Well said, and a very good video with good information. I dont remember my grandfather ever using the term Point Blank Range, but he did teach me if I zeroed a little high, I would be able to hit anything I could see in our woods..and as a kid, Grandads advice was Gospel.
Lee, I'm glad you got to hunt with your grampa. I, too , got to know one of my grampas (unfortunately the comical one) thru hunting. Still great stories but not gospel!
One of my hobbies is long range bench shooting. But, my profession is Mathematics. The two callings go well together and I’ve gathered data for every rifle and bullet I shoot. In the field, I only use the MPBR numbers. Staring down a buck is not the right time for complexity.
Kent, I agree completely with that. And I thought it was very interesting hearing your thoughts on this since you have a mathematics background. Professionally I'm a metrologist, CMM programmer, and quality engineer. It has always been a struggle for me to not get to carried away trying to over analyze everything when it comes to accuracy and hunting. And I find it very interesting that you've reached a similar conclusion.
MPBD is just common sense, but the younger generation (my grandson) is indoctrinated into perfect 100 yard zero and dialing up. He sure misses a lot of game, usually shooting over the game. "I thought I should hold over". My personal sightin is for rifles with a muzzle velocity of greater than 3000 fps, zero it at 2.5" at a 100 yards. For a muzzle velocity of less than 3000fps zero at 100 yards is 3". I played with the ballistic calculator you showed and for every rifle I own (about 15) it works extremely well for all game in South Dakota from eastern farmland to western prairies. I've told the kids many times, "put the crosshairs where ya want the bullet to hit and pull the trigger." Some lessons are hard to learn. Great vid, thanks
I watched three other videos on this subject before I saw this one, and Tom's is the first one I understood. Thank you! I've saved the Shooter's Calculator and now have a gameplan for next deer season.
As a Canadian kid, ALL my hunting and shooting was with the 303 Brit! They were the stereotypical “commonwealth” rifle. I used both a Parker Hale Lee Enfield conversion Deluxe that was my Dad’s and another Parker Hale exactly like the one you have there. I was also trained as a cadet on the Lee Enfield (way back in the day) in 303 Brit. In fact, a reserve unit in Canada known as the Rangers (not the same as your Army Rangers in anyway) still used the 303 Brit in classic military Lee Enfield rifles. They just converted to a new Tikka designed rifle in 308 Win (Tikka Arctic model I think). It’s pretty nice too! Thanks for the video.
Great videos Tom. Have used the MPBR since I bought my first .270 Win back in 1965 and read Jack O'Connor's books. Love your style and common sense approaches!
Great video sir. I'm relatively new to guns and brand new to hunting. All the other videos I've watched about this topic haven't really made sense but, you did an amazing job explaining it.
They sure do and I've used them before for ammo that didn't list the b.c. of a particular bullet on the manufactures sight. If I'm not mistaken I ran into that with Remington Corlocks before.
Tom - got humbled Thursday, had the load developed, shot pretty groups off the bench etc. Went hunting with a buddy, had to make a tough shot and shooting sticks would been great. Except I didn’t have any - and missed. Needless to say, I now have a set and practice like you hunt is on deck. He was a decent buck too - Ha! Good content always and good hunting to you!
Dang Tom!! Sorry to hear about the alpha-gal problem. I had to look it up as I'd never heard of this issue. As far as sighting in rifles, I chose to use a 200 yard zero for my .243, my .270, my .300 Win Mag and my .375 H&H. My local club has a 200 yard range that's convenient. What I found was that at 100 yards, I was about 1 1/2 or 2 inches high. At 300 yards, I was about 7 inches low and at 400 yards, about 24 inches low... for all those calibres. Easy peasy! So out to about 250 yards, it's just like point blank range. Aim at the boiler room and shoot. For over 250 yards which seldom occurs where I usually hunt, the trick is knowing distance. I used to depend on my Mark 1 human eye balls but have since gone to a proper rangefinder. Cataract surgeries do that to you. As for shots out to say 700 yards, the solution is also easy peasy. I just get 500 yards closer.
I was so nervous at 7:11 And I was so relieved that you didn’t say “the bullet climbs when it leaves the barrel.” Even though technically the projectile is going up when it leaves the barrel compared to the line of sight, I’ve gotten into knock down drag out arguments about the bullet climbing when it leaves the barrel. It’s such a common misconception.
It does climb when it leaves the barrel, it just doesn't climb relative to the bore, unless there was something weird happening with a crosswind, and I have no idea whether if there was it would be a net climb. At the end of the day it doesn't actually mater so long as you know your points of impact.
@@HondoTrailside It only climbs because the barrel is pointing on an upward angle. If the barrel is level there is no climb. It’s not physically possible.
Thanks for explaining that in such detail. I just need to break down and get some type of chronograph. Think I found a pretty good deal to go with some brass I want.
In the past it used to be a general rule of thumb for standard deer cartridges (based on 308 or 30:06) if you zeroed at 3 inches high at 100 yard you would be dead on at 200 yards and 3 inches low at 300 yards. When all the variables and limitations of measurement are considered this has always worked for me. I have always used premium ammo that is on the heavier side for caliber. I check my rifle and bullet combinations on 100, 200,& 300 yard targets with three shot groups. If my groups are centered less than one to one and a half inches off I consider them to be within my tolerance limits. I then only correct for consistent deviations when zeroing. My range estimations when hunting are not perfect and I have been off on occasions. I have been lucky and so far (I am 73) I have not lost any game or used more than one shot per animal. My grandfather was an extremely strict mentor. It is my belief that I was lucky enough to live in the last era that the American middle class will be able to hunt in. In the future only the wealthy and land owners will be able to experience hunting as a sport. Tom I know you do not need my advice but ( isn’t there always a but ) as the song goes, buy dirt and put it in a family trust. I enjoy your podcasts. Keep up the good work.
