The lion is a great lesson in growing up. Young lion was a real pos, old lion is wiser, kinder as knows that forgiveness and understanding for your fellow human is more important than loyalty
Azriel: MY LORD WHAT ARE THE FALLEN DOING BY YOUR SIDE?! Lion: Ah you know guys... i slept on it for a little while, and i think i might have overreacted a bit.
"Of all the Primarchs, save perhaps Mortarion, Lion El'Jonson stands apart. Partially this is due to his taciturn nature - a brooding silence hangs over him at all times. Yet there is something more... something buried beneath his noble exterior. Perhaps this is a result of his upbringing, growing to maturity alone in the monster-ridden forests of Caliban. Even at a council of war, the Lion moves like an apex predator. He is always watching, always planning, always hunting. He unnerves even his brothers." -Malcador
I think the Lion is, sadly, the son who ended up most like his father. Each primarch has a characteristic or ability of the Emperor, but the Lion was the one who saw the world the same way, the ends always justify the means, no matter how insane the means are.
I think they all encompass and embody some specific aspect/attribute he had, to the 9th degree obviously. Each of them embodying, to their upmost, their interpretation of what is perfection in their individual perspectives of what said perfection is. Problem is, they all thought their way was right, like their dad, and didn't or couldn't compromise their perspectives. I think that was why Emp wanted them to work together, to see that they all embody the different aspects of humanity, and they're all necessary for humanity to thrive. Its a shame that they never got to that point, due to their own hubrises and hurt egos.
Curze: Gets captured, escapes, burns 16 WEEKS of another Primarch's time playing cat and mouse in said Primarch's OWN SHIP Another common Night Lords W
From all I've heard of them, Curze and the Night Lords seem to live in this quantum superposition of 'absolutely the worst/huge losers' and 'shockingly successful at what they do, consistently getting one over on others in the setting'. One day I'll read the Night Lords books and get some firsthand experience there, but for now they remain an interesting curiosity.
@@vdate It’s the eternal Night Lords dilemma; either someone actually understands the Night Lords are going to do what they always do, and they’re easily outmanoeuvred; or someone underestimates the Night Lords’ commitment to the bit and they cause serious problems
@@Michael_Raymondthey went through the entire playbook of tricks one by one. Smart people picked up on this, and some could predict what they would do next. Then they reached the end of the playbook and decided to rewrite the entire thing with 5x more blood, 10x more psychological warfare, and 2x the amount of objects made from human skin
Great video. And a great idea for a series. I have to say though it's always hilarious to listen to these stories of the primarchs that were clearly written before the primarchs were decided to be gigantic freaks. Like, this story is great but Luther and the rest of the Knights are never upset that the Lion is a gigantic man double their heights, and cannot fit into the buildings or clothing that they have. And obviously that's because the giant primarch stuff was added later, probably with an eye to selling big impressive models. The Khan's backstory is similarly hilarious - did he have a special gigantic horse? Or did he just run into battle on foot, keeping up with the horse mounted tiny people around him? Giant primarchs remains one of the stupidest "modern" 40K background changes :D Anyway. You can tell that's a pet peeve of mine!
In second edition lore there was an extra large Space Wolf, called Ranulf, that was bigger than a regular marine and had a personalised suit of terminator armour. He was said to be almost as big as Leman Russ. I certainly agree however that primarchs being 2.5 time bigger than marines is just stupid.
They always had to be space marine sized, which wouldn’t solve the problems you outlined, but it is a bit silly (although “heroic” scale isn’t a true scale so never trust the models - they’re not even in scale with themselves!
From a tactical viewpoint, I would think smaller but more powerful would be better. Smaller target for incoming fire but Big E doesn't understand subtlety
In ancient art gods and other supernatural entities are often depicted as giants, not because they were supposed to be huge but as a sign of their importance. We know that the Emperor could appear as a giant golden warrior but also in other guises. The primarchs are literal demigods, his genetic offspring. They aren't entirely flesh and blood material beings, being more akin to the legendary figures of Greek and biblical myth. Perhaps they are *simultaneously* giants and something a bit more human sized. It might seem contradictory but we are dealing with fantastical, warp infused beings.
Ian, your lore videos are easily my favourite. I love the way you interpret and explain the lore and that you remember that the imperium are also bad guys
As somewhat interesting the Lion's return may be, I found the story surrounding 'The Risen', Zabriel etc. extremely compelling and interesting. Good writing!
Is there something to be said for a distinction between 'interesting' versus 'cool'? 30k DA were certainly cool, with their secretive, idealistic 'knights of the round table' attitude. But they got interesting when the cracks became visible. For me, the whole idea of bridging the warp with this 'forestwalk' ability, is quite interesting. Plus, like the Japanese Kinsugi-idea, there is something to be said for the Lion now re-uniting his army, becoming stronger than ever by joining all the broken pieces. Most certainly one of the more exciting recent GW publications, though it is tricky what they're going to do with this forestwalk-thing, since it does violate a number of warp-principles. (unless it is all an effect created by the watchers in the dark of course) @@ShadowGhost0117
The Angels stuff in Heresy is simultaneously some of the most gripping and some of the most tiresome storytelling, the Heresy in mini haha. His new book that reintroduced him Brookes is phenomenal though I can't wait for follow up
I really enjoyed this video, and look forward to more of this series. I was happy to see that "Horrible Heretics" is just a play on the title of Horrible Histories, and you avoided the low hanging fruit of 'The Dark Angels were traitors all along' and 'The Lion was waiting to see who'd win before choosing a side'.
