@@dylanbosley4139 And will not be getting Assist back, just like Liepard didn't have it in gen 8. Seriously, the only 3 bad ideas for GameFreak to remove in gen 8 were Return, Signal beam and pursuit, everything else was 100% justifiable.
Something tells me that if assist was in Scar/Vio then Assist wouldn't be able to call revival blessing. For as bad as they are at texturing trees and optimizing pop in, GF is weirdly good at catching this stuff.
Despite Assist not being in the game, Revival Blessing, in the code, has the quality that let's it be called by it. It was confirmed that it works. Whether it SHOULD be allowed is something else to talk about.
@@lucaslennan3356whatever tag that is used to tell if a move can or can not be called by assist, "yes" was probably the default value and since assist isn't coming back they probably didn't bother checking it Nat dex is on an awkward spot right now
@@enn1924 From what I heard, there were new moves that had "no" checked as well, so at least some thought was put into it on the developer's side. And Showdown in the end made the final decision on implementation. Nat Dex is always going to be in a weird place now that GF is removing stuff between games. Honestly I only see it as a matter of time before the whole thing goes under.
@@lucaslennan3356it is notable that therr are several times stuff under the hood has proven to be just flat out wrong when it finally gets released. Remember Shadow Tag Chandelure?
@@EnderPryde Yeah, they just never released it. But Nat Dex has the misfortune of having to assume how things WOULD be implemented, rather than just copying the game 1-to-1.
It's not even a dead bug. It's literally just a discarded exoskeleton, meaning that the game was being broken because Nincada no longer wanted its shell.
It really says something about Pokémon as a game series that the most competitively powerful things that are actively broken enough to get removed from the game tend to be not the hardest hitters, but the absurd niche gimmicks. Liepard will forever be remembered as the Pokémon that snapped competitive like a twig so hard that the devs nerfed the trick it used out of existence.
Honestly though, there's no world where I would have played against revive cats twice. It's such a mind-numbing strat, that I would just forfeit at team preview.
@@maridiancrest243balance and enjoyment aren't really equivalent here, like if revive cats had a feature that after 300 turns the cats player lost a percentage of the time as to make the strategy have 50% winrate it would still be absolutely horrid to play against
@@maridiancrest243 The reason it was made unaccessible and the tier was extinguished was not because it was unbalanced. It was because revive cats was such an overwhelming combination of "overcentralizing playstyle", "unfun to play against" and "unfun in the mirror matchup" that the playerbase almost entirely vanished, and the people administrating the tier abandoned it altogether. Revive Cats just killed NDAG in a way not even baton pass chains or tera shedija could ever hope to. It's a pity, I usually like AG as a tier, but not with revive cats in them, amd banning stuff from AG just goes against the tier's entire philosophy, so all that's left is its inglorious death. EDIT: if you think there was merit in cat hell, though, you can try to build the tier yourself. Nothing is stopping you, if you get a large enough group of miscreants to join you in the task you might eventually even manage to revive the ladder! EDIT 2: Also, about the "balance" thing, gen 8 NatDex AG was an incredibly unbalanced tier, with all kinds of bs running around (including me with my very gimmicky full BP team), but it didn't die, because it kept enough of an active playerbase and the tiering staff didn't abandon it. Revive cats goes beyond being unbalanced, and becomes unfun, it's that simple tbh
I do feel like they should have left the ladder up purely so that people complaining about bans could be told to go there and see for themselves how the game plays without them.
Look, as someone who played a lot of hackmons back when sturdy shed was allowed back in gen 6-7, i can testify to just how many moves there are that absolutely shat on it. Moves like the gen 7 box art signatures, stealth rocks, spiky shield and baneful bunker, rocky helmet, destiny bond, status, sand and hail, ect. All of those both destroy sturdy shed, as well as electric wonderguard with an air balloon shed. Hell, it even gains a weakness to gravity and thousand arrows in this case. Do i think it should be allowed in OU? Probably not, unless sand is everywhere. Even though is an easy to counter gimmic, many of the best solutions are in ubers (i mean, necrozma dusk mane literally hardcounters it, and its a tier king) It also ties up a very important and useful resource, and generally makes it very obvious what the shedinja player is doing. I feel like a lot of people have forgotten how to deal with the more gimmicky playstyles that used to be commonplace, as power creep has made the game centralize more around direct offence. If you build a team without any counter to Lando-T in OU, you would expect to get absolutely shit on, but countering it isn't exactly all that difficult either. Shedinja is just a far more extreme example of this, as it always has been. I personally think that it honestly would be fine in OU even, the only issue is that it makes everything more frustrating since the best available counters available (mold breaker pokemon, defensive status users, tyranitar, rock setters with phasing moves, _outlasting the bloody thing because it has shit offences_ , garchomp, ect, limit team creativity enough to deter people from the format.
Complete agree on this, just because something is easy to counter does not mean its fair. Having to require certain things to be 100% accounted for isn't often great.
I topped the ladder in National Dex AG with ReviveCats! Fun fact - Trubbish is not a Revive Cats counter. Most good variants ran max physDef Giratina, often Tera Steel, which can phaze out Trubbish with Roar or Dragon Tail. If the Trubbish can't switch, e.g. from Ingrain Baton Pass, you can Tera Ghost Copycat Curse with one Liepard and kill it. If all else fails, Ditto can copy Trubbish repeatedly and go for successive crits or PP stall with repeated Rest to go to 1000 turns.
Yeah, the trubbish bit was mainly to reference elobandit, and because I found the wii u joke funny (Though I didn't think through how much ditto could stop it, that really hurts any semblance of a niche that trubbish has against even 5 liepard teams).
ngl i loved the shedinja and revive cats meta because i brought out porygon2 to switch into shedinja and pp stall it once i traced wonder guard, and i had triage comfey that could boost up with calm mind and sweep revivecats with giga drain to avoid contact effects and big root to stall out ditto with healing, comfey was a pretty big threat once i removed all their steel types
Trace Pory2 is genius, because it also stops the shadow tag users that don't run fighting type moves as well. And Comfey having a niche in natdex AG is absolutely hilarious, I would use it on some of my teams that where weak to revivecats, and it was always fun sweeping those teams with a bundle of flowers.
I remember having to put specific counters on my Mono-Bug teams I made for Natdex AG, I had Entrainment Durant to remove Shedinja’s Wonder Guard (Which actually saved me from being swept by a Multiscale Dragonite at one point as well,) And a Crustle with Rock Blast to hit the Shed Tail Cyclizar variants before they could Tera.
I get that Nat Dex AG is the least fun metagame to play of all time, but why get rid of it? If I want to sit in my computer chair and watch paint dry for 2 hours just to finally run out of PP and Struggle to death, I should be allowed to do it. If people complain that they don’t want to watch paint dry, tell them to stop staring at the wall and play a more fun metagame.
It was also partially removed because of the increasing amount of generational gimmicks compounding. Things like that are very hard to develop and maintain. Every new Pokémon game adds a new gimmick now that would have to be squeezed into Nat Dex AG.
@@floofzykitty5072 I don’t understand this argument. Currently, Nat Dex OU allows Megas, Z-Moves, and Tera, which is all of the generational gimmicks. Based on your logic, wouldn’t Smogon consider dropping Nat Dex OU as well due to all of the compounding gimmicks?
Shedinja is one of my favorite pokemon of all time, when I saw people talking about it in AG I was so excited to finally use a pokemon I wish more people talked about. It never felt broken, It was a threat. it felt just like Zazcian, always something you think about when making a team. But never something to ban in it's teir. It was the Zazcain of AG. Then it was banned and I got real sad, one day maybe, hopefully Shedinja will become viable again... I still use him in OU though so-
I kinda think of air balloon tera shedinja like most Pure Hackmons wonder guard sets. Theyre really simple and easier to break through, especially against shedinja of all things, but if you arent ready for it it absolutely fcks you over
Yeah the main problem was BP to Mega Gengar - who by itself is probably the most powerful non legendary ever created (if using natdex rules). Trapper + encore is hella busted. Also fun thing, you can actually fit both shed and mega gengar on a revive cats team. They're not really as good as they are on non revivecats though due to movepool.
M-Gengar is prolly more broken than just about every legendary too lol. And yeah, it was a lotta fun to lose immidiently. because you clicked a fighting, normal or status move, and then got swept by a +6 Gengar. Yeah, thats the kicker with Revivecats, it took a lot of creativity out of teambuilding.
It's the same thing as Sturdy Shedinja. There are counters, sure, but those counters are highly specific and can easily be shut down, and with Shedinja, you either hard counter it or you lose.