Rober, that rule is pretty close for most cartridges especially when using bullets on the heavier side for caliber. And the main thing is you actually check it at those distances. And I have to agree with you on land. Sadly I've thought the same thing about hunting eventually only being for the wealthy and land owners. Or it certainly has been going in that direction. I also agree with you about buying dirt. I've been keeping a close watch on land for sale in my area and keeping up with prices. I'm guessing the prices will be coming down soon with interest rates rising and what appears to be a recession coming our way?
Please don’t forget to enter your atmospherics, it will make a difference. I live at 600 ft elevation but hunt over 7000. The difference in drop is significant.
Not that much difference unless you are shooting over 300 yards which is what we should be shooting at to start with! I live at 100 ft and hunt at 5,000 feet so I have checked and tested with several rifles in my 60 years of reloading and collecting!
Great explenation on MPBR. Been watching for probably a couple years now, if you are searching for a topic. How about shot placements for different situations? Hope you feel better with your ailments.
I'd say it works best when you can get the bullet BC and the actual muzzle velocity of your gun. My 300 Black Out has a 16 inch barrel, but I use a suppressor and reloads. Right now I give it my best guess on MV, but I really need to run it through the chrono to see what it actually is. It is the same for my 308 with an 18 inch barrel and suppressor however I use factory loads with it and can guess a little better on the MV. Bottom line is I just need to get the chrono out and use it if I want to get an accurate Point Blank Range data for zeroing. Thanks for the info as I learn something new all the time from your videos.
270 is the best bullets for me. Shoots fast , far , and hits hard. Dropped my first elk and moose with my belgium 1970 270BAR. I try double lung them and save the heart but doesnt always work that way.
My 3006 Parker Hale using 180 grain bullets was set for 300yards. +5 inches high @100 yards . And my 243 is +3 @100 yards. My 22 irons sights get. 10 yards / 75 yards zero.
An old saying my late uncle would say to me when id try to wake him up on them cold early mornings may make u fill better. He'd say im just not that mad at them. Then he'd smile wrap back up and remind me to turn out the light. Now afternoon hunt he was there. Looking back maybe I wasn't all that mad at them either because it wasn't long after getting in the stand id be sleeping my self. Id like to think just as well as him. id wager youth played a part in that. Ive just never been one to worry about the kill that mutch. To me it was just getting out being a part of something with my father. Truth be told im at a point the only reason im worried about the hunt now is to be apart of something with my kids. To pass it all on. I tell you sometimes I think of just leaving the rifle and taking a camera instead. Just some food for thought. Just don't forget the side arm!!
After 60 years of hunting and 4 boys I couldn’t agree more! The hunting is more about who your with in the outdoors then the game even though my trigger finger still twitches when I see a big one🤔😳😂
I’m relatively young (32 yo) and have always heard the old timers tell me to zero for 100, without asking questions or understanding ballistics. Ron spomer started talking about “maximum point blank zero” in his TH-cam videos for cartridge comparisons and it was like a light bulb. I started doing these calculations and got a new 45-70 that I sighted one for 175 yards! That gives me a dead on hold for 200 yards. If I would have done a standard 100 or even 50 I would have only had a MPBR of nearly 125 yards. That’s significant and folks that don’t understand this are missing out and how many rifles get turned in for a bigger rifle simply because it wasn’t zeroed correctly?
I have to give you huge credit for basing the numbers on a 6 inch target. The experience shines through there. I also learned a lot from your information on the Creedmor. I was surprised at the comparison to the .303. I worry about people selecting their ammo based on long range performance they probably should not explore, and based on bullets that have poor construction for big game performance. I'm one of those who doesn't love MPBR. As a serious shooter, I know where my bullets hit, and I hold for them at given distances. I have never understood why people who are not prepared to do that think they are good enough to start out with major misses built into the equation. Say a guy takes that 250 yard shot he just missed by 3 inches before he does anything. All these guys going for .5 MOA groups, in this example, now have 6.5 MOA rifles. The MPBR thing reminds me of the single shot rifle. From one perspective it is the expert's gun, a person who only needs one shot. From another, it is the beginner's gun, for a person who can only be trusted to think about one shot. Knowing the MPBR for your rifle is a good tool for the expert. The rest might try getting a lot closer to the target.
I’m just wrapping my head around MPBR… does the 6 or 8 inches relate to the size of vitals on an animal? Why choose 6 and not 4 or 8 or 10? That was the one thing Tom spoke about that I didn’t understand.
I think it's more a matter of speed and simplicity rather than precision. It's good enough for hunting distances. I can see how a precision shooter would disagree.
I've been using the Non thinking man's guide to trajectory, for 30 years, or MPBR, 308 , 1.2 inches high at 50 yards, I'm in the 6 inch pipe to 267 yards, 150gr, Hornady interlock.
Trivia: about 15 years ago & my eyesight much better, I did exactly this with a Winchester M94 carbine 30-30. Williams FP rear sight. Three inches high @100 yards 150 grain Winchester Silvetip old style. With a big buck almost straight on to me I held his white throat patch from offhand virtually no wind about 9:30 AM 22 November. The single shot entered centre of chest, about 2 inches left of dead centre. Paced off distance about 260 yards. That single bullet did a huge amount of damage his chest. He took one staggering step then fell to never get up again. Cold Lake Alberta, Imperial Oilfields Area. Obviously a non active work area. He was staring right at me & I knew my drop was going to place that Silvertip right into his vitals.