The Lion was just that; a Lion. Savage, monstrous and ferocious. I really like how hard they leaned into his name; if you study lions you’ll see exactly how little the dominant male cares for the politicking of his Pride, but he will defend them with everything he has and will ensure his sons do well even if that means driving them out to welcome them back later when he can’t protect them anymore. The Risen are his lost sons, now trusted to do his role alongside him; protect the pride without caring for the politicking. But I also like that he’s learned as The Old Lion, wiser and more careful with the limited force he can now summon. Just like a Lion getting older, he has to lean more on those around him as his Legion- his strength- is no more. It’s a beautiful metaphor; but you need to remember that he is still fighting to protect and uphold the worse government ever devised by humanity. After all, “The Primarchs and Space Marines are the Heroes of the Imperium; which should tell us a lot about the Imperium.” (Mild edit to the quote, hope you don’t mind Ian.) Great series, I’ve welcomed my dad into Warhammer and I think he’ll treat this series like an audiobook while he’s mowing the lawn or something, so thanks for this chance to bond.
I absolutely love how humbled he was by his fight with Luther. After a good twn thousand year nap, he's getting close to being a good man- if you can forgive the massive xenophobia.
I really enjoyed this. One of the things the lion definitely inherited from the emperor is the latter's nigh-apocalyptic lack of emotional intelligence.
Hear me out; with the more optimistic direction of the wh40k universe for the Imperium (2 primarchs and the new primaries marines), here’s what I think could be the best direction for Games Workshop to take the story. Lion and Guilliman “meet up” and vow to make the Imperium stronger with a new direction, after reviewing the decline of the last 10,000 years. This involves a new leadership to guide the Imperium while the Emperor is incapacitated. Taking a queue from 10,000 years ago where they formed the Imperium Secundus, The Lion and Guilliman lion to forge this new leadership, using their skills as best they can to best serve the Imperium. They come to conclusion that the best course of action would be a Triumvirate; that way no one leader can take too much power. Also realising their own skills in generalship and tactics (The Lion), and organisational strength (Guilliman), they cast around to find the third member of their Triumvirate. Unfortunately, Sanguinius is very much dead. So, reviewing their other lost brothers and their skill sets, they decide what is missing is someone to defend the imperium. Guilliman can mould and organise it, The Lion can lead its vast offensive armies and strategy, so they just need someone to defend its borders. The obvious choice? Dorn. Also, he’s one of the few presumed not dead primarchs that isn’t in self imposed isolation, thus theoretically making him easier to find. But Dorn is dead, right? Actually, as the lore states, just his hand was found after he assaulted the black crusade ship. So, Guilliman and The Lion scout the galaxy for clues to their brother’s whereabouts. There’s lots that GW could fill in here, but at the end of the day, they find Dorn, probably in the warp somewhere, and he rejoins the Imperium as the third member of the Triumvirate. Thus Guilliman becomes the Steward, Lion becomes the Strategist and Dorn becomes the Stalwart. Or substitute some other catchy titles. Grand Warden, Master General, High Steward, etc.
Arbitor, you are one of the few lore channels that I have seen give topics like the Legions and Primarchs proper reviews and I appreciate it (especially for the Dark Angels since I play them for both 40k and 30k). Also just a suggestion, but it would be real nice if you could do a video talking about the Risen characters.
The Lion is that guy who was an angry young man, but when he becomes a grandfather, he mellows out and gets his shit together. I do always find it funny/odd that while pretty much every other Legion loved their Primarch, almost down to the genetic level, when they met them while The Lion is written as an arsehole no one really liked.
this format is fantastic! this was an entertaining bit of lore about a primarch who is pretty interesting, and now im jonesin for more developments on what he will be like in more 40k books
King Arthur wasn't quite as bright and shiny as his modern reputation suggests. For example, he orders all the noble children born on May Day to be brought to him, put on a boat and pushed out to sea without a crew to kill them all. At like, 4 weeks old. Mordred survives long enough to be rescued by a good man who raises him. There was a prophesy that a child born on May Day would bring ruin to the land, so he was like, "simple - drown all the May Day babies. Now, what's for dinner?" So you can probably just go straight to the Lion == Arthur comparison.
Great vid, Ian! As a nice reflection, after the 'Horrible Heretics' series, you should do a 'Hallowed Heroes' explaining the tragic/reluctant/misunderstood bad guys.