Strangely enough, because of Shedinja being so prevalent, it made it easier to stop, as everyone was prepared to stop it, and the Pokemon that can counter it are good. This meant that it was easy for teams to fit pokemon that counter Shedinja. Though, I do have to argue it isn't a hard counter or loss. Most tera types have a weakness that your team can hit, and even if you have no true counter, there are many ways to defeat Shedinja. And even if you do have a counter, Shedinja has a lot of counterplay, such as shadow tag. Sturdy Shedinja however, has a lot less counters, so it does seem to fall more into the category of hard counter or lose.
@@blip_exists How is Shadow tag a counter? How is sturdy shedninja harder to remove than tera electric air balloon shedninja? They lose to the same stuff, don't they?
@@watery2211 Shadow tag is counterplay on the side of Shedinja, because it allows you to trap and remove your opponents pokemon that may be able to KO shedinja. And tera electric requires both an item slot and another pokemon to function, making it much weaker.
@@blip_exists It was prevalent so it didn't make it easier to stop... you were FORCED to stop it because you were almost certain to find one because it was prevalent. This also meant using one by proxy lets you influence the enemy team's options.
Moongiest beam isn’t highly specific it’s a coverage move your special attackers should be running anyway. You didn’t just want an ability ignoring move just for shedninja. You wanted to ignore unaware after boosting with geomancy/tailglow you wanted to ignore immunity abilities ect. You had ability ignoring tech because it was worth running wether or not shedninja was in the tier. If anything magic guard shedninja Is better because you are never gonna have sturdy shedninja go up against offense and do anything because of ability ignoring attacks. Having a special attacker at all or a physical steel type ( sun steel strike) isn’t highly specific most offense teams have such so the counterplay is quite common without even considering shedninja. You might screw over stall by getting a cheaky ko because of ignoring a leech seed or something if you ran magic guard though since they would assume it’s sturdy shedninja you don’t die to the passive damage then you can potentially get 2 kos with a fear set.
The problem, as I understand, is just Showdown not taking into account various mechanics that just shouldn't work together based on the mechanics provided. For the Divecats Revival Blessing example, Assist has never been able to call for Revival Blessing (because it's not in gen 9) but similarly has never been able to call Thief, Focus Punch, Phantom Force, Belch, Baneful Bunker, or Bestow, so allowing Assist to call Revival Blessing is clearly a mechanical incongruity that can just be coded out.
Actually, despite Assist not appearing in gen 9, there is STILL a flag in the game that determines whether moves are callable by assist or not. Revival Blessing is coded to be callable. Therefore it should be callable.
Divecats wasn't even Showdown exclusive, that was in the actual games. And also even though there is a flag, I do think that it will be changed, as it wasn't actually usable in the game. And while saying that it was in the game is a valid argument, I raise you the argument that the Hisuian pokemon that, while where in the code, were not added to the game until they were actually usable.
@@blip_exists the Dive part of Divecats, sure, it existed for a single generation, but my point is the AssistXRevival Blessing has literally never been available. (And even with Dive, it was patched out after one generation)
@@TeruretYou could argue that since Shedinja is the discarded husk, that it instead would act like wild Pokémon do and have a random type based on its typing (so, either Bug or Ghost)
Shedinja being soley limited to bug/ghost would go a long ways in balancing it, while also allowing it to still use tera quite effectively, as it can eliminate one of the types weaknesses.
@@skeletorthebest7204 wouldn't make sense, as Shedinja copies everything from the nincada, even down to contest stats (which no wild pokemon would have) in previous gens.
It's funny when i played nat dex ag messing around with my favorite guys it turns out lead Golisopod+slither wing held its ground pretty well against revive cats and cyclizar into shedinja, Was a very pleasant surprise
• I used to be a Balanced Hackmons casual. Played it solely since 6th to 9th grade. Sturdy Shedinja has since been banned, but I never really understood for personal reasons; I’m sure the votes, BH format board, and forum had their reasons, but I think “Sturdinja” is not that broken-quite balanced for similar and different reasons presented in this video. Sure it walls a lot of mons and you needed certain checks, it kept teams diversified in abilities and pokémon moves. • The strategy: Usually you would run Safety Goggles or Boots, Sturdy Shedinja, with Endeavor+Priority. Goggles is pretty bad in current meta since you would rather use it as a pivot mon; so Boots would be the best option knowing stage hazards is vital for singles format. This was one of the strongest BH pivots at the time, maybe still would be. End+Priority was a diversified strat because you wouldn’t always want to use E-speed-aqua jet, bullet punch, or shadow sneak were really good examples to make up for different type coverages of teams. • Utility strat: Aside from being nigh unkillable and best pivot. Some other strats were using Toxic/Wisp, Rapid Spin, SD Sweeper, Magic Guard (pretend to be Sturdinja), etc. These basic strats provided utility. • Shedtail Sturdinja? Shed Tail is banned in BH, so there would be no problems. I think that move is too broken for the meta anyway, rendering almost all status moves and even attacking moves useless. Substitute Baton Pass to Sturdinja would be a good play only half the time, so it’s not always consistent, because that would like a 2 turn move, depending which may not always be the best choice.
shed was fine until gen 8, when it got boots, because it removed the single biggest piece of counterplay against shedinja. there is other counterplay, but it was banned because of it essentially forcing stuff like moongeist beam to be run instead of astral barrage and being able to be immune to other kinds of counterplay (such as via protective pads) in short: its just too limiting in the teambuilder (source: i was top 20 on the gen 8 bh ladder when it was available)
While I get why shedninja was banned, I still miss using them. While I found the endeavor espeed strategy boring, it fit pretty well on stall teams with its ability to become unkillable. A protect move to scout, magic coat to bounce back status, a few pressure mons in the back to whittle down the three moves that ignore abilities, and you could position shedninja to be unkillable. Shedninja was such a fun Pokémon and I will always miss it
@@JW_937 i absolutely agree that shedinja is one of the most fun and unique pokemon to use in bh, and its legality (along with megas) is one of the big reasons why i love gen 7 bh substantially more than both gen 8 and 9
@@akappaa I think they could legitimately bring back Sturdinja if Heavy Duty Boots can’t be paired with Sturdy. One of the very few cases is Sleep Talk Comatose, where a specific combination had been banned. It is Balanced Hackmons after all, anything could be changed for our own conveniency (exaggeration and low key in spite of Smogon bans). Boots, got rid of its biggest weakness. I feel like we could do something very similar to Sleep Talk Comatose, where both can’t be on a pokémon simultaneously. At the same time it doesn’t seem logical to enforce such a ban because it’s specific to Shedinja, but I think we could make a pass for it just to have fun again. If anything keep it simple as just ban Boots on Shedinja; “Boots is banned on Shedinja.” • Sturdinja Goggles or Protective Pads: these are notably not even close to being as good as Boots. we all know stage hazards are vital in singles. So this would make Sturdinja more gimmicky or niche in the meta.
@@stealthgamer4620 in theory this is a fine idea, but in execution it sets a pretty bad precedent, as with all complex bans. they could have banned either comatose or sleep talk, but these both have individual niches which are not at all problematic, its just that when they are used in conjunction with another, it has game-breaking consequences. banning shed isnt an ideal solution, but there isnt really a better one unfortunately. honestly i would personally be fine with banning boots on shed, its possible they’ll retest it after the dlc drops. or better yet, they just dexit boots from the game so we can use sturdinja (and kill stall)
@@blip_exists thats what Im saying, I feel like if people will mald and say that its false AG if they ban the usage of having Assist and Revival Blessing in a team and/or make it so on showdown Assist CANNOT call revival blessing, that's better than having to remove an entire ladder that was fun to play for years or make it so any time you log on to play a quick game of showdown you risk running into a revivecats team and spend the next 2 hours if you aren't willing to forfeit
@@byzantine5761 I mean, to add to your argument, why the heck can I use revive cats when I couldn't even use Havalugg, both were in the game, it would be a fairly simple justification. And yeah, Black Kyreum stonks went up big time, putting that massive atk stat to work was a lot of fun
why is miraidon constantly mentioned in this video as a top 3 threat and not miraidon? is it because primal groudon, kyogre, and mega ray can get rid of sun, but couldn’t get rid of e terrain?
i just used a assist imprison toxic set to full counter most revive cat strats via struggle while making the pokemon easily counter able by the rest of me team in case of a ditto struggle match
The thing is, Revivecats can counter that, Dragon Tail Giratina is a very popular choice, and would be able to stop that. Thats one of the tricky things about Revivecats, it can always adapt, but it adapts to stay exactly the same.