Tom, Great information. Maximum point blank range is the best way to do if plan to shoot 200 yards are better. That depends on the cartridge. 200 yards may be long range for a 30-30. 270 Winchester about right. After you calculate point blank range for your rifle and ammo, you have to go to the range and verify. I just know past 300 yards , the flattest shooting cartridges start really taking a dive toward mother earth. For myself, maximum point blank range is my personal range limit. 250 yards is long range regardless of what the experts say. If you have the hardware and skill to shoot past point blank range the more power to you. I like to hunt myself. I can always get the thrill of long range shooting at paper and steel plates at the range.
All good comments. A final criteria for me is the game I’m hunting. MPBR for a prairie dog is much different than an elk. An extreme example, but you get the point. I hunt pronghorn, so I usually run a 2” high/low MPBR. This gives me some shooter error, wind, etc. for a fairly small vital zone.
Thanks for differentiating between hunting at ethical ranges and long range target shooting. Nowadays it seems many think they can hunt at the same range of steel targets.
That rack in the background, what is holding the rifle up? Did you do a build video for it as you did for your stand. I'm sure I could figure something out, but you already have! Thx
Using the Data from the Nosler Manual and given I have the 24 inch barrel (.25-06), using the 115 gr Ballistic tips (that gave me the best group) and guessing (absent a chrono) using their velocity, my MPBR would be 316 yards with a 2.15 inch 100 yd zero. Now if I only had a chrono to verify it.
With most common high-powered rifle cartridges, used on medium sized game, you can sight two inches high at 100yds and be able to aim dead on out to 250yds.
Norinco jw 105 556 red dot sight zeroed 25 yards gives a far zero of 75 yards using 55 grain fmj 223 . I want to zero it for +3 inches @ 100 yards like a scope . Shot @75 yards and held under 1moa using a 5 moa dot sight. Id be comfortable shooting this out to 300 yards with is setup. Red dot sight height is 1.5 inches above bore.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Me, too. Redfield use to be a fantastic value. I have a Nikon 2x7x32 that has been sitting on everything from shotguns to muzzle loaders to rifles. Great scope which they also no longer produce. Subtensions on the duplex are a little tight but I would never part with it. 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Could you answer a question? I recently bought a used tikka in 7rem mag (m658 I think). I really like the specs on the 7prc cartridge and I would like to "convert" this rifle. Would you do a video on this process?
You would have to change the barrel out and the cost about $400.- $600. Not worth the cost unless the 7 rem. Mag. Barrel is shit out and needing to be replaced
Tom, I just got back from the rifle range, shot a new 7mm-08 ruger american 22", loaded 1.5gr under the max charge of imr 4350. Book says I should get 2847 at max charge and 2668 at starting charge. I'm 1.5gr above starting charge and only got 2580fps. This is a 145gr bullet. Idk if this is normal? Very accurate though. I was hoping to touch 2700 today. I may buy some reloader 19 and hope to gain 300fps. Ever experienced similar dissatisfaction with printed velocities vs actual velocities?
Joshua, that's a great question and they aren't considered because they don't affect the trajectory. With gravity as backwards as this sounds ever thing falls at the same rate no matter the difference in weight. So the only thing that really affects trajectory is velocity and how aerodynamic the bullet is. And where velocity makes the difference is because everything falls at the same rate a bullet traveling fast falls at the same rate as a bullet traveling slow. So after 1 sec the drop on a fast 100gr 22 cal bullet is going to be the same as the drop on a slow 200gr 45 cal bullet but the fast 100gr bullet is going to travel further down range in that same amount of time. I hope that answered your question.
I still like light bullets in the 6mm remington the 80gr load And I started with the 87gr in the 257wb tried the 100gr to get less meat damage. Really can't tell the difference so went back to the 87gr
As the owner of a Savage 99 in .250-3000 with its 24" twist, I'm pretty well restricted to 85, 87 or 90 gr projectiles. 100gr projectiles actually pattern, rather than group, out of my rifle! 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ Unfortunately, most bullets in that lighter weight range seem to have been designed for use on varmints, but I was fortunate to come across some 85gr Winchester/Nosler Combined Technology projectiles and some 87gr Speers, which seem to dig a bit deeper without the violent expansion I've experienced with the varmint offerings. I've also taken a fallow doe with a 90gr Sierra HPBT and she was DRT with little meat damage from a high shoulder shot.
@@charlesbertram986 I think the 87 gr speer is what the 87gr 257wb uses in its factory loads. The reason it causes so much damage at close range is factory speed up at 3800fps. I use it hunting over big fields .
Tom, just so I understand what you are saying in this video: you are not actually ZEROING your rifle at 100 yards but for a MPR (maximum point blank range) for 6", meaning that the rifle is actually zeroed at 23 yards and again at 215 yards respectively? And you are actually 'high' about 2.83" at 100 yards? You accomplish this by using the MBR calculator and setting the bullet to hit ABOVE the 100 yard bullseye by that amount?
The advantage to BC not touched on here is the decrease in wind deflection. For someone that hunts out west or in open areas with a lot of wind, less wind deflection is a big deal. It’s a lot easier to account for bullet drop than wind speed.
I did use the see thru rings on some rifles years ago but now I just use regular rings to keep the scope lower. But I do have quick detach rings on a couple of rifles just in case. But honestly my eyes have gotten so bad especially in low light that I'm not sure how useful irons would be now, but I still prefer a rifle have them just in case!
You mentioned deducting 50 fps from ammo manufacturers velocity number if running a 22 inch barrel and 30 fps if running a 24 inch barrel. What if I am running a 20 inch barrel?