I really liked the video. The only gripes I have with it is the Russ incident being depicted based on old lore that was contradicted by Russ himself in his own primarch book. If this was a stylistic choice (as hinted by Ian mentioning the 'old Space Wolves tale') then its fitting - but in this case I would suggest making a small clarification at the beginning of the videos of this series that they are meant to be 'from a in lore' point of view and not a lore summary as for people who are new to it might get the wrong impression :)
All stories ever told by GW are by their own admission true, even if they contradict each other. It's a hand wavey way for GW to side step inconsistencies and also a way to show how the warp changes realspace and how malleable the truth is in the Imperium.
The Space Wolves ignored the Dark Angels orders in orbit not to fire upon enemy ships because there where Dark Angels boarders on them, the Space Wolves did anyway and killed them. Lion ordered Russ to stay way from the final citadel because there where already plans in motion, Russ ignored this once again due to a petty grudge. Also Lion disarmed Russ and thought the 'duel' was finished but Russ threw himself at Lion turning it into a brawl then after the day stopped to laugh and only then did Lion knock his lights out. Idk if these mistakes where intentional to portray the Dark Angels in a more negative light or what but there was a lot wrong in that part.
I'm glad I waited to create my own Chapter till after The Lion returned. I know some people don't like the changes made to his character and the plot of The Dark Angels, but it's been very good for me and my hobby. I hope we get models for The Risen, I'd love to bring them to life on the table.
Brother, this is really good stuff. I mean you do good work but this was a real cool "audio book" to listen to whilst doing my paperwork!! Looking forward to my boys, Fulgrim and Vulkan!
Further evidence that if everyone just wound their necks in and talked to each other the Imperium wouldn't be in the mess it is now. I look forward to Lion El launching a civil war as he thinks Poppa Smurf has taken over in The Big Es absence 🤣
Lion, I've always called him a "Savage Noble". While he is noble, his regality is the predator's cage, a beast he developed to be the apex in the Calibanite wilderness. but that's still not who he is, there are some rare moments where what's underneath is hinted at (Luther saying if you heard him sing, you will cry), or witnessed (star gazing philosophy pre-discovery), and what you are handed is an existentialist core, an artist who yearns for unfettered aspirations. (this is the one thing that Kairos could vaguely see when he licked the inside of Lion's skull, but so vague that Kairos couldn't pull on it to tempt Lion to Chaos). The Pharos device highlights this further: Roboute and Lion were trying to return to MaCragge, a need teleported them away but when the need was satisfied, they couldn't return. But since they could talk and look at the MaCragge side through the device, Roboute was informed that Curze had threatened his mother and Roboute was able to step through without hesitation or thought, Lion still could not. Roboute had to pull Lion through. The device is suspected to operate on intent, and if you do not display the intent of your values, then the device doesn't teleport you to where you want to go. Lion sequesters what he wants, instinctually, such that an ancient Necron device couldn't get a read on him, no matter how frustrated Lion got. Conceptually, this makes for rich inner tension, a deep core protected by the necessary savagery developed to be an apex predator, who then also adapted his defense with another layer when he became civilized as a knight of the Order and further as the Primarch of the Dark Angels, this places him in the Byronic Hero template, specific author and storyline notwithstanding. This culminates his perspective; Lion doesn't value order, he values the effectiveness that order can provide. When a new order is needed to be more effective, the old is discarded and the new is developed. For many primarchs, order is a part of them, Dorn, Lorgar, Roboute being clear examples, or they are honest with their order, Horus was warmaster due to ability to link different order like an ambassador, Russ for the aggregation of the thrill of individual combat in a culture that promoted it, or deliberately playing with perception of order, Alpharious Omegon. AFAIK, Lion is the only one who doesn't care for any specific order (abstract or specific) and only cares about enabling certain order if it begets greater effectiveness (this is a point of the star gazing philosophy scene) and is manifest in the Hexagrammaton. There are Primarchs who discard their order out of disillusionment, pain or pivotal moments, but for Lion, its just a question of evolution. This makes him unknowable and unpredictable to his peers and enemies alike, while simultaneously displaying order in everything he does and how the Dark Angels operate. finally, all of this culminates in "loyalty is its own reward". Lion values being loyal to the emperor, why? alignment of Lion's and Emperor's values. What this means is that The Lion will adhere to the Emperor's order out of recognition that it is the most effective way for humanity, the Emperor has to fall for the Lion to be "traitor", and this is why Kairos could never turn Lion. What the Lion values doing, is in alignment with what the Emperor would want to do, or what the Emperor's order would need the Lion to do. This is why the Lion violated the Edict of Nikaea and reinstated librarius - the old order would lead to their death so the Lion embraced a new, more effective, order. So long as Lion and Emperor are aligned, Lion doing what he wants to do, acting upon his values, is identical to doing the loyal action that is needed, hence "loyalty is its own reward". Now, this doesn't mean he can't mess up or go overboard, but it serves to state The Lions pathway; walking the tightrope between doing what is wanted, and doing what is needed, rendering him loyally defiant when what is wanted and needed aren't in alignment. Which again is handled in a Byronic Hero way.