Holy shit a mistborn reference I blesss your Family and all your friends Lmao My favourite book serious of all time, currently reading the way of kings, gotta love these bangers
Hear me out. Scale Shot + Swords Dance Haxorus. Everyone forgets my boy, i'm really sad. Baton pass user? immediatly swap to haxorus. Use Scale shot. It will break the subs and kill shedinja or deal a good amount of damage to whatever switches in (except a fairy, but let's continue) Mega gengar would be damaged by scale shot and with the speed boost would be K.O'd by earthquake next turn, same for gothielle. If the enemy swaps to a fairy, just swap haxorus out, and u're fine. And the best part is that SD haxorus isn't even there just to counter shedinja, he can be a pretty solid phys. sweeper and a wallbreaker if you give him substitute too. So even against teams without shedinja he would be a solid team member, even tho there are better options.
Main issue is, Haxorus is very outclassed by Black Kyreum and Zekrom, who also have a mold-breaker like ability, while also have legendary-level stats and two stab options.
@@blip_exists im not saying they arent stronger, the point is that haxorus can be used on OU, he has a multi hit attack that boosts his speed, so its very hard to switch in when he comes on field. And im aware kyurem can use multi hits too. Im just showing one good option that works well.
@@mattheusspoo Ah ok, I thought you where talking about Natdex AG, my bad. Yeah Haxourus can work in OU, some sets can 6-0 a lot of stall comps, so it can definetly do some work!
@@blip_exists at national dex AG there are plenty of options, i thought the video was about why tera shedinja should/could be unbanned. Im just pointing out that even at UU you can have a pokemon that can beat any variants of shedinja and still be useful and strong against other things.
@@blip_exists I mean, even at OU there are some options no one seems to point out like... phasing him out? A skarmory with whirlwind can tank a +6 shedinja hit and phase him out, and even set up rocks so he doesn't come back. sandstorm(tyranitar) will take care of the electric variant, and the steel/ground variants can be dealt with... i mean, super effective attacks, isn't hard to get one team with at least one fire, fighting or ground attack (for steel) or water, grass or ice(for ground), those are very common offensive typings. setting up rocks will also work as long as the strat isn't used as opener Some leads with taunt and a super effective move against shedinja will also stop him from coming in. So you can have any lead like aerodactyl, azelf, mew, even wall breaker gyarados would work taunting the lizard to not pass substitute and either follow with something super effective on shedinja if he comes in, or setting up rocks so he doesn't come in easily. Many walls can just pp stall him too, as a last resort, since even at +6 his damage isn't impressive. He's not overpowered or requires you to bring a useless pokemon on your team to counter, it's just what he always was, a gimmick.
Thousand Arrows has left the chat Gravity has left the chat Gastro acid has left the chat Sandstorm has left the chat Infiltrator has left the chat Stealth Rocks have left the chat Spikes have left the chat Trick has left the chat Wonder Room has left the chat
TBF, most of these don't help against the standard tera shedinja shenanigans, as it almost always runs non-tera electric and boots. But gastro and sandstorm are both good options
Shedinja’s that one meme from Red vs Blue where they’re talking about useless superpowers. Specifically, invisibility, but only while sleeping. “Think about it, you could take naps whenever you wanted and nobody would know. I’d be unstoppable!” “Actually, you’d be the opposite of unstoppable.” “Totally stoppable. Already stopped.” ((Joke being that Shedinja’s unkillable because they’re already a ghost))
considering assist never existed at the same time as revival blessing, we never saw gamefreak programming assist to not pull off revival blessing, which I'm 100% sure they would not had let that skip by. so Nationaldex just let assist call in any of the new moves. National dex was the real cause the tier dissapeared
Well no, its because there was code within S/V that allowed assist to call Revival Blessing. Which isn't a perfect argument, but its also not a terrible one.
@@blip_existsBut all non-boss moves are allowed by default. It’s like saying that Gamefreak wants to make Rayquaza look like Pikachu in Gen 9 when it’s just because they never bothered to put the 3D model in yet.
@@dropthehatantonycraft7516 I mean, the pikachu's are still allowed in pure hackmons. However, I do agree that assist shouldn't call Revival Blessing, I was simply explaining why it did.
Tera electric shedinja when literally any mon with mold breaker/gastro acid/thousnand arrows/anything that ignores abilities comes in: *dies from cringe*
Tinkaton is one of the most popular Mold Breakers of gen-9 to the point of even memetic popularity and Shedinja _still_ left people wondering how to stop it? Also, why tf can Assist call Recarm _(Revival Blessing)_ when the move was already given a pseudo-custom 1 ammo limit _and_ remakes can be a cue to unban old moves such as Tail Glow for Shining Pearl? I bet even if they banned all bracelet powers from National Dex, AG was on the way out.
Tinkaton seems like it would work, until Shed baton passes into Shadow Tag Mega Gengar, and OHKO's Tinkaton. There are better mold breaker pokemon, and there was counterplay to moldbreaker. I do agree with you its a bit wacky that assist can call revival blessing, but its because there was a flag in the code to allow it to. While assist isn't usable, it is in the code, and that was taken as reason enough.
I don't understand why ANYTHING GOES is taking down the ladder though. It's literally called ANYTHING GOES. That includes being a randomized format with/without skill or pokemon of various kinds. I also don't understand why they're falling to the complaints of idiots. People are complaining about a pokemon existing in a format called ANYTHING GOES? Do they not understand the point of the format? Why humor these people? Just let them complain and be dumb.
The threat of turn 1 cyclizar shed tail into shedinja bypasses all hazards. Cyclizar is really fast so you'd need to use like a scarf fairy type to try and ohko it, but at that point, they can just not lead with cyclizar, while you're pretty much forced to to it to not instantly lose the game, which is very easily exploitable. U-turning into cyclizar later in the game guarantees the shed tail basically. Hell you might even run magic bounce to deny hazards entirely. Since the 2 are together so often, you're guaranteed to have consistent hazard removal on the team. Tera electric Shedinja also bypasses everything but stealth rock due to air balloon so you'd need specifically rocks
Meowstic was also usable, meaning teams would have 3 team member, which was the amount many Revivecats teams ran anyway. And in natdex ag, you could have any number of liepard.
I didn't really forget Zygarde, it just wasn't as important to the conversation. Zygarde counters one certain combo, whereas stuff like moldbreaker could counter every shedinja set.
Not gonna lie, NatDex AG was kinda my last hanging shred of interest in this franchise. Between arbitrary roster culling, arbitrary movepool culling, and rules upon rules upon bans upon rules all sanitizing and pidgeonholeing the game on every level, having a chaotic format where I could beat a tryhard team of legendaries with 6 ludicolo while grooving out to miror b's theme was great. I get why they axed it, all the top ladder teams were just gimmicks vs gimmicks that went on forever, but then... I dunno, remove the ladder? If the crux of the issue boiled down to "i-its not viable for competitive!" Then don't make it, the messy format where 'anything goes', competitive in the same light as the strictly regulated normal ones, make it a solely "for fun" format for breaking the game and playing around with whatever team and setup you want. Maybe I'm in the minority with that mindset, but I have to imagine removing the ladder would have been a better option than just outright removing the format (I know its not gonegone, but few to no one's going to want to seek people out manually to play it).
I mean, if you implement too many complex bans, Pokemon Showdown would be more and more just a fangame, instead of a battle simulator. And while many Pokemon have been banned because of Tera, Tera is an interesting enough mechanic that it has been decided to be kept in Pokemon Showdown.
@@blip_exists You see this a lot in Dungeons and Dragons and Yugioh, where adding new options completely and utterly breaks things because of how they interact with something else.
I... don't quite understand why the assumption couldn't be made that considering the move Assist and the move Revival Blessing don't exist in the same game. Why not assume Assist wouldn't be able to call Revival Blessing? Considering they had changed Assist to no longer call moves it once did that ended up being broken
The argument made is that assist is set to call revival blessing within the games code, but I personally think its kinda dumb, as assist isn't usable in S/V.
@@blip_exists Why call it dumb? The only other option is to have an opinion or look at things that are not the same. Your options are literally no evidence or unused code.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Well, I personally think its dumb because: 1. Unused code has been incorrect before. Shadow Tag Chandelure was in the code for Black and White, but was eventually changed. 2. Other unused code (The Hisuian Pokemon) where not usable despite being in the code (While they are now usable, they where not always).