MrLee, my guess is you've got 20 or 25 moa bases on that rifle? Shims might work but my advice would be to change the bases or get a scope with more travel.
There are methods for using the crosshairs and how the size of the target looks in a scope in order to judge distance. In the manual that comes with most scopes there are instructions that explain such techniques, and plenty of youtube videos that do so as well. Another is to learn how to estimate distance based on experience. That is done by practicing the ranging of objects at various unknown distances, and then comparing how close that estimate is to the actual distance. Historically, the military used a mechanical range finder such as during the American Civil War. A youtube channel called capandball has a video titled Civil War range finders and Their Repro that discusses some of their history and how they work.
Scott, I use a range finder to find an object in the distance right at my maximum point blank range. After that I can shoot anything this side of that object and I'll let anything walk past that. And depending on the situation I might be able to range an animal and make elevation adjustments or use the marks in the scopes reticle to reach out further? But plan A is always to use MPBR just because for me it's the most reliable.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Makes sense, Tom, for stand hunting. I don’t believe the previous poster’s assertion that accurate range can be determined by viewing an animal in a scope with hash-marks on the reticle, because animals vary in size.
Here in middle Georgia the woods are so thick. I don't know anyone who has shot a deer over 100yds. MPBR is dependent on your hunting environment. Let's not forget about remaining bullet energy, too.
To much to understand just sight your 270 winchester 2 inches high at 100 yards and devastate anything that walks out to 440 take it from a pro that’s all you need to do.
I haven't watched this video yet. But I'm going to comment on it and see if I'm right from the get go. If you're going to shoot up to 300 yards with the common caliber capable of killing at that range sight in 1-1/2 " high and your going to hit vitals. If you're shooting past that you always have time to dial up the turret's. Learn how to shoot that far by practice and buy 1- a range finder 2- buy a chronograph and 3- buy a scope that has the capability to accurately adjust in moa or mill and learn how to use it. Beyond that be truthful about your shooting capability under stress and the environment.
My complaint is and always has been if you want to hunt with primitive weapons it should be in the regular rifle season. Their should not be any special season for each type weapon. I hunted deer with a hand gun in PA. there was not any special season and yes, I harvested deer right along with the riflemen. Special seasons are a bunch of crap because primitive weapons of today are not primitive . They are just as accurate and lethal as any rifle.
@@rickpowell7550 yes,yes,yes, I have shot one. Like any other firearm ( rifle) use it within its intended range and it is accurate ( 100 yds. or less ) you can take a deer.
I only use that antiquated MPBR for my 30-30 and 45-70 and their limited range use. Today we have chronographs, ballistic days profiles, proper bullets, ranging equipment, and optics that weren't available a few decades ago. If an person is going to use an higher performance cartridge it's now best to use an predetermined sight in range like perhaps 200yds and then have an optic you can dial in an shooting sight solution or use the corresponding reticle values for sight solutions. With today's rifles and tools there's an lot more capability.
The diagram is completely wrong. The ballistic information only partially so. A projectile NEVER rises after leaving the barrel. It enters a drooping arc with the droop getting worse the further out it goes. The sights simply "look through" this arc. The center one of the bore is referred to as "line of departure". While the projectile is in the barrel the center of form of the projectile coincides with the center of the bore (line of departure). The instant the projectile is no longer supported by the barrel it drops below the "line departure" and never again coincides with it. The projectile enters this drooping arc and continuously falls toward the earth--drooping more as the distance from the barrel increases. Beyond 300 yards or so the arc droops even more. At 400 yards most projectiles are around four feet below the center of the bore and at 500 yards--sixty inches or more depending on velocity and projectile weight.
"Maximum point blank", point blank means there's no distance...thats what blank means. If your a foot away, your a foot away, not point blank. At least give your language a little effort.
Mickey, I could say the same to you about your language. Look up what the term "point blank" actually means, then watch the video, and then let me know where I misspoke.
I think you need to get out a little more their young fella! Been collecting reloading and hunting for just over 60 years and found sometimes if you keep your mouth shut you just might learn something 🤔😳
Well said, and a very good video with good information. I dont remember my grandfather ever using the term Point Blank Range, but he did teach me if I zeroed a little high, I would be able to hit anything I could see in our woods..and as a kid, Grandads advice was Gospel.
Lee, I'm glad you got to hunt with your grampa. I, too , got to know one of my grampas (unfortunately the comical one) thru hunting. Still great stories but not gospel!
Now I finally understand why we Zeroed at 25 meters (~37 yards) in the Army. Thank you!
One of my hobbies is long range bench shooting. But, my profession is Mathematics. The two callings go well together and I’ve gathered data for every rifle and bullet I shoot. In the field, I only use the MPBR numbers. Staring down a buck is not the right time for complexity.
Kent, I agree completely with that. And I thought it was very interesting hearing your thoughts on this since you have a mathematics background. Professionally I'm a metrologist, CMM programmer, and quality engineer. It has always been a struggle for me to not get to carried away trying to over analyze everything when it comes to accuracy and hunting. And I find it very interesting that you've reached a similar conclusion.
MPBD is just common sense, but the younger generation (my grandson) is indoctrinated into perfect 100 yard zero and dialing up. He sure misses a lot of game, usually shooting over the game. "I thought I should hold over". My personal sightin is for rifles with a muzzle velocity of greater than 3000 fps, zero it at 2.5" at a 100 yards. For a muzzle velocity of less than 3000fps zero at 100 yards is 3". I played with the ballistic calculator you showed and for every rifle I own (about 15) it works extremely well for all game in South Dakota from eastern farmland to western prairies. I've told the kids many times, "put the crosshairs where ya want the bullet to hit and pull the trigger." Some lessons are hard to learn. Great vid, thanks
It’s always worked for me! For most hunters they shouldn’t be shooting past point blank anyway!
agreed just go to the range and watch.