Maybe will get lucky and he’ll chew out big blue for stealing his brother’s genetic material building and building a massive army of deviant marines in secret and just expecting everyone to go with it. The sorta thing he probably would have done himself had he not spent 10,000 years gaining a little perspective.
I really like your style of video and story telling. I get more interested in the stories than the “facts” at a point but don’t have time to read every black library novel
The Lion sounds like one of the worst primarchs. He couldn’t command the loyalty of his legion, disobeyed the emperor, was ostracised from Imperium Secundus due to incompetence, was late to every major battle during the heresy, and then such a weak warrior he lost a fight to Luther who was too weak to become an Astartes and destroyed his home planet in the process. Just an awful leader and character from start to finish.
The fact that all 20 (21?) embryos were still in stasis at the time of the scattering, means that they were all created at relatively the same time. These distinctions of first, and second for the Primarchs is quite pointless because none of them have had a life prior to any other being 'born'.
I would say The Lion is most like his father outta of his brother's, cold n ruthless. The only thing remains is the Legacy of Ash from foes of the Imperium.
Excellent video Arbitor! Not really what the video is about but just don't get why the loyalist primarchs has to become so "reasonable" when they're returned to the 41st millennium, feels to me like a antithesis to the setting.
So what you're saying is literally everything right up to the Heresy and even beyond basically screamed "the obvious favorite son who's going to turn traitor for the sake of his own pride and viciousness, and bring the whole thing crashing down, is actually The Lion," but that's far too obvious for 40K?
The Lion is a lesson we can all learn from. when all seems dark, when no hope is in sight, take a nap. seriously it'll do you wonders
I wake up more depressed.
Konrad didn't seem to follow such wise advice. Oh, poor Konrad, you tragic fuck!
New definition of 'powernap'
The lion is a great lesson in growing up. Young lion was a real pos, old lion is wiser, kinder as knows that forgiveness and understanding for your fellow human is more important than loyalty
@@brya9681 man, it really is astounding what a good nap can do!
Azriel: MY LORD WHAT ARE THE FALLEN DOING BY YOUR SIDE?!
Lion: Ah you know guys... i slept on it for a little while, and i think i might have overreacted a bit.
Absolutely brilliant comment😂
Lost for 10,000 years, wandering through portals of a realm that appeared as an alternate reality… sounds like a bank holiday in IKEA
That place will be my personal hell lol
Hahsah class one Tony!
I've worked for Ikea. It's easy to get out, just stop taking shortcuts and follow the dang arrows. ;)
So you're telling me that SCP-3008 had a positive effect on someone.
You think the Indomitous Crusade is bad. Just wait for the Ektörp Crusade as the Space Marines attempt to return a faulty shelving unit.
Good ol' Warcrimes Johnson.
"Of all the Primarchs, save perhaps Mortarion, Lion El'Jonson stands apart. Partially this is due to his taciturn nature - a brooding silence hangs over him at all times. Yet there is something more... something buried beneath his noble exterior. Perhaps this is a result of his upbringing, growing to maturity alone in the monster-ridden forests of Caliban. Even at a council of war, the Lion moves like an apex predator. He is always watching, always planning, always hunting. He unnerves even his brothers."
-Malcador
I think the Lion is, sadly, the son who ended up most like his father. Each primarch has a characteristic or ability of the Emperor, but the Lion was the one who saw the world the same way, the ends always justify the means, no matter how insane the means are.
Yeah, great take!
Hubris and ambition, are the aspects of the emperor he portrays. The most defining characteristics of the emperor and fitting for a first son.
No, that was Ferrus Mannus.
Kurze was pretty big on "Ends justify the means" too.
I think they all encompass and embody some specific aspect/attribute he had, to the 9th degree obviously. Each of them embodying, to their upmost, their interpretation of what is perfection in their individual perspectives of what said perfection is. Problem is, they all thought their way was right, like their dad, and didn't or couldn't compromise their perspectives. I think that was why Emp wanted them to work together, to see that they all embody the different aspects of humanity, and they're all necessary for humanity to thrive. Its a shame that they never got to that point, due to their own hubrises and hurt egos.
I deeply missed hearing "Unification Wars" from you. This should be a great series!
Curze: Gets captured, escapes, burns 16 WEEKS of another Primarch's time playing cat and mouse in said Primarch's OWN SHIP
Another common Night Lords W
From all I've heard of them, Curze and the Night Lords seem to live in this quantum superposition of 'absolutely the worst/huge losers' and 'shockingly successful at what they do, consistently getting one over on others in the setting'.
One day I'll read the Night Lords books and get some firsthand experience there, but for now they remain an interesting curiosity.
@@vdate It’s the eternal Night Lords dilemma; either someone actually understands the Night Lords are going to do what they always do, and they’re easily outmanoeuvred; or someone underestimates the Night Lords’ commitment to the bit and they cause serious problems
@@Michael_Raymondthey went through the entire playbook of tricks one by one. Smart people picked up on this, and some could predict what they would do next.
