You can't imagine how helpful your videos are for me and how much I love them! Coming from a Târ player who's getting to know western music and your videos help me to understand both systems better!!!❤❤❤
Please keep your videos about Arabic music coming! As a violinist I've always wanted to learn Turkish, Iranian, etc. Thanks to you I'm finally learning little by little.
Those tetrachord diagrams are definitely useful for someone used to western 12edo! For me the mode shifts created a similar feeling to a sudden modal shift in chromatic music. Awesome video!
Hello, I saw that Safi al-Din Urmawi did not develop the 17 tone system as equal temperament. I also heard you allude to a non-equal temperament. Could you go into some of the ratios Safi used for the original system? I think just intonation systems are especially harmonic. Farzad, you are doing such a service to this beautiful music system. Thank you for these videos. I will listen to Persian music and look for more knowledge on dastgah. Simply breathtaking! Other commenters please tell me about any Persian musicians or music you like!
Thanks for your compliment! Safi-ed-din Urmavi as well as a few other theorists of that time start with obtaining the neutral interval by continuation of the Pythagorean 3:2 ratio. But since the resulted intervals were rejected by the practitioners, they revised those intervals and substituted the generative ratio of 13:8 to obtain them. In that sence, the Persian 17-tone system is a combination of the Pythagorean 3-limit ratios and 13-limit ratios.
Randomly i found this old anthem and it has exciting melody. As Greek our tradition is the closer to yours. In church we use 8 modes but we can add another 4chord to the first. Also the great composers from Constantinople well knew iranian music (mahour, ferahnak, sabah...)
Cool! You're right - there're a lot of similarities between the two cultures and musics. Is there any Greek music theory/history source in which the Persian modes are mentioned?! I'm curious to know.
These lesson are wonderful! I hope to play Persian and Iraqi style oud one day. Would it be possible to have more song broken down like you did here with dastgah-e mahor, where you show the specific tetrachords being played and when they switched. Your analysis is very helpful! Moteshakeram!
Please continue teaching us Persian Music theory, I’ve always been intrigued but have never really found any solid learning materials in English(I don’t speak your language unfornately😢), thank you, subscribed! Btw, can you teach how to compose I this system?
Incredible work my friend 💙 i would love to see the scale diagrams with more juice (slightly more vibrant animations to highlight the modes) but otherewise the presentation is elegant and sufficient enough for me to follow if I use my ears more diligently.
Really amazing videos! Thank you very much! I'm learning trombone and want to learn one of the Middle Eastern approaches. Also: absolutely mindblowing tar & tombak duo at 6:20!
Coming from a Turkish/Arab music perspective, this analysis was fascinating! I'd read before in several Western commentaries that the implied finalis within the scales written down by Urmavi, Shirazi and Maraghi was the fourth degree, whereby they would make sense from the modern viewpoint and be in line with modern practice. Being so used to thinking of the tetrachord on the finalis/tonic as tetrachord 1, I initially expected that the shahed would be the equivalent of the ghammaz/güçlü (dominant). This different way of looking at the scale structure is very interesting. My initial impression, being a newcomer to Persian music, is that the conjunct arrangement, but one where some ajnas are pentachords instead of tetrachords, could perhaps have advantages. For example, instead of disturbing the scale structure by moving the disjunction tone and thereby making a fairly smooth-sounding modulation look intimidating, one could look at it as a shift from the Mahour tetrachord to a Nikriz pentachord on the shahed. After all, the implied finalis in the short modulation doesn't appear to shift to G-Chahargah, but rather stays on F, because the drone stays on F. And it uses typical Nikriz phrasing. I wonder if Nikriz is recognized as a modal entity in modern dastgah music? I'm sure that there is a reason for the theoretical system being the way it is, though. Thank you for making such an engaging presentation.
Thanks for your comment. Good observation, and I agree with you on tetrachord-pentachord conjuct combination. The song that I reviewed is only an example of the application of tetrachords. In the main Radif repertoire the modulations are more straight forward and gradual.
In paranthesis, the correct spelling of the word NikRiz that exists today in Turkish/Arabic music, is NeyRiz (It's the name of a city in the center of Iran). Probably the letter "ی (y)" is misunderstood as "ک (k)" in transliteration! That's really interesting.