Most hunters buy a box of ammo and use that same box of ammo for 6 seasons .
@@Dcm193 Whats wrong with that?
@@LF12468 lack of practice
I watched three other videos on this subject before I saw this one, and Tom's is the first one I understood. Thank you! I've saved the Shooter's Calculator and now have a gameplan for next deer season.
As a Canadian kid, ALL my hunting and shooting was with the 303 Brit! They were the stereotypical “commonwealth” rifle. I used both a Parker Hale Lee Enfield conversion Deluxe that was my Dad’s and another Parker Hale exactly like the one you have there. I was also trained as a cadet on the Lee Enfield (way back in the day) in 303 Brit. In fact, a reserve unit in Canada known as the Rangers (not the same as your Army Rangers in anyway) still used the 303 Brit in classic military Lee Enfield rifles. They just converted to a new Tikka designed rifle in 308 Win (Tikka Arctic model I think). It’s pretty nice too! Thanks for the video.
Canada 🤮
Great videos Tom. Have used the MPBR since I bought my first .270 Win back in 1965 and read Jack O'Connor's books. Love your style and common sense approaches!
Great video sir. I'm relatively new to guns and brand new to hunting. All the other videos I've watched about this topic haven't really made sense but, you did an amazing job explaining it.
MIDWAYUSA lists the info on most of the ammo they sell. That’s one place I’ll check
They sure do and I've used them before for ammo that didn't list the b.c. of a particular bullet on the manufactures sight. If I'm not mistaken I ran into that with Remington Corlocks before.
Good job explaining p.b. thanks again and have a great day today and a better day tomorrow
Great video Tom. Your content is very much appreciated sir.
Very well explained and focused to hunting requirements.
Thanks Tom. Great information and explanation..
Been kinda doing this without knowing it for years. Thanks for the info now I can fine tune it and be even more effective. Thanks again
Outstanding presentation.
Tom - got humbled Thursday, had the load developed, shot pretty groups off the bench etc. Went hunting with a buddy, had to make a tough shot and shooting sticks would been great. Except I didn’t have any - and missed. Needless to say, I now have a set and practice like you hunt is on deck. He was a decent buck too - Ha! Good content always and good hunting to you!
Thanks Tom. Just set the max pbr for my 30-06 and .223. Anything to 275 yards is in trouble
Thanks for that, Tom. That's a very insightful, yet easy to understand explanation. That Enfield is looking sharp, BTW.
Thanks Garth!
Dang Tom!! Sorry to hear about the alpha-gal problem. I had to look it up as I'd never heard of this issue.
As far as sighting in rifles, I chose to use a 200 yard zero for my .243, my .270, my .300 Win Mag and my .375 H&H. My local club has a 200 yard range that's convenient. What I found was that at 100 yards, I was about 1 1/2 or 2 inches high. At 300 yards, I was about 7 inches low and at 400 yards, about 24 inches low... for all those calibres. Easy peasy! So out to about 250 yards, it's just like point blank range. Aim at the boiler room and shoot. For over 250 yards which seldom occurs where I usually hunt, the trick is knowing distance. I used to depend on my Mark 1 human eye balls but have since gone to a proper rangefinder. Cataract surgeries do that to you.
As for shots out to say 700 yards, the solution is also easy peasy. I just get 500 yards closer.
LOL, getting closer tends to make everything so much simpler!
I was so nervous at 7:11
And I was so relieved that you didn’t say “the bullet climbs when it leaves the barrel.”
Even though technically the projectile is going up when it leaves the barrel compared to the line of sight, I’ve gotten into knock down drag out arguments about the bullet climbing when it leaves the barrel. It’s such a common misconception.
It does climb when it leaves the barrel, it just doesn't climb relative to the bore, unless there was something weird happening with a crosswind, and I have no idea whether if there was it would be a net climb. At the end of the day it doesn't actually mater so long as you know your points of impact.
@@HondoTrailside It only climbs because the barrel is pointing on an upward angle. If the barrel is level there is no climb. It’s not physically possible.
🤦♂️
The most important thing is know your point of impact at which yardage you are shooting at! Gravity will do the rest!
Thanks for explaining that in such detail. I just need to break down and get some type of chronograph. Think I found a pretty good deal to go with some brass I want.
Great explanation
More knowledge and wisdom in this video than in 2 years of Backfire combined.
Aww did Mr.Backfire hurt your lil feelings because he talked about something you didn't agree with? 😢 😭 😂🤡
In the past it used to be a general rule of thumb for standard deer cartridges (based on 308 or 30:06) if you zeroed at 3 inches high at 100 yard you would be dead on at 200 yards and 3 inches low at 300 yards. When all the variables and limitations of measurement are considered this has always worked for me. I have always used premium ammo that is on the heavier side for caliber. I check my rifle and bullet combinations on 100, 200,& 300 yard targets with three shot groups. If my groups are centered less than one to one and a half inches off I consider them to be within my tolerance limits. I then only correct for consistent deviations when zeroing. My range estimations when hunting are not perfect and I have been off on occasions. I have been lucky and so far (I am 73) I have not lost any game or used more than one shot per animal. My grandfather was an extremely strict mentor. It is my belief that I was lucky enough to live in the last era that the American middle class will be able to hunt in. In the future only the wealthy and land owners will be able to experience hunting as a sport. Tom I know you do not need my advice but ( isn’t there always a but ) as the song goes, buy dirt and put it in a family trust. I enjoy your podcasts. Keep up the good work.