Then they reached the end of the playbook and decided to rewrite the entire thing with 5x more blood, 10x more psychological warfare, and 2x the amount of objects made from human skin
Great video. And a great idea for a series.
I have to say though it's always hilarious to listen to these stories of the primarchs that were clearly written before the primarchs were decided to be gigantic freaks. Like, this story is great but Luther and the rest of the Knights are never upset that the Lion is a gigantic man double their heights, and cannot fit into the buildings or clothing that they have. And obviously that's because the giant primarch stuff was added later, probably with an eye to selling big impressive models.
The Khan's backstory is similarly hilarious - did he have a special gigantic horse? Or did he just run into battle on foot, keeping up with the horse mounted tiny people around him?
Giant primarchs remains one of the stupidest "modern" 40K background changes :D
Anyway. You can tell that's a pet peeve of mine!
In second edition lore there was an extra large Space Wolf, called Ranulf, that was bigger than a regular marine and had a personalised suit of terminator armour. He was said to be almost as big as Leman Russ.
I certainly agree however that primarchs being 2.5 time bigger than marines is just stupid.
It’s also hilarious when you have marines using the Primarch’s equipment, like Lion’s helmet on Azrael.
They always had to be space marine sized, which wouldn’t solve the problems you outlined, but it is a bit silly (although “heroic” scale isn’t a true scale so never trust the models - they’re not even in scale with themselves!
From a tactical viewpoint, I would think smaller but more powerful would be better. Smaller target for incoming fire but Big E doesn't understand subtlety
In ancient art gods and other supernatural entities are often depicted as giants, not because they were supposed to be huge but as a sign of their importance.
We know that the Emperor could appear as a giant golden warrior but also in other guises. The primarchs are literal demigods, his genetic offspring. They aren't entirely flesh and blood material beings, being more akin to the legendary figures of Greek and biblical myth.
Perhaps they are *simultaneously* giants and something a bit more human sized. It might seem contradictory but we are dealing with fantastical, warp infused beings.
Ian, your lore videos are easily my favourite. I love the way you interpret and explain the lore and that you remember that the imperium are also bad guys
Horrible heretics? Will there be catchy songs that teach the lore?
He could ask Mira to help with that 😊
As somewhat interesting the Lion's return may be, I found the story surrounding 'The Risen', Zabriel etc. extremely compelling and interesting. Good writing!
Aside from Azrael, I prefer the Risen over the current 40k DA.
30k Dark Angels are so much more interesting.
Is there something to be said for a distinction between 'interesting' versus 'cool'? 30k DA were certainly cool, with their secretive, idealistic 'knights of the round table' attitude. But they got interesting when the cracks became visible. For me, the whole idea of bridging the warp with this 'forestwalk' ability, is quite interesting. Plus, like the Japanese Kinsugi-idea, there is something to be said for the Lion now re-uniting his army, becoming stronger than ever by joining all the broken pieces. Most certainly one of the more exciting recent GW publications, though it is tricky what they're going to do with this forestwalk-thing, since it does violate a number of warp-principles. (unless it is all an effect created by the watchers in the dark of course) @@ShadowGhost0117
The Angels stuff in Heresy is simultaneously some of the most gripping and some of the most tiresome storytelling, the Heresy in mini haha. His new book that reintroduced him Brookes is phenomenal though I can't wait for follow up
I liked the bit where he said "it's Orderin' time!", and then he Ordered all over the place.
You have no idea how excited I am for the Night Haunter video.
I really enjoyed this video, and look forward to more of this series. I was happy to see that "Horrible Heretics" is just a play on the title of Horrible Histories, and you avoided the low hanging fruit of 'The Dark Angels were traitors all along' and 'The Lion was waiting to see who'd win before choosing a side'.
Agreed, Ian steered off this heretical nonsense. Well done.
The Lion was just that; a Lion. Savage, monstrous and ferocious. I really like how hard they leaned into his name; if you study lions you’ll see exactly how little the dominant male cares for the politicking of his Pride, but he will defend them with everything he has and will ensure his sons do well even if that means driving them out to welcome them back later when he can’t protect them anymore.
The Risen are his lost sons, now trusted to do his role alongside him; protect the pride without caring for the politicking. But I also like that he’s learned as The Old Lion, wiser and more careful with the limited force he can now summon.
Just like a Lion getting older, he has to lean more on those around him as his Legion- his strength- is no more. It’s a beautiful metaphor; but you need to remember that he is still fighting to protect and uphold the worse government ever devised by humanity. After all, “The Primarchs and Space Marines are the Heroes of the Imperium; which should tell us a lot about the Imperium.”
(Mild edit to the quote, hope you don’t mind Ian.)
Great series, I’ve welcomed my dad into Warhammer and I think he’ll treat this series like an audiobook while he’s mowing the lawn or something, so thanks for this chance to bond.
The Emperor made The Lion, then The Emperor thought to himself, "I better tone this shit down!" and then he made the other Primarchs.
I absolutely love how humbled he was by his fight with Luther. After a good twn thousand year nap, he's getting close to being a good man- if you can forgive the massive xenophobia.