Unused code wasn't "wrong" in the Chandelure case, it was just replaced prior to being released. It was still correct (in the sense of being the truth of reality, even if it was a bug, which Showdown always attempts to simulate) at the time it existed. If Assist's behavior is changed in a patch in a future version of SV, that will be immediately reflected to ND formats on Showdown. Hisuian mons are different because they had never been available in Sword/Shield or prior and were hence unreleased rather than dexited content, which is outside the scope of what ND includes. They weren't a balance ban, like what is being mooted in these comments, which wouldn't make sense in an AG metagame.
Don’t really get why ND AG was made challenge only. Why not just remove the ladder but leave matchmaking alone? Now if you wanna play ND AG you have to hope someone in chat is willing to play, and if there isn’t you’re just out of luck
I gotta ask, cause it's been on my mind for a while: What are all these tiers for? I don't play Showdown, so I fail to understand some of these "bans" and formats. I'd like to be able to understand it a little better.
So, theres OU, and thats the main tier, that where basically every non box art legendary goes. However, if a pokemon is too good for OU, it gets banned to Ubers, so Ubers tends to be made up of mainly legendary pokemon, but pokemon like Excadrill have been banned to there in some games as well. There are other tiers (UU, RU and such) that are below OU, and basically, if a Pokemon isn't used in OU, it becomes usable in UU, and if it isn't used in UU, you can use it in RU, and so on. If a Pokemon starts being used in a higher tier, it will move up to that tier, being unusable in every tier below it. However, if a pokemon is in a tier that is "lower" than another tier, say a Pokemon is in UU, you can use that Pokemon in higher tiers as well. These stats update every 3 months I think? However, if a Pokemon is simply too strong, it can be banned from a tier, without needing the proper usage. Some strategies are also banned, because they are uncompetitive, such as baton pass. As opposed to the other tiers, pokemon do not rise from OU to Ubers through usage, but through bans only. Hence how Great Tusk can get 50% usage. Ubers started off as a banlist,but with the addition of Mega Rayquaza, the tier Anything Goes become more of the banlist. In anything goes, every strategy except Funbro is allowed. Thats how the tiers work. And for formats, Standard Play is the current generation OU, so only Pokemon that are in Scarlet and Violet. National Dex is a tier where all pokemon and many different gimmicks are allowed. National Dex anything goes is a tier and format where you can use every pokemon, and every strategy. Hope that helps!
@blip_exists That leaves me with one other question then, and this may be dumb to ask, but how does this correspond to officially held vgc events from the Pokemon Company? Do any of these tiers and strategy bans have any relevance to the official vgc? Has Showdown influenced the official vgc in some ways, if a bit? Or is Showdown a 100% separate entity with no bearing on it? Example: If Divecats and Baton Pass is a banned strategy in Showdown, would it also be banned in the official vgc? Or would the official vgc basically be the "anything goes" tier mentioned.
@@invertedghostgames9899 Not a dumb question at all! Pokemon Showdown is completely distinct from the VGC events held by The Pokemon Company. Showdown is 100% separate. VGC tends to have its own restrictions, as those typically include restricting glitches, and restricting certain pokemon (often legendarys or pokemon not in a regional pokedex). However, Pokemon games are often balanced around doubles instead of singles, so VGC tends to be a bit less broken, and less needing of bans.
ok i've ran calcs for a mega lucario bullet punch and it's ohko for only 252 hp but needs 2 hits for 252 def unless lucario has a nature that boosts attack then it's 56.3% chance to ohko, but running vacumn wave has a better chance of OHKOing liepard since i forgot that revival blessing sets the revived pokemon to 50% i found out it guarantees OHKO
@@blip_exists I also beleive a coil rest tera fairy espeed zygarde set can work (has to be your last mon because of roar giratina), but if they properly predict you you will get pp stalled out of espeeds and lose. because of tera fairy you win 1v1 matchups with ditto if you pack dragon claw or a similar dragon move. this is ALSO gambling the ditto isn't tera fairy XD.
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Assist try not to be broken challenge impossible
More like smear glue try not to be too broken lol
@@RubTheCat smear glue had me fucking rolling thank you
No wonder why gf decided to get rid off it, is a dumb idea that is only used on broken set ups like that
Umm, Meowstic is coming in the DLC
@@dylanbosley4139 And will not be getting Assist back, just like Liepard didn't have it in gen 8. Seriously, the only 3 bad ideas for GameFreak to remove in gen 8 were Return, Signal beam and pursuit, everything else was 100% justifiable.
Something tells me that if assist was in Scar/Vio then Assist wouldn't be able to call revival blessing. For as bad as they are at texturing trees and optimizing pop in, GF is weirdly good at catching this stuff.
Despite Assist not being in the game, Revival Blessing, in the code, has the quality that let's it be called by it.
It was confirmed that it works.
Whether it SHOULD be allowed is something else to talk about.
@@lucaslennan3356whatever tag that is used to tell if a move can or can not be called by assist, "yes" was probably the default value and since assist isn't coming back they probably didn't bother checking it
Nat dex is on an awkward spot right now
@@enn1924 From what I heard, there were new moves that had "no" checked as well, so at least some thought was put into it on the developer's side. And Showdown in the end made the final decision on implementation. Nat Dex is always going to be in a weird place now that GF is removing stuff between games. Honestly I only see it as a matter of time before the whole thing goes under.
@@lucaslennan3356it is notable that therr are several times stuff under the hood has proven to be just flat out wrong when it finally gets released.
Remember Shadow Tag Chandelure?
@@EnderPryde Yeah, they just never released it. But Nat Dex has the misfortune of having to assume how things WOULD be implemented, rather than just copying the game 1-to-1.
You'd think Natdex AG would be throned by giga powerful legends but no it were some cats and a dead insect
because legendaries get playtested enough to not really be anything more complex then stat bricks with a decent to good movepool.
temp6t: i'm proud of you, son
It's not even a dead bug. It's literally just a discarded exoskeleton, meaning that the game was being broken because Nincada no longer wanted its shell.
Shedinja: prepare for trouble!
Liepard: and make it double!
Miraidon thats right!
@@blip_exists I like how the literal Legendary takes the place of Meowth instead of the literal cat (Liepard) lol! XD
Everyone always forgets my boy Machamp
@tabbender1232 Fissure+No Guard Machamp was pretty easy to counter to be honest. Plus it wasn’t banned, OHKO moves were.
Imagine being so stupidly broken, that a tier meant for stupidly broken mons gets removed because you are too stupidly broken.
Gen 8 Pure Hackmons energy.
😊😊
No. Its just Smogontards being babies as usual. What you said was contradictory
Its dumb, you dont play AG for fair gameplay, you play it for the BS. It was fun
@@The_Natalist As if we needed any more evidence, this entire situation is just another example of Smogon not understanding the concept of "fun"
It really says something about Pokémon as a game series that the most competitively powerful things that are actively broken enough to get removed from the game tend to be not the hardest hitters, but the absurd niche gimmicks.
Liepard will forever be remembered as the Pokémon that snapped competitive like a twig so hard that the devs nerfed the trick it used out of existence.
mega rayquaza plays pokemon better than you
liepard plays prankster assists simulator 2000
Honestly though, there's no world where I would have played against revive cats twice. It's such a mind-numbing strat, that I would just forfeit at team preview.
I think its the point of the format? Why make it unacessable for others because you expected balance?
There’s unbalanced meta games and then there’s meta games that are frustrating and boring enough to make you never play the tier again.
@@maridiancrest243balance and enjoyment aren't really equivalent here, like if revive cats had a feature that after 300 turns the cats player lost a percentage of the time as to make the strategy have 50% winrate it would still be absolutely horrid to play against
@@maridiancrest243 The reason it was made unaccessible and the tier was extinguished was not because it was unbalanced. It was because revive cats was such an overwhelming combination of "overcentralizing playstyle", "unfun to play against" and "unfun in the mirror matchup" that the playerbase almost entirely vanished, and the people administrating the tier abandoned it altogether. Revive Cats just killed NDAG in a way not even baton pass chains or tera shedija could ever hope to. It's a pity, I usually like AG as a tier, but not with revive cats in them, amd banning stuff from AG just goes against the tier's entire philosophy, so all that's left is its inglorious death.
EDIT: if you think there was merit in cat hell, though, you can try to build the tier yourself. Nothing is stopping you, if you get a large enough group of miscreants to join you in the task you might eventually even manage to revive the ladder!
EDIT 2: Also, about the "balance" thing, gen 8 NatDex AG was an incredibly unbalanced tier, with all kinds of bs running around (including me with my very gimmicky full BP team), but it didn't die, because it kept enough of an active playerbase and the tiering staff didn't abandon it. Revive cats goes beyond being unbalanced, and becomes unfun, it's that simple tbh
I don't get why anyone would run this. No guard fissure Machamp is broken but it's at least fun to use
I do feel like they should have left the ladder up purely so that people complaining about bans could be told to go there and see for themselves how the game plays without them.