Rober, that rule is pretty close for most cartridges especially when using bullets on the heavier side for caliber. And the main thing is you actually check it at those distances.
And I have to agree with you on land. Sadly I've thought the same thing about hunting eventually only being for the wealthy and land owners. Or it certainly has been going in that direction. I also agree with you about buying dirt. I've been keeping a close watch on land for sale in my area and keeping up with prices. I'm guessing the prices will be coming down soon with interest rates rising and what appears to be a recession coming our way?
Please don’t forget to enter your atmospherics, it will make a difference. I live at 600 ft elevation but hunt over 7000. The difference in drop is significant.
Not that much difference unless you are shooting over 300 yards which is what we should be shooting at to start with! I live at 100 ft and hunt at 5,000 feet so I have checked and tested with several rifles in my 60 years of reloading and collecting!
I hate when people say the bullet starts falling after it gets to highest point....the bullet starts falling the moment it leave the barrel
Great explenation on MPBR. Been watching for probably a couple years now, if you are searching for a topic. How about shot placements for different situations? Hope you feel better with your ailments.
Good n simple info thanks
I'd say it works best when you can get the bullet BC and the actual muzzle velocity of your gun. My 300 Black Out has a 16 inch barrel, but I use a suppressor and reloads. Right now I give it my best guess on MV, but I really need to run it through the chrono to see what it actually is. It is the same for my 308 with an 18 inch barrel and suppressor however I use factory loads with it and can guess a little better on the MV. Bottom line is I just need to get the chrono out and use it if I want to get an accurate Point Blank Range data for zeroing. Thanks for the info as I learn something new all the time from your videos.
Thank you.
Great information, Tom! I was trying to explain some of this the other day and couldn't explain it nearly as well.
270 is the best bullets for me. Shoots fast , far , and hits hard. Dropped my first elk and moose with my belgium 1970 270BAR. I try double lung them and save the heart but doesnt always work that way.
My 3006 Parker Hale using 180 grain bullets was set for 300yards. +5 inches high @100 yards . And my 243 is +3 @100 yards. My 22 irons sights get. 10 yards / 75 yards zero.
Outstanding info. thanks for sharing Tom. What a gorgeous rifle.
Good video!
An old saying my late uncle would say to me when id try to wake him up on them cold early mornings may make u fill better. He'd say im just not that mad at them. Then he'd smile wrap back up and remind me to turn out the light. Now afternoon hunt he was there. Looking back maybe I wasn't all that mad at them either because it wasn't long after getting in the stand id be sleeping my self. Id like to think just as well as him. id wager youth played a part in that. Ive just never been one to worry about the kill that mutch. To me it was just getting out being a part of something with my father. Truth be told im at a point the only reason im worried about the hunt now is to be apart of something with my kids. To pass it all on. I tell you sometimes I think of just leaving the rifle and taking a camera instead.
Just some food for thought.
Just don't forget the side arm!!
After 60 years of hunting and 4 boys I couldn’t agree more! The hunting is more about who your with in the outdoors then the game even though my trigger finger still twitches when I see a big one🤔😳😂
I’m relatively young (32 yo) and have always heard the old timers tell me to zero for 100, without asking questions or understanding ballistics. Ron spomer started talking about “maximum point blank zero” in his TH-cam videos for cartridge comparisons and it was like a light bulb. I started doing these calculations and got a new 45-70 that I sighted one for 175 yards! That gives me a dead on hold for 200 yards. If I would have done a standard 100 or even 50 I would have only had a MPBR of nearly 125 yards. That’s significant and folks that don’t understand this are missing out and how many rifles get turned in for a bigger rifle simply because it wasn’t zeroed correctly?
You are spot on with that Jack!
I have to give you huge credit for basing the numbers on a 6 inch target. The experience shines through there. I also learned a lot from your information on the Creedmor. I was surprised at the comparison to the .303. I worry about people selecting their ammo based on long range performance they probably should not explore, and based on bullets that have poor construction for big game performance.
I'm one of those who doesn't love MPBR. As a serious shooter, I know where my bullets hit, and I hold for them at given distances. I have never understood why people who are not prepared to do that think they are good enough to start out with major misses built into the equation. Say a guy takes that 250 yard shot he just missed by 3 inches before he does anything. All these guys going for .5 MOA groups, in this example, now have 6.5 MOA rifles.
The MPBR thing reminds me of the single shot rifle. From one perspective it is the expert's gun, a person who only needs one shot. From another, it is the beginner's gun, for a person who can only be trusted to think about one shot. Knowing the MPBR for your rifle is a good tool for the expert. The rest might try getting a lot closer to the target.
I’m just wrapping my head around MPBR… does the 6 or 8 inches relate to the size of vitals on an animal? Why choose 6 and not 4 or 8 or 10? That was the one thing Tom spoke about that I didn’t understand.
@@VikingocazarThe target size can be any size you want.
I think it's more a matter of speed and simplicity rather than precision. It's good enough for hunting distances. I can see how a precision shooter would disagree.
Great content Tom! From a fellow Tom!
I've been using the Non thinking man's guide to trajectory, for 30 years, or MPBR, 308 , 1.2 inches high at 50 yards, I'm in the 6 inch pipe to 267 yards, 150gr, Hornady interlock.
Trivia: about 15 years ago & my eyesight much better, I did exactly this with a Winchester M94 carbine 30-30. Williams FP rear sight.
Three inches high @100 yards 150 grain Winchester Silvetip old style.