I think in the case of most Xenos races in 40k it’s somewhat understandable to fear the alien lol
It's stupid to not be xenophobic in 40k.
@@megaduck7965All the reasonable Xeno species got wiped out by the Imperium(mostly), so only the most violent remained.
"if you can forgive the massive xenophobia."
it's a feature, not a bug
Lion in the book is so xenophobic he gets more angry at the Fallen that use xenos tech to survive than the Fallen that preyed on Imperials as pirates.
Personally I see Lion as the emperors hubris and ambitions personified
I really enjoyed this. One of the things the lion definitely inherited from the emperor is the latter's nigh-apocalyptic lack of emotional intelligence.
Hear me out; with the more optimistic direction of the wh40k universe for the Imperium (2 primarchs and the new primaries marines), here’s what I think could be the best direction for Games Workshop to take the story.
Lion and Guilliman “meet up” and vow to make the Imperium stronger with a new direction, after reviewing the decline of the last 10,000 years.
This involves a new leadership to guide the Imperium while the Emperor is incapacitated.
Taking a queue from 10,000 years ago where
they formed the Imperium Secundus, The Lion and Guilliman lion to forge this new leadership, using their skills as best they can to best serve the Imperium.
They come to conclusion that the best course of action would be a Triumvirate; that way no one leader can take too much power.
Also realising their own skills in generalship and tactics (The Lion), and organisational strength (Guilliman), they cast around to find the third member of their Triumvirate.
Unfortunately, Sanguinius is very much dead.
So, reviewing their other lost brothers and their skill sets, they decide what is missing is someone to defend the imperium. Guilliman can mould and organise it, The Lion can lead its vast offensive armies and strategy, so they just need someone to defend its borders.
The obvious choice? Dorn. Also, he’s one of the few presumed not dead primarchs that isn’t in self imposed isolation, thus theoretically making him easier to find.
But Dorn is dead, right?
Actually, as the lore states, just his hand was found after he assaulted the black crusade ship.
So, Guilliman and The Lion scout the galaxy for clues to their brother’s whereabouts.
There’s lots that GW could fill in here, but at the end of the day, they find Dorn, probably in the warp somewhere, and he rejoins the Imperium as the third member of the Triumvirate.
Thus Guilliman becomes the Steward, Lion becomes the Strategist and Dorn becomes the Stalwart. Or substitute some other catchy titles. Grand Warden, Master General, High Steward, etc.
That was an excellent dive into the Lion's history, looking forward to seeing where this new series goes next!
Bought a Lion'el Jonson Mini two weeks ago. Put it on some stones on a base. He's taller now, I like a tall Jonson. Even showed it to the missus.
I love that Luther is like "I'll never be a real astartes" and then later apparently duels Lion n doesn't get insta murdered.
Arbitor, you are one of the few lore channels that I have seen give topics like the Legions and Primarchs proper reviews and I appreciate it (especially for the Dark Angels since I play them for both 40k and 30k).
Also just a suggestion, but it would be real nice if you could do a video talking about the Risen characters.
The Lion is that guy who was an angry young man, but when he becomes a grandfather, he mellows out and gets his shit together. I do always find it funny/odd that while pretty much every other Legion loved their Primarch, almost down to the genetic level, when they met them while The Lion is written as an arsehole no one really liked.
The lion chasing curze on his own ship for 16 weeks is hilarious
this format is fantastic! this was an entertaining bit of lore about a primarch who is pretty interesting, and now im jonesin for more developments on what he will be like in more 40k books
Seriously loved this one. Would love for this to go on forever, all the primarchs but also figures like Malcador, Draigo, or Farsight. Well done, sir.
There's no way to hear "Horrible Heretics" and NOT sing it to the tune of "horrible histories"! stroke of genius!
Really good video Ian, keep at it dude, you nake the most engaging Warhammer content out there!
What If King Arthur Were Evil; The Lion in a nutshell.
"What If King Arthur Had A Character Arc"
King Arthur wasn't quite as bright and shiny as his modern reputation suggests. For example, he orders all the noble children born on May Day to be brought to him, put on a boat and pushed out to sea without a crew to kill them all. At like, 4 weeks old. Mordred survives long enough to be rescued by a good man who raises him.
There was a prophesy that a child born on May Day would bring ruin to the land, so he was like, "simple - drown all the May Day babies. Now, what's for dinner?"
So you can probably just go straight to the Lion == Arthur comparison.
My first encounters with Lion and the DA was in the Lion Son of the Forest novel. It was pretty good! Made me a fan of the faction.
Angels of Death codex for me.
40k Behind the Bastards? Im here for it.
Ah Johnson, for me he is the base essence of a Primarch. A seeker of victory, regardless of cost or consequence.
*fulfil their duty regardless of the cost or consequences.
Great vid, Ian! As a nice reflection, after the 'Horrible Heretics' series, you should do a 'Hallowed Heroes' explaining the tragic/reluctant/misunderstood bad guys.