Normal AG still exists for that
it’s really a shame that Nat Dex AG is gone ngl. makes me excited for that Freezai ladder tho!
Can't wait to spam last respects and a full explosion/memento team!
Sooner or later Temp6t is gonna appear on Freedom cup ladder.
Its lieralty everything he ever wanted. A format where stall rained supreeme =)
freedom cup is just bss but bad tbh
AG was where you could try all the BS, just for fun. Now where am i going to use dugtrio+ durant+truant+entrainment team?
@@The_Natalistsomewhere where your opponent's can't think, because that is the only way this strategy can work.
Look, as someone who played a lot of hackmons back when sturdy shed was allowed back in gen 6-7, i can testify to just how many moves there are that absolutely shat on it. Moves like the gen 7 box art signatures, stealth rocks, spiky shield and baneful bunker, rocky helmet, destiny bond, status, sand and hail, ect. All of those both destroy sturdy shed, as well as electric wonderguard with an air balloon shed.
Hell, it even gains a weakness to gravity and thousand arrows in this case.
Do i think it should be allowed in OU? Probably not, unless sand is everywhere. Even though is an easy to counter gimmic, many of the best solutions are in ubers (i mean, necrozma dusk mane literally hardcounters it, and its a tier king)
It also ties up a very important and useful resource, and generally makes it very obvious what the shedinja player is doing.
I feel like a lot of people have forgotten how to deal with the more gimmicky playstyles that used to be commonplace, as power creep has made the game centralize more around direct offence. If you build a team without any counter to Lando-T in OU, you would expect to get absolutely shit on, but countering it isn't exactly all that difficult either. Shedinja is just a far more extreme example of this, as it always has been.
I personally think that it honestly would be fine in OU even, the only issue is that it makes everything more frustrating since the best available counters available (mold breaker pokemon, defensive status users, tyranitar, rock setters with phasing moves, _outlasting the bloody thing because it has shit offences_ , garchomp, ect, limit team creativity enough to deter people from the format.
Complete agree on this, just because something is easy to counter does not mean its fair. Having to require certain things to be 100% accounted for isn't often great.
Blud really just went like
VIDEO ABOUT SHEDINJA
"shedinja was like uhhh something i guess... anyway revive cats...."
Yeahhh it kinda ended up being a video about both
I topped the ladder in National Dex AG with ReviveCats! Fun fact - Trubbish is not a Revive Cats counter. Most good variants ran max physDef Giratina, often Tera Steel, which can phaze out Trubbish with Roar or Dragon Tail. If the Trubbish can't switch, e.g. from Ingrain Baton Pass, you can Tera Ghost Copycat Curse with one Liepard and kill it. If all else fails, Ditto can copy Trubbish repeatedly and go for successive crits or PP stall with repeated Rest to go to 1000 turns.
Yeah, the trubbish bit was mainly to reference elobandit, and because I found the wii u joke funny (Though I didn't think through how much ditto could stop it, that really hurts any semblance of a niche that trubbish has against even 5 liepard teams).
I am the one thing you cannot kill. I am Hope.
Whatever, Dream
@@maninthetrenchcoat5603 it's a reference from the same thing as some of the names in this video
@@KrazyKyle-ij9vb It's also a reference to The Sandman.
ngl i loved the shedinja and revive cats meta because i brought out porygon2 to switch into shedinja and pp stall it once i traced wonder guard, and i had triage comfey that could boost up with calm mind and sweep revivecats with giga drain to avoid contact effects and big root to stall out ditto with healing, comfey was a pretty big threat once i removed all their steel types
Trace Pory2 is genius, because it also stops the shadow tag users that don't run fighting type moves as well.
And Comfey having a niche in natdex AG is absolutely hilarious, I would use it on some of my teams that where weak to revivecats, and it was always fun sweeping those teams with a bundle of flowers.
I appreciate the names of your Liepards. You are clearly a man of culture.
I remember having to put specific counters on my Mono-Bug teams I made for Natdex AG, I had Entrainment Durant to remove Shedinja’s Wonder Guard (Which actually saved me from being swept by a Multiscale Dragonite at one point as well,) And a Crustle with Rock Blast to hit the Shed Tail Cyclizar variants before they could Tera.
I get that Nat Dex AG is the least fun metagame to play of all time, but why get rid of it? If I want to sit in my computer chair and watch paint dry for 2 hours just to finally run out of PP and Struggle to death, I should be allowed to do it. If people complain that they don’t want to watch paint dry, tell them to stop staring at the wall and play a more fun metagame.
I would argue that it was fun, and yeah, it is unfortunate that the tier was removed
It was also partially removed because of the increasing amount of generational gimmicks compounding. Things like that are very hard to develop and maintain. Every new Pokémon game adds a new gimmick now that would have to be squeezed into Nat Dex AG.
@@floofzykitty5072 I don’t understand this argument. Currently, Nat Dex OU allows Megas, Z-Moves, and Tera, which is all of the generational gimmicks. Based on your logic, wouldn’t Smogon consider dropping Nat Dex OU as well due to all of the compounding gimmicks?
Im pretty sure that the people who orginized the tier just gave up on it
Shedinja is one of my favorite pokemon of all time, when I saw people talking about it in AG I was so excited to finally use a pokemon I wish more people talked about. It never felt broken, It was a threat. it felt just like Zazcian, always something you think about when making a team. But never something to ban in it's teir. It was the Zazcain of AG. Then it was banned and I got real sad, one day maybe, hopefully Shedinja will become viable again... I still use him in OU though so-
my favorite part of the meta was when four cats in a trenchcoat died, got stuck in a well for a while, and then punched a god
I kinda think of air balloon tera shedinja like most Pure Hackmons wonder guard sets.
Theyre really simple and easier to break through, especially against shedinja of all things, but if you arent ready for it it absolutely fcks you over
Yo! I did to even realize I was watching this channel until the end. Your videos are looking a lot cleaner, glad I subscribed. Loving the content
Thanks so much! My Shedinja video was literally my first time editing, so I really had no where to go but up lol
Yeah the main problem was BP to Mega Gengar - who by itself is probably the most powerful non legendary ever created (if using natdex rules). Trapper + encore is hella busted.
Also fun thing, you can actually fit both shed and mega gengar on a revive cats team. They're not really as good as they are on non revivecats though due to movepool.
M-Gengar is prolly more broken than just about every legendary too lol. And yeah, it was a lotta fun to lose immidiently. because you clicked a fighting, normal or status move, and then got swept by a +6 Gengar.
Yeah, thats the kicker with Revivecats, it took a lot of creativity out of teambuilding.
I remember that I used sunny day on my shedinja to prevent sandstorm
It's the same thing as Sturdy Shedinja. There are counters, sure, but those counters are highly specific and can easily be shut down, and with Shedinja, you either hard counter it or you lose.
Strangely enough, because of Shedinja being so prevalent, it made it easier to stop, as everyone was prepared to stop it, and the Pokemon that can counter it are good. This meant that it was easy for teams to fit pokemon that counter Shedinja. Though, I do have to argue it isn't a hard counter or loss. Most tera types have a weakness that your team can hit, and even if you have no true counter, there are many ways to defeat Shedinja. And even if you do have a counter, Shedinja has a lot of counterplay, such as shadow tag.
Sturdy Shedinja however, has a lot less counters, so it does seem to fall more into the category of hard counter or lose.
@@blip_exists How is Shadow tag a counter? How is sturdy shedninja harder to remove than tera electric air balloon shedninja? They lose to the same stuff, don't they?
@@watery2211 Shadow tag is counterplay on the side of Shedinja, because it allows you to trap and remove your opponents pokemon that may be able to KO shedinja. And tera electric requires both an item slot and another pokemon to function, making it much weaker.
@@blip_exists It was prevalent so it didn't make it easier to stop... you were FORCED to stop it because you were almost certain to find one because it was prevalent. This also meant using one by proxy lets you influence the enemy team's options.