With a big buck almost straight on to me I held his white throat patch from offhand virtually no wind about 9:30 AM 22 November. The single shot entered centre of chest, about 2 inches left of dead centre. Paced off distance about 260 yards. That single bullet did a huge amount of damage his chest. He took one staggering step then fell to never get up again. Cold Lake Alberta, Imperial Oilfields Area. Obviously a non active work area. He was staring right at me & I knew my drop was going to place that Silvertip right into his vitals.
Tom, Great information. Maximum point blank range is the best way to do if plan to shoot 200 yards are better. That depends on the cartridge. 200 yards may be long range for a 30-30. 270 Winchester about right. After you calculate point blank range for your rifle and ammo, you have to go to the range and verify. I just know past 300 yards , the flattest shooting cartridges start really taking a dive toward mother earth. For myself, maximum point blank range is my personal range limit. 250 yards is long range regardless of what the experts say. If you have the hardware and skill to shoot past point blank range the more power to you. I like to hunt myself. I can always get the thrill of long range shooting at paper and steel plates at the range.
All good comments. A final criteria for me is the game I’m hunting. MPBR for a prairie dog is much different than an elk. An extreme example, but you get the point. I hunt pronghorn, so I usually run a 2” high/low MPBR. This gives me some shooter error, wind, etc. for a fairly small vital zone.
Thanks for differentiating between hunting at ethical ranges and long range target shooting. Nowadays it seems many think they can hunt at the same range of steel targets.
That rack in the background, what is holding the rifle up? Did you do a build video for it as you did for your stand. I'm sure I could figure something out, but you already have! Thx
Using the Data from the Nosler Manual and given I have the 24 inch barrel (.25-06), using the 115 gr Ballistic tips (that gave me the best group) and guessing (absent a chrono) using their velocity, my MPBR would be 316 yards with a 2.15 inch 100 yd zero. Now if I only had a chrono to verify it.
With most common high-powered rifle cartridges, used on medium sized game, you can sight two inches high at 100yds and be able to aim dead on out to 250yds.
That’s the Key It’s simple. And it. Works. With reasonable hunting. Rangers. 2. Seconds. To take your shot.
You look and sound like the younger version of "The Oldman" from Pawn Stars.
Norinco jw 105 556 red dot sight zeroed 25 yards gives a far zero of 75 yards using 55 grain fmj 223 . I want to zero it for +3 inches @ 100 yards like a scope . Shot @75 yards and held under 1moa using a 5 moa dot sight. Id be comfortable shooting this out to 300 yards with is setup. Red dot sight height is 1.5 inches above bore.
Great setup on your 303, Tom.
I love the FOV the 2x7x32 scope gives for practical hunting ranges. Which one do you have there?
Hi Ray, it's a Refield Revolution. I love these scopes and I really hate Leupold sold off the Redfield line.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving
Me, too. Redfield use to be a fantastic value.
I have a Nikon 2x7x32 that has been sitting on everything from shotguns to muzzle loaders to rifles. Great scope which they also no longer produce. Subtensions on the duplex are a little tight but I would never part with it. 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Could you answer a question? I recently bought a used tikka in 7rem mag (m658 I think). I really like the specs on the 7prc cartridge and I would like to "convert" this rifle. Would you do a video on this process?
You would have to change the barrel out and the cost about $400.- $600. Not worth the cost unless the 7 rem. Mag. Barrel is shit out and needing to be replaced
Tom, I just got back from the rifle range, shot a new 7mm-08 ruger american 22", loaded 1.5gr under the max charge of imr 4350. Book says I should get 2847 at max charge and 2668 at starting charge. I'm 1.5gr above starting charge and only got 2580fps. This is a 145gr bullet. Idk if this is normal? Very accurate though. I was hoping to touch 2700 today. I may buy some reloader 19 and hope to gain 300fps. Ever experienced similar dissatisfaction with printed velocities vs actual velocities?
I'm certainly sorry to hear of your condition, I've never heard of it
Great video sir. One question why are the values for bullet weight and caliber not considered considered in the calculator?
Joshua, that's a great question and they aren't considered because they don't affect the trajectory. With gravity as backwards as this sounds ever thing falls at the same rate no matter the difference in weight. So the only thing that really affects trajectory is velocity and how aerodynamic the bullet is. And where velocity makes the difference is because everything falls at the same rate a bullet traveling fast falls at the same rate as a bullet traveling slow. So after 1 sec the drop on a fast 100gr 22 cal bullet is going to be the same as the drop on a slow 200gr 45 cal bullet but the fast 100gr bullet is going to travel further down range in that same amount of time. I hope that answered your question.
I still like light bullets in the 6mm remington the 80gr load
And I started with the 87gr in the 257wb tried the 100gr to get less meat damage. Really can't tell the difference so went back to the 87gr
As the owner of a Savage 99 in .250-3000 with its 24" twist, I'm pretty well restricted to 85, 87 or 90 gr projectiles. 100gr projectiles actually pattern, rather than group, out of my rifle! 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ Unfortunately, most bullets in that lighter weight range seem to have been designed for use on varmints, but I was fortunate to come across some 85gr Winchester/Nosler Combined Technology projectiles and some 87gr Speers, which seem to dig a bit deeper without the violent expansion I've experienced with the varmint offerings. I've also taken a fallow doe with a 90gr Sierra HPBT and she was DRT with little meat damage from a high shoulder shot.
@@charlesbertram986 I think the 87 gr speer is what the 87gr 257wb uses in its factory loads.
The reason it causes so much damage at close range is factory speed up at 3800fps.
I use it hunting over big fields .
Tom, just so I understand what you are saying in this video: you are not actually ZEROING your rifle at 100 yards but for a MPR (maximum point blank range) for 6", meaning that the rifle is actually zeroed at 23 yards and again at 215 yards respectively? And you are actually 'high' about 2.83" at 100 yards? You accomplish this by using the MBR calculator and setting the bullet to hit ABOVE the 100 yard bullseye by that amount?