I really liked the video. The only gripes I have with it is the Russ incident being depicted based on old lore that was contradicted by Russ himself in his own primarch book. If this was a stylistic choice (as hinted by Ian mentioning the 'old Space Wolves tale') then its fitting - but in this case I would suggest making a small clarification at the beginning of the videos of this series that they are meant to be 'from a in lore' point of view and not a lore summary as for people who are new to it might get the wrong impression :)
All stories ever told by GW are by their own admission true, even if they contradict each other.
It's a hand wavey way for GW to side step inconsistencies and also a way to show how the warp changes realspace and how malleable the truth is in the Imperium.
I like how somehow all the primarchs display some level of neurodivergency.
The Lion is the greatest Primarch hands down. The hero the Imperium needs but does not want.
Great content and great presentation. Discovered this channel 2 hours ago. I'm hooked.
Excellent as ever Ian! Love the presentation and it made the first two DA HH novels story much more interesting than they managed!
Only just started, but top marks for the series name, would love to see HH-style illustrations for all the primarchs
I still expect the Lion to hug Guillemin the moment they are reunited, just to see look on Guillemin's face.
Great video, can't wait to see the story of Fulgrim!
the lion became a better version of his self after he woke up from his coma the lion that his son's need now more then ever
The start of a new long 30k series by Ian feels like Christmas came early 🎉
The Space Wolves ignored the Dark Angels orders in orbit not to fire upon enemy ships because there where Dark Angels boarders on them, the Space Wolves did anyway and killed them. Lion ordered Russ to stay way from the final citadel because there where already plans in motion, Russ ignored this once again due to a petty grudge. Also Lion disarmed Russ and thought the 'duel' was finished but Russ threw himself at Lion turning it into a brawl then after the day stopped to laugh and only then did Lion knock his lights out. Idk if these mistakes where intentional to portray the Dark Angels in a more negative light or what but there was a lot wrong in that part.
I think the story is meant to make both primarchs look bad, highlighting the flaws of both having too much honour and none
I'm glad I waited to create my own Chapter till after The Lion returned. I know some people don't like the changes made to his character and the plot of The Dark Angels, but it's been very good for me and my hobby. I hope we get models for The Risen, I'd love to bring them to life on the table.
I'm incredibly pissed that Cypher didn't factor into the Lions return. I seriously hope we get a little bit of conclusion on that plot thread
I got a tiny little bit of beef with Jonson after what he did to Nemiel ):
It came out of the blue...
Anyone know what books that Ian has screenshots of in all these videos? Assuming old heresy codex’s that are out of print?
Brother, this is really good stuff. I mean you do good work but this was a real cool "audio book" to listen to whilst doing my paperwork!! Looking forward to my boys, Fulgrim and Vulkan!
Gothic stories will not stop
And your host is a space cop
The far future is far less hectic
Welcome to HORRIBLE HERETICS.
Further evidence that if everyone just wound their necks in and talked to each other the Imperium wouldn't be in the mess it is now. I look forward to Lion El launching a civil war as he thinks Poppa Smurf has taken over in The Big Es absence 🤣
I REALLY enjoyed this
Dude, very great!
In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the Lion sleeps tonight.
I like their stories starting earlier than the emperor funding them
I like how he aged, not just cause he aged like fine wine but because it in a way shows how he changed/grew as a person.
stormwardens are secretly dark angels set in the calixis sector to guard from the rangda threat as a 40konspiracy
lion sounds like the big E here, and his little crusade heh
Lion, I've always called him a "Savage Noble".
While he is noble, his regality is the predator's cage, a beast he developed to be the apex in the Calibanite wilderness.
but that's still not who he is, there are some rare moments where what's underneath is hinted at (Luther saying if you heard him sing, you will cry), or witnessed (star gazing philosophy pre-discovery), and what you are handed is an existentialist core, an artist who yearns for unfettered aspirations. (this is the one thing that Kairos could vaguely see when he licked the inside of Lion's skull, but so vague that Kairos couldn't pull on it to tempt Lion to Chaos).
The Pharos device highlights this further: Roboute and Lion were trying to return to MaCragge, a need teleported them away but when the need was satisfied, they couldn't return. But since they could talk and look at the MaCragge side through the device, Roboute was informed that Curze had threatened his mother and Roboute was able to step through without hesitation or thought, Lion still could not. Roboute had to pull Lion through. The device is suspected to operate on intent, and if you do not display the intent of your values, then the device doesn't teleport you to where you want to go. Lion sequesters what he wants, instinctually, such that an ancient Necron device couldn't get a read on him, no matter how frustrated Lion got.
Conceptually, this makes for rich inner tension, a deep core protected by the necessary savagery developed to be an apex predator, who then also adapted his defense with another layer when he became civilized as a knight of the Order and further as the Primarch of the Dark Angels, this places him in the Byronic Hero template, specific author and storyline notwithstanding.
This culminates his perspective; Lion doesn't value order, he values the effectiveness that order can provide. When a new order is needed to be more effective, the old is discarded and the new is developed.