@@farzadmilani Very interesting indeed. There are so many Persian terms and toponyms in Arab and Turkish music theory: Rast, Dügâh, Segâh, Çargâh, Nihavend, Isfahan, etc.
Love this topic! Please keep going through the entire dastgah! Interesting way to think about the modulations. at @7:48 changing the second tetrachord to Nava the mood sounds like Isfahan, and @8:36 changing it to Chahargah it sounds like Homayoun
I would love to try this out on my synthesizer, i.e., to put this into a quantizer. Is there a good web resource that will list tetrachord pairs using quarter-tones according to the described systems?
Of course, a chromatic keyboard only has 12 keys, not 17, but some electronic instruments allow to define microtonal custom scales. So would it be possible to play this song on a chromatic keyboard? Or would we need two different custom scales that we could switch between for different parts of the song?
So many ideas for names for the scales with 1/4 tones... ... But they're just tones! I like the Turkish word for spice. They add spice. Maybe the European common practice 12 tone system should be called bland?
Thank you for making a very technical and serious bridge between Persian and Western musical traditions. Cultures need to talk to each other.
🙏
You can't imagine how helpful your videos are for me and how much I love them! Coming from a Târ player who's getting to know western music and your videos help me to understand both systems better!!!❤❤❤
@@mojtabahosseini2632 Thanks for watching! 🙏
Please keep your videos about Arabic music coming! As a violinist I've always wanted to learn Turkish, Iranian, etc.
Thanks to you I'm finally learning little by little.
Sure! I'm happy if I succeed to make any clarity on this topic!
Those tetrachord diagrams are definitely useful for someone used to western 12edo! For me the mode shifts created a similar feeling to a sudden modal shift in chromatic music. Awesome video!
I'm happy that it helped!
Hello, I saw that Safi al-Din Urmawi did not develop the 17 tone system as equal temperament. I also heard you allude to a non-equal temperament. Could you go into some of the ratios Safi used for the original system? I think just intonation systems are especially harmonic.
Farzad, you are doing such a service to this beautiful music system. Thank you for these videos. I will listen to Persian music and look for more knowledge on dastgah. Simply breathtaking!
Other commenters please tell me about any Persian musicians or music you like!
Thanks for your compliment!
Safi-ed-din Urmavi as well as a few other theorists of that time start with obtaining the neutral interval by continuation of the Pythagorean 3:2 ratio. But since the resulted intervals were rejected by the practitioners, they revised those intervals and substituted the generative ratio of 13:8 to obtain them.
In that sence, the Persian 17-tone system is a combination of the Pythagorean 3-limit ratios and 13-limit ratios.
Randomly i found this old anthem and it has exciting melody. As Greek our tradition is the closer to yours. In church we use 8 modes but we can add another 4chord to the first. Also the great composers from Constantinople well knew iranian music (mahour, ferahnak, sabah...)
Cool! You're right - there're a lot of similarities between the two cultures and musics. Is there any Greek music theory/history source in which the Persian modes are mentioned?! I'm curious to know.
Thank you so much... Im learning persian music with a Nay and an Oud and its difficult to find content with such clear theory and explanation
🙏
Great videos! 👍🏻 You found the proper way to get deep and visually explain these concepts! Keep up the great work… 👏🏻🙌🏻
Thank you!
Lovely, thank you for the visualisation! It allows me to understand the changes and to appreciate the music better
Thanks for these videos, the bubble diagramms are hugely helpfull in trying to grasp these concepts!
Fantastic Job! Bravissimo!
Great! Thank You! I love this demonstration! سپاسگزارم
These lesson are wonderful! I hope to play Persian and Iraqi style oud one day. Would it be possible to have more song broken down like you did here with dastgah-e mahor, where you show the specific tetrachords being played and when they switched. Your analysis is very helpful! Moteshakeram!
Thanks for your comment!
Sure, I'll make more analysis videos like this one.
Please continue teaching us Persian Music theory, I’ve always been intrigued but have never really found any solid learning materials in English(I don’t speak your language unfornately😢), thank you, subscribed! Btw, can you teach how to compose I this system?
Sure! I'll make more videos about this topic.
Thanks for your comment.
@@farzadmilani thank you in advance, I’m looking forward to the vids!
Incredible work my friend 💙 i would love to see the scale diagrams with more juice (slightly more vibrant animations to highlight the modes) but otherewise the presentation is elegant and sufficient enough for me to follow if I use my ears more diligently.