The advantage to BC not touched on here is the decrease in wind deflection. For someone that hunts out west or in open areas with a lot of wind, less wind deflection is a big deal. It’s a lot easier to account for bullet drop than wind speed.
I just sight in 2 inches high at 100 and my main rifle has range compensation in scope.
Is your scope set up, so you could you use your iron sights too, like some of the old rifles?
I did use the see thru rings on some rifles years ago but now I just use regular rings to keep the scope lower. But I do have quick detach rings on a couple of rifles just in case. But honestly my eyes have gotten so bad especially in low light that I'm not sure how useful irons would be now, but I still prefer a rifle have them just in case!
You mentioned deducting 50 fps from ammo manufacturers velocity number if running a 22 inch barrel and 30 fps if running a 24 inch barrel. What if I am running a 20 inch barrel?
Then subtract 70
that is a big difference? 2610 vs 2690?
6.5 prc.. shooting high at 100yds no down clicks left on scope.. is shimming the solution?
MrLee, my guess is you've got 20 or 25 moa bases on that rifle? Shims might work but my advice would be to change the bases or get a scope with more travel.
If you don’t have time to use a laser range finder, how do you know the distance to your target?
There are methods for using the crosshairs and how the size of the target looks in a scope in order to judge distance. In the manual that comes with most scopes there are instructions that explain such techniques, and plenty of youtube videos that do so as well. Another is to learn how to estimate distance based on experience. That is done by practicing the ranging of objects at various unknown distances, and then comparing how close that estimate is to the actual distance.
Historically, the military used a mechanical range finder such as during the American Civil War. A youtube channel called capandball has a video titled Civil War range finders and Their Repro that discusses some of their history and how they work.
Scott, I use a range finder to find an object in the distance right at my maximum point blank range. After that I can shoot anything this side of that object and I'll let anything walk past that. And depending on the situation I might be able to range an animal and make elevation adjustments or use the marks in the scopes reticle to reach out further? But plan A is always to use MPBR just because for me it's the most reliable.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Makes sense, Tom, for stand hunting. I don’t believe the previous poster’s assertion that accurate range can be determined by viewing an animal in a scope with hash-marks on the reticle, because animals vary in size.
You can donate the meat, that way you can enjoy hunting & help people out.
Here in middle Georgia the woods are so thick. I don't know anyone who has shot a deer over 100yds. MPBR is dependent on your hunting environment. Let's not forget about remaining bullet energy, too.
To much to understand just sight your 270 winchester 2 inches high at 100 yards and devastate anything that walks out to 440 take it from a pro that’s all you need to do.
Tom, I give my deer to family's that are old and can't hunt anymore.
I haven't watched this video yet. But I'm going to comment on it and see if I'm right from the get go. If you're going to shoot up to 300 yards with the common caliber capable of killing at that range sight in 1-1/2 " high and your going to hit vitals. If you're shooting past that you always have time to dial up the turret's. Learn how to shoot that far by practice and buy 1- a range finder 2- buy a chronograph and 3- buy a scope that has the capability to accurately adjust in moa or mill and learn how to use it. Beyond that be truthful about your shooting capability under stress and the environment.
Tom, if you need somewhere to get rid of that nasty deer meat , I guess I could take some of it off your hands.
My complaint is and always has been if you want to hunt with primitive weapons it should be in the regular rifle season. Their should not be any special season for each type weapon. I hunted deer with a hand gun in PA. there was not any special season and yes, I harvested deer right along with the riflemen. Special seasons are a bunch of crap because primitive weapons of today are not primitive . They are just as accurate and lethal as any rifle.
Never shot one I'm thinking. Try a flint lock and get back to me.
@@rickpowell7550 yes,yes,yes, I have shot one. Like any other firearm ( rifle) use it within its intended range and it is accurate ( 100 yds. or less ) you can take a deer.
I only use that antiquated MPBR for my 30-30 and 45-70 and their limited range use.
Today we have chronographs, ballistic days profiles, proper bullets, ranging equipment, and optics that weren't available a few decades ago.
If an person is going to use an higher performance cartridge it's now best to use an predetermined sight in range like perhaps 200yds and then have an optic you can dial in an shooting sight solution or use the corresponding reticle values for sight solutions. With today's rifles and tools there's an lot more capability.
The diagram is completely wrong. The ballistic information only partially so. A projectile NEVER rises after leaving the barrel. It enters a drooping arc with the droop getting worse the further out it goes. The sights simply "look through" this arc. The center one of the bore is referred to as "line of departure". While the projectile is in the barrel the center of form of the projectile coincides with the center of the bore (line of departure). The instant the projectile is no longer supported by the barrel it drops below the "line departure" and never again coincides with it. The projectile enters this drooping arc and continuously falls toward the earth--drooping more as the distance from the barrel increases. Beyond 300 yards or so the arc droops even more. At 400 yards most projectiles are around four feet below the center of the bore and at 500 yards--sixty inches or more depending on velocity and projectile weight.
"Maximum point blank", point blank means there's no distance...thats what blank means. If your a foot away, your a foot away, not point blank. At least give your language a little effort.
Mickey, I could say the same to you about your language. Look up what the term "point blank" actually means, then watch the video, and then let me know where I misspoke.
I think you need to get out a little more their young fella! Been collecting reloading and hunting for just over 60 years and found sometimes if you keep your mouth shut you just might learn something 🤔😳
Just zero the damn thing at desired range and practice practice practice using mil or bdc and your good to drop any deer, taliban, or ex wife. 👍🏿