Moongiest beam isn’t highly specific it’s a coverage move your special attackers should be running anyway. You didn’t just want an ability ignoring move just for shedninja. You wanted to ignore unaware after boosting with geomancy/tailglow you wanted to ignore immunity abilities ect. You had ability ignoring tech because it was worth running wether or not shedninja was in the tier. If anything magic guard shedninja Is better because you are never gonna have sturdy shedninja go up against offense and do anything because of ability ignoring attacks. Having a special attacker at all or a physical steel type ( sun steel strike) isn’t highly specific most offense teams have such so the counterplay is quite common without even considering shedninja. You might screw over stall by getting a cheaky ko because of ignoring a leech seed or something if you ran magic guard though since they would assume it’s sturdy shedninja you don’t die to the passive damage then you can potentially get 2 kos with a fear set.
The best counter to this strategy is the ability mold breaker.....
The problem, as I understand, is just Showdown not taking into account various mechanics that just shouldn't work together based on the mechanics provided.
For the Divecats Revival Blessing example, Assist has never been able to call for Revival Blessing (because it's not in gen 9) but similarly has never been able to call Thief, Focus Punch, Phantom Force, Belch, Baneful Bunker, or Bestow, so allowing Assist to call Revival Blessing is clearly a mechanical incongruity that can just be coded out.
Actually, despite Assist not appearing in gen 9, there is STILL a flag in the game that determines whether moves are callable by assist or not. Revival Blessing is coded to be callable. Therefore it should be callable.
Divecats wasn't even Showdown exclusive, that was in the actual games. And also even though there is a flag, I do think that it will be changed, as it wasn't actually usable in the game. And while saying that it was in the game is a valid argument, I raise you the argument that the Hisuian pokemon that, while where in the code, were not added to the game until they were actually usable.
@@blip_exists What are they gonna do? Ignore what the game does? This is an Anything Goes tier, patching for balance reasons DEFEATS THE PURPOSE.
@@natnew32 Pretty sure every move added in gens 8 and 9 has that flag set though.
@@blip_exists the Dive part of Divecats, sure, it existed for a single generation, but my point is the AssistXRevival Blessing has literally never been available.
(And even with Dive, it was patched out after one generation)
In gen6/7 Shedinja couldn't eat, just make it so you can't use the meal to change the tera type
But nincada can eat, and it surely could pass it's tera type to both ninjask and shedinja...
@@TeruretYou could argue that since Shedinja is the discarded husk, that it instead would act like wild Pokémon do and have a random type based on its typing (so, either Bug or Ghost)
@@skeletorthebest7204 exactly
Shedinja being soley limited to bug/ghost would go a long ways in balancing it, while also allowing it to still use tera quite effectively, as it can eliminate one of the types weaknesses.
@@skeletorthebest7204 wouldn't make sense, as Shedinja copies everything from the nincada, even down to contest stats (which no wild pokemon would have) in previous gens.
There's always another secret. Love those books btw
Its so weird looking at the extreme cases like this. Makes you feel like theres always another secret. 😉
If pawmot could learn assist then we would be dealing with literal revival mice 💀
I've seen people use Leppa berry revival blessing pawmot
It's funny when i played nat dex ag messing around with my favorite guys it turns out lead Golisopod+slither wing held its ground pretty well against revive cats and cyclizar into shedinja, Was a very pleasant surprise
Revive cats when they use the move protect:
@@watery2211Protect when it’s the second use:
i actually ran mold breaker excadrill, tyranitar and tera normal lunala on every team because of shedinja in AG during gen 9
• I used to be a Balanced Hackmons casual. Played it solely since 6th to 9th grade. Sturdy Shedinja has since been banned, but I never really understood for personal reasons; I’m sure the votes, BH format board, and forum had their reasons, but I think “Sturdinja” is not that broken-quite balanced for similar and different reasons presented in this video. Sure it walls a lot of mons and you needed certain checks, it kept teams diversified in abilities and pokémon moves.
• The strategy: Usually you would run Safety Goggles or Boots, Sturdy Shedinja, with Endeavor+Priority. Goggles is pretty bad in current meta since you would rather use it as a pivot mon; so Boots would be the best option knowing stage hazards is vital for singles format. This was one of the strongest BH pivots at the time, maybe still would be. End+Priority was a diversified strat because you wouldn’t always want to use E-speed-aqua jet, bullet punch, or shadow sneak were really good examples to make up for different type coverages of teams.
• Utility strat: Aside from being nigh unkillable and best pivot. Some other strats were using Toxic/Wisp, Rapid Spin, SD Sweeper, Magic Guard (pretend to be Sturdinja), etc. These basic strats provided utility.
• Shedtail Sturdinja? Shed Tail is banned in BH, so there would be no problems. I think that move is too broken for the meta anyway, rendering almost all status moves and even attacking moves useless. Substitute Baton Pass to Sturdinja would be a good play only half the time, so it’s not always consistent, because that would like a 2 turn move, depending which may not always be the best choice.
shed was fine until gen 8, when it got boots, because it removed the single biggest piece of counterplay against shedinja. there is other counterplay, but it was banned because of it essentially forcing stuff like moongeist beam to be run instead of astral barrage and being able to be immune to other kinds of counterplay (such as via protective pads)
in short: its just too limiting in the teambuilder
(source: i was top 20 on the gen 8 bh ladder when it was available)
While I get why shedninja was banned, I still miss using them. While I found the endeavor espeed strategy boring, it fit pretty well on stall teams with its ability to become unkillable. A protect move to scout, magic coat to bounce back status, a few pressure mons in the back to whittle down the three moves that ignore abilities, and you could position shedninja to be unkillable. Shedninja was such a fun Pokémon and I will always miss it
@@JW_937 i absolutely agree that shedinja is one of the most fun and unique pokemon to use in bh, and its legality (along with megas) is one of the big reasons why i love gen 7 bh substantially more than both gen 8 and 9
@@akappaa I think they could legitimately bring back Sturdinja if Heavy Duty Boots can’t be paired with Sturdy. One of the very few cases is Sleep Talk Comatose, where a specific combination had been banned. It is Balanced Hackmons after all, anything could be changed for our own conveniency (exaggeration and low key in spite of Smogon bans). Boots, got rid of its biggest weakness. I feel like we could do something very similar to Sleep Talk Comatose, where both can’t be on a pokémon simultaneously. At the same time it doesn’t seem logical to enforce such a ban because it’s specific to Shedinja, but I think we could make a pass for it just to have fun again. If anything keep it simple as just ban Boots on Shedinja; “Boots is banned on Shedinja.”
• Sturdinja Goggles or Protective Pads: these are notably not even close to being as good as Boots. we all know stage hazards are vital in singles. So this would make Sturdinja more gimmicky or niche in the meta.
@@stealthgamer4620 in theory this is a fine idea, but in execution it sets a pretty bad precedent, as with all complex bans. they could have banned either comatose or sleep talk, but these both have individual niches which are not at all problematic, its just that when they are used in conjunction with another, it has game-breaking consequences. banning shed isnt an ideal solution, but there isnt really a better one unfortunately. honestly i would personally be fine with banning boots on shed, its possible they’ll retest it after the dlc drops. or better yet, they just dexit boots from the game so we can use sturdinja (and kill stall)
There's always another secret.
so what I'm hearing is we need another tier between AG and Ubers, right?
Ubers BL?
Nah, just axe revivecats, as assist calling revival blessing is dumb, even if it is in the code.
@@blip_exists thats what Im saying, I feel like if people will mald and say that its false AG if they ban the usage of having Assist and Revival Blessing in a team and/or make it so on showdown Assist CANNOT call revival blessing, that's better than having to remove an entire ladder that was fun to play for years or make it so any time you log on to play a quick game of showdown you risk running into a revivecats team and spend the next 2 hours if you aren't willing to forfeit
besdies I'd love to see the rise of usage with like Mold Breaker and Moldy moves in natdex AG, may make Kyurem Black more popular
@@byzantine5761 I mean, to add to your argument, why the heck can I use revive cats when I couldn't even use Havalugg, both were in the game, it would be a fairly simple justification.
And yeah, Black Kyreum stonks went up big time, putting that massive atk stat to work was a lot of fun
3:48 “oh yea and that’s trubbish” caught me off guard 💀
Now we need anything anything goes tier, in which anything goes.
why is miraidon constantly mentioned in this video as a top 3 threat and not miraidon? is it because primal groudon, kyogre, and mega ray can get rid of sun, but couldn’t get rid of e terrain?
At the time in AG, miraidon was more common than koraidon, at least from my experience.
i just used a assist imprison toxic set to full counter most revive cat strats via struggle while making the pokemon easily counter able by the rest of me team in case of a ditto struggle match
The thing is, Revivecats can counter that, Dragon Tail Giratina is a very popular choice, and would be able to stop that. Thats one of the tricky things about Revivecats, it can always adapt, but it adapts to stay exactly the same.
@@blip_existsYou can Tera Fairy.