For many primarchs, order is a part of them, Dorn, Lorgar, Roboute being clear examples, or they are honest with their order, Horus was warmaster due to ability to link different order like an ambassador, Russ for the aggregation of the thrill of individual combat in a culture that promoted it, or deliberately playing with perception of order, Alpharious Omegon.
AFAIK, Lion is the only one who doesn't care for any specific order (abstract or specific) and only cares about enabling certain order if it begets greater effectiveness (this is a point of the star gazing philosophy scene) and is manifest in the Hexagrammaton. There are Primarchs who discard their order out of disillusionment, pain or pivotal moments, but for Lion, its just a question of evolution. This makes him unknowable and unpredictable to his peers and enemies alike, while simultaneously displaying order in everything he does and how the Dark Angels operate.
finally, all of this culminates in "loyalty is its own reward". Lion values being loyal to the emperor, why? alignment of Lion's and Emperor's values. What this means is that The Lion will adhere to the Emperor's order out of recognition that it is the most effective way for humanity, the Emperor has to fall for the Lion to be "traitor", and this is why Kairos could never turn Lion. What the Lion values doing, is in alignment with what the Emperor would want to do, or what the Emperor's order would need the Lion to do. This is why the Lion violated the Edict of Nikaea and reinstated librarius - the old order would lead to their death so the Lion embraced a new, more effective, order. So long as Lion and Emperor are aligned, Lion doing what he wants to do, acting upon his values, is identical to doing the loyal action that is needed, hence "loyalty is its own reward". Now, this doesn't mean he can't mess up or go overboard, but it serves to state The Lions pathway; walking the tightrope between doing what is wanted, and doing what is needed, rendering him loyally defiant when what is wanted and needed aren't in alignment.
Which again is handled in a Byronic Hero way.
Fantastic video, as always. I have a pretty silly question.. What is the name of the song you use as a theme?
Great character analysis!
Somehow... the Lion was awaken!
Thank you for a new video.
I honestly want in game rules for the army of hangers on that's been following him around since he woke up.
Maybe some of the new prototype Space Marine implants and Armour were not as efficient and reliable as first thought
Most of this stuff was news to me. I was surprised to learn of all the mistakes the Lion made during the Great Crusade.
Great series! Looking forward to part II!
Drinking Game: when Ian says Order, you drink…. You’ll be smashed after 2:31
Great video. Looking forward to seeing more.
Grest vidoe with a lot of new lore for me!
Maybe will get lucky and he’ll chew out big blue for stealing his brother’s genetic material building and building a massive army of deviant marines in secret and just expecting everyone to go with it.
The sorta thing he probably would have done himself had he not spent 10,000 years gaining a little perspective.
I really like your style of video and story telling. I get more interested in the stories than the “facts” at a point but don’t have time to read every black library novel
Time for a story or Mr Lion El'Johnson&Johnson!
The Lion sounds like one of the worst primarchs. He couldn’t command the loyalty of his legion, disobeyed the emperor, was ostracised from Imperium Secundus due to incompetence, was late to every major battle during the heresy, and then such a weak warrior he lost a fight to Luther who was too weak to become an Astartes and destroyed his home planet in the process. Just an awful leader and character from start to finish.
The fact that all 20 (21?) embryos were still in stasis at the time of the scattering, means that they were all created at relatively the same time. These distinctions of first, and second for the Primarchs is quite pointless because none of them have had a life prior to any other being 'born'.
10/10 choice with the horrible heretics title!
1:00 you have been delving so much into W40k lore, that now you start to pronounce 'wrong' even your own channel's name 😂
I shall not stop until.ive pronounced every word correctly
I would say The Lion is most like his father outta of his brother's, cold n ruthless. The only thing remains is the Legacy of Ash from foes of the Imperium.
Great Vid!
The Order from The Pale King Novel is also called... The Order.
Babe wake up new Abitor Ian video
Looking forward to more of these
How long until there’s a more direct reference to Tywin Lannister?
Well look, we all get grumpy when we need a nap 😪
So when your parents tell you a nap will do you good this is what they mean
Excellent video Arbitor!
Not really what the video is about but just don't get why the loyalist primarchs has to become so "reasonable" when they're returned to the 41st millennium, feels to me like a antithesis to the setting.
TL;DR: the Lion was very grumpy, but he’s much nicer now that he’s had a good nap. 😂
Still cant wait for the brothers union
they gave lion the 'i care about humans' shtick. what are they gona do with vulkan?
Great video 👍
Ar-biter?! I've been saying it wrongly. I stand corrected!
The Dark Angels are pretty cool but I only play Space Marine chapters that didn't betray the Emperor
Don't know why GW didn't name "the Order" the Order of Dark Angels
Good ol' Lionel.
Lion El'Johnson learned from his mistakes and is applying himself. What more do you want?
Great video thanks
So what you're saying is literally everything right up to the Heresy and even beyond basically screamed "the obvious favorite son who's going to turn traitor for the sake of his own pride and viciousness, and bring the whole thing crashing down, is actually The Lion," but that's far too obvious for 40K?