🙏
Really amazing videos! Thank you very much! I'm learning trombone and want to learn one of the Middle Eastern approaches.
Also: absolutely mindblowing tar & tombak duo at 6:20!
Thanks for watching!
Excellent video! Really looking forward to the next ones!
Coming from a Turkish/Arab music perspective, this analysis was fascinating! I'd read before in several Western commentaries that the implied finalis within the scales written down by Urmavi, Shirazi and Maraghi was the fourth degree, whereby they would make sense from the modern viewpoint and be in line with modern practice. Being so used to thinking of the tetrachord on the finalis/tonic as tetrachord 1, I initially expected that the shahed would be the equivalent of the ghammaz/güçlü (dominant). This different way of looking at the scale structure is very interesting.
My initial impression, being a newcomer to Persian music, is that the conjunct arrangement, but one where some ajnas are pentachords instead of tetrachords, could perhaps have advantages. For example, instead of disturbing the scale structure by moving the disjunction tone and thereby making a fairly smooth-sounding modulation look intimidating, one could look at it as a shift from the Mahour tetrachord to a Nikriz pentachord on the shahed. After all, the implied finalis in the short modulation doesn't appear to shift to G-Chahargah, but rather stays on F, because the drone stays on F. And it uses typical Nikriz phrasing. I wonder if Nikriz is recognized as a modal entity in modern dastgah music?
I'm sure that there is a reason for the theoretical system being the way it is, though. Thank you for making such an engaging presentation.
Thanks for your comment. Good observation, and I agree with you on tetrachord-pentachord conjuct combination.
The song that I reviewed is only an example of the application of tetrachords. In the main Radif repertoire the modulations are more straight forward and gradual.
In paranthesis, the correct spelling of the word NikRiz that exists today in Turkish/Arabic music, is NeyRiz (It's the name of a city in the center of Iran). Probably the letter "ی (y)" is misunderstood as "ک (k)" in transliteration! That's really interesting.
@@farzadmilani Very interesting indeed. There are so many Persian terms and toponyms in Arab and Turkish music theory: Rast, Dügâh, Segâh, Çargâh, Nihavend, Isfahan, etc.
@@Zaphod313 How can I find you in social media?
your channel is awesome
Love this topic! Please keep going through the entire dastgah! Interesting way to think about the modulations. at @7:48 changing the second tetrachord to Nava the mood sounds like Isfahan, and @8:36 changing it to Chahargah it sounds like Homayoun
Sure! Thanks for your comment.
Yes, that's exactly true what you mentioned about the modulations.
I would love to try this out on my synthesizer, i.e., to put this into a quantizer. Is there a good web resource that will list tetrachord pairs using quarter-tones according to the described systems?
Very cool. so many questions...I really want to tie some frets on my guitar to get the half flats, any tips? I tried zip ties, and it sort of works.
Some people use "fretlets" (do not confuse it with fretless guitar), which are movable mini frets that you can put anywhere between the fixed ones.
@@farzadmilani yes I guess this is what I’m talking about abut I was trying to DIY it. I have tired fishing line also but it always called off lol
@@omarwaqar8637 Do you know Tolgahan Çoğulu? He's done a lot on microtonal guitar.
@@farzadmilani no I’ll check him out. I’m just getting into it on guitar. I play Indian sitar and guitar
@@omarwaqar8637 yo whats up Omar! cool to see ya here, hope youre well
They call the momentary changes in modes "Mod Gardi"
Of course, a chromatic keyboard only has 12 keys, not 17, but some electronic instruments allow to define microtonal custom scales. So would it be possible to play this song on a chromatic keyboard? Or would we need two different custom scales that we could switch between for different parts of the song?
Obviously, it'd be possible by retuning some of the notes on piano, but eventually you'll miss some other pitches.
How are the bordune strings of the tar tuned? For me it seems that on of them is an f but I'm not sure if there's also a c.
You should ask an instrumentalist.
But genus is from Latin….
Thanks i will write that down
So many ideas for names for the scales with 1/4 tones...
... But they're just tones!
I like the Turkish word for spice. They add spice.
Maybe the European common practice 12 tone system should be called bland?
lol it certainly feels a little bit bland after two to three centuries of extensive experimentation within just one system