@@dropthehatantonycraft7516 Revivecats can use ditto to then toxic your tera fairy.
Imagine making a format to hold threats that nothing else can deal with, then something running that format so hard they just delete it.
Natdex AG was a great example of why bans exist.
Holy shit a mistborn reference
I blesss your Family and all your friends Lmao
My favourite book serious of all time, currently reading the way of kings, gotta love these bangers
mistborn is pretty cool, I bought it at a bookstore. great magic systems, very well written, would recommend :D
Not the Sanderson references bro 😭
Tera Shed Tailed Air Balloon Shedinja: exists
Kid named whirlwind/mold breaker/moldy moves/stealth rocks
FR FR FR
Hear me out. Scale Shot + Swords Dance Haxorus. Everyone forgets my boy, i'm really sad. Baton pass user? immediatly swap to haxorus. Use Scale shot. It will break the subs and kill shedinja or deal a good amount of damage to whatever switches in (except a fairy, but let's continue)
Mega gengar would be damaged by scale shot and with the speed boost would be K.O'd by earthquake next turn, same for gothielle. If the enemy swaps to a fairy, just swap haxorus out, and u're fine. And the best part is that SD haxorus isn't even there just to counter shedinja, he can be a pretty solid phys. sweeper and a wallbreaker if you give him substitute too. So even against teams without shedinja he would be a solid team member, even tho there are better options.
Main issue is, Haxorus is very outclassed by Black Kyreum and Zekrom, who also have a mold-breaker like ability, while also have legendary-level stats and two stab options.
@@blip_exists im not saying they arent stronger, the point is that haxorus can be used on OU, he has a multi hit attack that boosts his speed, so its very hard to switch in when he comes on field. And im aware kyurem can use multi hits too. Im just showing one good option that works well.
@@mattheusspoo Ah ok, I thought you where talking about Natdex AG, my bad. Yeah Haxourus can work in OU, some sets can 6-0 a lot of stall comps, so it can definetly do some work!
@@blip_exists at national dex AG there are plenty of options, i thought the video was about why tera shedinja should/could be unbanned. Im just pointing out that even at UU you can have a pokemon that can beat any variants of shedinja and still be useful and strong against other things.
@@blip_exists I mean, even at OU there are some options no one seems to point out like... phasing him out? A skarmory with whirlwind can tank a +6 shedinja hit and phase him out, and even set up rocks so he doesn't come back.
sandstorm(tyranitar) will take care of the electric variant, and the steel/ground variants can be dealt with... i mean, super effective attacks, isn't hard to get one team with at least one fire, fighting or ground attack (for steel) or water, grass or ice(for ground), those are very common offensive typings.
setting up rocks will also work as long as the strat isn't used as opener
Some leads with taunt and a super effective move against shedinja will also stop him from coming in. So you can have any lead like aerodactyl, azelf, mew, even wall breaker gyarados would work taunting the lizard to not pass substitute and either follow with something super effective on shedinja if he comes in, or setting up rocks so he doesn't come in easily.
Many walls can just pp stall him too, as a last resort, since even at +6 his damage isn't impressive.
He's not overpowered or requires you to bring a useless pokemon on your team to counter, it's just what he always was, a gimmick.
I love My boy shedinja
The husk of a damn cicada bullying gods.
ok that kesler nickname brought back the infamous 1+2 vibes...
Whats 1+2?
Yes, AG is made for legendaries. Doesn't stop em from being boring.
JonTron said it best when he explained dominant stategy
Yep, when there are no bans, we get to see why bans are a thing
Remember when Mega Requyza was the only pokemon banned to Anything Goes? Good times
1:00 hollow knight music on point ❤
What kills an anything goes catagory
Literal Gods
An insect with 1hp
or a bunch of copycats
Hazards, Weather, and Mold Breaker go brrr
Thousand Arrows has left the chat
Gravity has left the chat
Gastro acid has left the chat
Sandstorm has left the chat
Infiltrator has left the chat
Stealth Rocks have left the chat
Spikes have left the chat
Trick has left the chat
Wonder Room has left the chat
TBF, most of these don't help against the standard tera shedinja shenanigans, as it almost always runs non-tera electric and boots. But gastro and sandstorm are both good options
Ghost curse has left the chat
Infiltrator Toxic Crobat goes BRRRR
caught the mistborn reference
I'm so glad I was able to play those silly teams before the tier got nuked
There needs to be a new tier: Anything Goes Lite.
There's always another secret
Shedinja’s that one meme from Red vs Blue where they’re talking about useless superpowers. Specifically, invisibility, but only while sleeping.
“Think about it, you could take naps whenever you wanted and nobody would know. I’d be unstoppable!”
“Actually, you’d be the opposite of unstoppable.”
“Totally stoppable. Already stopped.”
((Joke being that Shedinja’s unkillable because they’re already a ghost))
there’s always another secret
Roar, stealth rock, infiltrator will o wisp, mold breaker, etc
Oh shit, random Mistborn reference.
I was sent here from a Static Breeze Galpal video about a cicada husk.
Same
Took me a second to realize who you were referring to lol
There's always another secret!
The actual 5Head move would be to give it tera electric but not an air balloon, but the item that prevents sandstorm.
(7:24) Where did you get this clip from? It looks awesome.
It was the Pokedex game for the 3ds I believe
bro you didn't have to do the wii u like that 💀
I love the wii-u, but its the kinda love where I like to make fun of it.
Any mon with curse and ghost tera completely annihilated shedinja. It's really a shame this tier was banned, i loved no guard fissure Machamp
god i love brandon sanderson
I'm proud of Purrloin and Liepard.
ThAT Thumbnail got me dead LMAO
Based hollow knight OST on the background
Based Hollow Knight PFP
I liked using both these strategies
considering assist never existed at the same time as revival blessing, we never saw gamefreak programming assist to not pull off revival blessing, which I'm 100% sure they would not had let that skip by.
so Nationaldex just let assist call in any of the new moves.
National dex was the real cause the tier dissapeared
Well no, its because there was code within S/V that allowed assist to call Revival Blessing. Which isn't a perfect argument, but its also not a terrible one.
@@blip_existsBut all non-boss moves are allowed by default. It’s like saying that Gamefreak wants to make Rayquaza look like Pikachu in Gen 9 when it’s just because they never bothered to put the 3D model in yet.
@@dropthehatantonycraft7516 I mean, the pikachu's are still allowed in pure hackmons. However, I do agree that assist shouldn't call Revival Blessing, I was simply explaining why it did.
What if you wanted to use Tera Electric Air Balloon Shedinja, but Arceus said, “Stellar Tera Blast!”
>shedinja got banned somehow
...what kind of timeline is this? Did I make a wrong jump somehwere?
Tera electric shedinja when literally any mon with mold breaker/gastro acid/thousnand arrows/anything that ignores abilities comes in: *dies from cringe*
Tinkaton is one of the most popular Mold Breakers of gen-9 to the point of even memetic popularity and Shedinja _still_ left people wondering how to stop it?
Also, why tf can Assist call Recarm _(Revival Blessing)_ when the move was already given a pseudo-custom 1 ammo limit _and_ remakes can be a cue to unban old moves such as Tail Glow for Shining Pearl?
I bet even if they banned all bracelet powers from National Dex, AG was on the way out.
Tinkaton seems like it would work, until Shed baton passes into Shadow Tag Mega Gengar, and OHKO's Tinkaton. There are better mold breaker pokemon, and there was counterplay to moldbreaker.
I do agree with you its a bit wacky that assist can call revival blessing, but its because there was a flag in the code to allow it to. While assist isn't usable, it is in the code, and that was taken as reason enough.
MISTBORN YOOOOOOO
I don't understand why ANYTHING GOES is taking down the ladder though. It's literally called ANYTHING GOES. That includes being a randomized format with/without skill or pokemon of various kinds. I also don't understand why they're falling to the complaints of idiots. People are complaining about a pokemon existing in a format called ANYTHING GOES? Do they not understand the point of the format? Why humor these people? Just let them complain and be dumb.
Because at a certain point it stops being anything and becomes 1 thing or a few things.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Ok, and? That's called a "meta". Literally everything has one.
Good Think Soak, Magic Powder Exists, but it foes require a dedicated move.
I mean, there are better ways to beat Shedinja than Soak, but it is an interesting option for sure!
soak and magic powder dont work on terastalized mons
mistborn reference spotted
With entry hazards being so prevalent whats the point of banning it?
