me, as against me it'd be worse for them than with me, and create such situations on the map that naturally forced everyone else in a state of conflict with someone else. Ideally permanently. The only characteristic of yours that I didn't do was backstabbing, because it wasn't as much of a requirement, and the cost of future business would be driven up. The others, like paranoia and too much communication, definitely applied.
And once that became boring in the last games I played I turned into a warmonger, which isn't on your list, maybe Diplomacy isn't all that suited for that one. Once I was successful even with that, I stopped playing, because I had gotten everything out of it there was to gain, including some skills that are very valuable in real life.
This is a very thoughtful response. The Warmonger is a great idea. In the late game I think it does apply to Diplomacy. Once a player no longer needs Diplomacy and can just overwhelm the board, they could become the Warmonger. Diplomacy is well known to be the most backstabbing game out there. For casual and social games and gamers, that element doesn't play well. What's the game that you were thinking of applying this framework to? It sounds like one I'd enjoy. You're absolutely right that these techniques bleed into reality and who we are in the real world.
@@LegendaryTactics You probably heard of or maybe even played M2TW back in the day. It had a multiplayer campaign mode that very few people knew of, however. Basically to run a game you'd get as many people as you could (in my case, fill every faction = 19 players), and they'd take turns and send each other the saves. Each faction having a loading screen that was password protected.
It wasn't bad, definitely had its strengths, but I can't recommend it now. The game is very old, and it did have some shortcomings. But those games could run very long if properly maintained, I know for a fact that some of the players also played Diplomacy, and depending on how the game was set up the same geopolitical struggle would happen.
The battles (which TW also is famous for) are by most rounds usually set to always be resolved automatically.
The game mode was popular enough though that some mods were created more or less specifically with this in mind.
Obviously the most important distinctions were, that the maps (lots of them, including mods) are/were much more detailed, which, as a flipside, can also destract from what's really important, and unlike Diplomacy, where there's no luck and warfare only pertains to the commands you give to your armies and fleets, you could use choke points and other natural obstacles to stop multiple armies with just one, and if you were skillful, defeat superior forces.
So with the good there was always and equal amount of bad, and like Diplomacy rounds can take a while. But in Diplomacy that's while everyone is actually doing their moves simultaneously, whereas in M2TW hotseats you'd wait for someone else to do their move.
These days I've gotten older and prefer simplicity. Hotseats had too much stuff.
As far as I'm aware there are still active (though somewhat small) communities playing these games in many countries even today though.
@@jonesjohnson6301 We are huge fans of the original Rome total war. Haven't played it forever, but that game was so much fun. I just loved building custom armies and then battling with friends online. So cool.
I almost felt like you were describing me, when you were talking about The Architect. But I am definitely a bit different when it comes to the social part. I think I may be something between The Architect and The Calculator.
Damn, Diplomacy is an amazing game...
Awesome. It's interesting how this game develops particular definable play styles. It really is an impressive game. Thanks for watching.
@@LegendaryTactics Yeah, that's very interesting. I think Diplomacy is one of my favourite games ever. I really like games where I can show my strategic and tactic genius XD
@@dzidkapl I feel like we need a "muh ha ha ha" there with steepled fingers
Ah, and thanks for this cool video! Keep on making Diplomacy stuff, you're good at it!
@@LegendaryTactics Yeah we probably need that XD
Saw this on Supremacy 1914 subreddit. Funny how this applies to a completely different game just because it gives complete freedom to players when it comes to diplomacy. We could use more players that focus on diplomacy though (wink wink)
Very cool. I've never played it, but it sounds like I need to give it a try. I just checked out the sub reddit. Looks like it's a game right up my alley.
@@LegendaryTactics Please do! put my sweat and tears into that game. I recommend joining the official discord server, the community is always willing to help with any questions you might have.
@@Zolokin how much time do I need to commit when I play my first game? It looks fairly involved.
I immediately recognized my ally as number one, and the advice was really helpful, I never considered that they might be talking to everyone else as well
I'm glad it was helpful to you. I've been meaning to do the follow up to this video based on playstyles. There's just too much content to make about this game, and never enough time to do it.
I'm a loyalist Germany allied with architect Italy. Hopefully this doesn't end tragically. Hoping for the two way victory!
Working with an Architect is always a dangerous gamble.
I don't know whyy, but I like the positive titles better than the negative ones.
When they are your ally, the positive name helps to keep it that way. When they are your enemy, it's easier to think of them more villainously.
Having never played Diplomacy, but speaking with experience in other "big" war games (like Twilight Imperium, Dune, etc.) I think I am a cross between the Calculator and the Architect.
Great video!
I don't know anything about Diplomacy beyond it's reputation but I found this video remarkably relevant to my favourite board game, Twilight Imperium. I could recognize myself and my friends in a lot of the archetypes mentioned, and it's definitely going to change how I go about approaching deals and alliances in all types of games going forward!
You're right. These archetypes do fit a lot of other negotiation based games. Risk is another game that has a surprising amount of cross over with this.
Great taste in top games btw
Your comment expresses my feelings perfectly! Good to see some TI love.
I think I switch around between these styles of play depending on the game. And not in the way the Shapeshifter does it.
That takes some skill to stay in character and to be conscious that you're doing that. This level of the game generally seems to happen unconsciously.
@@LegendaryTactics but for me it also happens unconsciously. I make in depth strategies and share complex plans like the architect in the late game when scrambling to the finish line or holding out against a winning nation. I act duplicitously when it serves my interests. There isn't much consistency or deep thought.
@@emperorleroy6747 I'm interested in whether there's a pattern that could be used to maximize success. Ex - Start as the Loyalist, morph into the Architect, and finish as the Calculator.