Tera shedinja would 99% of the time run HDB
The threat of turn 1 cyclizar shed tail into shedinja bypasses all hazards. Cyclizar is really fast so you'd need to use like a scarf fairy type to try and ohko it, but at that point, they can just not lead with cyclizar, while you're pretty much forced to to it to not instantly lose the game, which is very easily exploitable. U-turning into cyclizar later in the game guarantees the shed tail basically. Hell you might even run magic bounce to deny hazards entirely. Since the 2 are together so often, you're guaranteed to have consistent hazard removal on the team. Tera electric Shedinja also bypasses everything but stealth rock due to air balloon so you'd need specifically rocks
Just how many times has this cat broken the game!?
Wouldn't limited liepard and purloin to 1 have been enough?
Meowstic was also usable, meaning teams would have 3 team member, which was the amount many Revivecats teams ran anyway. And in natdex ag, you could have any number of liepard.
Blip Exists, you forgot zygarde, its signature move thousand arrows hits flying + air balloon + levitate mons
I didn't really forget Zygarde, it just wasn't as important to the conversation. Zygarde counters one certain combo, whereas stuff like moldbreaker could counter every shedinja set.
@@blip_exists oh ok
Not gonna lie, NatDex AG was kinda my last hanging shred of interest in this franchise. Between arbitrary roster culling, arbitrary movepool culling, and rules upon rules upon bans upon rules all sanitizing and pidgeonholeing the game on every level, having a chaotic format where I could beat a tryhard team of legendaries with 6 ludicolo while grooving out to miror b's theme was great. I get why they axed it, all the top ladder teams were just gimmicks vs gimmicks that went on forever, but then... I dunno, remove the ladder? If the crux of the issue boiled down to "i-its not viable for competitive!" Then don't make it, the messy format where 'anything goes', competitive in the same light as the strictly regulated normal ones, make it a solely "for fun" format for breaking the game and playing around with whatever team and setup you want.
Maybe I'm in the minority with that mindset, but I have to imagine removing the ladder would have been a better option than just outright removing the format (I know its not gonegone, but few to no one's going to want to seek people out manually to play it).
I totally agree, i only played Natdex AG because it had no dumb rules
Well the rules are not dumb but yes, natdex ag should not have been axed
Not gonna lie, I'm never gonna get over how much Smogon seems to hate complex bans.
How many mons have been banned over Tera now?
I mean, if you implement too many complex bans, Pokemon Showdown would be more and more just a fangame, instead of a battle simulator.
And while many Pokemon have been banned because of Tera, Tera is an interesting enough mechanic that it has been decided to be kept in Pokemon Showdown.
It's not even that it's a complex ban, it's just a ban. But AG by its very premise can't make balance bans.
@@blip_exists A fair point. I'm just amazed how many Mons would be fine if not for Tera.
@@psyxypher3881 Yeah, shows how many pokemon are balanced around having mid typings and coverage options.
@@blip_exists You see this a lot in Dungeons and Dragons and Yugioh, where adding new options completely and utterly breaks things because of how they interact with something else.
Idea: Shedinja can’t Terastalize. And Assist can’t call Revival Blessing.
I... don't quite understand why the assumption couldn't be made that considering the move Assist and the move Revival Blessing don't exist in the same game. Why not assume Assist wouldn't be able to call Revival Blessing? Considering they had changed Assist to no longer call moves it once did that ended up being broken
The argument made is that assist is set to call revival blessing within the games code, but I personally think its kinda dumb, as assist isn't usable in S/V.
@@blip_exists Why call it dumb?
The only other option is to have an opinion or look at things that are not the same.
Your options are literally no evidence or unused code.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 They don't decide how Showdown decides this shit. I'd recommend choosing different words
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Well, I personally think its dumb because:
1. Unused code has been incorrect before. Shadow Tag Chandelure was in the code for Black and White, but was eventually changed.
2. Other unused code (The Hisuian Pokemon) where not usable despite being in the code (While they are now usable, they where not always).
Unused code wasn't "wrong" in the Chandelure case, it was just replaced prior to being released. It was still correct (in the sense of being the truth of reality, even if it was a bug, which Showdown always attempts to simulate) at the time it existed. If Assist's behavior is changed in a patch in a future version of SV, that will be immediately reflected to ND formats on Showdown.
Hisuian mons are different because they had never been available in Sword/Shield or prior and were hence unreleased rather than dexited content, which is outside the scope of what ND includes. They weren't a balance ban, like what is being mooted in these comments, which wouldn't make sense in an AG metagame.
Smogon removing NatDex AG is idiocy on the level of Niantic nerfing remote raids in GO
what about mold breaker
Zygarde carried me through this ara of AG
yeah that's what I used because it is a good mon regardless and a handy counter
They should make an Ubers Ubers Nat dex tier which is basically just Natdex anything goes without revive cats fr fr, let my boy MRayquaza free
Don’t really get why ND AG was made challenge only. Why not just remove the ladder but leave matchmaking alone? Now if you wanna play ND AG you have to hope someone in chat is willing to play, and if there isn’t you’re just out of luck
4:00 not a wii-u
Mold Breaker ladies and gentlemen.
I gotta ask, cause it's been on my mind for a while: What are all these tiers for? I don't play Showdown, so I fail to understand some of these "bans" and formats. I'd like to be able to understand it a little better.
So, theres OU, and thats the main tier, that where basically every non box art legendary goes. However, if a pokemon is too good for OU, it gets banned to Ubers, so Ubers tends to be made up of mainly legendary pokemon, but pokemon like Excadrill have been banned to there in some games as well. There are other tiers (UU, RU and such) that are below OU, and basically, if a Pokemon isn't used in OU, it becomes usable in UU, and if it isn't used in UU, you can use it in RU, and so on.
If a Pokemon starts being used in a higher tier, it will move up to that tier, being unusable in every tier below it. However, if a pokemon is in a tier that is "lower" than another tier, say a Pokemon is in UU, you can use that Pokemon in higher tiers as well.
These stats update every 3 months I think? However, if a Pokemon is simply too strong, it can be banned from a tier, without needing the proper usage. Some strategies are also banned, because they are uncompetitive, such as baton pass.
As opposed to the other tiers, pokemon do not rise from OU to Ubers through usage, but through bans only. Hence how Great Tusk can get 50% usage.
Ubers started off as a banlist,but with the addition of Mega Rayquaza, the tier Anything Goes become more of the banlist. In anything goes, every strategy except Funbro is allowed.
Thats how the tiers work.
And for formats, Standard Play is the current generation OU, so only Pokemon that are in Scarlet and Violet. National Dex is a tier where all pokemon and many different gimmicks are allowed. National Dex anything goes is a tier and format where you can use every pokemon, and every strategy.
Hope that helps!
@blip_exists That leaves me with one other question then, and this may be dumb to ask, but how does this correspond to officially held vgc events from the Pokemon Company? Do any of these tiers and strategy bans have any relevance to the official vgc? Has Showdown influenced the official vgc in some ways, if a bit? Or is Showdown a 100% separate entity with no bearing on it?
Example: If Divecats and Baton Pass is a banned strategy in Showdown, would it also be banned in the official vgc? Or would the official vgc basically be the "anything goes" tier mentioned.
@@invertedghostgames9899 Not a dumb question at all!
Pokemon Showdown is completely distinct from the VGC events held by The Pokemon Company. Showdown is 100% separate.
VGC tends to have its own restrictions, as those typically include restricting glitches, and restricting certain pokemon (often legendarys or pokemon not in a regional pokedex). However, Pokemon games are often balanced around doubles instead of singles, so VGC tends to be a bit less broken, and less needing of bans.
Mold breaker:
Ruhehehehehe
if triage doesnt work with bitter blade i doubt assist was supposed to call revival blessing,
how to stop revivecat
step 1: find a pokemon with high attack and speed and knows mach punch
step 2: ???
step 3: success
ok i've ran calcs for a mega lucario bullet punch and it's ohko for only 252 hp but needs 2 hits for 252 def unless lucario has a nature that boosts attack then it's 56.3% chance to ohko, but running vacumn wave has a better chance of OHKOing liepard
since i forgot that revival blessing sets the revived pokemon to 50% i found out it guarantees OHKO
Step 2: Hope that revivecats isn't using rocky helmet/ditto
Though yes, this is one of the better ways of stopping Revivecats
@@blip_exists I also beleive a coil rest tera fairy espeed zygarde set can work (has to be your last mon because of roar giratina), but if they properly predict you you will get pp stalled out of espeeds and lose. because of tera fairy you win 1v1 matchups with ditto if you pack dragon claw or a similar dragon move. this is ALSO gambling the ditto isn't tera fairy XD.