Maybe that will be my next video!
@@LegendaryTactics cool!
Two of my favorite SPI games were War in the West/War in the East and War in the Pacific which i actually set up on my Ping Pong table.
Ha. I have a ping pong table for this purpose as well.
Great video man! Just asking that next time u put the video in chapters just so it’s easier to navigate. If u don’t want to that’s okay too. Have a good omw
Thanks. I wonder if they didn't work in your browser. I just went to put them in and found that I had already done it. I'm working on a Loyalist video atm. 2 loyalists working together and then battling it out. Should be out next week sometime. I'll be sure to chapter it up too. =TIMESTAMPS=
0:00 - Introduction
1:09 - Other Internet Lists
1:53 - 8 Diplomacy Archetypes
2:57 - The Architect / The Puppet Master
4:55 - The Diplomat / The People Pleaser
6:47 - The Gunboat Tactician / The Quiet Type
7:47 - The Rookie / The Dissembler
8:57 - The Calculator / The Ruthless Stabber
10:13 - The Loyalist / The Devotee
11:23 - The Equivocator / The Irresolute
12:17 - The Shapeshifter / The Wildcard
13:45 - Media Wars Game
I'm pretty sure, that I'm an architect.
And a little bit like a Rookie.
Lol. They're the most nefarious of all diplomacy players!
@@LegendaryTactics played three games. Yep, I'm the architect.
@@starhalv2427 The architect can have some real success in the game so long as you aren't too pushy. You definitely need to let other players chart their own course, but be there in the background subtly guiding what they see on the board. Try not to be the direct reason that another nation dies and you'll avoid future bad blood. Keep steepling your fingers and good luck applying your schemes.
11:30 "Midirect" should be "Misdirect"
Lol. Whoopsie! You're the first to catch that. Well done. Very perceptive. There won't be many typos in our videos, so you deserve a prize.
I would like France as my prize, please. Just for a decade. Or if that is too much to ask, Sympathy for the Devil by The Rolling Stones playing in one of your upcoming videos.
@@JermirCaesar I'll see if Mick will swing by the LT studio.
Diplomacy MBTI
Architect/Puppet Master ENTJ
Calculator/Ruthless Stabber INTJ
Gunboat Tactician/Quiet Type INTP
Shapeshifter/Wildcard ENTP
Diplomat/People Pleaser ENFJ
Equivocator/Irresolute INFJ
Rookie/Dissembler ENFP
Loyalist/Devotee INFP
Interesting correlation to personality types.
I'd love to hear your take on what archetype you think the various experts you've interviewed are!
Ooo, that's a great question. I haven't played against them, so I don't know for sure. But now you've got me thinking. Umble is likely a calculator. I would guess Tanya is the Diplomat. I wonder if Edi is the Architect?
@@LegendaryTactics I am definitely not experienced enough for my opinion to count for much but I definitely agree that Tanya is the Diplomat, and I like Edi as the architect.
Mbti correlates
The Architect- xNFJ
The Diplomat- xSFJ
The Gunboat Tactician- IxTP
The Rookie- ExFP
The Calculator- xNTJ
The Loyalist- xSTJ
The Equivocator- IxFP
The Shapeshifter- ExTP
Lol. The Myers Briggs Type Indicator? I had to look up what you meant. Interesting correlatives.
I am INTP (but the T is borderline F) but I play somewhere between a Diplomat and Loyalist
I'm an INTP. I'm an Architect/Loyalist (guess you could call this coalition builder: I build a 2 or even 3 way alliance, and then push my allies into the fray and often will place fleets or armies to simultaneously block them from attacking me and leave them open to attack by me.
In other words, I won't stab you (for a while), but you can't stab me, or I'll kill us both ^^
Kinda easy to do this as France with England and Italy, but it does limit your options. I find myself really hesitant to stab even though it'd be the best move
Oh God, I'm the Architect
.....he says through steepled fingers.
I'm beginning to suspect that there are a lot of architects that play this game.
I play with my family a lot and my sister is loyalist like me so it goes really well
Stabs must be particularly painful in your family then.
Any links to the articles mentioned at the beginning?
No problem. I put the links in the description.
Thank you!
If I wasn't the noob, I think I'd be number one.
[This comment detailing my play style has been deleted in order to eliminate a possible disadvantage of an enemy player finding this comment and using it against me.]
I'm so glad you've come to the channel. Your comments are giving me a good chuckle. You've given too much away though. Based on the comments, I'd say you're the affable sort or the people person.
@@LegendaryTactics Ahhh, but are you sure that is not a trick? Perhaps i am actually a shape shifter. You would never know
@@confused4971A true shapeshifter would never reveal that publicly. The misdirect attempt suggests I've hit the mark.
@@LegendaryTactics Darn, you got me!
Great video!
Thanks! Looking forward to playing against you sometime. Not looking forward to getting stabbed by you though. Can't believe you edged me out for best Russia in the tournament. Well done.
@@LegendaryTactics Thanks, I was very pleased with that performance.
Personally, the Calculator...
Loyalist + GBT + rookie
Nice combo. The rookie part will soon change.
Architect/Calculator/Loyalist here
Perhaps I should have added chameleon /changeling
I believe I have found my archetype
8
I am fake loyalist who tries to be architect but who do not quite succeed gathering information.
All these people commenting that they are architects is depressing, where are my fellow loyalists at? One day I will find an ally who won't betray me.
Flash here at LT is your guy then!!
@@LegendaryTactics I'm in the midst of watching DiploStrats's 10 hour video on the media wars game mentioned in this video. Flash is definitely my favorite player there.
Edit: Got to the part where Flash quoted The Princess Bride. Amazing.
Woo hoo! You're definitely my favourite viewer there!